#Amsha and Richard's A++ parenting

[walkingstackofbooks]

Too many DBIP feelings! #1

I rewatched DBIP yesterday and a few things really struck me that either hadn't before or that I'd forgotten. This then became far longer a post than I'd imagined, so I've ended up splitting it into 5 different (much shorter!) ones. Part 2: Richard's arguing tactics Part 3: Amsha's manipulations Part 4: Their 'apologies' Part 5: Their disregard for Julian's wants

Part 1: Richard's insecurity over Julian's enhancements

Over time, I've come to assume that this was more in my head than in canon. But not, it's right there on the screen and it makes me furious. A long time ago, I mused that Julian's image of himself as "unnatural" might have come from the unknowing, offhand comments of playground bullies, but actually... from these conversations, I think Richard himself could well have described Julian's intelligence as "unnatural" during his childhood.

"We're not as bright as he is. We don't have your gifted intellect so we can't see the perfectly obvious." "You're so smart. You know so much that you can stand there and judge us. But you're still not smart enough to see that we saved you from a lifetime of remedial education and underachievement!"

He just cannot stand Julian being able to hold his own in an argument. His own intelligence is such a point of pride that he cannot allow his son to be smarter than him, despite him literally desigining Julian that way. He claims that genetic enhancements are nothing to be ashamed of - that, if anything Julian's "a little more" human for them - yet he's constantly putting Julian down for using his intellet in any way that Richard disagrees with. ("You could've done research back on Earth. I told you that five years ago." AS THOUGH JULIAN DIDN'T KNOW THAT.)

[youngpettyqueen]

truly a crime we didnt get to see more of Miles' reaction to Julian being augmented because I think he should've punched Richard Bashir in the face

[bijoumikhawal]

I am #projecting but Amsha and Richard are both exactly the kind of parents to tell their kids shit like "never write anything down you don't want seen by a judge" and to have like. Extended conversations about that nature of outsider perception and decontextualization SPECIFICALLY to maintain control over their kid

[worflesbian]

reverse unpopular opinion..... worf as a father/his relationship with alexander :)

ZOE. you knew exactly what you were doing sending this to me thank you SO much <3

i genuinely believe that worf and alexander's relationship is a really strong storyline and one of the best examples of a less-than-perfect parent/child dynamic in star trek. i've talked a lot about how worf was put in an incredibly difficult position suddenly becoming a single parent in early next gen, and i think his various ensuing failures towards alexander are realistic and accurate to his situation, and give insight into his flaws as a character (i.e. the stuff of compelling tv). the fact that worf seeks deanna's help throughout the following seasons is a crucial indication that he doesn't want to be failing his son the way he is, but the way he often ignores or struggles to follow her advice is, as mentioned, a realistic depiction of how people don't change overnight. by the end of next gen, episodes like firstborn show how much worf has changed for the better as a parent -- he's not perfect, but he's trying, and over the years it's paying off. and i Love how painfully true to life that is!!

this is why i used to resent that alexander was so absent from ds9 - i felt like things were finally looking up for their relationship at the end of next gen, and then the ds9 writers wrote alexander out again. however, i actually just rewatched way of the warrior this morning and it kind of changed my mind when miles asks about alexander and worf says that he's "much happier living with his grandparents on earth" - it's the kind of line that seems innocuous but has SO many implications when you dig into it! worf doesn't realise that he's fucking up by abandoning his son because he genuienly believes that alexander is happiest when he's not with worf. it's the root of worf's parenting struggles from the start: he's so scared of failing that he can't bring himself to confront the ways he's actually failing. which again is painfully true to life!

i think the thing i love most about their relationship is alexander's return in sons and daughters. i've talked a lot about that episode but i just can't think of another time on star trek where they've shown a child confront their parent with their failings and how awfully they've hurt them and show not only the process of that parent realising what they've done, but the genuine apology and reconciliation that follows. i think alexander gets the kind of admission of guilt and acceptance of consequence from worf that odo deserved, but could never realistically get, from dr mora, or julian from richard and amsha bashir. i love it because it shouldn't be on alexander to step up and confront his father, but a lot of things have happened to the both of them that shouldn't have, and it's so important to me that they show it get messy, that they show worf really lashing out at his own son, before they show the reconciliation. that combination of real hurt and real accountability is what makes them, in my opinion, the best depiction of this kind of dynamic in any trek show i've seen.

