#EXU: Nein series When

[soath]

"exu: calamity should be done by the studio that animated arcane" okay, sure, easy pull. EYE think that downfall can only be properly handled by cartoon saloon. no one else knows how to capture space and break the bounds of dimensionality and perspective like they do. no other animation studio can do the interplay of horrific modern dystopia vs. ancient magics long suppressed. no one else could correctly pull off a sequences that's just Shapes and Light. no one else can be trusted to deploy a tactical symbolic halo. imagine panning out to see all of aeor from a raven's eye or ten-thousand rats', a city flattened into mere brutalist squares against the sky. imagine the artwork becoming something more abstract, more stylized, like an illuminated manuscript or papercut art laid over the background world as mortality fades and the gods take over.

[mareastrorum]

Been chewing more on how C3 wound up here. What’s throwing me is the strange shift from the cast’s unflinching “yes, and” game in C2 to a misplaced feeling that they need to choose correctly in C3.

I want to be clear here that this isn’t a criticism post because I genuinely don’t know what’s happening here. It’s just odd behaviors that seem to signal a problem, and I don’t know what solution would resolve it. I’m not going to be so presumptuous as to hypothesize about any cast member’s thoughts.

In the Cooldown for C3E118 (and offhandedly previously), Laura and Ashley expressed some nervousness about making big decisions because they’re worried about making the “wrong” choice. Without more, that attitude alone would explain much of the party’s indecisiveness about key campaign questions. After all, their characters are the two Ruidusborn of most interest to the campaign villains, and other characters (especially Orym, Laudna, and Ashton) have insisted that Imogen and Fearne take the lead on Predathos.

But this isn’t a story in a vacuum. C2 got completely derailed multiple times. The Mighty Nein decided to steal a pirate ship and leave the continent the campaign was set on; shortly after they returned, they decided to reopen a collapsed tunnel to go the opposite side of the continent; then Caleb returned the Luxon Beacon and made themselves heroes of an enemy nation instantly. That’s not even getting into the fact that Molly died before the Nein got to Shadycreek Run (which absolutely would have been all about his backstory) or that Twiggy left an incredible magical artifact that wasn’t supposed to be given to the Nein. Each time, Matt adjusted and made it work. Granted, C2 was more of a sandbox campaign, but Matt demonstrated his flexibility as a DM time and again.

Like, as a general rule of thumb, DMs shouldn’t offer options that would torpedo the campaign. It’s rational to avoid situations that have a genuine possibility of undercutting the game. Matt has been DMing for a long time; he’s done a very good job of finding ways to make the campaign work regardless of the decisions the players make. Even when players do something directly against the signals he threw out (like Ashton trying to absorb a second shard despite consistent, dire warnings that it would kill him), he works with the players to come to a reasonable solution (Ashton survived but the shard wouldn’t take, and he got some character moments out of the failure). We, the audience, know Matt is good at pivoting when he needs to.

In addition to taking the players’ curveballs like a champ, Matt also takes big swings for the sake of the story. In C1, Matt broke his biggest city with a dragon invasion, then made a new god leading an undead titan to go stomp out the world’s oldest civilization. In C2, he let the players go off the map whenever and still made the digression relevant to their character arcs every time. Not to be parasocial, but if we can figure out that that Matt can handle this sort of thing, the players certainly have a better feel for it than us.

So what is going on in C3? We know Matt isn’t scared of breaking Exandria or destroying the pantheon: he set that possibility in motion as the default ending if the players did nothing. CR literally did a mini series about the start of the end of the world with EXU Calamity. Laura and Ashley were also in Downfall and making big choices between the gods and mortals. Breaking stuff is what they do!

Where did this idea that there’s a “wrong” choice come from? That type of thinking kills a lot of great improv, and the whole point of the “yes, and” exercise is to shake it off. While it’s incredibly obvious to say not to think that way, the real issue is sorting out why that mentality has taken hold at all. That’s a problem no amount of fan discussion is going to resolve.

[utilitycaster]

Given this campaign’s ups and downs and the current slate of CR programming, I’m curious what your outlook is on CR’s overall creative direction, especially going into a big anniversary? I mainly ask because you don’t seem to get bogged down in weird conspiracy theories about CR as a company nor do you act like CR producing other side projects is the root of campaign 3’s issues (like many disgruntled fans seem to - mostly reddit bros obsessed with viewership proving their points). You also seem to know your shit when it comes to creative direction in TTRPG content and have well founded critiques and complaints. 

I personally think a lot of what they've been doing is interesting, but I do sometimes wonder if I’m just prone to wanting to like what CR does because I'm a fan and want them to do well.

Hi anon!

First, thank you so much. I do not in fact know my shit re: creative direction and while I don't want to put them on the spot, several of my mutuals DO have considerably more knowledge of creative direction and production considerations than I do. They are just also better at keeping quiet and hedging their bets than I am. Anything I say that is correct re creative direction comes from a combination of avid reader who likes to analyze fiction/project management experience/common sense.

Honestly? I don't know if they'll do a campaign after this one (and it's possible they'll wrap up C3 before the 10th anniversary) but I think that the reason C3 is like this is because of the demands of a campaign that incorporates EXU Prime and past campaigns and the moon plot. I think Matt needed to run this the way Brennan runs D20 seasons and the cast was also expecting a campaign with the more open plotting of C1 or C2, and no one realized this until pretty far into the campaign. It is not too late to stick the landing of a messy campaign, though it's also not too late to totally fuck it up; but I think (and, to be fair, hope, because I'm also a fan and want them to do well) that the issues of Campaign 3 are contained within Campaign 3.

Part of why I think that is because the "side projects" have for the most part been successful! TLOVM looks great as does what little we've seen of the animated Nein series, the Daggerheart one-shots have been fun, I've loved Candela Obscura, Calamity and Downfall have been incredible, and while they're a lot more hands off with Midst what the cast has been involved with has been stellar. I do not think they are creatively tapped or exhausted and indeed had any of the above not been as strong I'd probably be easier on C3 since I would think it was a case of overextension. But as for C3, I think they just underprepped for a campaign that needed much more prep and awkwardly got stuck in it.

If they wrap up C3 a few months before the 10th anniversary and plan to do a fourth campaign, I'd say that would be a great time to announce it (though I'd recommend taking at least 3 months off if not more, as they have in the past). If it's still going or has just wrapped up, or if they don't plan to do a C4, I'd use that to announce an EXU or maybe some Nein show news and save that announcement for later.

