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beneaththetangles · 4 years ago

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BtT Light Novel Club Chapter 21: Infinite Dendrogram, Vol. 4

Welcome back to the Light Novel Club!

Before we begin, I would like to mention the official Beneath the Tangles Discord. We have a Light Novel Club channel there, where you can discuss light novels to your heart’s content! And for future Light Novel Club discussions, we might even ask some of our questions in that channel, where your answers may get featured in our discussion posts! So if you enjoy light novels, I definitely encourage you to join our Discord and participate in the Light Novel Club channel!

With that said, let’s jump into our discussion of vol. 4 of the VRMMO light novel Infinite Dendrogram! We’ve already covered three volumes of this series, but things are heating up with the beginning of Franklin’s Game, so Jeskai Angel, Gaheret, and I are here to get a piece of the action.

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1. What are your overall impressions of this volume?

Gaheret: Overall, I still feel the author should be able to tell what he wants us to know in a way that feels more organic to the story, and I think that he tells too much. What I find to be the best parts (worldlers vs. ludos, the perspective of tians, religions and cults, the psychology of the players, consequences of the interactions of the two worlds, BNHA-like fights of different powers with different logics, mysteries) took a step back in this volume for the most part while videogame fights which, this being a super-realistic videogame, were kind of disturbing images (I´m thinking of Marie shooting an old man point blank, of the leader of the traitors unadvertely slicing his captive priestess friend, or of Rook cutting Marie´s arm off, or the casual comment that Yuri/Hugo should’ve crushed Rook’s head at the first chance). As a fight among experienced gamers who were clearly playing, I found Marie v. Veldorbell to be the most entertaining.

stardf29: So this volume was definitely an action-packed one, more focused on the fights than on other sorts of development. It’s fun for what it is, and it’s interesting to see how these various characters outside of Ray, whom we’ve gotten to know all this time, actually fight in battle. At the same time, it definitely feels like this is just the middle chapter of the story arc that started in the last volume, so while I might have felt that some sort of extra development might be nice, I think there’s room for that in the next volume.

Jeskai Angel: I enjoyed this volume, though it wasn’t quite as good as I remembered. A big part of that is difference between reading one vol. more or less on its own, versus reading a bunch of vols. together. I fell in love after reading Dendro vol. 1 and proceeded to devour all the other volumes released up to that point (six or seven, IIRC) in the space of a few weeks. That made the story a far more cohesive experience, and allowed me to go through the entire Franklin’s Game arc in a short time, rather than leaving the finale until whenever the LNC might come back and read vol. 5.

I appreciate the author’s / translator’s efforts to give different voices to each narrator. Ray doesn’t sound the same as Marie, who doesn’t sound the same as Hugo, who doesn’t sound the same as Rook, who doesn’t sound the same as Franklin…

This vol. was also more violent than I remembered, which raises one of the interesting aspects of the story. What one thinks of this book depends heavily on one’s response to the question at the heart of Infinite Dendrogram: just how “real” is it? Or, to use Franklin’s word, how “earnest” about it are we? Characters within the story already face this question, but I think vol. 4 challenges readers to a greater degree than the earlier books. Thus far, Ray’s enemies have mostly been monsters or tians, but now he faces other Masters. This casts the violence in a different light. It might be one thing to dismember one’s enemies in PvE…but does it mean something different to do so during PvP? Moreso than previous vols., this one confronts readers with how horrific such a realistic “game” might actually be. Is this a game in which people do things we may find distasteful but which aren’t all that meaningful? Or is it something more? And if it is, what does that mean about the characters’ actions? Or even our consumption of the story as readers?

Even without full-dive VR, we still have books, video games, & anime. Dendro invites us to ponder how we experience such things. Does it really matter how we feel about a novel’s story, or whether we steal from that shopkeeper in a game? (For the record, it does matter because everyone will call you THIEF the rest of the game and the shopkeeper is a Sith lord who will kill you with blasts of lightning.) When using our imaginations, how much is just acting or role-playing, and how much are we ourselves truly involved? Based on the Bible, there are clearly sins of the imagination (e.g., lust). I wonder if there could be, for lack of a better term, virtues or good works of the imagination.

stardf29: The “how realistic is the violence” question is interesting because at the start of the game, you’re able to choose whether to view the world as “realistic”, “CG”, or “anime-style” (with the ability to change it later with an item). Ray chooses to go with “realistic”, but it does make me wonder if those who chose CG or anime might feel less bothered by the violence.

Also, the whole idea of fighting Masters makes things interesting because of the knowledge that “killing” Masters only logs them out for a time, and that by default there are no pain settings, which might make some people less reserved about violence. I think this leads to the following moral question: is our moral revulsion to violence based on the actual act of violence itself, or on the consequences thereof? (And this can be applied to other similar moral dilemmas when experiencing fiction.)

2. What do you think of Professor Franklin?

Gaheret: Professor Franklin, apart from the Benjamin Franklin reference, seems like an “Island of Doctor Death” archetype, with an special ability called “Playing God”, “my boy” gentlemanly talk and evil laugh included. He is the main villain of this volume, and while I like to have a more intelectual villain, focused on strategy and manipulation of the rules (and I like Dr. Death-esque types), it seemed to me that in this case the interpretation was too over-the-top. The writer wandered between the awe and horror of unexplained creations and the “this is how he does it” kind of explanation, and wasn´t satisfying in those fields. Dr. Franklin seemed to me more like someone hacking the game than a player.

As a player, things were more interesting. I liked the “gamer with a grudge” archetype, as it is a very recognizable problem. I would have supported a full hacker twist (the rules of Infinite Deondogram basically allowing themselves to be cheated, not so much). As he does not think of the tians as people, it surprised me a lot that he was willing to talk with Elizabeth like he did (on the other hand, you simply cannot be a mad genius without explaining your plan beforehand to a captive, it is one of the conventions of fiction). I did like that he was aiding Hugo, and that his plan was in fact a clever alternative to a more costly and bloody invasion by the General of his Empire.

The reason behind the grudge against Ray wasn´t very convincing, but maybe Franklin was childish enough for that sort of thing. I like how this was introduced in an unrelated context, as part of the background, then happens to be important. I think it would have been better if we didn´t know the special instructions he gave concerning Ray, so that he being the only who can pass may have seemed like a coincidence at first, and then Franklin would have revealed that he had chosen him to embody the kingdom´s defeat.

So: I like this sort of villain, both in the gamer and in the mad scientific archetypes, yet I’m not full on board with how he was played out. Too much explanation of the hows, and the dialogue could have been much more vivid and funny.

stardf29: A few things about Franklin. First of all, his personality is absolutely the worst. He’s the type of person who absolutely cannot handle losing, and must go out of his way to one-up anyone that gets the better of him, even if it is a “newbie” like Ray. He’s very immature in that way, which just makes it even scarier that he actually has the capabilities to act on his whims, torturing those who go up against him with personalized monsters. And on top of that, he wants to send an entire country into despair so they don’t dare oppose Dryfe… yeah, he’s nasty. Which makes him work as a villain, if you ask me.

However, there are a few things curious about him. First of all, at one point which is from his perspective, he says that Ray is one of only a few people who are extremely earnest about Infinite Dendrogram… a group that also includes himself. So in some way, he considers Ray as similar to him. This seems to go against his seemingly villainous ways and how he doesn’t care about tian lives… so that’s a curious point.

Also, Hugo at one point mentions that he has some personal attachment to Franklin. Also, he refers to Franklin as “he”, in quotation marks… I think at this point, the gears in my head were beginning to turn with thoughts on who “Franklin” actually is in the real world…

Jeskai Angel: Franklin is a troll. He exemplifies the worst kind of trolling behaviors associated with the internet. His genuine cunning empowers his spite in obnoxious ways. However, if Dendro is just a game, then in the end Franklin is a munchkin roleplaying as a villain. But if Dendro is more than a game, then it’s arguable that the professor is, in a moral if not legal sense, a mass-murdering terrorist. This brings us back to that question of what we think of Dendro. How “earnest” we are changes whether Franklin is evil or just a jerk. I would also note that his Embryo being Pandemonium brings to mind hell as depicted in Milton’s Paradise Lost. It’s no coincidence that Franklin and Hugo have embryos that literally reference hell (Hugo of course deriving from Dante’s version of hell). Finally, I’m really curious to learn more about why Franklin groups himself with Hugo, Ray, and this King of Tartarus person, as people who truly take Dendro seriously. If that’s true, and in-game Franklin is still a murderous maniac…he has the potential to be really disturbing.

