#Batman: Urban Legends 20 spoilers

[kassandrasdisciple]

~~~ batman CC spoilers ~~~

Honestly this is the best DC project in years and a return to everything that was good about the og animated series whilst including all the elements of DC cannon that have been created or expanded upon since.

Just a few of my favorite things:

- the SETTING, going back to the 40s noir vibe is a perfect choice, the fights are beautiful and not overcomplicated by gadgets and tech, also allows for some gratuitously beautiful shots that play with shadow.

- batman's age, I don't think Bruce is ever given an age in the show but he seems to be mid 20s early 30s and still an urban legend as the batman, we don't have to waste time with an origin episode/season but we still get to experience a Gotham who doesn't fully trust their vigilante.

- VILLIANS, for me the stand out was harley quinn, divorcing her from the joker allows her character to fully shine, she stays somewhere in the grey but still firmly an antagonist. It's one of the gripes I have with new harley that once she leaves the joker she always becomes more of an anti-hero/hero, keep my girl villainous. Also her psychological background is in full swing, I've always believed Harley is most dangerous when she's in your head and the show leans fully into it. Gaslight, Gatekeep, Girlboss indeed.

- villians pt.2, keeping the theme of the animated series we have our villians for villainy antagonists like penguin and thorn who seem to live on in their counterparts, onomatopoeia and firebug, but we also get nuanced character arcs for 2-face, Natalia and clayface, echoing baby doll and calender woman.

- supporting cast, I'm only familiar with the comics in passing but if attorney Barbra is a new invention then whoever thought of it needs a raise. Also aging her up to be in her early 20s is an incredible change from the animated series where she floated around the freshly 18 mark. It makes her a hero in her own right even if she isn't batgirl (yet), and let's us see Gothams worst and how she's already fighting for change.

- Supporting cast pt.2, Montoya! My beloved, I'm not sure where her romance with harley is going but I can't wait, it's great to see such an archetypal noir cop, even more so than Jim, who speaking of I love as well, his want to protect the city but also butting heads with barbie on methods is perfect characterization in my option.

-baby bruce, horrifying, I love him. Alfred has personal beef with harley now, the second he saw an opportunity to throw that man in therapy she gives him valid paranoia of the entire profession just as he was thinking about trying it properly, I know it's on sight for him going forward.

- art, I've binged the animated series many times at this point and it's a running gag in the fandom that some frames are ... unique. Obviously the animators were working with what they had, but the step up in fight choreography and flow is spectacular, the whole show is a love letter to old batman with a new varnish of the animation productions of today.

Overall an amazing show that had me laugh and gasp in equal amounts, it took itself seriously in a way most superhero media won't do anymore, I distinctly thought in ep.9 when batman swings away from Montoya and Jim "wow they didn't put in a stupid snark about him being dramatic or having a nice ass ect" and it's like a breath of fresh air.

As far as nitpicks go I wished we had more of Bruce in isolation, or having real conversations, but I realize the focus of this season was his loneliness and how the final episode states he's opening up more to the 3 main supporting characters. I'm also worried for how important the joker might become but that's basically instinct at this point (please kill him off, i want to see the reactions).

Going forward I can't wait to see if we get any follow up on the Easter egg characters, killer croc, the 4 Robin's, king tut. I'd love to see the batman as a dad he's got a lot of kindness modern adaptations don't include, but still that overwhelmingly lonely nature. I'm hoping harley and the joker never cross paths in this universe but I won't hold my breath and I'd like to see if we will get a batgirl/oracle storyline as well.

Anyways looking forward to the confirmed second season, and if you read this without watching the show, start now.

[batmanego]

COLE CASH READING LIST

cole's backstory is kind of a nightmare to wade through as he has been subject to so many retcons and reboots and general fuckery, but here is a list of issues i consider to be essential in understanding his character and/or key points in his backstory, with some explanation/extrapolation added.

bolded is essentials, italicized is personal favorites. links included.

wildc.a.t.s: covert action teams: this is the og comic. not too cole-centric, but there are some important bits and pieces. wildcats trilogy and grifter (1995) are included for chronological reasons.

issue 1, issue 5, issue 8, wildcats trilogy 1, wildcats trilogy 2, wildcats trilogy 3, issue 20, grifter (1995) issue 1, issue 25, issue 31, issue 32, issue 50

grifter (1996): cole solo series. has some important things related to his past and his psyche. i really like this series. it should be noted that (SPOILERS!) cole's dad being alive is literally never acknowledged in any other cole media ever, so it's fair to say that that is not canon and jacob is still extremely dead.

issue 1, issue 2, issue 3, issue 4, issue 5. i think the rest of the comic is pretty good too but you don't have to read it.

wildcats (1999): i really, genuinely recommend reading this entire series. it is an excellent examination of the horrors of war and what it means to be a good person. it is also a buddy cop comedy about three guys trying desperately to run a company. it is very, very good, and i couldn't bring myself to narrow it down.

issue 1 is here. start with that and then read the whole comic. please also read the annual, because Holy God.

team 7 (1994): this miniseries is very short, and the whole thing is pretty essential to cole's character.

start here.

team 7: dead reckoning: see above.

