#|| nO OFFENSE THIS IS A HIGHLY BLESSED THREAD!!!!!

[a-long-walk-in-the-forest]

Sasuke’s mercury degree exploration

As I’ve already mentioned in my sasuke astrology analysis posts, Sasuke likely has his mercury in leo. His mercury was one of the planets where I had absolutely no clue about the degree since based on his sun (and if it’s in leo), his mercury could be from 0 degrees all the way to 28 degrees. I tried to have a look at aspects with other planets whose degree range, I had narrowed down but It didn’t really help much. Now that I’ve had a look at interpretations for each degree though, I’ve managed to narrow it down a bit. Bellow are the interpretations for the degrees I narrowed it down to. 

The descriptions come from the pdf I mentioned in my previous post.

12-13:

It indicates a person of firm and steadfast character; one who will resolutely hold to his own beliefs and principles, though it be to his disadvantage. In some ways the mind will be precocious and there will he some degree of self assertion shown; but, whatever the native may determine upon as the right thing to do will assuredly be done if within the compass of resolute striving. It is a degree of CONSTANCY.

good and bad features of an extreme steadfastness and positivism; on one hand, firmness, constancy, sturdiness, endurance in exertion and a sense of phenomenal reality; on the other hand, stubbornness, restiveness, pigheadedness, hypercritical skepticism and unappeasable lustfulness. As a result, the sources of income and means of subsistence are lastingly assured—nay, too lastingly— which might hinder and thwart progress, even mobility in general. There is no enthusiasm, no spiritual urge, no faith in men or in the future, not to speak of faith in God. The character is, therefore, skittish, sullen, sometimes cynical, often unpleasant on account, or in spite of, the fact that the native professes very firm principles and sticks to them. Whatever his luck, the subject never feels happy and is therefore in a state of constant dissatisfaction.

Denotes dissatisfaction. One who never takes anything for granted, or on trust. A skeptical person; a quibbler; hypercritical; one disposed to consider “all men liar.” save himself; a most disagreeable, querulous, cantankerous, and quarrelsome person.

Music, a degree of beauty; strong beliefs and disbeliefs; fortunate but restless; intentions are good; may be an orphan or may care for a parent or other relative; usually has special talent for some work where a well-trained eye and hand, plus his idealism and artistic tastes, enable him to excel al others; right heart chamber.

Denotes one of rugged, conservative, and patriotic nature who will be blessed with the goods of the world and who will use his blessings well. His position in life will be distinguished and his sincerity will command respect even from his enemies. He carries about him a fine and pure aura which benefits all who come within its radiations. It is a symbol of Exaltation.

14-15:

It indicates a person of very superior ability in some special direction; one in whom the power of government will reside; a mind somewhat ambitious, but conscious of its own powers which are of no common order so that no unjust advantage is taken. In some sphere of life the native be an imposing figure, or may do something which may call for wide recognition. Fame and power attend this degree. It is one of SUPERIORITY.

A veritable type of the ordinary man of the day; fond of pleasure, and enters heartily into the fashionable amusements of the age; a stickler for the conventional and the popular.

Inborn power and superiority over others; whether bodily or moral or else, other pointers in the horoscope must decide. The native is conscious of his own worth, whatever it might be. In well- developed beings this degree will nurture lofty aspirations and inner pride; in the corner ones It will lead to vain ambitions and display. Something special will single out the subject anyhow, be it for good or evil, through bright mental gifts or spiritual prominence, through money or even brute force; in what manner and how far will depend, as mentioned above, on the other threads in the astrological pattern. But whoever is born under this sign is very likely to become a ruler in some sense and to have the makings for it as well; he is likely to couple his inborn power with kindness and human warmth, and to win many friends. This can even go so far as to entangle all mental activities in social life, in which case the native is in for a more or less wide popularity as the soul of dancing patties and the organizer of merrymaking. Barring indications to the contrary, travels in connection with friendships or social engagements can be foreseen, as for instance on friends’ or relatives’ invitation, journeys undertaken in order to assist friends, etc.

Music; attainment and success; good reasoning power; original ideas; easily aroused but readily appeased; sometimes provoked at people who heed the loud speaker rather than the calm voice of reason; a worker with great power of perseverance; carnival area ( has moments when one has to let it out); right atrium.

Denotes one who is forced to labor hard for the greater part of his life, but who contains within himself some brilliant gifts, one of which will progress and bring him into fame. It is a symbol of Creeping.

15-16

It indicates a person of a head strong and rash disposition, extremely given to impulse; difficult to restrain; a formidable opponent and a warm- hearted,, generous friend. The native is effusive, enthusiastic and restless, but capable of subsisting upon small fare and in all probability he will be poor though in some sense eminent. It is a degree of IMPULSE.

An impulsive, enthusiastic and demonstrative nature, impatient of discipline and advice, stubborn and foolhardy, hard to repress and to check.

An open-hearted, generous and affectionate friend, he will make an uncomfortable and often dangerous enemy. To all this he adds the utmost frugality, thanks to which he might bear the distress his unripeness is more than likely to bring upon him. Potentially a man of many sports, endowed with a lopsided but bright and sometimes outstanding intelligence; he is conspicuous for the utmost development of some of his gifts and the utter infancy of other sides of his being, which exposes him to the risk of wasting his mental power on childish trifles. There will be a tendency to a large body size; great head, broad hands, tall stature, etc.

Denotes one who possesses great abilities; a mind, which, if rightly directed, could accomplish, or at least assist in bringing about, great and beneficial changes on the earth. But in place of this, he condescends to employ his time and his energies in the pursuit of what is childish, whimsical, and worthless; by which he not infrequently makes himself the laughing-stock of his contemporaries.

Attainment and success; affectionate, demonstrative, and frank; always a student, interested in many things; a good teacher of art, science, or philosophy; seeks an answer to the meaning of life and usually discovers that the road to attainment is not the road to happiness; left atrium.

Denotes one who in the midst of threats, difficulties, and oppositions raises himself to a position of dignity and responsibility, and the stings of envy will follow him. He will see many pass through this world of matter before he receives the call, and will keenly feel and deplore his errors. He may find that the road to power is not the road to happiness. It is a symbol of Vexation.

16-17

It denotes one who will be noted for his wide and prolonged travels. One whose life will be beset with dangers of a physical nature; one who will leave a humble home and become a prominent figure in a foreign country. The character is stubborn, persevering, very vindictive and revengeful; not ungrateful but never forgetting injuries. The native will be somewhat fond of parade and self-advertisement, and in the end will be highly successful in life. It is a degree of JOURNEYING.

An extremely outstanding personality. The native will cut out a place for himself in all he does, supported by a fierce, altogether indomitable nature, an inexhaustible energy, an exceptional resistance to exertion, a toughness, a sturdiness and a steadfastness ready to stand any test. On the reverse side of the coin appear petty formality, headstrongness, bad manners, a wild roughness and sometimes even ferocity. Mindful of benefits as well as of injuries, he simply cannot dispense with the glee of revenge. Strangely enough, though fond of display and notoriety, he is apt to turn a deaf ear to the often vicious taunts and snubs leveled at his surly character, as only what may harm him is an offense in his eyes, and such complaints against him as may end by enhancing his renown as an awe-inspiring being are far from displeasing to him. Lucky and endowed with an inventive turn of mind, he will reap abroad the success to which his long toils and his often gigantic works entitle him. Material danger might, however, lie in wait for him, either on his journeys or on his undertakings and might stand in his way to wealth and renown.

