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Ep 16 Transcript: Wife Guy (Derogatory)

Episode 16

[intro music]

PAZ: Hi everyone, welcome back to Stairway to StarClan, a Warriors Cat reread pawdcast. I'm Paz.

JULIAN: I'm Julian.

LIZ: And I'm Liz.

PAZ: And we are here for our Fire and Ice book wrap-up/retrospective episode because we finished! Yay.

JULIAN: We did it.

PAZ: I don't know. I was thinking maybe we revisit Liz's prophecies as a way to assess the book as a whole.

JULIAN: They're very good.

PAZ: So when we finished Into the Wild, Liz provided us some predictions for what would happen in Fire and Ice. And we're gonna revisit those and see if Starclan's vision was accurate.

JULIAN: Liz, do you want to read your prophecies?

LIZ: Oh, okay.

PAZ: We can just take them in order.

LIZ: Okay, the first one is they'll almost get Tigerclaw, but he gets away at the last minute at the end of the book.

PAZ: I don't think Tigerclaw was close to getting got at all.

JULIAN: Yeah, no, not even a little bit.

LIZ: No, they just--

PAZ: He gets the opposite of got.

LIZ: Fireheart just kind of like, well, I just live with him now.

PAZ: Well, to be fair, Fireheart told Bluestar and Bluestar's like, I don't care.

JULIAN: Tigerclaw is the missing stair of ThunderClan.

LIZ: God.

PAZ: I don't blame Fireheart much cause everyone kind of told him to shut up.

LIZ: Yeah. Okay. "Fireheart voice: Rats. If only I had not been wracked with indecision and brainlessness because I'm a dumb little cat. Kind of a Hamlet hubris moment." I don't remember saying this at all.

JULIAN: That was in regards to like Tigerclaw getting away that it would have been partly Fireheart's fault because he was being a dumb little cat.

LIZ: He wasn't being a dumb cat this time. I mean, not most of the time. He was as proactive as he could have been. Except in other parts.

PAZ: I think he grew a lot of brains this book.

JULIAN: He did, I think. Yeah.

PAZ: I would say his one dumb little cat moment was being like, I'm tired. Let's go through RiverClan territory.

JULIAN: And you know, which one of us has not made a dumb decision because our feet hurt?

PAZ: That's so true.

LIZ: And he's got four of them.

PAZ: Yeah, and they're little paws.

LIZ: Fireheart will get a promotion. True.

PAZ: Yeah, I guess he got an apprentice.

LIZ: I think the way he's being set up to get another promotion, instead of being just manager, he's gonna be super manager.

PAZ: ThunderClan needs a super manager right now.

LIZ: Oh, absolutely.

PAZ: Cause Bluestar is doing whatever the hell.

LIZ: Next one. Maybe they'll have some different jobs now.

JULIAN: Ehh.

PAZ: No?

LIZ: Did not happen.

PAZ: No.

LIZ: I don't think so. They're kind of the same. And they are in fact at risk of losing the jobs they do have because of all the murder and betrayal.

PAZ: I would say them not having different jobs has really fucked them over because apparently Cinderpaw can not have any different kind of job. Just one job and you can't do it anymore, apparently.

LIZ: Yeah.

PAZ: So I think they still need some different jobs.

LIZ: Second, well, not second. We had the second one before the second one. Just the next one. We'll see more of the other apprentices. True. Not enough, I feel. Would love to see just more of all of them. But a good amount.

PAZ: I mean, I guess when you said that, that was referring to Dustpaw and Sandpaw.

LIZ: Mm-hmm.

PAZ: We kinda saw more of them.

JULIAN: We saw a little bit of them.

LIZ: Coming to it at the end of the book, I would like to see more of Cinderpaw. Hey. What's up?

JULIAN: I think we'll see some of her, but it remains to be seen if it'll be good.

PAZ: Ugh.

LIZ: Ugh.

PAZ: Um, okay, this next one's a doozy.

LIZ: Graystripe will develop a personality.

JULIAN: One finger curls on the monkey's paw.

PAZ: He developed some kind of personality.

LIZ: I would like to make some formal predictions for the next book after this. And I just want some of the predictions to just backtrack. Just to take it all back. Okay. Just the next one is, a fun little jaunt into the barn to see Ravenpaw, who is totally fine. Eh?

PAZ: Yeah.

JULIAN: I mean, that didn't happen. But I would like that.

LIZ: Yeah, he's fine.

PAZ: And he was totally fine.

LIZ: I was shocked.

JULIAN: Wait, did we see him? Did I forget that?

PAZ: What?

LIZ: It was really early on, right?

JULIAN: Oh, you're right. It was.

PAZ: Yeah, when they were coming back with WindClan, they like stopped by the gay farm.

LIZ: Yeah. So unexpected and great.

PAZ: I would say Ravenpaw is more fine than any other cat in the forest is fine at the moment.

LIZ: Good for him. Gay rights. Happy pride month to Ravenpaw.

PAZ: Happy Pride Month to Ravenpaw and Barley.

LIZ: And no one else. Speaking of that--

JULIAN: Hashtag love wins.

LIZ: Okay, next one. Gonna just do them together because they're the same thing, I feel. Bluestar subplot, I'm getting so old. What have I done for myself? And her slice of life old romance with Yellowfang re-entering the workforce. [sighs] What could have been.

PAZ: [sighs] I wish.

JULIAN: Tragically, this did not happen.

LIZ: No, she just became very dumb for the plot. Not all of it was for the plot. But.

JULIAN: She became like, incompetent boss.

LIZ: Yeah. She became a bad boss, who-- there were like these weird instances of her being like, kind of sus and mean to everyone for unexplained reasons, which I'm assuming we'll get in the next book. But it didn't get brought up this time as much, I feel. Very little interaction with Yellowfang except for the one good moment where she was like, well, we accepted like an outsider into the clan before, or something, and that turned out fine. I think they should retire.

PAZ: Well, she has one life left. She's gonna retire sooner or later.

JULIAN: She's gonna retire to be dead. Retire all the way to StarClan.

LIZ: You know what, it kind of sucks on Earth. Maybe it's better.

PAZ: I don't know. I mean, I don't know. I mean--

LIZ: I'm assuming she's not gonna pass away peacefully in her sleep.

JULIAN: No, you don't think so?

PAZ: Julian, you're cutting out for me.

JULIAN: Oh, am I?

LIZ: Yeah.

JULIAN: I turned up the gain on my microphone. Is that any better?

LIZ: Yeah.

JULIAN: Okay.

LIZ: Paz, you're gonna see some real wiggly lines on my audio. I'm sorry.

PAZ: It's okay.

LIZ: There's some motherfuckers with their loud cars just driving on by my very small street.

PAZ: It's Tigerclaw. It's his fault. He's driving that car.

