#Dante basco critical

[avatar-legends-confessionblog]

Dante definitely sees himself as Zuko and it’s so annoying. You’re not Zuko. What really turned me off recently is that I saw an interview with him and the actors playing Mai and Ty Lee.

The women were great but it was so weird how Dante was freaking out acting like The Beach was some horrible episode for Zuko just because according to Dante poor Zuko was stuck with his sister and her friends. I mean since when is it so bad for a guy to be friends with a bunch of girls? God forbid. Came across sexist to me, like oh my male character suffers by hanging out with some girls instead of being in a fight scene with men.

It’s also not Azula’s fault that Zuko had no friends aside from Iroh so don’t blame the girls. Oh and Dante was downplaying the struggles Ty Lee and Mai had acting like they were just privileged which is hypocritical considering Zuko was the most privileged prince of all 😬

X

[puppppppppy]

Atla live action 😐

[fcalloway]

Travis discussing Laura's dream come true

- AWNP Unplugged

[deepfriedjunction]

You have dishonored the franchise and so you have dishonored me. The time has come to reclaim my honor you dishonorably dishonored with my honorably honor of my honorable honor!" Dante Basco-2014.

[jasmine-tea-latte]

JTL's long but not as long as it could've been review of Netflix's ATLA

So.

I’ve finished watching the Netflix adaptation of Avatar: The Last Airbender and I have a lot of thoughts. Because despite some of the more questionable changes, I overall enjoyed this as an adaptation.

I wish I could say that I was surprised by the criticisms I'm seen so far, but unfortunately, I’m not. As much as I adore the OG series for being one of the greatest animated shows (or television shows, period), it’s been placed on a pedestal over the years and any adaptation of it will always be held to an impossibly high standard. And for better or for worse, a lot of fans have their nostalgia glasses on when it comes to the show, so any deviation from the source material is going to receive some form of backlash. I say this as someone who clearly still loves the show 19 years later, otherwise I wouldn't be here writing about it, ya know?

Anyways, if I had to give it a grade compared to the OG series, I’d give it a B- or a C+. If I’m grading it as its own thing, I’d bump that up to a B+ or A-. There are some elements (pun not intended) that definitely should have been kept in, and some changes that I thought were done well.

TL;DR – I had fun watching it even during the parts that made me cry, and the parts that made me say “… well that was a decision.” I’d love to see the last two books be adapted as well, if for no other reason than to meet Toph Mothereffing Bei Fong and see all of Team Avatar together.

(Also because I’d LOVE to see The Ember Island Players, especially if they managed to work in a few fun cameos. Can't you picture Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson as Play!Toph and thee Dante Basco as Play!Zuko, hamming it up for all it’s worth? Shut up and take my money!)

(And of course, the Last Agni Kai for obvious reasons)

So I’d recommend at least checking it out if you’re interested. I’d also like to recommend that if you do, watch it from a pragmatic standpoint that it’s a condensed adaptation, not a shot-for-shot remake.

Some things that I liked, and some that I didn’t are below the cut:  

(SPOILERS, obvs)

Aang – I really liked this version of him, and though his actor’s still young, I thought he embodied the upbeat, playful side well. I also liked that they removed his one-sided crush on Katara, and – don’t shoot me for this – if they went with Kat@ang later based on how they did their characters in this first season, I wouldn’t be entirely opposed if it’s built on actual friendship and not an unrequited crush. (Still Team Zutara for life, but I don’t think that I’d *hate* it if the show went in this direction.)

Katara – I thought her actress did great when it came to portraying the nurturing, sensitive side. What I didn’t like was them removing nearly all of her feminine rage. Let her be angry! Let her lose her temper and be hot-headed! This post sums it up nicely. That being said, I do think she did well enough with the direction she was given. Here’s hoping we’ll see our girl eff some stuff up if we get Seasons 2 and 3.

Sokka – Fantastic and sarcastic. I really liked his actor’s interpretation of him, and it definitely felt more in line with the character we all fell in love with during the OG show.