Denotes one whom you may kill, but never conquer; nor will he be induced to adopt willingly the tricky policies of modern civilization. He has a life of his own, a sphere of his own, and pleasures of his own. He may be designated coarse and impolite, but such epithets make little or no impression on him.

A person of considerable ability; often considered odd or peculiar; cares little about the world’s opinion; does his own work in his won way; a careful speculator; good sense of perception; right auricle.

Denotes one of understanding and power of purpose who is gifted with fine perception and a lively imagination. As a theorist he is generally correct in his deductions and he can quickly clothe his thoughts in material dress. It is a symbol of Knowledge.

21-22

It denotes that the native is his own enemy, and that he will suffer through want of care in his actions. Apart from this, which arises from a certain native innocence. he will be in danger of injuries in his own house and through his own kindred. The life is fraught with dangers of an incendiary character, and he should avoid risks of personal injury as much as possible. In business or profession he will be supplanted. It is a degree of INJURY.

This denotes one who feels most honored when he most serves. To serve in his day some of the numerous wants of a suffering humanity is the end and aim of his life. A transcendental sun impinges this degree with its rays. Its nature is Mercurial.

As we had to remark above (e.g., about 19 degree Leo, 24 deg Taurus, etc.) this degree also possesses such a transcendent influence that no soul less than heavenly can bear it with impunity. Such enthusiasm and blindness to the world’s mean ways, such candid artlessness as are induced by this sign can only be-without any possible compromise-the mark of a saint or that of a nincompoop. The native is his own worldly fortune’s worst enemy and he will let those who ought to respect him most fleece him and cover him with abuse.

This denotes one who feels most honored when he most serves. To serve in his day some of the numerous wants of a suffering humanity is the end and aim of his life. A transcendental sun impinges this degree with its rays. Its nature is Mercurial.

Astrology, medical fields; homicidal tendency; feels honored in being able to serve others; contemporaries who follow the same line are often jealous of this person’s ability and reputation; left auricle.

Denotes one who is in danger of being held in restraint of some kind and of being moved to different places at the will of others. There is no suggestion of unkind treatment, but there is that the native is not a free agent. He should never permit others to gain an influence over him in any way. He is very mediumistic, but can be controlled from the visible as he can from the invisible. It is a symbol of Restriction.

[williamsockner]

I saw your comments about country music on the Chicks thread and I’m curious about your opinion. I grew up on country music and feel like “9/11 killed country” is pretty valid. But I’d love to hear your take because I miss it [country music].

Hi! So, my major issue with the “9/11 killed country music” post, as someone who listens to a ton of musical genres but has both a history of and soft spot for country, is that it’s a reductive, cherrypicking way to define an entire massive genre based on a handful of individual songs and high-profile artists that had their heyday at this point nearly two decades ago (Toby Keith, Big & Rich, etc.). It’s a very slanted read on pop radio country, and it’s not even remotely accurate to quantifying the broader genre.

It’s just bizarre that people allow their idea of the whole genre to be molded by a spate of reactionary right-wing songs that found traction immediately after 9/11 and then largely lost dominance in the genre. Most country songs on the radio are not about jingoism - they’re still about a lover done you wrong, or drinking after a hard day’s work, or finding happiness without much money, or teenagers in love, or about the tragedies of alcoholism and domestic abuse, or appreciating your small town, as so much of this genre has always been. If you look at the top 10 right now, there isn’t a patriot song in the whole thing (although two of the songs have overtly Christian references, but that’s always been part of country music too). The militaristic patriotism songs tend to just be one or two songs a year that end up in heavy rotation around the fourth of July and in September, but they get outsized attention comparatively because they’re so offensively grating.

And even after 9/11, for the last two decades most country songs on the radio still haven’t been “nationalist pop with twang”. Yes, in the 2000’s we had “Courtesy of the Red White and Blue” and “Where Were You When the World Stopped Turning” and “American Soldier”, but this was also LGBT+ supporter Shania Twain’s* and avowed Democrat Tim McGraw’s imperial phases, the era of “Before He Cheats” and “Concrete Angel” and “Red Ragtop”, the years that made a Blake Shelton song about breaking out of prison his calling card and gave Miranda Lambert a massive hit with a song about burning her abuser’s house down.

This isn’t to say that country is progressive. Country music has a major problem with being dominated by straight white men, and even straight white women spent several of the last years underrepresented** (to say nothing of LGBT+ artists and artists of color). But that issue predates 9/11, as does the whitewashing of country’s history; the aforementioned Ken Burns documentary does go into how white country musicians forced black musicians out of the scene and erased their accomplishments going back decades before 2001. “Proud to Be an American” and “God Bless the USA”, for the record, were recorded in 1980’s.

Country, as a genre, does lean more conservative than many other genres, but it still holds a wide array of political viewpoints, even on the pop charts. I’m not just talking about indie alt-country darlings, although I’ll get to those in a minute - even pop country megastars are a varied bunch. Eric Church, who currently has a hit on the top 10, just dropped a scathing track called “Stick That in Your Country Song” that cusses out underfunding schools and mass incarceration; Luke Bryan got a #1 hit in 2017 with a chorus that included “I believe you love who you love and ain’t nothing you should ever be ashamed of”; Carrie Underwood pinned an entire album and tour cycle around a single about escaping domestic abuse and recently released a song criticizing gun proliferation; Kacey Musgraves won a CMA for her hit single where she criticizes slut-shaming and encourages women to “kiss lots of boys or kiss lots of girls if that’s something you’re into”, then she won a Grammy for an album where she sings about smoking weed and dedicates an empowerment anthem to the LGBT+ community; Miley Cyrus had an explicitly bisexual song on her most recent “back to her roots” country album; Tim McGraw discussed running for governor of Tennessee as a Democrat and threw his support behind Obama way back during Obama’s 2008 campaign. I’ve been relatively unplugged from country radio for the last few years, but this is all stuff relatively off the top of my head.

And that moves us to alt-country. I die a little inside whenever someone says that they “just mean radio country” when they say they “hate country music”, because alt-country is just the tits. It just is. It’s the best. If someone says they listen to rock music, we don’t assume they only mean Nickelback and Shinedown - and yet somehow we’ve shut country out so much that we don’t even consider that there’s an entire world of the genre beyond what charts - and that world is rich and powerful and thoughtful and as valid a form of music as any other genre. Some favorites contemporary alt-country artists of mine (including some songs about immigration, opiate addiction, protesting war, sexism, agricultural exploitation, homophobia, one bashing Trump directly and even one about female cunnilingus): Courtney Marie Andrews, Ruston Kelly, Tyler Childers, Margo Price, Jason Isbell, Colter Wall, Ian Noe, Kathleen Edwards, Lydia Loveless, Lori McKenna, Amanda Shires, Ashley Monroe, Lucinda Williams, Over the Rhine, Samantha Crain, Shooter Jennings, Cam, John Moreland, Chris Stapleton, Lindi Ortega, Lavender Country, Cody Belew, Honey Harper, Lera Lynn, Nina Nastasia, Patty Griffin, Holly Williams.