[critter-genfic-events]

This week, we have thirteen angsty fics for you! Look under the cut, heed the warnings, and don't forget to comment or kudos if you like them!

our lives were never ours by vivolet (145817,Mature) Warnings: canon-typical violence, character death, implied/referenced suicide, implied/referenced torture, Pairings:

The Mighty Nein, but make it Hunger Games fusion.

Reccer says: Hunger Games AUs are a guilty pleasure of mine and I have such a soft spot for this series. It focuses on Yasha and Caduceus, so if you love those two and want lots of angst and torment and focus on their characters, this series has you covered. The level of detail, the continuity porn that utilizes every scrap of canon detail and puts it to use in a new setting, and the beautiful prose make it a compelling read. It will hurt your soul.

wild mountain thyme (among blooming heather) by Aurelie (NowImJustSomebodyThat) (8107,Teen) Warnings: None Pairings: Korrin/Vilya

Vilya's memories do not all come back at once

Reccer says: I love considering Vilya's story from her point of view, and the nonlinear narrative here is heartbreaking and beautiful

those that crawl and flutter towards the sun by vietbluecoeur (6163,Not Rated) Warnings: Major Character Death Pairings: Essek Thelyss & Jester Lavorre

AU; Essek's curiosity gets the better of him and he develops a friendship with a creature who only lives for three days. As that creature is Jester, she makes it memorable.

Reccer says: The worldbuilding is beautiful, the prose is gorgeous, and the tragedy is delicious.

the seed that falls on good ground by Ford_Ye_Fiji (1750,Teen) Warnings: Body Horror, Spiders Pairings:

While traveling with the Crownkeepers, Orym receives his own creepy crown dream.

Reccer says: I love Orym as an incorruptible beacon of light and I love it even more when he's being tempted. The angst is delicious.

a walk-on role in the script of your long, long grift by grayintogreen (1136,Teen) Warnings: None Pairings:

Cree delivers the threshold crest.

Reccer says: It's always a good time to feel sad about Cree.

come around when you break by maybetwice (3861,General) Warnings: None Pairings:

In the aftermath of the final fight in EXU, Opal gets taken care of.

Reccer says: I'm a sucker for stories where a sad character gets tended to by their friends and Opal went through A LOT in that last fight. She deserves to get pampered by all of her friends.

my devils they whisper in my ear, deafening me with all my fears (i'm living in a nightmare) by Ford_Ye_Fiji (12128,Mature) Warnings: Graphic Depictions of Violence, Disassociation, Suicidal Thoughts Pairings: Percival "Percy" Fredrickstein Von Musel Klossowski de Rolo III & Vox Machina

Scanlan does not destroy the pepperbox. For Percy it goes about as well as expected.

Reccer says: I liked it

One, Two, Switch-a-roo by Allise (3712,General) Warnings: Chronic Pain Pairings: Percival "Percy" Fredrickstein Von Musel Klossowski de Rolo III & Vox Machina, Keyleth & Vox Machina, Percival "Percy" Fredrickstein Von Musel Klossowski de Rolo III & Keyleth

Vox Machina manage to find some magical box that switches the body of whoever's closest. What happens when Keyleth and Percy get caught in the blast?

Reccer says: It's not that I want other people to deal with chronic pain, but there's something of a wish fulfillment in having someone else experience the pain and

From the Ocean to the Shore by commoncomitatus (7775,Teen) Warnings: None Pairings: Jester Lavorre & Mollymauk Tealeaf

A missing scene from C2E16 wherein Jester is hypervigilant about her friends going down and receives some much-needed comfort.

Reccer says: I love Jester angst and this fic has a unique perfectly Jester rhythm to the prose that makes it a fun read while still being very much in the vein of angst. If you like reading characters being sad but in a less gut-punching, visceral way, this is a fic for you.

the infinite grains of sand by jadeandquartz (1327,Teen) Warnings: None Pairings:

A look at Fearne's thoughts as she's forced to make That Decision.

Reccer says: The absolute tragedy of Fearne having to choose between which of her friends to revive is something I love seeing explored, and this fic does it so eloquently and true to Fearne's feyness.

the worst thing to happen by k_152 (2588,General) Warnings: Major Character Death Pairings:

The fight with Otohan ends with everyone but Imogen dead. She acts accordingly.

Reccer says: I LOVE a good Villain Arc story and this presents such an enticing what-if while also punching you in the feels.

i wont hurt you by dearestpiers (3038,General) Warnings: Vaguely suicidal thoughts; childhood illness; animal death; offscreen Nein deaths Pairings: Caduceus & Clay Family, Caduceus & Essek

An exploration of Caduceus's relationship with death, from childhood through meeting the Nein to long after.

Reccer says: I liked it

Home is Where the Heart Is by LessAttitudeMoreAltitude (1720,General) Warnings: Panic attacks, vomiting, self-harm, Caleb-typical self-esteem issues Pairings: Caleb & Essek, Caleb & Beau, brief mentions of all canon M9 romantic relationships

Caleb buys a house in Rexxentrum, but being alone there makes him panic.

Reccer says: I liked it

If you liked this rec list, follow along for more! We'll be posting a new list with a new theme each Monday. Want to make your own recs? Check out the rules, and then use the form to submit!

If you didn't get enough angst this week, next week we're going to have recs featuring Percy!

Then, we'll have fights, modern AU's, and cuddling!

Also, the last few rec lists have had errors in their word count and ratings - I just went back and fixed them. If you're looking for more, why not check them out?

[elliesgaymachete]

how would you suggest someone get into critical role if they don't know where to start

There’s a lot of things to take into consideration when starting CR because it’s A LOT of content so I’ll give you a few options, friend!

Option One: Start with Campaign 1. Vox Machina is the most plot driven and has the most classic fantasy hero archetypes. Pros- it’s complete, less episodes than campaign 2, sets the foundation for the world/story so you understand references in the later campaigns. Cons- the quality is kinda shit for most of the campaign, and the first 25 or so episodes are a little rough because there is another cast member that eventually leaves the group. Very little ashley johnson 😔 EDIT: Also it starts in the middle of things because it was an already ongoing dnd campaign that Geek and Sundry wanted to start streaming, so characters and relationships are already established versus c2 and c3 we start at the beginning of the story

Option two: Start with campign 2. The Mighty Nein’s story is more character driven, and they’re more of a ragtag group of misfits that kind of stumble into being heroes. Pros: it’s complete, much better quality the whole time, and no weird hiccups, the story itself stands alone from c1 so it’s easy to start with. Cons- you might miss some references to c1, and it’s more episodes than c1 so it’ll take longer to get through. Little ashley johnson but her character stays more relevant in her absences and eventually she’s back full time.

