#I GUESS MAYBE WE'RE NOT GETTING QUEERBAITED

[astro-nautics]

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[sexy-sapphic-sorcerer]

some iconic quotes from the podcast 'bait' about merthur

"if we're taking queerbaiting as representation, which we are, Morgana is a much better queer figure than Merlin is"

"Merlin's whole thing is 'if I stay closeted long enough and keep on supporting my oppressor, then maybe, maaaybe one day his son will love me'"

"the show ends with Merlin living in the present day still waiting for Arthur to rise again and maybe fuck him this time"

"because he's immortal, Merlin could have called the cops on Stonewall"

"Merlin in the present day is probably some Arthurian scholar and is absolutely insufferable" "writing really erotic– have you ever read an academic essay by someone who wants to fuck the historical figure they're talking about? that's what Merlin is doing"

"my favourite merthur fanfic trope is Uther will consistently be like, 'Arthur it's ok that you're having sex with a man because at least you're not going to get any bastards but you can't have sex with a sorcerer'. like, no it's the same thing! you don't understand the show you're watching"

"Arthur is like 'if you're a sorcerer Merlin, I guess that's okay, I just don't believe your kind should have rights'. he's one of those people that's like 'it's fine if you're a homosexual but I still think it's a sin'"

[frasier-crane-style]

Twisters

Not much to say about this. The original was a definitive three-star movie, and this one doesn't really go up or down. It's maybe half a star worse because the effects are ironically less convincingly; in the original, they drove through a real house! Here, while the CGI may be better, it's clear that's pretty much all they're doing. It'd be nice to see something beyond rain machines and greenscreen.

It's also a prime example of Everyone Is Perfect And Nobody's Horny. Bill Paxton in the original might've been handsome, but he wasn't a zero-percent-body-fat heartthrob. Here, as in the Roadhouse reboot, every single character from hero to villain to sidekicks looks like the lead of a CW show. It just goes to show we're really cooked as far as character actors go. Twister Singular had Alan Ruck and Philip Seymour Hoffman as eccentric storm chasers. Twister Plural has sexpot Katy O'Brian.

But hey, she has boyishly short hair! There's no way she's conventionally attractive!

There's another girl who smiles in a way that makes it seem like she doesn't have teeth, but that's it. She really does have teeth (perfectly white and straight, natch). But they talk with Southern accents and say 'woo!' a lot, so I guess they really are a ragtag bunch of misfits.

And Roadhouse Rebooted at least had an actual romance. This movie has the oddest love story where they go through all the motions of a romance--he teases her, she teases him, they start spending time together, gazing fondly at each other, saving each other's lives, climaxing in Glen Powell running through an airport to stop Tornado Lady (she has one of those British names with extra surnames) before she can get on her plane... so he can stare warmly into her eyes.

What is this, are the gays getting revenge for queerbaiting? Because they know that's all in their heads, right? Hollywood just sometimes makes movies about two guys who are friends despite both of them being handsome.

And I know you're going to say hurgle burgle Fury Road men and women can just be friends! Yeah, but you don't have to write them in the most overt love story imaginable and then go "Oh, but they don't kiss at the end! It's a twist!" What are you, Rian Johnson? Fuck off.

Apparently the official explanation is that they want to make a sequel and so they're going to drag the love story out into that and you can see why I think the first movie is better, because they just wrapped everything up and didn't try to make it a saga? Once every thirty years is one thing, but how much can you do with driving around in pick-up trucks, gazing concernedly at CGI tornadoes?

[amethystina]

Shipper Tag Game

I was tagged by @a-very-fond-farewell! Thank you so much, darling! Though I'm not sure how good I'll be at it x'D

---

1. What ship were you completely obsessed with when you were a teenager, but now you don’t care anymore?

Honestly? None. While I did have some ships I was interested in, I wasn't obsessed with any of them. And I kind of still care about them? In a very nostalgic way. So I kind of fail at both parts of this question x'D

2. Which ship would you consider your first one?

If I'm going with the one I got really invested in? Destiel tbh. Mainly because I was very much a late bloomer who didn't really discover fandom and fanfics until I was 20-21. I mean, I HAD read some before that but since I didn't have internet in my apartment until I went to university (I was too poor xD), it wasn't easy for me to access them. Shipping is just easier when you have internet.

But, once I had it, I DID revisit a couple of ships that were technically older than Destiel that I had never really gotten into before that, many of them from video games, anime/manga, and books I'd read. But they were all overshadowed by Destiel so that's the one I remember as my first.

3. Your first fanfic belonged to which couple?

Are we talking reading or writing? I guess I'll do both?

Reading: I think it was a Zell Dincht/Seifer Almasy one from Final Fantasy VIII that a friend printed out on actual paper and gave to me back when I was 16 or 17 (again, no internet). And I honestly can't say why he picked that pairing xD (I'm definitely more of a Squall/Seifer girlie now)

Writing: Sterek. Because it felt interesting but also not too intimidating. And I also just like werewolves?

4. Do you remember the first couple you saw a fanart over?

Not really, no. Since I've been drawing for so long I spent more time looking for art than fanfics when I was younger so I probably stumbled over a lot of them without even knowing it.

5. Did you ever get into ship discourse?

Not if I can help it, no. I tend to stay away from that sort of thing as best I can and just let people ship whatever they want. It's honestly none of my business.

6. Did you use to have any no-otp or have it currently?

I have several, mostly based on what I find triggering or squicky. But I don't announce them publically because that's just rude to those who DO ship them. And, as stated above, I try not to get involved in what other people ship or don't ship.

7. Who were the couples in the last fanfic you read?

Choi Yoon/Yoon Hwa Pyung from The Guest. Because who doesn't love some pining and Catholic guilt?

For real, though, I read very few fanfics right now and actually had to go check my history on AO3 to figure this out x'D The second to last fanfic was a Strangers From Hell one. And the one before that was a Guardian one!

8. Currently do you have any OTPs?

Several. Honestly too many to list x'D I'm one of those people who don't really let go of ships I like. They're not always at the forefront of my mind, though, but I remember them fondly and coo a little when I think of all the fond memories.

But if we're talking about the ones I'm the most focused on right now I'd say Kang Yo Han/Kim Ga On from The Devil Judge, Yoon Sa Wol/5-8 from Black Knight (currently struggling with chapter 6 x'D), the aforementioned Choi Yoon/Yoon Hwa Pyung from The Guest, and Shen Wei/Zhao Yunlan from Guardian.