The problem with the “9/11 killed country” attitude, to me, is that it’s a stance that requires limited knowledge of country that happened after 9/11 and a selective memory for the country that existed before 9/11. Jingoist country songs existed and found massive success before 9/11; more progressive country songs existed and found success after 9/11. Contrary to what people on tumblr seem to believe, the genre of country music was not just outlaw country, “Jolene” and Woodie Guthrie folk songs until Toby Keith came along; it was already highly Christian/gospel-influenced and highly patriarchal. And it was already full of goofy songs about getting drunk and partying and driving tractors, the predecessors to “bro country”.

I think, personally, we lose so much by centering “Courtesy of the Red White and Blue” and Florida Georgia Line as the first things we think of when we think about country music, because those songs and acts aren’t representative of the genre, or even of the pop country charts. We lose a lot because we lose sight of all the fantastic progressive or apolitical music in the genre, and we lose a lot because we ignore the sins of pre-9/11 country and the opportunity to critique its history of whitewashing, heteronormativity and cultural Christianity by likening it to some sort of good ol’ days.

Thank you for letting me ramble!

*I’m aware of Shania’s ignorant-ass Trump comments, but those reflect more recent political developments for her and came with a hasty retraction.

**Although lol the pop, rock and rap charts have all been brutal to women for the last several years.

[argylemnwrites]

It Couldn’t Wait Another Moment - Chapter 14

Pairing: Drake Walker x MC (Riley Liu)

Book: The Royal Romance (Canon Divergent from Book 2, Chapter 15)

Word Count: ~4700

Rating: PG-13 (adult language)

Summary: As Riley and Drake deal with the emotional fallout of recent decisions, Liam hears some important information from Olivia.

Author’s Note: I’m back! I may be GRRM’ing this thing, but we’re getting there. At this point, I think I will be able to keep up with weekly postings on Mondays, but I get that I have been super slow with the updates here, so I totally understand anyone who’s lost interest in this story. As a recap, Riley’s on her way back to NYC while Drake’s sticking around to support Liam, except he accidentally got in a painful fight with Liam after losing his temper with Leo. Basically, everyone is miserable at this point.

This series diverges from TRR canon, where instead of waiting to discuss his relationship with Riley until their last night in NYC, leaving her a note while Liam is proposing to her, Drake tackles this topic as soon as possible after Tariq makes his statement and Riley’s name is cleared. To catch up on this series, you can find the previous chapters in my masterlist (link is located in my bio).

In... two... three... four... Out... two... three... rest... In... two... three... four... Out... two... three... rest.

Liam focused on his breathing, trying to redirect his emotions. He should have never indulged in such an outburst. Expressing that anger had not been productive, and now he was frazzled and on edge. He needed to focus. Distractions were not acceptable, not at this moment. Olivia had come to see him, stating that her reasons were time sensitive. She required his undivided attention. She deserved it wholeheartedly, as did all the people she represented in Lythikos. 

Glancing over to the side, he took in Olivia, matching him stride for stride. She hadn’t spoken since they had left the lounge, which Liam supposed was a blessing. He didn’t really know how he would answer her questions when they inevitably came, because honestly, he had no idea how he had come to lose it that much, to that degree. He hadn’t gotten mad like that in years, not since the night that Leo told him that he was going to abdicate. He’d been in an emotional turmoil that night, trying to focus on supporting his brother through a difficult decision to walk away from a life that Liam knew was killing him slowly. But even though he knew that abdication was the only real option for Leo, even though he didn’t resent him for making that choice, he still had needed to mourn his relative loss of freedom. That night, Drake had taken him out in the woods, to the middle of a lake, letting him yell and curse and get drunk where no one would know his reaction. He’d been able to cleanse himself of his frustrations and returned, focused on the future and his people. Today, he had raised his voice and said horrible things about that same man in the middle of the palace. There would be no hiding his emotional response this time.

In... two... three... four... Out... two... three... rest.

He needed to stop dwelling on this right now. His attention was required elsewhere, and if he kept thinking about his fight with Drake, he would never be able to focus on more pressing issues. The fallout there would just have to wait. He opened the door to his office, holding it for Olivia to pass through first, watching as she chose not to sit on the more casual couches, but instead walked towards his desk. Clearly, whatever had brought her to the capital from Lythikos was official business.

Liam settled into his chair, taking one more calming, measured breath before looking Olivia in the eye, perched on the edge of the chair across from him. She appeared wound up and tense, not carrying herself with her usual comfortable intensity, a description that surely would have been an oxymoron for anyone else.

“I assume this is a rather serious manner that has come to your attention, seeing as you came to see me in person, but didn’t mention anything yesterday.”

Olivia frowned before replying, “Liam, do you need to take some time? You seem really... agitated.”

Liam shook his head, exhaling roughly in the process, hoping to release a little more of the tension. “Of course not; you told me this was a time-sensitive matter. I trust you enough as a duchess and a friend to understand that whatever you need to tell me is pressing and important.”

Olivia hesitated for a moment before she spoke, “If you’re sure, Liam…”

“Of course; now what was it you wished to discuss?”

She bit her lip and glanced upward, taking a deep breath before she continued, “I have information regarding the parties behind the attacks.”

Liam swallowed. He didn’t know what she’d come to discuss, but it hadn’t occurred to him that it could be this. The serious subject matter, though, did help refocus his thoughts. This truly was of the utmost importance. 

“Alright, what do you know?”

“It’s my aunt.”

“What?”

“My aunt, she’s involved with orchestrating the attacks.”

Millions of thoughts, questions, concerns, and possibilities swirled in a confusing eddy in Liam’s mind. There was so much to unpack here. He was trying to figure out how to best guide Olivia through the discussion, but before he could so much as open his mouth to ask his first of many questions, Olivia herself rattled off more information.

“I’m not sure if she’s the primary orchestrator of the attacks or if she’s part of a larger group. She just revealed her true intentions this morning over breakfast, so I haven’t had a chance to do any digging. She is a major player, though. She made that much explicitly clear.”

“Alright, and I take it you’re willing to testify against her should it come to that?”

Olivia nodded once, “Of course. But please tell me you aren’t thinking of moving on her right this instant.”

This gave Liam pause. His first thought had been to move a police force into Lythikos tonight and to take Lucretia into custody, but hearing her say it aloud made it clear how ill-advised that would be. It was highly possible that Lucretia had co-conspirators, and until they had a firmer understanding of the situation and a stronger case against her, they risked playing their hand too early. 

“No, you’re right. Let me bring in Bastien. He should hear this so we can begin to organize an intelligence unit to provide some surveillance on your aunt.”

Liam moved to collect Bastien from his office, but Olivia raised her hand. “No offense to Bastien or his staff, but I’m much better positioned to gain more information from her. She clearly believes that I’m working to better position House Nevrakis, regardless of the cost to Cordonia as a whole. She trusts me. I need to be the one to do this.”