3. What do you think of the fight against King of Orchestras, Veldorbell?

Gaheret: Veldorbell was my favorite character of this volume. I think his reason to be a villain of the Empire was understandable, the music aspect was interesting and his real life was both intriguing and credible. I only miss there were even more musical references, it could have been a feast. That he was clearly an old man also added an interesting twist (I imagine most players to be teens or twenty-somethings, though this may be just ignorance on my part). His four musical powers were explained beforehand and were a good fit for him, and his project about making the rising of a hero into an opera reminded me of Christopher Lee´s Charlemagne. Marie Adler was also very interesting to watch, on the other hand, both because of her powers had been explained just before and her personal connection with Elizabeth S. Altar established in the previous volume. Also, while the tians being rational beings means that they should be treated as humans, I find characters with more of a gamer mentality to be more interesting than those with a real world mentality, even if the author sides with the second more than the first. The power to create characters painted on the bullets seems a bit of a strecht, but the power to disappear from the game, on the other hand, is both credible and very useful. This fight was the high point of the novel for me.

The aesthetics of the Musics of Bremen analogues were frightening enough, too. And “a melody worth to die for” is a very suggestive name.

stardf29: So this battle was mainly to show Marie off in battle. There’s not that much in the way of character development, and the opponent is one we only first see here, with a pretty basic motivation very similar to Marie’s. So all things considered, it’s a battle that is pretty much here just for our entertainment. Not that there is anything wrong with that; it’s a fun fight that shows just what kind of fighter Marie is.

Jeskai Angel: The battles are generally highlights of Dendro, and Marie vs. Veldorbell is no exception. The story pits Incredibly powerful fighters with thematically linked abilities that have logical limitations against each other. All the characters feel legitimately powerful and use their abilities cleverly, and yet none of them feel invincible. However strong they are, others just need to figure out the right trick, the right matchup, the right combo, the right opportunity, to defeat them. I really think Dendro has some of the most well-written, tactically deep fight scenes I’ve encountered.

So, I agree that Veldorbell came across like an underdeveloped composer version of Marie, I still thoroughly enjoyed their battle. Marie was cool in the the previous vol., but here she shines even brighter by going up against such strong enemies as Franklin and Veldorbell.

Music make you lose control.

4. What do you think of the fight between Rook and Hugo?

Gaheret: Rook and Hugo, on the other hand, had backgrounds which felt unrealistic to the extreme. Rook was English, called Holmes, and the orphan son of a wealthy Sherlock Holmes bloodline of detectives and a Irene Adler/Carmen Santiago bloodline of thieves (who didn´t keep what they had stolen). He is a wealthy teen who has literally an explosive trap in his mother´s office, who he had to deactivate to find her dying gift. I find the whole thing crazy: that sort of background can fit in a comedy, or in a superhero story, but I´d say the whole point of an ID kind of story is that the outside world is realistic, and a gamer cannot turn into a real-world Batman (and thus, he does it in the game). In a way, Rook´s story undermines the essential function of the two worlds.

We find in this game that “Hugo” is in fact the idealized portrait of a shining knight, used as an avatar by a French girl of a bourgeois family with a convoluted family life, and whose sister and mother both left the family house (Oscar François de Jarjeyes, anyone?). This was more interesting, but as it happened with Rook, the story of the lady in question was a little bit just too French for me. Her father was even an amateur painter. Rook seems frustrated with her because he can see she is a “wordler” with a similar personality to our protagonist, yet she participated in Franklin´s plan due to a misdirected sense of loyalty and to consequentialist reasoning.

As for the fight itself, the Divine Comedy power -as much as I like a reference to the Divine Comedy- made things unnecesarily complicated, with numbers and percentages everywhere, and the deductive ability that Rook displayed in two seconds was a bit hard to believe. I disliked the fight. That said, I did like the scenery: the frozen warriors, the giant robot, the fact that some could pass and some could not gave a very unique feeling to the setting.

So, not so much a fan of this one. I liked that the two characters interacted, though, and that two friends of Ray were in direct opposition as rivals. Rook´s tactics seem a little hideous to me, but then, this is a game. Both seem the kind of people that have unresolved issues in the real world they should address, though I like her better.

stardf29: So the big thing here is that we get to see what kind of backstories Rook and Hugo have. I do agree that Rook’s backstory is a bit ridiculous, but then again, we got some hints in vol. 2 that Shu (Ray’s brother) in real life is also quite ridiculous. So I didn’t feel it was quite that out-of-place. At any rate, his crazy skills aside, his backstory is pretty simplistic: enough to make you sympathize for him and understand what he’s trying to do in this world, but nothing too huge.

Hugo, or rather Yuri… It’s definitely interesting to learn her backstory, and that she is a girl in real life, so she’s doing some crossplaying here, but for her it’s more than just role-playing and she’s basically assumed Hugo as part of her identity. In that sense, her involvement in Franklin’s plan poses an interesting moral dilemma, especially with Ray involved. And on the flip side, we see how Rook sees her dilemma and rather dislikes her for it.

At any rate, this all was very interesting to learn about the two of them, and was probably the highlight of the volume for me. The battle was pretty fun, too, as we see their powers in action. (Though I can’t help but feel like Hugo’s power can be a bit too OP since it gives him an edge against practically any Master, but maybe there’s additional limitations on it?)

Jeskai Angel: Rook and Hugo’s fight was much more character-focused than the action-centric Marie-Veldorbell fight. The IRL identities of Rook and Hugo had a major effect on their duel. I found both of them interesting characters, so the duel worked for me. Now, regarding the family backgrounds of these two…

Infinite Dendrogram is steeped in historical, mythological, literary, and pop culture references. So we’ve got Hugo referencing Dante and Franklin referencing Milton. Marie is literally the protagonist of a shounen manga. Figaro is a nod to opera. Nemesis’s “Vengeance Is Mine” ability is a Christian reference (as are, I presume, the paladins’ Grand Cross ability and the presence of a seductive female character named Babylon). Meanwhile, Rook’s creatures all bear names of famous actresses (Marilyn Monroe, Audrey Hepburn, Elizabeth Taylor). The mithril in “Mithril Arms Slime” of course comes from Tolkien. The control AIs derive their names from Lewis Carroll. Ray’s mount shares its name with a famous TV horse. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

In this context, I can’t help but wonder if the presence of a “marshmallow-like balloon giant,” isn’t meant to call to mind a certain comedy film from the ‘80s. Similarly, it seems perfectly appropriate that at least some of the characters’ IRL identities would take inspiration from history or fiction. Considering how loaded with references this story is, it doesn’t bother me at all if Rook and Hugo have backgrounds straight out of novels. That’s just the kind of story the author is telling.

On a related note, is the “certain someone” Rook references a few times himself? Or some other person we don’t know about yet?

5. What do you think of Ray’s battle against the RSK?

Gaheret: Concerning the RSK, what I liked the most was the tians perspective of the story at the end, full of epic and memorable descriptions, listing all the meaningful moments. The fight itself felt too technical for me, though I appreciated the effort to keep things interesting and offer an opponent that was able to negate all the abilities which had been used so far. Having Professor Franklin there but not doing much was somewhat puzzling, too. That the princess was at stake and the Knights of the Guard were fighting gave everything an epic feeling, on the other hand. “I will have to punch you” or “I´m just mad” feels inadequate when the stakes are so high, and it seemed to me that Ray wasn´t as pressed as he would be given that actual lives (or so he believes) are at stake, including lives of innocent children and loved ones.

Jeskai Angel: Power creep is common in stories without a definite final boss. So, for example, in the old-school isekai The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, the White Witch is the final boss, so there can be a progression to enemy encounters and character development that build toward her ultimate defeat. There’s no need for another stronger enemy to come along, the story finishes. But in stories without an ultimate villain, you find enemies of increasingly absurd and arbitrary strength, of whom you’ve never heard before, endlessly coming out of the woodwork to pester Goku or Superman or whoever.

In light of all that, I love how the Ray vs. RSK fight dodged a lot of these power creep issues. The story has repeatedly emphasized that winning often hinges on understanding the abilities of one’s opponent. As Ray himself observes, the RSK isn’t just arbitrarily strong — it’s custom-designed to counteract abilities Franklin knows Ray has. Ray’s struggle to defeat the RSK is a battle of wits as much as a physical confrontation. The RSK is a challenge to Ray for logical reasons, and he defeats it for logical reasons (as opposed to randomly getting stronger because the plot demands it *cough*why would you think I’m talking about the Dragonball franchise? *cough*)

stardf29: Your comment on “power creep” makes me think of how many of my favorite RPG bosses are ones that aren’t just “like the last boss but stronger”, but who actually change up the gameplay in ways that force you to think carefully about how to beat them. For example, in Pokemon, normally your gym leader battles are one-on-one matches, but there have been a few times the battles are two-vs.-two matches instead, forcing you to consider a completely different set of strategies. Bosses that make you fight smarter, not harder, are great in RPGs, and in that sense the RSK makes for a great “boss fight”. I guess I have to give Franklin some credit; he might be terrible as a human being, but at least he provides for a great battle.

