#Dylan Horrocks

[bringbackwendellvaughn]

[squarehead333]

Dylan Horrocks, Alan Moore, Steve Grove and Dan Clowes: imagining comics that don't exist.

[cantsayidont]

May 2004. Speaking of "objectively deranged": In BATGIRL #50, Batman and Batgirl (Cassandra Cain) beat the crap out of each other, nearly get blown up, and end up almost drowning in the Gotham River (which all things considered is probably more dangerous than any of the rest). Batman's coterie of Bat-flunkies run around frantically trying to intervene, assuming that Bruce and Cass have been dosed with a new super-drug that causes homicidal rage, but Bruce later tells Barbara Gordon that wasn't the case at all:

"But it works"? Does it though, Bruce? Does it really?

[casscainmainly]

You know, I was never a big fan of the post-Puckett Batgirl issues, but your analysis actually managed to breathe new life into them, great work!!

Wow, thank you so much! I definitely think Puckett has the least weak spots overall, and my ultimate fav issues will always come from early Batgirl (2000). Yet Horrocks and Gabrych both flesh out Cass in interesting directions, and I don't think her character would be the same without them.

Horrocks, for instance, gives us a lot of the gender exploration, as well as the fight with Babs, some nice Steph-Cass moments, the great Bruce fight, etc. Those are some defining moments for Cass and great examples of her growth.

Then Gabrych utilises Cass' voice the best out of any writer (in my opinion), really demonstrating how much she's learned since she had no internal monologue. We also get Tim interactions, a confirmation that Cass wants to be Batman, Brenda, learning Shiva's her mom, Steph death hallucinations, etc.

They both have contributed key pieces to our understanding of Cass today, and without editorial mandates their runs probably wouldn't have had so many flaws (like the very last issue, War Games, etc.). I think they deserve a lot of appreciation!

[but-a-humble-goon]

It's a shame the whole cruise ship bit during the Horrocks run was far more interested in showing off Cass in a string bikini than it was in actually building on any of genuinely interesting character stuff they briefly threatened to touch on. There's a lot of potentially fascinating character insight you could gain from a story actually delving into Cass' relationship with sex and her own sexuality. Not that I trust the same comics industry that thinks Mark Millar is what maturity looks like to get within a thousand miles of the subject.

[drbatsponge]

It's kind of funny how the Horrocks run of Batgirl and the Gabrych run of Batgirl are polar opposites in the fact that Horrocks had a weak start but got better towards the end and Gabrych had a strong start but got kind of meh towards the end, lol.

Just a funny observation.

Fortunately for Gabrych I think you can blame most of the pitfalls of his run on editorial whereas I genuinely didn't think Horrocks understood how to write Cass at the beginning. 💀

[browsethestacks]

1) Alan Moore - Art by Matías Bergara

2) Alan Moore - BBC News

3) Alan Strong - Art by Dylan Horrocks

4) Godzilla Pin-Up - Art by Alan Moore

5) Alan Moore (1987)

6) Alan Moore - Art by Melinda Gebbie

7) Alan Moore And Jack Kirby

8) The Muppet Show With Guest Star Alan Moore - Art by Axel Medellin

9) Alan Moore

10) Alan Moore - Art by Andy Christofi

[smashedpages]

Happy birthday to Dylan Horrocks!

[fantastic-nonsense]

okay so. Gabrych is the one who did the Shiva parentage retcon and started tying Cass back into the League of Assassins, which culminated in the One Who is All plot and Cass throwing away the Batgirl mantle and going back on the run after she killed Shiva in Batgirl #73. That ending then obviously connected up to Beechen's OYL Evil Cass plot via her going back to the League again and taking over Nyssa's sect, using justifications that linked back to Cain's history with the League and the One Who is All plotpoint from Gabrych's run.

But Gabrych and Beechen weren't the only ones making the calls in the Bat Office, and Death and the Maidens came out the year before War Games. So the work to kill Ra's and put Nyssa and Talia in charge of the League was already happening, and we know that Cass was being positioned to have a long-term part in that story even if the Evil Cass arc had never happened.

We also know that Dan Didio (who notoriously wanted Babs back as Batgirl) was already in charge of things by then and that Geoff Johns was writing Teen Titans (the original "public" justification for the Evil Cass arc was so Johns could use her as a Robin villain in TT03), so the concept development for the Evil Cass arc was probably already happening in the background as early as the end of the Puckett/Scott run.

