#GaGaOOLaLa

[emotionallychargedtowel]

subtitle translation, language-centricity, and what support should or shouldn't look like in an LGBTQ+ fan space

I have some thoughts on the discussion that has erupted based on a post by @watchthisqqq regarding Gaga's announced plan to expand their use of AI subtitles. The thread of replies on that post is getting long, though, so I thought starting a post of my own was the way to go.

To summarize the discussion so far:

A lot of folks have made important points already. @twig-tea clarified the announcement, raised concerns about the precedent it sets, but pointed out that it's a good thing they're being transparent. @italianpersonwithashippersheart pointed out that more information on the way the AI in question was trained and its energy usage would be important in order to gauge its impact and that making content accessible across more languages is, of course, important as well. @my-rose-tinted-glasses noted that there's significant reason to believe Gaga has already used AI subs previously and noted that it's reasonable for consumers not to want to patronize a business that doesn't make offering decent subs in their language a priority. @lurkingshan noted that competing platforms are already using AI subs as well and reported seeing other calls for action against Gaga that didn't seem proportional given the much larger companies that engage in the same practices people criticize Gaga for, including the use of AI subs. @wei-ying-kexing-apologist noted that Viki's use of volunteer-based subtitles is also a questionable business practice, suggested communicating with Gaga directly about this issue made more sense than considering a boycott, and noted MDL's apparent exclusion of references to Gaga as evidence of a lack of respect for the platform in fandom.

Before I start talking about my own viewpoint here, I want to stress that I think there's very little actual disagreement happening here. I think all of the points of view I mentioned above could actually be consistent with one another if framed in the right way. Everyone involved in this conversation so far has very similar values and goals. We're all supportive of the work Gaga does and none of us take the idea of being critical of them lightly, much less taking action that could prove harmful to them.

First off, I agree that taking action to start some kind of boycott effort is premature at best. I also hear the sound arguments people are making against engaging in a boycott even if other efforts to influence Gaga on this issue end up failing. I wouldn't fault @watchthisqqq for simply mentioning the possibility, however. I thought they made it clear in their post that they were still at the stage of considering potential action and inviting input on how best to pursue that, not putting forward a defined plan or making a call to action.

I think we should keep in mind that just mentioning the word "boycott" is not likely to harm a business. Boycotts are notoriously difficult to put into action. Even if a campaign to boycott Gaga were justified and advisable, it wouldn't be likely to gain many participants or yield significant results. At the same time, when we take any sort of action to try to change the business practices of some kind of corporate entity, the fact that we have the power to take our business elsewhere is always a part of that, whether it's spoken or not. Even filling out a comment form to state our opposition to the use of AI subtitles is an action that only has the potential to make an impact because Gaga, like any business, knows that keeping customers happy is necessary if they're going to maintain, much less gain, a certain number of subscribers. In other words, the potential threat of losing business is inevitably part of any attempt on the part of consumers to change a business's practices whether the word "boycott" is used or not.

I agree with @wei-ying-kexing-apologist that Viki should be paying their subtitlers and that not doing so is not a sound or optimally ethical business practice. That being said, I think it takes agency away from the volunteers who work on Viki subs unjustifiably if we don't acknowledge that they choose freely to participate in creating subtitles and doubtless get a great deal of satisfaction from that participation. As someone who has worked on a fansub myself, I can attest that when you care enough about a piece of media to put in the necessary effort to create or co-create subtitles, what you want more than anything is for those subtitles to make that piece of media accessible to the broadest possible audience while maintaining accuracy toward the source material. One of the biggest differences between making a fansub and volunteering to create subs for Viki is that in the latter case, someone is profiting from the work of subtitlers. And that's absolutely important. But another salient difference is the fact that Viki subs reach a much wider audience than any fansub possibly could, which again is something that is of great value to those of us who create subtitles out of love for a particular show. I have actually considered participating in Viki's crowdsourced subtitle projects myself because of the potential impact they have. There's a lot more we could say about this complex topic, and maybe it's worthy of its own discussion. But personally, I don't think it's comparable to using AI subs for a multitude of reasons, including environmental impact and the resulting quality of the subs.