LIZ: Oh god. It wasn't enough that he had to push kittens in front of them. Now he's got to get his driver's license and do it himself.

PAZ: Tigerclaw would have like a-- like, take his muffler off his fucking car.

JULIAN: Oh yeah, fully jacked like, gigantic wheels, truck that he like, is always like, oh, I'm gonna go mudding this weekend. But then he never does because then he would have to go to the carwash.

LIZ: So I think we got a good what? 35%? 40%? I'm not really good at math, even when I'm faking it.

PAZ: Yeah, I think you got more things right than I would have expected.

LIZ: I think I made some last episode, but I definitely don't remember them. We can leave that as is, or we can make some new ones. I'm down with it.

PAZ: I think we'll receive some new prophecies at the end of this episode.

LIZ: All right.

PAZ: Yeah, so, I guess we can talk about the book more generally now, because that's why we're here. I don't know. I liked it a lot.

JULIAN: Yeah.

PAZ: I felt like it was definitely-- it definitely felt like less of a contained story than the first one did.

JULIAN: Yeah, definitely felt like a lot of setup.

PAZ: Yeah, I forget who said it. But like someone said at some point in the podcast that it felt like a very much like a middle chapter like set up book, even though it's the second book.

LIZ: It feels better paced, too, I think.

PAZ: Yeah, one thing, it's like, I think about what happened in the beginning of the book, and it feels so long ago. Which is probably partially because we took a break in the middle of it. But it's like, wow, a lot of shit happened in this book. Like, it's hard to believe that Fireheart telling Bluestar about Tigerclaw was in this book.

JULIAN: Right. I mean, I completely forgot about Ravenpaw.

LIZ: Yeah. I think there were time jumps in the last book, I think. But I think it utilizes them more decisively, maybe, in this book, especially since it being like, winter is such a big thing like in the background.

PAZ: It took me so long to work out why the title was Fire and Ice. I just had Game of Thrones on my mind. And I was like, why? Why is Game of Thrones here? And I think it came before Game of Thrones. I don't know when that book was first published.

JULIAN: I didn't realize there was a Game of Thrones called Fire and Ice cause I've never read Game of Thrones.

PAZ: Isn't the series technically called A Song of Fire and Ice?

JULIAN: Ice and Fire?

PAZ: Ice and Fire? I don't fucking know.

JULIAN: I think so.

PAZ: I could have a completely false memory of all of this.

JULIAN: It's just that when I google Fire and Ice, I kept getting Game of Thrones results.

PAZ: See? But I finally sat down and thought about it. And I was like, Oh, I know. I understand now. It's because it's winter, and he is Fireheart.

LIZ: I mean, according to Fireheart, it would be you know, it's winter and how handsome Tallstar looks in the sun.

JULIAN: It's winter and I have a crush on the WindClan leader.

PAZ: It happens.

JULIAN: Who doesn't? Yeah, no, I think overall, like I liked a lot of the characterization, aside from Bluestar. I liked a lot of characterization in the book. Even if I'm fed up with Graystripe, he has a personality at least.

PAZ: Yeah, it definitely felt like the characters got more like internal life in this book versus the first book, and they felt less like stock characters.

LIZ: Yeah. Graystripe, I mean, as much of a monkey's paw as that ended up being, he's definitely not you know, exposition guy anymore. And like he's being very--

PAZ: He's the guy who sucks.

LIZ: He's being very irresponsible and irritating, but he's supposed to be that way now, and it works well with what's going on.

PAZ: Yeah. And I know we said it a billion times, but Tigerclaw's shift to just being like, mean teacher who's sort of right is extremely funny.

JULIAN: It's really good. He's a delightful villain.

PAZ: He is so much fun.

LIZ: He is, yeah. With his scary leg reaching for your little moss ball.

JULIAN: Oh, yeah.

LIZ: And obviously like Fireheart gets a lot more interiority now. He isn't just like lucky protagonist. I'll say, I wasn't really expecting like the little subplot with him and Princess because I thought like once he left, that was it. I'm an outdoor cat now. So that was like a good introduction of no, it's some conflict and like nostalgia and stuff that you really didn't get or was really hinted at much earlier on.

JULIAN: Yeah, I like that we're seeing some like questioning of his past choices.

LIZ: It would be great if other cats also had some questioning of their past choices, but that seems to be like, indoor cat exclusive.

PAZ: It's the vaccines. Yeah, I think that the whole like Princess subplot, it lent a lot to him like, feeling like a more developed character in this book, cause yeah, he does, like develop like a sort of internal conflict, in addition to like, the external conflicts he's having. I forgot that-- I mean, I haven't read the series-- but I forgot like, Princess was a thing where like, his siblings are really important. We all clearly forgot about Cloudkit.

JULIAN: God.

CHICKPEA: [meow]

JULIAN: What a little guy.

LIZ: He's just a little guy. He's not doing anything but just being like, I am a baby. I am two days old. Why is everyone so mean to me?

PAZ: Everyone wants this child dead.

JULIAN: Ugh.

PAZ: Can't stand white cats.

LIZ: Everyone's so racist against white cats.

JULIAN: Only this white cat, this baby white cat. Cause fucking What's-her-face is fine.

LIZ: Frostfur.

PAZ: We love Frostfur. Hate this baby.

JULIAN: Hate this baby, who looks like he could be hers, and is two weeks old.

PAZ: God, I... the things that this book like, does where it's like, it was like real bad with the Cinderpaw and Deadfoot like juxtaposition, like double standard. But the fucking white fur of Cinderkit and Frostfur is extremely funny.

LIZ: I just think it would be real funny if Cloudkit was also orange.

PAZ: Yeah, who is Princess getting down with? Where'd these babies come from?

JULIAN: I mean, what color is Princess?

LIZ: Fucking like, fancy ass white Persian cat, I guess.

JULIAN: Is Princess also orange? I'm sure the wiki will tell me.

LIZ: Oh, I hope she's also orange.

PAZ: I assumed she was orange. Jake was orange, the dad.

LIZ: I mean, I think it's like a thing that-- isn't it, like aren't orange cats usually like male or something? Something like that.

PAZ: Oh, yeah, that's right.

JULIAN: She's a light brown tabby with a distinctive white chest and paws.

PAZ: I see. She has socks.

JULIAN: Do we know anything about Cloudkit's father? Oliver!

PAZ: Oh my god!

LIZ: What?!

PAZ: That's my cat.

LIZ: What? Paz, you know this.

JULIAN: It was revealed on the-- it was "revealed" on the Warriors website family tree.

PAZ: I love when things are revealed, as all things are on the Warriors wiki.

JULIAN: And he was a white cat. So that's where Cloudkit got it.

PAZ: I see. Once again raising the question of why are none of the cats in this neighborhood neutered or spayed.

JULIAN: Massive balls on these guys.

