#4x14 is the ultimate example of this for me like

[imminent-danger-came]

YOU think MK is a selfless forgiving good boi mc. I think he's self-centered, but that doesn't devalue the good deeds that happen as a result. We are not the same

[littlespoonevan]

Top 5 Buddie moments? ☺️🥰

oh my godddd where do i start???? can i even pick 5????????? *Edit upon finishing writing: most of these ended up focusing on Eddie’s feelings towards Buck I feel??? and I definitely have Things to say about their reunion in 3x06 and the kitchen scene bc they’re also up there as my faves so I could possibly also do an alternative top 5 that’s more Buck caring about Eddie but anyway here you go!

5. 2x04 - Buck introduces Eddie to Carla

Honestly every single interaction between them in this ep is my favourite because Buck supports Eddie so much throughout the whole ep????? Taking him to the hospital, telling Maddie what a great dad he is, giving Bobby the heads up when Eddie has to bring Chris to the station, it's all So Good. Especially when you remember they're still only just becoming friends at this point. But Buck introducing him to Carla has to be the icing on the cake for me. It's just- we've seen how smothered Eddie has felt in the past when it comes to caring for Christopher, how his parents have continually tried to take over or make him feel like he's doing something wrong, and I just really, really love that Buck offers him this support and this magic fix but in a way that doesn't undermine Eddie as a parent at all??????? Like he helps him but not because he thinks Eddie can't handle it but because he thinks Eddie deserves a break and wants to make things easier for him. It's amazing and I loVE IT

4. 3x18 - His fiancée's AbBy

sakljdfhs okay look. Listen. I love this scene so much and I think only recently sort of understand why. It's the first time we really see Eddie lose his calm during an emergency and the first time we see him specifically lose his calm over Buck. Because Eddie clearly knows how to compartmentalise and because of that we generally only see him look worried but not really outwardly react when Buck is in danger. But this scene akjsdh he's so aNNOYED and frustrated and it's fascinating because you have to wonder how much he knows about Abby and who's told him what. But what we do know is he knows Abby broke his best friend's heart and he knows Buck is willing to sacrifice himself for anyone but no way in hell is Eddie about to let him become collateral damage for someone who doesn't deserve it (and now we know he'd already changed/or was changing his will during this time *screams*). And yeah it's fun to call it jealousy but ultimately I think it was a lot of worry and a lot of frustration on Eddie's part because it's a very clear example of Buck believing he's expendable and Eddie wanting to shout, "You're wrong!!!!". Just. What a good fucking scene.

3. 3x03 - There’s nobody in this world I trust with my son more than you

I mean how could I not include this scene?????? It’s just- everything. All of it. From Buck’s voiceover to photograph playing in the background to the way Eddie all but bulldozes his way through casual conversation in the hopes of not having to explain. It’s about the absolutely unconditional way Eddie forgives him, like it’s not even a question, and the way Buck is so clearly torn up and can’t understand why Eddie doesn’t toss him aside. I’ll never get over “A few choice words can be the life raft that gets you home” combined with “There is nobody in this world I trust with my son more than you.” And obviously we know just how true that is later on but in this scene, you can tell Buck hears him even if he can’t quite allow himself to believe it yet. And it’s so soft and so gentle and just another one of those examples that prove to us that Eddie always seems to know exactly what to say to Buck to bring him back to the surface :’)

2. 4x04 - The gym scene

Honestly if it wasn’t for the season 4 finale this would be my number one. How do I love this scene? Let me count the ways. Just sakdjhfa fuck!!!!! it’s the first time we’ve ever seen Buck angry and I know obviously Eddie’s his confidant but it’s so good to actually see Eddie being his confidant. To see that Eddie’s the one he wants to vent to and that Eddie’s the one he trusts with his anger and Eddie just remains such a calming presence in the face of it all????? From the gentle way he talks to the way his foot holds down the punching bag while Buck hits it - I am on the floor. And also!!!!!! Eddie just repeatedly validating Buck’s feelings - “What do you have to apologise for? If that’s how you feel - how they made you feel - then you have every right to say so.” askdjfhas I think it’s really important actually because Buck is always called out for thinking before he acts and yeah, obviously sometimes he should apologise but I really love that Eddie takes the time to make it clear this is different. That Buck didn’t do anything wrong and is allowed to be upset. Also Eddie stopping Buck from hitting the punching bag when Buck says “I just want to hit things” and saying “I’ve been down that road. I don’t recommend it” goodbye???????????? He cares about Buck so much let me be. 