@wei-ying-kexing-apologist also made an interesting observation about Gaga being omitted from MDL listings as a streaming source in their post. I'm not entirely convinced that it's germane to this discussion. But I do think it's important to note, so I devoted a separate post to talking about it.

I think @lurkingshan's point about other services' use of AI subs is important to keep in mind. We should be taking care to apply criteria consistently. I'm not surprised that this need would stand out to a fellow social scientist like Shan, since we've had that kind of consistency drilled into us as an integral part of any legitimate effort to learn about the world. That said, I don't think this point necessarily in any way lessens the importance of responding to Gaga's AI announcement (not that I think Shan is saying that either). I'm going to circle back to this point a bit later.

I want to particularly highlight what @my-rose-tinted-glasses wrote about her experiences with Gaga's existing subtitles and her strong belief that they are already using AI-generated material. This is especially important to pay attention to as it is something that's highly likely to be invisible to those of us who are native English speakers unless we are highly fluent in another language and watch shows with subtitles in that language.

I don't know firsthand what it's like to be involved in the tumblr QL community as someone for whom English is a second (or third, fourth, etc.) language. But I've noticed that my friends who fall into this category rarely mention that fact in their posts and tend not to bring it up in private conversations until I've gotten to know them rather well. I even have some tumblr mutuals I consider real friends who have never specified what country they're from or reside in currently. (And I don't ask! If they want to tell me, they will.)

There are exceptions to this, of course. Some folks who aren't native Anglophones are very upfront about where they're from. But it's something I've seen a lot, enough that I started making a specific effort not to assume English is someone's first language or that they live in an Anglophone country unless and until that's confirmed (something I realize now I shouldn't have been doing in the first place). I've also noticed that even when folks mention that they're from a non-English speaking country, they often avoid mentioning which one specifically. That's their right, naturally. I don't mean to imply that anyone should be obligated to do so. But I think it raises the possibility that people might be concerned that they'll be scrutinized, judged, stereotyped, or pigeonholed if they mention their home country/country of origin. If that is a concern, it's probably based on their lived experience and not something to be taken lightly. As a result, I'm pretty sure that the issues with subtitles in non-English languages on sites like Gaga aren't as likely to be discussed in spaces where native Anglophones tend to dominate the space as they would be under different circumstances, even when the people in question are fluent English speakers who are more than capable of discussing those issues with us in English.

Of course, native Anglophone folks like myself don't just get to take up more space in places like the tumblr QL fan community. We also get our subtitle needs prioritized again and again. As with most forms of privilege, we didn't ask to be given this status, but we still have it and benefit from it and have an obligation to do everything we can to make things more equitable for those who don't share that status. Another way that this resembles other forms of privilege is the fact that it's largely invisible to us unless we make a point of looking for it. Occasionally circumstances will highlight it. For example, sometimes fansubs in other languages pop up for a new show while English ones don't. We might be tempted to complain before it dawns on us that we're just briefly being put in a position that non-Anglophone folks are put in on a constant basis.

I find it highly likely that English subtitles are not only more widely available but also, on average, more likely to be of decent quality. It's not hard to see how, as @my-rose-tinted-glasses's post suggests, English subtitles would also be less likely to be obviously AI-generated. For this reason, I think the native Anglophone folks among us need to be really wary of basing any assumptions about subtitles, whether it relates to quality, the likelihood AI was used in their production, or other matters, on our experiences with English subs—unless, of course, we confine ourselves to commenting on our experiences as English speakers only.

Getting back to what @my-rose-tinted-glasses said: I trust Rose's judgment on this, particularly since she has said that she has a high degree of certainty in this case. If, as she contends, Gaga is already using AI subs, what appeared to be praiseworthy transparency in their recent announcement is...not so praiseworthy. Some transparency is better than none, certainly. But if they make an announcement like this without noting current or past AI use, it's somewhat dishonest by omission.