start here.

point blank: takes place after/during wildcats 1999. again, a short miniseries essential to cole's character.

start here.

wildcats 3.0: god, i hate wildcats 3.0. there's some relevant cole stuff, though. tw for rape in regards to everything that wax (blue suit spooky eyes guy) has going on in issue 8.

issue 1, issue 2, issue 3, issue 4, issue 5, issue 8, issue 9

wildcats (2006): lots could be said about grant morrison and jim lee's failed one-issue venture into wildcats, but i actually think the single issue they put out is really good when it comes to characterizing cole. it is not canon even a little bit, though.

read it here.

wildcats (2008), more commonly known as wildcats: worlds end: it's... okay. it's an apocalypse narrative. we get some fun tidbits about cole and he does one important thing.

issue 1, issue 18

grifter (2011): kind of a weird take on the classic daemonite thing, but the discussion between cole and his brother is important, so i'm putting it here.

issue 3, issue 8

batman: urban legends: i think his stories in this are cute, if a little apocryphal (saying max is his older brother? for shame!). also, it is an anthology series, so you'll have to skim to find his stories.

issue 1, issue 2, issue 3, issue 4, issue 5

[hood-ex]

"You're not his family. You're not anyone's family, Grayson."

Talia said that to Dick when Bruce was standing right there?? Dick's literal fucking dad?? And Bruce didn't even try to defend Dick??

You know what, no. We're just gonna ignore everything about this story *cough* except for the part where Dick said Damian means the world to him because that's obvious enough. *cough*

[dick-the3rd]

Society has evolved past the point for Morrison's Talia. We don't need her anymore. I want more shit like this.

Bruce and Talia fighting bc both of them have different beliefs and ideologies, but in the end both of them want what is best for Damian. Also, FUCKING FINALLY SOME REAL RECOGNITION OF DAMIAN NOT BEING AMERICAN

Her reaction seeing Damian in bed 🥹

Does it sound artificial? Yes. Do I care? No.

[nighhtwing]

TALIA AL GHUL in BATMAN: URBAN LEGENDS #20

[scandalsavagefanfic]

Hello! I am a huge fan of ur writing. I've loved everything I've read of yours. I've read alot of what you've posted, except for a couple of the tags that are squicky for me (so I'm very thankful you tag very thoroughly). No judgement for the squick, it's just not for me. & when I'm having a bad day, I usually just go thru ur ao3 and find something to reread. I think about Therapy's Bruce & Jason every damn day. While I obvs appreciate ur darker more "problematic" content (I really vibe with some of the themes you write about bc of my own trauma, & so it's very cathartic to read about in a fictional setting), I am truly a sucker for ur more happy content. The Happily Ever After verse also lives in my head rent free. Idk more wholesome stuff just seems more special when you write it. Anyways. I would die for you. But the point of this ask is cause I'm curious as to why you don't like Urban Legends? I'm sorry if you already talked about it here or on twitter and I missed it. I was just wondering because I really enjoy your take on things and would love to hear why you dislike it. I've been enjoying it so far personally, but I am always open to DC comics criticism.

Aw thank you so much! I'm so flattered by everything you just said. You're so sweet ❤❤❤❤❤

I haven't talked about Urban Legends here or twitter (I haven't been very active in either place lately. Just a lot going on and no energy 😔) but I'm happy to do it here.

Before I start though, I just want to add a standard disclaimer and make it clear that if you like it, there's nothing wrong with that and you don't have to let me ruin it for you lol. Like what you like.

That said, since you asked...

I said this when I was talking about it on discord, that there is a difference between hope and expectation. I always hope that a new story centered on Jason (or anyone really, but things have been especially egregious for Jay for 15 years) will be good or at least treat the character with a minimal level of respect (to be honest, the bar is super fucking low). But my expectations always temper my hope, to keep it from getting unrealistic. Because my expectations are based on experience.

The long history of Jason Todd, since even before his resurrection, has been one of retroactively trying to make him "a bad seed" in order to absolve Bruce of any responsibility in his death.

I don't even expect DC or their writers to start honoring the fact that Jason was not an angry, reckless Robin (and less of the later than Dick or Tim and definitely Damian). There plenty of ways that retcon can be folded into his history and be compelling and sympathetic. And if they're going to stick with that retcon, I'm only asking that they do it in one of those compelling and sympathetic ways because Jason was 15 when he died, heroically, in one of the most selfless acts in comics, to save a woman who literally handed him over to be brutally murdered. He was 12 when Bruce plucked him off the streets, he'd been homeless and fending for himself for at least two years. I personally think that Jason's story hits harder for him and Bruce if their original, canon relationship, of Jason as starry-eyed and eager to learn and absolutely devoted to Bruce and Bruce to Jason, is preserved. But Jason's origins does leave room for a meaningful interpretation of him as angry and frustrated at the lack of meaningful results of Bruce's methods.

And that's really where my irritation at stories like Batman: Urban Legends, Cheer and Batman The Adventure Continues has it's roots.

