#As for now JRRT remains the king

[fedonciadale]

Hello! I get really tired of non-asoiaf fans act like the series is just boobs and dragons and nihilism. I feel like they're wrongly judging the books for the show's flaws (and it seems to always be lotr stans for some reason? Like that series is amazing, why must they trash ours?) So I was wondering, what would you say are the true themes of the books? I don't think at all that Martin is a nihilist who enjoys miserable endings and hates love. Thank you.

Hi there!

As a LotR fan myself I feel called out. haha!

Well, jokes aside. I think that it is of course rubbish to judge a book by how it is done on television/in a movie. It should be obvious that D&D made ASOIAF to be about dragons, boobs and nihilism and that you can't judge the books by the adaptation.

There is one thing though where GRRM is certainly at a disadvantage - especially in regard to Tolkien. He himself said that he wanted to address some of the things he had problems with in LotR, the notorious quote about "Aragorn's tax policy" and therefore, sorry, not sorry, GRRM set the stage himself, the stage where he is compared with Tolkien.

And there is one thing you can say about Tolkien: His books might be shorter than ASOIAF but he finished them and with a satisfying ending as about everyone can agree on. Bittersweet in the best sense of the word.

So, GRRM has himself to blame for being compared to Tolkien. And as long as the books are unfinished, GRRM is going to fall short. It might well be that his ending is bittersweet in a good way, that it will be satisfying, that he will address the problem of resurrection and of everyday politics in a better way than Tolkien did. But he has yet to prove that!

I would actually argue that the whole character of the books is so different that any comparison is moot, but that is my opinion. And I would certainly not put them "against" each other. And in my experience LotR fans do not attack GoT? I mean experiences on tumblr can be very different, but apart from the occasional frustrated ASOIAF fan (and I'm one of them) who praises LotR they are not pitted against each other?

I actually happen to agree with you that GRRM is not a nihilist and you can argue in favour of that. You can quote that he himself said that he wants to write about the "human heart in conflict with itself" and he has already done that and done that very well. But as long as we don't have his ending (not an ending, but his ending) we can make and argument and even a solid argument but the ultimate proof is not to be had.

I think that every one of the main characters has a main important theme: Love and Duty for Jon, Mercy and Revenge for Arya, Selfishness and Altruism for Dany, Use and Abuse of Power for Sansa, Loyalty and Betrayal for Jaime and so on. And the way GRRM approaches that is not nihilistic, there is hope (like when Eddard said: What if we prevail?) but it's not as visible as in LotR. No flower crown on the head of a fallen statue of a king touched by a single ray of sunshine in GRRM's world. That does not make it better or worse. It makes it different.

But it also means that many people do not see it. Many people do not see that Ned's "The man who passes the sentence should swing the sword" is a parallel to Gandalf's: "Many who live deserve death and many who die deserves life? Can you give it to them? Then don't be so rash in condemning them to die" (quoting from memory here).

So, there is humanity and hope in ASOIAF: I think that all the people who were saved or spared by the Starks will have a severe impact on the story (not necessarily all of them good, because that would be very unlike GRRM: Good actions don't always have good consequences, but they have good consequences often enough that it makes a difference if people are good!). I think the Stark legacy of good rule will prevail but as for now we don't see that yet.

I mean the last book will be called "A dream of Spring" which should tell you all, but before GRRM does not finish the books, you can argue all you want. The ultimate proof that it is not a nihilistic grimdark novel nobody will want to read in fifty years is just not there. And that's on GRRM.

Sorry, not sorry. JRRT cannot be dethroned by a man who set out to write better and didn't accomplish the most basic thing of all - which is finishing his story, so that it can be judged as a whole. LotR is still one of the most read books in the world and it will continue to be read.

Just being "promising" is not enough to pass the exam.

And that he let D&D finish the story in such a frustrating way does not help his case. I mean it's not necessarily how GoT ended it is mostly how it was told, and season 7 and 8 were a waste of money.

So, I would say: O.k. GRRM I believe in you: I believe that ASOIAF is not just dragons and boobs and grimdark story telling:

Do me a favour and PROVE ME RIGHT!

Thanks for the ask!

[lesbiansforboromir]

What's ur take on th amazon prime middle earth show atm? Thoughts, feelings about the new rumours/news?

I was going a little spare about it in my discord server, let me try and tie all these thoughts down for you. Also to be CLEAR... I'm going to pretend that these 'leaks' are things I believe will happen rather than published by TOR ie, dubious at best. Here's a link to the article anon's talking about.

So, first off, the tolkien estate is apparently happy with the production... I have to file this under what will become quite a well populated reaction box 'that sounds good but it makes me nervous also'. I'm very glad Priscilla likes it though, that's still good to know.

Next, Amazon has SOME Silm and unfinished tales rights... This probably worries the silm fandom far more than it worries me, but in terms of the production itself it seems very positive to me. I mean god... how else would they have... made the show... Like they'd have had to rename kings and straight up ignore plot points without it. AND YET I am actually still surprised. I suppose I shouldn't be, there's quite a lot of moving and shaking since Christopher died and I was always pretty sure he was the one keeping it all under lock and key. And considering the Nature of Middle Earth book is coming out now too with rumoured withheld letters and such, it seems the remaining holders are more lenient with the property rights.