1. 4x14 - You think you’re expendable...but you’re wrong

askdjfha is there anything I can say about this scene that hasn’t already been said?????? It’s stunning. It’s so beautiful and so significant and I will never recover. Eddie is someone who struggles so much to talk about his feelings but he’s the one who initiates the conversation because this is important to him. And I said this yesterday but it really is a declaration of love????? I’ve written before about how the scene sort of parallels/answers Buck’s “Love me anyway” plea but one thing I noticed when rewatching Buck Begins is that when Buck gets hurt Margaret yells at him and says “You think you’re indestructible but you’re not” and it’s such a contrast to Eddie saying “You think you’re expendable...but you’re wrong.” even though the two sentences are almost identical. I’ve talked a lot about how significant the word “expendable” is and that parallel sort of reinforced it for me because Margaret is chastising Buck. She’s admonishing him for being reckless with himself and his body and it’s inarguably tied to Daniel. Whereas Eddie uses the word expendable because he knows Buck’s recklessness comes from a place of not feeling wanted. So he tells him I want you and I love you and you can’t get hurt because me and Christopher need you and Buck hears him. And I mean, that’s not even getting into the wILL of it all???? Like, hello???????? but I’m gonna stop now because I’m rambling but aksjdfhsja honestly this scene has broken me beyond repair and I for one am so grateful

[crossovereddie]

Actually, here is an alternative thing for you to occupy your time with, and a question I have been meaning to ask you for a while. I have finished 911 finally! So I'm ready for the new season. And I wonder, realistically, what do you think the roadmap would be for a buddie endgame?

I absolutely see how their story has been framed and filmed in a lot of parallels to how a romantic storyline would be set out. But there has been no outright mention of either of them being bi - although the conversation about Maddy setting Buck up with whassisface was very casual and could very easily have been an example of canonically bi Buck - and they are both at the end of season 4 in 'relationships' with women.

So, in your estimation, what's the timeline? What's the transition? How do they go about this and how long does it take? I wanna know your thoughts 👀

okay yes i have lots of thoughts on this and it's actually one of my fave questions i get asked. I've always watched a lot of tv shows so I'm just estimating on what I've seen before and what I would personally do. IMO this love story is a slow burn. We only have four seasons so far and only three of those seasons have Eddie in them. This unsurprisingly got long so ill put it under the cut.

So I'll go by seasons bc to me its important to look at everything that has happened so far by seasons and by love interests and not as a whole. Its the best way i can form a timeline that I think would make the most sense and why

S1: So we don't get any hints at Buck being anything other than straight and I think this is because he was supposed to be. They hadn't planned for Eddie yet and they definitely hadn't planned for the chemistry Oliver and Ryan were gonna have. S1 Buck was this reckless kid who didn't take anything serious. He was definitely super immature. Then he meets Abby and he starts to get serious about his job and his love life. I'm not gonna say "Abby changed him" because she didnt. He saw the person he was and the person he was becoming and decided on that change himself.

S2: Eddie!!!! So we get introduced to this army medic turned firefighter in the least heterosexual way. Then Buck is angry because Eddie is hot and really good at his job. they work together and Eddie compliments Buck and now they're smiley bffs. Seriously wtf was all that? Anyway this is all sus bc from what ive seen before in other shows when a main love interest leaves and a new main character replaces them, that means something. JLH replaced Connie Britton as far as big name actress but i really believe Eddie replaced Abby as far as importance in Buck's life. Do i think they brought him in with the intentions of turning him into a LI? No but they sure fueled the narrative from the get go. I think they saw fans reactions and started testing the waters.

Moving on to LIs in this season. We find out Eddie has a kid and the mother is not in the picture (eddie made sure buck knew that right away). Then later on we find out he's technically still married. shannon comes back and we get Eddie finally getting to confront this head on. He tries to get his family back together for the sake of his son. Its big for Eddie's character bc all he does and all he's ever done is for his son. Then Shannon asks for a divorce then she dies bringing this arc to an abrupt end and leaving eddie heartbroken.

meanwhile Buck is still waiting for Abby. Then he finally accepts that shes not coming back and decides to move on. He goes right back to being "Buck 1.0" with Taylor and feels bad about himself because that really isnt him anymore. He wants a real relationship. So then Ali calls and asks him on an actual date and he agrees. This is his first try at a relationship after a heartbreak. in tv these don't usually work out but are used to develop the main character's growth. We don't really see much of her but she breaks up with him so.

S3: This is Eddie finally dealing with his feelings/guilt season. This is also the season I think we really see how important Buck is to the Diaz boys. S2 had cute buckley-diaz family moments but those could still be interpreted as a best friend and his best friend's kid. This season though... after the tsunamic episode was when i really started to fully believe buddie was going canon. This season is solidifying their bond not only as Buck and Eddie but as Buck Eddie and Christpher. As I'm writing this I realized neither of them really has a love interest in this season do they? Ana is introduced but then is clearly presented as definitely NOT the right choice for eddie and especially for Chris. Then they counter that with Buck helping Eddie build a skateboard for Chris that he can use as opposed to Ana's ablest remarks about how he can't do it so just move on to something else. Then we get Buck's reaction in Eddie Begins. Buck has seen his team his friends his family get hurt on the job before but he has never reacted the way he did when it was Eddie in danger. Again solidifying just how much these two mean to each other. Don't even get me started on this season being when Eddie changes his will offscreen. Anyway we get Abby back and Buck finally gets the closure from that relationship that he needs to move forward into a serious relationship.

