#Batgirl and The Birds of Prey 8

[casscainmainly]

This is a copy/paste of a reply I did to this post. I'm putting it in its own post because I genuinely need people to understand that saying Duke is unpopular because he's 'new' or unknown only furthers the racism Black characters face in fandom. This extends to the sexism Babs and Steph face, and the double racism/sexism that Cass faces.

For everyone in [this post's] notes saying [Duke's unpopularity in fanfiction] is because Duke is new, that's part of it, but absolving fandom of responsibility is misguided and sweeping both racism and sexism under the rug. The newness argument doesn't explain why Damian has more fics than Cass, Stephanie, and Babs, who all predate him.

More importantly: Jon Kent, who was introduced one year after Duke in 2015, has a total of 3,144 works under 'Jonathan Samuel Kent' and 9,280 works under 'Jon Kent'. That is 12,424 fics - around 5,000 more than Duke, despite debuting at roughly the same time.

The adaptation argument (that the ones who are more adapted are more likely to be written about) is also flawed - Tim has 3 major TV show appearances (The New Batman Adventures, Young Justice, and Titans). He cameos in Superman: The Animated Series, Static Shock, and an episode of Justice League. For films, he appears in two DCAU movies, Batman Unlimited, Gotham by Gaslight, Batman Ninja, and Death in the Family. That's 12 total appearances in film and TV.

By comparison, Barbara has an entire Wikipedia page dedicated to adaptations of her. She appears in 8 animated films, 6 animated Lego films, and has 5 animated film cameos. This is already more adaptations than Tim. Add to that 60s Batman, the Birds of Prey show, Titans, Gotham, DC Super Hero Girls, BTAS, Batman Beyond, Gotham Girls, The Batman, Batman: The Brave and the Bold, Young Justice, Beware the Batman, Teen Titans Go!, Harley Quinn, Batman: Caped Crusader, and the live action Batman & Robin, that's 35 total appearances across film and TV.

Barbara Gordon as Batgirl is undeniably more popular to the general public than Tim Drake as Robin, and her film and TV adaptations also outnumber Jason's (13, with 90% of those being pictures of him because he's dead) and Damian's (15). So if she should be more popular than Tim in every supposed metric (longevity, adaptations, even name recognition), you have to ask yourself: why is she less popular in fandom?

To return to Duke Thomas, if you're even a casual Batman fanfic reader you would know that most of his tagged fics are not about him. Duke has 7,042 tagged fics, and of those, 242 works are tagged as Duke Thomas-centric. By contrast, Tim Drake has 62,704 total works, with 3,809 tagged Tim Drake-centric. That means 3.4% of Duke fics are tagged as Duke-centric, whereas 6% of Tim fics - almost twice as much - are Tim-centric. This is not a perfect metric by any means (for example, Dick actually has less than Duke with 2%, though this is due to him having a bonkers amount of fics), but it is illustrative of the trend that literally anyone who's skimmed AO3 could tell you.

More comparisons: Jason Todd (2,990/76,427 = 3.9%), Damian Wayne (1,870/45,635 = 4%), Cassandra Cain (200/17,060 = 1.1%), Barbara Gordon (54/16,729 = 0.3%). Keep in mind not everyone uses the -centric tag, but this is generally useful to see broad trends.

If debut date, adaptations, popularity among the public, amount of canon content, or presence in major Batman events were truly the deciding factor, Barbara would be the second most popular character in fandom (behind Dick). However, she isn't. Even Dick isn't the most popular - Tim, despite his lack of adaptations, is clearly the Batboy centred most in fanfiction and fandom. Therefore, the treatment of Babs, Steph, Cass, and Duke in fandom cannot be attributed purely to lack of knowledge.

Blaming fandom's focus on the White- or White-passing boys on canon is ignoring the signs of racial and gendered biases in the way we latch onto characters. Fandom barely cares about canon - most Titans Tower AUs or family fluff blatantly ignore huge chunks of comics. If we can ignore Gotham War, make up lies about Red Robin (2009), and pretend Tim's allergic to shrimp, why can't we extend that imagination to the POC and female characters? Why are they less worthy of our efforts to make stories about them, whether they have canon/adaptational histories or not?

All this to say, trying to explain away the lack of works for Duke and the girls will not solve anything. Making excuses for the fandom is only perpetuating the racist and sexist erasure of these characters. Instead, read their comics! Here is a list of reading guides for POC characters.

Not interested in comics? Read these Duke fics (compiled by @himejoshiangels)! Also take the time to go through the Barbara Gordon-centric tag and support those creators. Feel free to post any recs of your own as well :).

[zahri-melitor]

I hate to be that person however:

"Why are Dick and Babs together in comics? They're being forced together!"

Dick Grayson and Barbara Gordon?

Yeah. A mystery.

But I guess, it might have a little something to do with the fact that back in 1995 both Dick and Barbara had returned to be firmly under control of the Bat office.