On that note, the way the RSK gets beaten is also amusingly very “video-game-esque”: the RSK is like a video game boss that is designed to be immune to all of your earlier abilities, making you have to make use of your most recently-learned abilities to beat it. In video games, this is a part of helping players learn how to use new abilities; you start with some simple applications of those abilities in a safe environment, then start increasing the challenge as they get to use the abilities for real, then throw in some twists that make them think of more creative ways to use those abilities, and finally present a final challenge as a last test of sorts, like a boss battle. Ray’s own process of learning new abilities is a bit different, but overall this RSK battle is a great showcase of both his new abilities and how in general Ray overcomes challenges with some ingenuity.

6. How did the anime adaptation of this arc compare with the book?

stardf29: Overall, because this volume was so focused on battles, the anime did an okay job of adapting it. (This is in complete contrast to vol. 3, which the anime cut a lot out of, particularly with Marie and Elizabeth.) The overall low production values do still hold it back, but at least the backstories are all there and the battles are reasonably adapted.

7. Final comments

Jeskai Angel: I think this volume showcases some of this series’s strengths while largely neglecting others. We get an abundance of exciting combat won through information and cleverness. We get more humor, more fun literary allusions, and more thought-provoking questions about reality, morality, and how we experience fiction / imagination. The story also continues to blend a hyper-realistic setting with video game elements in a surprisingly elegant way, like the video game-y manner in which Ray defeats the RSK that you mentioned. (Some series, Reincarnated as a Sword for example, are so heavy handed about having a world based on RPG mechanics that they inflict blunt-force trauma on the reader, and Dendro avoids that.) On the other hand, character / relationship development takes somewhat of a back seat in Dendro vol. 4. Likewise, this volume doesn’t provide much new worldbuilding, either.

Gaheret: For my part, I definitively liked some parts more than others. This was for the most part a long, video-game like fight with character development via flashbacks. There were evocative, powerful images, some interesting characters, fantasy politics, video game mechanics and the interesting moral and vital issues related to the ludos and wordlers were also there, though not at the spot for most of the time. I think that, given that in the last volume we came to know, throught Elizabeth S. Altar, that in this novel the tians are basically real people able to think and love, a fight exclusively among Masters seems like a relief. They are, after all, players protected from pain and death. The backgrounds of many of the most important characters have come to the light, so it seems that an exploration of their respective issues will make for interesting future volumes.

stardf29: I suppose I’ll just say here that over the course of these four volumes, there’s been lots of foreshadowing for some reveals that are likely to happen in the next volume. Some of those reveals are already known to the readers, namely how Marie is the Superior Killer, but Ray doesn’t know of it, and it’s very likely he’ll find out soon enough. At any rate, it’ll be interesting to see how those reveals play out as next volume reaches the climax of this arc.

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And that’s it for our discussion of Infinite Dendrogram, Vol. 4! If you read along with us, let us know of your thoughts in the comments!

We will be announcing our next Light Novel Club titles on June 30th! Here are some hints on what those titles are:

“Dragon Rage had no effect!”

Anime adaptation incoming!

#Light Novels #Infinite Dendrogram #BtT Light Novel Club #Articles #Author: stardf29 #Author: JeskaiAngel #Author: Gaheret

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beneaththetangles · 4 years ago

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My Light Novel Tier List! (May 2020 Edition)

As the leader of the Light Novel Club and an avid light novel reader, I naturally have to face the question: just how much do I like the novels I’ve read? And to answer that question, why not do the hottest thing on the Internet for ranking how much you like stuff: a tier list?

So I found an up-to-date tier list maker for light novels released in English, and rather than just fill it out normally, I decided to livestream myself as I filled it out. Here’s the video of my live ranking of all the light novels I’ve read (and yes, that means you get to hear my voice):

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/624643492?t=

And if this video is a “too long; didn’t watch” for you, here’s the final tier list image. Each tier has a sub-tier for titles that I’ve only read one volume of since I’m generally not quite as sure about how much I like a title until I’ve read at least two volumes. (Exceptions are for titles that only ever had one volume released in English with no plans for more volumes.) Also, I pretty much like everything on this list aside from the “dropped” list, and even the titles in the “dropped” list aren’t necessarily bad; some of them I think are actually quite good, and I just didn’t feel like continuing with them for one reason or another.

Because letter grades are so last decade.

If you’re wondering about why I ranked a particular title where I did and don’t feel like going through the video for my explanation, leave a comment and I’ll give my reasoning.

And if you want to make your own light novel tier list, you can do so here!

(Oh, and yes, I do now have a Twitch channel where I stream myself playing video games! Currently, I’m going through Persona 5 The Royal, with plans for other games to be added to the rotation, so follow me if you’re interested. I stream on Wednesdays and Sundays at 9pm ET.)

#Light Novels #Articles #Author: stardf29

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beneaththetangles · 5 years ago

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BtT Light Novel Club Chapter 19: Spice and Wolf, Vol. 2

We started the Light Novel Club with Spice and Wolf, and now we have returned to this classic title for more wheelin’ and dealin’ with a wolf goddess. Joining me are TWWK and Jeskai Angel as we pick apart volume 2…

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1. What are your overall thoughts about this volume?

TWWK: After a slow start, volume two hit me much the same as volume did, with an appreciation for Hasekura’s writing. There were of course moments of action, but most interesting aspects remain related to economics, trade, and culture, and for one with little interest in two of those three topics, I’ve found these novels to be spellbinding. I enjoyed volume two very much.

Jeskai Angel: The good: the first volume’s economic lectures were a bit tedious. For vol. 2, business dealings remained front and center, but this time the story did a much smoother job of weaving the economic ideas into the narrative. Also, I liked Holo and Norah. The rapid escalation of schemes and counter-schemes toward the end of the book was fun. And I like the mysterious, ambiguous way the presence of other supernatural forces besides Holo was worked into the world.

The bad: I remain uncomfortable with the negative depiction of the literal-Roman-Catholic-Church-in-all-but-name, but at least it wasn’t any worse than in the first book?

The ugly: ultimately, despite this volume’s good qualities, I enjoyed it even less than the first book (which I didn’t especially care for in the first place). As for why, well, I’ll talk about the protagonist under the next question.

stardf29: Overall, I thought this was a solid second volume. It started out a bit slow but once Lawrence finds himself in trouble and has to find his way out of it it got more interesting. The wrangling of economics is interesting enough but the main highlight continues to be the developing relationship between Lawrence and Holo.

2. What are your thoughts on the characters (old and new) in this volume?

Jeskai Angel: After reading the first volume, I felt somewhat ambivalent about Lawrence, but vol. 2 solidified my negative outlook toward him. Lawrence is greedy, arrogant, stubborn, selfish, and deceitful. There were signs of these traits in the previous book, but they are more glaring — and, indeed, central to the plot — this time around. Lawrence is a realistic (verging on downright cynical) depiction of how we humans often behave. He’s not entirely evil, having feeble benevolent instincts and a conscience that tends to be ignored, but it’s not enough for me like, respect, or enjoy reading about him. The most positive emotion I could muster toward him was pity, along the hope that if he survives this, maybe someday he’ll grow into a better person. Lawrence’s story is instructive but depressing, a little like stories in the Bible about people sinning. Maybe this pays off with character growth some volumes later, but at least for now, it’s not much fun.

On a more positive note, Holo remained entertaining. The author does a strong job of balancing her ancient wisdom and her youthful mischief. It’s also great seeing Holo endlessly outsmart pretty much everyone, validating her claim to being a wisewolf. Finally, Holo actually seemed more genuinely God-like in this volume. The way she forgives Lawrence and keeps offering him salvation, despite his stupidity and rejection of her and endless dependence on her, is the best part of the story.

Besides the two leads, characters from vol. 1 had no presence. This is logical, in some respects, given that it’s the story of a traveling merchant, but it’s also strange that the author would just dump all the time spent developing characters and setting for the first book. Given the emphasis on travel thus far, I wonder if the series continues with this episodic format, where each volume visits a new city with all new characters, or if the author eventually starts to weave other recurring characters into the tale.

Norah was the standout new character here, a dynamic combination of innocence and naivete with competence and perceptiveness. This actually made her the most unpredictable character in the book. I could never quite tell just how smart and capable versus inexperienced and trusting she really was, and thus couldn’t anticipate what she’d do.

TWWK: I agree with most of your assessments, Jeskai, regarding the characters—first volume included. I couldn’t remember any characters other than the dual protagonists, but the ones introduced in volume two were far more memorable, and particularly Norah. She’s lovable for sure, but because of her capability and somewhat mysterious past, and because of the double-crosses that have already occurred over two volumes, I always had this thought in the back of my mind: “I hope Norah doesn’t betray Lawrence and Holo, but I could possibly see it happening…”

Holo was a pretty awesome in this volume. Her character was rounded out more through this adventure, making it easier to root for her. I’m fact, I wonder if she’s too likeable heading into volume three, an almost-perfect character whose “imperfections” are quirks the readers enjoy.