Now S4: jfc s4....IMO this is the only logical season to get the ball rolling on Buddie and they sure did that with 4x14 despite everything else. So i never thought they would be the first serious relationship for each other after the heart break theyve both experienced. It wouldn't be fair to their character developments. Buck tries dating Veronica and that clearly doesnt work but we know hes now open to dating again. We get Buck Begins where we see why Buck is the dare devil he is. The only way he got his parents attention as a kid was to put himself in danger. They bring back taylor and how to they ultimately get together after she friendzones him? She thinks hes in danger and suddenly wants him. As much as i hate it this is really gonna be a relationship where Buck finally stands up for himself and sees his own worth and realizes he deserves more. He deserves someone who sees him and loves him for who he is. He deserves to be chosen, something Abby Ali his parents dont do and what i think taylor wont end up doing. I feel like shes gonna choose her career over him. Maybe not in a "I'm breaking up with you" way but maybe she takes a new job and want to do LD (hes tried that twice and it didnt work for him. hes not gonna want that) or she could ask him to go with her but he wont. His family is in LA. His job is in LA. Eddie and Chris are in LA and he won't leave them. Then we have Eddie finally deciding to move on and try dating again so they bring back ana. To me it's not gonna work out so I'm not bothered at all lmao. It's interesting that they'd choose her though. Someone we already know Eddie doesn't trust with his son. There's also more buckley-diaz family scenes of them being coparents. The hildy episode, Chris running to Buck when hes mad at eddie, Buck being the one to tell Chris Eddie got hurt, then Buck staying with Chris and taking on the guardian role without him even knowing just how much that role really does belong to him. He didn't do it out of obligation. He didn't do it because he was asked to. He did it because he thought it would be best for Chris. Finally to 4x14. This is by far the biggest "Oh shit this is it. This is the beginning of buddie". We find out Eddie changed his will a year ago and has just been sitting on this info. I think Eddie knew back then what it meant but he wasn't in the right mindset to accept what it means so he kept it to himself. I think he finally started allowing himself to go there during treasure hunt. The man was jealous yall. Carla coming back and her comment about doing whats best for him and not chris is his oh shit moment. I think he wouldve broken up with Ana a few days after that if he had the time lol. He gets caught up in the mother/son sl then this poor mf gets shot by a sniper. The way that whole scene was filmed btw was not in a bff way. That was a lover watching his beloved almost die in front of him. Buck again puts himself down and Eddie decides this is the moment. He needs Buck to see how important he is. He wants buck to know how loved he is. So he sits there talking himself up to it and finally lets Buck know just how big of a part he is in Eddie's family. Buck's previous scene is him saying he wants someone who wants him back then here is Eddie saying he needs him...Chris needs him. wtf.

So with S5: I think Eddie knows and Buck has a feeling but he's not sure so what i would do is spend s5 with Eddie basically showing Buck his feelings but not exactly getting in the way of Buck's new relationship because Buck has to be the one to make that choice. Id also have chris feeling the different shift with buck having a gf like he did with Eddie. This newfound info wasnt just dropped on us for a "Aww so sweet" moment. This will business is gonna be a part of a bigger storyline. I'm hoping its with Eddie's family during maybe 5b.

So what I think would be the best timeline for canon buddie is 5a eddie already having either broken up with ana or is gonna break up with her, Buck choosing himself and ending things with Taylor by midseason finale, them bringing in Eddie's family in 5b and maybe then being when Eddie confesses his feelings for Buck. Then 6a we could get them walking on egg shells around each other not really knowing what to do bc this is all so new for both of them. This could bring just the right amount of comedy and angst especially them awkward and flustered around each other at work. A big blowup can happen between them for added angst (maybe an arguement before one of them or both of them is put in danger) then a midseason finale kiss. Then trying to find the balance between their personal relationship and their work relationship during 6b.

I don't know how long Fox shows last but procedurals can last a long time. I'm not sure thats gonna be the case for 911 especially with all the main cast staying that long so i think this would give us at least a whole season (S7) of canon buddie.

As far as then being presented as straight, there's been more seeds planted about buck being bi. A few i can remember off the top of my head: all of 2x1 lmao, maddie's comment about bucks boy crush on eddie, buck hinting at thinking eddie is cute when he thinks maddie is talking about him, the christmas elf, the comments on the instagram livestream, idk if youve watched it or not but TK's comment to Buck in the crossover episode, and like you mentioned Maddie's casual comment about setting him up with Josh. All we really know about Eddie's love life is he married Shannon when they were young and is trying with Ana so it could turn into a whole storyline for him.

I'm so sorry this is so long and took forever but i I hope i actually answered your question and didnt just get lost in rambles lmao.

[twdmusicboxmystery]

Deer Theory - Tractor Add On

Okay, I’ve wanted to post this for a while and am just now getting around to it. This is actually something I owe to @frangipanilove​ for figuring out. She has a whole theory about the Finlandia song and flags and tons of stuff. But I’m just taking one of the things she said that REALLY gave me a lightbulb moment concerning the deer symbol.

First off, let’s recap the deer theme. I’ve always believed that dead deer = live person, and live deer = dead person. The deer carcass Daryl saw in Them represented that Beth lived. We can trace this pattern back to Carl in S2. The deer died, and while it was touch and go for a while, Carl lived.

On the flip side, in 4x14, The Grove, Mica and Lizzie both died, but the deer lived. We specifically see Carol staring at the live deer after she kills Lizzie. This is the deer that she tried to get Mica to shoot, but Mica refused. The idea, I think, is that if Carol could have toughened Mica up enough to shoot the deer, maybe she could have defended herself against Lizzie. But Mica was too sweet and innocent, and therefore had no chance against a homicidal maniac, right?