Option Three: say fuck it we ball and start with campaign 3. C3 is pretty plot driven like c1 but the characters are kind of ragtag misfits like c2, and it’s currently in progress. Pros- the least amount of episodes so you could catch up the most easily, episodes are the highest quality so far. The most Ashley Johnson, she’s here full time babey. Cons- a lot of backstory and plot is relevant to c1 and a liiittle bit to c2, and also some things from Exandria Unlimited (a short like 8 episode miniseries they did) so you might feel like you’re missing out on some things.

Alternatively: If you want the best way to catch up on Campaign 3 because it’s still airing, I would recommend watching The Legend of Vox Machina animated series. I think the 2 seasons that are out is more than enough to understand the most important callbacks. Then if you really care about having full context watch at least one episode of EXU, at least to know the characters. And then jumping into Campaign 3 should be no problem! You could also watch TLOVM and then jump into campaign 2, or watch TLOVM and then jump into campaign 1 where it leaves off (though things are a bit different and more fast paced in the show)

Other general tips/resources: Watch at 1.25 or 1.5 speed so you can get through the episodes faster. Critical Role Animated Recap exists for all of campaign 2 but it’s VERY vague. Like bare bones basic plot points. Written recaps are also available on the CR website if you want to read. Also marisharaygun on youtube does highlight videos but i’m not sure exactly what campaigns/episodes they exist for

That was A LOT of information and I totally understand if it’s overwhelming because they do have a LOT of content. But hopefully this helped a little bit, and if you have any other questions totally feel free to let me know!

[isagrimorie]

Amazon has made a mighty embrace of the Critical Role cinematic universe.

Amazon Studios announced a multiyear exclusive overall TV and first-look film deal with Critical Role, the media company and D&D role-playing group behind Prime Video’s popular adult animation series “The Legend of Vox Machina.”

The first new series to be produced under the agreement is “Mighty Nein,” based on Critical Role’s second campaign, which ran from January 2018 to mid-2021. The Mighty Nein adventuring party — a band of criminals and misfits — are the only ones who can prevent the kingdom from plunging into chaos when an arcane artifact capable of reshaping reality falls into the wrong hands.

This is awesome for them!

I hope this means eventually we get Bells Hells! But also, OVAs like Search for Grog and Dale’s Closet but also!

EXU Calamity!

[cringefaecompilation]

so i just say your post asking about anyone who liked bh but hates the mn and. yes. i am one of those people. i started watching cr around episode 31 of vox machina, started with episode 1 of mn, and didn't make it past episode 5 on the first watch through. i didn't like any of the characters except yasha but having an ashley character be your favorite character is ROUGH - and seeing that pike was my favorite from vox machina (quickly followed by grog and scanlan), i learned the lesson pretty early on.

but yeah. i dislike the mn. i won't watch anything that doesn't have caduceus in it because he was the only saving grace for me and the only reason i actually started watching again. assholes just aren't interesting to me. i didn't care for them. now that i've watched some past episodes i dislike them less, but i don't find any of them really all that interesting. and when caduceus is the only reason you watch... well. it's not really a good time.

i didn't care about any of the npcs the group connected with except allura but, like, come ON. it's ALLURA VYSOREN. I didn't care about essek (still don't), pumat was good but not gilmore-esque, yussa... honestly he was the funniest npc just on accident cause he kept getting trapped in places he was sticking his nose in.

basically the characters just weren't the kind of characters i was ever interested in watching, the story line only garnered my attention very, very late, and, tbh, the fandom was (is) so fucking rancid that it just made me hate it more.

the moment exu came out i was so excited because i hoped fearne and orym would be in c3 and have loved them ever since. i would even say that like all the characters in bh and am invested in all their stories. chet can... sometimes get too much for me but that's mostly because i'm already overstimulated and has nothing to do with the actual character. even with ashton who is 100% california punk (your roots are showing, taliesin) and clashes against the punk lifestyle i've always lived only makes me respect them because, yeah. they're a punk. i'm a punk. fuck them; i'll love them forever.

huh, neat! i've never heard of someone getting into c1 midway and than into c2, usually it's the other way around. that's cool.

honestly i hadn't even considered that people may be COMPLETELY put off by the mn being assholes at the beginning, but then again i was also super taken aback when taliesin said that the nein were "almost all villains" but looking back on where they all began and their backstories, i can see it more.

i will agree with you that early c2 can be a little obnoxious to get through and while i was able to enjoy them (both the characters and the storyline) it's completely understandable why someone would get frustrated with them and stop watching. fandom toxicity and overall arc fatigue seem to be the most agreed on answers to why c3 fans if any don't like c2.

also the whole "caduceus is the only reason i liked c2" seems to be a sentiment for people that have become wholly disillusioned with critical role as a series, so it's nice to see someone still enjoying the series with that viewpoint.

for the last paragraph, i completely agree! though i really REALLY wanted dariax and opal to come along with them, we can see why (ep 64) it wouldn't have been viable.

i'm just shocked that everyone had pretty much the exact same answer, i swear i would have gotten at least one person that disliked it for a bizarrely specific reason.

[justine-the-guillotine]

Trying to rewatch Critrole C1 again when I can... currently in the beginning of the Briarwoods arc...

I love CR and pretty much everything they put out but I have never felt so deeply connected to any of the characters as much as I am for Vox Machina... I don't know if it's because they were so cemented in their characters already before the live stream so it carried so much weight, history, and connection for the cast and that was obvious, or if it's just the rawness of being a brand new thing at the time and figuring shit out as they go, probably a combination of both, but I have not been able to connect to their characters from any campaign on the same level that I feel for C1. Not even the animated series makes me feel the same, but I still enjoy it.

I see a lot of people who started with C2 instead of C1 feel the same way for the Mighty Nein as I do for Vox Machina, so I'm wondering if maybe just whoever the characters are whenever you first fall in love with the show is the characters you just always feel eternally connected to... I also have seen people who started with C2 saying that just can't get into C1 which hurts my heart 🥲

Actually the only time I felt as connected to a campaign as I do for C1 was EXU Calamity and I have a love/hate relationship with it being so short lol love it for its rewatchability but hate it for not getting to spend more time in that world with those characters 😩

[georgiarts]

I see posts about Critical Role all the time on my feed... How does a complete noob get into it? Looked at their YT and was completely overwhelmed 😵‍💫

ooh ok, this may be long sorry!!