And in 1996 Chuck Dixon started writing them flirting with each other in Nightwing. And Devin Grayson wrote them having rooftop reminiscences on New Year's Eve where they told each other the same stories every year in DC Holiday Bash II. Which carried through to them flirting in Birds of Prey in 1999, and to having their first proper date on panel in Birds of Prey #8. And then shortly afterwards having them be very cosy in a dating way as Barbara patched Dick up in No Man's Land after he broke out of Blackgate.

And in 2000 we had the Hunt for Oracle crossover where Dick and Dinah had to work together to protect Barbara from Blockbuster's men coming to kill her.

And in 2001 Dick was sleeping over at Barbara's house and Barbara and Dinah had to rescue him when he was kidnapped by Shrike, and Babs was tucking little love notes in his gauntlet. And they had a favourite place to go for drives for a date and eat crab cakes in Joker: Last Laugh.

And in 2002 their contribution to Our Worlds at War involved Barbara and Dick travelling to another world and staking out a situation where they ended up making out by a fire. A lot.

And in 2003 we got Batgirl Year One which firmly retconned Dick and Babs into having dated in their teens.

And they KEPT dating until they officially paused their relationship in early 2004 while Dick's life was burning down around him, but they were STILL looking out for each other and when they officially bilaterally decided to break up with the other in Nightwing #100 and Birds of Prey #76 they left each other practically identical voicemails explaining how they loved the other one too much and their heads weren't in the right place and that it wasn't fair to be dating right now but they were still incredibly important to each other. As is obvious, in Birds of Prey #86 where Dick comes to Babs' house party in Metropolis and apologises and the two just hang out, sitting side by side.

And then in 2006 right as everyone expected Dick to be about to die in Infinite Crisis, Dick proposed to Babs and she accepted, because as I repeat this was written expecting Dick to DIE and even then the last thing they wanted to give him was to make sure that they were together.

And even when the engagement was broken off in 52 due to the rebellion saving Dick and Conner dying instead, Dick and Babs were still ready to drop anything for the other if one of them called, as seen by Dick coming at Babs' call when she faced off against Katrina Armstrong, or Dick taking Babs skydiving for her birthday in Origins and Omens in Nightwing #153. (I repeat, Origins and Omens, a series of shorts that were supposed to be Portending Doom moments or restating a character's background. Dick took Babs on a date)

And then during Reborn even while Dick and Babs were fighting with each other over the best direction for Gotham (and how hopeless the other's protege was) they still found time to get closer again, as seen in The Black Mirror and Birds of Prey #10.

And then it was the New 52 and while Barbara and Dick spent all 5 years of this Officially Not Dating, it was not because they didn't LOVE each other. Oh, no. In between having fond reminiscences of when they dated as teenagers while Robin and Batgirl, they were always checking in on each other, and the other's first phonecall. Babs bitterly mourned Dick's death and their lost future in Batgirl #30. Every time one of them gets out of a relationship they turn around and see the other, only to find THEM in a new relationship. But they're backing each other up and hanging out together and the UST just keeps building.

And then we get Convergence: Nightwing and Oracle in 2015 in a specific continuation of preboot, where Dick and Babs are together again (and basically getting to rerun No Man's Land) and in the face of alien nightmares and the end of the world, again, Dick proposes again and Barbara, after contemplation, accepts and they get married.

And then it's Rebirth and 2016 and Dick and Barbara are still circling around each other and turning up in the other's books for team ups and deep and meaningful conversations, and flashing back to their teens together (Batgirl #14-17 2016), and Dick has to talk seriously with Babs about What They Have Between Them before he has his relationship and pregnancy scare with Shawn Tsang and if either of them were simultaneously single it is obvious that it would very shortly be BACK ON.

(And then I am currently up to mid 2018 on my read and Dick is very shortly about to get head-injuried into being Ric for a while)

However I am aware that in Dark Nights: Death Metal Dick and Barbara get unofficially married again because it's the end of the world and they'd rather be married than not (are you sensing a theme here?).

And in Li'l Gotham, which is largely an adaption-continuation of preboot with some quirks of its own, Dick and Babs are very seriously dating and possibly may be married.

And in Juni Ba's The Boy Wonder Dick and Babs are so together they're discussing the shopping list while crime fighting.

Like, the answer to "why are Dick and Babs dating in Nightwing" is basically "have you read any of the last 28 years of Bat comics?" Because I dunno, but I have read almost every joint appearance of Dick and Babs between 1995 and 2018 so far and let me tell you they are either dating, lusting after each other with a lot of UST, or determinedly explaining to the other why they can't be together at this exact second because [obstacle].

It's not exactly hard up for precedent, folks.

[armed-with-a-waffle-iron]

List of Bat Family Team-Ups and Crossovers from the Batman: Reborn Era

While to me the late 90s and early 00s produced the quintessential Bat Family, 2009-11 (plus Convergence) gives us a maturing and quickly evolving Bat Family; forced to reckon with the themselves and their pasts, to sustain a future. Crossovers had a very different tone to 10 years prior; all that shared history now boils to the surface, asking if these already complicated relationships, new and old, will stand the test of time. I also added links and bolded my favourites.