Some things I’ve struggled with about the deer theory: Carl’s death. There is what looks like a deer underneath him when he gets bitten. The deer is dead, which means Carl SHOULD live, but obviously he didn’t. So, I didn’t so much doubt my theory so much as struggle with how to interpret that particular instance. I figured there was an explanation, but I didn’t know what it was.

Well, @frangipanilove has finally given one to me. In order to explain, I need to briefly switch gears for a minute.

I want you to remember 7x05, Go Getters. In this episode, the Saviors push a green gremlin into Hilltop with music blaring from it. They do it so walkers will go in and get the Hilltoppers. Maggie and Sasha jump into action, and Maggie ultimately crushes the Gremlin with a huge, green and yellow tractor.

So, we automatically saw tons of Beth symbols here. Green gremlin. Which is pretty much a music box on wheels. There was even a metal flip-off finger on it. And for various reasons, it could represent Beth (the music box) being left or trapped in a car.

The thing I struggled with was how to interpret Maggie crushing it with the tractor. If the Gremlin represents Beth, it’s almost like Maggie killed Beth. And I truly don’t think that’s what the writers are going for here. But, much like the deer at Carl’s death, I simply struggled with how to interpret it.

Well, @frangipanilove pointed out that this tractor is probably meant to be a John Deere tractor. No, we don’t see that logo anywhere, but that may be because of legal/copyright issues. If TWD didn’t have permission to use the logo, they’d get sued for doing so. But the colors are right and many TWD sites list it as a John Deere tractor because that’s so obviously what it’s meant to be.

So…tractor = deer. This tractor is a representation of the deer symbol, and the two are probably synonymous.

Why is this important? Well, Maggie used the tractor (deer) to eliminate the threat. She crushed the Gremlin. And what was the threat? Walkers. The music was drawing them.

This was my massive lightbulb moment. Because it put me in mind of 7x12, where Rick falls from the carnival ride, Michonne assumes he’s dead, but he escapes. Why/how did he escape?

Because of the deer.

The walkers munched on the deer, which allowed Rick to escape. 

In fact, as I write this, it makes me think of the Glenn/Nicholas situation in S6. Both Glenn and Nicholas fell into the walker horde, but the walkers munched on Nicholas, allowing Glenn to escape. 

And heaven knows there were RIDICULOUS amounts of Beth symbolism around Glenn. It was a template for what happened to her. So was Rick’s in 7x12.

Another example of this, that doesn’t actually involve a deer, but rather a horse, was with Buttons in 5b. The walkers ate Buttons, rather than focusing on Daryl and Aaron.

Now, I think the whole Buttons situation can be interpreted on about twelve different levels. This is only one of them. But it does make me wonder if horse and deer are somewhat synonymous. 

We’ve seen horses show up to save people multiple times. In 9x05, the white horse allowed Rick to lead the horde away from the communities, saving his people, much like Maggie used the tractor to save Hilltop in 7x05. Morgan found a white horse in 6x16 and used it to save Carol’s life after she was shot by taking her to Hilltop.

But I digress.

So, what does this whole deer = how people are saved from walkers thing mean? Where Beth is concerned, I think it means there will be a deer involved somewhere that allowed her to live. Wherever they left her (probably in a car), how she got away probably has to do with a deer, which distracted the walkers, and allowed her to escape. Just like with Rick.

We’ve always wondered how, exactly, Beth would escape the horde. If she was in the car/trunk and got out, but was surrounded by walkers, how does she get away? 

And it doesn’t really matter. That question doesn’t keep me awake at night or anything. Because it’s whatever the writers came up with, right? Maybe someone saved her. Maybe she climbed a tree. Crawled under the car (like in the Daryl/Aaron/wolf trap situation). 

But I’ll bet there’s a deer involved somewhere, such that the walkers turned to eat the deer, allowing her to escape. That would line up with Rick in 7x12, and also with situation in 7x05 with tractor = deer being the thing that knocked out the danger (coming walkers) and saved everyone.

And THAT means that the deer Daryl saw in 5x12 has much deeper symbolic value than we ever realized. He saw a dead guy near the carcass of the deer, with what looks like bullet wounds to the forehead. This guy is dead, and the deer is dead, but that means that somewhere else in Atlanta, a deer was actually saving Beth.

How about Carl’s death? What does this mean for him?

Well, the deer was already dead when he and Siddiq arrived on the scene. If it had been alive, it probably would have distracted the walkers and Carl wouldn’t have died. He and Siddiq probably wouldn’t have even needed to fight the walkers at all. The walkers would have been occupied and they could have just walked right past them (much like Aaron and Daryl did in 5b when the walkers turned on Buttons).

The idea is, the thing that would have saved Carl was already dead. (A very Shakespearean/Hamlet theme: the only thing that could have saved you already being long-dead, which means you have no hope of triumphing over the situation.)

Okay, I know this is very thematic and cerebral. Sorry about that. But this is the first thing I’ve found that makes the deer at Carl’s death make TOTAL sense to me.

It doesn’t really change any of our Beth/TD theories except to say that I think a deer will be involved somewhere in Beth’s escape. 

Of course, it’s always possible that for her, the deer could be symbolic rather than literal, but I kind of doubt it. It was literal for Rick and Carl and in most of these other situations. Not so much in Go Getters, but if the tractor and the deer (and possibly the horse) are all synonymous symbols anyway, then it hardly matters. Thoughts?

