#Anyway this was a really fun read y'all do continue to rant and rave it's very stimulating to my braincells

[superkooku]

Look, this is us filling the Asclepius tag with ramblings :

Irl I'm super giddy right now !!

Honestly I was hoping this post would eventually reach someone else who wanted to ramble about Asclepius 🤣. Because oh boy ! These past few months I realized that he's actually very interesting but I couldn't find the opportunity to really start a discussion about him :3

Don't worry about the initial context, this post contains most of it. @kill-me-with-a-spoon and I began this in a comment section of this post :

I need a "read more" section because this is gonna be a long one.

First of all, calling Asclepius a crimebag is hilariously fitting. Not only did this man resurrect people and got punished for it, he casually does it again to a random woman. Not Coronis, not someone he knows, just a chick that the doctors decapitated to get some worm out and he was so exasperated by their stupid mistake that he just brought her back to life.

He's a criminal AND a recidivist. And Zeus just gave up at this point I think, because he was only punished once. He reminds me of Robin Hood in a way, an unrepentant criminal who helps people around him against an oppressive system.

Another figure he reminds me of is Prometheus. Seriously, I feel like Asclepius and Prometheus would be very good friends if they met, because they share a very similar philosophy of wanting to help mortals, being punished for it and still wanting to do it despite the risks, to push the limit and ultimately bring a wonderful gift to humanity, being heating and medicine. THAT and issues with Zeus 😂. He punished both of them for kinda the same reason. Maybe his grandson reminded him of Prometheus.

Now I'll try coming back to your points because there's so many things to say. I'll try respecting the order to hopefully make it easier.

You mentioned his birth and honestly it's so fascinating. Because, from the get-go, Asclepius cheats death, he runs away from it, he was supposed to die but thanks to Apollo's dad radar, he got saved.

Ok I know those are his ordinary god powers, but to me Apollo 100% has a sixth sense specifically warning him when his kids are in danger. I mean, look at what he said in the picture you sent !! It's clearly his fatherly instinct that drove him to do that, to save his innocent offspring from Coronis' punishment. And yeah, if he hesitated any longer, he would've lost one of humanity's biggest helpers, but most importantly his own son. And I feel like he would've hated himself for it.

This kinda reminds me of Zeus saving baby Dionysus once Semele died, also burnt, but because of his real godly form. It's a powerful way to connect Zeus and Apollo too.

Tying this unusual birth to his future activities is definitely a clever approach. Asclepius seems to fear death, even more than the average Greek. But, contrary so Sisyphus, he doesn't selfishly try to cheat his own way out of the Underworld. Or to extend his youth. Quite the contrary. He uses it to help his fellow mortals, exposing himself directly.

I'll jump to the end of your post to talk about his altruism but I'll come back to previous points. Asclepius committed a very unique kind of hubris. It's not a "I'm better than the gods" thing but a "I'm more helpful than the gods". He saw that none of them, including his own father, went out of their way to undo death. So he did it. And again, he didn't just go and resurrect Coronis or Phlegyas or any family member. I feel like he was given missions, given how random the people on the list are. And he dutifully accepted them. Like a god being prayed to, even by an Olympian deity like Artemis ! And THAT pushed another limit.

The random woman myth is so important because it shows that Asclepius doesn't only resurrect kings and princes, but also regular people. He didn't seek glory or anything, he just did his best to achieve his goals of helping those around him.

You worded everything about the Apollonian family line and the egregious pursuit of curing death so well !!

Even if it wasn't explicitly said, it would still be so blatant that Asclepius was raised by his father, because they have similar tendencies. They have this same stubborn drive to act on their principles, even if it involves disobeying other gods.

There's also this negative relationship with death, wanting to preserve the life around them and grieving when they can't (except Asclepius didn't accept this last part and went on to undo it).

Plus some gremlin energy and the staff from uncle Hermes 😂. Hermes was also said to help Apollo save him and since he collects human souls, he'd 100% be there in his birth to have Coronis AND in Asclepius' death.