For newer readers: This is the period after Bruce Wayne's "death", which caused a reshuffling of monikers and Gotham to break into chaos. The extended Bat Family at this point includes Dick Grayson (Batman III), Damian Wayne (Robin V), Stephanie Brown (Batgirl IV), Barbara Gordon (Oracle), Helena Bertinelli (The Huntress), Dinah Lance* (Black Canary II), Tim Drake-Wayne (Red Robin), Cassandra Wayne (Black Bat), Selina Kyle (Catwoman), Kate Kane (Batwoman II), Renee Montoya (The Question II), Jason Todd* (Red Hood II) and Bruce Wayne (Batman I).

Team Up Comic Runs

Batman and Robin 2009 (#1-26)

Dick and Damian

Batgirl 2009 (#1-24)

Steph and Babs

Birds of Prey 2010 (#1-15)

Babs, Helena and Dinah

Team Up/Crossover Arcs

Battle for the Cowl (#1-3)

Dick, Babs, Tim, Damian, Helena, Selina, Squire, Cass (cameo), Dinah (cameo), and Jason (antagonist).

Batgirl Rising: Point of New Origin (Batgirl 2009 #1-3)

Steph, Babs, Cass (flashback), and Dick and Damian (cameos)

Revenge of the Red Hood (Batman and Robin 2009 #4-6)

Dick, Damian, and Jason (antagonist)

Life After Death (Batman #692-697)

Dick, Helena, Selina, Babs and Damian

Blackest Night: Batman (#1-3)

Dick, Tim, Damian and Babs

The Eighth Deadly Sin (Batman Annual #27 & Detective Comics Annual #11)

Dick, Renee and Damian

Leviathan (Streets of Gotham #5-6)

Helena, Babs, Dick and Damian

Batgirl Rising: Core Requirements (Batgirl 2009 #5-7)

Steph, Babs, Dick and Damian

Collision (Red Robin # 9, Batgirl 2009 #8 & Red Robin #10-12)

Tim, Steph, Dick, Babs, Damian, and Helena (cameo)

Blackest Knight (Batman and Robin 2009 #7-9)

Dick, Kate, Knight & Squire, and Damian

The Flood (Batgirl 2009 #9-12)

Steph, Babs, Selina (antagonist), Helena (antagonist), and cameos for Dick, Tim and Damian.

Pipeline: Chapter Two (The Question: Pipeline or Detective Comics #859-864)

Renee and Helena

The Hit List (Red Robin #13-17)

Tim, Dick, Damian, Cass (epilogue), and Steph (cameo)

Batman: Imposters (Detective Comics #867-870)

Dick, Babs, and Renee (cameo)

Black Mass (Batman and Robin 2009 #16)

Dick, Damian and Bruce

Bruce Wayne: The Road Home: Batgirl

Steph, Babs and Bruce

The Great Escape (Batman #703 & Bruce Wayne: The Road Home: Batman and Robin)

Dick, Damian, Tim and Bruce

Bruce Wayne: The Road Home: Oracle

Babs, Bruce, and Steph (cameo)

Bruce Wayne: The Road Home: Red Robin

Tim and Bruce

Planet Gotham (Batman: The Return)

Bruce, Dick, Steph, Damian, Babs and Tim

Batman: The Black Mirror (Detective Comics #771-781)

Dick, Commish Gordon, Babs and Tim

All the Rage (Detective Comics Annual 12 & Batman Annual 28)

Dick, Bruce and Renee

The Lesson: Frogs, Snails & Puppy-Dog Tails... (Batgirl #17)

Steph and Damian

Judgement on Gotham (Batman 708, Red Robin #22, Gotham City Sirens #22 & Batman #709)

Dick, Selina and Tim

The Streets Run Red (Batman and Robin 2009 #23-25)

Dick, Damian, and Jason (antagonist)

Five Minutes Fast (Batgirl 2009 #22)

Steph and Squire

Batman Incorporated: Leviathan Strikes!

Steph and Bruce (part 1) | Bruce, Dick, Damian and Tim (part 2)

Hostile Takeover (Birds of Prey #12-13)

Helena, Renee, Babs and Dinah

The Gates of Gotham (#1-5)

Dick, Cass, Damian and Tim

7 Days of Death, Part 3 (Red Robin #25)

Tim and Cass

Storybook Endings (Batman #713)

Dick and Damian, but cameos for Bruce, Tim, Steph, Babs, Helena and Selina.

Unsinkable (Batgirl 2009 #24)

Steph and Babs, cute cameos for Damian and Cass

new reader note: Flashpoint ends Post Crisis continuity here but the 2015 Convergence event revisits this continuity for one last time, giving us a few more complete endings.