I said above that I would come back to the point @lurkingshan made about comparing Gaga to other streaming services and her observation that she has seen people seemingly holding Gaga to a more stringent standard than other services, including calls to boycott. I don't want to detract from her salient point about consistency. There's no point in trying to engage in anything resembling "ethical consumption" if we aren't consistent in how we apply our criteria. It would clearly be indefensible to suggest that any action, whether in the form of a boycott or something else, be taken against Gaga for doing the same things other services do while ignoring their harmful practices.

But there's another side of this, I think. Gaga's specific mission to offer LGBTQ+ content and their status as a Taiwan-based business are both salient reasons to support them. I want to be very clear here: I don't think anyone involved in the subtitle discussion has advocated unwavering, unqualified support for GagaOOLaLa or suggested lowering our standards where they are concerned. But I do think that there's a temptation in conversations like this one, that kind of hangs around under the surface, to feel protective toward an explicitly LGBTQIA-oriented business in a way that could make it hard to criticize them. And falling prey to that would be a real mistake.

I believe that Gaga's commitment to the LGBTQ+ community is sincere and that the value they place on community voices is the best possible reason to support them. But their alliance with the community isn't a reason to spare them criticism. I actually think that in some ways, as long as we aren't engaging in the kind of inconsistency Shan cautions us against, it makes sense to hold them to a higher standard than we would other streaming services. This is partly because if they want our loyalty as members of the queer community they owe it to us to act in consistency with our values. That's not so different from our reasons for holding other services accountable. But I think it may be part of the reason queer community members are sometimes more unsparing when it comes to Gaga than bigger, more faceless corporations. The results can still be misguided, but I think the impulse is understandable.

But what's more important, I think, is that just as we would speak up if a friend was making a harmful choice, we owe it to organizations we value to speak out when we think they're headed in the wrong direction. Personally, I'd like to see efforts to push back against Gaga's AI usage framed more in those terms.

[mygwenchan]

About this whole Gagaoolala using AI for translations thing... I think I have a bit of a different standpoint when it comes to AI, since my job includes Online Marketing and also writing product texts and creating product images.

These days it's really hard to avoid AI, even if you want to. I have the direct comparison of using human made translations vs using an app. The human made ones might be more accurate, but they take MUCH longer and cost half a fortune. On the other hand, I can simply take my texts, throw them into an app and have the translations ready within seconds. Then go over them with some basic language knowledge and 5 minutes later I'm done with that task.

I really can't blame a smaller company like Gagaoolala for using AI. I mean, even the really big companies use it. Amazon for example has recently introduced a new AI that is designed to "improve" product listings. I spent about 2 hours yesterday going through all the suggested changes to my products. Let's just say they were worse than the latest Gelboys subs....

Anyway, my point is AI can be useful or it can cause more trouble than it's worth. Kind of depends on how you use it and what for. In Gagaoolala's case, if you really want them to hire human translators, a boycott is not the answer. Instead you'd have to be willing to A) pay more for your subscription and B) be willing to wait for subtitles. So no more comments like "Where are the subtitles, the series released 2 hours ago!". But if you're not willing to be patient and pay more, the only real alternative is to contact Gagaoolala and to tell them that in the near future human made translations could become their USP (unique selling point). They could actually gain a lot of new customers if they're clever and use that info for their marketing.

[heretherebedork]

Don't change your body wash. You smell good. - thinking of @absolutebl as always

[scrumptiousstuffs]

🤣🤣🤣 - yup, the Gaga00Lala is pushing ahead with the MPREG Style agenda

(Do you think Joong will approve?)

[mysterygrl20]

oh gaga admin…

[watchthisqqq]

First I appreciate all the feedback! There a lot of things I did not know.

My focus was on gaga because I use that streaming website. I also use viki but I’ve had less of an issue with their translation. I did not know they use volunteer translators though. I agree this is a broader issue than just with gaga. The questions remains:

Do we as a community want to take action on the bad or potentially worsening translations? That can be an organized boycott or campaign of sending feedback. We can focus on companies other than gaga though that would mean accepting their translations as they are now. I am currently not IQIQY subscriber but I’d be willing to adjust.