LIZ: Like some of them, like get fixed, but... like enough, that it's like a worry for Fireheart when he actually learned about it.

JULIAN: Not enough.

PAZ: Not enough.

LIZ: Not enough. He has siblings. Apparently, not enough.

PAZ: I mean, I overall really liked the book. The stuff with Cinderpaw is bad.

JULIAN: Yeah.

PAZ: It sucks that I know it'll keep being an issue in the books.

LIZ: The pivot to that was so abrupt, too. I didn't-- I very much did not enjoy that. It was pretty much as soon as something happened to her, her whole narrative changed. And the treatment of her changed.

JULIAN: Yeah, like it's pretty jarring.

LIZ: From the text and like from the characters both, and it sucked.

PAZ: Yeah. I mean, I do remember liking her later on. But it sucks that like this-- I don't know. This is such a weird and badly handled element of her character.

JULIAN: Like, I think she's still-- stuff that happens or that-- like the rest of her arc is also not great. But she continues to be like a very fun and good character.

PAZ: It's like, if you wanted a medicine cat apprentice, you didn't need to, like, set up this weird, like, narrative that handles disability very badly.

JULIAN: Yeah, you could just have Yellowfang take an apprentice.

LIZ: Why not Brackenpaw? He's not really... He's very, like, reserved. I think they're personality compatible. He seems to be having a-- we don't know how he's doing as a warrior. Like, does he even want this? Because he's not getting any teaching very much.

PAZ: Right? I think that would have been interesting.

JULIAN: I mean, you could even have had-- you could even have made like Cinderpaw a medicine cat apprentice and like, had her for some reason spend time with Yellowfang in the medicine cat den, like Fireheart did as an apprentice, and have Yellowfang be like, hey, you're really good at this. You should do this. And then Cinderpaw can have some conflict because she wants to be a warrior. But she's really good at this one thing, whatever. Like you don't have to-- you can have like, someone have complicated feelings about their job without it being like, this was the job you were assigned.

PAZ: Yeah, I mean, it could even be a thing of like, maybe our clan should have more than one doctor and like, I can help with this. Like, oh, I really would help the clan way more if I became a medicine cat apprentice, or something like that, you know?

LIZ: It's like perfectly set up for that, like timewise because they're in like this very high tension time with all the other clans, and there's all these attacks happening. It's winter. A baby just died.

JULIAN: Yeah, like they have the whole green cough epidemic, like that could be a catalyst. There's a lot of things that could have happened.

LIZ: Yellowfang puts one paw on Bluestar's shoulder like, you fucking need more than one doctor. Listen to me.

PAZ: But only two at a time. We need more than one, but you can only have a max of two.

JULIAN: Like not to be like, oh, we shouldn't have any disabled characters at all. Like, obviously we should. But not like this.

LIZ: No.

PAZ: Yeah, it's like Cinderpaw being disabled is not the issue. It's the way the book writes her narrative. And how it got to that spot. I mean, like, the disability shouldn't be tied into like, forcing her to take a certain position because that's just, like bad implications.

LIZ: And it ties into the wider problem of how she's the only-- the one on like, who gets a spotlight on her because there's so few of them.

JULIAN: Should we talk about Graystripe and Silverstream?

LIZ: Yes.

PAZ: Uh-huh. Yeah.

JULIAN: Um, so I did a little digging.

LIZ: Oh, thank god.

JULIAN: And unfortunately, because of the great, great loss that was the deletion of the Warrior Cats forums, I was not able to find, like, actual primary sources about what people thought about Graystripe. Um, I did find a little, just a real teaser, which was the title of a forum post that was just MY THOUGHTS ABOUT GRAYSTRIPE in all caps. And it had like 50-something replies. But the Wayback Machine had not saved the actual thread.

LIZ: No.

JULIAN: But I was able to find, let's see. I went into the talk page for Graystripe on the Warriors wiki, which features a lot of discourse about his parents. Apparently, Vicky accidentally made his parents two cats who later turned out to be siblings.

LIZ: Oh no.

JULIAN: Um, so there's a lot of people in the wiki going back and forth about like, oh, the family is incorrect and people being like, well, it was only said that one time on Vicky's Facebook page. So is it really canon? And then it showed up in the Warrior Cats family tree, which has its own problems as a source apparently. I fell deep down a hole.

LIZ: Oh no.

PAZ: It's just like Graystripe to cause these problems.

JULIAN: It really is. How could he do this? We don't need to read this out loud necessarily because it's extremely long. But, uh.

LIZ: Oh my god.

JULIAN: Someone's very upset. "I love the Warriors series, but it's really annoying when I can pick up all these mistakes, and no one is doing anything to fix them. This whole Graystripe is the kit of Willowpelt and Patchpelt is just a big mistake they are siblings. Even for Warriors standards that is not right! The family trees need to be fixed so they actually make sense because I refuse to acknowledge them as being true until they are actually have substantial evidence as to be incorrect. -Fawnfur."

LIZ: Can I--

PAZ: Nightfall responds, "Watch the caps, but I agree with you 100% about Willowpelt and Patchpelt. But I do not believe that Sandstorm is the kit of Redtail and Brindleface."

LIZ: This gets-- listen, let's fix this. Let us fix this.

JULIAN: Hollytail here. "The author, Vicky included, are only human. They make mistakes like the rest of us. If they made something up that we know is incorrect do we simply blindly follow them?"

PAZ: That's a great question, Hollytail.

LIZ: Damn.

JULIAN: Hollytail, that's what fanfic is for.

LIZ: Damn.

PAZ: Yeah, Hollytail, you make your own canon.

JULIAN: And then Sunnyfrost out here. "Leave the authors alone. They're busy. How would you like to draft books, then edit them, then ship them off to a publisher? If the mistakes are that bad, someone would have changed by now."

LIZ: Well.

JULIAN: Sunnyfrost, I admire your optimism, but they would not.

LIZ: Sunnyfrost.

PAZ: It's so funny because realistically inbreeding would in fact be an issue because they all refuse to be friends with any other cat's clan.

JULIAN: We also have-- again, this is in the wiki talk page.

LIZ: Oh my god.

JULIAN: User Diamond Graystripe Diamond, with a little user tag that says, "I love you, Silverstream..." says, "All right, I really don't care if someone deletes this with a message saying please stay on topic. This is about whether the article needs improvement or not. Because I feel like I must say this. I love Graystripe."

PAZ: Oh shit.

JULIAN: "He's sooooo awesome." Three heart emojis.

LIZ: Oh my god.

Graystripe defender has logged on.

JULIAN: The Graystripe defender is here.

LIZ: On the wiki!

JULIAN: "This talk page is for discussion on how to improve the article. So please do not clutter the talk page with such messages unless you think something should be added or improved on the article." But they didn't remove the post.