[walkingstackofbooks]

Too many DBIP feelings! #3

Part 1: Richard's insecurity over Julian's enhancements Part 2: Richard's arguing tactics Part 4: Their 'apologies' Part 5: Their disregard for Julian's wants

Part 2: Amsha's manipulations

Oh, she's just awful. First off, it was really noticeable how much she forces Julian to hug or touch her -- the first scene in Sisko's office, in particular, when he's so clearly uncomfortable.

And then she tries to make herself into this mediator, but she's not a good one. She loves Richard -- she talks about his stacks of drawings like their endearing, she's very affectionate with him, and while she will say something if she thinks he's going to far, I don't think it's necessarily because she disagrees with him, but because she knows how he said it will send Julian away. But she also is, in a way, happy to make out that Richard is the "bad parent" to keep her position as the neutral, loving parent intact. She makes Richard 'apologise', she takes none of the blame for the genetic engineering -- once again, I am going to call this behaviour gaslighting. Amsha is constantly manufacturing this image of her own reasonableness and love for Julian as opposed to his father's tendency to fly off the handle, and this is supposed to absolve her of any reponsibility she has for neglecting Julain's needs.

In my view, Amsha only interested in making Julian return her "love" for him (and to a lesser extent, Richard's too). In that second conversation, she initially makes a small plea for him to "listen to his father" (causing Julian to physically move away from her hand on his shoulder) -- and then allows them to continue with their argument, until it gets to the point where Julian implies they're both unloving. Her anger clearly takes Julian aback; she's the one here who attacks his feelings as unreasonable and makes him back down into silence. And then her entire argument is all about her feelings. To paraphrase: "Watching you struggle made me feel bad."

Then she says this: "You can condemn us for what we did. You can say it's illegal or immoral or whatever you want to say, but you have to understand that we didn't do it because we were ashamed, but because you were our son and we loved you."

i.e: "I know you think it was wrong, and I'll even let you say that, but you are not allowed to think that we don't love you."

And if Julian has to believe that his parents' motive was their love for him, then, actually... is he really allowed to condemn them? Or is that just lip service, again, to make Amsha sound reasonable and accommodating?

[cucumbermoon]

Star Trek is awesome for exploring all the ways that people can be bad parents. I don’t say that facetiously; I mean it. There are a lot of ways to screw up as a parent, even when you have the highest hopes and the best intentions, and Star Trek explores that topic with depth and finesse.

I can not stress enough that in Star Trek, Amanda Grayson being an incredibly loving wife AND shitty parent is a feature, not a bug. She loves Sarek with her whole heart. And as much as she loves Spock, every single time she has to choose between them, she'll back Sarek. Spock grew up knowing his mom loved him, but that she also did not understand him and would never have his back.

Before people in the mainstream even had the vocabulary to describe what they were seeing, they understood on a gut level that Spock was a neurodivergent, mixed race adult son of two incredibly charismatic and successful parents.

There are so many layers of relatability here.

A surprising lot of people in very loving and devoted marriages aren't great parents. An unsurprising lot of powerful people with prestigious careers also aren't great parents.

Folks who grew up with parents who were great at their jobs and devoted to one another but who just couldn't relate to or understand their kids could see themselves in Spock. Moreover, he demonstrated that if they took a path radically different from what their parents wanted, they could become incredibly successful and even well liked in a whole different sphere.

Most of all, for folks who could see how much their parents adored one another but never felt like that love extended to them, there is something profound in the way Kirk looks at Spock like he hangs the stars in the sky. He's a source of hope that even if you grew up as your family's ugly duckling, if you get out from under their influence you can find someone who will perceive you as a swan.

[subatoism]

Y’know don’t take this as apologism but Amsha’s comment about worrying Julian had inherited his learning/developmental disabilities from them makes a lot more sense if you’re reading Richard “can’t hold down a job” “leaping from passion project to passion project” “right now it’s landscape architecture” Bashir as also ADHD and struggling with his own internalized ableism which he likely inherited from *his* parents

[undeadcalico]

TW: eugenics and ableism

I think it’s really important to bring up things about Amsha Bashir aside from her involvement in Julian’s genetic engineering.

Amsha has a tendency to placate and excuse when Richard hurts or upsets Julian and I’m glad this is shown in the show, but I wanted to address and talk about it more.

What his parents did to him and the way Richard handles Julian’s grief about having been genetically modified is easier to tell when it comes to ways Julian has been harmed. A more subtle form of harm is having a parent defend or change the subject when the other parent says or does something harmful, without even acknowledging or trying to understand the child’s feelings or thoughts about the situation.

Scenes from Doctor Bashir, I Presume?

