#Gilfaethwy

[gaya-antiqua]

Gwydion and Gilfaethwy

(The Fourth Branch of the Mabinogi)

[gingersnaptaff]

Comprehensive list of couples that need therapy - Mabinogion edition:

1. Rhiannon and Pwyll - Famously stupid dude marries famously smart woman. Nothing bad happens. (Oh, ur son's mysteriously disappeared, and ur wife's maids say ur wife ATE HIM?! Punish ur wife for seven years, make her become a horse, and give people rides like an uber. Don't think twice about this.) 6/10. I think couples therapy would probably help. At the very least Pwyll might fuckin think about things.

2. Branwen and Matholwch - Um, well, their marriage causes a war. And Matholwch is an ASS. I don't think couples therapy would've saved them. I think Branwen should've been allowed to fuckin deck him. 9/10

3. Brân and the Pair Dadeni. Um, the couple that slays together stays together. WAIT! NO, NOT LIKE THAT! WKDKDKF (The Pair Dadeni got blown up. They cannot have couples therapy.) 0/10

4. Manawydan and Rhiannon - They Do Not need couples therapy. They are very well-adjusted. Manawydan makes shoes, and Rhiannon just chills. They talk a lot. Rhiannon calls Manawydan a bad bud to Pryderi, though so there is that. In his defence, Pryderi was stuck to a golden bowl at the time and unable to speak. 4/10

5. Cigfa and Pryderi - Both idiots whom I love. Both snooty. Pryderi takes offence to shoemaking, and Cigfa takes offence to farming—match made in heaven. 0/10

6. Gwydion and Gilfaethwy - They fucked. They're brothers and they fucked. Their uncle made them become animals and they fucked. I think they just need therapy, never mind couples therapy. 100/10

7. Blodeuwedd and Lleu - Woman made out of flowers marries man who doesn't pay attention to her. Woman kills man. Man becomes eagle, and woman becomes owl. It's a tale as old as time. Yes, they NEED couples therapy. 1000/10

8. Arthur and Gwenhwyfar - Honestly, they kinda need it. There's no Lancelot, but Arthur is still an idiot. Plus, he has a list of worldly possessions that are super important to him, and his wife is like seventh. 5/10

9. Cai and Bedwyr - They do not need couples therapy. They just need naps because they're tired of dealing with Arthur's shit. 0/10

10. Peredur and Angharad - Manic pixie dream boy and exasperated golden-handed woman. They're also cousins? 6/10

11. Geraint and Enid - These two need therapy. Geraint so he can stop being an abusive sick and Enid because she's spent so long putting up with Geraint's dickishness. 10/10

12. Owain and Luned (and, by extension, the Lady of the Well) - Do they need therapy? Not they just need to work out their misunderstandings. Still, therapy would kinda benefit them. 4/10

13. Macsen and Elen - Roman Emperor who saw pretty lady in dream. He needs therapy. 7/10

14. Gwenhwyfar and Edern ap Nudd - MY GOD, THEY NEED THERAPY! Edern sending a dwarf to whip Gwen's lady? Edern whipping Geraint? Insulting the woman who is sometimes seen to be his lover? BRUH, 10/10

15. Gwyn ap Nudd and Creiddylad - Ehudjfjfjf Gwyn tries to kidnap Creiddylad and then is forced to fight for her. He kills a man in the battle that Creiddylad's fiancé wages to get her back and then makes the son of the man EAT HIS HEART?!?!? (Gwyn still has a cute dog, though) A million out of 10.

16. Dylan ail Don and the waves - 0/10. Dylan is in his lane. Moisturised. Flourishing. (Just don't do an Uncle Gofannon and smash his head in with a hammer.)

(This is supposed to be funny. Pls don't yell at me.)

[an-ruraiocht]

medieval author, slapping the roof of the fourth branch: this bad boy can fit so much incest in it

(from katherine millersdaughter "the geopolitics of incest: sex, gender and violence in the fourth branch of the mabinogi", exemplaria 14.2)

[llyfrenfys]

Angry Celticist moment - but istg the amount of times I type Mabinogi into Google and it fucking autofills to 'Mabinogi game' or type in Epona and I end up with Link's horse instead of the Celtic deity is going to drive me up the wall. Something about the mass marketability of anything vaguely Celtic which prioritises capital over the provision of information regarding a subject.

Grumble over, just had to yell a bit. Anyway, I was researching Gwydion and Gilfaethwy if anyone's curious

[margridarnauds]

Do you think there's any significance in the different way that magic is portrayed in the fourth branch of The Mabinogi? I don't have a specific take, I just think it's kind of interesting that in the first three branches magic is this kind of wild force that people try to grapple with, and then in the last branch it turns to focusing on super competent magic users.

Mark Williams has talked a little bit about this in an article, "Magic and Marvels", in the Cambridge History of Welsh Literature (which you cannot find here, absolutely not), though it's more in general.

For me, personally? I lean into the idea that it marks the Fourth Branch as essentially representing a world gone to Hell. We see magic in the First Branch wielded by Arawn, and it's...fine? It's otherworldly, but Pwyll benefits from it. Second Branch, the Cauldron, but Bendigeidfrân himself isn't really a sorcerer per se. Third Branch, Gwawl's ex boyfriend whose name I never really bother to remember. (I looked it up and it's Llwyd. I am going to promptly forget this information.)