There's a hilarious section where the article is like 'hm it might be that the show will span multiple sections of time' and I'm like well... it'll be a fuckin narrow as hell show if it doesn't... I dont think a single narrative ends in less than 100 years. The part about the dwarves, elves and humans having their own separate production units is interesting but I dont think I know enough about how tv making works to know what that says about the show. But what TOR suggests in the article, an anthology of POV's, would be pretty cool and was more in line with what I originally wanted it to look like. Did this make me a LEETLE excited? Maybe, but I can't acknowledge that yet.

The fake production team shooting fake shots is just funny, like you're using the money this way? Please... it wont be so bad if we see leaked images of shooting I promise I swear.

Lenny Henry as a harfoot is like... LIKE... this is definitely very excellent. I'm a little concerned that all the actors of colour will be relegated to just the hobbits, but I'm actually just a little too excited about seeing wandering hobbits and ALSO HAHA! Now @penny-anna has to watch the show >:3

Tom Budge... who WAS celebrimbor... Like.. I have been umming and arring over this, I go from 'god no' to '.. eh? maybe I see your point?' but in general I still feel like there were more dramatic and enigmatic choices that could have been made for casting such a character. However celebrimbor should have a moustache I think, so, maybe. Still not psyched about this vision of Celebrimbor as far as casting goes.

this is just straight up terrifying. Although it's still funny to me how the entire tolkien mega community saw JRRT say 'actually I was wrong the first time, orcs aren't elves they're corrupted early humans' and they all replied with the [I respect the council has made a decision nick fury.meme] But no seriously... what the fuck, go back to the sex having.

It's absolutely gruelling to me that the major elf debate we're at is 'can elves have short hair', like ok... I do want elves with short hair but that is not the major elf portrayal issue I want discussed here boys. When I say 'can elves be not-white' I want you to say 'yes, here they are'. Still, I do want to see elves with short hair.

And finally absolutely DELIGHTED to know I wont have to suffer Annatar in season 1. I get respite before the angbang bloggers descend on the tags.

IN GENERAL (still pretending I believe all these leaks, which I don't) This is all... encouraging... some of it's worrying and I'm jumpy about it but I would.. I would like an anthology... with a raft of perspectives, timelines and plots... this is what I was wanting when they talked about 'rivalling game of thrones' so... now we gotta wait for mid-2022 I guess... God I think Alecto the Ninth is coming out then too, I'm so beset.

[kendrixtermina]

Further reactions to "The book of lost tales":

I appreciate that Idril canonically wears armor and does swordfighting.

I feel like I can actually imagine adult!Idril much better now like in armor and with open hair, distraught but ready to fight while babby Earendil does not yet realize the danger...

My first thought is that Earendil was probably cute in that baby chainmail. My second thought is OUCH, Idril and Tuor always made sure their growing baby had fitting chainmail cause they felt the apocalypse might get them at any moment. Imagine that, imagine them having the baby armor fitted every year or so :(

Its fun how much of the basic structure already exists but most of what you'd consider the main characters doesn't exist or is scattered across various minor roles The only Prince anywhere in sight is Turgon - Except for Team Doriath, theyre all accounted for. I suppose Maeglin is kinda there in name only with vaguely the same role & motivation, but looks personality and background all did a 180 since. Luthien is still pretty much "princesd classic" at this point, not quite the fearless go-getter from the final version - markedly this version tells Beren that she doesnt want to wander in the wilderness with him whereas the final one says she doesnt care and its Beren still wants to get the shiny so as not to ask this of her and also for his honor.

I mean in the finished version Id consider the 3rd and 4th gen royals to be the main characters (well, alobgside Team Doriath and the varioud human heroes) and theyre hardly here. Imagine the silm with no Finrod!

Feanor had no affiliation with the royal family whatsoever, and is also generally less super. He's just the guy who won the jewelsmithing competition, not the inventor of the whole discipline. Still seems to have been envisionad as a respected member of the community who gets called to the palace for crisis meetings and is listened to when he stsrts giving speeches. From the first he already has the backstory of going off the deep end (or at least growing disillusioned with Valinor) after a family member is killed by Melkor and theyre still the first to die, but its just some other rando unrelated to the royals

The situation regarding the humans is different - instead of Melkor leaking their existence, its Manwe who explains that the other continents were supposed to be for them eventually. So Feanor goes off on a tirade about weak puny mortals comes off as a more of a jerk unlike in the final version where Melkor barely knew about the humans and described them to the Noldor as a threat. On the other hand in this one, also very much unlike in the finished product, Melkor dupes even Manwe into being unfair to the elves as a whole. In this the final version is a definite improvement, both Feanor and the Valar come off as a lot more sympathetic and though still deceived he's partially right in some things at least, so you have more of a genuine tragedy rather than a simple feud

There is something to the idea of Commoner!Feanor tho. I guess some of this survived in his nomadic explorer lifestyle and how both his wife and mother (who arent mentioned here) eventually were the ones to get that background of being not especially pretty ladies who are not from the nobility but got renown, respect and acclaim for their unique talent and contribution to society, with each having invented things and Nerdanel also being renowed for her wisdom. Hes sort of an odysseus-like Figure in that sense. I suppose later developements necesitated that Maedhros & co. have an army not just a band of thieves, which means they needed to be nobles/lords. That said this being a society where artisans are very respected and half the lords have scholarly/artistic pursuits going, the gap was probably not as big to begin with as it might have been in say, medieval England. Esoecially since Nerdanel's father had been given special honor by one of the local deities and that the social order might have been a very recent thing in Miriel's time. One might speculate that the first generation of Lords started out as warriors during the great journey, or perhaps just Finwe's friend group.

