#Caerleon

[thesilicontribesman]

Roman Military Helmet, National Roman Legion Museum, Caerleon, Wales

[the-best-bibliophile]

GOING TO CAERLEON TODAY

BEING SO COOL AND NORMAL

[mygirlapril2]

caerleon

Took ape to caerleon to meet wig and his kids. Ape was actually a good girl for a change and didn't kick off about anything.

We hand lunch and she ate all the hand sandwiches (with a tonne of haribo) she shared her sweets well which was encouraging.

We helped a bee that seemed wounded and she worked well to pick it up with paper.

We played hideous and seek in the ancient roman ruins,.picked crab apples and finished off with an ice cream. Really good girl in the car.

[archspaceandguides]

Queen Anne Style Architecture - Reviving Elegance and 10 Unique Examples

Queen Anne Revival is a specific style within the broader Victorian architectural landscape. The Victorian era, characterized by its long reign and diverse architectural trends, witnessed a revival of various historical styles, and the Queen Anne Revival was one of the prominent expressions of this revivalist spirit. Victorian Architecture (1837-1901) is not limited to any particular style but…

[geofflewriter]

Travels With Dave: Wet Wales

In 1975, home after my first year at Uni, my friend Dave and I set out on a tour round England and Wales to visit some of the old and new friends we had made, him driving and me at the map and tape machine. Last time we were in Bristol. This time we’ve crossed into Wales to stay with a family. The question that concerns me is why? Caerleon: Wet Wales I have been to Wales in the dry but as Dave,…

[pad-wubbo]

"Caerluna"

Infinite Painter.

The Roman Amphitheatre of Caerleon, but I turned the photo monochrome, inserted an Earthrise and also an Apollo lander module. Welsh Romans on the moon.

I publish my photo edit with a Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International licence.

[koeiasequoia]

Okay so! Said we'd make a post about this so here it is! All about the rest of Gawain's family!

The Caerleon family consists of

Arcturus (Arty) [he/him], the father, pure arcanine, standing at an imposing 8 and a half feet tall. Well muscled, still a bit of gut, he's been a professional battler since he was young, at first solo, and then tag team once he met his wife. Generally a happy man and an easy laugher, he's always excited to fight, or at least to be doing anything active. Pure Fire type.

Guinevere (Gwen) [she/her] - mom! She's a Meowscarada, specifically using Karina's design, aside from the altered design, she's a relatively normal Meowscarada. Was an entertainer before she met Arcturus, at which point she joined him as tag team battlers. Cool, collected, witty, with a mischievous undertone. Grass/Dark type.

Accolon (Accy) [he/him] 33yrs - The oldest brother, he's a shiny arcanine, and also the only electric type in the family, no one knows how or why! An avid runner he's up bright and early at 6 fucking am to eat breakfast before he goes on a morning jog. Track and field in high school, general cheerful and competitive, and flaming pansexual. The only one to have a kid, aside from the parents obviously lol. Pure Electric type.

Mordred (Mori) [he/him] 13yrs - Accolon's son, half Growlithe, half Rockruff. A bundle of energy who, despite being from two types weak to water, absolutely LOVES the water and swimming and everything, good thing his dad can swim too. Fire/Rock type

Lucan (Lulu) [he/him] 31yrs - brother number 2 (fun fact, actually the first brother we made for G). He's a Hisuian growlithe taur. Exceptionally large, good foot or so taller than their dad, and very much fat, also the physically strongest of all of them, but unendingly lazy, here for a good time he likes to rest, relax, and eat. Will absolutely throw a mountain at you if fuck with his family though. Also aromantic as hell. Fire/Rock type.

Gawain (G) [they/them] 26yrs - third kid, and our fursona lmao. Works at a special library, does fire and plant magic, has a prosthetic arm. And WILL kill you if you don't return your books on time. Overall a happy canine... at this point anyways lmao. Pure Fire type, occasionally acquires Grass type too.

Safir (Saf) [he/they] 23yrs - twink-ass femboy-ass bitch, thigh highs and skirts and crop tops and cropped jackets galore. Very into fashion and being cute (and being a bratty bottom lmao). 100% will talk about you behind your back, kind of a bitch (Also with a design based on this that a friend sent us). Fairy/Ground type.