There seems to be unanimous no on boycotting gaga but I’ve seen some people saying they will message the company. Do we want to make that a joint effort?

This is a different topic but based on the posts there seems to also be an issue in the amount of support gagaoolala receives. That MyDramaList does not say what shows stream on gaga is super messed up. I don’t think addressing the translation issue has to be in opposition to supporting the company (though yes that rules out boycotting).

I became aware through @italianpersonwithashippersheart that Gagaoolala plan on using AI for there translations in the future. My immediate reaction was to boycott

a) because I am opposed to ai in general

b) selfishly the idea that translation would become worse than they already are is ridiculous to me.

My thinking would be send them a message stating our opposition to them changing to AI. If they do not reverse that decision that we would boycott by x date. Get a general number of how many people would boycott so that they would see the financial repercussions.

What are people’s thoughts on this idea? Also do we have info on whether viki, iqiyi or other streaming sites already use ai translations? Realized that the tumblr ql community is probably pretty small. Does twitter or instagram have a larger ql community?

[xxtraspoiledfujoshi]

I need more of them!! Please don’t let Kiseki be the end 😭 I want to fall in love with them all over again

[takeadeepbreathandexist]

The Gagaoolala admin is a menace and I love them dearly

[feychild1225]

so it looks like Lita Koi special is going to be this weekend, and I am sat for it.

[absolutebl]

Top 10 Best BLs on Gagaoolala

My Beautiful Man AKA Utsukushii Kare

Japan 2021

One of the most Japanese BLs to release in the last decade, as weird and as messed up as any 2000s yaoi: emo af and hella warped, entirely true to itself with no attempt made to modify its POV for modern sensibilities or current BL fandom. It used seriously old school problematic and kinky tropes, like whipping boy, for a truly uncompromising piece that also manages to hit up themes of communication, consent, and self acceptance. It’s a wonderful BL but uniquely dirty and harsh, in the best possible way - Japanese cinema, uncompromising.

I lost my ever loving mind over the ending. This show won the Grand Prix “My Best TV Award” at the 16th Galaxy Awards.

Minato's Laundromat AKA Minato Shouji Coin Laundry

Japan 2022

A classic age gap romance where a high school student pursues the man of his dreams (who runs a laundromat). This BL is so steeped in yaoi nostalgia, not to mention a classic romance arc, that it will overload some, but those of us who love this genre for its DNA will adore it. It made me very happy because it did everything I want a BL to do - there’s not much more I could ask of a show than this. It’s the closest Japan has come to perfect live action yaoi since Seven Days (and I never make that comparison lightly).

Squee watch-along here.

My Ride

Thai 2022

Thai BL grew up with this pulp (the first ever to make my end of year top 10). It’s a truly lovely and special little show featuring the extremely rare pairing of sunshine/sunshine (AKA a cinnamon roll couple) plus mature explorations of relationships using one of the softest, sweetest, and most innocent friends to lovers vehicles. Kindly, overworked doctor meets broken-hearted motorcycle taxi driver in an “other side of the tracks” slow burn romance. The support cast is excellent, making for great friendship groups and family dynamics. With honest queer rep that adds to, but doesn’t impede, the story, and genuine conversation about the nature of class, wealth, and classism, not to mention communication, honesty, and respect for boundaries, you can’t go wrong with this show. In other news, I am a sucker for a single dimple.

Takara & Amagi AKA Takara-kun to Amagi-kun

Japan 2022 I gnawed on my knuckles and squealed a lot with this BL. Reserved cool kid who must learn to communicate to keep the tiny disaster nugget he’s madly in love with. It is beyond charming: soft and gentle, packed with cuteness and high school angst, thirst, & yearning. Was there plot? Not really. Was it emotionally tense and paced well enough for me not to notice? Absolutely. Did I enjoy the hell out of it? Oh yes.