Richard: “Despite what the authorities would like us to believe, genetic engineering is nothing to be ashamed of. You’re not any less human than anyone else. In fact, you’re a little more.”

Amsha: “We didn’t come here to start another fight. Let’s just, try to get through this.”

Richard equates societal standards of intelligence with what makes someone more or less human, and there’s the implication that he saw Julian as less human before they had him modified. This was brushed off by Amsha and she wasn’t upset with his comment, she just didn’t want there to be another argument.

Amsha: “You don’t know. You’ve never had a child. You don’t know what it’s like to watch your son… to watch him fall a little further behind every day. You know he’s trying, but… something’s holding him back. You don’t know what it’s like to stay up every night worrying that maybe… it’s your fault. Maybe you did something wrong during the pregnancy, maybe you weren’t careful enough, or maybe there’s something wrong with you. Maybe you passed on a genetic defect without even knowing it. You can condemn us for what we did, you can say it’s illegal or immoral or whatever you want to say, but you have to understand that we didn’t do it because we were ashamed. It was because you’re our son, and we loved you.” (argument ends and Amsha hugs Julian)

I’m aware she does love Julian and didn’t intend to hurt him. It’s fair for Amsha to feel distressed about raising a disabled child. It’s difficult, society is often unaccepting, it’s hard to find resources, many teachers and even doctors are dismissive and non-understanding, etc. (does not make the genetic modifications done on Julian ok, but it is ok to struggle and be distressed about things)

But Julian was talking about how their decision to change his brain to the point where they essentially killed the son they originally had greatly harmed him. He was talking about how they decided he was worthless and wouldn’t amount to much, if anything, at 6 years old.

At the same time, Richard was continuously defending him and Amsha’s decision and belittling Julian for feeling the way he did about the situation. Amsha didn’t say anything about this. Even if she was afraid to intensify the argument, she could have acknowledged or validated Julian’s feelings in some way, but she didn’t. She continued helping Richard in defending their actions, although she was nicer/more polite about it.

Just wanted to discuss this aspect more in detail, since it’s shown but not really addressed in the episode

[quasi-normalcy]

"Dark Frontier" is a bad episode in general and I've never particularly liked it, but rewatching it as an adult makes me additionally annoyed with what horrible fucking parents Magnus and Erin Hansen are. "Oh yeah, let's bring our preschool-aged child with us on an unregistered Borg safari! Lol, we're sneaking across the Neutral Zone now based on a rumour! With our PRESCHOOL-AGED CHILD. Oh, looks like these legendary invincible cyborgs not only are REAL, they also practise forced assimilation of other species! Well, we'd better follow them through this transwarp conduit to their territory at the other end of the Galaxy! WITH OUR PRESCHOOL-AGED CHILD"

Right up there with Richard and Amsha Bashir in the running for the Star Trek 'parents of the year' award.

[walkingstackofbooks]

I always figured that if his parents were ableist in the 2370s, them being homophobic isn't such a massive leap. Especially with his dad being so obsessed about Julian being his "legacy" - I can imagine them wanting him to have a wife and "proper" children of his own no matter what modern medicine is capable of.

"it doesn't make any logical sense for julian to have hang-ups about being queer in the 2370s" is an objectively, factually correct take.

but I need julian bashir to have just bare minimum enough internalized homophobia for 'one of your girls' to be a garak pov garashir song

[littlewalken]

If Garak and Bashir's parents had ever met it would totally turn into a who can bash their son the most contest between Tain and Richard. Amsha would be wavering between thinking they were right to have Julian "fixed" and realizing perhaps they were wrong, depending on your take on her. Mila would struggle harder and harder to keep her composure and not just blast the Bashirs into oblivion. Tobin would 'hate to interrupt but could the boys help me with something' and spend the rest of the night hugging Garak and Bashir and sobbing while trying to convince Mila not to poison the other three.

[ofhouseadama]

how would Garak meeting Bashir’s parents go

Garak puts on the performance of his LIFE and wins an award for most charming son-in-law but absolutely despises Richard and is lukewarm on Amsha. I think if it came down to necessity, he'd threaten Richard so that he'd stop fucking with Julian's medical career on Cardassia but for the most part, Garak knows Julian can handle himself.

He'll wait for an invitation to step in, because he knows that if either Julian's parents step one toe out of line in regards to their children, who do need defending, Julian will go nuclear. Julian's not tolerating that. And it's up to Julian to decide what he wants to tolerate for himself.