Morgan (Lil M) [it/its] 21yrs - the youngest of the family, and also the smallest, only standing at about 3 or so feet tall, this little arcanine inherited its mom's green colors and hypno abilities. Snarky, sarcastic, and mischievous, it's also rather possessive of it's oldest brother Accolon (it was also one of our partners fursonas for a while lol). Pure Grass type.

[luxaofhesperides]

need to put doomed yuri in my superhero wip

[becausegoodheroesdeservekidneys]

You guuuuuys, you are going to be. So. Jealous. Of what I did today

So Amgueddfa Cymru is the umbrella super museum in Wales, and it is in charge of multiple museums around the country. Seven branches specifically. Entry to each is free, and each commemorates a different facet of Welsh history and culture; of the seven, I had (until a few hours ago) been to five. I've done Caerleon Roman Museum and Amphitheatre, Cardiff Museum, St Ffagan Folk Museum of Welsh Life, Big Pit Coal Mining Museum, and Swansea Waterfront Museum. I have yet to do the Slate Museum in Eryri.

And today, I went to:

The National Wool Museum

YEAH THAT'S RIGHT we have a national wool museum. It's so cool. We arrived at lunchtime so we started in the cafe and we had soup and also cheese and leek Welsh cakes. Except the soup was so Welsh it was correctly served with a piece of cheese:

AS IT SHOULD

Anyway, the building was a wool mill once upon a time, and half of the machinery still works, and still produces 100% woollen textiles. Also they run workshops for knitting and weaving and stuff. But you follow the rooms around and they show you the full process, from fleece to flannel.

BUT ALSO at each stop they had little stands where you could try a bit for yourselves. So for example, there was an exhibit where you could card fleece by hand, with a pile of washed fleece beside, and you could just... go ham with the carding.

I deliberately tried not to photograph literally everything. But here's a lil collection:

I should have taken a picture of the carding, actually, that was my favourite.

OH MY GOD YEAH and also, they had a section on the uses of the wool. A whole display of traditional Welsh blankets, trad and modern clothes, and, of course, instructions for how to cwtch a baby in a shawl, which was so lovely because that's what my Welsh paternal grandmother taught my English mother to do with me as a baby.

Anyway, then the gift shop sold balls of 100% wool in many fun colours, and tabletop looms, and books on how to knit/weave, and bags of roving that you could spin yourself, and plushie sheep and dragons. And Welsh blankets and shawls/scarves and that.

Anyway, you lot are textile nerds. You should all go. It's in the tiniest village in Ceredigion and it is the BEST.

[thesilicontribesman]

Recreated Roman Military Costume Detailing, National Roman Legion Museum, Caerleon, Wales

[random-racehorses]

Random Real Thoroughbred: SUZU CAERLEON

SUZU CAERLEON is a dark bay/brown horse born in The United States in 1995. By CAERLEON out of IBTIKAR. Link to their pedigreequery page: https://www.pedigreequery.com/suzu+caerleon

[bibliophilicstranger]

Someone should write a fic where Gwaine and Lancelot meet on the road before Lancelot ever goes to Camelot. They're in a tavern, sheltering from the rain, and over pints of ale Lancelot would tell Gwaine how much he wants to be a knight, how he's on his way to Camelot because he wants to help people, to protect them. And all the while Gwaine is sitting there thinking, "you poor sucker, you've got no clue about the First Rule." But Lancelot's genuine desire to help people gets to him and so Gwaine sits there getting drunker and drunker, wishing that knights were as good as Lancelot idealistically thinks. And he gets this absolutely crazy idea.

When Lancelot wakes the next morning, a still half-drunk Gwaine is sitting across from him. And he tells him, dumping a piece of paper and a signet ring on the table, "You can't be a knight in Camelot. You're not a noble. But I could be. So Congratulations, you're now Gwaine, Son of Lot of Caerleon. Take this to Camelot and they should welcome you as a knight."

Lancelot protests. Strenuously. But Gwaine knows the rules. As a peasant, Lancelot could never be a knight in Uther's kingdom, no matter how good his fighting or how noble his character. And Lancelot wants his dream so much that he agrees. From now on Gwaine will be Lancelot and Lancelot will be Gwaine.