Liam hadn’t been sure if Olivia had inadvertently overhead her aunt discussing certain sensitive topics, but this confirmed that Lucretia had willingly revealed her true schemes. There was a lot of wisdom to Olivia’s assessment of the situation. She hadn’t shared the details of why Lucretia had confided in her, but regardless, Liam trusted her completely, and if she thought she could parse out more details, he knew she would get it done. 

“Of course you will absolutely play a key role in this situation, Olivia. But we are going to need a targeted approach. Not just-”

“A one woman assassination squad?” she said, tilting her head to the side and giving him a little smirk.

Liam let out a little chuckle, “I’ll defer to your self-description. Let me go fetch Bastien and we’ll get started.”

Liam stood and was making his way to the side door to his office when Olivia called out to him.

“Liam?”

“Yes, Lady Olivia?” he asked as he spun to face her. She was twisted in her chair, head turned over her shoulder, vicious red nails drumming atop the seat back.

“I know now isn’t the time, but if you need someone to talk to about whatever the hell I interrupted there…” she trailed off with a shrug, almost as if she wasn’t sure how to offer personal support.

“I know, Liv,” replied Liam with a gentle nod, “later. That will all come later.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Riley checked the time on her phone as she waited to catch a train back into Manhattan. It was only 9 pm, a measly six and a half hours since she left Cordonia, flown for much longer than that, and left him behind. Time zone changes always messed with her brain, at least a little. It shouldn’t be possible for so much to happen in so little time.

She sent a text to Daniel, letting him know she was back and that she could come pick up Anderson just as the train pulled up in front of her. She knew who she should text next - Drake. She had promised him that she would let him know when she got back to New York. But she was dreading it. Truth be told, this was kind of uncharted territory for her. She couldn’t remember a single time where a relationship of hers had survived a shouting, screaming, crying brawl.

But she and Drake were still together after two massive fights. Well, kinda. After their first fight, Riley knew she shouldn’t have shoved Drake’s apologies to the side. But she hadn’t known how else to process that fight, and Constantine’s death had served as a convenient excuse to not deal with all the baggage they’d unpacked during their bitter screaming match in her apartment. But not dealing with it at all just meant that everything was even messier and more unresolved when they fought about Drake choosing to stay in Cordonia. They hadn’t broken up with that fight, but it didn’t exactly seem like they were standing on steady ground either. And Riley didn’t exactly know how to navigate that. 

So, as she rode the train from Queens back into Manhattan, she stared at her message thread with Drake, wondering what to say to him. She owed him at least telling him she was home and safe, even though some part of her feared that he wouldn’t even notice if she didn’t. He had chosen Liam over her, after all. She clearly wasn’t that important to him.

He had told her he loved her, though, when they were parting at the airport. She hadn’t been able to say the words back. Even now, she couldn’t bring herself to type them in a text. It wasn’t that she didn’t love him, or that their fights had changed how she felt about him. She just needed to start protecting her heart a little more than she had with him in months. She’d gotten sloppy, let her guard down. She’d been so careful, all the way through Liam’s coronation ball. But then, just a handful of weeks later, Drake had confessed that he’d chased after her when she was dragged out, told her he tried to make plans to follow her to New York, and all her life experiences that had taught her to keep her guard up and look out for herself had just crumbled. She fell hard. She should have known it would all come back and bite her in the ass. 

Because now she cared, and that meant it hurt. She’d spent so many years shielding herself from this sort of pain. And now, she was expected to face this heartache head on. It was too much. How could she send him a text, pretending like everything was fine? All her instincts were telling her to run, to move forward and not look back. It was the only way to keep her emotions safe, her heart safe. How was she supposed to move on if she stayed in touch with him?

She should have just ended things before she left Cordonia. That would have been easier than dragging out whatever the hell was going on between them at this point. But she hadn’t been able to, she straight up didn’t want to. She was mad in love with him, and how do you break up with someone you love?

God, when did her life get to be such a mess? Maybe she should have never agreed to go to Cordonia. Her life had been simple before she hopped on that plane with Maxwell. Of course, thinking of Maxwell reminded her that she should probably let him and Hana know that she was safely back in New York and that Drake was not. She didn’t want to deal with their questions either. If only there was a way to tell them without having to respond.

The answer hit her like a brick wall. How could she have been so stupid? She blamed the jet lag for not realizing earlier that the time difference would work to her advantage here. If she texted everyone now, they wouldn’t see her message for hours. It was perfect. She could let any responses sit unread until she was ready to deal with them, whenever that might be.

Maybe this was a cowardly way of dealing with things, but whatever. She was the one alone in New York. If Drake wanted to be in closer contact with her, well he knew how to make that happen. So she shot off texts to Drake, Maxwell, and Hana, then shoved her phone in her bag and ignored it for the rest of the ride. Then, after a short walk to Daniel’s, she and Anderson walked the 17 blocks home.

It was strange being back. Honestly, even when it was her and Drake a couple of weeks ago, it felt weird as fuck. Being back in this space after her life had changed so much, it just had felt a little off. But Riley was the master of adapting, so she’d ignored it, throwing herself wholeheartedly into rebuilding a life. But to be here alone, after traveling the world, finding closer friends than she’d ever had before, and falling in love-

No she needed to stop that line of thought. She was alone again. She’d been there before. She knew what she needed to do, and that was to keep moving forward. She couldn’t dwell on the past. It was time to purge her life of the reminders of things that could-have-been.

Normally, her first step would be to throw out everything that was his and anything of hers that reminded her too much of him. But, if Drake were to come back, like he promised her he would, having pitched all his stuff probably wouldn’t go over well. So, Riley decided to fill a box and shove it somewhere in her closet. No visible reminders of him that way, at least. Not knowing what size box she’d need to pilfer from the bodega recycling dumpster, she decided to pile all his shit on the desk. Anderson was her faithful companion, trotting along with her as she flung open all the cupboards, rifled through the drawers, and searched the apartment pretty thoroughly for items that were Drake’s. But after a good twenty minutes of scouring, she was shocked to see so few items on the table. Just bottle of generic shampoo with the scent “Mountain Fresh” and a bar of plain soap were truly Drake’s.

There were a few more items she’d weeded out because they would remind her of him too much. The bottle of whiskey. The bag of marshmallows, though those she should probably just dump in the trash because she was pretty sure she’d bought those before she left for Cordonia… the first time. A couple of her dresses she wore in Cordonia got tossed onto the table. The condoms ended up in the pile, too. Lord knows she wouldn’t be getting laid in the foreseeable future.

Was this really everything in the apartment that was not only Drake’s, but that even reminded her of him? That didn’t seem right. But another pass through the apartment didn’t find anything else that Riley wanted to hide away. The realization that Drake had basically left no physical presence in her apartment hit her with an unexpected wave of anger. Of course there was nothing left. He’d never bothered to unpack, never attempted to settle in and find his place, never took steps to make New York his home. He had been ready to leave at a moment’s notice the second anyone from Cordonia had needed him. Why would anything have been left behind when he’d been living out of a suitcase?