Every time one of these stories comes out, I think (or hope, rather) that this will be the one that remembers and respects the origins of the Jason and the Red Hood, that takes into account the changed sensibilities of comics readers in the 30 years since Jason's death and the subtle, 20 year, retroactive campaign to make him the "bad Robin". The "born bad" trope is played out and literally no one likes the message it implies. That some kids are just bad eggs and there's nothing parents or the adults around them can do. Especially when it's played as the kid's fault. If Jason's time as Robin is going to be characterized by anger, then it should be rooted in anger at the social injustices he witnessed as he grew up in an impoverished, crime-ridden, area and the horrors he faced raising himself when every day was a battle for survival. There are topical, meaningful, stories to tell with that backdrop.

But those are never the stories we get.

⚠⚠ Spoilers for Batman: Urban Legends, Cheer ⚠⚠

I'm particularly disappointed in Urban Legends because for the first issue, it looked like that was the kind of story we were going to get. I was put off by the first flashback of Jason being mesmerized by Bruce's guns, and I got that feeling in my gut that it was a bad sign. Jason depicted as impatient and overconfident and the scene with the guns is heavy-handed foreshadowing that got my spidey-sense tingling. I had a inkling then (in the first three pages) of how this story was going to play out, but it was early and I could still see many narrative paths that could lead to a satisfying story. My concerns were soothed somewhat and the little flame of my hope fanned, with the flashback of Alfred scolding Bruce, with Barbara's concern for Jason. A bit of worry returned with the way Jason ruthlessly pursued an addict who didn't appear to be a dealer and with the ending of the issue. The stuff with the addict sat wrong with me but the ending was tempered some by how despicable Tyler's dad was written. The scene was clearly set so that the reader could sympathize with Jason's decision and the scene with the addict could be brushed aside as a side-effect of comics over-the-top need for constant action, so I still held hope.

Issue 2 made me uncomfortable and it's where my hope starts to take a backseat to my expectations. I can dismiss Jason's self-deprecating internal monologue as unreliable narration, except that the flashback reinforces his thought process to explicitly show that it's not unreliable narration, and should be taken at face value. Jason faces physical abuse at the hands of his mother's drug dealer and when the flashback continues later, Jason kills the drug dealer. To be clear, this is a pre-Bruce Jason. His mom is still alive. He's like... 10. He kills this guy for shoving his head into a wall and implying Jason's mother paid for her drugs with sex. This is a scene that serves a single purpose. To show that Jason has always been prone to violence.

In the spirit of full disclosure, there is the small chance the drug dealer might not be dead. But the story obviously wants the reader to think he is, and it hasn't done anything to change that yet.

Starlin already did this story with The Diplomat’s Son in 1988 and he did it infinitely better. AND that’s still technically canon. So now I’m supposed to believe that Jason lost his cool bad enough to kill two douche bags before his sweet 16? Like it’s totally normal for abused kids raised in poverty, who’ve led hard and heartbreaking lives to just... haul off and kill people? That’s bullshit, and when taken with the Jason in the third issue, who is little more than an idiot thug, this story is really doubling down on some fucked up stereotypes.

Which brings us to the most recent issue. I went into this installment with very low expectations. I thought this story was going to be about Jason, through this experience with Tyler, a young boy with a similar background to Jason's, coming to the realization that Bruce's way is the best way and that Bruce did his best by Jason.

That would be annoying (in no small part because it takes increasingly absurd levels of plot armor to keep Bruce's no kill rule relevant, let alone irrefutably right). But I can probably live with that, if only because maybe if Jason officially falls back into line with the Bats crusade, maybe I'll get stories that treat him with respect, stories that don't relegate him to comic relief, dumb brute, or a background body with no lines in a story about the Joker burning Gotham (like Jason would just fucking stand there quietly for that).

And that may still be where the story is going, Jason realizing Bruce is right.

But holy shit do I not have the right words to describe how fucking insulting and gross issue three is.

From start to finish--including the flashback--Jason is written as cruel and fucking stupid. Like straight up dumb.

The entire issue is Bruce explaining the fucking basics to Jason like it's his first day. And Jason flies off the fucking handle and terrorizes a doctor he knows isn't a part of making the Cheerdrops, beats the shit out of some random addicts, and finally, when he can't accomplish anything on his own because he's a dumb brute he calls Barbara for help and rushes in with no information where he's promptly incapacitated and must now wait to be rescued by Batman.

This panel is the least of the issues sins but I can’t screenshot the entire story but it’s representative of the tone for the whole issue (and retroactively tainted the prior two issues).

This is beyond insulting. The only conclusions Jason comes to in this issue are the ones Bruce leads him to by talking to him like he can’t make the simplest connections. And like... in this story Jason can’t make the simplest connections.

This (and the Jason throughout the entirety of this issue) is a far cry from the Jason we fell in love with in Under the Red Hood, who was competent and strategic and intelligent enough to seize control of Gotham’s underworld from Black Mask (who’s no fucking slouch, he’s the first and only person to unify organized crime in Gotham) AND elude and manipulate Bruce until the time and place of his choosing.

This is a far cry from even the Red Hood and the Outlaws Jason who is competent enough to fight the League of Shadows and Ra’s al Ghul (among very dangerous and skilled others) and smart enough to create antidotes for mind control nanotech viruses.