Lawrence, though, is as imperfect as Jeskai says, but I like that about him. I don’t find anything about him too off-putting. Hasekura has crafted a protagonist who is smart and determined, but constantly learning or being reminded that he’s “not there yet.” Further, the nervousness he sometimes demonstrates adds a cuteness that paints him as a very anime male protagonist, even if the setting of this novel and atmosphere created is very different from the norm.

I like him, I think, for personal reasons as well. He reminds me quite of myself when I was younger—someone always scheming, who thinks of himself as having greater character than he does, and who is not quite as smart as he believes he is. There’s a great amount of pride in Lawrence, as previously mentioned, but he responds well in humility—and that’s a trait I find rather admirable (and lacking when I was the merchant’s age).

stardf29: To start with, given that the story seems to focus around Lawrence and Holo, it makes sense that they are the only returning characters here. That said, Norah definitely was quite a lot more interesting than you’d expect a one-off character to be, as you two have already described. It makes me wonder if, at this point, the author was planning to have her come back in a later volume.

Holo continues to be quite interesting and a lot of fun. As befitting of a deity, she always seems to be a step ahead of the humans around her, whether it be in her knowledge, power, or simply in her social interactions. I get the feeling that I’m starting to get to know what she’s like, but it still feels like there’s a lot more to her I don’t know. And that works well for this sort of “human deity” character. At the same time, we do see some more of her “human”-ness here, with the sense that she cares about Lawrence a lot and wants to be someone special to him.

And now for Lawrence. I still like him overall here as a flawed character, who’s willing to use underhanded tactics when in a pinch but is not so far gone as to not at least feel some guilt when doing so. I do have to agree that this is more of a feeling of “pity” than anything, seeing him do what he does simply because if he doesn’t, there’s basically no future for him. And I do hope that he can eventually find himself in a better position and then, perhaps, he will have a better moral compass to follow. So yeah, I guess I find that sort of character interesting enough to work for me as a main character, and as a counterpart to Holo.

3. Having Holo come to the rescue is a great thrill, but is it a good narrative choice?

Jeskai Angel: Probably not. Holo also really saved the day in vol. 1, but I think it felt quite a bit different because… A. it was the first volume and we hadn’t seen this story before, and… B. even if he wasn’t the lead solver of problems, Lawrence was less stupid and more proactive. There was a better balance between his contributions to the plot vs. those of Holo. The second volume recycled the plot of the first in major ways, but with Lawrence causing more of the problems and contributing less to the solutions, which I think was ultimately unsatisfying. I think another reason why “Holo saves the day” worked better in vol. 1 is that she was more mysterious back then. How smart is she, just what is she truly capable of…these were more murky issues in the first book. Similarly, the help she offered Lawrence was more unsolicited. Those factors helped keep the first volume from feeling like Lawrence just depends on Holo to solve all his problems. In contrast, Lawrence openly, repeatedly relies on Holo in the second volume, and her wisdom and powers have been much more clearly established, leaving less uncertainty about how things will play out.

“Now let me be clear,” I have no problem with a god or god-like character saving a protagonist; such can be an extremely satisfying plot development. For example, what if the narrative were presenting a message about how Lawrence needs to trust a god more instead of putting all his faith in his own abilities? That could be a perfectly fine message. But Holo and Lawrence both go out of their way to downplay Holo’s divinity, which undermines any chance of a “trust a higher power” type of moral. Likewise, there’s no hint of a cautionary lesson about the dangers of excessive self-reliance or some other such thing.

That leaves us with a protagonist who seems kind of cowardly and wimpy as he passively waits for his werewolf girlfriend to fix everything.

So in the end, I hesitate to say that “Having Holo come to the rescue” is a “bad” narrative decision, per se, but I think that choice was implemented in a less than satisfying way.

TWWK: I get what you’re saying, Jeskai, and I don’t disagree. Although you’re much harder on Lawrence’s character than I am, I’m still not real happy with the point, which was said on more than on occasion in volume two, that if things don’t work, it was okay cause Holo could just do everything herself anyway.

However, I do detect a humility in Lawrence that maybe you feel isn’t present. Two volumes have built him up into a good merchant, but one who is still young and relatively inexperienced, meaning that he’ll make good decisions most of the time and then some really bad decisions. When he’s done so, Lawrence has readily admitted what a bad situation he’s put himself in, but that pride he has (and maybe his youthfulness as well) leads him to have this gumption that maybe isn’t supported by reality, as well as forgetfulness to incorporate what he’s learned.

Ultimately, I wonder where the author is headed in all this. I hope that Lawrence matures and is able to both grow and bring something more than simple companionship into the relationship with Holo,while she is used as more than as a terrifyingly awesome deity with a cute side. I would love to see her help him grow so that he can actually save her at some point, and even better, that a situation arises where neither necessarily needs to save the other, but rather a more complicated situation develops that require solving. Two volumes in is both too early, I think, to expect that or to judge whether Holo’s wolf form is used too freely, but it’s not too early to question it.

Jeskai Angel: The same (or nearly the same) behavior can hold radically different meanings depending on context. Thus, Lawrence’s reliance on Holo could conceivably stem from positive sources (e.g. humility), or negative sources (e.g. cowardice). I would say I see how some of Lawrence’s actions have potential to be interpreted as signs of humility. I just didn’t feel like the narrative context gave me much justification for taking that more hopeful view.

stardf29: Holo is literally a deus ex machina. (I feel like I made that joke in the vol. 1 discussion too…)

Anyway, looking at it, it seems to me that the “drama” in Holo’s rescue isn’t actually in whether or not she will rescue Lawrence; that much definitely felt like a foregone conclusion. The drama was more in whether she would kill Norah in the process, which would weigh heavily on Lawrence. So in that sense, the rescue itself was pretty cool in its expectedness (like an OP isekai hero rushing in to save the day), but it still provided just a bit of drama, as it turns out.

(Jeskai Angel: Heh. I remember reading a review of some volume of Is It Wrong to Try to Pick Up Girls in a Dungeon? that complained that the outcome was too deus ex machina. Bear in mind this is a story where like half the supporting cast are literal gods. Forget the “ex machina part,” you can just stop at “deus.”)

4. What are your thoughts on the relationship between Lawrence and Holo as of this volume?

Jeskai Angel: I’m not really clear on the timeline for vols. 1-2, but it felt to me like Lawrence and Holo’s relationship was moving surprisingly quickly. Maybe I missed the indicators of time passing, but in my head, they went from total strangers to seriously caring about each other to open flirting in the space of a week, maybe two. Not saying this is necessarily a bad or completely unrealistic thing, just that it really surprised me. “That escalated quickly,” indeed.

One of the more interesting dimensions to the relationship is how Lawrence perceives Holo. At different points in this volume, he thinks about her as an ancient goddess, a spooky scary supernatural monster, a get out of jail free card, a business consultant, a friend, a woman, an obstacle, and so on. I can’t help but think of the numerous images the Bible uses to describe our relationship with God: he’s our father, king, shepherd, brother, master, high priest, savior, friend, bridegroom, sacrificial lamb, the original of which we are images, the vine from which we grow, and much more. It would be cool if the series didn’t downplay Holo’s deity so much and instead more openly embraced to the chance to explore the true complexities of human-divine relationships.

TWWK: Jeskai’s absolutely right in that the relationship took quite a jump in this volume—I quite liked it, though, for a couple of reasons. I get so tired of how anime (and television shows, especially in the past) skirts around relationship development, titillating viewers and readers with jumps in development before resetting or moving backwards again. It’s annoying and unrealistic. I think the development in volume two is authentic, though. The familiarity and love (romantic or otherwise) between these two has formed by the extent of their sacrifice for one another and shared experience of near-death and disastrous situations and through their growing affection for one another. It’s nice to see, and it allows room for all sorts of growth in future volumes—primarily, toward what it means for a normal man to have a relationship with a wolf goddess.

stardf29: Yeah, things definitely moved quickly for these two, though not so quickly that they’re already engaged/married or anything (I’ve seen my fair share of those in LNs). It’s definitely nice to get some movement in their relationship and not have to suffer through a lot of waffling about, and while it’s moving fast, their relationship still feels believable, at least as much as one can imagine given Holo’s fantastical nature. They’re closer, but there’s still some distance between them, as there should be.

And yes, there are definitely many facets to how Lawrence sees Holo, which is cool to see. At this moment, he still by and large has to rely on her, while understanding that he cannot control her, either. It’s fascinating to see, and again, this is the highlight of this series for me so far.

5. Do you think this series has any relevance for the current real-world economic crisis?

Jeskai Angel: Not really? I mean, there are timeless truths that come up, like the importance of information, but nothing that seemed to have especial relevance to current circumstances. Any attempt to make application from the story is complicated by the fact that many ideas about economics aren’t universally accepted truths. So do we accept all the author’s underlying assumptions? If you made a bunch of economists, businessmen, investors, etc., read this series, I’m confident you’d get a variety of responses disagreeing with various claims made in the story.