The frustration she felt caught her off guard. This wasn’t how she usually worked through rejection and abandonment. She’d been through it too many times in her life, not just from boyfriends, but from foster parents, her mother’s parents, and even her own father. Her mom too, in the more general sense of things, as she had always chosen her next high over being there. A guy choosing to be somewhere else rather than with her? Well that was par for the course, barely worth getting worked up over.

Except for she actually loved this guy. She’d worked so hard to not fall in love for years and years, because she’d known this would be the result. In the end, it was always just going to be her. Alone. And she could handle that. She’d dumped and been dumped. She’d been through breakups before. Unfortunately, this wasn’t actually a breakup, so her coping mechanisms were not gonna fly here. Because if this had been a true breakup, she would have been hitting up the bars and nightclubs. The best way to get over someone is to get under someone new, after all. But obviously, a handful of flings was not even close to an option at this point. Because this wasn’t a breakup, no matter how much it felt like things were heading that way. So Riley was left alone with her own negative emotions, something she’d actively tried to avoid for at least the past decade, probably longer.

She sank against the wall next to her fridge, trying to stop the wave of sadness and loneliness that was washing over her, but it was no use. It just hurt too damn much. This was why she had kept things casual and light with everyone she met. When she let people in, she always ended up alone.

Anderson trotted over as tears started to trickle down her cheeks, his eyes so wide, Riley had to wonder if he actually was processing how devastated she was. It certainly felt like it, and maybe that would be enough for tonight. She didn’t really have any other options, after all.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sunlight was already peaking through the gaps in the blinds when Drake awoke to a loud buzzing sound. His phone must be vibrating, but some quick fumbling around his nightstands didn’t produce it. He groaned, pulling a pillow over his head. Who the fuck was looking for him? No one had any reason to talk to him.

After his fight with Liam, he’d taken a bit to calm down. He’d stayed in the lounge, poured himself another whiskey, smoked a couple more cigarettes. When he finally felt like he had a better grip on his emotions, maybe an hour later, he’d wandered towards Liam’s office, thinking that whatever Olivia had just had to discuss with him was probably resolved. But as he turned the corner into the hallways leading to Liam’s office and the security offices, he’d been floored by the amount of activity. Agents were bustling from room to room, reviewing info on tablets, talking into their headsets, carrying stacks of paper. Clearly, something major had been going on.

So Drake had left, dragging himself back to his quarters, leaving Liam to focus on whatever was going on, something that was clearly more important than whatever had happened between the two of them. Certainly more important than Drake himself. And so he’d sat there, stewing in the aftermath of the past 24 hours, starting with deciding to stay in Cordonia and ending with him yelling at Liam. All bookending the extreme guilt he felt over how he handled things with Riley. He’d felt like a total piece of shit.

So, he’d drank. A lot. After all, any feeling out there had to be better. In his younger, stupider years, he’d done his drinking to numb and forget at a variety of dive bars. But that had always meant that Bastien had to come out and drag his sorry ass home. At least Drake had had the sense to not burden Bastien with that task last night, instead working his way through a sizeable amount of his whiskey collection. His memories of the night became fuzzier after a certain point, but he seemed to remember a text coming through in the middle of the night, waking him up on his couch and prompting him to stumble to his bed where he’d passed out, still fully dressed.

He hadn’t been hungover like this in a long time. His head was killing him, the sunlight and his vibrating phone only adding to his agony. Oh well. It was his own damn fault. All of it was, really.

Drake felt himself dozing off again, but before he could fall back asleep a wave of nausea bolted him out of bed and into his bathroom. After his stomach was done punishing him even more for his behavior and stupidity, he brushed his teeth and slowly walked back to bed. He collapsed onto his pillow and drifted off into an incredibly restless sleep, constantly interrupted by further episodes of nausea and his phone vibrating somewhere on a hard surface. He had no idea how long he dozed for, waking up at least a half dozen times before a loud banging on his door woke him fully.

“DRAKE WALKER, I’M SURE YOU’RE IN THERE! OPEN THIS DOOR RIGHT NOW OR I SWEAR I’LL-”

Drake flung the door open, “Hana, for the love of all that is holy, can you please drop the volume?”

But Hana was clearly on a mission, ducking around Drake and striding into his quarters with a purpose. “I’ve been trying to get in touch with you all morning. You need to explain yourself right this instant!”

“What the hell are you talking about?”

“This morning, I awoke to a text message from Riley. Why did you leave her, Drake?”

“I didn’t leave her-”

“She wrote me, and I quote, ‘Home safe in NYC. Drake’s still in Cordonia, btw.’ Since I am sure she would have told me if she broke up with you, the only other option is that you were the one to end things.”

Drake sighed. “We aren’t-” but Hana cut him off, continuing her tirade after taking a deep breath.

“I was well aware that something was happening between you two for months and I kept quiet, even though I wasn’t sure what your plan was when it came to letting down Liam, because I was sure you were in love with her, and I figured that meant that you were also looking out for her best interests. And then you two disclosed your relationship and I was happy for you, even if that meant an ocean between me and my best friend, because again, I was sure you were looking to do right by her.”

“Hana, look. There’s a lot going on here that you don’t know about and this really isn’t your business-”

“Don’t play that card, Drake Walker,” she interrupted, her voice inching louder and louder once again. “I certainly am invested in this relationship. I covered for you two when you two were openly ogling each other at the barn raising. I distracted the others when we were camping and Maxwell was this close to hearing the two of you together in one tent after everyone went to bed. I gave you a moment when I noticed her kissing you at the market in Shanghai. But most importantly I love her, and if you think that I’m going to stand here and not call you out for jerking my best friend around, well then, you have another thing coming.”

Drake sighed, his sluggish, hungover brain trying to process her rant. “Hana, can we do this another time? My head is killing me.”

“Serves you right for drinking enough whiskey to kill most humans. Your hangover is not my problem.”

Drake hadn’t told Hana he was hungover, but he supposed his general appearance and ignoring all sorts of calls kind of made that fact obvious. He sank onto the couch, running a hand over his face. “Did it ever occur to you that I got completely shitfaced because of how guilty I feel about her being back in New York without me?”

Hana stared at him for a brief moment before delicately sitting on the other end of his couch. “If you feel so guilty about it, why did you breakup with her?”

“We aren’t broken up, Hana.”

“Oh. But then why-”

“Liam needs me. Or at least he needed me. I fucked that up, too.” he groaned as he dropped his head.

Hana was silent for several moments, maybe waiting for Drake to keep talking, maybe just trying to formulate the best response in her mind. Drake wasn’t sure, but now that Hana wasn’t yelling at him, he actually did feel compelled to explain himself to her.

“Look, I’ve known Liam for almost my entire life, and I know when he’s not coping. The signs are pretty subtle, but they were all there. So while I want nothing more than to be there for Liu, I have to help Liam through everything that’s happened with the attacks first. He’s like family to me. He’s my best friend, and right now he needs me. At least I think he does. So yeah, this is just something I have to do. Because it’s what you do for your best friend.”