Speaking of gods, yes he had godly support, through Athena and Artemis. Heck, even what you said about Zeus tolerating occasional resurrections fits because otherwise, Asclepius would be dead before even trying.

That whole thing about oppression and death is spot on. Coming back to Hippolytus, his demise was very unfair. A result of Aphrodite's spite in front of his indifference, Phaedra's maddening love and Theseus being Theseus. Asclepius seized the opportunity to restore his life and stolen youth. Hippolytus doesn't die again afterwards, at least not from some extraordinary reason. He probably passed from natural causes at a natural age.

But then comes the money thing. It's so interesting because it brings another nuance to his character. The desire and need for money is purely human, gods don't need it. He's only a mortal and this is a proof of it. Why was he "enthralled" by money ? He doesn't seem specially greedy. Maybe it's because he needed it to maintain equipment, buy more resources so he can do his job even better. Maybe it's because he isn't said to be paid anything for helping people, and even if he's a prince, he didn't live with Phlegyas (Coronis' dad) but in the fields with Chiron. So maybe he wanted better life conditions. Or maybe money to pass on. Idk, honestly.

There's so much more stuff to say but I'll let you with this. You're welcome (and encouraged) to answer any time you want. I'll probably post more about Asclepius in the future, so tell me if you want to be tagged.

Who did Asclepius resurrect ?

A couple days ago, I discussed the idea of mortals defeating gods with @kill-me-with-a-spoon on a comment section of my "thoughts on Epic" post.

We talked about Diomedes and Perseus briefly, but then a third example came in : Asclepius.

And I find this specific mention interesting because I didn't think about it but it kinda makes sense 😂

He didn't defeat any god like the two former heroes, that being physically overwhelming them. Instead, he simply "cures" death, thus Thanatos' doing. Not only his, but the Fates' too considering they cut the thread of life. And he meddled with Hades' realm, something that he hated and we know how that ended.

(Hades hating doctors will never not be funny)

I made some research on him for personal projects and so I want to use it right now for personal ramblings about who exactly Asclepius resurrected.

@kill-me-with-a-spoon was pointing out that if, by technicality, he didn't interfere with Hades' domain if souls he resurrected didn't cross the Styx. And I've got to say, I think he did.

Also, I completely agree with the fact that they're still killable. They won't die from the same cause since Asclepius heals their injuries but he doesn't deify anyone.

If we look up different sources, here's the list of people he resurrected.

Hippolytus (according to Pausanias and latin sources like Pseudo-Hyginus or Ovid)

What makes this particularly interesting is that Artemis is the one who has this idea. It shows that portraying her as a man hater is completely wrong since she asks her male nephew to resurrect her male friend/devotee. It shows her bond with Hippolytus (his death was very unfair, so I get it) and with Apollo too, since she trusted her brother's son completely.

Then, it's just funny but in-character that Theseus isn't the one who has the idea to resurrect his son, because of course he wouldn't think about it 😂. It's even funnier if we take late sources stating that Asclepius was among the Argonauts. Because Theseus was too, so they knew each other personally and yet Theseus couldn't think about it.

Another detail : Hippolytus seems to forgive Theseus in Euripides' play, but NOT after coming back to life in Pausanias' version. Different versions, I know, but if we mix the two, then we could interpret that maybe all this time in the Underworld gave him the opportunity to think about it, or maybe, with a new chance to live, he doesn't want to stay with his father.

I get you, Hippolytus. Go have fun.

Capaneus (according to Stesichorus)

What's interesting here is how Capaneus died : he participated in Polynice's siege against Thebes but was killed... by Zeus. He was struck by lightning because of hubris.

And then Asclepius comes and resurrects this guy. All the more reasons for Zeus to be angered. That means he came in and decided to undo divine punishment, the same one that will be his own doom in the future. It's pretty chilling for me.

Lycurgus

So, there are a lot of Lycurguses in mythology.

In the beginning, I thought it was Lycurgus of Thrace, which would've been hilarious because if this guy comes back to life, he'll come back traumatized and insane (also, any grapevine would be the source of PTSD flashbacks). And again, that would've mean undoing divine punishments.