TWWK: Beyond the intricacies of economics, I do see a kind a parallel here in how an unexpected fallout affects people. There’s a tone of dread throughout the volume, particularly because of the weight upon Lawrence’s shoulders but also because of his partners in the deal, who were the first to bottom out. With so many losing their jobs right now and suffering so greatly, volume two offers a chance for us to perhaps feel along with them a bit, to experience the desperation that might be experiencing, and more importantly, then, to act and help others.

stardf29: Yeah, I asked this question because I saw how the main conflict came about because of a major event suddenly being cancelled and couldn’t help but think, “well now, that suddenly sounds very familiar.” I suppose it’s true that there’s no real “life lessons” or anything going on here; the characters by and large act in their own self-interest to keep themselves going rather than try to change anything on a greater scale, even resorting to an “illegal” activity like smuggling to get by.

But maybe that is the “lesson” here: by and large, people are going to be concerned about themselves first and foremost. They simply can’t afford to care about everyone else’s problems when their own livelihood is at stake. At most, some people might care about a few others’ plights, like how Lawrence wanted the plan to succeed for Norah’s sake, even if that was largely brought on by the guilt from involving her in the first place. All this is to say that, while we can talk about the greater picture, we have to at least understand that most people are worried about themselves and their own survival, and interact with them with that in mind.

6. What are your thoughts on the illustrations for the Spice and Wolf light novels?

Jeskai Angel: There were illustrations?!

^ accurate reflection of how much of an impact the illustrations had on my experience with the book

I honestly can’t remember any of the pictures, despite having finished reading the book just a few days ago. To be fair, I tend to glance over the illustrations in most of the light novels I read, so this isn’t really a knock on Spice & Wolf in particular, but still, nothing stood out enough that I even recall the pictures.

TWWK: (Bad anime fan, you!) Illustrations are part of what makes light novels special, and Spice and Wolf’s stand out, both positively and negatively. Holo is shown partially nude, and I imagine it’s the same throughout the series, which I think hampers the potential audience for a work that must be packaged as “mature” when the writing is mature in a different way. Imagine younger audiences reading about ECONOMICS? There’s a missed opportunity here.

Otherwise, while I appreciate how the simplicity of the artworks and colors used on the cover convey the same rustic feel of the rest of the novel, they feel quite amateurish. I wonder if the growth of the light novel industry has led to better artists being part of it, because this more classic series features some of the worst art I’ve seen. That said, I haven’t read as many light novels as you two have, so my survey is limited.

(Jeskai Angel: *accepts rebuke* Yes, Twwk-senpai. I’ll do better in the future, senpai.)

stardf29: Looking over the illustrations, and I have to agree that the art isn’t really all that much of a highlight here in this volume. The simplicity of the art style is one thing here, but I think what really hurts the art in this volume is that it is pretty much all just characters. For the most part they aren’t really doing anything, and as a result the illustrations for this book is basically a glorified portrait gallery. (As a side note, there are other light novels that have this issue.)

It’s a bit unfortunate because vol. 1 was actually a fair amount better about this. There were some really nice illustrations there that actually captured events and emotions: ones like Holo clinging to Lawrence that uses a nice three-panel structure, or Holo in wolf form making an attack in the underground sewers. The art style might be simplistic but the pictures themselves are dynamic and interesting and there just wasn’t that in this volume. Hopefully we can see more of the good illustrations in later volumes.

And while in general I didn’t really care for the illustrations this volume, I did like the one of Norah holding her sheepdog. It might have still been more or less a portrait but at least it portrayed a bond between the two of them, so that was pretty nice.

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Thanks for joining our discussion! You can post your own answers and thoughts about the volume in the comments.

On April 30th we will announce our next titles, but here are some clues for those titles…

The cry of Selene

“…suppose that five taxa have been clustered by UPGMA based on a matrix of genetic distances.”

See you then!

#Light Novels #Spice and Wolf #Ookami to Koushinryou #BtT Light Novel Club #Author: stardf29 #Author: TWWK #Author: JeskaiAngel

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beneaththetangles · 5 years ago

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BtT Light Novel Club Chapter 17: Infinite Dendrogram, Vol. 3!

It’s time to dive yet again into the world of Infinite Dendrogram! While the anime adaptation may not have won us over, the original light novels still look to be great, so in we go to volume 3! (By the way, if you have only been watching the anime adaptation, as of the time of posting, the adaptation has stopped just before reaching the material in this volume, so everything here is still spoilers.)

Before we begin the discussion: This novel can basically be divided into two parts: the first part features the “main story” from Ray’s perspective, and the second part features some side stories from other characters’ perspectives. As such, the questions will be split accordingly.

We have a bit bigger of a discussion group this time around: @jeskaiangel and @gaheret are both joining me this time!

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What are your overall thoughts on the main story of the volume?

Jeskai Angel: The first half of this book is basically one big prologue to the next volume — I wonder if it should have just been numbered vol. 2.5 instead of 3. It deals with the aftermath of the Gouz-Maise showdown in the previous volume, and then sets the stage for things to come. Compared to the first couple volumes, the pace is a lot slower and the stakes are much lower. In the Xunyu-Figgy fight it didn’t really make much difference who won, unlike the climactic confrontations with Gardrandra and Gouz-Maise where a lot of lives (albeit tians) were on the line. I don’t hate this part of the book, but I don’t really love it either. It’s fun enough, but it also felt like the Xunyu-Figgy fight was just a needlessly drawn out plot device contrived to provide opportunities for foreshadowing (of which there is a TON).

stardf29: Yeah, I definitely agree that there’s not really anything significant happening and that all this is basically a huge prologue. (I mean, I did say I had trouble thinking of questions, so…) The fights are a nice diversion and a highlight of the battle system outside of what Ray and co. would likely be involved with (and should make for decent anime material for the action fans), but it’s definitely not the high point of Dendrogram.

Gaheret: For my part, I liked the main story, and will go on reading. I find the wordlers-ludos dilemma a quite difficult one, and also quite compelling. Not having read the previous two volumes or having any experience as a gamer meant that everything was quite new to me, yet it managed to give me an enjoyable time. I had to rely on my memories of Stephenson´s “REAMDE” at first, but everything (Masters, kingdoms and geopolitics, monsters, tians, powers, jobs, embryos, ultimate movements, levels of power, money, consequences of dying, death penalty, statistics, interactions, time, tournaments) was explained quite clearly and organically.

I liked the personalities of the main characters (Ray, Nemesis, Hugo, Marie, Shu), and even the minor ones have distinct voices. The international aspect of the VRMMORPG was very interesting for me, too. The focus of the characters who are players on appaerance and theatrics, and often roleplaying, is to be expected given the concept and was a very interesting aspect of it all. As people can change how they look and focus on the impression they want to give, they are for the most part idealized (and creative) versions of themselves. I was in the theatre club in University, and have participated in some roleplaying games and events, so the psychology of the performers is an aspect which I´m definitively interested in.

It is mentioned, for example, that Ray´s brother is a rich NEET in real life, while he himself knows in his head, but rejects in his heart, that this is a game. Certainly, to have a young prince of the Hermit Kingdom, seemingly a conscious and free personal being, ill from a plague with could kill him for good, or a child-murdering cult like the one described, could make it difficult to log out and, say, go to work or do homework. As for the tournament itself reminded me of Boku no Hero Academia, which I find to be a good thing.

This is truly half gamer, half isekai story, which means there are two contradictory logics for everyone involved. The fact there are ludos, “worldlers”, and even cults involed, and that the tians undoubtly have conscience means that there is something very interesting going on here from a philosophical and ethical point of view (torturing your enemies increases your Grudge ability? That´s kind of messed up). I found myself enjoying also the mysteries such as the real in-game status of Ray´s brother or that of Marie. I was astonished, in particular, for the level of detail devoted to the magic-technology explanation of the game mechanisms and the insights on the tian civilizations and societies, and the impact of the contemporary players in them.

In this volume, we start to see Hugo now as part of the Triangle of Wisdom, with plans to attack Altar, and we see his interactions with Ray given that. What are your thoughts on this?

Jeskai Angel: Ray is a weirdly / amusingly smart-and-dumb protagonist. Sometimes he proves quite perceptive and clever, and other times he’s painfully dense. I particularly noted instances of the latter in this volume, and one example of that is his dealings with Hugo. We the readers have meta reasons to expect Hugo to be important to the plot (his role in vol. 2, being a maiden’s master, etc.). I know Ray doesn’t have the benefit of our perspective, but he still comes across as strangely oblivious. Like, I don’t expect him to be so suspicious that he goes 1-v-1 in the middle of town, but couldn’t you be a little more observant / inquisitive when someone with a potentially suspicious (i.e. hostile) background starts saying / doing suspicious things?

stardf29: Ray’s obliviousness definitely is something. He’s definitely too trusting overall, but perhaps it’s that trust that starts to get to Hugo a bit.