He chanced a glance up at Hana. She wasn’t looking at him at all, but was instead smoothing out imaginary wrinkles in the skirt of her dress. All the fire seemed to have been zapped out of her as she lightly bit her lower lip and futzed with her clothing. Three minutes ago she’d been a ball of fury, but now she just looked uncomfortable, and Drake had no idea if that was because of her outburst or just from being in his quarters in general. Given her upbringing, he wasn’t sure how often Hana had spent time alone with a man in his bedroom. Plus, of everyone in their little group that had formed during the social season and engagement tour, he and Hana were probably the least close. They certainly never hung out together one on one.

“I should go take care of some things,” said Hana, interrupting Drake’s thoughts. She stood up, smoothing out her dress one last time. 

“Oh, okay.”

“Sorry for intruding into your private quarters. I was just…”

“Pissed at me?”

“I was going to say ‘upset,’ but your description is fairly apt,” she said, blushing faintly.

“Don’t worry about it. I’ve been there.”

“You have?”

“Well, maybe not the barging in without regard for privacy thing, but the losing my cool part? Hell yeah. I get it.”

She gave him a small smile, “Are you okay? I suppose I could actually be a good friend and ask seeing as I’ve been questionably rude today.”

Drake shrugged, “Don’t worry about me. I’ll be fine in the end.”

“Riley seemed pretty closed off with that text.”

All Drake could do was sigh as he rubbed his neck, “Yeah, well…” He didn’t know what else to say. He knew he’d broken things there, and Hana had picked up on that with one text. But like he’d told her, like he’d told Riley, he felt he had to stay back for Liam.

The silence hung in the room for a few brief seconds before Hana stepped over to him and hunched over, wrapping her arms around him.

“Hana, I’m all sorts of gross right now. You don’t have to-” but she just hugged him tighter at that, so Drake just loosely wrapped his arms around her waist.

“You’re a good friend, Drake.”

“I used to be.”

She pulled back at that, lightly shaking her head. “No, you still are. Falling in love doesn’t make you a bad friend. I refuse to believe that.”

“Yelling at him yesterday might, though.”

Hana sat back down on the couch at that, much closer to him than she had been previously. “One mistake doesn’t make someone a bad friend. Not after years and years of support, at the very least.”

Drake didn’t feel worthy of this kindness, not after he’d fucked everything up with Riley and with Liam. But Hana placed a tiny, delicate hand on his shoulder, rubbing gently. “You two are stronger than you think,” she added before standing up and leaving his quarters, gently shutting the door behind her. A few moments after she left, Drake realized he had no idea who she meant  - him and Liam or him and Riley.

Tags: @dcbbw @mfackenthal @jovialyouthmusic @iplaydrake @gibbles82 @drakewalkerisreal @riley–walker @thequeenofcronuts @notoriouscs @butindeed @thesumofmychoices @texaskitten30 @yaushie @cosigottahavefaith @thequeenchoices @katedrakeohd @feartheendlesssummer @sirbeepsalot @ladyangel70 @ao719 @ooo-barff-ooo @octobereighth​ @sunnyxdazed

[lizabethstucker]

Hex Life edited by Christopher Golden & Rachel Autumn Deering

Eighteen tales of witches and magic all written by women.  A few are set in particular authors’ existing series.  The inclusiveness of black characters and authors elevates an already wonderful collection.  This is an ARC that was received late, contained in the box of books due to be published in January.  This actually was published in October and is available now.  I highly recommend this to pretty much anyone.  4.5 out of 5.

“An Invitation to a Burning” by Kat Howard

The town of Merrinvale refuses to admit that witches are needed to keep ordinary magics working.  Instead they burn them.  When villager Ronald angrily takes offense to a woman, she tends to disappear.  Now his sight is focused on Sage.  Very short, but chock full of emotion and sisterhood.  4.5 out of 5.

“Widows’ Walk” by Angela Slatter

The four widows living together on Carter Lane are suspected to be witches by many in the town of Mercy’s Brook, but are not harassed by locals.  When young Chelsea Margaret Bloom is caught stealing milk from their porch to dull her hunger, the women get involved.  Absolutely perfect from start to finish, with a neat twist at the end.  5 out of 5.

“Black Magic Momma: An Otherworld Story” by Kelley Armstrong

Eve Levine is a dark witch who is half-demon.  Her sole focus in life is keeping her daughter safe.  To do so, she works as a retrieval agent, obtaining items wanted by others.  Her latest job attracts dangerous attention.  I’ve not read any books in this series yet, although the first volume is in my ebook library.  I found this story moderately interesting, but not quite up to the previous two stories in this series.  Perhaps it in a matter of context.  3.5 out of 5.

“The Night Nurse” by Sarah Langan

Having a third child that she never wanted, Esme is approached by Wendy Broadchurch at the Brooklyn Children’s Museum.  Wendy is a night nurse, offering to help Esme once the new baby is born.  Already overwhelmed, Esme agrees.  At first she is happy, but soon doubts creep in.  Really creepy and, to be honest, a little more raw than I was comfortable with.  3 out of 5.

“The Memories of Trees” by Mary SanGiovanni

The Faithful plan to hang Martha Weede and her young ward, Ellena, threatened by their refusal to worship in the New Church and to accept the God of Technology.  Instead Martha and Ellena honor the Old Religion, the one older than the now fallen Christianity.  While graphic, it not only harks back to the witch hunts in New England, but warns how easy it is to fall back into that mindset of fear, prejudice, and craving for power.  Loved this story!  4.5 out of 5.

“Home:  A Morganville Vampire Story” by Rachel Caine

A witch has appeared in Morganville, one Oliver had killed centuries ago.  She’s a danger to both the vampire and human community.  She wants Oliver’s blood and will destroy everyone to get it.  Wow, how did I miss this series?  I’ve already got it downloaded from my library to read next.  A short story that makes you eager to know more about all the characters is a great story.  I almost got a Eureka vibe from this, only with vamps instead of mad scientists.  4.5 out of 5.

“The Deer Wife” by Jennifer McMahon

Julie has been meeting her lover in the woods for four years, a witch who comes to her in many forms.  She knows she shouldn’t, but is drawn back time after time.  Julie wants to join the witch forever, be able to transform as her lover does, but the witch resists.  Julie has a son, but Levi is now nineteen, with a girlfriend.  And filled with resentment for the death of his father.  McMahon doen’t give a lot of details, particularly in regards to the death of Julie’s husband and whether the witch was more directly responsible.  Or whether it is love or enchantment that keeps her returning.  An old myth tweaked into an interesting romantic tale.  3.5 out of 5.

“The Dancer” by Kristin Dearborn

Paul Baker is called to the Weavers’ farm to help with the reports by Ani, their daughter, of haunted activity.  They aren’t pleased with his solution.  He’s called back a second time to find the situation is more dire than he expected and takes action.  I don’t know about this one.  It almost reads like a rough outline or a missing scene from a longer story.  Disappointed as it had great potential as a novella or a book.  3 out of 5. 