And so Lancelot heads off to Camelot. He and Merlin meet as they do in canon, but Lancelot fumbles the introduction, unused to his new name, then ends up confessing all to Merlin. Merlin is more than willing to help with shenanigans and helps Lancelot practice his introduction so he doesn't screw up again, then introduces him to Arthur. Lancelot gets knighted and doesn't get outed as a fake, since the paperwork is valid (even if it's not his paperwork). He and Lancelot defeat the Griffin, with Lancelot discovering Merlin's magic, but Lancelot gets feted rather than exiled.

This gives Merlin an ally, which has various effects, lets Lancelot and Gwen court, and means that when Merlin meets "Lancelot" in the tavern brawl, he knows who he is.

I think it'd be a interesting change to see the spiraling consequences of.

[queer-ragnelle]

Could you please tell us a bit about sir dagonet? Like his past, lover, and role in the round table? I’d love to hear more about him!!

Hi! I'd love to tell you about Sir Dagonet!

TL;DR: Dagonet's characterization varies wildly. He originated from the Vulgate where he began as a cowardly and foolish knight who teases Gawain openly at court without repercussion, eventually shown on adventure when he inadvertently rescues Lancelot by taking him prisoner whilst he sleeps in the saddle. In later Medieval literature, he was imagined as a true jester, an entertainer turned knight. Sometimes he's silly and fun-loving, while craven, and other times he's very serious and proves himself a formidable fighter. This extreme variance in character has continued into the modern age both for screen appearances as well as modern literature.

As always, I will adopt the regional spelling of the characters' names as they appear in each piece of media.

Let's start at the beginning. His first appearance comes from The Story of Merlin where Danguenes the Craven of Caerleon is present for one scene.

Some time later in Lancelot I, Daguenet the Fool manages to apprehend Lancelot whilst he's disassociating and bring him as a prisoner to Queen Guenevere.

Now here's where things get weird. The character takes on several new roles in subsequent Medieval French literature, none of which have ever been translated to English (in full). I do however have them in French and will attach the summaries/scenes here anyway to source what I tell you. Some are in Old French, which are much harder for me to parse, but I'll do my best. Take it with a grain of salt.

In Les Prophesies de Merlin, King Arthur leaves Daguenet le Fou in charge at court. After Dasguenet kills the treasurer, he and Sagramor drain the kingdom's treasury. However when Arthur returns, he forgives Daguenet as the money was spent in the name of defending Christianity. Daguenet is also mentioned in one of Merlin's prophecies and later proves himself an asset in battle.

Here there are a few different versions of the Prose Tristan to contend with. In the version I have, Daguenet/Daguenés li fox cevaliers de la maison le roi Artu gets his own chapters and is officiated as Artu's court Fool. He happens upon Tristran, currently in a fit of madness, who overwhelms Daguenet and his squires. Tristran steals Daguenet's sword, dismembers one of the squires, and repeatedly dunks Daguenet in a fountain. When at last Daguenet is able to escape, he flees to Tintagel.

Following that, Roman de Palamède retold story elements from the Prose Tristan and Daguenet le Fou de roi Arthur. He retains his foolish nature from prior texts and is here paired against Brunor la Suit in a joust to humiliate Brunor. The episode with Tristan at the fountain is recounted here as well. Several other knights make mention of Daguenet's character including Gifflet son of Do who says they can use Daguenet's fearless aggression against anyone if they play their cards right. It's also stated that when Arthur's court is otherwise deserted, the fool Daguenet remains.

In volume VII of Guion le Courteois, Daguenet le Fol, he's lost his mind after the loss of his beloved.

After this comes the big break for Sir Dagonet, King Arthur's Fool, in Le Morte d'Arthur by Sir Thomas Malory. Here the events of prior stories are loosely adapted. This includes Kay inciting the joust with Brunor La Cote Mal Taille, Tristram dunking Dagonet and his squires in the well (followed by Dagonet beating the shepherds who laughed at them for it, then Tristram beheading one of the squires in turn), as well as Dagonet's encounter with King Mark briefly touched on in some of the French texts. Here Dagonet is included in a group of knights; Grifflet, Mordred, and Dinadan, later joined by Uwain and Brandisles. They're intent on pranking Mark. As Mark doesn't recognize Mordred's armor, but Mordred is still nursing an injury, the group ultimately dresses Dagonet in Mordred's armor and shield and passes him off as Lancelot. Mark flees in fear for his life to everyone else's enjoyment. It's also indicated the knights take great care to protect Dagonet as he is beloved by King Arthur and was knighted by him.