LIZ: Well, I think that speaks for itself.

JULIAN: I then went on to user LoveGraystripe's user page.

LIZ: Oh boy.

JULIAN: And it turns out-- so this is Graystripemegafan160.

LIZ: Oh my god.

JULIAN: And it turns out that on the Warrior Cats wiki, you can have little badges on your user page.

PAZ: Oh my god.

JULIAN: And this person has made a collection of their favorite/most hated cats.

PAZ: Oh.

LIZ: Oh my god.

JULIAN: It has some spoilers, but I can read the ones that are not spoily.

PAZ: Please.

JULIAN: Spoilery. This user is a fan of Graystripe.

LIZ: Mm-hmm.

JULIAN: This user is a fan of Yellowfang.

PAZ: Okay.

JULIAN: This user is a fan of Bluestar. This user is a fan of Tigerclaw. This user is a fan of Sandstorm. This user is a fan of Dustpelt. Wild choice.

PAZ: There's a lot of ups and downs in this list. I agree.

LIZ: I feel like we're missing someone crucial. Wait a minute.

JULIAN: This user is a fan of Cinderpelt.

LIZ: Interesting.

JULIAN: This user dislikes Fireheart.

LIZ: I knew it!

PAZ: Oh no.

JULIAN: Onewhisker.

PAZ: Oh my god!

LIZ: Wow, we cannot be friends.

PAZ: Wow, this person is the enemy of our podcast. This person's a shadow.

JULIAN: Spottedleaf.

LIZ: [gasps] How? What did she do? She died.

PAZ: She's too sexy, too good smelling.

JULIAN: And Cloudkit.

LIZ: What?! Is this just-- hey, is this just Tigerclaw? Listen. Did he make his own?

PAZ: Oh my god.

JULIAN: It's his own user page.

PAZ: How does this person have the like, direct opposite opinions of us?

LIZ: Listen, Diamond Graystripe Diamond, super script that says I love you Silverstream dot, dot, dot, if you're listening to this right now, 11 years in the future, we cannot be friends. We will ask you to come on the podcast to debate us in the forum of ideas. But we cannot be friends.

PAZ: Damn. What did Cinder-- not, fuck. What did Cloudkit do to them?

JULIAN: I mean, so the user dislikes Cloudkit as an adult. So maybe he does some shit.

LIZ: Oh, maybe he does.

JULIAN: That they don't like but I don't remember.

PAZ: I don't remember really.

JULIAN: They also seem to dislike all of the other members of the Power of Three gang, except for Jayfeather.

PAZ: Okay, I mean, I am not fond of Lionblaze. He was boring from what I remember, but Hollyleaf fucking ruled.

JULIAN: She's great.

PAZ: But I do also love Jayfeather, so at least they like him.

JULIAN: The rest of the discourse is a lot about some stuff that happens later with Graystripe and Silverstream's relationship. But people were big fans of Graystripe and Silverstream. Thought it was extremely romantic. There really was not much in the way of like dislike for Graystripe. I also looked on my old ProBoards forum, but it was all Graystripe fans, except for Dovekit.

PAZ: Wow.

JULIAN: Who only made 20 posts ever. But in a thread called "Favorite/Most Hated Warrior Cats," in 2010 said, "my absolute despise though is shocker, Graystripe."

LIZ: [gasps]

JULIAN: "I liked him at first, but," um, spoiler, spoiler, spoiler, uh, "sometimes I just feel like screaming in these moments."

PAZ: Me too, Dovekit. Damn.

JULIAN: I feel you, Dovekit. I wonder if this is because like, this is the first like, relationship that you would see in these books.

PAZ: That's true.

LIZ: Like, the kids reading this are like, Oh my god, romance. This is so romantic.

JULIAN: Romance is real. And I think like for a certain subset of like 12 year olds, it's like, oh, it's Graystripe. He's like the, you know, whatever, hunky boy cat who's gonna like, throw his clan away for me. You know, that's the fantasy.

LIZ: Are you sure you want Graystripe?

PAZ: I'm good, actually.

JULIAN: I didn't say that was my fantasy. We also did a poll about who's your fave, and Fireheart and Graystripe were tied for first, with three votes.

PAZ: Wow. Three votes.

LIZ: Wow.

PAZ: I do got to say reading the second book has really made me come around on Fireheart even more. I mean, the whole reason I never read the first series is because I thought he was boring when I tried to read the first book, but I'm coming around on him.

LIZ: He's a nice young man, except--

PAZ: He's my little meow meow.

JULIAN: We also did get a couple of people on Twitter telling us what they thought.

PAZ: Can you link that?

JULIAN: Yes.

PAZ: You wanna read the first one, Julian?

JULIAN: Sure. Yeah. The first one is from Erin, Twitter user @capricioustube, who says "I think I thought she was way cooler than he was. And I also think I was like, guys, Romeo/Juliet bullshit is too much work. You're all cats. But I'm way behind on the old pod, so hopefully Silverstream isn't a problematic queen."

PAZ: I don't know the answer to that either. I'm waiting to see.

JULIAN: I don't remember.

PAZ: That's funny, because I'm sure we'll see more of her in future books, but she's really like a non character in this book.

JULIAN: Yeah, she really does not have a role.

PAZ: Besides to tempt Graystripe away. So far, her character is like, equally as dumb as Graystripe, frankly.

JULIAN: They deserve each other.

PAZ: Yeah.

LIZ: Well, okay, here's what they have in common. They are both gray cats. That's what I got.

PAZ: Both don't care about causing diplomatic incidents.

LIZ: Love swimming?

PAZ: I guess.

JULIAN: There you go.

PAZ: Graystripe warmed up to it, I guess.

JULIAN: Um, and then our other person to weigh in on Twitter was Twitter user, @letmygaysmarry, who says "I read Warriors when I was 12. So I thought their love was sweet and romantic. But now I look back on it like, wow, the Erins loved offing delicate young maidens for manpain. There's dozens of them."

PAZ: So true.

LIZ: Oh my god.

JULIAN: "Graystripe is still the MVP however. Fireheart/Graystripe/Ravenpaw forever."

PAZ: That's so true.

JULIAN: Which, yeah, correct. Thank you.

PAZ: That would have been a much better outcome.

LIZ: I think okay, just to clarify, I think Graystripe and Silverstream are both dumb, but in comparing the two of them, I still think Silverstream could do better.

PAZ: Yeah, I mean, I think anyone, any she-cat could do better than Graystripe at this point.

JULIAN: The bar is in the river.

PAZ: Yeah, we didn't even talk at the end about how Graystripe committed like three manslaughters in this book.

JULIAN: His body count is racking up.

PAZ: And brought about the plague.

JULIAN: We talked about war crimes being Tigerclaw's ult. But what about Graystripe?