“Bless Your Heart” by Hillary Monahan

It is never smart to go after a Southern mother’s baby boy, especially if she also has powers.  Pammy Washington and her bully of a son deserved everything they got for the years Colton had tormented Tucker.  Her late Mama warned Audrey to never cook when mad, but a woman can only stand so much.  I laughed at what happened to Pammy.  Not nice, I know, but I grew up in the South and I know women like her.  I’d bet good money that she was head cheerleader in high school, prom queen as well.  She really did get what she deserved, bless her heart.  For those who might not know, “bless your heart” is the genteel Southern way of saying “you’re a piece of shit”.  4 out of 5.

“The Debt” by Ania Ahlborn

After Karolin’s mother died, her father began to change, becoming less talkative, more distant.  He suddenly decides to take her to Poland, to visit his childhood home where his mother lives.  After arriving with no sign of his mother, Greg takes Karolin deep into the nearby woods to hunt for mushrooms.  When her back was turned, he disappears.  Shivers.  No happy or satisfying ending here.  Just the most horrific ending you could imagine.  3.5 out of 5.

“Toil & Trouble:  A Dark-Hunter Hellchaser Story” by Sherrilyn Kenyon & Madaug Kenyon

The witches of Carrion Hill are constantly visited by those seeking a glimpse of their future as well as a way to avoid the bad part.  As time goes on, there are less and less witches and more stupid humans who refuse to listen to the advice given.  Eeri, sold to the witches by her family, hates them, desires freedom and money.  A bit of Shakespeare is threaded throughout the story.  I love the Bard, but I don’t really think it adds to the story as much as the authors might believe it does.  Another series that I haven’t begun reading as yet.  3 out of the 5.

“Last Stop on Route Nine” by Tananarive Due

Charlotte and her 12-year-old cousin decide to drive together from their grandmother’s funeral in Tallahassee to a luncheon in Gracetown, a place both Charlotte’s mother and Kai’s father had fled as soon as they could and never returned to.  Somehow they are lost, caught in a smothering fog before coming through the other side to find a wicked old woman who curses them.  Here’s a sweet bit of horror with the mention of some real-life places peppered into the story.  4 out of 5.

“Where Relics Go to Dream and Die” by Rachel Autumn Deering

After years of conjuring the witch through the flame of an almost spent candle, the old man was dying.  One last conversation with the woman he loves leads to a dream or, rather, a memory that changes the past and the present.  A bit scrambled, but strangely compelling nonetheless.  So many questions.  3.5 out of 5.

“This Skin” by Amber Benson

Frances wanted to confess to homicide detective Harry Longfellow, waiting for just the right moment.  The reaction isn’t what she expected.  Frances comes across as a ten-year-old sociopath.  Unusual story.  I don’t know whether I like it or not.  It begs for more.  3 out of 5.

“Haint Me Too” by Chesya Burke

It’s been 40 years since slavery ended, but there are plenty who would like to just ignore the Emancipation Proclamation.  Shea and her family lived on the Myrtle House plantation, currently owned by the Petersons.  Myrtle House is haunted by the haint of a black woman who was murdered after poisoning her owners.  When local whites try to prevent black families and white sharecroppers from either leaving to go North or demanding better agreements, Shea can not only help her family, but the haint.  Enthralling tale of the South and how little it had changed after the War.  A little scary, but also empowering.  Could be considered a coming-of-age story for Shea.  4.5 out of 5.

“The Nekrolog” by Helen Marshall

I’m not sure how to describe this story.  It involves immigrants leaving Russia, death that isn’t, the State’s experiments in psychic abilities, and much more.  Enchanting and intriguing, a story I wish had been longer.  It really is almost as convoluted as an old Russian tale.  4.5 out of 5.

“Gold Among the Black” by Alma Katsu

Greta, an orphan, owns nothing.  Her only friend is Jesper, her dog.  She works hard at the castle in exchange for food during the day, refusing to sleep there at night because she can’t bring Jesper with her.  Instead they curl up together in the woods.  But Greta is getting old enough to have men watching.  Another worker at the castle has also told her that there are rumors that she is a witch and Jesper is her familiar.  What does she do now?  Nice, a bit of romance with the fantasy.  3.5 out of 5.

“How to Become a Witch-Queen” by Theodora Goss

The newly widowed queen is worried about her son, the soon-to-be king, marrying off his sister to some stranger.  She also needs to consider her own future now that she’s free.  A wild and interesting view of what life might’ve been like for Snow White after her Happily Ever After.  New choices, old friends, and a heroine who realizes it is time to take charge of her own life in order to ensure her daughter has choices.  Absolutely perfect!  5 out of 5.

[lovehaswonangelnumbers]

New Post has been published on https://lovehaswonangelnumbers.org/solar-eclipse-in-11th-degree-of-cancer-stronger-and-wiser/

Solar Eclipse in 11th degree of Cancer - Stronger and Wiser

Solar Eclipse in 11th degree of Cancer – Stronger and Wiser

By Sarah Varcas

The eclipse is in the 11th degree of Cancer and reaches totality at 19:24:08 UT

This solar eclipse in sensitive but nonetheless dynamic Cancer brings emotional healing in its wake. In response to a gnawing inner hunger it unleashes emotional and spiritual nourishment to those in need. Old ways of navigating this life may be falling short of late, with inspiration replaced by a jaded lack of motivation and faith. Growing intensity as Saturn and Pluto prepare to form their conjunction in January 2020) may feel heavy to many hoping for a lighter wave to ride right now. If that’s you, take heart. Nothing lasts forever, and this solar eclipse reminds us that even in the darkest hour nourishment is at hand.

This eclipse pokes at our emotional balance. If we struggle with feelings that routinely sabotage us, it offers insight about our internal dynamics and how to change them. For some, this eclipse may even bring the final healing needed to overcome a well-established pattern of emotional self-sabotage. But we must be prepared to do our part and acknowledge without candour, how we generate our own suffering. Self-awareness is key, and any feelings we choose to deny will continue to sabotage us as they, too, reach for the light.

With Venus the only planet in an air sign at the eclipse, objectivity may be hard to come by. And as Mercury prepares to turn retrograde in Leo on 7th/8th July, conjunct Mars, we must think twice about how we express ourselves. The force of our desires may cause our mouth to run away with us, speaking words in haste or anger that are best left unsaid right now. The consequences of unguarded expression at this solar eclipse will be significant. Mercury and Mars in Leo prioritise self-expression at the expense of listening to others. But balanced communication is vital at this time, together with a willingness to accept that what may seem undoubtedly obvious to us may be opaquely inaccessible to others. With feelings running high and our internal filter overridden by an over-confident appraisal of the ‘facts’, there’s an ever-present risk of words becoming the source of our undoing! If this happens, Venus’s passage across the eclipse degree on 12th July provides an opportunity for reconciliation if needed.

The Sabian Symbol for this eclipse degree references a clown impersonating others. Humour may well play its part in our journey into the Real Self, and objectivity that helps us chuckle at ourselves can be uniquely healing at this time. Life is intense, for sure. But we can lighten it up if we’re willing to shift our perspective and take ourselves less seriously. How much conflict could be avoided if more people were prepared to simply walk away rather than labour a point to win yet another meaningless argument? How much energy would we save if we let go of the routine slights and offensives that pepper our day? How much focused attention could we then invest in what truly matters? This solar eclipse poses such questions and suggests we take note of what sparks a reaction in us and why.