Hugo’s side is more interesting to me, as he’s starting to wrestle with how he will soon be Ray’s enemy. I think that now that he’s actually gotten to interact with a Maiden’s Master like himself, but in Altar, he’s starting to realize how people might get hurt by the plan he’s part of. This is all still build-up right now but it definitely interested me in how it would play out later on.

Gaheret: I like good stories concerning friends at opposite sides of a conflict, such as Marvel´s Civil War. Someone who fights alongside you against a child murderer or an alien invasion might fight you when it comes to questions of what is the best here and now, and there may be legitimate ground for doubt. I think I would have liked to discover Hugo´s loyalties at the same time as Ray, too. I also find quite perplexing how he feels it morally necessary to give his friend a hint about something as important as an invasion, though perhaps knowing that this is a game is a part of it. But again, I have yet to read the second volume.

What do you think of Xunyu?

Jeskai Angel: Xunyu is weird and cool. Wiping out the bandits in the beginning, combined with showing all the deference from the court officials and even royalty, works quite well for establishing that this character is a big deal. Xunyu doesn’t seem to be strictly what we’d call “handicapped” (although I’m not really clear on that point), but she does rely on prosthetic limbs, which is a rather interesting touch to see in a video game, especially one that leans more fantasy than sci-fi. I also loved the hilarious confrontation where Ray mistakenly thinks Xunyu is kidnapping the ambassador, faces them down only to be nearly killed, but then Shu shows up, and the situation ends with Xunyu FLIRTING with Ray!

Tangent: I can’t help but wonder how Xunyu’s odd diction is represented in Japanese — that language doesn’t have upper / lower case letters like English, after all. I was also reminded of the way the easterners talk in the Cooking with Wild Game series; in that case, the translations deploy excessive / inappropriate commas to help convey the feeling that their diction is unusual.

stardf29: Yeah, Xunyu is an interesting one. Particularly once you find out who she is in real life (which is said in the premium-exclusive stories for this volume but not in the normal releases, so I probably shouldn’t go any further into that). She does have some fun interactions with Ray already and I want to see them “playing together” later on.

Gaheret: It is interesting how having to cope with inhuman abilities the human body is not exactly designed for apparently gives high-level players a somewhat inhuman instance. Xunyu, with her operistic behaviour, her violent, gory tactics, her implication in the politics of the Hermit Kingdom (it is very natural for tians to resent these immortal, theatrical, somewhat hedonistic strangers who play such important roles in their society, can avoid physical pain and achieve insurmountable powers in a few years, as the tian assassin narrator of the last story shows) and her monster-like appaerance, may be the most interesting case. It must require a lot of work to step into that role. At least, that cacogen-like way of talking seems to be a product of the talisman, not of her acting.

What do you think of Figaro?

Jeskai Angel: We already knew Figaro was powerful, so that comes as no surprise. What was more interesting to me was seeing how he’s buddies with Shu, and that’s more significant for what it says about Shu than about Figaro. Like, Figaro is super strong, best of the best. And Shu hangs out with him in animal costumes calling him “Figgy.” Especially considering that we also know Figaro is a solo player who doesn’t join parties, for Shu to pal around with him as he does implies something about Shu’s own status within Dendro (which has also been hinted at in other ways, of course). I also thought the reveal that Figaro’s embryo was his in-game avatar’s heart was pretty cool — we’ve heard that embryos can be nearly anything, but Figgy’s is the most creative, outside-the-box one we’ve learned about so far.

stardf29: Yeah, that is definitely the most unique Embryo yet. I’d wonder what kind of Embryo it is but we know that there are more types of Embryos than the ones we’ve been told of, and his may very well be one of those special types.

As for Figaro himself, one thing about him is that he’s one of the most “pure gamer” players we’ve seen so far. Given his dedication to solo play, such that he doesn’t get involved in the country’s wars, and only resolves the player-killer incident earlier because it intrudes on his dueling interests, he actually makes for a contrast with Ray, at least as far as we know.

And yes, it’s definitely quite telling that Shu is so close to Figaro. I’ll say that, as of reading this volume I pretty much had Shu’s identity figured out with all the clues, but since it is still technically a spoiler at this point, I’ll have to bear with it a bit longer…

Gaheret: I rooted for Figaro during the battle. Insanely powerful as he was, his powers had a more human vibe, and as a local champion against the high authority of an Empire, he was the underdog. The heart embryo seemed more integrated and organic than the multiple arms of his opponent, and as taking your enemy’s heart is a very ugly tactic, it was poetic justice that this turned out to be the case. Aesthetically, he being up against faster-tan-eye tentacular, lethal arms and a power that can extract organs, resist, then fight back was a satisfying experience. About his character, I got the sense that he is a veteran around Shu’s age, and more of a wordler.

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What are your general thoughts on the side stories in this volume?

Jeskai Angel: It’s a ton of fun and I enjoyed reading it much more than the first half. The second half of the book is a pair of shorter stories about what Ray’s party members Rook and Marie were up to back in vol. 2 while Ray was off doing the whole Gouz-Maise thing. They turn out to be surprisingly heartwarming tales, as Rook befriends a cowardly slime and Marie befriends a little girl. Each story provides some excellent character develop for its lead, and really helps sell me on Lucius / Nagisa, err, Rook / Marie, being realistic, relatable people (especially Marie!). It’s also cool seeing the author show off the ability to narrate for an extended period in voices besides Ray’s. The way Rook narrates his story feels different than how Ray narrates in the main story, and Marie’s narration is likewise different.

stardf29: I really like these sorts of side stories that look at another character’s perspective in any story, so these short stories are great.

Gaheret: To be frank, I’m not sure they are a good idea. I enjoyed Marie’s, but I think I would have enjoyed it more if it had happened as a part of the main story: the hints, maybe an encounter with Princess Elizabeth or the nobleman as the protagonist looks for clues about the Death Shadow, an indirect conversation where she reveals the reason why. That sort of thing. I think the sense of mystery about this kind of character is better served by evocation sometimes. It works for me in the case of Shu, for example.

The assassin and the escape artist.

So with this volume, we get the big reveal that Marie is actually the Superior Killer. What do you make of this reveal?

Jeskai Angel: First, Marie’s constant jokes and pop culture references were great. I’d forgotten what a strong narrator Marie is, and now I really want a whole volume told from her perspective. The main story has dropped a number of hints that there’s more to Marie than meets the eye, so a revelation was inevitable. Knowing what goes on vol. 4, I think it was smart of the author to place Marie’s big reveal here, where it can stand out and be exciting on its own, rather than get, err, overshadowed… (see what I did there?) by all the other big things occurring in the next book. The manner of the reveal is also satisfying. Marie’s story keeps teasing us with an escalating series of hints; it’s obvious something is up but the reader is still left a bit uncertain about where this is going, and it’s cool to see all the clues finally come together. One fun hint that jumped out at me this time, that I overlooked on my first read, was that Marie mentions that she used to publish a manga about a female journalist, and that’s what her Dendro character is based on. Later, Marie mentions that it was a shounen manga. And you blink and think, wait, what kind of shounen manga stars a female journalist? The switch to the tian assassin’s narrative POV was also used quite well, facilitating a suitably dramatic reveal — “I’m not using a high-rank job.” We confirm that Marie is indeed the Batman…err, the “Superior Killer,” and get the fun surprise of learning she holds the Superior Job Death Shadow (a super ninja-assassin). This volume really did save the best for last.

Gaheret: I suspected something like that (not specifically the Death Shadow/Superior Killer, but something of the sort) since she recognized the status of Shu. As strange as the tought of a girl wearing a suit and sunglasses in a medieval-like world is, I like Marie´s perspective, focused in the character she wants to roleplay, which is also significant for her as an artist, and a cool, idealized superhero (I didn´t connected this much with Rook or Rook´s story, I must confess). She is more of a “wordler” than Ray, and that is enjoyable in itself: she is acting, he is not, and she finds that interesting. Her decision not to tell Ray of her identity to keep the game interesting makes sense from a gamer perspective, but I wonder if Ray would think the same.

That said, her ironic distance makes me wonder sometimes, as well as the cold-blooded demeanor with which she lets the paralyed killer explode in flames after taunting him, and the conversation between her and the depressed nobleman. In the first case, she may have been protecting the princess, but even so. He was harmless now, and she points out how he could have been put in custody by the guard. Even if one doesn´t believe (against all evidence, at this point) that these are real people, to take life-or-death decisions while roleplaying cannot be helpful. It is a fine line to walk.