BUT it seems to be a separate Lycurgus that was resurrected. Not the one who offended Dionysus.

It's also not Admetus' brother of the same name, though the logical link would've been easy to make (because of Apollo's servitude and Admetus also being an Argonaut according to some sources).

Honestly, Wikipedia is the only place where the Lycurgus that Asclepius resurrected is distinguished. Even then, the article speaks of a probable case and lists Apollodorus as a source. So not even researchers are completely sure of which Lycurgus it was.

Hymen/Hymenaios : yeah, according to the Orphics, he resurrected some guy named Hymen, even though the only figure with this name is a god... it would've been very interesting to analyze if I had more details about it. Unfortunately, there aren't really.

Tyndareus

Glaucus : It's funny how Asclepius resurrects both Theseus AND Minos' son. Though that exploit is more often attributed to the prophet and healer Polyidos. I wonder if there was some untold teacher-student relationship between the two, since Asclepius is one of the inventors of medicine (with Chiron)

And then there's this woman :

This cracks me up, because this little story alone states that Asclepius as a GOD still resurrects the dead even though he was punished for it. Tbf, he probably had to explain this to Zeus, that he had to compensate his partners' mistake. Still, that's hilarious that not even divine might stopped him.

Don't tell me he didn't know what he was doing. He's a smart guy and his father is literally mr. God of prophecy. I like his audacity.

So, coming back to the initial subject, with the sheer number of mentioned names, I do think they had the time to be buried and cross the Styx (except Capaneus, who was probably turned into ashes lol).

Asclepius definetly meddled with Hades' domain, thus angering the god of the dead and he 100% provoked Zeus.

But, not all the gods were agaisnt him. If we take the version where he resurrects people with gorgon blood, then Athena, who gave it to him, was in favor of his operations.

Then, there is Artemis who asked him to bring back Hippolytus and finally, quite obviously, his n°1 supporter is his own father Apollo (oh god, I could make a whole new post rambling just about Apollo and Asclepius).

So yeah, I really like this myth for many reasons and this is one of them : how it's tied to many other stories, how different figures behave and react to Asclepius' antics, how it puts the system of life and death into questions, etc...

Anyways, if you have anything to comment on about this myth, don't hesitate. I'd love to discuss it more !

My main source about all of this was Theoi.

[gingermintpepper]

Sliding in here just to throw my hat into the ring a little (Asclepius is, unironically, one of my favourite crimebags after all and this discussion is very interesting, though I lack a decent amount of its initial context) and to dig in a little to some of the points brought up in terms of 'mortals defeating gods' and Asclepius' place in that conversation;

I must first always bring up that the circumstances of Asclepius' birth itself were highly unique and ambiguous and the authors who tell the tale of Coronis' fate and Asclepius' birthing deliberately keep it vague as to whether or not Asclepius was already dead in the womb or whether the infant was still living. For my purposes, I usually think of baby Asclepius as still being alive before Apollo cuts him out, and the Pythian Ode supports this (though it's still fairly ambiguous) but the important thing here is that Asclepius was born on that knife's edge of life and death - where even a moment more of hesitation or deliberation would have killed him before he was even born for crimes that were not his own and that this act of clemancy essentially goes on to define how Asclepius himself lives his life.

(Pythian Ode 3: Skedaddle Skadabee, Apollo resolves to save his baby; trans. Svarlien)

