#Butchphobia

[princessefemmelesbian]

Not to be rude but a lot of white lesbians on here will see an attractive white(and especially if they're skinny, conventionally attractive, cis, and feminine) woman and go "omg she's so pretty and gorgeous and elegant, gosh, why are women so beautiful! I want her to hold me and hug me and kiss me!" but the second you see an attractive non-white woman(especially if they are fat, trans, dark-skinned, or butch, but lbr y'all do this to femmes of color as well due to how masculinized we are), suddenly y'all's brains short-circuit and you don't know how to complement us without depriving us of our humanity because you still internalized the idea that woc are wild impure animals and so out comes the "omg I want her to step on me and choke me and slap me across the face and make me her slave!!!" and y'all think it's okay because you're making yourself "subservient" to us but really all you're doing is reinforcing harmful stereotypes of woc as more aggressive, sexual, violent, inhumane, and less feminine, sweet, loving, and/or gentle than white women, and you guys think it's a compliment but it's really fucking not and I'm here to tell you that being a lesbian doesn't invalidate your white privilege if you talk about and fetishize lesbian woc this way. 😡

[trans-androgyne]

Genuinely getting the feeling that people think it’s less hurtful to be called a dyke than to be called a faggot. And that it’s less violent to misgender a trans man/masc than to misgender a trans woman/fem. Feels like shit, I’m tired of butch and transmasc struggles being downplayed.

[jellyfemmedyke]

People tend to ignore how misogyny affects trans men and masc in many ways, but one of them is the idea of " masculinity being better than femininity" specifically.

I'm just going to point out that this is white cishet ablebodied gender conforming masculinity that I'm talking about, no other masculinity is seen in the same light.

So the same Idea that says this masculinity is the best, also says that trans men, and butches are "not allowed" this masculinity, that we're not good enough and too weak, that any other masculinity is not "real" like cis men are real, and that if we want this masculinity for ourselves, that we're dangerous and trying to take something from these cis men, trying to spread our disgusting faux masculinity to little girls

And this goes into anti transmasculinity, and butchphobia that it's not real, it's just a placeholder for cis manhood, that once trans men "pass" they're basically cis men anyway and are guilty of all the wrongs that cis men have ever done, so their internalized misogyny is worse in some way, their grief is not important. wish people would look at it through that lens too, because it's so obvious if you just think for a secy.

[makiquas]

Its Butchtober. Bear with me for a second as I rant about children's cartoon ships, butchphobia, the conditional acceptance of butches in sapphic spaces on the basis of desirability, and feeling erased as a butch kid.

It's so funny that I realised early on as a 2000-2010s teen/kid how a lot of so called "sapphics" of social media are really, really anti butch4butch, only by interacting with certain subsets of Catradora and Appledash haters. It may be flippant to connect butchphobia with children's cartoons, but you cannot deny it is there. We finally had two canon butch4butch and masc4masc lesbian animated ships. And the fandoms decided that the best possible reaction to this is to violently hate on the ships for bullshit reasons and write up masterdocs about how the butch character actually looks better with a femme character instead (in both cases–Rarity and Glimmer, who is arguably feminine but not femme, but that's a conversation for another day, how the SPOP fandom waters down gender identities for aesthetics).

This is not just about two cartoon ships; this mindset of seeing two masc lesbians and immediately going "actually they act like bros; but this BUTCHFEMME couple has real chemistry" comes off sounding really, really bad in 2024 when you have no idea how butch identity operates, outside of depicting us as pants-wearing sexually aggressive muscular women. Butches ARE bros, even the ones who kiss each other. Camaraderie and tomboyish swagger *is* a part of their life. It's not our fault you are too fanfic trope-pilled to read these interactions are sexless friendship bantering.

It's also quite concerning, given how there are only a handful of butch4butch books in the market, and almost all of them talk about the stigmatizing of relationships between two butches/studs/masc lesbians. There are many butch lesbians who themselves face internalized butchphobia because of societal standards and expectations of being turned into the "gallant" provider of femmes. Butch and femme are not always inherently complementary, butches can be attracted to other butches, there is no "natural order" model of lesbian/sapphic attraction and your thinly veiled butchphobia is really off-putting, given you guys don't seem to extend that same rhetoric to mascfemme ships like Korrasami or Caitvi, or femme-femme ships like Harlivy.