9. Is there any couple that, to this day, you are extremely mad about not getting together?

Sterek. But that has less to do with my dedication to the characters and more to do with the queerbaiting and how extremely shittily Jeff Davis handled that whole thing. To use the Sterek shippers for publicity and hint that maybe it could happen, only to turn around and do everything within his power to not make it happen?

I take that personally, not because I have a huge stake in Stiles and Derek as characters, but as a queer person who, for once, thought that maybe we would actually get to see a couple we really liked get together, and then didn't.

I had more hope for Sterek than I ever did for Destiel, which technically had more in-canon queerbaiting, because the people behind Teen Wolf did their damndest to give me hope. Only for me to be ignored and basically told I was being gullible for ever thinking it would happen.

And that's a betrayal I'm probably never going to forgive.

10. Is there any ship you used to dislike but now you think they are kind of interesting?

Not... really? I can't think of any, at least. But that could be because I always have a pretty good reason for disliking the ships I dislike. As mentioned, it's usually based on triggers and squicks and those don't really change. So my opinion on ships I dislike aren't likely to change, either.

11. Do you have any ship that, in the past, was considered normal but now you would be cancelled over?

I mean, considering the social climate right now? Even Sterek qualifies because Stiles was underage when I started shipping them and Derek most certainly was not xD That said, I always prefer the fics when Stiles had time to turn 18 before any of the sexy stuff happened.

12. What was your favourite crack ship?

Okay, so, I've actually read a lot of fics for ships I don't actually ship, just for research purposes. Like, I find it FASCINATING to watch what other people like, how they choose to write about the things they like, and how they decide to portray the characters. Basically, I like to analyse authors just as much as I like to analyse characters. It's a hobby of mine.

And one of my absolute favourites was reading fanfics for Newt Scamander and the original Percival Graves from the first Fantastic Beasts movie (Sidenote: She-who-must-not-be-named is an asshole and this is not an endorsement of her franchise or shitty beliefs). And why I loved that so much was because the fics were about THE ORIGINAL Percival Graves who, technically, was never IN the actual movie (he might not even be alive anymore?). Like, it was Grindelwald all the time. We never actually SAW the original Percival Graves, just Grindelwald's impersonation of him.

And I just had so much fun reading various authors' takes on this character who was never actually seen but, based on Grindelwald's impersonation, can sort of be hinted? Because he must have done a good enough job of it that the people around Graves didn't notice? It was like an anthropological dig of Percival Graves transpiring right before my eyes and since I got on the train pretty early, I could see authors being inspired by each other and how the fanon developed over time. 10/10 would recommend if you're interested in watching a fandom evolve.

(also, some of the fics were so fucking good. So there's that, too xD)

13. Who is the couple you read most fanfics of?

I'm not entirely sure if it's Destiel or Stony, but definitely one of them (Sterek is most likely in third place). Partly because there are just so many to partake in (those fandoms are HUGE), but also because they've been with me for so long and numbers accumulate. That said, I haven't read any for those ships in a long, long time. But considering how many fics I devoured during the time I was the most active in those fandoms? It's going to be difficult for any of the ones I'm currently into to catch up.

Also because I tend to be in much smaller fandoms now >_>

14. What do most of your ships usually have in common?

WELL. A while back I would have said that even if there are some enemies-to-lovers tropes and antagonising in some of them, they're all mostly unproblematic and pretty healthy.

... I can't really do that anymore, can I? x'D

I mean, Kang Yo Han is problematic all on his own, but even HE is a green flag compared to Seo Moon Jo. That fucker is just a straight-up psychopath x'D

A more serious answer: An interesting dynamic. Which sounds like a given, but is actually a bit more tricky than that. Because I've only gotten more and more picky over the years. I've actually spoken to my wife and friends about this, because I've seen a pretty noticeable shift in my own shipping practices lately.

I gather fewer and fewer new ships and that's not because I watch/read fewer things, but because I'm getting pickier about them. There has to be an extra spark that interests me, often connected to the characters' personalities and how they play off each other, while, before, a bit of chemistry was enough.

But that also makes me more versatile, I guess? Because I focus less on tropes and more on characters and dynamics. But that also makes it harder to spot similarities xD

15. What do you absolutely hate in a ship?

I mean, hate is a strong word. But, again, it would mostly be connected to my triggers. I don't like ships that are too abusive and unbalanced. A little bit of danger is fine, but things like abuse, infidelity, grooming, non-con etc. don't work for me, personally.

---

I don't really know who to tag so just do it if you want to! :D

[chirpsythismorning]

I dont even think the tag is dead at all tbh. We were really spoiled last summer with 2k post per day, and something crazy happening everyday like Mikhailgate, scriptgate, sock anon or people impersonating Ross duffer, but if you check most tags on this app, that's rarely the case. The thing is, it's been a year since season 4 came out and we're still getting around 300 posts per day and I need people to realise how crazy that is. Before season 4 the tag had like 5 k followers and there could be days without a single post. The fact that it's been a year and we still surpass 200 posts, AND we've already made it through the most content drought phase of the hiatus (since filming is about to begin and we'll increase the daily posts again) is crazy. This tag is still very much active, even for a show that hasn't released any new content for a year. And also AO3 is still active. The fact that for a whole year, there's been writers who still update fics or create new ones everyday is something I'm not used to coming from other smaller fandoms.

I get it's a bit more boring right now and we are looking back to the may-august craze, but we've already made it through the worst and we only need to hold on for one more month

This is definitely the best way to look at it!

I think I’m also maybe sad bc a lot of familiar faces aren’t as active, like some folks I remember seeing daily are gone. Which is fine!

And even despite that you’ll see posts in the tag get like hundreds of likes, so there are definitely a lot of people still lurking just not posting. Which is also fine!

It’s so true though that we are a lot more active than we realize.

Tumblr in general I used to think of as like a no man’s land pre-s4 bc it tends to really only be active in specific fandoms where like the unity is on point bc the content is just rolling in.

So many fandoms reside here at a point, but dwindle over time, and I feel like we are very fortunate to have made a big space here bc it is a cool platform when you have a lot of people that like a certain thing and want to talk about it.