So my longstanding theory is that the groundwork for the "remove Cass as Batgirl by making her a villain and doing LOA-based stories with her" agenda would have been laid even earlier if Horrocks hadn't been all 'screw that' about working with Bat editorial on War Games. Not sure how the Horrocks run would have been different otherwise, but I guarantee that the Batgirl issues of War Games, which laid the groundwork for the massive post-WG status quo change that was moving Cass from Gotham to Bludhaven and allowing her to operate independently, would have looked very different with his willing participation.

I actually have a longstanding conspiracy theory that if Dylan Horrocks hadn't been so anti-War Games as a concept his Batgirl run would have been used to lay some of the groundwork to advance the Evil Cass agenda

[starsapphire]

ok wait did geoff johns come up with the name conner bc the first time kon uses the name conner is in batgirl #41 which came out a few months before tt03 #1 🧐 who do i blame for this

[bringbackwendellvaughn]

[dailycass-cain]

Can you tell us more about Gabrych and the end of the 2000 run? Why was it cancelled?

Near the end of the comic book event "Infinite Crisis", Batgirl Vol. 1 was axed. This was not due to low sales (several DC Comics at the time were selling worse and continued on when the relaunch "One Year Later" program was to hit) but for a rather sexist reason.

Back in 2010, the inker for Batgirl Vol. 1, Jesse Delperdang, posted on Deviantart the real reason the series was canceled, "canceled to make room for the coming Batwoman."

That "coming Batwoman" was an ongoing series by Devin Grayson, and would never see the light of day (DC got cold feet when the character got more publicity than they realized and decided to retool the character (which we got with Greg Rucka and J.H. Williams III over in Detective Comics a few years later).

Because more than "one female bat comic" was one too many. Not only that but just last year Dan DiDio posted on Facebook the original outline he had for "OYL" regarding Cass:

Of course, DiDio always changed his mind and instead, we got the racist caricature in OYL. Nor would this be the last time DiDio would change his thoughts on what to do with Cass (2009, 2011, and 2016. Each a can of worms of themselves).

So that's why Batgirl Vol. 1 was canceled, due to sexism.

As for Gabrych, he continued to work with DC until an Omega Men mini in 2006-2007 and began to go back to his life outside DC Comics. He did come back to write a 2010 graphic novel Frogtown for the Vertigo label.

The thing is, DC Editorial under DiDio was a nasty business. Sometimes you followed the edicts or didn't and walked altogether (Kelley Puckett for a brief run with Supergirl Vol. 5 in 2008 and Dylan Horrocks with the "War Games" event when he and Grayson objected to Stephanie Brown being brutally murdered and DC taking away Babs from the comic too). Or you got nasty pricks in editing to deal with like Eddie Berganza (a noted DiDio toadie). It was just a toxic culture altogether, and I'm glad it is over when DiDio got fired in early 2020.

Two have left comics altogether (Puckett & Gabrych) and Horrocks is doing indie comic work in his native New Zealand, but avoiding the Big 2 after the "War Games" experience.

The sad truth is, if you write a Batgirl ongoing there's a 75% chance you're gonna get out of the industry. Literally, there's only a handful of Batgirl writers who've done stories on the ongoings and not left.

We just got Bryan Q. Miller back to DC in a few months (they're also reprinting the Batgirl Vol. 3 run he did), and that's probably cause most of the old regime left (see an SDCC 2020 Batgirls panel he was on with Sarah Kuhn and others where he goes onto a tale regarding his clashes with the heads over Cass).

Puckett did do a new foreword to his Batman Adventures run which got an Omnibus recently. So MAYBE there's hope for him too.

I hope I answered your question to the fullest on why Batgirl Vol. 1 ended and why Gabrych left the industry.

[littlefankingdom]

~ Batgirl (2000)

They are sad and disappointed in themselves and they should be. What they did is not justice.

So, I'm mad about this issue, like really mad for personal reasons I will explain later. For context: a young girl has been kidnapped by a thief who escaped jail. It's not the first time said thief kidnapps this girl. This young girl, around 10 years old, is an artist and her mother exploits her, making money by selling her daughter's art. They are rich. This woman doesn't love her daughter, she loves the money she is making from her daughter. The man that keeps kidnapping this young girl? Her father. Her father that loves and cares for her, that turned to crime to take care of his daughter, and refuses to sell any art she makes because she made it for him, because she loves her father. And she pleads, she pleads Batgirl to let her with her father and not bring her back to her mother who doesn't love her, she pleads her to not put her father in jail. And what do Batgirl does? She stops the father, gives him to the cops and brings back the girl to her mother. On those panels, they are looking at a sad child with her abuser they brought her back to.