As he should be, by the way. Jason Todd is one of the best, most comprehensively trained fighters in DC’s stable of non powered vigilantes. He’s not irrational or hot headed. He’s pragmatic, tactically minded, and patient. He’s a detective. Right now. Has been since he was 12. Bruce doesn’t have to make him one because he already is. 

Jason is not a stupid thug who uses his fists because his brain doesn’t work. And I can’t tell you how so very exhausted I am by this narrative. 

This is actually the most egregious example of Jason’s skills and intelligence being not just undermined but dismissed entirely. Even Morrison’s Jason had some degree of competency. 

The one, single redeeming factor of this story is the art. It’s beautiful. And Marcus To is a godsend he seems to be one of only a couple of artists who remember that Jason was a child when he was Robin and I’m literally only buying this book because of him. 

Anyway, I’m sorry. I didn’t want that to come out so... um... passionately lol. I’m just very very tired. My intention with this isn’t to ruin it for you, if you like it, that’s fine. 

But this issue shot this story to the top of my "Vehemently Despise” list. 1) Batman: Urban Legends (Cheer), 2) Battle for the Cowl/Morrison’s Batman and Robin, 3) Batman The Adventure Continues.

I hope the next issues somehow salvage this dumpster fire. But I’m not expecting it.

(Damnit. That sounded harsh again. To reiterate, I’m not trying to judge anyone who enjoys it, I just personally hate it and you asked me why lol 😅)

[bobsayshallo]

I posted 204 times in 2021

22 posts created (11%)

182 posts reblogged (89%)

For every post I created, I reblogged 8.3 posts.

I added 133 tags in 2021

#tim drake - 40 posts

#batman - 27 posts

#timber - 12 posts

#superman - 9 posts

#dc - 9 posts

#robin - 9 posts

#timkon - 8 posts

#superboy - 7 posts

#conner kent - 7 posts

#young justice - 5 posts

Longest Tag: 139 characters

#i legid had nightmares where i woke up and was convinced there were spoilers about the big reveal being about steph and kon getting togethe

My Top Posts in 2021

#5

Impulse #1 confirms Bart Allen only has one [1] braincel

90 notes • Posted 2021-04-18 14:01:19 GMT

#4

When you're holding the bae

97 notes • Posted 2021-10-19 13:31:09 GMT

#3

Tim Drake my beloved on the cover of batman Urban Legends #10

114 notes • Posted 2021-09-20 14:38:07 GMT

#2

Ok but how funny is it, that now that Tim is dating a conspiracy theorist, Jon starts dating a pink haired Antifa Anarchist Hacker. A++ relationship dynamic.

159 notes • Posted 2021-10-11 16:01:17 GMT

#1

TOM TAYLOR SAID I WON’T LET YOU BURY THIS GAY. YOU’RE NOT GETTING RID OF HIM https://www.ign.com/articles/superman-bisexual-lgbt-jon-kent-dc

594 notes • Posted 2021-10-11 16:07:56 GMT

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[geek-gem]

Joker 2019 Sequel Cast And Ideas

This was a draft I’ve been working on for a long while now. I forgot when I started it. Maybe two weeks but I’m not sure. I’ve seen Joker three times. The film has made a billion dollars. Including Joaquin Phoenix seems like he wouldn’t mind being the Joker again. Also Todd Phillips has said he wouldn’t mind a sequel unless the story is right. Which I agree with him.

I just wanna mention I really like Joker 2019. Especially the Arthur Fleck interpretation of the Joker. Including you can see the popularity among Tumblr especially women. XD But yeah to be honest I’m both ways. I don’t mind if it’s just a stand alone. But also I loved this version of the character. It’s the version that got me to appreciate the Joker as character. Which may sound stupid.

Especially despite what Todd Phillips has said....I want this Joker to meet his Batman in his universe. The idea of a continuation to Joker has been on my mind for a long time now. Yet the problem and I have mentioned it before.

A half of it is like, “Yeah this is the kind of a movie that's the perfect continuation to Joker. It’s artsy and has lots of meaning”, but also it feels like, “What the hell is this? What’s with so many characters in this story? Why are there many references? This doesn’t feel like the kind of film Joker 2019 was”.

Including I have wondered it feels like a movie that would deserve a super cut. Something like Batman V Superman with it’s ultimate edition(Which added more scenes that explained things). Or even the It supercut I’ve read about. Which is basically the two It films put together with I think more footage too. Including it being 7 hours.

But the main focus of this story was between the relationship between Bruce Wayne/Batman and Arthur Fleck/Joker. Including it’s about the end of the Joker. But also for Arthur Fleck, giving him a proper send off. So a franchise wouldn’t be built. 

I am planning on making a synopsis of the general story. It’s what I think a sequel should be to Joker. But I would trust with what Todd Phillips and Joaquin Phoenix would want to do with a sequel. This is just my fan fiction of wanting to respect of what had came before. Expanding upon Arthur’s journey as the Joker. Including to give this character a emotional conclusion as he meets the Batman and Bruce Wayne during his final week or more of living. 