Zuko – out of the main cast, I think his performance was the best. He had to step into a major role, taking over from a beloved performance that is still hailed as one of the greatest redemption arcs in modern media with a lot of expectations riding on his shoulders, and I think that his actor knocked it out of the park. It’s different from Dante Basco’s interpretation, obviously. But as I watched each episode, I kept thinking, “there’s our grumpy fire boy.” The scene where he’s throwing the temper tantrum over losing his journal, while Iroh’s standing back and watching? I thought to myself, “this boy is the worst, he’s perfect.” Plus the flashbacks to his life before scarring were done well, and even though I knew what was coming re: the Agni Kai against his father and subsequent banishment, I still got emotional.

Also, regarding the Agni Kai – on one hand, I feel like his absolute refusal to fight back was such an integral part of that scene and understanding who he is as a character. That being said, I didn’t *hate* that in this version he was pushed into defending himself, albeit by holding back. That one shot where he hesitates to attack Ozai, only for his father to use that same move against him moments later… oof.

My ONLY complaint with this version of Zuko is that he didn't say "honor" once.

Other thoughts I had:

🟣 I really liked that we got to see more of the Air Nomads and life at the Southern Air Temple prior to Sozin’s attack. I also liked the explanation the show gave of having all the Air Nomads gathered together for a festival celebrating the comet, which makes more sense if they’re all (allegedly) under one roof.

Additionally, witnessing the genocide itself… I was crying. Especially during the final showdown between Gyatso and Sozin, and the realization that we were witnessing Roku’s (former) best friend slaughter one of his other closest friends.

But why wouldn't they send the children out on the flying bison to escape instead of having them all cornered?!

🟣 I really enjoyed getting to see interactions between Ozai and Iroh, which was one of the biggest missed opportunities in the OG show.

🟣 MY GIRL JUNE. That is all.

The part where she flirts with Iroh was also a nice flip on what happened in the OG show, with his covert pervert crush and all. Plus Zuko’s face when she calls his “dad” cute? Peak Zuzu. Also, poor Iroh hahaha.

🟣 Suki! I really liked the Kyoshi Island episode, plus her awkward flirting with Sokka by kicking his ass.

🟣 I really wish the whole subplot of Kya’s necklace hadn’t been cut, tbh. The flashbacks involving her were good, and as devastating as it was actually seeing her death, it does hammer home the point what a horrifying experience that was (side-eyeing you, everyone making the jokes about Katara always bringing up her dead mother.)

🟣 THE SCARF SCENE. Nice try, Netflix, but I know better than to get my hopes up again from 5 seconds of slow-mo. Did I still screech when it happened, though? Ofc I did!

🟣 The twist with the 41st Division was bittersweet and I may have (okay, definitely) cried.

🟣 Combining Jet’s subplots with the Mechanist’s and putting them in Omashu wasn’t too bad. I do wish the message of “not everyone in the FN is evil” from Jet’s episode had made it into this version, tbh.

🟣 Overall, I liked Jet + the Freedom Fighters. Also, props to his actor for capturing the pretty boy / f*ckboi attitude well.

🟣 Loved Chong and the hippies, of course (SECRET, SECRET, SECRET TUNNEL, YEAH!) and I don’t mind that they were included this early.

🟣 I loved the change to the Cave of Two Lovers and having Oma and Shu be lesbians.

🟣 I feel like if the show’s renewed for a second season and we come back to Omashu, there’s a chance they could revisit the COTL with Katara and Aang this time around.

🟣 The random lady smacking Zuzu with a broom – “how dare you hit that child?!” – was hilarious, and Dallas Liu’s facial expressions of “wtf” and “fml” were a thing of beauty (starts at 1:40 in the video below)

🟣 CABBAGE MAN! I just love that they got the original voice actor, hamming it up and screaming at the sky.

🟣 I LOVED the Blue Spirit episode, and all of the flashbacks, plus the voiceover about masks and seeing past!Zuko contrasted to present!Zuko, as presented in this gifset? RIP my heart.

🟣 The flashback to Lu Ten’s funeral and showing Zuko being the only person to join his uncle, sharing a sweet memory of his cousin while Leaves from the Vine plays? Beautiful. Ditto to the flashbacks of Iroh standing up for his nephew prior to the Agni Kai and the scenes of them getting ready to set sail to search for the Avatar. “I don’t need a babysitter.” “How about a friend?” how about excuse you I did not ask for these emotions how dare you.

