#'but how do you KNOW pwASPD think like that?' ask me that again and look into my eyes.

[wawawawawawawawawawawawawa]

ANOTHER really sad thing about izaya is that he's lying to everyone around him and also himself that the clear signs of mental illness he has are all intentional choices he makes that he doesn't suffer from and in fact actively desires having

which is why i personally think that ASPD makes The Most Sense (PERSONALLY) for him to have, because people treat the disorder as inherently Worse Than practically every other mental illness out there, just like how everyone sees izaya as uniquely worse than everyone else in drr's cast despite them ALL being fucked up

also because pretty much everyone (including, dissapointingly, wide swaths of psychologists) believes that people with ASPD don't suffer from their symptoms and that the symptoms of ASPD only hurt those around the person with it, and never the person themselves. so if you HAVE ASPD and have the gall to suffer at all, there arises this.... phenominon, where you either deny that you have ASPD or deny that you're suffering. usually, one will lead to the other: first, you'll deny the suffering, and therefore act like its less that your whims are being influenced by an illness and more that they're conscious choices on your part. and then, since they're all conscious on your part, well, can you even be sure you have ASPD? you're choosing to be like this! therefore it's not ASPD, that implies it's something that you're fighting against, not something you like!

and from there it just feeds off itself in perpetuity.

so idk it seems like whats going on with izaya. now ofc ASPD isnt the only mental illness that can cause this rationalization, but it's one of very few that i consider to be uniquely set up for it, since practically fucking EVERYBODY buys into the worldview to make it possible

Got back into Durarara!! recently, and it's really funny to me that everything that seemed cool/kind of sinister about Izaya when I watched it in highschool vs. as an adult just seems really funny now.

Like, this is a 23 year old man with an untreated mental illness who runs around the city in a giant fur coat meddling with people's lives in the most destructive way possible while trying to avoid a debt collector who throws the nearest traffic sign at him every time they get within 5 miles of each other. He will not shut up about the gang war he's been setting up but nobody takes him seriously. His only friends are an borderline-yandere doctor who literally hung up on him when he got stabbed and the most unhinged high school student to ever exist who for some reason has not figured out that he maybe shouldn't trust this guy even though everyone around him is shouting it at him 24/7. He knows Russian for some reason and risks getting murdered to buy his favorite food.

Like, somebody get this man a prescription and stop trusting everything he says instead of letting him run around unsupervised

[aspd-culture]

i’m kind of confused as another system, ik you said you might just delete asks but i hope this is okay bc i’m genuinely trying to understand your point and sincerely confused and asking for clarification

i see your point about neurological disorders being hardware and stuff but at the same time like. i’m autistic and i was diagnosed with autism because i display autistic symptoms. one of my alters displays no autistic symptoms and would not be diagnosed with autism if he individually was tested. so how does it make sense to say he’s autistic?

in the same vein one of my alters displays all the symptoms for dpd and was diagnosed with it when he was out while being tested, but i display none of them and don’t relate to it at all. how does it make sense to say i have dpd?

we share the same brain yes but if one of us shows and relates to no symptoms of a disorder then imo it doesn’t track at all to say we still have it because the host or brain or other alters do. same vein as i’m anorexic but if another alter comes out and has zero issue with eating or the concept of food it wouldn’t make sense to call them anorexic, but it doesn’t make me less anorexic

This one was in the drafts. I really don’t want to get into this again, but I think it’s only fair to post it as I had taken the time to write this anon and answer so I don’t feel I can say “this is too much for me to deal with” when all I need to do is format it and hit post. As mentioned previously, I will ignore or delete asks if they only pertain to this discourse (unrelated in any other way to ASPD) at my discretion. I pretty much never have had to do that, just a couple ableist people telling me how terrible pwASPD are. I don’t intent to do it often, and don’t want to do it at all, but I won’t drain myself to continue explaining why alters inside the same body cannot physically alter the structure of the brain by switching out.

Not displaying symptoms is different than not having them. A symptom holder is an alter who shows the most symptoms of the disorder, generally because they end up pushed to the front in situations that flare the disorder. But the symptoms are not occurring because that alter is out, that alter is out because those symptoms are occurring and that alter knows best how to handle them.

Just like an alter who fronts during a certain kind of abuse every time it happens is not the only one *being* abused, the whole system is, an alter who takes on the symptoms of a neurological condition is not the only one who has it.

Beyond that, it's difficult to notice internally whether symptoms of neurological disorders disorders are present. Most people making this declaration that their alter doesn’t have the disorder are going off the concept that they perceive an alter to not have symptoms of the disorder, ignoring that before getting diagnosed, they likely also believed they had no symptoms of that disorder, at least for a time, or even worse, that the alter shows symptoms, but not enough to qualify for a diagnosis. That diagnosis is not individual, it is related to every alter using the brain. Showing different symptoms of a neurological disorder at different times is completely typical and does not mean you don’t have it, because different situations stimulate different parts of the brain and thus based on the situation the person will be affected differently by that disorder that they very much still have. If anyone on the opposite side of this discourse happens to have a good professional who knows about their system and their neurodivergence, try and ask them if you stop being autistic just because you switched and now aren’t noticing symptoms.