But in the Fourth Branch, you have all this magic being used and...it's almost always unsettling. Especially when Gwydion is using it. Math is a sorceror as well, but the two most notable examples of his sorcery we see are (1) the transformation of Gwydion and Gilfaethwy and (2) the creation of Blodeuedd, along with Gwydion, both of which are...uneasy moments.

I don't think the moral of the Fourth Branch is "magic = evil", but I think the use of magic underscores the kind of dark, uneasy atmosphere that permeates the Fourth Branch. (Especially since the magic is always being used by men in power.)

[god-of-annwn]

Arianrhod, Welsh goddess of the moon and stars

From the Welsh, arian = silver and rhod = wheel; taken as meaning the full moon

Arianrhod is mentioned in the Fourth Branch of the Mabinogion as the daughter of Dôn and sister of Gwydion and Gilfaethwy. She gives birth to two sons: Dylan ail Don and Lleu Llaw Gyffes.

[just-made-to-comment]

There is no pagan version of Arthurian legend.

There is no pagan version of Arthurian legend. The oldest mention we have of Arthur is from the 6th century at the EARLIEST. That is already post christianisation. However, some stories do include pagan gods or euhemerised versions of them.

However, there is a polytheïstic version. Diu Crône has multiple deïties that exist within its pages, like Lady Fortune, who may be Fortuna, her son Luck. She is explicitly called a goddess, and rules Ordohorht. Giramphiel also is a goddess, and is a villain, opposing Gawain. Throughout the pages of Diu Crône, Lady Fortune acts as a sort of patron deïty of Gawain. Gawain is a polytheïst, and polytheïsm is true within the narrative of Diu Crône. However, Jesus is also praised by characters who know Lady Fortune is real. This suggests that the narrative of Diu Crône is Christopagan in terms of lore.

Then let's talk about the work that started it all: Geoffrey of Monmouth's Historiä Regum Brittaniäe. Geoffrey includes the goddess Diäna in an earliër bit of his book where Brutus of Troy sails to Britain, beïng one of the first people to ever go there, and also founds London, calling it "New Troy." In this bit, he has a vision after sleeping in her temple that commands him to go to Britain and found a city.

Next, euhemerisation is the origin of a few characters. First, Mabon is Maponos, he shows up in "Culhwch and Olwen". Modron is also clearly Matrona. If you apply the sound changes from the Celtic language these names come from, Maponos becomes Mabon, and Matrona Modron. Then, Griflet is probably Gilfaethwy. His father, Do, is just Dôn in French, who is equivalent to Danu. Ydier's father is just what "Nodens" becomes in Welsh, (Irish Nuada). These are a bunch of originally gods but in the story they are mortal humans.

If you've ever read Sir Orfeo, you'd know how they refer to the Greek gods:

His fader was comen of King Pluto, And his moder of King Juno,    That sum time were as godes yhold For aventours that thai dede and told.

Also this is basically what Saxo did with Norse Mythology. This happened within Welsh sources too in the case of Arthurian legend. Culhwch and Olwen is a Welsh source, and yes he does show up as Mabuz in Lanzelet, so he's not some Welsh-exclusive figure like Culhwch. There's a bunch of weird stuff in Welsh Myth. Math fab Mathonwy baptises people. He is also around when people first get pigs from the fairies, so that would place it roughly 6,500 BCE as when Math is ruling Gwynedd.

The stories of Arthur are set at the very least after 410, because it has to be after the Roman withdrawal, and before 700, because by then the Anglo Saxons had already marched past the Severn which is the western border of Logres, which is Arthur's kingdom, although Pengwern was actually east of the Severn and they fought against the Loegrians according to Canu Heledd, but then again that's further east anyways, so that should just push then end time back further. Look, apart from Monty Python, it's always Sub-Roman Britain. By then it was thoroughly Christiän, yes, there was some paganish beliefs, but that would probably be categorised as folk Christianity which is still Christiänity, and people believed in fairies but fairies were conceptualised in a Christian cosmology where they basically were between heaven and hell in some way.

Actually. There probably is a pagan version written by somebody in the modern day. People never stopped writing it, and it's basically fanfiction all the way down anyway.

[finnlongman]

I love first draft typos that I've somehow missed on every other read-through. Apparently Gilfaethwy has multiple heads, given his ability to incline heads, pl., towards people. Fascinating.

[dragonnan]

No fucking clue why this suddenly crossed my mind but, for the record, AO3 didn't invent MPREG. The trope has existed for centuries.