🟣 I actually liked the inclusion of Ozai and Azula + Mai and Ty Lee. I also loved the opening of Ep. 3, showing how she was able to infiltrate the team of rebels. RIP to Kevin Tran (in advanced placement), though.

🟣 I loved that Katara rallied the women waterbenders and they were able to help during the Siege of the North. I also liked her reaction when she's talking with Yugoda in the healing huts and realizes why she's been sent there. It gave us a glimpse of the fiestier / headstrong Katara we all know and love, and if the show gets renewed I hope we'll get to see more.

🟣 I really enjoyed them giving Aang and Zuko a few minutes to talk / form a connection after he was unmasked as the Blue Spirit. That was nicely done.

and finally...

Nothing else to add, just chef's kiss.

(gif source)

Anyways! I might make a more extensive list of my personal pros and cons, but for now, I’d still recommend giving it a shot.

[zvtara-was-never-canon]

I don't think the kataang fandom is perfect/ has never harrased people all fandoms have bad apples but im getting annoyed with how much zutaras keep insisting that they were never the bad guys and were always jut the victims of the ship wars. that kataangs are nothing but big bullies who wont let em ship in peace. . when i myself was met with hostile aggression from their fandom as a aang and mai supporter zutarian they were ruthless ,angry, called anyone that didnt agree with em abuse supporters.. bryke D suckers. SExist ect. i just wish that they would be humble and admit that their fandom has lots of bad apples but no its always Kataangs bullied us.. we did nothing wrong and are the victims of the fandom. I'm tired.

Yup, them calling out when Kataang shippers are being dicks is one thing, and I'd even accept them doing it more often than they call out "one of their own" because duh, obviously the bad apples of the zutara fandom would not be hostile to them, so they could genuinely not know about some things.

But denying anyone "on their side" could EVER be bully? Pretending there isn't nearly two decades of evidence of Zutarians threatening and doxxing people and telling them to kill themselves? Acting like there's any truth to all the conspiracies and full on lies about Bryke, Ehasz and a "secretly planned Zutara endgame" just because said conspiracies and lies would put Zutara as the underdog and the writers that liked Kataang as cruel, unfair, downright abusive bosses? Acting like it isn't super hypocritical to imply Bryke are PEDOPHILES for "self-inserting as Aang to date Katara", but praising Dante Basco all the time for being a die-hard Zutara fan and understanding that him liking a ship doesn't mean he's attracted to actual children?

Not to mention the classic: screaming "But what about what THIS person did?" whenever someone calls out any bad apple in the Zutara fandom - like one cancels the other out.

Zutarians don't just deny their fandom has bad apples, they go out of their way to protect them from any criticism - and then wonder why the sane zutara shippers end up finding a safe place in blogs like mine, even though I constantly make my negative feelings on the ship very clear.

Decent people don't turn a blind eye to harassment just because they aren't the target of it, and the more the Zutara fandom tries to excuse the actions of bullies in their community, the more decent people will avoid said community like the plague, regardless of how they feel about the ship, which in turn keeps all the bullies and enablers off in their own little bubble because literally nobody else wants to interact with them.

[kingofdorkville]

based solely on the first episode, the live action atla is less fun than the original, everyone is right about that. it seems like the goofiness is lacking. netflix has a habit of making things grittier than they need to be.

the person who plays sokka is a good cast, he looks oddly like him.

i like the kid who plays aang, he has a LOT of potential. he's genuinely quite enjoyable.

i like iroh. no complaints.

the person who plays zuko plays him well so far. of course there's nothing like the va work of dante basco though.

and hm, katara. i like katara and i like character this actress has played before (ka'kwet from awae). i think i'd need to see more before i could have a good opinion. she's not hateful so far or anything. i've heard some criticism so i guess i may be disappointed and quickly.

[avatar-legends-confessionblog]

So what i actually came here for:Dante Basco is a good voice for Zuko but irl he gives Iroh.That pervy old misogynist man energy(see him selling Zutara shirts.Nigga wtf were you messaging with that)

X

[shadowed-dancer]

Iroh II: *Has the same voice actor as Zuko*

Everyone: Why would Zuko’s 36-year-old grandson sound exactly like 16-year-old Zuko? No adult sounds like that!