This very neatly brings up my next point, aversion of death or "curing" death as @superkooku put it being a transgression against both Hades realm - and more specifically against Thanatos' work and domain as death god - and Zeus' realm - more specifically against the Fates' work as arbiters of mens' lifespans. There are a couple things to bring up here but I do want to focus on the whole idea of averting fate, specifically death, and how the line of Apollo tend to have unique ways of dealing with it. Apollo himself was already on such good terms with the Fates that he could do things like casually get them white girl wasted and extract ridiculous contracts from them (see: Admetus) but Apollo didn't dare resurrect mortal loved ones, even if he was anguished by their losses and he never tried to use his mastery of medicine or flesh to undo fate, even if it was completely within his power. That brings figures like Orpheus and Asclepius to the forefront as Apollonian figures that often flirt with the line of divine and mortal knowledge/skill with Asclepius being cited multiple times as not only being someone with the knowledge of how to cure all manners of affliction of the human condition but someone who, originally, at least, had the support of the gods to do so. Asclepius didn't just resurrect one or two people in a desperate situation - he had healed the 'malady' of death so many times that Athena herself knew that he would have a better use for gorgon blood than she ever would and was so well established that when Artemis got so desperate to save her beloved companion, she knew to go straight to Asclepius and not her brother. Because Apollo would have never revived Hippolytus, he wouldn't have even tried, Apollo doesn't undo Fate, he's one of its Lords. But Asclepius? As a mortal, and as a human, as someone that Apollo and Chiron passed all their healing knowledge onto and who went on to continue innovating the practice (often with Apollo overlooking and double-checking his work), it only makes sense that Asclepius' revivals were, for a time, sanctioned by the Olympian pantheon - or at the very least by Zeus who no doubt knew what he was doing and let him continue curing death so long as he didn't do anything egregious in his pursuit of it. (That egregious act would come either in the form of continuing to practice revival after being formally banned from it after Hades files his complaint to Zeus thus earning his punishment or from Asclepius beginning to accept money in exchange for healing others - something that was hotly debated but is still written in the Pythian Odes.)

(Pythian Ode 3: Asclepius, sweetie, maybe don't take the bribe?; trans. Svarlien)

Which leaves one last thing I wanted to comment on with regards to Asclepius' status as a figure in defiance of the ruling culture, of his cultic spread from Epidauros as a direct result of displeasure with Athenian war-mongering at the time and how his ideal of saving all men regardless of station or wealth or disease is, in turn, reflected in the way he stubbornly refuses to stop saving lives in his myth even if it means his death.

There's a wonderful article published in Cureus called "Socrates’s Last Words to the Physician God Asklepios: An Ancient Call for a Healing Ethos in Civic Life" which provides a contemplation on Socrates' final words and how even then, Asclepian ideals of universal empathy and care were a protest in the face of a greater oppressive power. And really, what greater oppressive power is there to mortals - to humans - than death? Hades is not only the god of the dead, he is also the god of wealth, the one who arbits over men's eternies and who possesses the immortal, unchanging soul of men. The system of the Underworld is a rigid caste where many will never taste the wonders of Elysium simply because they were not glorious enough or were born to the wrong parents or did not fight in the right wars and among the number of the living is Asclepius who did not care for the upheaval of order or the dereliction of immortal duty but merely cared about helping others no matter the cost.

I think that, more than anything, is what separates Asclepius from Diomedes or Perseus too. Both those heroes were pious and glorious, one for the sake of himself and the other for the sake of his mother but Asclepius cared for neither piety nor glory and merely sought to heal people. Whether he commited hubris or succumbed to greed, whether he was blameless or full of flaws, it cannot be argued that he was trusted by gods and humans alike to save their loved ones when the time came, no matter the circumstance, and that, I think, speaks far louder than any other aspect of his character.

Who did Asclepius resurrect ?

A couple days ago, I discussed the idea of mortals defeating gods with @kill-me-with-a-spoon on a comment section of my "thoughts on Epic" post.

We talked about Diomedes and Perseus briefly, but then a third example came in : Asclepius.

And I find this specific mention interesting because I didn't think about it but it kinda makes sense 😂

He didn't defeat any god like the two former heroes, that being physically overwhelming them. Instead, he simply "cures" death, thus Thanatos' doing. Not only his, but the Fates' too considering they cut the thread of life. And he meddled with Hades' realm, something that he hated and we know how that ended.

(Hades hating doctors will never not be funny)

I made some research on him for personal projects and so I want to use it right now for personal ramblings about who exactly Asclepius resurrected.

@kill-me-with-a-spoon was pointing out that if, by technicality, he didn't interfere with Hades' domain if souls he resurrected didn't cross the Styx. And I've got to say, I think he did.

Also, I completely agree with the fact that they're still killable. They won't die from the same cause since Asclepius heals their injuries but he doesn't deify anyone.