LIZ: At least one of those was intentional, right? Because it was-- I don't know.

PAZ: He did one intentional murder, which was when he said like, I'd die for you or something to Fireheart.

LIZ: Well, that slapped to me though.

JULIAN: Yeah, that was romantic.

PAZ: That was so romantic. And then we had one email specifically on Graystripe and Silverstream from Bri bird-- bribird_wings. I've never had to say underscore out loud. "Okay, so here are my Graystripe/Silverstream thoughts. I loved Silverstream as a kid. I don't actually think she had all that much screentime in the actual novels, but I did adore her. Must a character have a personality? Is it not enough to be 10 and like a pretty silver kitty with a pretty name?"

LIZ: Bribird, you're so right. I respect that.

PAZ: Absolutely. "I wasn't super big on Graystripe, but if a girl I like loves a mediocre guy, then I will begrudgingly tolerate the mediocre guy, so I could tolerate Graystripe if only to see more Silverstream."

LIZ: This is the right way to view it, I think.

PAZ: "I have more thoughts, but they're spoilers, so I'm not sure if I should share." Yeah, we're-- no spoilers.

LIZ: Can I close my eyes?

PAZ: Um.

LIZ: I'll take off my headphones. You just have to text me to come back on.

PAZ: Let me read it. I'll just say it's similar to a sentiment expressed in a tweet. In the email, "anyways, I love the show congrats on finishing Fire and Ice. I was obsessed with Warriors as a kid, so hearing you go through the books is a ton of fun for me." From Bri. Thank you. Thank you for writing in, too.

JULIAN: Aw.

PAZ: I think that was a very--

LIZ: I think that was very insightful.

PAZ: Yes. Very, very pragmatic outlook as a 10-year-old.

JULIAN: You know, a positive spin on the Graystripe sucks front.

PAZ: I mean, it is realistic for like the pretty girl you like to have a very mediocre boyfriend.

LIZ: Okay, also, I was laughing a little bit before cause I was looking at all the emails we got. And then we just got one from Google. It said, "Pawd, take the next step on your Windows by confirming your Google account settings."

PAZ: That's us, Mr. Pawd.

LIZ: Pawd underscore Cast.

JULIAN: That's us.

PAZ: That's my legal name. Thank you. Yeah, I mean, I wish I had personal thoughts from the time on Graystripe and Silverstream. But I do not because I didn't read the first series. But God, I do remember liking Graystripe in later books. So I guess he gets cooler, but like I said, he's really... I don't know. This book might have damaged his reputation irreparably in my eyes.

LIZ: Maybe he gets a redemption arc.

PAZ: I don't know.

JULIAN: You know, which one of us doesn't act like a total ding-dong in our first relationship.

PAZ: That's true. I had no idea how he gets to the point he is in at the start of A New Prophecy. So I'll be very excited to read that.

JULIAN: I know how he gets there, but not where he is at the start of A New Prophecy. So.

PAZ: I remember his arc in A New Prophecy pretty clearly. I have some questions, looking back on it. Questions that are at the very foundation of the Warriors saga. I don't know. Is there anything else to add on on Graystripe and Silverstream?

JULIAN: I don't think so, at least not on my end. Oh, we do have-- one of Alix's questions for us is asking Liz specifically for predictions on how things go with Graystripe and his high school girlfriend.

LIZ: They're gonna be-- they're gonna have a TikTok house together.

PAZ: Oh no. This is so dark.

JULIAN: What a horrifying ending for them.

LIZ: I just-- you know the video, it's like that couple, and then the woman is like, cause a Hufflepuff and a Ravenclaw fell in love.

PAZ: Yes. Oh my god.

LIZ: And we're gonna give birth to Bushdid911 420 or whatever.

PAZ: Yes, I do.

LIZ: It feels like the serious version of that. I'm so sorry, Silverstream. I really did come around on you after that first email.

JULIAN: Their first child, Bushdid911420kit?

LIZ: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

PAZ: I am curious to hear how you think like, this... like, obviously going to be a diplomatic incident situation will play out.

LIZ: I do think they'll probably stay together. Because that's like the whole, like the crux of the tragedy, like, oh, we're so in love, but we cannot be together, except we're just gonna keep doing it anyway.

PAZ: Yeah, I will say this about Graystripe. He's committed. Um, but we have some other questions about the books as a whole, if we want to move on to those.

LIZ: Yeah, we can do those.

JULIAN: Oh yeah, sorry.

PAZ: Okay. So Alix also sent in a few other questions, so we'll just read those ones too. Okay, first one. "What do you guys think of the progression of Sandpaw/Sandstorm's arc in this book? I kind of liked that she and Fireheart are getting closer, while Graystripe is off being a ding dong. It leaves a pretty natural gap for her to fill."

LIZ: I agree. I liked the part where she stepped in to help find the kits, because it's not just like, a clear romantic like interest role. It's also like, here's a friend who's actually there for you role

JULIAN: Yeah, it feels like they have a pretty strong foundation of friendship, which is nice. Um, I do remember as a kid. I mean, I had a crush on every female cat in this book. But I also had an especially a crush on Sandstorm because she's very competent.

PAZ: Yeah. I think I remember liking her. But it was another situation where I was like, she's boring because I didn't really like ever get her story. Yeah, but I like her scenes in this book a lot. I like the progression from like, Fireheart like, saving her life into like, forming like an actual friendship.

LIZ: Yeah. I like that she doesn't like, soften up completely just because she's more like personable to the protagonist, if you know what I mean. Cause she's still pretty, like, rash and active in what she wants to do.

PAZ: Like go do war crimes on RiverClan.

LIZ: Oh, yeah.

JULIAN: Oh, she did want to do war crimes, didn't she?

LIZ: She sure did.

PAZ: I think most cats in this book wanted to do war crimes.

JULIAN: Yeah, I was gonna say if we were to cut out-- if we were to cancel cats just for wanting to do war crimes, we would have no cats left.

PAZ: But I guess, Liz, can you tell it's like being set up as romance?

LIZ: Yes. Because she is a girl. It's pretty-- it's not like Spottedleaf level of she smells like I don't know, cakes and something uniquely her or whatever. But it definitely is, this is the girl.

PAZ: Yeah, yeah, it's true. She's the only female cat Fireheart's age right now.

LIZ: And with that in mind, it's not the worst it could be. I'm not mad about it.

PAZ: No.

LIZ: She still like, retains her personality. And she has to do some of the listening to his problems and comforting him. But it's not the most egregious it could be.

PAZ: I feel like I might like their arc. I'll be curious to see.

LIZ: I would like it more if he also listened to more of her problems, which he does do some of. Like, when he's like, wow, it's really weird that you're so competent, cool, have been an apprentice longer than me, and still haven't been promoted. And she's just kind of like, pained grimace. Yeah.