And we’re fortunate enough to be so massive and not only that but this is sort of just the beginning. Imagine how many followers we’ll gain leading up to s5, during and after…? Or the aftermath of people coming here to look at theories and be like YOU GUYS WERE RIGHT! All the queer fans who kind of talked down on us (understandably) for potentially falling for queerbait, joining in and being like wow this is surreal, it finally happened. It’s going to be magical.

For now I guess it just makes me wonder if I should take a break too?? Like seeing yourself over and over in the tag is almost a wake up call that I should step back like everyone else is for the time being? Bc like idk if it’s maybe annoying to see the same person over and over? Or if it’s just the reminder of how inactive things are and that’s what makes people step back too?

Not even a bad thing necessarily like you said, bc this is still an unprecedented case of a fandom being quite active despite the circumstances.

Honestly though, even if there isn’t much news going into May and in the couple months after it, beyond like the bare minimum of what we’re expecting, I’ll try to embrace it and maybe step back or even focus on more detailed posts instead of the day to day fodder.

I also hate myself for this, but I rarely go in the top posts tag??? I’m always like living in the recent posts part of it and that’s probably also the problem 😭

So reminder to anyone that’s like me who does the same, we gotta support more of us that have top posts too bc I will literally remember the top posts exists, go there, find absolute gems (obviously it’s top posts???) and then be like why the fuck don’t I come here more often??? That’s another way I could probably curb my disappointment about us not being as active as I’m used to. And it’s super simple.

There’s a lot of stuff like that I could do better at to contribute to the solution of this being a better experience for myself and other still active on here!

Thanks for the pep talk anón 😇🙏

[punkxcalibur]

personal mphfpc recap since i finally finished reading all the books

spoilers for the entire mphfpc series ahead. this will mostly be me talking about the book's imperfections, because when i love a piece of media, i also love criticizing it to its core

so, i first read the books 1-4 in 2020 and i was SO obsessed!!?? i wasn't really into social media and fandom culture back then, so i didn't really have anyone to talk to about mphfpc and i remember being very sad about that. i also remember trying to make fanart of the characters, but i REALLY sucked at art back then and to this day i find old mphfpc drawings and cringe at them. maybe it's time to redraw some of those...

anyways, i read the fifth book when it first came out in germany and i kind of hated it lol. i was really rushing through it, because i couldn't wait for the fugh reunion. so i kind of missed out on the whole plot because i only cared about fiona and hugh.

basically, i recently finished rereading the books, because nostalgia or whatever and i'm kind of obsessed again. so...i'm just dumping some thoughts on the whole series here because on tumblr i can actually find ppl with mutual interests.

first of all there's literally SO MANY inconsistencies and plotholes?? what the actual fuck ransom riggs. idk how much of this is prevalent in the og books, because i mainly read the german translations, but sometimes riggs just forgets who hugh is i guess?? he mixes up his and horace's peculiarities once and at some point he is referred to as howard. who the fuck is howard. these are literally the most easiest mistakes to fix. does he not have an editor?

i'm not even gonna talk about the movie. i have a whole seperate post for it

it sometimes bothers me how only certain characters seem to serve a purpose. in every novel emma, enoch, millard and bronwyn are clearly the focus (besides jacob) despite the fact that the other characters are equally interesting and likeable. hugh, horace, claire, olive and obviously fiona are just NOT THERE for like the entirety of AMOD. are you kidding me

the entire second trilogy...is kind of a cashgrab. of course i'm happy we got more books and i liked them, but it's kind of obvious that the author simply had some pictures left and saw an opportunity to make some more profit out of them. that's not bad, but these books weren't necessary for the overall storyline.

the thing with the prophecy in DODA...the entire book was dedicated to finding the other lighteaters, but they don't really do anything in the end?? i kinda get why noor has to be the *main character*, but why introduce julius and sebbie when everything could have played out the same way without them?

julius and horace...is it really that hard to age julius down? it would've made that a lot less creepy. there is literally no reason for julius to so much older than horace. not sure if this could be considered queerbaiting, since i don't know a lot about that topic. would be grateful if anyone elaborated more on that.

hugh and fiona are still my favorite thing about these books THEY ARE PERFECT IN EVERY WAY AND DESERVED SO MANY MORE SCENES UGH. i don't need another jemma kiss i need FUGH. there is just so much potential and plus, we never really get to learn about their backstories?? like we know that they're from the 1840s, so how did they get into a loop a century later?

how was fiona able to *whisper* to hugh in DODA, she literally had her tongue cut out, hello?

so many characters with lots of potential either die or just disappear. lilly, sam, althea, peter-and-joel...ring any bells??

why is horatio kinda

ok i'm sorry

the photos are so funny sometimes, because at times there will be a photo of, say, emma and in the next book there will be another picture of her and she just looks like a different person. because,obviously, that's a photo of a different person. but apparently, ransom thinks we're too dumb to notice that.

i would just love it if there'd be storylines that focused on each character individually, because again, WASTED POTENTIAL

ricky deserved to have a comeback, i feel like this is general fandom consensus

introducing v, just to kill her off? idk man

despite all of these criticisms i just made, i fucking cherish these books

since pjo gets a new awesome reboot i think we deserve one too

i also wish the fandom was bigger but maybe it's a good thing that it's kind of niche. i don't know.

uhh i guess that was my not-so-little rant and yeah...enjoy this post i guess

[wildishmazz]

Reading Bury Your Gays bit by bit

I find my mind going back to the nondescript van that was in the car park the first time we went to Betta.

I imagine Robby is long gone and NDA'd to within an inch of his life. If he's still alive. If he was ever alive.

That one last chance to change his mind feels like "I am giving you a chance to not get your friends killed". But hopefully from an entity that overestimates its own power.

"In the flesh," unlike you.

Feels a bit odd that Zeke's the one wielding the flash drive, but I guess he's less suspect than the actual IT person.

The glass melting away feels like an allusion to one of the most ridiculous moments in that feat of queerbaiting extraordinaire, Sherlock. Not that I watched that episode or any of that season. Thank God I was unable to watch that season until after the reviews and analysis and howls of outraged anguish were in.

Earthquakes. Stands to reason that the type of people who would embark on this project would also be the type who refuse to factor in inconvenient real life facts that they would rather think didn't apply to them.

Introduce a new variable. Unexpected parallel to Prodigy.