Then we reach the modern era! The most famous appearance of Sir Dagonet, alternatively referred to as little Dagonet and Sir Fool, would be from Idylls of the King by Alfred Lord Tennyson. He's very special here as the only one who can foresee the doom of Camelot before it happens, and remains as Arthur's last and most loyal follower by the end.

After that, Dagonet continues to pop up in a number of retellings with a vast range of roles. (I won't be including abridged/adapted tales of Le Morte d'Arthur, only original stories.) These include:

The Fortunate Island by Max Adeler: Sir Dagonet is mentioned as a knight in love with Ysolt. It's said he has "great riches" and is "very powerful" Ysolt's father won't let him marry her, however, because he's "a bad and dangerous man."

Post-Laureate Idyls & Other Poems by Oscar Fay Adams: "Little" Sir Dagonet is depicted as Percivale's "brother fool." He makes mockery of those who struggle on the quest for the Holy Grail.

King Arthur by J. Comyns Carr: Sir Dagonet appears to be Guinevere's fool. After an encounter with a lady, he returns to Guinevere in order to avoid the lady, where he describes himself as "Troubled with a most constant heart that goes not without love!"

The Story of the Champions of the Round Table by Howard Pyle: Sir Dagonet is adapted in the story of Tristram where he is attacked. He's described as having a cockerel shield.

The Song of Dagonet/Two Fools by Ernest Rhys: Two very short lays which depict Dagonet as a less than stellar fighter.

Guenevere; A Play in Five Acts by Stark Young: A rare version of Dagonet as Guenevere's page rather than one of the oldest knights. He looks up to and admires Launcelot, hoping to be a knight like him someday so he too can defend Guenevere. He sings several songs throughout the play.

A Lady of King Arthur’s Court by Sara Hawk Sterling: Dagonet once again the court fool, evidentially loyal to both Guenever and her secrets as well as his "Uncle Arthur," and proves bold enough to tease even "Uncle Merlin." He accompanies the main characters on their journey until the fall of Camelot.

The Birth of Galahad by Richard Hovey: A play in which Guenevere is the mother of Galahad but will give birth while the men are away at war and pass the baby off as that of her friend Elaine and her late husband. Dagonet and Brisen are their respective confidants and banter about the logistics behind keeping the secret.

A Forgotten Idyll by W. B. Scofield: Old man Dagonet reminds everyone what chivalry looks like.

Merlin by Edwin Arlington Robinson: Dagonet is a wise and tragic figure, both loyal to and afraid of Arthur. He can see the end before it's coming and is unable to prevent it.

Launcelot & Guenevere by Richard Hovey: An interesting and macabre Dagonet who is both Guenevere's fool and confidant regarding her affair with Launcelot. Dagonet is for Guenevere what Bors is for Launcelot. Dagonet alone is able to call attention to Guenvere's unhappiness without punishment.

Queen of The Summer Stars/Guinevere: The Legend in Autumn by Persia Woolley: Books 2 and 3 of a trilogy I don't really recommend. But Dagonet is a real renaissance man here; acrobat, dancer, story teller, singer, pipe-player, and even acts as herald to announce incoming guests. At one point he plans a parade.

Arthur, King of Time and Space by Paul Gadzikowski: A webcomic in which Dagonet appears in a few panels as a jester in motley.

Sleepless Knights by Mark H. Williams: Sir Dagonet with a beard so long he tucks it in his belt.

The Bright Sword by Les Grossman: A post-Camlann story that follows an OC but also delves into the points of view of the remaining knights, including Sir Dagonet. He's an old carny-turned-knight who can juggle knives and prefers to climb trees than joust. He's a melancholic figure battling mental illness. He embarks on the Grail Quest with Constantine and uses slight of hand to rob an angel of their magical blade.

The Camelot Project: A collection of more smaller resources focusing on Sir Dagonet.

Dagonet appears in a handful of films and TV shows, in my opinion the most notable include:

Sword of Lancelot (1963): A British film written, directed, and starring Cornel Wilde. Here Dagonet is a true jester, dressed in motley and rhyming for the king's entertainment. He's a respected member of the Round Table and present during all council meetings to advise Arthur.