It has cycled around on media such as:

Television:

Star Trek Enterprise; "Unexpected" Star Trek DS9; Vilix'pran's species Alien Nation; Newcomer males Babylon 5; Narn males Doctor Who; Face of Boe, the Gifftan species Mork & Mindy; Mork The Orville; Moclans species Quantum Leap; Sam Beckett

Film:

"Junior" (1994) "Enemy Mine" (1985) "Turnabout" (1940)

Myth:

Loki Zeus King Yuvanashwa of Ayodhya Gwydion and Gilfaethwy Aakulujjuusi and Uumarnituq The Sumerian water god Enki

These are just a fraction of many examples but I find it really fascinating. As a social discussion it makes for really incredible stories and I think its okay to enjoy them without shame or embarrassment. Squick factor will vary for the individual and there's also nothing wrong if it isn't everyone's cup of tea. Some of it I like and some isn't for me. It all depends on the story. I think there's this notion that all mpreg is written by "overly horny teenage girls" and while maybe some is I would bet the bulk of it is likely written by whole entire adults. Also I've read many of these types of stories that aren't even really about the... canine... attributes. Rather, the focus is a reflection of the way women have been controlled, exploited, abused, etc throughout history. In this alternate universe format it brings those issues strongly into focus. For me that's a tremendous draw.

Anyway, never thought I'd be writing a defense of mpreg post but here we are!

[jeweled-blue-eyes]

And here we have the son of lleu

What do you think the tigers Medraut sent Lleu be called?

Gilfaethwy and Gwydion :3

[ofdeedsglorious]

Taliesin made sure to never linger in the lands surrounding Math's great hall, nor in the hall itself.

He was bound, spiritually, to serve the line of Mathonwy through a life debt he owed them. And so when he was in the areas where their influence was strongest he had to obey anything they may wish of him. A horrible experience, for a bard whose spirit was as free as the winds he followed, ever seeking the Awen.

When Math was alone, none of his kin near, Taliesin often visited.

There was no grudge in his heart against the family, but he was not interested in dealing with the whims of others. But Math hardly asked more of him than music on those visits. But the great lord's kin? Oh, Taliesin could hardly stand to be around when they were there. Arianrhod was willful, prideful. Gwydion and his twin were worse, with something dark in the heart of Gilfaethwy in particular. And the youngest for a time, Amaethon, was foolhardy and naive.

So Taliesin hardly bothered to linger or indeed to even visit.

The longest he ever remained was during the time immediately after Gwydion's punishment was lifted. All to teach music, for Taliesin refused to take him as a proper student.

He did, after all, have his own pride.

[joemerl]

"You RAPE Goewin? You force yourself on her in Math's own bed? Oh! Oh! Incestuous animal sex for nephews! Incestuous animal sex for nephews for Three Successive Years!!!!"

[gingersnaptaff]

So something interesting I’ve learned, is that apparently in fifteenth and sixteenth century bardic tradition, Arianrhod took the place of Goewin as Math’s footholder. Meaning In some variant of the story, which is mostly lost to us nowadays, it was Arianrhod was Math’s footholder and was raped by Gwydion and Gilfaethwy; it’s possible that Goewin was a later addition, or from a different tradition, or that in some version Arianrhod succeeded Goewin as Math’s footholder. Just wanted to know your thoughts on this.

Hi anon! 😊 Oh!!! I've heard of this, yeah, and I've always found it fascinating as to why precisely Aranrhod is used in place of Goewin. I think all three are possible and it makes much more sense why Aranrhod is so pissed off that Gwydion is insisting she acknowledge Lleu. I've talked about the fact I think Aranrhod was raped by Gwydion before and that's why she's so pissed off - which, honestly, I Do Not blame her for being at all! - and I do think it makes much more sense if she did succeed Goewin as Math's footholder.

I think it's possible that perhaps Goewin was from one telling of the legend and Aranrhod from another and the author smashed them together. That makes sense as to why Goewin and Gilfaethwy suddenly dip out of the story after Lleu is born. It's a bit like Dylan Ail Don being a minor God from Gwynedd who got lumped into the stories, the author was like 'Ooh, I'll whack him in and then pinch from here.' Like bards - unless they were Big Boi Bards like Taliesin - weren't static. They wandered about. It's perfectly possible they heard one tale from say Gwynedd and another from Deheubarth and thought 'Right, I'll mash them up to One Ultimate Branch like they're a Megazord.'

Plus, it's possible those fifteenth and sixteenth-century bards were drawing from other retellings lost to us because, hey, we haven't a clue as to why - say it with me - Gofannon bludgeoned Dylan Ail Don to death. We've no idea why the fuck Llŷr got imprisoned by Euroswydd either. Or - again, say it with me - whether Arthur had to go on a quest to get Gwenhwyfar like Culhwch did for Olwen. There are so many tantalising bits and bobs the Mabinogion references that were have no access to and every day I get a little closer to constructing a time machine to find out why.

Anyways, you should all stan Aranrhod and Goewin. I'm serious. They have to put up with so much shit in the fourth branch. I want to punch Gwydion, Math, and Gilfaethwy SO HARD.

Anyway, thank u for the question, anon!!! 💜 I hope my ramblings make sense. I loved this question so much!

[oidheadh-con-culainn]

okay this fic i'm writing is not nearly as cursed as it could be given the subject matter but i DID name the document "gwydion and gilfaethwy's special brotherly bonding time" and it is going to be a struggle not to keep that as the title

sorry

[jewfrogs]

hey. the welsh myth of gilfaethwy and gwydion. whats up with that