PAZ: I'm like, I'm certain she'll definitely become like an increasingly big presence as the books go on. So I'm not that worried about her getting her own good screentime.

JULIAN: I mean, I think he listens to her problems more than he listens to anyone else's.

LIZ: That's true.

PAZ: Yeah, I think I remember Fireheart being a wife guy, in a good way.

LIZ: This is why in Julian's forum's poll I would be voting for Fireheart, not Graystripe.

PAZ: Yeah. Graystripe's a wife guy in a bad way.

LIZ: And then his wife is just still cooler than him. And he doesn't really do anything.

JULIAN: Wife guy (derogatory).

PAZ: The other question. "Lastly, if one of your cats was given up by their mother to go in the clans."

LIZ: Oh my god.

PAZ: "Which one would have the most success and acclaim as a clan cat?" I guess I'm the only one here with more than one cat. How would Chickpea do as a clan cat, Julian?

JULIAN: We talk about this often. She would do very badly. She is extremely stupid and, like actively extremely bad at hunting.

LIZ: Aw.

PAZ: Aw.

JULIAN: She just like-- as soon as something stops moving, she doesn't care about it anymore. And like, the big thing that prey does is it stops moving so you won't care about it anymore.

PAZ: Oh, my God, she gets fooled.

LIZ: Chickpea.

JULIAN: She also regularly gets so into playing with her toy or whatever that she falls off the couch.

LIZ: Aw.

JULIAN: So I think she would go right over the side of a cliff real quick.

LIZ: But imagine if she did become a warrior, her name would be like, Chickpaw. Chickpelt.

PAZ: [laughs] Chickpelt.

LIZ: Chickclaw. You got to really enunciate to get that right, but that's very fierce. And she is very fierce.

JULIAN: She is extremely fierce. That would be a pro on her side is that she will not hesitate to take a chunk out of you.

PAZ: Well, with my cats, it's pretty obviously Kip Jazzman. He-- as I said last week, he killed like three mice within the span of 24 hours, with a bell collar on.

JULIAN: He's such an accomplished hunter.

PAZ: I think he might be OP, frankly, if he were to join a clan.

JULIAN: His protagonist halo.

PAZ: But he is white and gray, so I guess he can't join a clan.

LIZ: Unless it snows.

PAZ: Tragically. My one cat Loo, her actual name's Waterloo. She was found in the forest, but I don't think she would really actually be good as a clan cat were she to return because she's not a very good hunter.

LIZ: Aw.

JULIAN: Yeah, Chickpea was also like a stray, but I don't think she was very good at it. I think someone was feeding her.

LIZ: Aw.

PAZ: Well, that's our answers.

LIZ: They could band together. I just think they'd be one like competent warrior cat together.

PAZ: I do like that Alix signs off the email with "fuck Graystripe." Thank you.

LIZ: Thank you very much, Alix.

PAZ: Then we have two emails from Kavi.

LIZ: We should save her last email for last because it's really good.

PAZ: Yeah, I agree. It was incredible just reading that subject line and the body of that email.

LIZ: I logged in and I just laughed out loud.

PAZ: Does somebody want to read her other email though?

LIZ: I can read it. I also have been talking a lot lately, so maybe someone else could read it.

JULIAN: I was thinking I'd been talking too much.

PAZ: I feel like I've been talking too much.

LIZ: We all have the same problem. Let's round robin read it, every two words.

PAZ: Oh my god.

LIZ: Equality.

JULIAN: That'll be a great experience for the listeners.

LIZ: Okay, hold on. Dice roller.

JULIAN: Oh my god, I can just read it.

PAZ: Okay.

LIZ: [laughing so hard they're nearly incomprehensible] Dice roller d2. A coin.

JULIAN: [emphatically] "Hi Stairclan."

[laughter]

"Hi Stairclan, Kavi here. I'm thinking about how Cinderpaw feels about being a burden on the clan and how we've talked about like fascism-adjacent warrior culture stuff in the clans. Without denying the ableism on the authors' part, I wonder if part of where Cinderpaw's internalized ableism comes from is the way these societies are structured. Queens contribute via reproductive labor. And elders are collecting debt on past contributions. But even so, I do recall it being a plot point in later books that eeeevil clan leaders treat elders way worse than ThunderClan or things like that." Evil has like three tildes on either side.

"In a grim way, it's kind of consistent with the passively terrifying undercurrent of the clan social structure. I'd love to hear your thoughts! Really enjoying the show."

PAZ: Thank you. This is a great question.

LIZ: Thanks.

JULIAN: Yeah, I think like, I saw some discussion of this in the #warriorcatsableism hashtag. I think where I came out on it was less like that the elders were like, collecting debt points, although I guess it is-- that is like certainly a reading of it. And more that like, the clans, like do value every member. Cause like there is a-- occasionally the authors will throw out like a, oh, the clans really care about life, like the way that they're supposed to bury the rabbit bones or whatever. So I think like, there is a reading of it that's like, hey, the clans have a society with a sort of undercurrent of care for every member and like socialism. But maybe that is-- or like socialized medicine. But maybe that is me reading it the way I would like the clan to be and not the way it actually is.

PAZ: I mean, I do think that the clans have very, very clear roles, for sure. And as we've said, these cats need more jobs, but they only have a very small number of roles. So I definitely think I mean, like within the fiction, Cinderpaw's like, internalized ableism and conflict is certainly coming from the fact that like, there's like five roles. And she's like, I don't know which one to do now.

LIZ: Five is really generous, I think. Are there five?

PAZ: Okay, there's leader, warrior. Pregnant. [laughs]

LIZ: Pregnant, old.

PAZ: Old, apprentice. Yeah.

LIZ: All right. Okay, that's five.

JULIAN: Yeah, I guess like, the way I was thinking about it was that like, a lot of those roles are life stages. Like, you started as a kit and you transition to an apprentice, and then you become a warrior, or possibly a medicine cat. And then maybe somewhere in there, you become a queen. Maybe not. But like, once you're a queen, like, you can go back to being a warrior. And then when you get really old, you're an elder. So it feels less like, this is your government assigned job. And more like, the roles are a little bit more fluid.

LIZ: Yeah, I do like that it's fluid, especially with regards to like, you know, having a kid because that just seems to be like, a slightly more official titled like parent leave. But yeah, it is still, like, very limited. And, like, that limitation definitely affects characters like Cinderpaw. And the roles that are there are very, like, direct. Direct's not really the right word, but like, there is like, an expectation of some sort of contribution.

PAZ: Yeah, I feel like that underlies all the roles except elders. Although I can't remember if I'm making this up or not, if the elders act as the history keepers, or like, advice givers or something. But like--

JULIAN: Yeah, I think there's some stuff.

PAZ: The roles are tied to like, very much like giving something.