Dante Basco, who was 36 when recording Iroh II’s lines and was using his normal voice:

[evelynda-dahling]

brb watching edgy zutarra edits set to sad music

[kataraslove]

this is genuinely one of the most despicable things i’ve ever had the displeasure of reading - and i’ve seen my fair share of shit being spewed on this website. imagine equating the abuse that jennette mccurdy experienced by her mother and nickelodeon to a fictional ship. criticize bryke’s writing all you want; there’s plenty that i dislike. but to go as far as to accuse them of pedophilia because of their preference in a fictional ship, especially when one of them has actual children and they both have wives. or to accuse them of seeing katara as their sexual fantasy when there’s nothing in the series that depicts her in a sexualized manner whatsoever. the only instance where a version of katara has ever been depicted in a sexualized manner is the imperialist play, where the show itself is critiquing racist fandom depictions (in the form of fire nation propaganda). this entire post is the very definition of using shipping as performative activism and hurling heinous accusations at people whose crime is writing that you disagree with.

among the plenty of women who had worked with bryke, from original writers to animators to storyboard artists to character designers to voice actors to even the live action writers, not one has come out and said that they experienced any type of sexual, physical, or emotional abuse or harassment by bryan and mike over the last 15 years. if many of the female cast and crew can go on the podcast and freely state that they ship zutara in front of bryke, and even have harmless shipping debates with them all in good-nature, where is the evidence that they run their studio like a hierarchy in which the slightest mention of zutara can get these women harassed?

the only writer that worked on avatar that has multiple workplace allegations of sexism is aaron ehasz - the head writer that, y’know, zutara shippers have conspired for years (and still to this day) of wanting a zutara endgame in a secret book 4.

on the topic of viewing female characters as sexual objects, did you know that zuko’s beloved voice actor dante basco, who is 45+ years old, has a history of:

calling a fictional 15 year old fat (mai)

making inappropriate comments towards the bodies of ty lee and katara

has encouraged zuko to grab katara and kiss her while she’s angry: “fuck it, just kiss her, zuko! that’s when you’re supposed to kiss a girl - when she’s all mad and angry.” several woman on the livestream were uncomfortable by his comments, including michaela murphy, toph’s voice actress, who had told dante (in a joking manner to ease tension) that if he ever does that to a woman, she ought to punch him in the face.

i don’t see op in the screenshot accusing dante of having sexual power fantasies of katara, even though it would be more than appropriate to accuse him because there’s actual evidence of him doing so, that many zutara shippers have downplayed as just being a joke. joke or not, given the amount of power and influence dante has in the fandom, especially as he was making these comments in a livestream with plenty of young women watching, to quote op in the screenshot, this is NOT inappropriate. why is this not treated with the same level of seriousness? why are zutara proponents, like dante and anyone who agrees with him, not being accused of abuse?

i hope you also assess the amount of grown adults in your OWN fandom who are wholeheartedly writing explicit smut of underaged zuko and katara. your smut week had an explicit no rape rule and it was still broken - BNFs on here even defended their right to write rape and non-con works of zuko and katara. popular tags in your fanworks include race play, fetishizing katara’s indigeneity. the pirate scene - where zuko kidnaps katara, ties her up to a tree, and uses her personal belonging - her FINAL connection to her dead mother - for extortion, has been sexualized since 2005. all of this inappropriate fandom behaviour is presented to impressionable young members of the fandom as healthy and passionate, so long as a zutara label is slapped on it.

meanwhile, there are plenty of kataang shippers who are in happy and healthy relationships, who have balance and say in their relationships, who communicate effectively with their partners, who enjoy kataang because it reminds them of their relationship! there’s plenty of woc (especially indigenous women) who are attracted to men, in support of kataang. minimizing their voices and their struggles, pretending like they’re victims in their relationships and/or potential relationships over a fictional ship, is the very definition of white fandom feminism. you’re not the feminist that you claim, nor are you doing a single thing to prevent actual domestic abuse that women experience worldwide, by typing up this ridiculous paragraph. domestic abuse can happen to any kind of women, committed by any man. it is not dictated by personal preferences about shipping in a Nickelodeon cartoon.