[archerincombat]

*continuing with the long ask trend, I'm so sorry but I see we agree on a lot and I have many rants in me*

Yeah, I love their relationship, but I hated that scene. The lack of trust, plus him all but saying he didn't even care about Buck's health, more that he could be a danger to others. That hurt, even if ultimately it wasn't what he really meant. And I hated how dismissive he was afterwards too. Like he had granted Buck a favor by taking him back when, again, he was posed to WIN that lawsuit, and it was the higher ups' choice to reinstate him, not Bobby's.

The lack of welcome back party, or even welcome back wishes is even sadder after the Red episode. They're seen doing all these little celebrations (to cheer Hen up and then to congratulate her for the "surgery", for example), and yet the only one who actually welcomed him back was Hen, and even then she basically did it on the down low. And nobody congratulated him on making it back even after they all made up!

OMG, I hadn't even thought of connecting the Lena thing this way, but you're absolutely right! I'd call that karma.

And yeah, I love Eddie and especially his evolution in s4 and how supportive he becomes of Buck and his emotional needs, but in s3 he was pretty dismissive. Yeah, I get it was something he grew up hearing and internalizing, but again, I feel like when Buck makes mistakes there's a whole production of people being disappointed but not surprised (typical reactions when he makes bitchy comments) and he always ends up apologizing or being made to look bad, but when it's others acting like dicks (all the comments about his intelligence for example) we never see the reverse, or anyone watching the interaction even looking troubled about it.

Have we actually seen anyone apologize to him? (Honest question, I can't remember if we have). Cause even Abby during 3x18 and his parents in 4x05 never even hint at the words "I'm sorry", and in fact he often is the one who ends up apologizing over his reaction. Now, again, we don't know if those apologies happened off screen (doubtful, the only one I see plausibly happening is Eddie's), but it would have been nice if the show has at least hinted that the characters had talked about it.

You are right, Eddie hit the nail on the head when he said he's not "expendable" as opposed to the others telling him he's not "invincible". But now you wrote the word "reckless" and I have another complaint:

When has Buck been reckless? Impulsive, absolutely. Self-sacrificing, maybe. A daredevil, yes. But (excluding s1 bc I don't remember it that well) his actions have always been either sanctioned by or on Bobby's order except for two occasions (the train derailment and the crane thing in 4x14). Am I remembering wrong? Did he disobey orders any other time? (Yeah, stealing the truck for sex excluded). Others, on the other hand, have disobeyed direct orders/protocol without anybody giving them much grief, or even being congratulated for it (Eddie climbing the house on fire during the blackout, Hen operating on the guy in the ambulance, the well rescue).

I feel like they sometimes still see the impulsive kid from s1, and think they are right because he "always gets hurt", when the three times it happened it was 1, because of a bomber and so not his fault; 2, because of a natural disaster he found himself in and so not his fault; 3, because he had hardware in his leg that reacted with his body in an unexpected way he didn't know he had to look out for, and so, arguably, still not his fault.

That said, I absolutely love how the buddie relationship evolved, and that he now has at least Eddie (and Chris) in his corner. Again no character bashing, and I may be biased bc I love the character, but it's a bit mean to have all these dismissive and disparaging comments towards a character who has been shown to have a lot of insecurities, even if it's for comedic relief.

*that's all for now, I swear. Sorry again!*

Stop apologizing. No one in my family wants to rant about the details with me. Most aren’t even buddie shippers, so you see my dilemma (and my tendency to analyze the shit out of everything gets tiresome) but I’m SO glad for your asks, don’t think otherwise.

You keep hitting the key word on the head. Dismissal, dismissive, whatever you want to call it. Rarely, if ever, do they take Buck seriously. In my opinion, Bobby seems to be the worst at it, and I would say that’s just a generational thing except look at the free reign he gives Eddie. Honestly, though, it might be a caring too much thing, because he treats Athena in a similar way in that fight in 4x13. I just thought of this, so give me a minute to develop that concept, lol.

Maybe it’s because I relate too much to Buck, but it stings a little (a lot) when those disparaging comments are made. And they’re made constantly. Like when Chim asks, “Why don’t you ask Maddie what she wrote for your college essay?”. I know it’s a joke. You know it’s a joke. Buck knows it’s a joke. But Buck’s not dumb. He’s a golden retreiver in literally every aspect, but he’s not dumb.

In my recollection, Maddie and Chim apologize for the Daniel thing. Though I have bone to pick with Chimney’s apology and I’ll elaborate if you want me to. But yeah, no apologies made about the lawsuit come to mind which is anger-inducing.

This is a bit of a tangent, but your “disappointed, but not surprised” comment for some reason made me think of Athena and Buck’s relationship. Athena’s never surprised, but apart from Eddie and Maddie, I feel like she understands Buck the best. Maybe to do with her strained relationship with her own mother.

Because, I mean, we see Buck get in trouble with Athena more times than we can count: the pilot, hospital jail, the call center, when Sue got run over. But she’s never...mean about it. At least, not in a way that I’ve noticed. There’s a fundamental difference between how Athena mothers Buck and how Bobby fathers him that I can’t put into words, but I thought I’d put it out there.