The board tries to handwave the methods being ruthless using the face of a man it inflicted those methods on until he died of pain-induced cardiac arrest? I suppose that's one reason why he didn't morph into the mob boss. It wouldn't have felt as obscene coming from his mouth, just in character.

The scientists and lab technicians too?

The whole building?

Quicksand.

It was replacing everything. The Dead Internet incarnate.

Fittingly, I can see how this would work on screen. The montage of people and buildings collapsing into dust.

We're not going to meet the woman who made the machine this time, are we? I wonder what the chances are that she also made the tethering device in Camp Damascus?

And we still don't know what Agent Y looked like.

epilogue:

Boy meets girl, that's a safe beginning. But totally reimagined because this Joe Gillis and Betty Schaeffer will not be embarking on a torrid and doomed love affair. 

I'm a little surprised we didn't get one last script chapter. But maybe those only existed from the perspective of the machine.

[sheepwasfound]

Hi! I'm really curious what are your thoughts on dnf "queerbaiting" their audience? I know this topic is quite often been discussed, but it seems like many people don't see it as a baiting at all, while it is very obvious in some cases (for example, their texts, tweets, sometimes "jeoulosy" thing seems kinda off, "some interactions are seemingly staged - the one where dream "didn't know" that george was streaming etc). Don't get me wrong, I don't want to bring any negativity, but their relationship really confuse me - sometimes it is obviously geniune flirting, sometimes they very clearly exploit this topic for clout. And well it's hard to blame them for this, I mean it's not really their fault that the audience got so invested in whatever happens between them, but sometimes the "staged" part seem a bit too much tbh. I just really wonder to what amount this whole thing is real. Because well I feel like if you "play pretend" as a couple so much with someone it may start feeling odd, weird, somewhat real and then you may start questioning your own feelings. Idk, it kinda feels like what is happening with them, but maybe they are just really really good actors.

eh, i think it's a mix, but the parts that i personally find shippable about them are not something they do for show imo. however, i do think they occasionally do play things up for fun.

first of all, they're actual people and actual friends so they can't "queerbait" (as a bi i hate that misconception with a passion but that'd be another essay), but if we ignore that and just consider what you're talking about as them...playing things up because they think it's funny and it'll get a reaction from the audience. that's just something entertainers do. one example of this is when dream said "well, obviously we're gonna kiss" when asked about what they'll do when they meet. ofc i don't know their motivations, but i'm guessing a fair bit of the reason they make those kinds of comments is because they themselves find it funny. many friends do this. dream's also said they did it before youtube. maybe they also find the audience's reaction funny. it's still not queerbaiting. i don't think they do it consciously as some kind of marketing ploy, cus let's be real -- they don't need it. i'm pretty sure they just plain enjoy that shit. they have a fun time doing it. and the audience has a fun time watching it.

the texts you mentioned btw, those are just between them, how could it even be "for clout"? if you think they plan out texting each other stuff like that and then posting it a few weeks later, i think that's going pretty far for two cc's who have a huge following and piles of money completely independently from their ship. they literally do not need to do that. i think a more likely reason is they have a fun time doing it. so yes, i do believe they sometimes play stuff up, but i think the reason they do it is because it’s fun for them, and they do it whether they have an audience or not. it’s not “staged”, they’re just having fun.

to top it off, as a shipper i'm not a huge fan of those very over-the-top lines or whatever, cus they pretty clearly come off as jokes. ofc...well...making jokes like that is also a way to flirt...and figure stuff out...and lines can blur... but anyway, the parts i like most about them are the ones they don't play up. their dedication to each other. their dumbass bickering while they're still obviously having the time of their lives. being able to talk all day and not get sick of each other. wanting to live together. always being hyperaware of each other. knowing every tiny detail about each other. most of these are just...things that super close friends do too. for me, that's what i like about them. and that is absolutely real.

still, when it comes to shipping them romantically, the thing that gets me beyond the friendshipy things isn't the over-the-top dnf jokes and whatever that they do (though like i said, that can be flirting too), it's the goddamn tension they have sometimes. such close friends that are so familiar and so comfortable with each other, how do they still get moments where they...well, get quiet. awkward. sometimes you can see george bite his lip and let out a little giggle cus he doesn't know what to say, and you hear dream's voice get even lower. it's like you can hear their hearts beating and thoughts racing. their acting ain't that fricking good anon

[rainbowsky]

Ask regarding Baili Hongyi from DD's new drama Luoyang. Putting it under a cut for spoilers.

Anonymous asked:

I don't know who to ask but you about this, but my friends and I watched WoL. One of my male friends suddenly said, "That gay guy is bla bla bla" to Baili. (No he didn't mock it. He said it while he described/discussed Baili he used it to differentiate one character from others. Like he called Baili's wife as candy woman because she didn't contribute much so far but to be Baili's wife a.k.a the candy of the show)

I was like 'huh?' and goes "The actor is gay, you mean?"

But he went "No, the character. The Baili guy."

Do you think you 'feel this vibe' too? Is it implied or something? Because in the novel, Baili is like totally straight with him madly in love with his wife whom he is kinda cold to in the beginning. But we know novel and its adaptation always have some differences. ( And sadly, even though I'm familiar with queerbaitings in shows, it takes some time for me to recognize them.)

Or what my friend felt is just DD's gayness or something?

I can't explain this because I know DD is gay, so I always see him as gay no matter how 'straight' his character is. My friend doesn't know anything about DD.

What about you, Sky?

Oh, I know in the novel Baili is also described to be cold hearted and kinda doesn't like woman, but mostly it's implicitly explained that he is just 'not ready for marriage/doesn't really care much about women&marriage and still want to do what he wants," not because he actually hates women and marriage in general.

Same goes with the show when he shows distaste when the women are pawning him and the line "Marriage has no meaning to me. I don’t wish to be married. I don’t want to continue the family line...". I dunno if these are for the 'cold-hearted personality and implicit -I'm not ready to marry, I wanna do my things- explanation, or because he is gay/ace thing?

I personally do not read Baili Hongyi as gay, I read him as autistic. I get the impression that's intentional on the part of the creators. Especially since after he was groped by the women in the brothel he seemed to have had a bit of a meltdown.