King Arthur (2004): An American film written by David Franzoni and directed by Antoine Fuqua. Dagonet is one of Arthur's Sarmatian knights working for the Roman empire. He's stoic and serious, ignoring any playful taunts from his bestie Bors. He adopts an orphaned Pict named Lucan.

Kaamelott (2005-2009): A French TV show created by and starring Alexandre Astier. Sir Dagonet is a knight of the Round Table first introduced when he returns from a trip to Judea and brings silly gifts back for his fellow knights and friends. The entire show is comedic so Dagonet doesn't stand out that much.

And that's everything! I love this character and think he should be utilized even more. :^)

[bisclavret]

incomplete list of things about gwaine that drive me crazy in no particular order:

he was the son of a knight but earned his knighthood by different means, so his origins are never mentioned again. except when merlin (in old bitch mode) threatens to ~out~ him with "i know what you are". assuming what he means is that gwaine is a [secret noble] and not a [homophobic slur]

does this mean his heritage is something gwaine does not want to broadcast? why? he's a noble now anyway. is it because the other new knights aren't of noble birth and he doesn't want to stand out? is he that insecure?

hold on i just got a note about this from the writers room. it says "who gives a shit" ???? what do they mean by this?

king caerleon and queen annis become important characters down the line and gwaine somehow does not get involved with their plot at all. he's from caerleon so that's literally the king that tore apart his family and left them to die. s3 gwaine seemed pretty severely traumatized by all this but i guess he got over it

it's like they put him in a suit of armor and he immediately got brain damage. what do you mean "how do we know which way is north"??? gwaine. gwaine how many fingers am i holding up

"why am i always the butt [of the joke]?" he asks his fellow knights. they clown on him even harder.

but tbh it's a fair question — why is he always the butt of the joke? it's always either him or merlin. y'know, merlin the walking talking gay metaphor... and sir gawain from the famous bisexual christmas story (that never happened). why are the two of them always the butt of the joke? i wonder if—no.... it cannot be.....

"got bored of playing soldiers" gwaine tells his closest friend before helping him rescue a "traitor". but we don't have time to unpack all that. in fact, forget he said anything. forget it just like he's about to forget seeing merlin do magic right in front of his face in a few minutes.

sir gwaine loves playing soldiers! he loves saying things like "enough! you speak to the king!" because evoking royal status to force people into submission is gwaine's favorite thing to do. as we all know.

a sorcerer looks him right in the eye and tells him "i am not evil. i am just someone who values his freedom" the "...are you?", like anything that could be remotely interesting in this show, is left unspoken. and is he??? idk guys

the diamair - that alien-looking creature that contains all the wisdom in the world - healed gwaine from the brink of death and seemed to single him out as important. but important how? he unceremoniously dies later that season having achieved zero notable quests as a knight; in fact he probably had more epic adventures as a rogue traveler!

or was the most important moment in gwaine's life — his purpose — to chaperone merlin to a cave without even knowing why?

i mean why not i suppose. kilgharrah was plotting his merthur doomed yaoi the entire time so it's plausible the diamair was on the merwaine doomed yaoi train.

speaking of doomed yaoi. (you knew we'd get there)

pov: you're a charming rogue adventurer with no friends. one day you meet a cute weirdo who begs you to get knighted and stay in town so you can keep bonding over your daddy issues or whatever it is guys do. you keep refusing but after the third time he asks you're like sure why not i've lowkey always wanted to try this. and then as soon as you're knighted he promptly loses all interest in you unless he needs something.

so what do you do?

a) keep challenging him the way you used to because it always works on him and he always comes out of his shell and it's always a rewarding experience for both of you

b) have a bittersweet arc where you grapple with the fact that knighthood and life at camelot aren't what you hoped they'd be after all — in part due to your people-pleasing tendencies

c) let the cute weirdo keep calling the shots even when he closes off even more and seems increasingly miserable and antisocial

d) passive-aggressively hint that you would do more for him than for any girl but never tell him how you feel or what you know and never directly ask him to trust you because misery and apathy are infectious and brother you've caught the bug

e) march off to face the local evil witch basically unarmed (you gave away your own sword in lieu of a love confession) and let her put you out of your misery once and for all <3

[sneakyboymerlin]

Just saw a post claiming that if Gwaine truly prioritized Merlin, he would have “found a way to only stick around Merlin.” Sorry but what kind of abusive relationships are you seeing where your partner isn’t allowed to interact with anyone besides you in order to prove their devotion 💀💀 Your friends aren’t allowed to have other friends?