[walkingstackofbooks]

Too many DBIP feelings! #5

Part 1: Richard's insecurity over Julian's enhancements Part 2: Richard's arguing tactics Part 3: Amsha's manipulations Part 4: Their 'apologies'

Part 5: Their disregard for Julian's wants

I feel like the previous points have covered this to an extent, but there's a big one which, previously, I've managed to overlook.

At the end of the second conversation, Amsha, in all her reasonableness, finally seems to start listening to Julian. She's shared her feelings, assured him they love him, and asks him "What do you want to do?", to which he, of course, responds with a weary "Nothing".

AND THEN THEY COMPLETELY DISREGARD THIS.

AND THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE THE BASIS FOR JULIAN'S FORGIVENESS OF THEM?!

I mean, luckily for Julian, it worked out. But they had no basis to assume that Sisko could do anything, and they had no right to go behind Julian's back in the way that they did!

And this is something I've said before, but I also HATE how it's framed that Richard is going to prison "in exchange" for Julian's career. Why should Julian have to bear any of the responsibility for Richard going to prison, when it was Richard's choice to do something illegal that carries a prison sentence? But as it is, Julian would presumably be portrayed as unreasonable if, after this 'sarifice', he didn't forgive his parents and 'accept their love'. Gahhhhhhh. It's just another, horrible manipulation -- and while I don't believe his parents had that much power over how it played out, they must have been going into Sisko's office with some sort of similar agenda on the cards.

["He pleads guilty to illegal genetic engineering and in exchange you stay in the service."

Writing this post, and thinking about this quote, has started me wondering how exactly the conversation went down, because "I'll come quietly if you let him stay in Starfleet" isn't exactly a flex. Unless, of course, Richard has threatened to make this a very embarrassing, public, courtroom drama for Starfleet if the plea deal isn't made -- exactly the type of fuss Julian explicitly didn't want.

I know that Sisko's very good at making his case, and it might all have been his influence. But I can't help wondering if that was the only reason "Richard pleading guilty" would be seen as a good enough reason to acquit Julian, when whether he did or not, they now have evidence of his wrongdoing.]

[libraflyter]

It is definitely a case of casting choices adding to the story.

We have a mostly London, not very posh accent for Richard Bashir - and an Egyptian accent for Amsha Bashir.

More meta on the casting that let this come to be (tldr: Amsha’s actress is cooler than Amsha)

In a rare example of a tv show attempting mindful casting, the actors for Julian’s parents were chosen to plausibly be the parents of Julian BASHIR, aiming for MENA or adjacent. Presumably they didn’t want American accents, too. For 90s Hollywood (and tv guest star budget) … that was not a broad casting pool.

They got a solid working actor for Richard Bashir, Brian George, who used a version of his native mostly-London accent. Looking at his cv, he was probably happy to not be cast for Stereotypical Indian accent.

The more fascinating story is the actress who played Amsha Bashir, Dr. Fadwa El Guindi, an Egyptian-American woman who is far more noted for her real job as an anthropologist and academic. Her previous experience was making a documentary for the Smithsonian and some amateur theater in CA (she taught at SoCal) which is what brought her to the production’s attention when they needed an actress old enough to be Siddig’s mother and were struggling to find someone. And so Amsha Bashir became Egyptian, opening up a whole new space for fandom discourse.

At least El Guindi got something fun to put in her cv and presumably a good anecdote for impressing her colleagues and students.

I'm surprised that I haven't come across anyone else talking about how fascinating it is that Julian Bashir and his father do not have the same English accent. Like, the implications, y'all.

Julian sounds much more upper class than his father, which would seem to indicate one of two things, either:

a) Julian adopted his accent to deliberately distance himself from his father.

or

b) Julian learnt his accent at a young age at the insistence of his father to further his air of sophistication.

Either way, it certainly adds another facet to Julian's Parental Angst.

[sapphosewrites]

Chapters: 1/1 Fandom: Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Rating: General Audiences Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply Relationships: Julian Bashir & Elim Garak Characters: Julian Bashir, Elim Garak Additional Tags: Richard and Amsha Bashir's A+ parenting, Enabran Tain's A+ Parenting, Fairy Tales, literary discussions, lunchtime debates Summary:

Julian and Garak discuss the story of Rapunzel.

[autisticburnham]

Doctor Bashir, I Presume?