So this is all rambling. I’ve been hesitant to post this because again it’s just rambling and notes. But I think I should share this. Be warned there are spoilers. Including if you have been going in deep in the theories about Joker 2019. You may be disappointed by possible choices I’ve made in this. Because doing this kind of sequel may disprove certain theories or confirm certain theories. I’m deeply sorry this is very long.

Joaquin Phoenix as Arthur Fleck/Joker. 

A mentally ill man disregarded by society and became the, “Joker” in 1981. 20 years later, now 50 years old and known mostly as his alter ego. An anarchist with no motive wreaking havoc in Gotham as much as he can with followers behind him. 

But as years gone, things have changed. With more people are slowly stop believing his cause. Including with this, “Batman” helping the police closing in on him. Old emotions have started to flow through Arthur again. Bringing back memories of why he became this way. Even if he does not fear death, he thinks his final days are probably upon. As each day he grows older and the world is moving on without him.

Including just like his final days will like how in 1981 will forever impact him. Once he crosses paths again with Bruce Wayne. Along with who people thought was a urban legend, “Batman”. With Arthur realizing he isn’t the only freak in Gotham who suffered so much.

Notes: The story of this Joker continuation is something. I’ll be honest I want to respect the legacy of these old comics characters. While also putting them in this world Joker 2019 created. But also the direction I’ve been thinking about for Arthur/Joker may bother a lot of Joker fans. 

Mainly considering this story where it’s basically what I call, “Jokers Downfall” because it’s final days or week or so on. While showcasing 20 years the man who was once Arthur Fleck truly changed. Becoming an, “Agent Of Chaos” creating destruction wherever he can.

It’s this time in his life as he meets people old and new that causes him to act differently. In some ways you get the evil Joker that you usually think of. But for this story kind of has a, “Softer” Joker. Because of his meeting with certain people, especially Bruce Wayne and Batman. The man that was once Arthur Fleck is still there. Including as Joker becomes less of how people see him, being honest of who he had killed, and other things.

But including to make sure this doesn’t turn into a long running franchise. Even though I have thought this feels like the third part in a trilogy. This story is a way a definite end for Arthur Fleck. In his own and for the best of everyone a ending that only suits him. 

Yet this doesn’t mean he doesn’t get redeemed at all or you condone his actions. It’s more like a proper ending to a man who had good intentions, but because of how society treated him and the choices he made. It’s an ending where the only, “Happy ending” probably for him is his death. But also the addition of maybe along the line some how, he gains a best friend. Someone who understands him. Showcasing he’s not alone. Especially proving Murray Franklin’s words, “Not everyone is awful”. 

But the tragedy in all of this. This revelation happened 20 years later. Because Arthur has destroyed his chance of returning to who he was. Or even change for the better. The best thing for Arthur/Joker in this situation despite this sounds rather harsh. Is for him to embrace death as the world around him has changed. But also to as he reaches closer to death. He truly that he wasn’t alone, one spot or more empathy from someone in the likes of Bruce Wayne/Batman and whoever else.

Including the other thing. Confirming whether or not Arthur is Bruce’s legitimate older brother. Considering there or theories based upon the flies Arthur had taken. It’s something I need to think about.

Jay Ryan as Bruce Wayne/Batman.

A young man who lost his parents during the riots in 1981. Traumatized by his parents deaths. He vowed to bring vengeance upon criminals. It’s been 20 years since that night, now 28 years old. He’s been mostly keeping a low profile as the, “Batman”. Fighting criminals and stopping the mobs. Gaining the trust of the citizens and even the police. Despite them being suspicious still. While making sure no one figures out it’s Bruce as this vigilante. 

Because of him and the Joker being now out in the open more. He’s set his sights on the man who inspired the man who murdered his parents. Yet what Bruce figures out as he looks more deep into who the Joker is. Including who was Arthur Fleck, and what made him what he was. Bruce discovers that his father, someone he looked up for all his life. Finds out his father wasn’t truly the greatest. Including was one of the reasons for Arthur’s decent into madness.

Along with trying to hold back his anger as much as he can as he learns more information and not wanting to kill. Bruce slowly uncovers what made Arthur how he is now. Which results in not just wanting to bring Arthur to justice, but to even try to save this man who suffered so much.

Describing his batsuit: To fit the aesthetic and tone of this world that Joker 2019 is featured in. Including to compare with next to Arthur Fleck's Joker attire in Joker 2019. With the help of a friend named Lucius Fox. Bruce's batsuit could be similar to the likes of the batsuits from The Dark Knight trilogy.

But mainly in a weird way to fit this more realistic world. The batsuit seems similar to the likes of the outfit worn by Hunk and Vector from the Resident Evil series, and also the likes of SAS soldiers. But without the likes of a gasmask unless if needed for any necessary situation.

Especially like the 1989 batsuit, there is body armor on the chest to protect Bruce from bullets.

This batsuit is basically personally accustomed for Bruce Wayne's needs and his war on crime. It still has the cape, the bat ears, and the spikes on his gloves.

The concept of Batman in the world of Joker 2019: This is something that's been on my mind. Because reading the process behind Joaquin Phoenix's Joker outfit of how he would look. But also the idea of Joaquin Phoenix's Joker is basically supposed to be what if the Joker existed in real life.