I am by no means a CR expert and I'm sure people have different opinions on how they think people should start/what was best for them, but i will start by saying yeah, it is totally overwhelming to start with! I watched videos of other people suggesting where to start when i wanted to begin because i had no idea, and i tried a couple of ways that didn't work for me at first.

My experience was attempting to start with a smaller series rather than jump into a main campaign, but i began with EXU prime and couldn't quite vibe with it then, i didn't know enough to fully 'get it' i think, so i went for campaign 2 (the mighty nein). That's what was recommended and i felt like i would gel with those characters most at the time and i certainly did. (i won't lie and say the possible beauyasha relationship wasn't a little bit of a driving force too...). It's a big time investment for sure, but for me it was worth it and i enjoyed every second! A little while into my starting watching C2 they were airing their 3rd campaign and i decided to watch that weekly along with C2, not sure I'd always recommend that, but they're different enough and it's fun being on the same journey as loads of other people at the same time. I mayyyyy not recommend starting with C3 just because it pulls on a lot of the general history built up over the years, but you could watch and just do your research alongside if you didn't mind spoilers for earlier things.

Now with the animated series out that may a cool way for someone to start watching, get a little introduction to the world from that and then move on to what interests you, maybe check out some shorter content where Matt DMs to get a feel for it before a main campaign (but everyone else who DMs on CR is also amazing!) or just jump in and learn as you go, you may already know d&d and not feel as lost as i did at the start, but however confusing you do pick it up as you go, and they're all learning how their characters work alongside you so that's fun (apart from in C1 where they had already been playing for a while).

I think C2 is a good starting point, it worked for me, it's easily accessible and a beautiful journey, but the animated series could be cool too! I'd love if other people could share their opinions (it'd also be interesting hearing how you all started too!) If you do start watching and enjoying that's amazing and i am jealous that you get to experience it all for the first time, i wish i could do it all again!

[mansionofhaunts]

I will add this mild criticism that I also had for the Mighty Nein reunion: I feel like they could maybe cut some of the travel time montage stuff down a bit. I think it mostly worked here, because the fuckups really made the ticking clock feel more real, but the long stretches of nothing really happening are only really compelling if we get fun character scenes, and I think they were pretty clearly all hanging on to those until it was literally the last night, so...it didn’t work as well as it could have.

I think some of that was also down to the timing of the episode, like...I think they pretty clearly have big plans for episode 50, so nothing major was gonna happen aside from table setting and...sorry, this post makes it sound like I hate table setting or travel or “filler” episodes, and that’s not it, it’s just...more that I think the problem was that the mechanics of the travel bit slowed everything down, so the character bits which makes these sorts of episodes really good got a little lost.

There were really good character beats, though, don’t get me wrong! The Laudna & Ashton convo was great, the callback to EXU with the seed was great, and obviously the closing bits with Imogen talking to Orym and then Laudna were both stellar. It was just...sort of separated by a lot of “you roll for weather...you fucked up! but we’re not really gonna dwell on it because we need you to get where you’re going.”

It’s a minor complaint, to be clear, and I mostly like it when they do it at other points in the series, it just felt...a bit like the character convos had to come in under the wire, sometimes

[risingroleakira]

Help, it's again.

Time to rewrite this introduction post cause a few things have changed :V

Hey there fellow Critters! My name is Rose, and this is my Critical Role sideblog. (they/he pronouns)

About me: I'm a queer artist with a lot of free time, but not enough functioning braincells to use it properly.

I like to draw/paint, play videogames, worldbuild, tend to my OCs, daydream to music - all that good stuff.

My timezone is Central European Standard Time. Most of the time I'm somewhat nocturnal, especially in the days surrounding new CR episodes, but my sleep schedule also flips around a ton and might differ from day to day.

This is my sideblog, risingroleakira, mainly for Critical Role content and discussions of adjacent series. This includes Candela Obscura and MIDST. For my artwork, visit my art blog, risingroseart ...and maybe drop some reblogs while you're there! (This blog also includes my critical role art. I don't update it very often however, so alternatively visit my Artfol - also not perfectly up-to-date but definitely better) For my very messy main blog, where I mostly just reblog random stuff, visit risingroseakira.

Critical Role related info:

When did I start watching?

I caught the first half of C3E1 as it aired, then had to stop watching and take a break for a while due to external life stuff. A couple months later I binged the rest of that and all the other episodes that had aired since then.

What campaigns/series have I watched?

Finished or up-to-date: > Critical Role C3 as it airs > 4-Sided Dive as it airs > EXU:Calamity > EXU:Kymal > Candela Obscura Arc 1 - Circle of the Vassal and the Veil > MIDST Season 1 Work in Progress: > Watched Campaign 1's original version of the Briarwood Arc, as I cannot watch TLOVM due to the visual violence that I can't stomach. > After several attempts over the past few years, I finally have a successful attempt at C2. I haven't finished yet, and I've very much slowed down (or rather, stopped for a bit and am now slowly progressing again), but as of writing, I'm all the way up to C2E128.

Will be watching as it airs: > Candela Obscura Arc 2 - Circle of the Needle and the Thread > MIDST Season 2

Current favorite player characters? (spoilers ahead for the stuff I've watched)

> Ashton and Orym. I love all of the hells, so they're all included in this list, but out of all of them these two are easily at the top. There is strength, but there is pain; there is pain, but there is strength. Like vines, we grow together.

> Caleb. I don't think there's too much to say here, we all love him. Easily my favorite of the Nein, no question.

> Fjord and Caduceus The former the only bitch (/aff) I actually have merch for, the latter an aroace icon hehe. I love them both

> Dorian. It's 🎶been a while🎶since we've seen him, but as most of us do I miss the blue boy. At the start of C3 he was my favorite of the Bells Hells, and now I just miss him so much. > ..Most of the Bells Hells party, really. Between the lot of them it shifts around frequently. Ashton and Orym are pretty much constantly at the top, but it's generally almost the whole group that I love. >Percival Fredrickstein von Musel Klossowski De Rolo III. that was from memory, i refuse to not use his full name lol Look, I may not know most of C1, but the Briarwood arc, his design and what we saw of him in C3 were enough. I like that bastard too much to not put him here > Cerrit Agrupnin. I love the entire EXU: Calamity party, but Cerrit is easily my favorite. The Brass Ring endures.