I've been putting off this episode bc I have a bunch of library books to read, not bc I'm scared to watch it after getting my diagnosis. Totally

Leeta, I love you

Rom, I love you

Heeeeelllllloooooo Leeta

Leeta, baby, you can ask him out

Quark, that's a disgusting comment to make to anyone, but especially since we know she's studying sociology just for fun

Ugh, Zimmerman

It's a wonder the doctor turned out as well as he did with this fuck as a personality base

Speaking of whom, btw, @ Picard or Lower Decks, can a get a name for him please?

Honey, the original EMH program will be replaced by the time Voyager's even able to talk to the Alpha Quadrant

I know the Federation is supposed to be idyllic and all, but it's horrific negligence if they don't train doctors to work with abuse victims. There's absolutely no excuse for Zimmerman to invite Julian's parents to the station after a reaction like that

The LMH is a bitch. And no offense to Siddig, but it's way less charming on him

Jadzia, honey, he absolutely did harrass you

I love that they imply Morn is so talkative and yet he's evidently got nothing to say on Julian

Miles, idiot, tell your friends you love them

Those fanartists that draw Bajorans with big mouse like ears are so right. Leeta would be adorable and so expressive with them

LOVE the implication that Rom needs to tune his ear like a radio to hear certain things

I hate how Zimmerman looks at Leeta

Hate this

He's so uncomfortable

He's clearly just shutting down

Benjamin, I love you, but this the second time in a season when one of your employees is very obviously under emotional duress bc of the presence of their parents. How are you not noticing this shit?

Don't fucking call him Jules

He reaches for Amsha's hand so mechanically, it's clearly just something that's been drilled into him that he's supposed to do

Dax, aren't you supposed to be a people person? Why are you all smiles rn?

At least she puts an emphasis on Julian's name when she says it. Maybe she thinks he's just uncomfortable bc they're deadnaming him and it doesn't go deeper than that?

Considering what we've seen of Zimmerman combined with the EMH's behavior, this offer seems much more like he's trying to isolate Leeta from her support group and make her feel like she owes him rather than genuinely trying to help her

He has no fucking reason to trust you, bastard

IT WAS YOUR FUCKING DECISION TO MODIFY HIM! DON'T ACT LIKE YOUR POTENTIAL PRISON SENTENC MAKES YOU A VICTIM

Chase Masterson, I love you

I see the acting choices that make people read Amsha as being just as much a victim of Richard as Julian is, but considering the way she talks about Julian pre engineering, she's absolutely an Autism Mom. She may have hurt Julian in different ways than Richard, but she absolutely hurt him. And of course that doesn't change the fact that she may be a victim too, but she's nowhere near as innocent as people portray her

Fucking idiots

Of course he's not less human, he never was. The problem is that you treated him like he was before the """"enhancements""""

Is that a bird feeder on Julian's desk?

Jesus, this scene hurts so much

Why don't Federation schools have programs to help intellectually disabled students that would have noticed and help him?

At least the Federation doesn't consider Julian's Ambigious DisorderTM a "serious birth defect" that justifies genetic encoding. Although the ambiguity of that rule is still very uncomfortably eugenicist

Wishing he had accommodations for his disability instead of abusive parents who would rather rewrite his DNA than accept him as he was doesn't make him "spoiled"

Gross that the writing lowkey implies that their crime was robbing Julian of the potential to "get better" on his own and "not giving him a chance" rather than just the pure ableism and eugenicsm of doing that to any disability person, regardless of their ability to mask

Bitch, forcibly changing everything about him to fit the mold you wanted isn't love. And I don't care how much it "hurt you to see him struggling," I promise you it hurt him more to know that his parents thought he was worthless. It's so fucking disgusting how much media about disabled people focuses on the "burden" the disabled person is to their family rather than how much their family hurts them by constantly making them feel unwanted

And it works too! He hugs her! He thinks his existence was more of a problem than they way they treated him!

Fucking gross that the reason genetic engineering is outlawed is bc of the fear of there being another Khan rather than eugenics just being fucking wrong! I hate this goddamn episode and I hate how Star Trek treats disability!

Also, prisons should be obsolete in the Federation, but they somehow found a way to make that the less upsetting thing here

Disgusting that he forgives them!

Someone make a Short King Anthem amv for Rom!

I'm sorry Miles, how did you just pronounce "patronize"?

I know the darts scene is just supposed to be a meaningless funny bit at the end of the episode, but it's what! They! Should! Do! Provide accommodations for people with different ability levels!!!! Don't treat them like they're lesser or fucking restructure their DNA! Just give them a different starting point that evens things out!!!

Gross when Miles O'Brien does a better job at understanding the moral of the episode than the writers do!

Thank god for Rom and Leeta, otherwise this episode would be unwatchable. 1/10