He has all the classic 'stereotypical' autism traits:

Hates being touched

Much more interested in ideas and tasks than in people

Can get overwhelmed when faced with too much sensory or social stimulation

Focused on his specific interests (food, puzzles, engineering, systems), which he is a comprehensive expert on, and ignores everything/one else, including eating and sleeping

Fixated on justice, right/wrong

Creative and intelligent

Constantly underestimated

Blunt/honest in his speech; doesn’t understand or participate in social niceties

Fiercely independent; wants to do things according to his vision of what's appropriate, regardless of what other people think

Complete lack of interest in money, status, or social expectations

Doesn't use his face expressively in the way others do

Of course, people have a natural tendency to connect with characters by identifying with them, so they'll often see themselves in a character in some way. I know a lot of people read him as ace, for example, many of whom are ace themselves. So maybe as an autistic person I see autism. Maybe I identify him as autistic in part because I want him to be like me.

However, as a gay guy I don't see 'gay' in him. He's shown an indifference to his wife, and to marriage in general, but there hasn't been an expressed interest in men, either.

It's fairly common for autistic people to be extremely focused, and to not take an interest in relationships until the feeling strikes them. When it does, they can become very interested in relationships, love, etc. It just looks like Baili isn't there yet.

That's my take on it. Everyone's own perspective is valid. Like I said, we're all going to see ourselves in the characters. It's the way our brain naturally tries to get invested in a show or film.

If I had to guess why your friend said Baili is gay, I'd say it's likely because in a heteronormative society everyone who shows a disinterest in the opposite sex is assumed to be gay. Ask all the ace people who get labelled as gay, regardless of their actual orientation.

But you know your friend better than I do - having never met him - so you should either just ask him, or draw your own conclusions based on what you know of him.

Do I think he saw DD's queerness leaking through? No. DD is an actor performing a role. If I believed he couldn't play a straight character convincingly, that would be like saying he's not a good actor. He's showing indifference because that's what the role calls for.

That will likely change as the series progresses. It's a classic love story trope for someone to be indifferent and gradually become loving. As you said, it's how things go in the novel.

[jujianjes]

Just want you to know that I also identify as both bisexual and genderfluid and you know why this is such a problem? Because representation matters. It's not just about some silly ship, it's literally about how they're constantly creating misconceptions about literal fucking identities.

Yes, we're the ones that are actually existing with our actual identities and not those fictional character, but you know why media is so fucking relevant? Because most of it are informative and relatable. Some see their struggles from an outside perspective and allows them to understand themselves better. Some see other cultures and learn about it. Through media.

Media plays an important role in, not just entertainment, but also how people view concepts that is being shown. People consume media.

I know people can have different opinions, but hey, guess what? People can have it without being outright disrespectful because their silly little ship is actually harmful to certain communities.

We're not the ones being disrespectful because last I checked, all of our arguments have supporting details to prove our point. We're the ones rationally reasoning out to people who would spit on our faces 'cos we dared be offended by a literal misrepresentation of our identity.

And why would it be bi erasure to speak a fact that has been rationally backed by multiple informations multiple times? I am not fucking speaking for all bisexuals and genderfluid folks, I never said that, my claim is that it is harmful to the identities itself, some bi people may not side with us but we are also defending their identity, we are explaining to other people what bisexuality is so why would that be bi erasure? Just because there are bi people who are not offended while we're claiming it's offensive to our identity, it's already bi erasure? Do you even understand what bi erasure is?

There are bi folks and genderfluid folks who may not be offended, but guess what? The people we argued with have invalidated them because it's just fiction, right? You can like or ignore or whatever all you want but at least be fucking aware that misrepresentation in media is a problem.

If people try to explain why it is harmful to them, and they get striked with "it's just fiction, you don't have to be offended", or worse, get straight up invalidated as people with their own identity, which I have seen a lot of Sylki shippers do btw, doesn't that seem like an actual problem instead of something made up to cover up the fact that we didn't get what we want which is literally just proper representation?

A lot of people reflect on fiction, see themselves in characters of fiction, see their struggles be shown in fiction. From your own words, it seems like fiction doesn't do that for you, so maybe just stay away from the people who are defending their identity against people who didn't just queerbaited a lot of queer individuals, but outright disrespected them.

Oh my goodness, I can't believe we're still not over this.

Loki and Sylvie as a ship is a total disrespect towards genderfluid folks and is an accessory for bisexual erasure.

A lot of people have explained this already. I still see people not only defending it with their life, but being actively rude and disrespectful towards people trying to explain why it's a toxic ship.

[lesbiangracehanson]

I know the lesbian can do no wrong and i do ship ladley but Laura was pretty pushy at Bradley about how she cuts Chaos out of her life and how Bradley needs to look at hers and walk away from hal. And the one time Bradley said no to something, which was coming over after she was outed, laura went very pissy. I do understand that Bradley would think what Laura had said was that she'd break up with her if Bradley didn't walk away from her family. They just never had the time to talk that through. Or for bradley to get therapy and figure out what it is she wants to do and not hal, laura or Cory. And tbh you can feel left alone even if you understand why someone had to walk away. The show didn't make Laura a villain at all. Just said these are two fundamentally different options for Bradley and she needs to decide what fits her better. And this conversation online that is centered around implying the show is lesbophobic or homophobic for criticising Laura in any way or going with a straight couple as well is imo terrible. It won't lead to better rep. But to no rep at all. Your ship not winning isn't inherently bait or any Form of phobia etc. Especially since the show and Reese never said anything else and always also mentioned Cory and Bradley. At least Bradley doesn't know he outed her I fully expected them to have her forgive him on screen. From Bradley's pov he's her friend whose always been on her side. She clearly has mental health issues and is in a crisis. I genuinenly don't get the outrage either about the content of the ep nor the comments from the creators.