> August/Auggie and Charlotte The Vassal and the Veil and these two in particular mean so much to me

Current favorite NPCs?

Lord Eshteross in C3 was at the top for a long time. Imahara Joe and Captain Xandis are also high up, and I love Milo so much,,, and NPC-Keyleth, obviously. In terms of C2, well, who doesn't enjoy Pumat (plural). I also quite like Yussa. But, of course, the blorbo of the NPCs is Essek

Favorite characters to draw or paint?

Ashton, hands down. I haven't really gotten to draw a lot of characters from CR other than Ashton and FCG, but like. come on. How can you not love drawing the nonbinary punk rock. How can you not enjoy painting their colorful gem and crystal hair and golden cracks and funky eyes and- Anyway that's my introduction post! I’d love to meet some fellow critters - especially newbies that love the Bells Hells as well, seeing as I’m a bit anxious in these types of long-lasting fandoms and therefore more comfy with people who are also a bit new to everything. Still - feel free to say hi whether new or old fan of cr! :]

If you watch the Pixelist Podcast, I'm on their discord every Thursday and during other CR related streams, chatting in the CR text chats. Feel free to say hi there!!

[dent-de-leon]

The fact that campaign 3 is only 7 years later than campaign 2 (compared to the 23 year jump from 1 to 2) has me going 👀

(Overall I’d still want any oneshots to be set much closer to campaign 2, but just knowing that the Mighty Nein are very much able to still be around and kicking during the events of campaign 3 makes me happy.)

oH I somehow didn't realize they were quite so close in the timeline, that's so interesting?? Seeing the Nein not even a decade later would be fascinating. It's enough time for everyone to get comfortable with their new directions in life, but not so long that I think they'd grow apart. But like--Luc is almost a teenager! Veth's little adventuring academy sounds so fun, I want to see it so bad. Also, I bet her wizard magic's really coming along; I hope she gets her own familiar. And little Kiri's older too!

King Molly's spent several years at sea--and a good few of those years with Fjord and Jester (longer than the whole Nein have been traveling together! I'd love to see how that changes up their dynamic, how close they all are now). King’s also got those “dreams of black chains” he’s trying to run from, which I am Terrified of, but...I’d love to see if that goes somewhere. He's also probably read Beau's whole journal and traveled all over to "visit and learn" about his past.

Jester opening up that lovely art gallery Laura mentioned, maybe even visiting the Feywild finally! And don’t even get me started on how badly I want Jester to have another run in with Isharnai. Fjord's post campaign arc can go in so many different directions; his past and reunion with Vandran, that contract he put out to hunt down Sabien, his strengthening bond with the Wildmother, everything that still needs to be dealt with to stop Uk'otoa! Caleb's probably got a reputation as everyone's favorite transmutation professor. Maybe he's started putting things in motion to try and remove Ludinus from power--Caleb's parting threat to him at the end of the campaign was so good.

Yasha could've grown an entire garden of her own by now, and maybe even tried to recontact her tribe--learn about her past, try to preserve Zuala’s memory, whatever she needs...she and Beau might've adopted a kid like they wanted! And Beau, there's just so much good she can do with the Cobalt Soul. So much to learn and so many more monsters to take down. I hope she and her little brother have grown close.

I imagine Caducues has had enough time to rest comfortably, and has starting going off on those adventures with Calliope Taliesin mentioned. I'd love to see all the things those two have been up to, all the exploring they could do. Maybe Clarabelle even joins them at some point. I hope Deucues has like, monthly tea parties for the Nein (Jester and Fjord have gone to every single one, and they always bring King Molly with them while he’s on the crew).

Sorry to get so sidetracked, but it’s definitely exciting to think about all the possibilities for what the Nein have been up to and where they are now! If it’s ever even alluded to the Kingsley somehow really became the Plank King, I’ll go feral. And I know we don’t have an exact age for Molly, but I’m pretty sure Beau estimates him at like early 20s in her notes. And given that he’s had such little time to live and explore this world--I’d just really love to see him when he’s older, a little more settled, having lived a decade or two instead of just two short years. That's so much more time to discover himself and try to come to terms with the past and I love that for him.

But yeah, I'm really hopeful that we'll see the Nein again! Oneshots will definitely be fun, but I also love that...with what they've done with the EXU crew and campaign 3, there's just something I love about the notion that we could see all the Nein again in little mini arcs! An EXU series where the Nein go to Darktow with King? Take down Uk'otoa?? Go to the Feywild? Confront someone else in the Cerberus Assembly? Find another corrupted forest like the Blooming Grove? King running into someone else from Lucien's past? Yasha seeking out her tribe again? There are just some really fascinating plot threads I think would be hard to constrain to a single oneshot, and I love the potential to revisit these characters in another miniseries in the same vein as EXU.

[utilitycaster]

@villadiodatis replied to your post “I know it's Nein lockdown but in practice for me...”:

I’ve been really hostile to the daggerheart c4 idea because it’s mostly come from the same people who fearmonger about how “c3’s got the lowest viewing numbers ever” but the magic shifting thing does make me wonder—it could also be a justification for the changes in 5e 2024, and my prediction remains 5e c4 with a daggerheart campaign in the current candela slot with some of the new regular guests, but we’ll see!

​Moving this out of the replies because this is a very valid point. To be honest a lot of the Daggerheart C4 people of that nature have apparently stopped believing it because somehow it hinged on the gods definitely being killed off (as opposed to the current state where it's been made pretty clear Bells Hells gets to decide what happens and it is not a foregone conclusion) and also it being a d20 system specifically (no idea why) but yeah. I will say: I don't see any specific reason to switch to 5e's changes/OneD&D. I mean, they could if they want to, but people played D&D 3.5e throughout the entire existence of D&D 4e; there are still people out there who stick with AD&D. A lot of the people claiming C3 has lower viewership than ever also kind of hated Campaign 2 and really have hated everything since Campaign 1. Right now they're blaming D&D but earlier they blamed the switch to pre-taping or the "meandering plot" and like, in the end, I'm pretty sure a lot of them were ultimately just fans of Vox Machina and of the cast being more accessible to a small fandom and they will never be happy with Critical Role again.