Father and Sons (Convergence: Batman and Robin)

Bruce, Damian and Jason

The Love Song of Stephanie Brown (Convergence: Batgirl)

Steph, Cass and Tim

Just One More Thing… (Convergence: The Question)

Renee, Helena and Kate

Birds of Rage (Convergence: Nightwing/Oracle)

Dick, Babs and Dinah

[nightwingfightwing]

How many times can Dick get shit kicked out of him by a Batman lookalike?? Surely there must be a limit. Bro isn't even a bird of prey, go get (more) traumatized in your own series

(Batgirl and the Birds of Prey 2016, #8)

[asongofstarkandtargaryen]

Dickbabs dates

Technically, this wasn't exactly a date as Babs was invited in a Wayne Gala but teenage dickbabs decided to get away from adults and spend time together on the rooftop.

Batgirl (2011) issue #3

2. Their first actual date:

Nightwing (1996) annual # 2

3. Dickbabs going to the prom together:

DC's saved by the belle rave

4. Going out to have fun and be spies at the same time:

Batgirls issue #7

5. Starting their date on a cinema but because this got interrupted they ended up have a movie night with their family:

Nightwing (2016) issue #108

. Look how comfortable they are being affectionate in front of their beloved batfamily:

6. Dickbabs on a date talking about their dog:

Nightwing Annual (2022)

7. Their newest date addition:

How to lose a Guy Garden in 10 days

8. Last but not least, my favourite date of them:

Birds of Prey (1998) issue #8

[havendance]

Okay, I've read up to before the Night of the Owls crossover, so let's take a moment to look at my New 52 read so far:

Batman -- I think I liked the start of this arc the most, when it's laying out the mystery and feels full of potential. I'm just not a fan of the court of owls. The issue where he was in the labrinth and all the pages got flipped around was a cool concept, but an absolute pain to read digitally. Whenever I tried to rotate my tablet to read the textboxes, my device would go 'oh you're rotating! I know how to do that!' and flip the pages back -_- It probably worked better physically.

Batman and Robin -- I liked this. I liked seeing as Bruce tried to negotiate his relationship with Damian and I liked Nobody as an antagonist drawing on the history of the people who trained Batman.

Nightwing -- I started reading this and I was like 'yes, this is what a reboot should do. Bring back Haly's Circus after it was stupidly burned down previously.' and what does this comic do? Burn down Haly's Circus again!!! Can't have shit in Nightwing comics :/

Anyway, I loved seeing Nightwing try and negotiate his relationships as Nightwing as opposed to his friendships he made at the circus. I liked the push and pull between him and Babs and him and Raya. I think, in this universe where Dick was way older when he became Robin, it works really well, and while I obviously prefer Dick being like 8, I would say that this works well as it's own thing if it weren't for the elephant in the tent-- Haly's Circus being evil (boooooooooo!)

Like I said, can't have shit in Nightwing comics :|

I don't want Haly's Circus to be evil. I don't want them to be working for the court. If you really want the whole Nightwing was raised to be a living weapon thing, then idk, make it something none of them knew about, like some outsider that had been infiltrating and using the circus for their own ends. Don't have Mr Haly be the guy selling dick/that other guy out :(

Birds of Prey -- In contrast to Nightwing, this comic is just extremely mediocre. It's almost impressive how mid it is. I like Saiz' art but I'm struggling to find much else positive to say about it. It's fine. It gets the job done. It's missing that spark to do anything more interesting than girl team fights bad guys. On that same token, I'm having trouble coming up with much to criticize either. Like, obviously I think it would be better if Birds of Prey were still Oracles team, but like, other than the fact that I still think Katana's off (but I haven't read enough of her comics to articulate more), it's hard to find much to complain other than it's just mediocre and boring. Nightwing has high highs and low lows. This is like a flat line.

Batgirl -- I miss Oracle :'( But more seriously, Barbara Gordon as Batgirl has never been as intersting to me as her as Oracle. I liked the subplot of her trying to figure out how to have a new relationship with her mom--it was probably my favorite part and I liked seeing that new aspect of her. That being said, ugh, James Gordon Jr. I just do not like him as a character. He's too grim dark edgy for my tastes.

Another thing that goes into the 'I miss Oracle' category is her new dynamic with Bruce. She's over here caring about his opinion and everything and that's part of her getting aged down yet again, but also I miss when they were antagonistic and she didn't take his shit. As well as the whole question of 'why do we need to keep the killing joke in the first place?' You're rebooting the universe. Why do you need to rub taking Oracle away in our faces like this when you could've just had her never be shot. Though, I do appreciate how Simone is handling the internal conflict that Barbara is experiencing as a result of all of that.

[dailycass-cain]

Birds of Prey #7-8 is a neat little two-issue arc that had a lot of cute Cass stuff sprinkled throughout. So here are my thoughts (at last for #7) on the two issues.

I gotta say one surprising improvement is well, everyone gets more moments sprinkled throughout the two issues.