Before Joker 2019, The Dark Knight Trilogy was maybe the best example of showing how the Batman mythos could exist in reality. The challenge for this Batman was to try that again. But this time not recreate what Christopher Nolan had did basically copying him. Yet the idea of it is how would Batman realistically look in this universe.

It's a interesting challenge. Mainly the design is what makes me think. While I know the concept of a Batsuit looking like something similar to the likes of SAS and the other examples I mentioned. It's to compliment the realistic approach taken for Joker. Basically how Christopher Nolan did for Batman and Joker before.

Including to me we've had comic accurate Batmans and Jokers before so to me it's okay to change things up a bit, be creative. Yet I understand a direction like this would get hatred. Especially how people were reacting to Joker at first.

But I keep telling myself this. The concepts I keep thinking is it's like a smaller version of Batman 1989 and The Dark Knight. Because both Batman and Joker were two major characters in those films. Yet there have been ideas of showcasing a Batmobile. The biggest challenge of that is how would that look realistic. Yes we have the Tumbler as a example and that's good. 

Including the training Bruce had in this universe. After talking with a friend and making some funny jokes. Alfred in this universe was part of the SAS when he was younger. Bruce did some smaller forms of training(Such as karate as a friend mentioned as an idea) before having Alfred help get connections to get secret training from the SAS in the United Kingdom. Including any other possible special forces training that Bruce may need in his war on crime. 

I have wondered of using Batman's first appearance as an inspiration. But I have thought of other inspirations like Ben Affleck's Batman, The Dark Knight Trilogy, Batman Arkham Origins, the Telltale Batman series. I just wanna make the best realistic Batman I can make.

Especially for this take including I remember hearing Ben Affleck’s take on Batman would of been about his mental state. This is kind of familiar. But it’s also showcasing that this Bruce Wayne is the anti thesis of who his dad was in Joker 2019. Showcasing the good Bruce does when he’s not Batman. Such as using his wealth to help those around him. I do think people might dislike the idea of a, “Softer” Batman. Yet considering the direction of this story. It’s something I wanna take and it seems fitting for a sequel to Joker 2019. Especially as a conclusion to Arthur’s story showcasing after he became Joker. The events in 1981 started a chain reaction that changed Gotham City. Including the lives of Bruce Wayne and Arthur Fleck. 

About Jay Ryan as Bruce Wayne/Batman: This is something that’s been bothering me. Casting Bruce Wayne/Batman is such a huge deal. While yes all of this is fan fiction right now. Originally Jay Ryan was my choice for the DC Black Clark Kent/Superman. But I decided to have him as Bruce Wayne/Batman. 

From what I’ve read he’s gotten experience from shows like Beauty And The Beast(Where he plays Vincent Keller the beast), and Mary Kills People(Where he plays a detective named Ben Wesley). Mainly my experience of seeing him in something was in It Chapter 2 where he played the older version of Ben Hanscom.

Mainly my biggest concern is not just his age. Yet he looks quite young anyway and there are similarities with Dante Pereira-Olson who portrayed a younger Bruce Wayne in Joker 2019. But also his performance next to Joaquin Phoenix’s Arthur Fleck/Joker. 

Which is interesting a younger Batman against a Joker who’s been doing his thing for 20 years. A weird similarity between the DCEU’s Superman and Batman. I have thought of Nicholas Hoult. But I think people may not like the choice. 

Yet when I look at it. The direction of this Batman isn’t meant to be something like Batfleck. Who had been Batman for 20 years. This is a Batman in this universe started being Batman(like in the comics) at the age of 25. Starting in 1996. Yet he’s still young and learning. Including like I mentioned he’s a, “Softer” version of other versions. Who’s the reason why Gotham is doing better now. By donating his wealth to the people of Gotham. Basically what his father never did in this universe maybe.

Brad Pitt as Jim Gordon.

The commissioner of the Gotham City Police Department. Who was present during the riots of 1981. A good cop who is trying to help everyone the best he can in Gotham City. Especially with corrupt cops being around. He’s been on trail of the Joker for some years now but without any luck. With Batman helping more he’s close to catching him. 

Little does Gordon realize the chaos that might ensure when Joker and Batman finally meet. Which will result in something more greater than the riots in 1981.

Notes: Originally actors like Bryan Cranston(who voiced the character in Batman Year One), and Tom Selleck. But considering Bryan already voiced the character, and Tom seems like it would be type casting. Because of his character’s role in Blue Bloods. Brad Pitt was chosen because of the early reports of him being James Gordon in Matt Reeves The Batman 2021.

Especially to give the cast that, “Oscar” feel or so. Considering the last film had Robert De Niro. I wanted to give Brad Pitt that chance to shine.

Sophia Lillis as Barbara Gordon.

The young daughter of Commissioner Gordon. Only 17/18 years old as of now. While her father is concerned of trusting this, “Batman” vigilante. She believes Batman is trying to do the same thing as her father. But just on the other side of the law. 

An intelligent and also brave young girl who wants to help people. While wanting to help this case somehow by trying to be a detective. She never expected that in her life she would get this deep in this search for the Joker.