LIZ: I mean, the vibe I got from the elders is also like, these are not just old cats but like old veterans, because it makes a point at some part like talking about like, injuries they've had and something like that. So I don't know how this is trying to handle that even.

PAZ: And I think Kavi's point about evil clan leaders or evil clans being framed differently is really important. Cause I feel like when you're like looking at ThunderClan, which is supposed to be like the, quote unquote, "good" clan is much easier to view the system as like, collective and like universal medicine, etc., but that if like, the authors can frame the same sort of system in an evil clan, like much more like, fascist adjacent and like, stuff like that.

JULIAN: Yeah, I think I remember actually with when Brokenstar like takes over ShadowClan that there's something about like the elders are having to hunt or something. And this is framed as like, oh, that's super fucked up. They shouldn't have to be doing that.

PAZ: Yeah, I think you're right, or they got kicked out or something like that.

JULIAN: Which would point to like, a assumption that like, oh, they're not contributing anymore. So they don't matter.

PAZ: Yeah, and I also like-- I just remembered like the way Bluestar was kind of like with Ravenpaw, where some cats are better outside the clan. But it was sort of framed in a way where like, well, if he doesn't want to contribute, he shouldn't be here or something like that. Kind of the undercurrent of what that was. So there's like that too.

JULIAN: Yeah, definitely. Especially because that coincides with him being super anxious.

PAZ: Yeah, not great like mental health care there in ThunderClan, either.

LIZ: Especially given that they just-- again, they have one doctor.

JULIAN: They have one doctor, and every one of these cats has to be traumatized.

LIZ: One doctor who's also traumatized and like, super old. So she should be resting at some point, too.

PAZ: Right?

JULIAN: Yeah, when does Yellowfang get to be an elder?

LIZ: Never.

PAZ: I forget with medicine cats if they get to be elders. I can't remember. That'd be kind of fucked up if they don't.

LIZ: I mean, theoretically, she could retire at some point, but I don't know, the way these books are going, I don't know if she's gonna get to.

PAZ: I legit can't remember if medicine cats are allowed to retire. That's, they probably are, but--

JULIAN: I'm looking on the wiki.

PAZ: The fact that I can't remember is a little damning.

LIZ: Worrying.

JULIAN: I mean, also, like, how many cats do we actually see become elders and not die horribly?

LIZ: Exactly.

PAZ: Well.

LIZ: It's very grim.

PAZ: I do think I feel like at least-- I know, the later books at least like do sort of bring the like whole like, clans as like, enemies structure into like, like a critical light. But I can't remember if the internal structure is ever really much analyzed.

LIZ: I think it would be a pretty natural, like, next step, if it was something-- sorry, this is a very convoluted sentence. I mean, like if the arc of like Fireheart's book or something was that he grows up and starts to view the clan structure more critically, it would have been a very, like, natural next step for him to try and like-- "change from the inside" is like, very... It's got connotations. But that's what I would have, like expected from this sort of like kids book, you know,

PAZ: I guess you'll have to see what happens.

LIZ: Yeah.

PAZ: Yeah, but I think we gave our best thoughts on that question.

LIZ: There should be other things to do in your cat society besides hunt and do--

PAZ: Fight.

LIZ: --war crimes, and be president, and briefly, make a child.

JULIAN: Make a child is such a way to describe that.

PAZ: In--

JULIAN: And it's like--

PAZ: Go ahead.

JULIAN: Sorry, go ahead. No, I was gonna just say that I think there like, are like other roles, but they're all lumped into warrior. So it's like, if you're not a warrior, you can't do anything that's like-- the warriors are all the ones who do all the teaching and interfacing with other clans. Interfacing.

PAZ: Cyberpunk Warriors AU.

JULIAN: But yeah, it's like, if you're not a warrior, you don't have like, a exterior life in a big way.

PAZ: Yeah, cause-- no, I think that elders can go to the gatherings. I feel like I remember reading that passing detail. But I think it's like if-- I don't know. I mean, if you're not like, a warrior, really, you're not going?

JULIAN: Yeah, I think they can but there's such a limited number of cats that can go to the gathering that it's usually the warriors who get to go, or like apprentices.

LIZ: And like so far, our character perspective is pretty limited to what Fireheart does. So maybe we see more later, but I don't know. It's just, it's also like, it's like you said. Warriors do do a lot of things, but it's all lumped into being a warrior. So like, if you don't do one part of being a warrior, you can't really do the part that you want to, if you want to do that. And then being a warrior gets like a lot of-- I don't want to say social clout, because that's not like the right thing. But like you get a lot of social respect and like access to doing certain things that you definitely wouldn't be able to otherwise.

JULIAN: Yeah, like you can't go on missions, or like patrol, or... like even Yellowfang is always sending people out to gather herbs for her because she needs to be there in case something happens.

PAZ: No, it just comes down to these cats need more jobs or more broad definitions of these jobs. I don't know, any other--

JULIAN: Should we do Liz's-- oh sorry, go ahead.

PAZ: What?

JULIAN: Oh, I was gonna say, should we do Liz's predictions?

PAZ: Yeah. Do we have any other thoughts on Fire and Ice before we get into our prophecies?

LIZ: Oh, just thank you to Kavi for that question. It was a--

PAZ: Yes.

LIZ: It was something to chew on. Yeah.

PAZ: Yep.

LIZ: I don't know. Do you guys want to cover anything else first, from the book, I mean?

PAZ: I just want to say once again, WindClan is the best clan. They've done nothing wrong. Hashtag WindClan's done nothing wrong.

LIZ: You've been on that from the beginning, and it's just true.

PAZ: It's true.

LIZ: Yeah, it is.

PAZ: They might do something wrong later. I can't remember, but as of right now, nothing.

JULIAN: I'm excited to see the further development of the Onewhisker/Fireheart relationship.

PAZ: Absolutely. We are on that watch. We're ringing the alarm bell, once it happens.

LIZ: A political alliance? Or maybe something more? A

PAZ: I need to go take a look at what Ao3 has going on.

JULIAN: 100k arranged marriage slowburn.

PAZ: It's so-- I remembered something that happens later and it makes it even better.

JULIAN: Oh good.

PAZ: So I'm on this ride for the long haul.

LIZ: Do you guys remember when that book came out? I won't mention the name, but it was the one that was just like a space opera thing romance?

JULIAN: Oh yeah.

LIZ: But it was just like Finnpoe. Very obvious from the cover.

JULIAN: Oh, no.

LIZ: No?

JULIAN: I don't remember that.

LIZ: I will send that to you later.

JULIAN: Thank you.

LIZ: I know it'll be a lot harder to disguise two cats. Or maybe it won't be. But any writers who are listening to this, you have my blessing.

PAZ: I think that's a good note to close out Fire and Ice on. So Liz, I am dying to hear what you think will happen in-- god, what is the next book called? It's Forest of Secrets, right?