I will freely admit: I do not know if a campaign 4 is guaranteed to happen at all. It's a massive commitment and it's not out of the question that after this campaign Critical Role won't shift into EXU and various miniseries alone. During Campaign 2, Campaign 3 wasn't a guarantee either. But if there is another long-form campaign in the channel's immediate future, I feel like Daggerheart makes it more likely, and to be honest I think what you mentioned seems really unlikely:

A smart way to avoid the loss of audience when switching out of D&D (the recognizable brand) is to keep all the other things the same. Keep the setting of Exandria; keep the main cast; hope that people will stick around for Matt's GM-ing and the main cast and the world even if the mechanics change. There's plenty of reasons why I think Candela has a lower viewership including that horror is a totally different genre and a harder sell, but I also can't help but think that some people are specifically not checking it out because their favorite cast member or favorite cast dynamic isn't present.

Daggerheart is explicitly intended to support long-form play with level progressions, and I think they'd want to showcase that. Running two long-form games concurrently on the channel is really tough to the point that if they did both a 5e/OneD&D campaign and a Daggerheart Campaign, I think they'd probably have to have none of the original cast members in that as main PCs simply for reasons of time commitments and would definitely lose viewers if they did that. Candela is arc-based and can be presented sufficiently in 3-episode chapters in a way that I think Daggerheart cannot.

Again: fully speculative; but if I were say, in Marisha's shoes, and the cast had decided to do another long-form campaign after C3 I'd go with Daggerheart, still using D&D 5e for any EXU games set in the past, and keep Candela as a mini-series on the off weeks.

[cipher26]

I’ve been thinking about how brutally emotional a lot of the moments have been in EXU Calamity. It’s fascinating when comparing with the Mighty Nein’s goodbye tour, where they all basically said goodbye to their families since they knew there was a good chance they would not come back. That was heartbreaking for sure, but somehow not nearly as brutal as this series despite the fact that we knew the M9 for so long and were so attached to them.

And I just think it’s interesting...I think the M9 goodbyes didn’t hit quite as hard because there was hope. They were pessimistic about their odds, but their fate wasn’t sealed, but also they were convinced they were going to die for heroic reasons. They knew the scale of what was at stake, a lot of their families knew somewhat big was at stake, and they understood that their loved ones were doing something they believed to be important for everyone.

In Calamity however, I think it hits harder for two reasons. First, these characters have lived long lives. They are fully mature, established, they have families, they have loved and lost, and there is a lot more at stake for them. Having a big network of people and a society and FAMILIES that rely on you is a lot heavier. Having a lot of history with each other is a lot heavier. But also...they don’t know what’s coming. They have an idea that it could be horrible, they know something bad is happening, but there is absolutely no way they can even FATHOM how bad and destructive and world ending the calamity will actually be. This is the end of everything that they know, not just the destruction of a city, but the global destruction of a way of life. But we as the audience know what’s coming, we have the gift of foresight, so we know that a lot of these moments and lot of these actions, these conversations, will be the last. Watching someone eat a loaf of bread from his brother thinking he’ll reunite with him in a day, and knowing that they will never see each other again, is so brutal. The routine normality with which this day started makes the unthinkably violent ending so much more brutal. Their fates were sealed from the beginning of this series, and I think that’s why, despite the fact that we’ve only just met these characters, it feels so much more painful to watch.

And that being said, full credit to this cast and to Brennan for playing these characters so well and with so much emotion that it feels like we know them pretty well. It’s only been three episodes but these characters already feel so deep and rooted, it’s amazing.

[nightowlwriting]

summary: fjord takes care of the mighty nein. you take care of fjord. (part 4/13 of the kindness series, a thematically connected series of c2/exu imagines)

word count: 2.7k

warnings: mentions of self-hatred, bullying, lack of self-confidence

note: idk why this one took me so long and, honestly, it was almost super nsfw lmfao

masterlist - request - support my work? - ao3

Fjord is a man who appears to know exactly what he needs and when he needs it. You’re not so sure. You tend to hang back when the group talks to people, or finds jobs for coin, just to watch. That’s what you like to do - get information, tuck it away, use it later.

It just happens that sometimes you end up watching Fjord. There’s no reason, not really. He’s the leader by default, no matter how much Nott will say that it’s Caleb. He does most of the talk, smiling all coy and leaning against things to charm the party’s way through whatever Gods forsaken situation you end up in. It mostly works, with some exceptions. There are things you begin to notice in the nights after Fjord has failed to charm someone with a well-placed wink, or a sir or a ma’am. He makes the fire just a little bit larger, stacking logs and kindling and using his flint so that Caleb doesn’t have to use his magic. He cooks heartier food, sometimes even disappearing and coming back with a skewered animal from the forest to add to the pot of simmering soup. He takes the first watch and doesn’t wake anyone until halfway through the second watch so that everyone can sleep longer, even if it makes him crabby the morning after.

You come to a conclusion. Fjord takes care of people when he feels like he’s not enough. He overcompensates in his acts of kindness when something he does fails - but why? To make you all stay? To make sure you know his worth in the group? To make up for whatever he sees as a downfall? Honestly, you’re worried it’s a little bit of all three. You’re not really sure about how the mind works - that would be more for Molly, or Caleb honestly - but growing up in an orphanage with children who pick and prod at your every physical characteristic cannot be good for a person. Especially with Fjord insisting that he doesn’t have a last name, despite the times that he introduces himself and you see it die on his lips before he can say it. There’s something there, but you won’t pry. People deserve their secrets. They deserve to keep something for themselves.

If he wants to keep his last name, that’s fine with you. If he wants to keep the self-loathing inside of him until he explodes, well, that’s not fine with you. That’s why when you realize that he decompresses by making himself useful, as if the group might dismiss him just because a few people were immune to his charms, you decide to do something. No amount of reassurance from anyone will convince him otherwise and the rest of the group tends to shrug away from his slightly overbearing kindness when something goes south. Caleb, Beau, and Molly are just uncomfortable with it while Jester is usually too engrossed in journaling, Tusk Love, or talking to the Traveler. Nott is somewhere between Caleb and Yasha (uncomfortable and straight-up not around to be doted on.) And… Well, that leaves you.