Then say one per issue. That and we get the members who came back with this issue bonding/training Sin/Megaera. That's where Cass comes in...

I love that the introduction for Cass is side by side with Barda (since their growing bond has been a major fun selling point of the series).

This is the (outside of Batman: Wayne Family Adventures and Batgirls) that Cass does normal things like going laser questing.

It's obvious everyone is having fun here, but also trying to gauge Sin's skills both as a combatant and in her new powerset.

I do like that writer Kelly Thompson brings back Cass being a fighting teacher.

It's something Batgirls gave us (though not the first with Cass teaching Steph), but then the little Nightwing backup again gave us it with Cass training with Dick.

I always love this aspect of Cass helping her comrades get better and her being a teacher. Just makes that moment in Scott Snyder/James Tynion IV JL run all the sweeter. That folks SHOULD come to Cass for help in their fighting prowess.

If there's any nitpick, I kind of want for Thompson to bring up Sin being raised to be the next Shiva. Like, technically it's an aspect somewhat overlooked in the run so far surprisingly (save in Cass joining the cause).

But I get "the why" Thompson hasn't dug into it yet. This is a two-issue arc, and it's gotta introduce our newest members, Vixen and Babs. And it's just that a "nit-pick".

I just hope Thompson is given the chance to eventually dig into that aspect.

Though in a way, she already is as all three ladies were born to be weapons but chose a different path. The fact they're just having fun but also being mentors to Sin is neat.

But yeah the other section for Cass this issue leads us to the moment me and others have been using and gushing over the last month. Mari gives Cass choices on wearing lingerie (if you're very very quiet you can hear Stephanie Brown still crying not appearing here and instead in another book.).

This moment really feels like Thompson course-correcting an aged badly moment from Batgirl Vol. 1 #39 with Babs accidentally making Cass wear a one-piece and she feels bad.

I think the fault isn't on Horrocks more per se the "product of the time" and WHO was slowly coming into power at DC around then.

Plus the actual end message in Batgirl #41 works quite well. With Cass figuring things out thanks to Kon (and aliens).

The moment over in BoP is just a page but artist Javier Pina captures SOOO much in the exchanges between Mari and Cass.

Just between the glances, you can tell Mari fully understands more and is more open to figuring out the common ground link that'll work for Cass.

I mean just look at these reactions. They say so many things and are just perfect moments for Cass (which is why I will be using these like crazy).

And of course, the piece Mari picks for Cass is just absolutely stunning and yeah perfectly works for the character.

I would love a creator's commentary on this how they chose each look for each Bird.

So yeah #7 was a great continuation of the plot with #8 wrapping the arc up, but setting it up for the next big thing for our Birds.

#8 began with bringing back someone I thought we'd never see with Batgirls ending last June, Detective Brooks.

I mean he isn't fully name-dropped but those who read Batgirls are in "the know" and it's nice continuity by Thompson in Brooks continuing his partnership with Oracle.

Even though I didn't notice him really doing much after the intro.

So let's get to the crux of this issue with it pertains to Cass.

Cass somehow flying around throwing batarangs (I'm not even gonna wanna answer where she was storing those) and fighting in high heels (just again doing a better job of it than in Batgirl #45).

I know everyone's eyes were on Barda in the fight, but you know where mine were. So yeah it was an interesting detail of Cass doing that, along with being the only Bird keeping her mask on.

Again this is a nice little touch because it shows Cass maturing and actually keeping a dual identity. Something that was quite a problem for her in Batgirl Vol. 1 at times (and some can say Tynion's Tec Knights run too).

If there's any negative (but I digress again minor nitpick) is how quickly Babs is ensnared by the mysterious force trying to end her (but #7 did showcase how easily Mari was swayed).

Anyhoot this was a fun little two-part arc and I'm really curious where the comic goes from here. Each Bird got a good moment and really the only downside was my minor nitpicks.

Birds of Prey continues to be a REAL fun series and I really do enjoy Thompson's Cass. I'm really curious given what we'll get with the character in the upcoming issues given the premise seems to be in the mind of each Bird.

[franollie]

10, 12, 13, 14, 15 for Babs

10.Best moment on screen (or in the book):

| Birds of Prey #8

There's a lot to pull from and in all honesty I think half the appeal to Babs for me is her relationship with Cass. But I'm also really drawn to her relationship with disability

12. Crack headcanon

She has a pet ferret! I'm torn between naming it Cookie (like the data that recognizes you when you return to the cite) or Byte. I just really like thinking of fun ways to include her on little BOP missions or just as a buddy for babs while she works in the clocktower.

13. Dumbest thing they’ve ever done

date dick grayson. multiple times. girl how have you not realized you're in love with dinah...