LIZ: Ooh.

JULIAN: Yep.

PAZ: Is that right?

JULIAN: It's a very good title.

PAZ: That's right, right?

JULIAN: Yeah, it is. I downloaded it from the library already.

LIZ: I think I borrowed that during our hiatus, and my time is up actually.

JULIAN: Oh no!

LIZ: Foolish.

PAZ: Yeah, I did get the Libby notification yesterday. It's been returned.

LIZ: Oh no. No! Oh god. Libby. Okay. One, Tigerclaw will be got-got. Like really got-got this time. Like for real. Like actually. It's the third book. That's like-- it's a very iconic number, you know. So they're gonna get him.

JULIAN: Third time's the charm.

LIZ: And he'll be like, if it wasn't for you darn teens. I guess teens-- 20 to early 30s in cat age, I would have gotten away with becoming the evil president. Because I think his goal is definitely to become the evil president. We know this.

PAZ: Yeah, it's pretty obvious.

LIZ: Gray... stripe, forgot his name for a second-- and Silverstream, still together. Have announced it on their Facebook. They made a status update about it? I haven't had a Facebook in like a decade, so. And then there's just gonna be like a riot in the comments. People are gonna be like, no, and other people being like, love is love, to the straight cat couple.

Fireheart, gonna get promoted again. Gonna develop a little more thought. Feeling very conflicted about his friends. A lot of one-sided Fireheart/Graystripe feelings as Graystripe goes further away, but continues to risk his life for Fireheart. Onewhisker, though, definitely gonna show up. We'll see where that goes. Winky face. Cloudkit, still a baby. Gonna feel the weight of being microaggressed, though. Sorry to the small child. Yellowfang and Cinderpaw, gonna just have a good time being the only good cats. Bluestar will be assassinated. I feel in my bones.

PAZ: Oh shit. Who's gonna assassinate her?

LIZ: Um, Tigerclaw.

PAZ: Mmm.

LIZ: He's gonna get his driver's license. He's gonna get that hatchback.

PAZ: I see.

LIZ: Ah fuck. Who else is there? Dustpelt. He's gonna be in the passenger seat. Because he seems pretty antagonistic. Those are my predictions.

PAZ: Wow.

JULIAN: Beautiful. I took notes.

PAZ: I can't wait. We'll have to see. I personally have really no clue what happens in this upcoming book.

LIZ: I'm honestly very worried about Yellowfang and Cinderpaw. I know-- someone slipped and said Cinderpelt, so I know she keeps going. I'm very worried about what's gonna happen to her in the interim.

PAZ: Yeah, I know a lot of details, like, the big plot beats of this first series, but no idea like what order they happen in or when. I still have no idea when those other guys-- if you know, you know-- show up.

JULIAN: I feel like that might not be until the book after this.

PAZ: Yeah.

LIZ: Wow, we haven't even started Forest of Secrets. And you're already keeping secrets from me.

JULIAN: The real forest of secrets.

LIZ: This fucking podcast, damn. Should we make a secret prediction, because it is like forest of secrets?

PAZ: What the secret's gonna be?

JULIAN: Like a little prediction to keep in your heart?

LIZ: No, I mean, like, what the secret is. There has to be at least one.

PAZ: I feel like even though I don't know what happens specifically, I might still be not qualified to answer this because I might actually know.

JULIAN: My first thought is the main secret is just Graystripe and Silverstream. But uh, maybe there are other secrets that I've forgotten. It is a good ass name though.

LIZ: Yeah.

PAZ: Yeah, Fire and Ice was kind of a boring name, I'm gonna be real.

LIZ: That's just what every YA book is called.

PAZ: It's just Game of Thrones, as I said. Do you want to guess what the secret is, Liz?

LIZ: Cloudkit's real dad is Henry.

PAZ: Henry doesn't have balls!

JULIAN: It was a miraculous birth.

[laughter]

PAZ: Wow.

LIZ: Maybe Henry becomes his like real dad in the sense that he he becomes a stray and is the first kittypet to be a warrior post like seeing the vet and is just like very fatherly and supportive all kits, and is a wonderful presence in the clan, and brings about like, just better vibes. And Fireheart is like, oh, Henry, I'm sorry I was so derisive towards you. But then Henry is like, oh, I know you were just like, five. And your friend, Smudge? Is that his name? Smudge?

PAZ: Yeah.

LIZ: Says hi. And then they keep in touch. And they develop a wonderful back and forth because you can still talk to your friend cause you just live like a mile away or whatever.

PAZ: Beautiful.

LIZ: It's not really a secret anymore.

PAZ: I think the secret's probably gonna be multiple fucking things, like Tigerclaw, although it's not really-- it's not a secret cause Fireheart fucking told Bluestar. I don't know.

LIZ: It's a secret to everyone else, which is the worst part.

PAZ: Yeah. The Graystripe/Silverstream, definitely a secret. Maybe that other thing.

LIZ: I mean, like, probably Cloudkit's, you know, actual kittypet past?

PAZ: Yeah, I don't think Cloudkit knows actually at the moment. So it's a secret for him. I guess I'll just say I think Spottedleaf's ghost keeps showing up to be, I don't know, sexy. Maybe? That's what you get. I don't know, maybe RiverClan has more secrets.

LIZ: WindClan secretly moves away.

PAZ: Good for them.

JULIAN: They say fuck this, I'm out. If it sucks, hit the bricks.

PAZ: That's right.

LIZ: That's their official motto. I know the clans have little symbols. So they've got a wooden carving of that. And then under that this is a smaller wooden carving, and it just says, if it sucks, hit the bricks.

PAZ: That's why they're so good at running. Well, I really don't have anything else. I think that was a good book. And I am excited for the next one.

LIZ: Me too.

JULIAN: We should-- we should read Kavi's final email.

PAZ: Oh, I was just going to read that--

LIZ: Oh my god, I forgot. And it's so good.

PAZ: Are we gonna discuss it or just read that?

LIZ: I think we should just read it.

JULIAN: Oh, I think we should just read it.

LIZ: It's perfect as-is.

PAZ: We should read it right at the end. I think we should-- let's sign off. And we'll leave that question for everyone to ruminate on.

JULIAN: Alright.

PAZ: So thanks again, everyone, for joining us. Next week, we'll be reading Forest of Secrets. I completely forgot to determine what chapters we'll be reading. So look for that in the episode description, I guess. As always, you can find the show @staircast on Twitter. And you can always email questions or anecdotes you want to share to [email protected]. That'll be it for us this week. So as always, may StarClan light your path. And we leave you with a question.

JULIAN: Subject line: Brokenstar. To the Joker, is he just Normalstar?

[Liz laughing]

[outro music]

#ep 16 #transcript #fire and ice ep #wife guy derogatory

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