Jeskai Angel: I got serious Batman vibes from Marie. She’s got a secret identity, she metes out vigilante justice to street thugs while dressed in dark clothing, and when Marie left the assassin to get blown up by his own bomb, it reminded me of how Ra’s al Ghul dies in the movie Batman Begins (watch the scene at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJCxgt7Qb6k). Ra’s and Batman are fighting aboard an out of control train (which Ra’s set up) that’s about to crash. Ra’s taunts Batman about whether he’s willing to “do what’s necessary” and kill him. Batman answers “I won’t kill you, but I don’t have to save you.” Then he jumps out of the train, leaving Ra’s to experience a fiery crash of deadly flaming death. Is Marie morally obligated to save the man who is actively trying to murder the princess and her from his own bomb (a bomb he set off trying to kill her)? It’s an interesting dilemma, one I don’t know has a clear answer. How far does the idea of loving one’s enemies go?

Gaheret: That’s an interesting question. I would say that when you can save an enemy from a deadly threat without personal risk, not doing so is equivalent to actively killing him. That is, it would be moral when he is a credible and deadly threat to oneself (given her abilities, he is not), or others (maybe this protects the princess?), or a war operative warring against one’s people (as he commands an army, I would say Ra’s fits here). Just as one may shoot a person in those cases, provided that there are no other feasible means to stop him, one may let them burn or explode.

In a medieval world, perhaps it would be also legit as a mean of execution, where there are not functioning authorities (or at the authorities command). As was done with pirates on the sea.

What seems troubling, in this case, is that she explicitly notes that he would be taken care of by the authorities, were not for his stupid act. Plus, she is a player, so I don’t think she has a right to self-defense, if we consider him an intelligent being. But she may not consider him so, as he is an IA. In sum, this world is quite a paradox.

stardf29: If you ask me, the fact that there was an activated bomb in play is more than enough of a threat of danger that I would say that no one in Marie’s position was morally obligated to save that person. I would also say that, even given that players don’t “die” when they are killed, they still have some right to self-defense. After all, the effective 72-hour lockout can be very crippling, especially if there is a tian the player is trying to protect. In this case, Marie is trying to protect the princess, and being out for three days could result in serious danger to said princess–to say nothing of the chaos Prof. Franklin is about to wreak.

But yeah, I believe it is not selfish to prioritize self-protection over risking your life to save someone, if you are in a position where you can potentially save more people by remaining alive. There may be specific cases where someone should risk their lives, but in this case, given that the choice is between remaining alive to protect someone important to the country and risking her life to save a random criminal, I didn’t even see any sort of moral quandary for Marie here.

As for Marie’s reveal in general, it is easily the highlight for me here. Not just in how well it was executed overall, but also how we get to see her own story, how she got into Dendro and how she got interested in Ray.

One interesting thing about her is how her approach in the game seems to be role-playing a particular character of hers, that is largely different from herself in real life. I know this is a popular way for some people to play games: rather than treating it completely like just a game or playing as an extension of themselves, they play as a way of bringing a separate character to life. I think that fits nicely somewhere in between the pure “gamers” of the world and those like Ray who see the world as real.

What are your thoughts on Rook and his side story?

Jeskai Angel: I don’t recall Rook being the subject of as much foreshadowing as Marie, so it makes sense that his story doesn’t have the same kind of major reveal that Marie’s does. If anything, Rook’s story itself serves a vehicle for dropping clues that there are hidden depths to this character. Reading about Rook’s efforts to tame the Mithril Arms Slime, I was struck by how influential The Lord of the Rings is. Tolkien’s fictional metal, originally found only the Mines of Moria (Khazad-dûm to all our dwarven readers), has since turned up in a surprising number of other worlds (including, in this instance, a Japanese work). I wondered if Rook’s penchant for naming his creature after famous actresses is just a joke from the author that implies nothing about Rook himself, or if Rook the character is in-story choosing to name all his monsters after actresses. It was also amusing to be reminded that Rook really does take after Ray a little, in terms of being super smart and observant sometimes, but in other cases (e.g., “Catherine”) seeming oblivious to the weirdness obvious to everyone around him.

stardf29: Rook’s story is definitely fun to see how he goes about his taming work. Also, I am quite amused and curious about his fear of mice… That has to have an interesting backstory to it.

Jeskai Angel: Regarding Rook’s mouse incident, it’s interesting how Babi comforts him, and he says it reminds him of his mother. That feels like potentially a hint about why Rook ended up with the embryo that he did.

Gaheret: I usually do like stories about the bond between master and beast, but not in this case. I guess that when I hear «slime», I do not associate it with the wilderness, the animal life and the balance between the animal nature and the Master’s nature that make the proccess of taming so enjoyable. I’m not a fan of the pimp, neither as a concept nor as it played out here. I like Rook just OK.

What do you think of Elizabeth, the young escape artist princess?

Jeskai Angel: Elizabeth was fun, and I’m impressed at how the translation was able to convey that she speaks in a manner both childish and formal at once. The way she talked really sold me on the idea that this is a person raised as a prim and proper princess…who’s also still a young kid. I wonder how much of that is on the author vs. the translator.

stardf29: Elizabeth definitely seems like the sort of royal girl who feels constrained by her upbringing and responsibility and just wants to get away from it all for a bit. And we really do get a feel for just how “realistic” her character is. I bring that last point up because this week’s episode of the other VRMMO anime, Bofuri, had an example of what NPC sidequests would normally be like, with the NPC spouting pre-programmed lines even when they don’t quite match what actually happened. So yeah, that was a nice reminder of what games are generally like, and by contrast, how realistic Dendrogram is.

Gaheret: On the other hand, I found Elizabeth to be a very interesting character (even if the concept was a bit formulaic, as Marie herself notes). Aside from her being a tian, I like stories about family and royalty, which entails responsibility, danger and also a legacy, and the different traits of the three princesses are enjoyable, while the politics are complicated enough to make this interesting. I liked her better for coming back on her own after the fun. He being in danger made the story feel relevant and urgent.

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Thanks for joining us for our Light Novel Club discussion! Because of how this volume was, it ended up being mainly about the various characters, which I think is fine since Infinite Dendrogram has so many great characters. Let us know in the comments what you thought of these characters!

Next week, we will be announcing our next two titles, so look forward to that! Here’s a quick teaser of what our next titles will be: – Definitely doesn’t drink Dos Equis – Back to where it all started

See you next time!

#Light Novels #BtT Light Novel Club #Infinite Dendrogram #Articles #Author: stardf29 #Author: JeskaiAngel #Author: Gaharet

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beneaththetangles · 6 years ago

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And Our Next Light Novel Club Selection Is… Outbreak Company! (Vol. 1)

What can be more otaku than an isekai light novel? How about an isekai light novel about an otaku who has to spread otaku culture in another world? Outbreak Company had an anime adaptation back in 2013, and now the original light novels are being translated by J-Novel Club. Penned by Ichiro Sakaki, a prolific light novel author who wrote such works as Scrapped Princess and Chaika The Coffin Princess, Outbreak Company might seem on the surface to be a silly otaku-centric isekai romp, but there are some interesting things going on with this one…

Synopsis from J-Novel Club:

The year is 20XX, and Shinichi Kanou is a pretty typical otaku: he loves anime, manga, games, and light novels, but his devotion to the two-dimensional hasn’t always made him the most popular guy around. What he doesn’t know is that Japan has discovered a portal to another world in the vicinity of Mount Fuji. The people of the Eldant Empire, though, only have eyes for one of Japan’s traditional exports: pop culture. Enter Amutech, a purveyor of “general entertainment” that’s secretly run by the Japanese government. Shinichi lands a job as the company’s general manager. Now he finally has a chance to put his nerd know-how to good use spreading the otaku gospel in the Eldant Empire. And wait… he has to work with a half-elf maid, an empress, AND a female soldier to get the job done?

…wait a second, “spreading the otaku gospel”? Is there some kind of strange connection between this story and Christian evangelism? You will have to read it to find out, so pick up the ebook and join TWWK and I on April 26th for our discussion of this book!

#Light Novels #BtT Light Novel Club #Outbreak Company #Articles #Author: stardf29

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beneaththetangles · 6 years ago

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BtT Light Novel Club Chapter 9: Infinite Dendrogram Vol. 2

We had so much fun talking about Infinite Dendrogram Volume 1 that we had to dive in again with Volume 2! Things are getting serious too, so this is a great volume to read if you really want to get an idea of what this VRMMO story is all about. Join TWWK and me as we take a look at the next adventure of Ray and Nemesis…

(Click here to catch up with our discussion on volume 1.)

General Impressions

TWWK: As good as volume one was, I didn’t expect volume two to be this great—it really felt like the beginning of fulfillment of the potential laid out in volume one. The depth and complexity of the story began to be explored, and I felt like the author’s storytelling improved, too.

I was particularly impressed by how exciting the raid on the kidnappers was and how this quest and the introduction of Hugo helped to explore how and why this “game” in meaningful to Ray, and to us as readers.

stardf29: Yeah, this is definitely the volume where things get serious in many ways, as we see how playing the game affects Ray, for better or for worse. Since you brought him up, let’s talk about Hugo a bit. He’s a notable character in many ways, being both another Maiden owner and someone who belongs to the “enemy” (Dryfe), though he does help Ray for this sidequest. He’s a very interesting character in this way, and he goes to show that the people on the “enemy” side can in fact be more than just “enemies”.