Here, I must mention relationships like Rei and Kaoru from Oniisama E, or Jess and Lupe from A League of Their Own, who have bucket loads of chemistry but still have some vehement antis only because both the lesbians are masculine. (What's funny is the new wave of lesbian Oniisama E fans are almost all Rei/Kaoru shippers despite the show putting them into two butchfemme pairings.) Something something to be butch4butch is to be failing the tests of palatability and desirability according to conventional models of societal norms. Forever.

Again, one may have valid reasons for disliking these fictional ships (what, I genuinely don't know). But it *is* weird that you guys can watch fifty white fem4fem sapphic shows in a year and read 100+ GL with the same feminine girlish blonde and brunette/pink haired archetype and not bat an eyelid, but conjure a world of made-up "platonic" dynamics just because you read every butch4butch interaction as fundamentally platonic.

A lot of you love to throw around Stone Butch Blues as a catchphrase to educate strangers on the internet about 1950s-70s blue-collar bar culture and USA butch femme history, but how many of you actually know that within the book itself, the lead character acts prejudiced and hates on another butch for being butch4butch? How many of you know that she apologizes to her friend at the end for her hateful remarks? Fun fact: when you ostracize a butch for not fitting into your butch-femme subculture aesthetic, you're no better than lesbiphobic bigots actually.

Anyway, here are some butch4butch resources if you are a baby butch4butch and feel alienated by these kinds of weird rhetoric in online and fandom queer spaces too:

Butch4Butch romance books

My Butch4Butch books masterdoc (**being updated regularly**)

Leo Wilder's Butch4Butch writing (18+)

Butch4Butch photography archive (insta)

Boyish² Butch4Butch yuri anthology (insta)

@milsae Butch4Butch artist (tumblr/insta)

This post is made by a trans masc butch of color. Terfs, racists, biphobes and radfems kindly do not derail or interact.

[transfaguette]

you posted this a bit ago but wrt "the silent protector" trope - im detrans (ftm to butch) and it was really shocking how people are more open about the isolation of being seen as a "protector" in butch communities? ive seen ppl equate it to feeling like "the pitbull" - you are only useful (and safe) when you are leashed/monitored (by a femme) and in return you are expected to defend other queers (and your femme/femmes at large). there's a lot of interesting butch community discussions about how we reinforce masculinity in ourselves in a way that is not always healthy, smth that has meant a lot to me as a significantly disabled butch. its smth i think the butch and transm communities could really bond and benefit from inter-community discussion over! i also feel like its more accepted to talk about and problem solve within butch spaces? i see Way less butches justify "my gf was angry bc i expected us to go 50/50 on our second date and she expected me to pay for the whole meal" using longer standing theories/philosophies than i do in transm spaces (not to say transm people as a whole find that stuff acceptable!)

yeah! its an even tougher nut to crack amongst cis men, cishet men especially, i would say hardly even a dent societally speaking, so it makes sense this expectation is so ingrained for trans men&mascs. ty for your insight and I wholly agree this should be a point of solidarity between these communities <3

[lunaathorne]

browsing through one last stop edits and am ever so certain that some of you simply choose to refuse to acknowledge the fact that jane is a chinese butch lesbian and not a skinny pale femme with a shaggy wolfcut........ please try harder to source better pictures of butch lesbians, it's so tiring to see this erasure. jane does NOT look like this!

Like???? this is not jane lmaoooo. she is a queer punk leather dyke!!! not an ulzzang korean girl!!!some of you cannot imagine butch lesbians as "aesthetic" and it fucking shows.

THIS IS HOW JANE LOOKS BTW

STOP ERASING BUTCH BODIES FOR AESTHETICS. BUTCH = BEAUTIFUL.

[redrockbutch]

Cishet Girlpower Feminist incapable of the self reflection required to admit having deliberately socially ostracized the GNC little girls they went to school with until all the girls in the entire class thought they were too gross and icky to even be around: ever since I was a little girl I have known that GNC women are treated better by men, because men hate femininity. My proof? Well, they were always hanging out with the boys, weren't they?