And you drove everything home with your argument about Buck’s ‘recklessness’. I want to clarify that I don’t think Buck is reckless – a daredevil, maybe, when the stakes aren’t high. But that’s the point. When the stakes aren’t high, who cares if he wants to show off? Unless it’s a stupid legal thing, Buck always follows orders. Unless, someone’s life is at stake. Which is exactly how Eddie reacted during the blackout or Hen in the ambulance. Like you said, the only difference is that they get commended for it, and Buck gets reprimanded.

So no, Buck’s not reckless. And looking at the crane scene, I don’t see how anyone could think he is. The adjective that first comes to mind when I think of Buck is tragic. “Characterized by extreme sorrow.” How unimportant do you have to think yourself to make yourself an active target for a sniper because you think you’re the most expendable? How much do you have to hate yourself to take the blame in every single one of your relationships regardless of whose fault it was? There’s something so heartbreaking about Evan Buckley. I feel like though the 118 (mostly Eddie) have evolved enough to look a bit deeper behind the fake smiles and comedic relief, Buck’s insecurities could last for seasons without being resolved.

Hopefully this made sense because it’s late and I did not proof-read, but keep ranting because there’s nothing that can make me type out 500 words in 15 minutes like Evan Buckley can.

[imminent-danger-came]

I might be misremembering but I assumed the "just a story" line in AHiB was referring to the legend of Wukong sealing away DBK, not JTTW/SWK's existence as a whole

I guess if you wanted to you could interpret it that way (and it is totally applicable there), but it also applies to the broader narrative in lmk itself. Jttw is also notably referenced a decent amount throughout the "A Hero is Born" special:

Tang: “The thing you need to understand about the old legends, is that the story is never finished. There maybe be no more pages left to turn, but there’s always more to the journey."

Which, this line by Tang is the first instance of story motif in LMK as a whole. It's then "book ended" by another narration by Tang later in 3x14:

Tang: “The curious thing about legends is the way we can continue to be moved by the same stories. We’re comforted by familiar tales of friendship, courage, redemption. At times, the path of the hero might seem unclear, and the stories chaotic and directionless. Sometimes it may seem as though we’ve ended back where we began, but it’s clear to see how much we’ve grown on the journey—for although the story is over, there’s always room on the shelf for another.”

Like, even if some details don't match and some things changed, the AHiB special is foundational. It's constantly referenced back to in one way or another, and is the first instance of a significant amount of motifs and themes, for example:

Hand Motif

Reflection Motif

Theme: Identity (1) (2) ("You might have that old fool's staff, but you are not the Monkey King." in AHiB -> "Well, I'm not the Monkey King! Okay!" in RoTSQ)

Running Away

Theme: Self Belief ("Just believe in yourself! Even a smidge makes all the difference"/"Nothing is impossible if you just believe in yourself!" -> "It's always my fault!") (1) (2)

Turning Around Motif

Kneeling Motif

So, when thinking about "the story never being finished", it reminds me of MK's recent conflict of wanting things to stay the same, of not wanting to move forward:

MK: “Honestly? I’m kinda liking the world as it is, right now. So...if it could just stay like this, forever? That would be awesome.” Sun Wukong: “Yeah well...forever’s a long time bud...trust me.”

(4x01 Familiar Tales)

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MK: "You ever wish things will just- stay like this, like they are right now?" Sun Wukong: "Pssshhkk, where's the fun in that?"

(4x14 Better Than We Found It)

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Ultimately, MK wants his story to be finished, but that's not how it works. There is no "final chapter" so to speak, there's just life, and you have to keep going and picking up the next book and moving through the next chapter.

I made a whole comic around this idea if you wanted to go look!

But yeah, DBK's sealing is the first instance in a long line where the story "isn't finished" because the seal doesn't hold, and plans move forward. This happens again with LBD and then later with Azure. It can even apply to things like the Samadhi Fire (and most likely the Jade Emperor's Seal in the future)—supposedly, sealing these things away should have been the end of the story, of their story, but it wasn't. So it's interesting to take that line and use it as a sort of framework to view the rest of the show in

[twdmusicboxmystery]

Cabin Theory 2.0

Okay, so here’s my Cabin Theory 2.0. I’ve been wanting to revisit this since I did my 5x09 post a few weeks ago. I realized that the cabin Tyreese stays in with Baby Judith and Martin in 5x01, and the picture of the cabin in 5x09, were probably related. So, I’m going to list the cabins we’ve seen and then talk about similarities between them to try and figure out what this symbol means in the show. You’ll see that there are some interesting implications for the Leah situation.

1. S3 – Rick, Daryl, Michonne, and co run from walkers into a tiny cabin where they find a guy sleeping in there and Rick ultimately kills him. There’s also a dead dog in the cabin, so we’ve long attributed this to early Sirius symbolism.

2. 4x07 – The cabin the Governor and his pals stayed in with all the Native American symbols in it.

3. 4x12 – The Moonshine Shack. I honestly wasn’t sure this one fit the pattern of the others, at first, and wasn’t sure what to do with that. But upon closer inspection, it does. No worries. I’ll talk about it.

4. 4x14 – The cabin Tyreese, Carol, Lizzie, and Mica stayed in, and where Lizzie and Mica died.

5. 5x01 – The cabin Tyreese, Martin, and Baby Judith stayed in while Carol rescued everyone at Terminus.