Especially when she ends up meeting the proposed, “Clown Prince Of Crime” himself. Someone she has only heard stories about, but never thought she would meet.

Zazie Beetz as Sophie Dumond.  

A young women Arthur had fallen in love with during 1981. But then Arthur discovered he had been hallucinating his entire relationship with her. With Sophie now in her late 40′s. While not close to Arthur. Because of the, “Batman” trying to find out answers about who Arthur Fleck was. Sophie discovers a bit more about how Arthur felt about her. Especially with Joker remembering her again and maybe some how can restart what they had. 

Notes: There is this idea of when Batman decides to investigate who Arthur is. He tracks down anyone who may of had a connection with him. With cameos from characters like Sophie, and Gary are in this film. Because they have met him before. Mainly with Gary knowing a bit more on Arthur because of working with him. 

Just a important detail, Sophie doesn’t die. But I wanted to bring back these certain characters that had met Arthur during his transformation into the Joker. Including in this story. I decided to do a little retcon(Unless it could still be in there) by adding in the scene from what I heard about the old script. Of Arthur in his Joker outfit meeting Sophie one final time before leaving to go meet Murray Franklin. Basically apologizing to her about the incident of him being in her apartment, giving her flowers, money, and telling her he’ll be on the Murray Franklin Show.

While this may seem weird. It’s this idea that because of the road he was taking, and knowing he might not see her again. He just wanted to say something one final time to her. Despite in the movie they never had a actual relationship.

It’s this idea that after 20 years. Joker still had these feelings for her and telling her the truth of how he felt. Including how he was feeling about her. But Sophie being honest with her after everything he’s done, it probably wouldn’t work. Yet he doesn’t get angry. It’s more like he understands because she’s right in this case.

This was a character I wanted to bring back somehow. Again these are all just my ideas. Especially this was the, “Softer” Joker I’m talking about. Because it’s at this stage, he doesn’t seem to care. Because Arthur is slowly coming back and Joker just doesn’t care anymore. 

Mark Hamill as Jack Napier. 

The old boyfriend of Penny Fleck who is the reason behind Arthur’s, “Condition”. Who was released 20 years earlier. Now working among the regular people. Including trying to stay low and make sure no one knows who he is. Because after all those years of spending in jail, he is still the cold hearted man who had beaten Arthur. But now living as a hermit, not making any connections with anybody. 

During this time, Batman questions him about Arthur and where he may be at. But also when Joker discovers who Napier is and that he still lives in Gotham City. He decides to pay the old man a visit and confront him.

Notes: This is a weird addition. Because in a way it doesn’t add a whole lot except that Batman part. Mainly the addition of Penny’s boyfriend being in this story is to give the people what they want. To have Arthur/Joker give him what he deserves. Including to close a chapter in Arthur’s life. 

Mainly the scene is this weird dark comedic scene with Joker, Barbara(who’s being kept hostage by the Joker), and his followers go to Jack Napier’s apartment. With Joker revealing who he is(Despite the added Batman meeting I had thought about to give his role more meaning) to Jack Napier and what he did to him as a child. With Jack Napier admitting to not regretting abusing Arthur. Including saying Arthur deserved it. 

Joker(Even if he was already planning on doing this, Jack Napier not regretting his actions made the choice even more easy) holding a customized sledge hammer, repeatedly beats Jack Napier with the hammer to the head. Basically beating the old man to death. With Joker admitting this is a vengeance to with Napier had beaten Arthur’s head. 

It ends with Joker all tired from beating his abuser to death. Traumatizing Barbara(Which was the reason he brought her there to witness it. To show in his case, “Parents are fucking awful”) in the process. With Joker literally asking as some sort way to calm her nerves down by asking her and his followers if they want to order pizza. With Joker literally stealing Napier’s money off his corpse to pay for a possible pizza.

Including it was tough thinking of who to cast as this character. Including it’s a small role. Originally it was Clancy Brown. But I decided Mark Hamill as a easter egg because he had voiced the Joker in multiple Batman media. Such as Batman The Animated Series, and the Batman Arkham series. Especially his name being a callback to Jack Napier from Batman 1989, the Jokers real name from that film.

Douglas Hodge as Alfred Pennyworth.

Bruce Wayne’s butler, caretaker, and legal guardian after Bruce’s parents were murdered. He knows Bruce is Batman and tries to assist him the best he can. A best friend and father figure to Bruce during the most dire of times. But when Bruce discovers that his family had possible connections to Arthur’s decent into becoming the Joker. This puts a strain on their relationship as Alfred was possibly keeping this secret from Bruce. 

Sally Field as Dr, Leslie Thompkins.

A doctor who has dedicated her life to help Gotham’s unfortunate, including a surrogate mother to Bruce Wayne after his parents were murdered. She knows Bruce is Batman yet despite the dangers. She supports him being the Batman. 

Elza Gonzales as Selina Kyle.

A woman who Bruce has been dating for a while. The woman who would later or is possibly Catwoman now.

Emma Stone as Harleen Quinzel/Harley Quinn.