[ugly-anarchist]

Anti-masculinity as I describe it isn't supposed to be this systemic model of oppression that labels x group over here as the oppressor of y group. It's about the beliefs that people hold and the way they influence certain groups of queer people. It's more about lateral mistreatment within the queer community then it is systemic oppression or privilege. It's a unifying label of experiences. And yes... Anti-femininity exists too. Of course it does. Why the fuck are people claiming it doesn't?

Anti-masculinity is the belief that men, masculinity, or having traits that people perceive as masculine makes someone inherently predatory, abusive, or perverted. Anti-masculinity can also come in the form of forcing people into specific masculine gender roles.

Examples of anti-masculinity are: Trans men being told they're transitioning to the "problematic" gender. Trans women who don't pass being labeled as predatory and scary. Intersex people with hyperandrogenism being told their high T levels make them a threat to fem people. Butch sapphics, especially those who take T, being called traitors to their gender and forced out of sapphic spaces. Amab or masc nonbinary people who aren't accepted into "women and nonbinary" spaces because they are seen as too masculine. Bi women who like men being ostracized from sapphic spaces because "no one wants to kiss a mouth that has had a dick in it".

These people, with a variety of different labels and experiences, have a unifying experience of being targeted for traits that are seen as masculine and therefore bad. Masculinity is often seen as the enemy of queerness and this impacts the way queer people are treated within the community. Again, this isn't about systemic oppression. It's about the unfair treatment that some queer people experience because masculinity is seen as inherently predatory and men are seen as the enemy.

Yes, you can claim or argue that anti-masculinity is "just X form of oppression" but all of the things I listed stem from a hatred of masculinity. All of this would be solved if we didn't view masculinity as the enemy.

And this isn't something that is perpetuated by a single group or community either. Again, it is lateral and often self-inflicted. Sometimes very literally. A lot of people internalize anti-masculinity and inflict it on themselves. They feel shame for liking men, being men, or looking masculine.

In order to be accepting of all queer people we need to unlearn anti-masculinity and judge others by their actions. Not the gender they identify as, how they present, or what physical traits they have that are out of their control. No one should feel bad or ashamed for who they're attracted to, what they look like, or what their gender is. I kind of thought that was the point of the queer community but apparently some people on tumblr have forgotten that.

[genderqueerdykes]

hi i’m sorry if this is too heavy of a question, but i was told that Testosterone HRT can make you die sooner if you go in it vs. if you don’t? is this true? i’ve tried looking up medical articles but i’m not good with researching this kind of thing and i’m not currently seeing a doctor so i can’t ask them. thanks for the help

hi there!

fortunately for you, and everyone who takes testosterone HRT: that is a trans(andro)phobic, antimasculine, butchphobic, and intersexist myth spread by radfems. there is no scientific or medical basis in anyone who has higher testosterone levels will guaranteed have a shortened lifespan

what is happening when people propose that argument is they are taking what can possibly happen to some people who have high T and/or take testosterone HRT and blow it way out of proportion. some of the POSSIBLE complications testosterone HRT COULD present are:

high/elevated blood pressure in some people

increased red blood cell production, which Can lead to easier clotting if blood is not donated or medications are not taken to thin the blood in some people

reproductive health issues in some people

liver and/or kidney damage in some people who are prone to liver/kidney issues, and/or take more testosterone than prescribed

there can be other complications, but the point stands that these are all potential things that can happen to some people. not every person who takes T gets elevated blood pressure, for example. many people had low blood pressure beforehand and find that they are more stabilized. many people who previously were underweight benefit from a bit of weight gain. most people who take T do not overproduce red blood cells in a dangerous amount, but in folks who do, there are options to mitigate this.

some people cannot take T due to health issues, and that's okay, that person is not detransitioning in order to preserve their health. these people deserve to have their situations taken seriously. but, not everyone faces health troubles due to starting hormones. people can also have adverse affects on health when taking estrogen. there is always a risk of harming one's self when introducing substances into the body in higher amounts than it was previously used to.

most people have some levels of both estrogens and testosterone in them at all times. elevating or lowering anything can cause a shock to the system but a lot of the time, these things are temporary or can be solved with medication. many people just never experience any of this. there's no guarantee that anyone will be harmed by taking testosterone HRT

i hope that helps! i can't believe this has gotten to be so widespread. i appreciate you taking the time to ask. i've been on T for 9 years. had my heart checked last year because i had an extra beat that was unnerving me due to being constantly exposed to cigarette smoke. my heart is healthy, my blood pressure is easily managed by 1 medication, i don't have an issue with blood clots, and my liver and kidneys have been checked twice within the past year and they're good to go as well. people just assume that testosterone is evil ands pread the myth that it'll kill you because of antimasculism, trans(andro)phobia, butchphobia, intersexism, and man hating.