It’s not that you mind Fjord’s constant doting after he perceives something to have gone wrong, but it’s hard to let him in. Your life before the Mighty Nein wasn’t exactly peaches and cream, either, but you know that he needs this. He needs to feel like he’s doing something for someone or he’ll break. You only notice that, though, after a particularly rough, rainy day of trying to get information out of people for a job. Fjord had forgotten something important which threw off the communication and sent everyone you were working with into an angry tizzy. By the time you make it back to the tavern, everyone is soaked to the bone and cranky, even you - and you tried your best to avoid getting out in the rain. What you really want to do is go back to your room and change out of your wet clothes and then go to fucking bed, but you hold back. The group disperses one by one until it’s just you and Fjord left at the bar, and before you can make your leave you see his hands shaking. His hands, which are large and calloused and strong, are shaking like a leaf in the wind. There’s no other outward sign that he’s feeling stressed or upset, and that surprises you. It also worries you. This is not how Fjord acts when something goes wrong. He doesn’t sit at the bar and brood over an ale - he mother-hens his friends until they’re sick to death of hearing his deep, drawling voice.

The combination of these things is probably what makes you pause halfway out of your seat, eyes narrow and trained on him. He makes eye contact for a brief second before looking back down to his drink. You know that approaching and asking him if he’s okay will get you nowhere but you can’t leave him alone at the bar, not when you know he’s stewing on every mistake, every misstep, whether they really happened or he’s just overanalyzing his movements. He’s your… He’s more than a friend to you, despite the fact that he doesn’t know that and you don’t show it outwardly. Fjord means too much to you to be able to let him sit and spiral into a funnel of self-doubt. You know that it will be weird to put your pride to the side and ask for help, but you also know that you don’t really need help.

But asking Fjord for help means that he’ll feel better and you think that’s a very good reason to shelf your pride for a night.

He barely looks up at you when you approach, still dripping all over the tavern’s floors and hesitant to speak. He doesn’t speak, either, just takes another long pull from his ale to bide his time until you leave. (Probably.) You take the leap first and say his name. “Fjord.” He doesn’t look at you. “I know we’ve all had a bad day,”

“You can say that again,” He snorts.

“We have,” You stress, one hand finding the hilt of the dagger on your waist for some sort of comfort. You’re wildly uncomfortable and can feel the urge to run, get away, flee building up in your gut. If you’re not careful, it’ll spill out your mouth and you’ll be forced out of the tavern for the night in humiliation and self-preservation. “It has been one hell of a day today. I do not want to be alone.” Your sentence cuts off briskly and Fjord looks up in surprise. Your face mirrors his - untamed surprise. You had really opened your mouth to ask if he wanted to find a table and listen to your vent but what came out was I do not want to be alone. You blink and think what the fuck? Before Fjord is shaking off his surprise and standing.

“I suppose I can give Molly the room for the night.” He extends an arm towards you but doesn’t look at you. He’s doing a much better job of hiding how strange you’re acting than you are but still, you’re not going to let this opportunity pass. You wrap your own arm around Fjord’s and he begins to lead you toward the stairs. “Anything specific bothering you?”

“Nothing really,” You hum as you respond, hoping that by allowing him past your walls that it will help him, “Today is just a bad day.” Fjord halfheartedly agrees and your nerves shoot through the roof when he leaves you at your door, explaining that he’s going to warn Molly that he won’t be in the room tonight. You nod at him and slip into your own room, leaving the door cracked so that he won’t feel awkward about entering. Your laundry is everywhere and you grit your teeth, doing your best to hold back a scream. God damnit, you’re about to have the man that you have a crush on in your room and today is the day you threw your laundry all over?

It doesn’t even matter that he’s traveled with you in carts where there is no possible way to not overlap on laundry slash unmentionables. You still dash about, shoving your laundry into a pile in the corner and covering it with your weapons and shield just before Fjord raps his knuckles against the door frame, calling your name. You shiver and invite him in, wringing your hands as you stand in front of the unlit fireplace. “Are you okay?” He’s so earnest and it makes you feel… A little bad. You don’t want to say no to having Fjord be with you overnight because his presence is so calming, but it’s also… He’s not in your room because…

Ugh. “Fjord,” You say before you can stop yourself, “Okay, so, you can’t be mad but I noticed when things go wrong you’re really, really hard on yourself and you shouldn’t be. And I also noticed that when you’re hard on yourself you dive into taking care of other people because, I don’t know, maybe it feels like you’re doing something good? I’m not sure, but I really meant to ask if you wanted to talk but then that came out instead but I can’t let you stay in here if you don’t know why I asked.” He stands there, taking in what you’ve said, and then shakes his head. Your room is dark - too dark for you to see whether or not the small smile on his face is actually there or if you’re imagining it. When he chuckles, you’re more apt to believe that Fjord is actually smiling even after the day he’s had. “Um,” You finally cut the silence, “Please say something.”

“You mean to tell me,” He drawls, stepping slowly closer and removing his chest plate. It’s like his mood has gone a full 180 from where it was when he left you outside of your room, “That you looked so awkward and like a li’l kicked puppy because you wanted to help me feel better?” He sets his chest plate on the table, coming into your sight as your vision begins to adjust. You don’t get a good look at what’s happening on his face because you look away very quickly, setting your jaw.

“Well, when you put it that way,” You grumble and cross your arms, “You just like to help people - it makes you feel better.”

Fjord comes to a stop in front of you and sighs, but doesn’t say anything. Your hands begin to shake and honestly, you regret your stupid fucking decision to try and help Fjord out. You wouldn’t be here, standing in front of him and purely humiliated, if you didn’t look at him and notice so much. He finally responds, one of his hands coming up to touch at your bicep and then trails up until he’s cupping your shoulder. “I do like to help people,” He’s speaking more from his chest than his mouth, and you can almost feel the rumble through the grip he has on your shoulder. It’s not tight but it’s there, heavy and comforting. “I didn’t think anyone noticed.”

“I notice a lot,” You supply, tugging your chin away when Fjord tries to use the other hand to make you look at him. It’s only after he says your name in a soft voice that you look. You’re surprised to see that he looks soft… Soft and fond. “Please,” You whisper, uncrossing your arms to grab both of his wrists. You’re not even sure what you’re asking for but the way that you whispered please is the closest to begging that you’ve ever gotten.

“Please?” Fjord says, sounding incredibly confused but soft at the same time. You shake your head, trying again to look away from him. He ducks down, catching your eyes again, “It’s just me, remember? This is why you asked me here, isn’t it? To help you feel better?”