yeah! hello to you too i guess! :-)

i've not at any point said that 'the lesbian can do no wrong', i've also not said that bradley + laura is queerbaiting at any point. i don't believe either of those things to be true

i think the fact that laura is being read as 'pushy' for setting clear, emotionally healthy boundaries with other people is very telling though and says a lot about what we think of people who - after years of working on themselves - are able to articulate calmly what they do and do not want from their life. it's funny to me that you've said laura went 'very pissy' the 'one time bradley said no to something' like, was she upset? yes obviously, they'd both been through a shit day + i appreciate that the writers acknowledged that that day was also shit for laura, even if the focus was understandably on bradley. does that also mean she was unnecessarily argumentative about the situation? no lol........ she says what she wants, explains why she wants it + ultimately says to bradley 'ok do what u have to do with your brother, go home + we'll see each other tomorrow'. you seem to think i believe ALL lesbian characters 'can do no wrong' or that i'm looking for moral purity in the lesbian characters i watch.......... which is just not true lol, i've enjoyed laura as a character so much because it feels rare to see a character who has clearly acknowledged she had shit to work through AND has actually worked on it, so i guess? kudos to the writers for that. my problem comes in the fact that laura's boundaries + her emotional maturity is being read by the audience as 'pushy' or 'pissy' behaviour lol

i agree there just wasn't time for them to talk things through or for bradley to get therapy and i agree that you can feel left alone even if you understand why someone went. but i guess if we're gonna be pedantic that my issue with what reese said was that laura abandoned bradley, not that bradley felt that laura had abandoned her. but whatever, i get that actors sometimes don't think about the things they say in bts stuff/interviews, i just think that was maybe an unhelpful thing to hear after the last episode

yes, bradley clearly was in a crisis in the last episode for understandable reasons! so i think it was probably questionable of cory to pick the moment where bradley was saying how overwhelmed she was feeling to finally confess his love for her. this confession was clearly meant to be the big climax for the finale + i can logically understand all the reasons the writers wanted that as their narrative climax/that they wanted the bradley/cory relationship as their cliffhanger but that doesn't mean i don't get to feel disappointed by that decision

like tbh, i'm actually just kind of tired of having to clarify that me being personally disappointed in the direction a show has gone is not an attack on every single thing the show is doing or that my disappointment means i'm missing 'the point'. i'm not engaging with the writers on twitter, i'm not complaining in the comments of actors' instagrams, i'm posting my thoughts on a show in the tiny corner of the internet i inhabit, you are free to disagree but i'm not about to stop voicing my disappointments in my space ! and i agree that more productive conversations need to be had in online spaces but the argument that queer women need to find a way of making their criticisms palatable to ostensibly straight writers/showrunners who can easily take that rep away or whatever, has never sat well with me

[lonelier-version-of-you]

if that's the wiki's stance then we're never going to have even five bi characters in the whole show. because holby and casualty either only write bisexuality as subtext for characters they only show in straight relationships (connie, henrik, jac), or they have characters be in a mlm/wlw relationship with a confirmed gay characters and call themselves gay as well (lofty, serena). like when has a character actually called themselves bi on either show?

Jez Andrews called himself bi, didn’t he? Like I know he had the weird lines about being “half gay and half straight” or whatever it was he said but I swear he did actually also call himself bi at least once.

Lofty was called bi at some point, I seem to recall, but it was by someone else (I want to say either Dom or Sacha), not himself. I don’t think he ever labelled his sexuality in the show, but all the promo material referred to him as gay, and Lee Mead called him gay as well. So it’s a weird situation. As far as I’m aware, you’re right that they never used the word ‘bisexual’ with regard to Serena - while there was definitely at least one use of ‘lesbian’, one comment about her not being into men (although this was from Ric, not Serena herself), and a few more ambiguous usages of ‘sapphic’.

...So, yeah, that gives us a grand total of two explicitly bi characters in both shows combined, and with one of them they flip-flopped between saying he was bi and saying he was gay. :/

I’d argue there’s also a third category between 'bisexuality as subtext’ and ‘bi but referred to as gay’: characters like Donna, and Lola Griffin, who have been with both men and women but haven’t labelled themselves with any specific sexuality. (I mean, I guess that’s why the ‘LGBTQ women’ category exists on the wiki.) IDK what to call these characters. “Bi as a one-off”, maybe? (One-off in the sense of how the show treats it, not that I think that’s how it works or anything.) Like, Lola revealed that she was dating a woman in a one-off guest return, and Donna slept with Mickie Hendrie that one time, but in terms of what we’ve actually seen from them on the show, their long-term primary relationships have all been with men.

And then the situations for characters like the ice queen trio are just... a mess. Heavy, HEAVY implications, but they never quite say it. For Jac we have definitive, explicit, undeniable actor confirmation (which came alongside Rosie’s own coming out), for Henrik we don’t have anything quite that strong but Guy has made a few different comments about Henrik not being straight/about him being interested in men and did suggest at one point that Henrik could be bisexual (actually using that word) - I don’t think Amanda Mealing has said anything about Connie being bi (yet)? but please do correct me if she has - but the show itself just barely skirts around the topic of both characters’ sexualities.

(And when I say “just barely”, I mean it to the point that... if you look at some of Connie’s, Henrik’s, or Jac’s interactions with people of the same gender as them, and you imagine a man and a woman having those interactions, people would take it as an objective fact that those interactions were romantic. E.g. if Arianne Cornell were a man, no one would be in any doubt that she and Connie used to date or that Jac slept with her during that road trip. if John Gaskell were a woman, no one would be in any doubt that Henrik was in love with him.

Basically, the Holby writers are lucky society is so heteronormative that people usually jump to any other possible explanation for these interactions, because everyone would just Know these characters weren’t straight otherwise and the show wouldn’t be able to get away with queerbaiting lolll.)

Sorry, I feel like I’m losing track of my own point here. I mean I guess the point is ‘Holby can’t write bisexuality’ but we both already knew that.

Anyway, as for the wiki thing: I do have to wonder how it’s gonna work WRT bi characters especially. Because just not including certain characters like Henrik, Jac, or Connie, in those categories is easy enough, but what about characters like Lofty, Donna, or Lola? Are they going to just be categorised as generally LGBTQ because they express attraction to both men and women but haven’t explicitly identified as bi, or categorised as bi even though they’ve never used that word for themselves, or what? I don’t envy anyone, including the wiki mod, trying to sort out that mess tbh.

[fandomshatelgbtqpeople]

Voltron basically queerbaited us, but not in a way most people view queerbaiting- it promised us good representation, but instead we got a dead gay character and Shiro was dumbledored (confirmed as gay outside of the show but not in-universe). Steven Universe gave me hope that maybe finally it's time for more good LGBT rep in cartoons, but I guess we're not there yet. At this point, I doubt we'll ever be.