6. (Not in the show yet, but there’s also the cabin where Emily filmed that we believe will be part of the missing 17 days.)

7. 5x09 – The picture of the cabin in the room where Ty is bitten, that gets blood dripped on it.

8. 6x04 – Eastman’s cabin, where Morgan spends a lot of time in that episode.

9. 7x03 – The cabin Carol lives in after she leaves the Kingdom but before AOW starts.

10. 7x11 – Dwight and Sherry’s old cabin where she leaves her rings and a note for him.

11. 8x11 – The cabin that Father Gabriel and Dr. Carson stay in briefly before being recaptured by the Saviors and Carson’s death. This episode and cabin are chalk full of Beth symbolism.

12. 9x5 - Cabin Rick stops by before he’s blown off the bridge. This was an extremely minor detail, but probably parallels well with Beth’s cabins, and it was purposely placed in the sequence.

13. Leah’s cabin (to be seen in bonus episodes).

I’ve probably missed a few minor instances. I think Aaron was at one this past season briefly, and there’s the place Alpha was killed, and where Negan stashed Lydia. But these are the major ones. And for only 10 seasons, this symbol crops up a LOT.

Okay, a couple of notes before I go on. I’m not going to talk about the cabin from the missing 17 days because we haven’t actually seen that and don’t know what goes on there. So I can’t say if it fits this pattern or not, though I suspect it does. Same with the cabin in Ty’s death scene, which is technically a picture, not an actual cabin. I believe that cabin is a symbol for Beth’s cabin (the one from the missing 17 days) so they are probably synonymous and not knowing what happened there applies to both. Just FYI.

So here are the similarities I’m seeing in different instances:

1. A character staying in the cabin is wrestling with some kind of internal turmoil or conflict. There is often more than once character involved, and both can be wrestling with things, but more often it’s the member of TF or more mainstream character that the cabin is about. If there’s only one character in the cabin, obviously it’s about them. (Don’t worry; I’ll give examples). Their conflict often revolves around an identity crisis of some kind. Who they are, who they want to be, who they will become, etc.

2. Death is involved. Either someone dies in or around the cabin while the character is staying there, or what happens there leads to someone’s death.

3. I honestly think the cabin is the beginning of a character journey or arc. Generally it results in something negative that happens, that the character feels guilt over. Sometimes this is synonymous with the death I mentioned above, but sometimes they’re two different things as well.

4. The character will spend the rest of that journey or arc trying to overcome that thing they’re feeling guilty over. Once they’ve accepted and/or forgiven themselves for it, the arc ends.

5. In each situation, there is a return involved. Either the character returns to someone, or someone returns to them.

So, let’s go through these again.

S3 Cabin: I give slightly shorter shrift to this one, only because it’s S3 and Gimple wasn’t in charge, yet. That said, it does check most of the criteria. The conflict there was short lived. It was weather to kill the guy or not because he was being loud and putting everyone’s life in danger. So there’s the death. I don’t think anyone felt overly guilty about it. However, in terms of character arcs, especially with the dead dog, what we see right after this is Daryl reuniting with Merle for the first time since he disappeared in S1. So we definitely have a return. Soon after is the episode “Home,” where Daryl comes to realize where he really belongs. And those are all themes we see around Beth. Just saying. So, return = Merle.

Overall, it doesn’t fit everything, but again, with Gimple only being a junior writer on the show back then, it may have just been less heavy-handed than most of these other examples.

4x07- Gov’s cabin: This was more or less the beginning of him returning to brutality which ends with him bulldozing the prison and losing his own life. Plenty of death comes out of it, including that of his own men and Hershel. His turmoil is about whether he’ll continue to be “Brian” or go back to being the Governor. His arc ends when Rick/Michonne/Lily kill him at the prison. That’s the return. Also, he’s been gone from the prison and TF for months and presumed dead. This is the beginning of his return to their lives.

4x12 – Moonshine Shack: As I said, at first I didn’t think it fit the pattern, because it didn’t end up being terribly negative. No death came directly out of it. But I think this was kind of the mother of all cabins. It was a much longer game, so it took a lot longer to see the entire pattern. 

The emotional turmoil in this episode is extremely obvious, especially to our fandom, so I’ll leave it at that. The real trick is that there isn’t any immediate death that comes out of it. In this case, I believe its Beth’s “death” that comes out of it. We don’t often link that directly to the moonshine shack, but I believe the writers do. Everything is cause and effect for them. I think the emotional breakthroughs she had with Daryl led to her being stronger, wanting to stand up to Dawn, and that led to her getting shot. And that is obviously the negative thing Daryl then feels guilty about. 

You could argue this arc ended with Coda, though most of us know better. When Daryl looked at Glenn’s painting with Lydia, he smiled, which shows that he’s forgiven himself for that. But his smile still slipped when he looked at Beth. So for Daryl, nothing’s over yet.

4x14 – Carol, Ty, Lizzie, Mica: The deaths here are obviously Lizzie and Mica’s, and they occurred at the cabin itself. Obviously that’s the negative thing both Carol and Ty felt super guilty about. But what was Carol wrestling with here, before the deaths? It was her guilt over killing Karen. She needed to come clean with Ty. This was the beginning of her journey that didn’t end, imo, until she saved Henry and married Ezekiel. That’s when she finally forgave herself for all the children who have died around her, including Sophia, Lizzie, Mica, and Sam. The return is a little muddled here, but what happens at the cabin prompts them to leave, which helps them return to TF, rather than stay apart from them. So it leads to reunions.