To your horror, you feel yourself mist up. “I invited you here so you could feel better, Fjord. I don’t want you to be so hard on yourself, and the only time I’ve seen you calm down after a bad day is when you’re taking care of one of us. I thought… Even if I don’t really need to be taken care of, that would help you. I just want… I want you to feel better.” He steps closer toward you, caging you into the rough stone of the fireplace but doesn’t speak. You’re almost worried that Fjord is going to cold clock you, but then he does something that you expected even less.

He surges forward and kisses you. Every part of him nearly engulfs you - the hand on your shoulder moves to the back of your neck, anchoring you to him, while he groans deep in the back of his throat. Your hands scramble for some purchase to express your surprise, landing on his hearty shoulders, clenching in the fabric of his shirt. You sigh into Fjord’s groan, and press as close as possible to his body heat. No matter how much you don’t want to admit it, you’ve been craving this: closeness with another person, pressing tight against their body… You’d be lying if you didn’t admit that when you thought of that, of intimacy, that you pictured Fjord. You just didn’t think he pictured you.

Fjord surges forward again, and you feel the soft scrape of tusks against you when he opens his mouth to breathe, keeping his nose pressed tightly to yours. “I didn’t think,” He says, accent thinner than you’ve heard previously, “I never dreamed that you would feel…”

“Oh, I feel,” You tell him, slowly moving your hands until you can intertwine your fingers behind his neck, “I feel so much, Fjord.”

“You never said…” He sneaks another kiss between his words, dropping his hands to squeeze at your waist, “You never even let on that you see me this way.”

“I do a lot of looking and not a lot of showing,” You remind him - it was something he had said to you when you first joined his group. I always catch you lookin’, but you never show. It’s terribly funny because he’d said it while the Mighty Nein were all naked, sudsy, and sharing a bathhouse at Molly’s insistence. The group had a field day with that and still does. The memory is apparently still fresh in Fjord’s head because a blush creeps high over his cheeks and he looks away, flustered. “You’re strong and pretty and beautiful and you take care of us so well. Even when you’ve had a bad day. I look up to you so much, but at the same time I want, perhaps selfishly, to take care of you in ways that you might not take care of the group.” He almost looks surprised at what you’ve said, but then it melts into a look of soft adoration. Fjord kisses you again and then drags his lips lightly over the arch of your cheek before he rests his head on your shoulder where he inhales deeply, his breath tickling your throat. You can feel his hands contracting against your waist, like he wants to touch and feel but is settling for keeping them where they are and feeling the soft give of your flesh. You know your heart is spinning at what feels like a million miles per hour, and you know that he can probably hear it, too. You can’t find anything in you that cares, though, because you’re so close to Fjord. He smells like saltwater, you realize. Not in a way that it seems like he’s been coughing it up again, or in the ocean, but just sort of… Naturally. Like he’s always smelled that way. Like you’ve always known he smelled that way. Like you were always meant to know and to find comfort in it. You pull yourself closer, relishing in the way that you hold each other, and Fjord sighs. You can feel the way that he relaxes underneath your hold and you relax, too.

This… This is the way that it’s supposed to be. This is how you can do for Fjord what he’s done for your team - except different. Except more.

[danikatze]

For the CR meme: 30, 33, 35

30 What is your favorite theory or headcanon that has absolutely no bearing on the plot and isn't important at all, but which is completely compliant with canon?

Oh gosh that's a difficult question. There are certain fandoms I have an infinite amount of hc and theories for, but I don't have any that I can think of for CR. Looking around in my CR tag I did get reminded of all the wild theories around Bolo from EXU Calamity and I love each and everyone of them hahah. Well I guess imagining that Yussa has (had) a mullet at some point is a hc that is not important at all, and golly do I like the drawings that I made of that x)

33 You may ask any member of the cast one, and only one lore clarification question. What do you ask?

Hmmm I'm usually a wait-and-see kind of person.. I certainly don't have C3 lore questions, because of all that might still be revealed. Nor any C1, because while I like it well enough I'm not that interested. When it comes to C2 I'm especially looking forward to Fjord and Molly's origins comics, and there is a chance I might get the Nine Eyes of Lucien next weekend (we're celebrating Sinterklaas in the Netherlands, which means exchanging gifts and I asked for the book 🤞If I don't get it, I'll probably buy it myself lol)

I'm not expecting an Essek Origins comic, and I would definitly love to know more about Den Thelyss and about Verin in particular. Matt has dropped little snippets about his relationship with Essek and it sounds delightful and kind of heartwarming? I wanna know more about his dynamic with Essek growing up, but also as adults. So yeah I guess I would ask Matt about Verin.

Wait wait wait, speaking of Den Thelyss: my real question is about Essek. HOw is Essek not consecuted. WHat's the story, Matt?? Isn't it too important for his den to just accept a "no thanks" from him? Did he "too busy, maybe later" it for so long until his den just gave up? Did he fake it? If so: how do you fake a consecution ritual that takes an entire day? As far as I'm aware he lies about it to everyone, so can I assume he lies about it to his den too?

I also think it's a curious coincidence that Essek didn't receive a consecuted soul when he was born in the first place. I mean it makes sense that you're not guaranteed to get one when you're born because not everyone who worships the Luxon gets to be consecuted and so it's pretty much random, but it's a thought that struck me nonetheless while listening to c2e91 again a few days ago.

This answer was a bit of a ride, sorry hahah.

35 You can set the time and place of the next EXU series, but it cannot be within 100 years of the Calamity nor Divergence. When and where do you set it?

I have a weakness for creatures that are commonly viewed negatively, shown in a different light. So the Mighty Nein's introduction to Xhorhas will always be one of my favourites, and I would be very interested in seeing a mini campaign take place in Asarius for example. That could be so much fun, especially if like half (or all) of the cast plays some type of monster: very fond of bugbears, but also a minotaur PC?! that would be so cool..

Besides that I'm also super intrigued by the lands scarred by the Calamity. It reminds me of a place in Belgium where apparently nothing would grow for a good while after. I'm never really interested in WW II stories, so many have been forced on me for educational purposes and as someone who's prone to downheartedness all they did was make me feel pessimistic. That story of the land and the animals that fled it grieving what happened there always did something to me though. It was probably barren because of the stuff the armies used to gass their enemy, but still, the idea of a cursed and/or grieving land captures my imagination.

And I don't really care when it takes place, because the reclaiming of the land around Ghor Dranas to build Rosohna came with a lot of setbacks and any stage of that process could be really good!