an example: a close friend of mine shipped zutara growing up and detested kataang (still does, but not as passionately). she unfortunately and unbeknownst to her at the time, entered into an emotionally abusive relationship with her ex-husband a couple years ago. she has since left the relationship, and is doing much better mentally and physically. am i going to now conclude that her shipping zutara caused her to enter into a toxic relationship since zuko was one of her fictional crushes growing up and zutara (post-atla) was one of the relationships she aspired to have? of course not, because i’m not a fucking idiot who takes something as serious as domestic abuse and violence against women to turn it into something that ships on Nickelodeon have contributed to. doing so displays an absolute lack of understanding to the casual factors that cause these types of relationships in the first place.

feigning pity and sympathy for women who ship kataang, saying that they are more likely to enter unhealthy and toxic relationships because they overlook aspects of katara and aang’s relationship that you deem as “unhealthy,” claiming that enjoying kataang in any capacity is romanticizing and normalizing “abusive” relationships, accusing real life creators, that are married with children, of pedophilia and sexual power fantasies over fictional shipping, is genuinely so performative that it only makes sense someone in deep fandom spaces would come up with something as much of a non-issue as this.

finally, your logic is that kataang - pushed by two grown men with a supposed fetish - grooms women into accepting and normalizing abusive relationships, that it’s something they should actively desire. then in the same breath you’ll go, “most women don’t even like kataang. it’s a ship only liked by straight white men.” well, which is it? are women allowed to make their own personal choices on fictional relationships or are they not? you need to come up with a decisive narrative.

i think the phenomenon that i’m observing is that a lot more women are being vocal in their enjoyment of kataang in fandom spaces, that a lot more women are participating in fandom spaces for kataang. and you guys have no idea what to do with this, because for years you touted this narrative that only men truly enjoy kataang. when you’re presented with data of the opposite, you can’t seem to wrap your head that people have different shipping perspectives as you, so you transform it into a moral issue.

i think your disdain can simply be summarized as, “the ship that i personally dislike, have disliked for years, is starting to get more defense, understanding, and praise. i don’t like this, therefore i’m going to turn a matter of fandom shipping into a morality issue of abuse justification.” yawn. boring. sloppy. lazy. please come up with something better.

Screw these guys, man. I wish could enjoy Zutara, I really do, but these guys guy ruin the ship for me. There is no way you can be a fan of this show and come up with such a gross objectively wrong take. They straight up said all the bad stuff Zuko did was irrelevant because he was fighting on the opposite team. People say stuff like this and then they ask why people don’t like them. Delusional idiocy at its finest.

It’s irrelevant that Zuko did bad shit? Tf? He was actively playing a role in the war, he was not a bystander. He and his family and his people benefited from the genocide of the other nations, and Zuko himself helped invade both the SWT and NWT! He also helped bring down Ba Sing Se which resulted in the colonization of the rest of the earth kingdom. That is not irrelevant stuff. Yeah, he switched sides at the end, and was trying to do better and fix the damage he caused, but it doesn’t erase what he did!

Also, in regards to Dan Schneider… wtf? I’ve read Jenette’s book. It’s good. She never mentions the writers of ATLA in it, obviously. Because what does ATLA have to do with any of this? Just because ATLA aired on Nickelodeon doesn’t mean the writing team or the creators ever abused anyone????? Throwing around allegations like this is simply vile! Calling the creators of ATLA child sexual abusers is FUCKED! These men have families and wives. Mike has 2 children!!! WHAT THE FUCK

Just because your ship didn’t happen and was never intended to be a thing, doesn’t make Mike and Bryan pedophiles who rape kids. What the actual fuck. There is nothing explicit or inappropriate for children in ATLA. Absolutely nothing. I have a HUGE problem with someone throwing out false allegations against someone just because they’re mad their ship didn’t become canon. This is in no way reasonable behavior. This is in no way EXCUSABLE behavior. Drop their username, let’s quit hiding who these people are because accusing someone of CSA is a very serious, life ruining allegation.

[maggcat]

Guys we need to bring this up...

GUYS?