Before season 7 was released I had lost interest in Voltron but the news about gay/mlm Shiro (the coolest character) drew me back in, and I thought oh with everything that he has been through especially last season he’d finally get to have some happiness in the form of getting back with his ex boyfriend. Of course that didnt happen. I get sad about these things but I like to stay hopeful. Steven Universe delivers on queer rep because Rebecca Sugar is a bisexual non binary woman, queer content creators are who we should be relying on and supporting. The She ra reboot is being made by Noelle Stevenson who afaik is lesbian, the show may or may not have queer content but it’ll likely at the least be queer friendly, and Im looking forward to it.

-mod i

[bisluthq]

Babe YOU open up your mind a little and wonder why someone being like “idk I don’t mind” might not just be an act of allyship from a Kinsey 0 person /// are you daft? i AM the one saying it's possible BOTH FUCKING WAYS. You're the only saying they're 109% for a fact queer sis. Stop being a hypocrite and actually read the questions. We're open to your intrepration you're the one triggered by anything different

Well then WHO CARES dude? I’m not like going to argue with Jack - or Harry - stans who feel they’re 110% straight. Idc. So like what are you getting from proving this?

You brought up Brendan Urie - he’s married to a woman so guess what MAYBE HE LIED FOR ATTENTION or to be more liberal or whatever. He says he’s pansexual but seeing as how he’s married to a woman MAYBE HE IS LYING. Same for Jason Mraz who calls himself bi. Idk these people’s heads or dicks - I just accept what they say. So if someone says “don’t assume I’m straight” without adding further heteroflexible bullshit I’m gonna assume they’re off straight (not a gay icon tho!!!!) and if someone says “I’m not queerbaiting anyone who cares about labels” I’m gonna assume they’re not keen to label themselves straight (not a gay icon tho!!!!!) and beyond that again as Harry says who fucking careeeeeeees?

What benefit will you get from telling me I don’t know someone else’s sexuality? Like I don’t. Fuck THEY might not. So what POSSIBLE win can you have from saying “maybe they’re lying or confused or whatever” like ABSOLUTELY possible but let’s just idk believe people.

[thespiritofeon]

Queerbaiting & Voltron

Ok, guys.... I've seen too many posts about this, so I guess It's my turn to add an opinion.

I just want to preface this by saying that I am a queer person (as in... not cishet... not cis or het...)

Ok, with that out of the way... Why in the world are we saying Voltron is Queerbait??? We don't have anything to go off of?? The show literally just started and we barely have any interactions. I'm not going to lie, there are a few interactions that could be argued for being intimate, but we don't have anything to go off of???

We don't know the character's back stories????

We know Lance has a big family and that Pidge has a brother and parents. We know that Keith has/had a dad that may or may not have lived in The Shack. We know - or assume - that Keith's mother was at least part Galra. (As a biracial person, having Keith being half Galra is a big personal headcannon of mine. And I 100% identify with the "not fitting in on either side" deal, so that would be great for me if that's what we find out) And we know that Lotor is half Galra/half Altean (👀👌 biracial representation right there my boi) We know Allura had a dad for sure, but did she have any siblings? What happened to her mother? Did she have any cousins? Did Coran have any family? A significant other? Children? Perhaps he had a daughter and sees her in Allura.

We don't know anything about these characters!!!!!

We have head-cannons and "what if"s!!!

The only thing sexuality-wise we know about the Voltron characters is that Lance may or may not be attracted to women. However, he has flirted with at least two alien women.

The only "trans-maybe" representation we have is a short comedic scene with Pidge freezing at the bathroom signs.

Please don't make a mountain out of a mole-hill.

Please stop harassing the producers!!!

Do you understand how easy it can be for the producers to just.... Stop producting Voltron: Legendary Defenders?

Do you know if the cast has a clause in their contracts that prohibit them from quitting? Do you know if they have to pay a fee if they do?

Do you want to risk it?

They can just be like "alright guys, wrap it up. Don't even worry about finishing what you have, we're going to submit it as is. I know it was fun but these brats are screwing with our numbers. The cast hates working with the ungrateful fans and they quit and it's too costly to recast this far into the game."

If this thing gets cut short, Voltron Legendary Defenders will be another crappy reboot.

Stop risking the show because you're ungrateful.

Stop it. Be patient.

The majority of you are adults and you're acting like children.

[awed-frog]

Hi! I've just gotten back into the fandom after a few years break. I've watched SPN since it aired in 2005, but I've left four times, each time for at least a year, because I keep feeling like we're being queerbaited w/Destiel and it really upsets me. In short, I feel like investing so much time, and so many emotions, into this pairing is a waste of time because it will only leave me disappointed in the end. So my question for you is, what keeps you positive enough about this pairing to stay?

Hey, sorry for getting back to you so late. I wrote and erased several answers to this, because, I don’t know, on some days I was trying to be clever and go all meta-stuff but it always sounded pretentious and stupid, and then on other days I felt dramatic and angry and got all upset and it would generally read as too much or not nearly enough, so. And today I really think I left this unanswered for way too long and that if you asked me, then you wanted my opinion on the matter and this is what I should be trying to do - just to say what i think, without too many frills.

So, first of all - I’m a weird person, and sometimes I get too worked up about stuff, and I obsess a lot, and thank God I’ve got people in my life who keep me grounded and remind me about what really matters. And the truth is, Supernatural doesn’t. It’s a good show, and we all love it, and sure, like all popular works of fiction it probably changed someone’s mind and had an impact on someone’s life, but at the end of the day, you come first. As I said, I had periods in my life where I was putting too much energy on the wrong things, and a TV show is definitely the wrong thing, especially if it leaves you frustrated and upset and angry. I say this with a lot of respect, because I know we all love Supernatural and everything, but let’s be honest - it’s a TV show. It’s not real. If it makes you cry for the wrong reasons, get away from it and good riddance. What truly matters in this life is to find a way to love yourself and to be there for other people - to be kind, and to be strong, and to maybe make our world a little better. So if a story helps you do that, embrace it; and if it doesn’t, let it go. It’s just a story.