Kiseki: Dear to Me

Taiwan 2023

The plot is totally ridiculous and slightly unhinged, but that’s normal for Taiwan. It involves all the tropes under a very casual framework of gay mafia gangs + food = love. Absolutely every character is queer. There’s a gum-ball machine of cameos, elder gay rep, great chemistry from all pairs, and a KILLER side couple. As a result Kiseki is a poster child for Taiwanese BL, and I happen to love Taiwanese BL. Bonus? They also managed to END IT WELL, which we cannot expect from Taiwan.

My Personal Weatherman AKA Taikan Yoho

Japan 2023

This style of live action yaoi really only works from Japan. Basically: boys who fell in love in college end up living together but both are so repressed they actually don't realize they're in love. It's higher heat than we usually get from Japan's HEA stuff, and that part is also very well done, but it leaned into the "why don't they just talk for fuck's sake?" trope which is only exacerbated into undiluted frustration by the fact that they're already fucking. It's great, but watching requires more patience than usual, even for Japan.

Our Dining Table AKA Bokura no Shokutaku

Japan 2023

A lonely salaryman and talented cook gets accidentally adopted by a college kid and his little brother. I was always gonna love this show if they stuck to the manga (which is very dear to my heart). And they did, paralleling it almost exactly. It’s a quiet & cozy little parable of found family alleviating loneliness. Possibly too slow for some but definitely high up there for me as the best of what Japan can do with softness (like Restart After Come Back Home). It’s only flaw (if I dare say such a thing) is that it is not really “romantic.” Lovely & sweet but the romance beats are being used to build a family relationship, not just couple intimacy, but that's OK with me. This is a very safe show for anyone to watch.

Step By Step

Thai 2023

This was Thailand’s answer to The New Employee, and everything I loved about that show I loved about this one. This office romance between a stern boss and sweet subordinate felt more authentic to cubical work than previous Thai BLs of this ilk. That authenticity added tension to the narrative and its characters development (how novel). I also really enjoyed the charming side characters and the brothers' relationship to each other (although I could have done without that brother's side BL).

Long Time No See

Korea (Strongberry) 2017

Catfishing assassins on either side of a turf war who fall in love not knowing they are on opposite sides. Or do they? Suspenseful plot, good fight sequences, mature characters, hot sexitimes and even hotter beating the shit out of each other and kissing while covered in blog (this came from KOREA?), plus an HEA. One of the hidden gems of the BL genre.

About Youth

Taiwan 2022

A truly lovely little coming of age high school BL with a classic YA low drama but high angst and an earnest depth. I didn’t even mind the singing, and that’s saying a lot. A weak seme/uke dynamic but tons of BL tropes (both rare in a high school setting but common for Taiwan) makes this one feel both sweet and colored by real world authenticity and grit.

Some of these shows ALSO appeared on Viki or iQIYI, but these BLs will appear only once on these round up posts (here for Gaga), not on the other platforms top 10.

(source)

This list updated Spring 2024, not responsible for cool stuff that aired on Gaga (or was taken off the platform) after that date.

This is part of a series more here:

[emotionallychargedtowel]

Gaga's notable omission from MDL

I'm working on a post in response to a discussion that has sprung up about Gaga's announcement that they plan to start using AI-generated subtitles for certain languages. I'll have that up pretty soon, but in the meantime, I wanted to post about something that came up in that discussion.

@wei-ying-kexing-apologist noted in their contribution to that conversation that references to GagaOOLaLa as a potential source for watching QL series are consistently absent from MyDramaList. I hadn't noticed this before, and I found it really interesting. I don't actually think it's very pertinent to the subtitle discussion, for reasons that I'll talk about below. But I do think it's important.