If we look up different sources, here's the list of people he resurrected.

Hippolytus (according to Pausanias and latin sources like Pseudo-Hyginus or Ovid)

What makes this particularly interesting is that Artemis is the one who has this idea. It shows that portraying her as a man hater is completely wrong since she asks her male nephew to resurrect her male friend/devotee. It shows her bond with Hippolytus (his death was very unfair, so I get it) and with Apollo too, since she trusted her brother's son completely.

Then, it's just funny but in-character that Theseus isn't the one who has the idea to resurrect his son, because of course he wouldn't think about it 😂. It's even funnier if we take late sources stating that Asclepius was among the Argonauts. Because Theseus was too, so they knew each other personally and yet Theseus couldn't think about it.

Another detail : Hippolytus seems to forgive Theseus in Euripides' play, but NOT after coming back to life in Pausanias' version. Different versions, I know, but if we mix the two, then we could interpret that maybe all this time in the Underworld gave him the opportunity to think about it, or maybe, with a new chance to live, he doesn't want to stay with his father.

I get you, Hippolytus. Go have fun.

Capaneus (according to Stesichorus)

What's interesting here is how Capaneus died : he participated in Polynice's siege against Thebes but was killed... by Zeus. He was struck by lightning because of hubris.

And then Asclepius comes and resurrects this guy. All the more reasons for Zeus to be angered. That means he came in and decided to undo divine punishment, the same one that will be his own doom in the future. It's pretty chilling for me.

Lycurgus

So, there are a lot of Lycurguses in mythology.

In the beginning, I thought it was Lycurgus of Thrace, which would've been hilarious because if this guy comes back to life, he'll come back traumatized and insane (also, any grapevine would be the source of PTSD flashbacks). And again, that would've mean undoing divine punishments.

BUT it seems to be a separate Lycurgus that was resurrected. Not the one who offended Dionysus.

It's also not Admetus' brother of the same name, though the logical link would've been easy to make (because of Apollo's servitude and Admetus also being an Argonaut according to some sources).

Honestly, Wikipedia is the only place where the Lycurgus that Asclepius resurrected is distinguished. Even then, the article speaks of a probable case and lists Apollodorus as a source. So not even researchers are completely sure of which Lycurgus it was.

Hymen/Hymenaios : yeah, according to the Orphics, he resurrected some guy named Hymen, even though the only figure with this name is a god... it would've been very interesting to analyze if I had more details about it. Unfortunately, there aren't really.

Tyndareus

Glaucus : It's funny how Asclepius resurrects both Theseus AND Minos' son. Though that exploit is more often attributed to the prophet and healer Polyidos. I wonder if there was some untold teacher-student relationship between the two, since Asclepius is one of the inventors of medicine (with Chiron)

And then there's this woman :

This cracks me up, because this little story alone states that Asclepius as a GOD still resurrects the dead even though he was punished for it. Tbf, he probably had to explain this to Zeus, that he had to compensate his partners' mistake. Still, that's hilarious that not even divine might stopped him.

Don't tell me he didn't know what he was doing. He's a smart guy and his father is literally mr. God of prophecy. I like his audacity.

So, coming back to the initial subject, with the sheer number of mentioned names, I do think they had the time to be buried and cross the Styx (except Capaneus, who was probably turned into ashes lol).

Asclepius definetly meddled with Hades' domain, thus angering the god of the dead and he 100% provoked Zeus.

But, not all the gods were agaisnt him. If we take the version where he resurrects people with gorgon blood, then Athena, who gave it to him, was in favor of his operations.

Then, there is Artemis who asked him to bring back Hippolytus and finally, quite obviously, his n°1 supporter is his own father Apollo (oh god, I could make a whole new post rambling just about Apollo and Asclepius).

So yeah, I really like this myth for many reasons and this is one of them : how it's tied to many other stories, how different figures behave and react to Asclepius' antics, how it puts the system of life and death into questions, etc...

Anyways, if you have anything to comment on about this myth, don't hesitate. I'd love to discuss it more !

My main source about all of this was Theoi.