[pandynogatonga]

weird al yankovic as the voice of jegbert

moist critical as the voice of dirk strider

aubrey plaza as the voice of aradia megido

john dimaggio as the voice of the aimless renegade and all members of the midnight crew

matt stone doing butters as the voice of tavros nitram

dante basco as the voice of rufioh nitram

danny devito as the voice of andrew hussie

sungwon cho as the voice of doc scratch and all members of the felt

jack black as the voice of the mayor

[avatar-legends-confessionblog]

The talk of Dante reminded me of why I don't really vibe with him. I don't think he's ugly, but the way he acts feels, weird, to me. He acts like he is Zuko, and not just Zuko's voice actor, and some people treat him like it. People are attatched to him because they associate him with Zuko, which I've always found weird because I've never connected voice actors to characters like that.

But I got confused because, ngl, Aang's va, Zach, is an ever present interest of mine, and so I was worried I was being hypocritical. But I realized, I don't want to know more about Zach because he voiced Aang. I want to know more about him because he dropped off the face of the planet. Most other voice actors still will interact with fans of characters. Some of them are still milking the atla thing.

If Zach did the same thing, I would not care. If anything, I think I'd hate him bc like, no, you're not Aang, why are you milking Aang's image. But the fact that he's not has intrigued me to no end. Zach is now one of my favorite people because I know jack shit about him and I think that's hilarious. He really voiced the main character of one of the most iconic western shows out there, and then fucked off.

That energy is crazy. There's this one really short video where Dante found Zach in the wild and Zach just does a quick little "flameo hotman, yip yip" as a little jokey fun bc ofc he sounds nothing like Aang now. And just, wdym he's real and just Out There.

I've heard he's actually started showing up more but I'm afraid to seek it out and find him like all the other voice actors. I prefer the cryptid Zach that lives in my head.

Honestly, anyone who's seen stuff from him, feel free to lmk if he maintains this energy or if he's just like every other voice actor and projecting the character onto himself.

X

[darklinaforever]

Thank you once again for proving everything I said in this post. Like... it's crazy right ? The person apparently knows what we're talking about, without ever having bothered to read /see anything about it. It's shocking. No, really, please confirm that this person knows nothing about the analyzes regarding Zutara. But she claims that everything we say is just invention or misinterpretation, without basing it on what happened in the series. That we just horny. (Dante Basco is horny for Zutara so ? I swear the argument about being horny is so stupid and a reflection of lack of critical arguments)

I have no qualms about saying this person is an idiot. After all, I don't have a brain according to her.

Also, I love when we are told that Zutara is self-insert, when the whole kataang relationship is based on Bryke's self-insert. And I'm not even going to talk about how Aang is drawn in TLOK. The hero of the series and his relationship with Katara are both based on self-insert. That's a truth.

Also... It was this person who came to insult me. Not me. I didn't insult Maiko fans. I published an anti post on an anti tag on my tumblr, without insulting the senders. I didn't go looking for them to harass them. In the meantime, this same person reblogged my posts to constantly insult me. So, wtf ?

This person is talking about this video :

For those who know this video, it's precisely a video analyzing tons of moments / events from the Atla series... And not just a girl talking about "vast misinterpretations" for two hours (for those who don't know it, I highly recommend it). There are literal scenes used to prove / support the point of view, exactly as this anti want.

But obviously, this anti will never bother to watch this video, while pretending to know what she is talking about. But, that's the whole principle when we talk about Zutara. We talk about their scenes in the series. No scenes from our imagination ! Wtf ?!

Let's be clear, if I generally post or send this video it is to prevent me from wasting my time unnecessarily sending messages to people who will not change their minds anyway. For what ? Because this video is essentially a summary of my opinion on the Zutara question with the arguments very well illustrated and supported by the scenes of the series and or its narration with the explanation of the character arcs, etc.

What I like the most is seeing people proud to affirm that they don't watch or read Zutara analyses, and then try to pretend they know what we're talking about in our analyzes dedicated to the Ship.