For me, personally, I had a very emotional time with Destiel (you can read about it here), because I felt cheated and let down and pretty much what you describe - I knew I’d invested so much of myself in the show, and that they’d let me down for stupid reasons. And it was really bleak for a while, so I get where you’re coming from. Back in S9, I spent many days feeling listless and depressed, and quite a few nights ranting and raging and even crying about it, and when I snapped out of it I realized that sure, they were being cunts and cheaters but there was something wrong with me, as well - because, as I just told you, it’s just a show, and it shouldn’t have dominated my feelings in such a way. So I tried to be objective and rational and I thought about it and I realized it was a bunch of things - I was stressed in school, and my grandparents were sick - all I’d wanted was to take a big step back from reality and as a result I’d fallen too deep into the show and that’s why when it let me down, it really felt like a physical blow. And since not getting lost in fiction, my own or other people’s, is not an option for me, I’m learning to deal with real life stuff better so I can tell apart what really matters from what doesn’t. I know I’ve made some progress there because I was really invested in Sherlock and Johnlock, and yet after the series finale I was - normal. I was upset and angry, of course, because it sucked balls, but it didn’t ruin my whole week or anything. My general mood was more a sort of, It’s not real and I can’t change it, so fuck them. 

(I think this is what happens with everything, by the way - most sport fans get so invested in their teams because it’s a sort of victory by proxy and it compensates for those things that are wrong in their lives. So, really - I don’t know you, and I don’t want to tell anyone how they should live their lives, but if this kind of ‘external’ things such as TV shows and movies make you so unhappy, my advice is to get to know yourself and understand why you feel that way. If there is something in your own life you’re not dealing with, the best thing is really to try and be brave and go at it head-on, because life is unfair and bad feelings and bad situations - that’s not something that goes away on its own. And it’s your life - you deserve to live it fully.)

So now - now there are shows I watch because I think they’re objectively outstanding, like Westworld, and there are shows I watch as a guilty pleasure and I’m mostly rolling my eyes at the screen but who knows, maybe it’s healthy to cry once a week so whatever (yeah, I’m a Grey’s Anatomy aficionado), and then there’s Supernatural, which is neither. I guess the reason I keep watching is because most of it is well-written, even if I dislike the fact they clearly have no idea as to where they’re going and what the whole thing even means, and I keep watching because I love the characters, and I keep watching because I met a lot of nice people in the fandom and writing about the show is helping me to get better as a writer (I think). The truth is, I’m an unusual Destiel shipper (if there’s such thing as a regular Destiel shipper, that is), because I’m not that interested in romance and even representation - well, it’s very important and stories should be more inclusive, but a good story can work even without being PC, in my opinion (take Reservoir Dogs, for instance). So what I resent the most in this situation is that they got me to care - they clearly wrote the story one way - and then they made me feel like there was something wrong with me for seeing what I was seeing. This is textbook abusive behaviour, and the fact it was targeted directly at the gay community (because, on the whole, they’re more likely to pick up on subtextual clues about sexuality) made it even more horrifying and wrong. 

That said, I don’t think there was a malicious intent there. I’m sure they knew what they were doing, because that’s their job, after all, but they all seem to be pretty decent people, so it’s not clear if they did not realize how significant a love story between Dean and Cas would be, or how attentive their own fandom was - I simply don’t know. Maybe they were going for some old-fashioned ‘alas, that it shall never be’ nonsense - back in the day, it happened very often that you were left with the feeling of things unsaid and you never knew if you were right or not, and also you mostly forgot about it because real-time fangirling over stuff wasn’t a thing. In a way, that’s also what happened with Sherlock, which became a worldwide phenomenon because of the fandom, something Moffat and Gatiss acknowledged without never realizing, apparently, the full implications of.

I think that, to an extent, we’ve always lived in a world of lies and deceit, and that’s just human nature; but as far as I can tell, the spreading of capitalism and consumer culture, on the one hand, and that of democratic societies, on the other, elevated the importance of honesty to a whole other plane. Corporations lie to us as a matter of fact - all advertisement is a lie, after all - and politicians also mostly lie, both to us and to themselves. This was always bound to have disastrous consequences, which we are now starting to witness. For this reason, mostly, I think it’s more important than ever that artists are honest about the stories they tell - they can talk about anything, of course, and decide which kind of story they want to create, but they should stay true to it. I sometimes feel that, like other important concepts, such as freedom of expression, the idea that a story is its reader’s, and not its creator’s, is sometimes perverted beyond recognition. To say that the story belongs to its readers means that we all come to the story with our own experiences, and that we all get from it what we choose to get, to some extent; this is, perhaps, some form of cognitive bias (we see the world as we are, and not as it is: that sort of thing), and a good writer will create a story that is deep enough all of us can recognize ourselves in a part of it. But some modern creators, like current politicians, intend the concept in a very different way. Their method is to deliberately appeal to everyone in order to get money or votes, and they forget, or pretend to ignore, that in so doing they are bound to deceive a significant part of those who believed in them. Just as the centrism in politics is an illusion, a story which tries to make everyone happy is plain dishonest. When push comes to shove, Dean and Cas are either in love or they aren’t, and it’s not my job as a viewer to guess what they really feel - it’s the show’s creators job to tell me.

So, you know - you ask how I stay positive enough to keep watching the show - it sounds weird, since I write metas every week and I write Destiel fanfiction and everything, but personally, I’m trying not to think about Destiel at all. For me, it is real, in the sense that I still see it in the story, but I think that for a variety of reasons, there will be no steady love stories on Supernatural until the very last season. My hope is that, since a convincing gay story is harder to write than a straight one (because, apparently, many people are still unaware of the fact gay people are a thing at all), the Destiel subtext will get stronger quite soon(ish) if Destiel is indeed endgame. I mean, you see it very clearly from that whole Saileen business - in Sam’s case, two episodes are plenty enough to build a believable love story and make us root for Sam and Eileen and daydream about their darling little house and their fluffy future dogs, but, again, when it comes to gay couples - even if Dean and Cas do get together in the very last episode or something, you need to build that up quite openly and not too late, or it will feel forced to a casual viewer. As I said, I try not to think too much about it because there are a lot of ifs, but - if Supernatural has an end date in sight, if this is a coming of age narrative and not a tragedy, if nothing messy happens IRL - then I think that yes, we still have a chance for Destiel to happen textually. That dreadful Sherlock ending, after all, and mostly the outraged and angry response from both critics and the fandom, should serve as a warning to Dabb and his team: planning to go big and then not going big doesn’t endear you to anyone, because people’s hearts are wild, unpredictable, irrational and beautiful things, and even Hotelling’s law has its limits.