We know Gwaine prioritizes Merlin because he says soooooooo. His behavior says so. Merlin begged Gwaine to become a knight so that he could stay in Camelot, and Gwaine finally did so under Arthur (*he wasn’t willing to forsake his morality by serving Uther, or he would’ve earlier).

The introduction of the possibility of Gwaine becoming a knight is ultimately about how Merlin wants Gwaine to stay in Camelot with him, and how he worries for Gwaine when he’s on the road. When he asks Gwaine to join the knights, he uses Arthur as a reason to get Gwaine to stay ("You fought well together…"), but it's clear that this isn't the reason that Merlin wants him to stay. He wanted Gwaine to stay before the melee. He wanted Gwaine to stay when he hated Arthur. Gwaine becoming a knight is likewise about more than Arthur. Gwaine offers his protection to Merlin first and foremost, “Not Arthur.” Gwaine wants to stay, with Merlin, before the idea of becoming a knight is ever put on the table.

*If Arthur were to, say, have Merlin executed or banished for his magic, after years and years of loyalty, Gwaine would see Arthur as another Uther or Caerleon and leave. It’s really as simple as that. Gwaine himself was banished by Uther—for protecting Merlin, no less. Gwaine’s father died in battle for a thankless king, which is what Arthur would prove to be in that scenario. He’s not staying a knight.

The point is, just because Gwaine has other acquaintances doesn’t mean that he cares for Merlin any less. He can be around other people. It’s okay.

[dcdreamblog]

Oh, man. I just realized rereading your posts. We've got one Knight of the Round Table, and one reincarnation of a Knight of the Round Table hanging around these days. To think before they showed up people were leaning towards Camelot being a myth. Have the Shining Knight or Hawkman ever stated if they believe the legend of Arthur, where he'd return in the time of Britain's greatest need?

I should note one thing, if only for my own academic pedantry. Only Sir Justin (AKA the Shining Knight) was an actual Knight of the Round table. Brian Kent AKA the Silent Knight wasn't most likely because no one was able to confirm his identity. Which is the sort of thing you'd want to know if you were going to invite someone to hang around the king everyday. Besides the fact, Kent was too attached to the lands in and around his family's fiefdom to spend time in Camelot which was at least a day's ride away.

Now, onto your question.

(Oil Painting of Arthur Pendragon, AKA King Arthur. Discovered in the ruins of Camelot with the help of the Shining Knight's descriptions)

For those not versed in English mythology/history. Arthur Pendragon was the king of Camelot, a post Roman kingdom that controlled most of Britain in around the 6th century AD. Camelot itself was located near modern day Caerleon in southern Wales.

Near the end of Arthur's life a series of events that would take far too long to get into resulted in Camelot's fall where Arthur himself was greatly wounded. Taken by the fae folk of Avalon to be healed where he would eventually return in Britain's hour of greatest need.

Both heroes have taken wildly different stances on this. In that one of them has a stance on it at all.

Shining Knight has given plenty of talks in the modern day about his time in Camelot. It's been his main preoccupation since the return of the Seven Soldiers to the modern day. As you can imagine every British scholar worth their salt wants to pick his brain. So he's been asked this question more than once.

His philosophy on it seems to be that while he takes some comfort in the idea, he is more readily comforted by the home grown heroic tradition of the modern day UK, saying that more focus and praise should be directed toward the likes of Godiva, The Hood, Knight and Square and the like rather than pining backwards towards an old fashioned monarch who was, in Sir Justin's own words "A good man but not without his feet of clay and whose past conceptions would grate against the present even stronger than my own."

Sir Justin has made it very clear that he is uncomfortable with the way Arthurian iconography is leveraged by conservative or fascist elements in modern British society and has bid the British people to look forward into a better future rather than seeking to snatch an imperfect past.

Carter Hall AKA Hawkman I is, as always, tight lipped about his past lives calling his memories "A private matter." Saying his is "Uninterested in becoming a living archeological exhibit." And directing all such questions toward Sir Justin anyway calling him "More loyal to those ideals now than I was at the time and certainly have been after 3 dozen lifetimes since."