My mother doesn't love me. She will say she does to others, but it's not true and it has been the case for a long time, since I was very young. I wasn’t unwanted, I was just not what she wanted. My life was supposed to be centered, until my death, around taking care of my mother (she is not disabled or anything, she just wants people to do everything for her). Raised to make money I would gift to my mother, so she could have luxuries, but I was not successful in that. I grew up pleading for love, pleading for people to listen to my pain. Nobody did. I learnt that people prefer the comfort and peace of their lives over helping others. I learnt to distrust authority figures (teachers, doctors, any adults/people at least 5 years older than me in general), because either they were power hungry assholes who abuse kids, either they preferred to look away, who would tell me to be nice and listen to my mother. It's too much problem to help children. In the end, I could count on nobody but myself to get out. I can count on nobody but myself. I hate the system, and I promised myself I would never be like those who look away, I will defend any child that needs it.

So, to read a story where a little girl pleads a HERO to not bring them back to their abuser, only for said HERO to still bring her back to her abuser, to tell her to be nice and stay with her awful parent... I am furious. This issue is literally telling me that, if heroes existed, the heroes you adore since you are a child, they would not have saved you. They would have bring you back to your mother and told you to be nice, like everyone else. They would have let you go through those years of pain. Heroes would have looked away.

What is the logic here? Because it's neither justice or the good thing to do. That it is the law? Since when do they follow the law? I don't remember vigilantism being legal, or assault and battery, or owning all the weapons Bruce owns. Yes, it was still a kidnapping, her father is a criminal, it would not have been a good life for a child. But, the Bats could have tried to find a solution, instead of simply giving this child back to someone who will treat her like shit.

I know it's just a fiction, so it's not like a real child is being exploited and will be more abused later when she stops being good enough because her mental health deteriorated, nobody is going to become depressed and lose trust in heroes because the bats brought her back to her awful mother. And also, it's not the characters who are at fault, it's the writers. It's not about Cass and Bruce being bad people heroes, it's about who the fuck decided to write that. New entries in my list of enemies, Keller Puckett and Dylan Horrocks.

[laufire]

batgirl issue forty-five where cass asks to see barbara's batgirl costume and barbara's all "oh yeah I loved being batgirl every guy found me soooo sexy, especially nightwing!" and cass takes the suit for a spin and tim sees her and is all ''uhhhhh batgirl have you done something different you're sooooo hot right now." how can I find a hand-me-down copy, get a cheap ticket to new zealand, and track down dylan horrocks so that I can burn it right in front of him? asking for a friend.

[zahri-melitor]

Casspoll!

Okay I really had to think about this one and I quickly dipped into the runs I have not touched yet rather than just using their reputations:

Kelley Puckett – It’s Puckett. He created Cass. Some of her very best stories happened here – the first two Shiva fights, delivering a man’s final wishes, Nobody Dies Tonight, Thicker than Water. The absolute heart that Cass cannot allow people to be killed hits hard here. She’s still learning about what a society is.

Dylan Horrocks takes Cass and her growth and lets her mess up and brings Bruce and Barbara more into conflict over what Cass needs, but also allows Cass to be in conflict with them over what she wants. It has the Ivy twofer “The City is a Garden/The City is a Jungle” which I think is Horrocks’ best plot. It has Tough Love, where Bruce and Cass have their conversation over what the Bat means to Cass. It has Cooking the Books, where we see the abrasive side of Barbara’s personality come out and hurt her relationship with Cass. It has Cass taking her first steps into relationships, with her attraction to Tai’Darshan and Kon. It’s a messier, more complicated time.

Andersen Gabrynch has the best conversation of Fresh Blood with Tim over their life goals and their reflections on War Games. He has Destruction’s Daughter/Blood Matters and everything that comes with the culmination of that storyline. He gives Cass her first taste of civilian life. Gabrynch is the ‘how far will Cass go’ writer.

Adam Beechen: you’re all mean! Oh Beechen. He screwed up first time around, no question, but I continue to maintain he did useful things with Cass in Batgirl 2008. He brought in the chance to parallel Slade and Rose’s relationship with David and Cass’. He worked hard to find fixes for the mistakes he made. And if Fresh Blood set up the situation where we saw Tim and Cass become closer and start establishing a sibling-like relationship, then Beechen solidified it to the point that it was expected from that point onwards.

Joe Kelly: oh, Justice League Elite. You are certainly a story. I think the most important thing Kelly actually did in JLE was when Cass stabbed Kendra. It broke her. There is some beautiful writing in JLE surrounding Cass basically sobbing to Bruce over this incident, and Bruce promising her that she doesn’t have to stay undercover, he’ll pull her out, her happiness is more important to him than this mission, and Cass refusing to be extracted. And Ollie remaining there the whole time to keep an eye on Cass on Bruce’s behalf. It’s such a good paternal moment on both Bruce and Ollie’s parts, and they so very rarely get them in concert. It’s also a moment of growth in Cass that is rarely referenced, because as I must repeat, it happens in JUSTICE LEAGUE ELITE.