14. Most heroic moment

| Countdown #39

not necessarily one moment, but my girl is in fact in charge of protecting the secret identities of every superhero in the world so like she's a pretty big deal

15. Worst thing they’ve ever done

| Batgirl (2000) #54

listen...i know we all like to bring up the slut shaming and the invasion of dick's privacy but like this...this is nigh on unforgivable for me. this obviously reveals a lot about the intricacies of cass and bab's relationship and the hypocrisy both of them show towards each other's disability but like...cass has shown in her own way how smart she is. babs is supposed to be the one to always be on her side

Ask Game

[trust-and-jump]

The reasons to need to write and read Reverse Robins AU

Damian having a place with his long-awaited father. A father who is not neglectful and who still can show he cares. Who can still talk to him. And a father he doesn't have to share with someone, yet. and this.

_^

Bruce having to mature in order to be a parent. And NOT having Dick Grayson as a ward. At least not now. Bruce adapting to the idea of having his own family. Bruce having to actually talk and explain things to the little creature who was raised in a VERY different environment. Bruce getting out of his head a little. Growing up a little before getting a kid. Because Bruce can't have 8-12 y o Damian being 24 y o himself, sorry.

Exploring Tim Drake's potential outside of a very weird comic character who is loved by many people on Ao3 but non-existent on it. Outside of Robin, too. Also: Tim Drake Can Do Wrong. Tim Drake Does Wrong. Letting him be an interesting character.

Letting Jason Todd be a Robin (or Shrike, or whatever Batman's partner called in different RR!AUs) he used to be before DC decided he was just an angry incompetent sidekick Who Didn't Listen and Got Himself Killed. Letting him be good again. And yes, he was good. and I absolutely adore the idea of Damian as a big brother.

Dick getting a big family of very different people who have different opinions - after a terrible loss. Dick growing up healthier than he did. Dick not jumping into vigilante life. Or at least not for long. Or at least not in SUCH YOUNG AGE, BATMAN. Dick getting a whole bunch of people who have no problem with him at all and who start to love him almost immediately. And looking after him better so he doesn't get a chance to run without pants on the Gotham streets.

Very different roles of Barbara Gordon, Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Brown.

How did Cassandra Cain end up in Gotham? Did No Man's Land happen? WILL it happen? Does she have a name? Who named her if not Barbara Gordon? Did she get ability to speak? Did she die like comic version? Was she a Batgirl?

STEPHANIE BROWN GETTING BETTER TREATMENT, DC!!!!! Did she become a Robin (/whatever you call it) as well? Did she get the same relationship with Damian as canon? Who is she as a young girl without canon!Bruce's and canon!Tim's bullshit? Do she and Cassandra Cain get along? Is she a Batfamily member in the AU or does she have canon-like role outside of it?

Do the Birds of Prey exist?

Exploring how Damian's Robin (/whatever you call it) would look like; and how it would affect the Bat-Clan.

Exploring the relationships between Robins (/whatever you call it) and other young heroes. Exploring the other hero families who most likely are reversed too.

The hero names. Capes. Histories.

Exploring how all of it would affect Gotham and Gotham's criminals. Rogues, too.

What the hell is going on with Duke Thomas???? I honestly have no idea how I would put him into my AU... but he's also part of Rebirth if I'm not mistaken? so I actually don't have too. He is a wonderful character (HE IS SO COOL. SO. COOL.) and my lack of imagination has nothing to do with me loving or hating him.

Talia al Ghul.

Talia al Ghul.

Talia al Ghul.

Changing events without changing what you like about it.

also I don't care about Ra's al Ghul BUT Batman Chronicles #8 make me think about him a lot.

inspired by @msfcatlover's AUs. And some others. And mine, too.

[iggy-gotthisaccountunderduress]

"the grudge" by Olivia Rodrigo

Part 2 of my Barbara Gordon playlist project. See the rest at #babs songs

I'm freaking out over this song once again, so it seems like the time to talk about it online.

Why this song?:

It really sums up a part of Barbara that I wish was talked about more. She can't help but keep grudges, bc she remembers everything. Every little hurtful thing anyone ever did is etched into her brain forever. How do you carry that around all the time? With a lot of strength and compassion.

But specifically it relates to the Killing Joke and all the crap the Joker's ever done. She literally can't let it go.

Comics moments that vibe with the song:

Birds of Prey Issue #8

Batgirl New 52 Issues #14-16

Batman Chronicles Issue #5

Lyrics that make me go feral:

I have nightmares each week about that Friday in May One phone call from you and my entire world was changed

Took everything I loved and crushed it in between your fingers And I doubt you ever think about the damage that you did But I hold onto every detail like my life depends on it

And I hear your voice every time that I think I'm not enough

And I try to be tough, but I wanna scream How could anybody do the things you did so easily? And I say I don't care, I say that I'm fine But you know I can't let it go I've tried, I've tried, I've tried for so long It takes strength to forgive, but I don't feel strong

The arguments that I have won against you in my head In the shower, in the car and in the mirror before bed Yeah, I'm so tough when I'm alone and I make you feel so guilty And I fantasize about a time you're a little fucking sorry And I try to understand why you would do this all to me You must be insecure, you must be so unhappy