radfems have been trying to do everything in their power to turn people off of T because of how badly they hate men and mascs. if you want to look into starting T, your prescriber will run a lot of tests to make sure you are in good health for it. if not you may be able to use very low dose T. most people do not experience adverse health effects inherently due to T. i hope this helps!

take care! feel free to have any more questions you may have

[subtle-carrot]

You know when you work at a trans human rights organisation and people at the official Discord talk about trans men and mascs with a Tone

And when your transfem workmate talks about nonbinary people having "taken over" a peer support group for all non cis people

And when you are the only nonbinary butch in the office and you aren't quite comfortable talking about not being a trans woman out loud and you constantly feel like an outsider because femininity is stressed so goddamn much

You know that feeling?

[trans-androgyne]

"Stop treating 'butch' as a kind of transmasc" -- I am not inherently doing so by mentioning them in transandrophobia conversations, it's what the bigots are doing that I am responding to. Also, I am literally a transmasculine butch, sometimes butch is a kind of transmasc. But even outside of personal identity and the blurry lines between butchness and transmasculinity, queerphobes have historically not made much of a distinction between us (see the concept of the "female invert"). We're just dykes to them.

Transandrophobia and butchphobia are inextricable. Misogyny and lesbophobia are very much part of both these conversations. Transmascs and butches are both punished for a perceived failure of the female gender role: to be feminine women sexually desirable for and available to men. Both groups have our masculinity treated as ruining ourselves. Butches get accused of wanting to be men plenty. Please don't blame me for just pointing out what queerphobes already think of us.

[jellyfemmedyke]

I've been out as both a trans man and a butch lesbian at different times and I feel like, if I make a post about feminism or talk about how women are treated or anything revolving sexuality or sexualization or honestly really anything, in "leftist" spaces;

people treat me with MORE misogyny if I tell them that I'm a trans man vs telling them that I'm a butch lesbian, being a trans man really does give people permission to treat you with absolute vitriol.

It's the same kind of opinion they hold regardless, but they really just let loose if I say I'm the first one vs saying I'm butch, which causes them to pause more, and be less open about it. I have the same knowledge regardless of my identity, the information and experiences I'm giving you are the same. i'm bigender, so I'm both, but as a trans man it's like I've have to detranstion myself, I have to hide one side of my identity that's just as important as the other, to even be listen to at all. I know this has been said before. I've seen it, but to have it happen to frequently to me is really really weird

[thee-radio-host-is-a-kookaburra]

I originally came up with the phrase “live experiences > your rules” to talk abt transphobia against trans men. I’m now thinking abt how this phrase could 100% apply to many other identities that also get shut down when talking about their discrimination. Here’s some blinkies for y’all ^^

[gay-otlc]

*(or transmisandry, anti-transmasculinity, whatever you prefer to call it)

I know that my followers tend to lean pretty heavily towards one answer so reblogging would be great. I'm not trying to prove a point about the existence of either of these things, I genuinely want to get a variety of perspectives

DO NOT START ARGUING IN THE NOTES. I'm interested in seeing the results but not interested in participating in/seeing debates about this. If you really want to have an argument, have it somewhere other than my notes.

[princessefemmelesbian]

I don’t think/know if enough people talk about this but why is most lesbian/wlw representation in media “light-skinned/white partner is more feminine and dark-skinned/Black/poc partner is more masculine” like why tf is that. Give me more wlw couples where the more feminine partner has darker skin/is the poc in the pairing. 😪 Signed, a Black femme. 

[viciouslyrobotic]

Radical feminism buys into white supremacist cisheteropatriarchy and requires gender essentialism and exorsexist ideals to work. That's why it operates under the "man vs woman" framework we already live under. That's why Rowling and other radfems are called trans exclusionary, why they're so often racist, and why their communities are so often white, and why the attempt to rebrand it as trans inclusive will never work.

It functionally can't be trans or even gnc inclusive without ignoring several intersections of oppression.