Bryan Hill: I have heard good things! And immediately on picking it up and going through the first three issues I saw the exact thing I’d enjoyed and wanted more of from Dixon’s 2008 BatO run – Tatsu working with and mentoring Cass – which is a solid recommendation in itself. Will 100% be coming back to this when I get up to this era in my reading.

Becky Cloonan and Michael Conrad: I dipped into #1 and #14. It suffers from the modern era problem of light and bright fluffy content without a solid base behind it. Also the fact that the writers didn’t initially realise that two of the characters they were assigned were ADULTS and were writing them that immaturely is certainly not reassuring. Um. I also know I’m not fully across modern era Cass yet, but #14 seems to miss something that’s basic to my understanding of Cass – talking can be hard but READING is harder. Cass not talking but having reading comprehension showing up constantly? It feels off. (Also I’m fascinated in how an issue like Batgirls #1 manages to be that off while still managing the Cass shower robe scene, which to my eye echoes and references the BatO 2008 Cass shower scene. Suspect they just got lucky and I’m reading too much in)

Mariko Tamaki: okay I have not yet read Shadows of the Bat: The Tower, but I have read Sounds, so I’m basing on that. Tamaki really seems to get Cass, her hand with the character work in Sounds hit some very fundamental parts of Cass’ character and struggles, and I really enjoyed it.

Overlooked: ALYSSA WONG. Wong’s work with Cass in Spirit World not only has been busy recanonising a bunch of things from Batgirl 2000, but is touching on some central aspects of Cass’s view of killing and death in beautiful resonance of things originally established by Puckett. Also it’s given Cass some narrative space back on her own, and while I think Cass’s relationship with Steph is important, I also think she’s more functional and useful to DC writers when she’s not assumed to be part of an automatic pair.

Plus a plug for Scott Snyder for Gates of Gotham and giving us proper insight into the Reborn era Cass relationships with her brothers.

[fictional-library-tournament]

Prelims round 1, poll 1

Propaganda:

The Halls of All-Knowing, various Thor comics:

None

Williston Library, Smif College, Questionable Content by Jeff Jacques:

None

Basement at Goodman, Lieber, Kurtzberg & Holliway, various She-Hulk comics:

In the mid-2000s She-Hulk solo titles, law firms in the marvel universe practising superhuman law keep comics libraries of marvel comics, which are officially licensed biographies and used in court as primary sources!

Tales of Our Own, Green Lantern Far Sector:

None

The Hicksville Lighthouse Library, Hicksville by Dylan Horrocks:

Once a comics writer hits a certain point in their lives, they can go to the town of Hicksville, NZ. There are about three dozen inhabitants, all of whom are very knowledgeable about all types of comics. Old men bicker on the merits of Edward P. Jacobs vs Sergio Aragones, the municipal library has multiple mint condition copies of Action comics #1, the tea and the rarebit are especially good at the local café. It's easy to find accommodation and art supplies there.

Here, comics writers can write the comics they always wanted to. Unbound from commercial appeal, material difficulties, anything. Once in Hicksville, they can do it. Then it goes in the lighthouse library. You can read the comics of Picasso and Lorca, Harvey Kurtzman's History of war, Wally Wood's Map of magic, the finished Phoenix by Tezuka and so many more. All the great works that could've made the medium sing, from writers the world over, pure freedom in a million different formats. The only rule to observe is that the works here are Tapu, Taboo in the Maori sense (the caretaker of the place is Maori) as in, a community resource that must not be exploited.

The library is located partly underground, partly in the Hicks Point lighthouse in New Zealand.

Junior Woodchucks Guidebook, Guardians of the Lost Library by Don Rosa:

"The Junior Woodchucks Guidebook?", you no doubt ask. "Isn't that just a book? A single book does not a library make?" And yes, it is just a book - and at the same time, no, it absolutely is a library. The library, actually. This tiny book is the actual, literal lost library of Alexandria, and contains all its lost wisdom and lore (except, sadly, the plays and poetry) preserved and expanded through the ages as various keepers cared for the library, preserved it by constantly transcribing and transferring it into the newest media and adding more and more content along the way - for instance, Marco Polo added all the books he brought back from China - until eventually, the library came to Duckburg, where it was collected in one single, huge volume - which a bit later became the very first "Junior Woodchucks Guidebook" - with some added modern knowledge and an entire organization dedicated to it's continued safekeeping. So, yeah - Junior Woodchucks Guidebook = Library of Alexandria + more