Full lyrics are under the Keep Reading

I have nightmares each week about that Friday in May One phone call from you and my entire world was changed Trust that you betrayed, confusion that still lingers Took everything I loved and crushed it in between your fingers And I doubt you ever think about the damage that you did But I hold onto every detail like my life depends on it My undying love, now I hold it like a grudge And I hear your voice every time that I think I'm not enough

And I try to be tough, but I wanna scream How could anybody do the things you did so easily? And I say I don't care, I say that I'm fine But you know I can't let it go I've tried, I've tried, I've tried for so long It takes strength to forgive, but I don't feel strong

The arguments that I have won against you in my head In the shower, in the car and in the mirror before bed Yeah, I'm so tough when I'm alone and I make you feel so guilty And I fantasize about a time you're a little fucking sorry And I try to understand why you would do this all to me You must be insecure, you must be so unhappy And I know in my heart hurt people hurt people And we both drew blood, but, man, those cuts were never equal

And I try to be tough, but I wanna scream How could anybody do the things you did so easily? And I say I don't care, I say that I'm fine But you know I can't let it go I've tried, I've tried, I've tried for so long It takes strength to forgive, but I don't feel strong

Ooh, do you think I deserved it all? Ooh, your flowers filled with vitriol You built me up to watch me fall You have everything and you still want more

I try to be tough, I try to be mean But even after all this, you're still everything to me And I know you don't care, I guess that that's fine But you know I can't let it go I've tried, I've tried, I've tried for so long It takes strength to forgive, but I'm not quite sure I'm there yet It takes strength to forgive, but

[beeceit]

alrighty, I went through my dc universe infinite history (keeping in mind, this does NOT include stuff I read on other sites or stuff I own physically. For example, somewhere I have a nearly complete collection including all of the new 52 Birds of Prey run)

The Boy Wonder #1-4 The Long Halloween #1-13 Robin Lives #428, #1 #2 The New Titans #1, #43-45, Annual #3, #60-65 Batman (1940) #402, #426-429, #440-443, #448-449, #652-#660, #663-666 Batman Urban Legends #6 #10 #4 #5 DC vs Vampires #1-12 Batman/Superman World’s Finest #1-6 The Titans #17-#18 Detective Comics (2016) #940-971, #1000 Blackest Night Batman #1-3 Red Robin #1-26 Teen Titans (2003) #1-55 Nightwing (2016) #1, Fear State Impulse #1 Young Justice #1-12, 80 page giant, #40 Batman Gotham Adventures #1 Batman (2016) #130-150 Batman and The Signal #1-3 Nightwing (1996) #100-103, #106 Adventure Comics (2009) #3 Batman and Robin (2011) #31 Red Hood and the Outlaws (2016) #1-9 Joker: Last Laugh #6 Batman: Battle For the Cowl #1-3 Azrael: Death’s Dark Knight #1 Gotham Gazette: Batman Dead? #1 Convergence: Batgirl #1-2 Batgirl: Secret Files and Origins #1 Detective Comics (1937) #734, #819-827 Blackest Night #0-1 Green Lantern (2005) #43 Superman (1987) #70 Red Hood: The Hill #1-2 Robin (1993) #175-182 Tim Drake: Robin #1-6 Knight Terrors: Robin #1-2 Robin (1991) #1-4 Teen Titans (2011) #1 Robins: Robins Being Robin We Are Robin #7-8 The Batman Who Laughs #1-7

growing up, new52 birds of prey was my first and only subscription to a comic, but we'd go through the $1 back issues bins all the time and just pick up whatever had a cool cover and that behavior definitely stayed with me lol

[zahri-melitor]

Having knocked over a bunch of titles over in the last few weeks, a personal update on what titles I'm currently reading (both in new titles and my back catalogue reading):

Current New Titles:-

Batman

Batman/Superman: World's Finest (though I have to say I'm getting close to dropping this unless Waid and Mora can get their act together and start telling stories NOT involving Waid's old Elseworlds or the freaking 5th dimensional imps)

Batman: The Brave and the Bold (it's still managing to have at least one storyline per issue I am enjoying)

Batman and Robin

Birds of Prey

Green Arrow

Shazam!

The Flash

The Boy Wonder

Zatanna: Bring Down The House

The Nice House By The Sea

Have been cancelled on me:-

Blue Beetle

Outsiders

Back Catalogue Read - currently in August 2018 for the Bats:-

Batman 2016 (#48)

Detective Comics (#983)

Nightwing 2016 (#48)

Batgirl 2016 (#25)

Saga of the Swamp Thing 1982 (#27)

Secret Six 2008 (#8)

Contemplating adding in:-

Catwoman 2018

Teen Titans 2003

Maybe an Elseworld? Gotham by Gaslamp perhaps

Catch up Super Sons

Long Halloween

Wonder Woman 1987 Byrne run

[call-me-oracle]

for the batfandom ask game:

What's your favourite comic of all time? (Alternately, what is your favourite story that's based on a comic or superhero?)