If you look into autism, you'll find it is literally a difference in the brain (neurodivergence). At the end of the day, symptoms or not, if you use an autistic brain, you are autistic, because autism is not actually a set of symptoms. Autism is a difference in the brain that we notice and diagnose using symptoms. Hence why it is a spectrum where two autistic people can literally have entirely different symptoms with no overlap. The same goes for any neurological difference - it is *not* a set of symptoms, we use those symptoms to recognize and identify the difference in their brain.

Anorexia, however, is not always neurological. I think it can be, but it is also sometimes a body image issue or a trauma issue, etc. So yes, some alters can be anorexic while others are not.

Let me say it another way and see if this helps make sense of it. If a system gets accommodations in school like longer test taking or more time to turn in homework, does the teacher have the responsibility to remove those and ignore the IEP or 504 plan because said alter shows few enough symptoms that they wouldn’t be considered to have that disorder alone? Or are those disability accommodations legally protected at all times regardless of who is out?

Should a system that has work accommodations for a disorder lose those if another alter is out? Should your boss be able to, if you have accommodations that say for example that you have more leeway on being late to work, be allowed to ask you who was out and punish you like they would a fully neurologically abled person if it was an alter capable of getting there on time?

Or if the body of a system has,a degenerative brain disease, and an alter who shows less symptoms of it were to end up frontstuck, should they stop taking their medication? Or do they still have a disease affecting the brain that they need to keep treating regardless of who is out? The same goes for Autism, ASPD, ADHD, any disorder that affects the physical function of the brain since they all have the same one.

And if you think they should stop taking meds or lose legal rights to accommodations, where’s the line? Who gets to say if the alter is symptomatic enough? It would be so messy and confusing if those things were allowed because they make no sense. Same brain = same neurology = same neurological disorders.

It's getting frustrating repeating myself here over and over, which is the point of me saying I may delete asks about this specific discourse if I don’t have the spoons for it.

Plain text below the cut:

This one was in the drafts. I really don’t want to get into this again, but I think it’s only fair to post it as I had taken the time to write this anon and answer so I don’t feel I can say “this is too much for me to deal with” when all I need to do is format it and hit post. As mentioned previously, I will ignore or delete asks if they only pertain to this discourse (unrelated in any other way to ASPD) at my discretion. I pretty much never have had to do that, just a couple ableist people telling me how terrible pwASPD are. I don’t intent to do it often, and don’t want to do it at all, but I won’t drain myself to continue explaining why alters inside the same body cannot physically alter the structure of the brain by switching out.

Not displaying symptoms is different than not having them. A symptom holder is an alter who shows the most symptoms of the disorder, generally because they end up pushed to the front in situations that flare the disorder. But the symptoms are not occurring because that alter is out, that alter is out because those symptoms are occurring and that alter knows best how to handle them.

Just like an alter who fronts during a certain kind of abuse every time it happens is not the only one *being* abused, the whole system is, an alter who takes on the symptoms of a neurological condition is not the only one who has it.

Beyond that, it's difficult to notice internally whether symptoms of neurological disorders disorders are present. Most people making this declaration that their alter doesn’t have the disorder are going off the concept that they perceive an alter to not have symptoms of the disorder, ignoring that before getting diagnosed, they likely also believed they had no symptoms of that disorder, at least for a time, or even worse, that the alter shows symptoms, but not enough to qualify for a diagnosis. That diagnosis is not individual, it is related to every alter using the brain. Showing different symptoms of a neurological disorder at different times is completely typical and does not mean you don’t have it, because different situations stimulate different parts of the brain and thus based on the situation the person will be affected differently by that disorder that they very much still have. If anyone on the opposite side of this discourse happens to have a good professional who knows about their system and their neurodivergence, try and ask them if you stop being autistic just because you switched and now aren’t noticing symptoms.

If you look into autism, you'll find it is literally a difference in the brain (neurodivergence). At the end of the day, symptoms or not, if you use an autistic brain, you are autistic, because autism is not actually a set of symptoms. Autism is a difference in the brain that we notice and diagnose using symptoms. Hence why it is a spectrum where two autistic people can literally have entirely different symptoms with no overlap. The same goes for any neurological difference - it is *not* a set of symptoms, we use those symptoms to recognize and identify the difference in their brain.

Anorexia, however, is not always neurological. I think it can be, but it is also sometimes a body image issue or a trauma issue, etc. So yes, some alters can be anorexic while others are not.

Let me say it another way and see if this helps make sense of it. If a system gets accommodations in school like longer test taking or more time to turn in homework, does the teacher have the responsibility to remove those and ignore the IEP or 504 plan because said alter shows few enough symptoms that they wouldn’t be considered to have that disorder alone? Or are those disability accommodations legally protected at all times regardless of who is out?

Should a system that has work accommodations for a disorder lose those if another alter is out? Should your boss be able to, if you have accommodations that say for example that you have more leeway on being late to work, be allowed to ask you who was out and punish you like they would a fully neurologically abled person if it was an alter capable of getting there on time?