One of Jokers followers he’s gained along the way. A intern psychologist who was assigned to the Arthur one time. But soon fell in love with him and escaped with him. But compared to other interpretations, there isn’t really a abusive relationship between the two. Mainly just the idea Harley fell in love with Arthur/Joker but he doesn’t share the same feelings towards her. Which overtime her, “Love” for him slowly fades away, possibly helping the police track Joker now. Realizing she was never really in love with him. 

Notes: To be honest it’s difficult to deal with Harley in this story. Because there is a reason why I said this feels like a third part of a trilogy. Because Harley sounds like she would be something like from a first sequel. Including this is what I have said there seems to be too many characters for this one story. 

Especially with this angle because this Joker, while not abusive with her. Yet he doesn’t share the same feelings for her. With Joker or in this case Arthur still having feelings for Sophie after all these years. Especially it’s also the fact I’ve seen a person’s reply on a piece of Joker and Harley art(With the 2019 Joker and DCEU Harley with Batman) of this Joker probably wouldn’t abuse his Harley. But we don’t know about that. 

I’m sorry if I seem to disregard this element. I’ll be honest I’m not big on the Joker and Harley ship. Mainly because of the whole abuse thing and just let Harley stay with Poison Ivy. Especially I guess this adds to the, “Softer” Joker thing I mentioned.

But yeah Harley is such a big character that just it’s interesting to imagine her in the world of Joker 2019. Yet I’m trying to be careful with what I do with these characters.

Also Emma Stone isn’t this permeant casting choice. It was just a casting choice I went with him because choosing a suitable actress for Harley is difficult. Including crap now I’m thinking of having a Poison Ivy cameo to just give Harley a girlfriend or whatever.

Especially I have wondered of putting Vicki Vale as a cameo. Maybe Emma Stone but I don’t know. As of now in this development Emma in Harley.

Leif Gantvoort as Bob the goon.

A follower of Joker who in 1981 helped Arthur Fleck escape from Arkham State Hospital. Ever since then Bob has been Jokers, “Number One Guy” basically his right hand man/2nd in command. He’s a man who believes in Jokers cause or if he even has one. These days he helps Joker with his acts of terrorism. Being one of his most devoted followers.

Notes: As you can tell it’s Bob from Batman 1989, basically in the same role in a way. Yet it probably won’t end the same way like it did in the 1989 film.

 Other notes: I just wanna say I do have plans of showcasing Black Mask in this. But not as an important character. Mainly in a scene where he is talking to Joker, criticizing him for having no motive and everything he’s doing is doing nothing for anybody. Which results in Joker just straight up murdering Black Mask by shooting him in the face. All because Black Mask criticized Joker and what he was doing. 

Mainly Black Mask’s men are shocked but don’t do anything. Because they just lost their leader and Jokers followers are there too in the meeting. In a way Joker kind of saved Gotham from Black Mask and his criminal army. But it also unleashed more chaos.

Especially Black Mask would mention Penguin as a reference of him being a, “Deformed freak” who is a weapons dealer and crime lord like Black Mask of sorts. Including Killer Croc was supposed to be in this as a minor character who Batman takes down. With Killer Croc being described as a cannibal with a skin condition making him look like some sort of reptile. But I feel this may be too much and Killer Croc deserves his own film maybe. I wanna put Scarecrow and Harvey Dent in some ways. But it’s already too much.

[obsessiveviewer]

OV365 - The Batman (2022) - Guest: Sam Watermeier (Midwest Film Journal)

In this episode, I'm joined by my friend Sam Watermeier from Midwest Film Journal to review Matt Reeves' The Batman in a non-spoiler and spoiler discussion!

  Timestamps

  Show Start - 00:30

Introducing Sam - 02:02

  The Batman

  History with Batman - 16:42

The Batman (2022) Non-Spoiler - 28:10

The Batman (2022) Spoiler - 57:05

  Closing the Ep – 1:58:54

Pre-Recorded Outro – 2:01:42

  Related Links

  Midwest Film Journal

MFJ's "Bats on the Brain" Essay Series

Sam’s Reviews on MFJ

Sam's Letterboxd Account

Sam's Scream (2022) Review

Sam's Sundown (2022) Review

Sam's Jackass Forever (2022) Review

  My 2022 Podcast and Writing Archive

My Review of The Batman (2022)

My Review of Marry Me (2022)

My Review of Uncharted (2022)

My Throne of Blood Essay on Ben's The Movie State

My Sanshiro Sugata Essay on Ben's The Movie State

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[aquastranger]

#''it was my job to check the gear before we left. i didn't and it backfired. badly.'' ?? dick would never ?? he's so diligent??#and especially after how his parents died you'd think he would obsessively check gear??#and dick was too nice to talia?? like okay fine he feels guilty. whatever. he still should've been like EXCUSE YOU I RAISED YOUR SON#or at least have just glowered silently like my goodnesssss#Batman: Urban Legends 20 spoilers

"You're not his family. You're not anyone's family, Grayson."

Talia said that to Dick when Bruce was standing right there?? Dick's literal fucking dad?? And Bruce didn't even try to defend Dick??

You know what, no. We're just gonna ignore everything about this story *cough* except for the part where Dick said Damian means the world to him because that's obvious enough. *cough*