The fact that this omission is so consistent (even 25 ji Akasaka de, a Gaga co-production, doesn't list them as a potential place to watch that series!) suggests some kind of official (but not publicly stated) policy on the part of MDL. A lot of the information on that site comes from fans, but it isn't always reflective of fan sentiment. Important parts of the listings for each show, including the section at the top of each page that lists places to watch a series, seem to be controlled by the people running the site, or at least to involve limited options for fan contributors that have been set by site administrators. If you look at the comments on any listing of a QL series that airs on Gaga, you'll almost always find someone mentioning that it's available there, so site users are still talking about that platform. They just aren't able to get that information into the main listing at the top of a show's page. And that matters! Knowledgeable MDL users know to look beyond the information at the top of each page, but more casual ones are unlikely to do so. If they see that they can watch a show on another platform, such as iQiyi, and don't see Gaga listed, they'll be more likely to use the other platform. This is likely to have an appreciable effect on Gaga's bottom line.

Given all of this, I don't think Gaga's omission from those listings is at all reflective of a lack of respect for Gaga in the QL fan community (which was @wei-ying-kexing-apologist's stated basis for mentioning it in relation to the subtitle discussion). It seems far more likely that there's a policy in place at MDL that is excluding them from being listed as a streaming source. I'm particularly convinced of the likelihood of this because when I did a search of the MDL forums for posts mentioning GagaOOLaLa, I found numerous posts requesting that Gaga be added as an "approved viewing site/channel" but whenever I clicked a link that would take me to those posts, I was sent to either a "page not found" message or a page with nothing whatsoever on it. The fact that those posts were partially scrubbed also raises the question of how many other posts may have been entirely deleted so that they didn't show up in my search.

It makes sense that MDL would have a policy about which sites can be officially listed as sources for watching a series. If they didn't, people could post links to any gray site on the internet, and MDL could be implicated in piracy, something with potential legal consequences. But it's clear that they've refused to list Gaga as a legitimate source despite requests from numerous site users and despite its being completely legal and above-board. They're even deleting people's request posts asking for the site to be added. That's downright suspicious.

I'll hold off on speculating here about the reasons this might be the case. Suffice it to say that there are plenty of possibilities that come to mind given political considerations involving Taiwan and perhaps even their specific LGBTQ+ focus. But I don't think I have sufficient background knowledge to comment in detail about either of those possibilities.

You could make a case that all of this is still pertinent to the subtitle discussion, in a way. For example, you could say that since Gaga is already at a disadvantage because of this MDL policy, we should make even more of an effort to support them and overlook it when they engage in practices we disagree with. But personally, I remain convinced that this isn't something we should put much focus on when we look at the subtitle issue. That's not to downplay the importance of the problem. In fact, it's worth asking whether we should consider applying the kinds of pressure to MDL regarding their Gaga policy that folks have discussed applying to Gaga regarding their subtitle policy. MDL users have already tried going through the channels they're supposed to use and have been resoundingly ignored. Maybe it's time for other tactics.

[bl-bam-beyond]

LOVE IN THE AIR - KOI NO YOKAN (2024, JAPAN ADAPTATION)

Episode 1

Gagaoolala Premiere 11/2/2024

Screenplay and Directed By: Tomori Atsuki

Rei (HAMAYA TAKUTO) meets the much lauded Arashi (NAGUMO SHOMA) officially and remembers him. But Arashi doesn't remember Rei. Or does he?

@pose4photoml @just-another-boyslove-blog @negrowhat @absolutebl @wanderlust-in-my-soul

[hughungrybear]

In hindsight, it seems trivial: the reason why Ayaka fell in love with Hiroko in the first place.

But if you put things into perspective, Hiroko gave Ayaka something she apparently has been missing her whole life — a motivation to smile and have fun, regardless of the circumstances. Hiroko brought colour and spark into Ayaka's life and sometimes, that's enough reason to fall in love.

[tortibomb]

GagaOOlala is definitely worth the money right now. I’ve watched a lot of series off air there lately but also the current shows airing. Keep on giving us the goods Gaga.

[heretherebedork]

The back of the neck kisses that wrecked them both.

[sunspotmangafan]

Some great promotion honestly lmaooooo

Well done GagaOOLala it gave me a big laugh.