TWWK: Hugo is an example of why I think the writing in this series has been so sharp—originally portrayed as a comedic character, he not only gets what I thought was the most exciting scene in the volume, but he’s used to deepen the theme involving the maiden players AND seems to be integral to the plot as an enemy. I loved all the layers here!

But his characterization made me consider something that does bother me—I still don’t really have a beat on Nemesis. I don’t have a strong feel for her personality and I have no idea what her role is. Is Nemesis a love interest? If so…kinda weird. And if not…then what is she? And because she’s just kind of there—really only a bit more than an object (she is a weapon after all), I don’t think the author earned the bonding feelings that he tried to pull out between Ray and Nemesis in the last portion of the volume.

stardf29: The question of what role Nemesis plays brings up a bigger question for me: what exactly are Maidens supposed to be? We now know that they appear for those who do not see Infinite Dendrogram as “just a game”, so how does that play into their human-like (and as far as we know, female) forms? In-universe, what are their roles to their respective Masters supposed to be? I think this mystery, and how it applies to Nemesis, is more interesting than the actual Ray and Nemesis relationship currently portrayed.

There’s definitely the possibility of Maidens being love interests; if they appear for those who don’t see ID as “just a game”, then that would only make it more likely that a given person with an attraction toward females would actually fall in love with a Maiden. I doubt that possibility has been overlooked by the “developers”, so… is it something they actually are going for, for some reason?

I should note, though, that given that Maidens are known to be almost all female, it’s not like Maidens have to be love interests; whether because their Master is female or not attracted to women or maybe they just don’t see their Maiden in that way; still, there does feel like there’s supposed to be some kind of close, genuine connection between a Master and a Maiden.

TWWK: That would be another surprise for me, albeit a pleasant one, of Nemesis is NOT meant to be some sort of love interest. We’re so trained to expect that from anime and anime-related properties, but if her role has more more depth than that, if she’s meant to express something about Ray and players like him, then that’s far more interesting.

On another note, man, I really liked the action in this volume. I continue to have the issue of not totally understanding the game dynamics since I’m just not a gamer—that makes parts of the novel inaccessible for me, but the author was still able to develop this sense of foreboding and then adrenaline and awesomeness during the fights. I was totally in.

In fact, the action scenes and much of the volume as a while reminded me of a favorite of mine: Game of Thrones. There was a real sense of evil lurking in these episodes, and danger as well, that recalls almost any episode of that series. And like the book series on which it’s based, this volume shifted points of view, which can be a nifty tool in leading the reader to differing perspectives if employed properly, which it was on these instances.

stardf29: I had kind of the opposite approach to the action scenes in that I generally find them hard to follow in written form, but the game aspects make things easier for me to follow. I do agree that the scripting of these action scenes is very good, and that makes me very excited for when they get adapted into anime form.

One of the more unusual parts of the book was Ray’s dream sequence, where we see some of Ray’s past, particularly involving Shu. It’s a very interesting look at how Ray became who he is, and also gives us a look at the kind of person his brother was.

Also, it’s interesting to see the boss monster that Ray defeated in the last volume actually interact with him in that scene.

And speaking of Shu, it was mentioned in the Vol. 1 discussion that Shu might have some particular reason to hide his real-life appearance in the game, and I think from this part I get the sense that he definitely has a big enough of a real-life presence that hiding his appearance would be a good idea…

TWWK: Ohhh, interesting…I hadn’t though much about Shu and who he is, besides knowing that something big is being hidden.

But that’s perhaps what I like best so far in this novel series—it’s well thought out. Well-crafted. I appreciate the planning that has gone into it, and the author has already built up such trust in me that I’m confident that later volumes will deliver on the promise of this one.

I’m also excited about exploring this idea of the game and the tians being “real.” It was thrilling for me to hear the enemies’ points of view, which were that of living, viable characters. Suddenly, their thoughts have so much more depth with the added layers of being game characters and then having this real quality to them. The stakes are not only higher for Ray and others of his type, but for me as the reader as well. And perhaps that, as much as anything, will keep me coming back for more.

An important detail we somehow forgot to mention: Ray spends most of the book with dog ears.

Deep Dive: No Longer Just A Game

stardf29: This makes for a good transition into the deep dive topic this time around. I want to look at the whole idea of the game of Infinite Dendrogram being “real”, both in the perception of Ray and others with Maidens, and in the design of the “game” itself. How does the “realness” of the game possibly hurt Ray and others? How might it help them? How real do you think you would see the game if you were playing it?

TWWK: It must be mentally, emotionally, and physically exhausting for Ray to play the game the way he does. I liken it to this: there are times in my life where people I care about are hurting, and those are typically not good days for me. Ray is seeing suffering to “people” he cares about in a world where the action and violence seems real. How stressful and discouraging must that be?

At the same time, we fight for those we care about. When I play games and I’m absorbed somewhat into that world, I care about the characters and want to fight for them. But if it feels 100% purely a game, like Super Smash Brothers, I don’t care that Mario got knocked into a pit. It’s not real and I have no connection. But if I did, like Ray does, I would fight tooth and nail for those people. I would force myself to become a better gamer.

I think if I did play the game in the realistic setting, and with the tians and embryos as real as they are, I would buy in to the realness of the game; I might struggle in separating game from reality.

stardf29: I’m gonna be honest: it was hard for me to get through that opening part depicting how those children were treated. I’m pretty sensitive to that stuff, and I actually had to force myself to think of them not just as fictional characters, but as “fiction within fiction”al characters (not sure how I can really put that).

I think it goes to show, though, what it feels like for Ray to be attached to these game characters as if they were real people, so it’s easier to sympathize with him.

TWWK: That was a tough scene, and unexpected. Violence to children is hard for me to watch, in any sense, in fiction (I was reminded of a particularly controversial episode of Fate/Zero). But I also think it really helped to establish what the series is going for, in giving that further meaning to Ray’s character and to raise the stakes for the reader, though like you, I’m kind of “all in” already I’m considering the characters I’m reading about as real.

stardf29: Another reason this topic interests me is that video games are normally considered a form of escapism, to get away from reality in some way. Playing a game that feels that real feels like it would go against that, at least on the surface. Then again, maybe there is something valuable in being able to live a second reality like Infinite Dendrogram where one may actually have the power to do things he/she wants to do in real life but cannot. It seems like that is ultimately what drives Ray at the end; he knows he will experience many unpleasant things but he also knows he has the power to potentially change things for the better.

TWWK: Well said.

stardf29: It’s an interesting challenge to the notion that escapism is only about avoiding reality; it can be used instead to experience a different reality than we’re normally able to, and process that in various ways.

In that way, I think if I were to play Infinite Dendrogram, I’d probably go out of my way to create a character very different from myself, and play things from a different perspective.

Though I probably would try not to get too wrapped into seeing things as real. I’d definitely set the visuals to anime-like; realistic visuals aren’t my thing.

TWWK: That’s a really interesting choice that the players make at the beginning, and says a lot about how you want to experience the world, if not also about the player him or herself. I used to participate in a lot of roleplay boards where writers basically collaborate to make a story together. I would often start out like you, trying something different, but it always hard to fight the urge to create a fully realized version of myself or someone I would admire. That leads me to think that I might go with realistic to more fully experience a reality I want, rather than one I might more enjoy.

stardf29: So as a final question, now that there’s evidence that a player’s type of Embryo is influenced by their personality, what kind of Embryo do you think you would have? For the record, the explained Embryo types are:

– Arms: Courageous, not afraid of getting hurt, hot-blooded – Guardian: Afraid of getting hurt, lonely, want someone to protect them – Castle: Introverted, cooperative, have an artisan’s temperament – Territory: Want control, hoard their stress, lone wolves (Chariot: no common personalities known) – Maiden: View the game as “real”; hybrid with another type

Based on those descriptors I’d definitely see myself with a Castle-type Embryo.

TWWK: I want to have the Maiden type, but as I was reading the descriptions as given in the light novel, I kind of cringed because I feel a little Guardian and a little Castle, for better or worse. If I had to choose one, I’m like you—I’d probably have a Castle-type Embryo.

stardf29: Theoretically, nothing’s stopping anyone from having a Maiden/Castle hybrid. And, of course, in-story no one gets to actually pick; for all I know I could boot up the game and find myself with an Arms-type that unveils my hidden aggressive side or something…

TWWK: The power of this game: it helps you more fully realize yourself!

You can buy the digital e-book for Infinite Dendrogram from J-Novel Club here. You can also preorder the physical paperbacks of Vol. 1 and 2 on Amazon, which will be officially released in September 2019.

#Light Novels #BtT Light Novel Club #Infinite Dendrogram #Articles #Author: stardf29 #Author: TWWK

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