5x01 – The cabin Tyreese, Martin, and Baby Judith stayed in while Carol rescued everyone at Terminus. This is the instance that helped me figure all this out, and I covered it in some detail in my 5x09 post. In the cabin in 5x01, Martin was razzing Ty about being a “good” guy who saves babies. He kept saying that being good like that would bring death, and Ty didn’t want to accept that. So his turmoil was about whether to stay a good guy, or become more brutal and kill Martin. See? Identity crisis. He ends up leaving Martin alive and lying to Carol about it (for which he’ll later feel guilty) and this leads to Bob’s death. His arc, obviously, ended in 5x09 when he forgave himself, and then succumbed to the walker bite. TF returns at the end of this episode and Sasha and Tyreese reunite.

6x04 – Eastman’s cabin, where Morgan spends a lot of time in that episode. This one is about Morgan. He’s obviously wrestling with himself and his dogma throughout the entire episode. He’s still in his crazy state of mind at the beginning, but Eastman helps heal him. The death is Eastman’s himself, and Morgan does have some guilt about it. (There’s also Tabitha the goat.) This is the beginning of the Morgan we see in S5 on, where he follows Eastman’s philosophies. I honestly think this arc has ended now, as he has slightly different beliefs now, in Fear. At the end, Morgan begins his journey to return to Rick.

7x03 - The cabin Carol lives in after she leaves the Kingdom but before AOW starts. Here, Carol is wrestling with the deaths of the children around her. This is slightly different than in 4x14. Remember there, I said she was wrestling with the fact that she’d killed Karen and David. But her guilt over the children started there. Here, it just continues. The death is Benjamin’s (Henry’s older brother). Remember, Zeke brings him to her when he gets shot, and he dies on her kitchen table. Her guilt, though, comes less from his death and more from Abraham’s and Glenn’s. When Morgan tells her about them, you can tell she feels guilty for not having been there, and it prompts her to go to Ezekiel and join the war effort.

7x11 - Dwight and Sherry’s old cabin where she leaves her rings and a note for him. Dwight is dealing with the loss of Sherry and the fact that he’s become someone she doesn’t recognize anymore. (Identity crisis).  Plenty of deaths follow, but the most specific one is that of Dr. Carson at the Sanctuary, who Dwight frames. His guilt comes from following Negan at all, which leads him to turn spy for TF. This guilt arc continues until Daryl lets him go to search for Sherry.

8x11 – The cabin that Father Gabriel and Dr. Carson stay in briefly before being recaptured by the Saviors. This one, most directly, is about Father Gabriel. He’s dealing with physical things (loss of his eyesight) and also a crisis of faith. The death is of Dr. Carson, who dies outside the cabin at the end. This arc, for Gabriel, lasts, I believe, until he becomes the stronger, more confident leader we see now. Back when Jadis and Rick disappeared, he hadn’t become the man he is now, yet. It must have happened sometime during the 6 year time jump. Which is interesting, given that he found love in that time. (I have an Ask in my inbox about this and how Gabriel and Rosita are actually a foreshadow of Beth and Daryl. Stay tuned for that.

Okay, so let’s just recognize that, especially as there are return symbols around all of these, massive Beth symbolism at most of them, and a cabin in the missing scenes from S5, this is obviously a Beth thing. I think the cabin we see when they finally show us those missing scenes will symbolize the beginning of Beth’s arc away from TF, which will last until she reunites with them.

9x05 - Rick’s cabin: This obviously represented the big of his journey away from TF and into the CRM. The death and negative events that come out of it are, for now at least, obviously his own. This parallels almost exactly with Beth and the moonshine shack because, in this case, we KNOW he’s alive, but the other members of TF don’t. And of course there will probably be more deaths and negative stuff for him once he’s away from TF, but we haven’t seen any of that, yet. 

So how about Leah’s cabin?

Well, it seems obvious what Daryl will be wrestling with: figuring out where he belongs, especially with Rick gone. (Identity crisis). But my question is about the death. Spoilers say Leah has a son who dies, but the spoilers are so muddled and many of them contradict each other, it’s hard to know what will actually happen with that. Will that be a source of guilt for Daryl? Maybe have something to do with the scene in the trailer where he’s screaming? Maybe.

I think it’s equally possible, though, that something about what happens here will reach across to when Leah shows up again and maybe something tragic will happen then. This is what really got me intrigued about this cabin motif. Because yes, it’s true that in some cases (ie. Father Gabriel/Dwight) the deaths that resulted were of minor characters. But MOST of the cabins led to major tragedy for team family, and I’m wondering if the same will be true of the Leah situation. Especially as this concerns Daryl, who is a much more major character than FG or Dwight, I have a hard time believing that the tragedy coming out of it will be limited to the adopted son of a character no one really cares about. I’m just saying.

Of course this is all conjecture until we see the episode (and possibly S11). But it’s something to chew on. And it kind of feeds in to the question of whether or not Leah may end up being villainous. I’ll conjecture more about that in a day or two. ;D

Thoughts?