5. But with a twist! If you could go back and change the outcome of The Killing Joke, would you?

hi!!!!! thank you so much for the ask :))

for (1) if i absolutely HAD to choose only one, i'd say robin (2021) issue 5. i just think it's such a good exploration of damian as a character and how he works in correlation with the other robins. somehow williamson gets the characterization of all the other robins right too, despite how many of them there are, and while some may claim it's fanon-y, it's genuinely heartwarming to actually see them acting like siblings and not...fighting each other violently like in mainline batman

also would say million-dollar debut of batgirl, birds of prey #8, and batgirl: year one are up there for favourite babs stories! and on the marvel side, the debut of sharon carter in the 70s is top tier, alongside the post-civil war brubaker run with bucky and natasha and winter solider (2012).

(5) is a tough one but i don't think i would actually. i think babs being oracle and being a superhero with a physical disability is so important for the visibility of disabled peoples, and her character development as the character from that moment onwards is amazing. even if the killing joke was intended to be barbara's official "retirement" from batgirl, and she was never intended to be used again in batman stuff after that, i think it speaks to the comic writing community and ostrander and yale for bringing her back in a way that made her so much more nuanced than before and i'd say better. of course now, post new-52 and with barbara being able to walk again, it feels a lot for naught. but i have hopes that one day dc will get over themselves and recognize her actual importance as oracle, and not batgirl. it is seriously limiting for her to continue to be in that role while her peers. who mentored at the same time as her under batman. like dick and jason now have their own, new, established adult identities

if there is one thing i'd remove from the killing joke, it's the stuff with the photography that happened after the joker shoots her. i think that was unnecessary and just an indication of how little dc valued her at the time.

[dccomicsbracket]

Motivations:

Corky Baxter

He has a pet racoon who he uses to attack enemies. He's just a sad and guilty child

Stephanie Brown (Batgirl), Cassandra Cain (Batgirl), & Sin Lance

baby birds of prey

[asongofstarkandtargaryen]

Dick being there to catch Barbara:

Nightwing #105

Batgirl (2011) # 3

Birds of Prey (1999) #8

[havendance]

birds of prey :]

8. Terry Moore -- He only wrote like a three issue story for birds of prey, so perhaps it is petty of me to for one, include him on this list, and two, put him at the bottom, but I am still sore that the moment Dixon left the title this guy gave a story where Barbara gets temporarily magi-cured. Like, come on.

7. Gilbert Hernandez -- The other fill in author between Dixon and Simone. Also clearly suffers from thinking Batgirl is cooler than Oracle. Also metamopho is there for some reason.

6. Duane Swierczynski -- His birds of prey run is just mediocre to the extreme. Yeah, it's the new 52 and the Birds of Prey don't even really feel like the Birds of Prey and whatever, but also it's just too mid to rank lower. Also Strix was kind of interesting at the end of the run.

5. Julie and Shawna Benson -- Okay, here me out. I feel like this is my controversial one ranking them so high, but this is with the context that I've only read the first 6 issues and the rebirth issue. Yes, I'm not a fan of Helena's mom being alive and the amount of contempt they have towards Oracle!Babs fans is not great, but also I feel like they failed in a spectacular way that makes them more interesting than the blah that is Swierczynski's run, I'm willing to give them more ground than Moore and Hernandez who I am just pettily biased against, and also I'm a sucker for legacy characters and I keep thinking about how Gus could've been cool if it weren't for the everything.

4. Kelly Thompson and

3. Tony Bedard

There's a big jump between 5 and 4 and then Thompson and Bedard are really neck in neck for me so I want to talk about them together. Bedard's run I felt was honestly kind of mid. I'd honestly compare it to Swierczynski's in that way. But what it has that Swierczynski's lacks is a) helena b) oracle c) manhunter, d) misfit, and e) it actually feels like a birds of prey run. It also has all of those points on Thompson's run. Now Thompson's run has both Cass and Barda and the art consistently really slaps, but I think that D is the deciding point here. Thompson's run is fun, and it's still ongoing so my opinion on it will probably change over time, but it's also dinged by the fact that the issue 10 was pretty weak and I am susceptible to regency bias.

2. Gail Simone -- The reason that Simone is ranked at number two is honestly because she was cursed with having so many bad artists. She did not get a good artist until Nicola Scott and I was suffering for it. I like that she brought in Helena and I like the ideas behind a lot of her plots though sometimes they feel like they lose something in execution (the art probably does not help there). Her Helena characterization also feels off to me, but there's also a lot of enjoyable comics and moments in there and I did really like the spy smasher arc.

1. Chuck Dixon -- I'm sorry but I just really have a soft spot for Dixon's run. Were there misses? Yes. (eyes that dinosaur island arc he closed off on) but the Dinah and Barbara of it all was just so good. I have a soft spot for Manhunt, and also the art did not consistently burn my eyes.