How everything we say is just fantasy, our imagination. That we are actually talking about events that never happened ! Or everything is misinterpretations because Zutara makes us horny. This ship is only based on thirst and the superficial pairing of the color blue and red in addition to their physical appearance ! Nothing deep ! (Thank you again for confirming that you have probably never read or watched Zutara analyses)

I don't understand why it's so hard for people to understand that canonical events aren't always good (especially for the characters) or well done in a story. We have to stop the bullshit. There are tons of examples of series with poor writing choices. Stop pretending that having a different opinion from canon is inherently wrong. (Or the show Atla is perfect)

Especially when your only arguments are to say that the opposing team's analyzes are like this or that, when in fact, you don't even look at them ! You have no credibility.

To say that we like a certain relationship because we are superficial / horny, and that if we like it is because we have understood nothing about the series, to see frankly that in fact we do not like it and that we do not like the characters, just because we don't accept certain choices of creators, is essentially admitting to not having any arguments in my opinion.

The anti Zutara piss me off with their fucking condescension.

Also... saying the Zutara fandom is dead ? Make me laugh.

Also, if you actually like Zutara for these reasons, namely the fire / water, red / blue pairing, the fact that these characters physically fit together and you find them sexy, well there is no does nothing wrong, because it's fictional. But the fact is that I've never seen Zutara fans like this ship for these things (except for the fire and water aspect, but generally in its context of Yin and Yang, therefore complementarity, which is in fact each time associated with the characters, their behaviors, relationships and arcs. So always in a deep and not superficial perspective). In fact they are never even named in the analyzes which I come across. Quite simply because generally, Zutara fans are very intelligent people with remarkable analytical skills regarding the Zutara relationship, canonically a friendship, but also clearly with a romantic connotation of very / too many times... But I won't dwell on that since the very video on this post already talks about it.

Kisses to all Zutara fans. And fuck anyone who comes and tells me, or even thinks, that I don't have a brain.

Merry Christmas to everyone.

[thevictorianghost]

You said in your finnrey/zutara post that studio meddling was involved for both. I knew that this was the case for finnrey because of racist cowards. But I never knew that was the case for zutara? Tbh I just assumed from the get-go that aang and katara were the main ship and I thought it was cute for them to end up together in the end. Though it is really interesting to learn that zuko and katara could’ve also been a serious thing and I think they could also work together rather nicely. What happened behind the scenes that caused it not to happen? Was aang originally gonna be set up with toph or have no love interest?

Oh hello! Hi! My first anon. Welcome :)

Before we start: I’m going to write Kat/aang, A/ang and Bry/ke like that so it doesn’t appear in the tags and I’ll bold some sections for emphasis. 

I don’t think the writers even considered Toph as a love interest for A/ang. It was always about Kat/aang vs Zutara.

It’s no secret at this point that Dante Basco and Mae Whitman, who voiced Zuko and Katara respectively, ship Zutara. Dante Basco is known as the “captain of the Zutara ship”. They’ve written multiple times about Zutara on Twitter and Dante Basco said in an interview that he really thought, at one point, that Zuko and Katara were going to end up together, that he thought it was going that way, and that he loved the idea of fire and water together.

As for the writers, it’s a bit more difficult to find information, since the show ended 15 years ago. But Aaron Ehasz, head writer of ATLA, has come out and said there was supposed to be a fourth season and it was dropped in favor of the movie. He said it on Twitter on April 1rst, 2019 (while also saying sorry for picking that date, it wasn’t an April Fools!). He said that M Night Shyamalan wanted them to focus on Book 4, but Bry/ke (Bryan Konietsko and Mike DiMartino) “wanted to focus on the movie”. You can find those tweets here. Not about Zutara per se, but it does show not everyone was on board with how the show was going to end behind the scenes.

Speaking of the movie, when asked about The Last Airbender, M Night Shyamalan also gave his input on the situation. He talked about how, by the time Book 3 came around, he wasn’t sure if the series was supposed to end there or if there was going to be a Book 4. He said to Bry/ke: ““Dudes, I gotta know this. This is critical! This has to end. This has to end. If it doesn’t end, I’m not on board. But if you don’t want to end it - it’s all good.”  They were like “no, we saw it as three seasons for each element that he has to learn.”  And I said “great.”” This is where it gets interesting, though: “At that time they hadn’t even decided where things were going to end, even like who Katara was going to end up with. All of that stuff hadn’t been figured out yet.” 