Or if the body of a system has,a degenerative brain disease, and an alter who shows less symptoms of it were to end up frontstuck, should they stop taking their medication? Or do they still have a disease affecting the brain that they need to keep treating regardless of who is out? The same goes for Autism, ASPD, ADHD, any disorder that affects the physical function of the brain since they all have the same one.

And if you think they should stop taking meds or lose legal rights to accommodations, where’s the line? Who gets to say if the alter is symptomatic enough? It would be so messy and confusing if those things were allowed because they make no sense. Same brain = same neurology = same neurological disorders.

It's getting frustrating repeating myself here over and over, which is the point of me saying I may delete asks about this specific discourse if I don’t have the spoons for it.

[aspd-culture]

alright. either all of you need to stop being so god damn relatable, or i need to reevaluate my entire life and see a doctor.

... i do have an (informal) NPD diagnosis, though, so i have no idea where that line is drawn since i know they can have some similarities, i think? so i might as well ask: do you or any followers have any info to share on how to differentiate between NPD and NPD+ASPD?

aspd-culture is

Yep! I can definitely help with that. A major characteristic of ASPD is self-esteem that is affected by very in-the-moment things; for example, if I am playing a video game and doing well, my brain will be pumping me full of good self esteem - "I am so cool and I may not be good at this game usually but if anyone saw me right now they would think I am such a good gamer everyone look at me I am getting a free trial of being a god" - but then, just as fast, if I mess one thing up I will spiral downwards into believing I am so bad at games that I should never touch one again, lest anyone ever have to witness the horror that is my terrible lack of gaming skills. This goes for pretty much anything including weird things like feeling better than everyone because I am forcing my body to stay awake even though it is tired while everyone else is controlled by their flesh vessels. This ego is also affected by other symptoms, so if I am successful at lying or manipulating, I am more likely to have an extremely elevated self esteem in that moment, and the opposite if I get caught doing one of those things.

Meanwhile with NPD, there is a somewhat more stable, episodic self esteem wherein for long periods of time there will be elevated self esteem with episodes of ego crashes. In the case of the two of them, anecdotally I have heard that those ego crashes become very easy to cause by things that would affect self esteem in aspd, and that those crashes are sometimes easier to recover from by exploiting ASPD's symptom based self esteem (not allowing yourself to get bored, being manipulative, successfully lying, etc).

So, if someone just had ASPD their arrogance would be more temporary and less intense (I am doing so well at this game my teammates are so lucky to be playing with me while I am doing this well), while if they had NPD it would be more intense (I am the best at this video game. My teammates are lucky to have met me, and I should invite them to a party - gaming term for a digital group used to make sure you're on the same team during team games for those who don't know - so that they can continue to benefit from me carrying this entire team and maybe if I do they'll tell me how great I am doing) and if they had both, they might think something in-between (I am the best at this game, my teammates should feel lucky that this game requires teams so they get to play with me. Maybe I'll invite them to a party so that I don't risk having a crappy team next game because then I won't want to play anymore and deal with an ego crash, and maybe if I do, they'll point out how my double kill basically won the last round for us).

NPD also often thrives on attention from other people, whilst ASPD comes with a disinterest and sometimes outright disgust or fear at the idea of interaction with people outside of what is necessary for convenience. Both tend to view relationships as transactional to some degree, but pwASPD are generally looking for more tangible and/or practical benefits from people, whilst pwNPD are generally looking for the good feelings they get from attention and praise from others. I don't have much info on how this specific symptom looks in people who have both.

A big one is that whilst pwNPD may disregard others' rights, feelings, opinions, safety, etc in favor of their own, pwASPD are more likely to disregard both others' and our own rights and safety in favor of avoiding boredom and/or gaining something. People with just NPD are unlikely to consistently disregard their own rights or safety whilst doing so is a part of diagnostic criteria for people with ASPD. Someone with both may think they are invulnerable due to their NPD, and because of that put themselves in situations that are dangerous even though that is a risk to themselves because they believe they will be able to charm their way out of the situation should it go poorly, or may disregard their own safety but never disregard their own rights.

PwNPD have a tendency towards jealousy and envy that is not as prevalent in ASPD, whilst pwASPD have a tendency toward impulsivity and irresponsibility that is not as prevalent in NPD.

Both cause a tendency to lie to and manipulate others for their own gain or to avoid their own loss, tend to come with low to no affective empathy (as well as cognitive empathy, sympathy, and compassion in some with the disorder, although many people eith either or both have some or all of these outside of affective empathy), and a fear or mistrust of others' intent. Both can also cause issues forgiving other people and can lead to intense but short-lived serious relationships (for example, getting engaged to or moving in with people quickly over and over, but not actually staying together long enough to get married).

ASPD causes issues managing anger and boredom that can sometimes lead to being seen as aggressive by others, whilst NPD causes issues managing self-esteem while alone that can sometimes lead to issues with dependency on others.

I am not an expert on NPD as I do not have it, so if any of this information is inaccurate for NPD (not that you personally don't experience it, but that I am entirely wrong about something) pwNPD feel free to let me know and I will correct it. Also feel free to add on anything I missed to help anon!

Edit: Correction from replies. Thank you!/gen