Also found that bit intetesting where the Valar have to deal with the remaining political tensions and effects of Melkor's lies on the remaining population in Valinor... - i guess with the change of framing device it was less likely for news of something like this to reach Beleriand. That, or the existence of Finarfin and his repentance made this go smoother this over in later cannon

Turgon's go-down-with-the-ship moment reaaly got to me. Im half tempted to write a fic where his wife, siblings and dad glomp him on arrival in Mandos. I dont care that none of them exists yet in this continuity i want Turgon to get hugs

I love all the additional Detail that got compressed out in the shift from fairytale-ish to pseudohistoric style especially all the various Valinor magic insofofar as it is compatible with the final version - particularly love the idea of the connection between the lamps and the trees that is now integrated into my headcanon forever

Its actually explained what the doors of night are

If I had not already read unfinished tales or volumes X to XII where this is also apparent, this is where I would say: Ah so the Valar were supposed to be flawed characters. Manwe has an actual arc; by the time he sends Gandalf he finally "got" it. I think in the published silm the little arcs of Ulmo and Manwe are mostly just lost in compression/ less apparent when only some of the relevant scenes got in but not all

It occurred to me way too late that the "BG" chars are the most consistent because theyre at the start and most stories are written from beginning to end. Finwe doesnt get a dedicated paragraph of explicit description until HoME X but my takeaway was that he's described pretty much like I always imagined him anyways/ same vibe I always got from him... charismatic, thoughtful, enthusiastic, sanguine temperament, brave in a pinch but at times lets his judgement be clouded by personal sentiment (though that last bit is more apparent/salient as a character flaw once he became the father of a certain Problem Child) ...i guess this would be a result of jrrt having had a consistent idea of him in his head for a long time.

This means Finwe's still alive at the time of the exodus which is just fun to see/interesting to know... Interestingly he sort of gets what later would be Finarfin's part of ineffectually telling everxone to please chill and think it over first while Feanor simply shouts louder (which is consistent with his actions before the sword incident in later canon where he initially spoke out against the suspiciozs regarding the Valar) - but its not exactly the same, he's more active than Finarfin later in that when "chillax" availed nothing he said that then at least they should talk with the other Kings and Manwe to leave with their blessing and get help leaving (This seems like it would have been the clusterfuck preventing million dollar suggestion in the universe where Feanor is related to him and values him) but when even that falls on death ears he decides that he "would not be parted from his people" and went to run the preparations. I find it interesting that the motivation is sentiment/attachment (even phrased as "he would not be parted from [his people]" same words/ expression as is later used for the formenos situation), not explicitly obligation as it later is for Fingolfin (who had promised to follow Feanor and didnt want to leave his subjects at the mercy of Feanor's recklessness )

Speaking of problem children. It seems the sons of Feanor were the Kaworu Nagisa of the Silmarillion in that originally all they do is show up at some point and kill Dior as an episodic villain-of-the-week. And then, it seems their role got bigger in each continuity/rewrite... probably has something to do with the Silmarils ending up in the title later making it in the sense their story that ends and begins with them. They have zero characterization beyond "fierce and wild" at this point, though in what teetsy bits there is we already have the idea that Maedhros is the leader and Curufin is the smart one/shemer/sweet-talker, though not the bit where Maedhros (or Maglor, or anyone really) is "the nice one". Which I guess explains why "Maglor" sounds like such a stereotypical villain name.

"The Ruin of Doriath" was purportedly the patchworkiest bit of the finished product, but I never noticed and it actually left quite an impression of me upon first reading, the visual of Melian sitting there with Thingol's corpse in her arms contemplating everything thinking back to how they met... she had the knowledge to warn him not to doom himself but couldnt get him to understand it because he doesnt see the world as she does.... After reading this though I wish there was a 'dynamic' rendition that combined all the best bits like, youd have to adapt it to the later canon's rendition of the dwarves, have Nargothrond exist etc. But i mean that just makes Finrod another dead/doomed relative of Thingol's whom bling cannot truly replace, like Luthien and Turin. In the Silmarillion you could easily read it as just an "honoured guest treatment" but here and in unfinished tales I get the impression that Thingol actually did see Turin as a son.

Already you see the idea of trying to make the stories all interconnected but there is less than there will be (the human heroes aren't related yet and there is basically no Nargothrond, which is later a common thread for many of the stories - a prototype shows up in the 'Tale of Turambar' tho complete with half baked prototypes of Orodreth and Finduillas

O boi im not even through yet