It’s interesting to me how he mentions this is who Katara will end up with. Not A/ang, not Zuko. It’s always about Katara.

 Someone who interned on ATLA has been quoted as saying that “If you check out the I.P. Bible then you’ll see a Kat/aang endgame was never planned from the start, it was supposed to remain a one-sided crush throughout the whole show.“ and that “The actual decision to make them a couple came about much later at Bry/ke’s request, largely because they were frustrated at the popularity of Zutara.“ Of course, not everyone in the production was full on one side or the other, as the post says some were neutral about it. “Some of the crew liked Kat/aang, I know Joaquim [Dos Santos] was a big Kat/aang supporter but more of them were neutral about it, Ehasz was not fond of Kat/aang but he didn’t mind too much since he’s a mature adult and all that.”

Avatar Extras (special events on Nicktoons where episodes of ATLA were shown with fun facts) were released where it was said that Zuko was supposed to be Katara’s love interest. It was said two times at least. I’ve only ever found screencaps of these, but I found these here on Tumblr. 

When asked about these in the Avatar Extras, Bry/ke said that it was just a joke and that Kat/aang was always in the DNA of the show. But if you’re here to tell fun facts to your audience about your show, maybe put a disclaimer that says some things might not be as truthful as they think they will be?

And the intern mentioned earlier also said that “No one was having full-on ship wars in the writer’s room but we did joke about it, and we toyed with the idea of Zuko and Katara falling in love a couple of times.“ So that goes well with the Avatar Extras.

Meanwhile, other writers, like John O’Bryan, have been quoted talking against Zutara in favor of Kat/aang. EDIT: Thank you to @exhaustedhope for giving me a source for this quote! This link also has a few images for the quote, so I’ll add them here.

Thank you again! And also the use of Zutara fanart to badmouth the ship in favor of Kat/aang? Dude.

If this was the way people behind the scenes were thinking of Katara and A/ang’s and Katara and Zuko’s relationships... well that doesn’t really make me think “Kat/aang was in the DNA of the show” either, huh? Zuko was never officially her love interest, Katara never actually “went after that guy”. But the thought that she might made them uneasy. 

(Btw, let’s not forget Zuko actually does care about Katara, enough to put his life on the line for her in Book 3, so that mischaracterizes Zuko.) 

This comment by John O’Bryan fits with this vision of Zutara Bry/ke has, where Zuko is nothing but a broody, emo “bad boy” who doesn’t care about Katara at all. It’s shown pretty well in their dreadful “joke” made at Comic Con in 2007. You can find the video here. Here, Katara ends up with A/ang and “should have never doubted the will of Mike and Bryan!” (yuck). So Kat/aang was always the “right” way for them to end the show, right?

But then! Even Bry/ke themselves have said that Kat/aang was forced. They said it in 2014 when Korrasami became canon in Legend of Korra. On Korrasami and Kat/aang, they said this: “Originally, [Korrasami] was primarily intended to be a strong friendship. Frankly, we wanted to set most of the romance business aside for the last two seasons. Personally, at that point I didn’t want Korra to have to end up with someone at the end of series. We obviously did it in Avatar, but even that felt a bit forced to me.“

So they admitted that Kat/aang was forced. They even mention the ATLA ship wars in the post. “Either direction we went [about Korrasami or Makorra], there would inevitably be a faction that was elated and another that was devastated. Trust me, I remember Kat/aang vs. Zutara. But one of those directions is going to be the one that feels right to us, and Mike and I have always made both Avatar and Korra for us, first and foremost.”

Okay. So what’s real about the behind the scenes of ATLA and what isn’t? Was Kat/aang in the DNA of the show, or did they go back and forth between Kat/aang and Zutara like they did with Korrasami and Makorra? 

There have been conflicting informations scattered across the Internet over the years. Some people say one thing and others react, saying the opposite and that the first thing was false. Some people lied, or joked, to mess with the audience and toy with Zutara - or not, or maybe, or perhaps... What I think, though, is that not everything was set in stone. Some people were for Zutara and some people were for Kat/aang. And even after all of that, the big takeaway for me was: the end result that Bryke wanted so badly was lackluster in and of itself.