As Chiron begins five months retrograde in Aries on 9th July, the scales are shifting in favour of self-healing, self-acceptance and self-love. Whilst of course we need support from each other at times, those times may be fewer than we think. We are stronger and wiser than we’ve been led to believe by centuries of ‘experts’ telling us they know best in everything from religion and spirituality to science, politics, economics, health and even what we should wear and when! The time has come to own our sovereignty and claim our right to shape our own destiny. But of course, doing so comes with weighty responsibility. No longer can we lay our struggles at the feet of others and demand a solution. Chiron retrograding through Aries affirms we already have what we need and healing happens when we embrace this fact and lay claim to everything that we are.

Taking full responsibility for every moment of our lives is a radical and terrifying act. It’s also exciting, liberating and replete with potential. No more complaining. No one else to blame. No more self-pity. Just a state of pure intentionality in which we embody the power of fully being who we are. As the Moon eclipses the Sun, however, we discover just how elusive the Real Self can be! Amid conditioning and expectations, social mores, familial dictates and our own self-criticism how can we possibly spot the real me?! But like sunlight that returns once the eclipse is done, we find illumination in the shadows, weaving from their darkness the resplendent threads of a radically sovereign life.

Sarah Varcas

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[dfroza]

A story about the genesis of Christmas

read in an email sent Sunday morning:

Who Needs Christmas?: The Story Behind the Story

by Andy Stanley, from Session One

The story of Christmas doesn’t begin the way you probably think it does. It doesn’t begin with angels announcing the birth of a savior. It doesn’t begin with a young couple on an out-of-town trip trying to find a place to stay as the woman goes into labor. It begins all the way back in the beginning, in the book of Genesis.

OVERVIEW

Two thousand years before Jesus was born, God made a promise to a man named Abram, who we would eventually know as Abraham. It wasn’t just any promise. It was an unbelievable, incoherent, impossible promise. And yet it set up the events around Christmas.

The Lord had said to Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you. I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you. — Genesis 12:1-3

At this point, Abram was about 75 years old with no children. It’s an understatement to say that it looked impossible that his descendants would ever become a nation, let alone that they would bless all the people on earth. But the author of Genesis tells us that Abraham believed the unbelievable. He made a choice that, no matter how improbable God’s promises seemed given his current circumstances, he could trust them.

Then what happened? Abraham eventually had a son named Isaac. Isaac had a son named Jacob, and Jacob had twelve sons. One of them, Joseph, was sold into slavery in Egypt by 10 of his brothers. But he rose to a position of influence with the Pharaoh and saved his family and the Egyptians from famine. Within a few generations, Abraham’s offspring had grown into a nation — but they were a nation of slaves inside Egypt. They didn’t feel blessed. And they certainly didn’t seem to be in a position to bless all the people on earth.

Hundreds of years later, God sent Moses to deliver His people from slavery. By the time Moses was done, no one in Egypt was feeling blessed by Abraham’s descendants. God led His people into the Promised Land, but that created conflict with those already living there. Again, few people were feeling blessed by Abraham’s descendants.

It can be challenging for us to read about all of the violence and war in the Old Testament. That doesn’t seem like something a loving God would allow. But it was commonplace in the ancient world, and it has been commonplace throughout most of human history.

We only find it offensive because we live on the other side of Christmas. We see the world in a completely different way, but this was part of the journey. And that journey produced the kingdom of Israel, ruled most famously by David and his son Solomon. It was a kingdom that had the power and wealth to bless people across the earth… but it didn’t.

Instead, Israel was split in two. Eventually, the Assyrians overran the Southern Kingdom, and the Babylonians took the Northern Kingdom into exile. Hundreds of years went by and the fulfillment of God’s promises to Abraham seemed more impossible than ever.

There was no reason for the people of Israel to believe God’s promises. But here’s what God said to the nation during this difficult time through the prophet Malachi:

My Name will be great among the nations, from where the sun rises to where it sets. — Malachi 1:11

To the people of Israel, this must have seemed ridiculous. God’s Name was being mocked among the nations. His name was a joke. No one from the surrounding nations was looking at the fate of Israel and thinking, I want to worship their God. Israel couldn’t feed or protect itself. It looked like a nation on its last legs.

Then, in 63 BC, Rome sent Pompey the Great to the area of Judah in Galilee. He conquered town after town until he was outside the walls of Jerusalem, the capital of Israel. And so began the Roman occupation of what came to be called the Holy Land. For 400 years, God’s promises to Abraham seemed to be null and void.

But then an extraordinary thing happened. Looking back on it years later, trying to put the whole story together, the apostle Paul wrote:

But when the set time had fully come, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the law… — Galatians 4:4

When nobody was expecting it, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of King David.

The virgin’s name was Mary. The angel went to her and said,

Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.

Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. You will conceive and give birth to a Son, and you are to call Him Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David, and He will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; His kingdom will never end. — Luke 1:27–33

It turns out the Jewish people would be a blessing to the people of earth. And the thing that makes the Christmas story so believable is the fact that the story — the whole story — is so remarkable. No one would have made it up. No one could have made it up. It stretched over so many years that the thread wasn’t always evident. People lost track. People lost sight.

But God was working behind the scenes, setting the stage. The Christmas story began 2,000 years before the first Christmas. And it continues to unfold 2,000 years later.

So, who needs Christmas? God decided the world needed Christmas.

[gyrlversion]

Joe Biden Shows Support From Black Voters In South Carolina, Despite Gaffes

COLUMBIA — As nearly two dozen Democratic presidential candidates here for a ritual fish fry event that marks the symbolic kickoff of the South Carolina campaign, former Vice President Joe Biden appears to be enjoying considerable early support, especially from the capital’s tight-knit black community.

South Carolina Rep. Jim Clyburn’s “World Famous Fish Fry” gathers African-American party leaders, deep-pocketed Democratic donors, presidential candidates and reporters in a backyard-style cookout full of free food and hokey line dances during the state’s customary Democratic weekend.

While the state’s black Democrats are hardly monolithic, interviews with prominent Democratic operatives and Columbia locals reflect what the polls already appear to indicate: Biden, in spite of his recent gaffes, appears to have a clear leg up with black voters here.

And that support could prove crucial to clinching the eventual nomination.

“If you’re flirting with the idea or if you’re running for president, there’s two things you know: The road to heaven and the White House runs through South Carolina,” said South Carolina based Democratic strategist Antjuan Seawright. “As you look holistically at the Democratic Party, that is a mere reflection, I think, of the current mood and temperature of the Democratic Party as a whole.”

Rep. Marcia Fudge, former chair of the Congressional Black Caucus, agreed.

“South Carolina really can change an election, because it’s the first state of the first four or five states that has a large minority population. And everyone knows that black and brown people for the most part are the most loyal and consistent part of the Democratic base. So it’s a test: If you can’t win here, the odds are you can’t do well in other places that have large minority populations.”

Seawright touted the area’s African-American and women voters, who turn out, in his estimation, at rates of 60 and 55 percent. It’s a key demographic that threw overwhelming support behind then-candidate Hillary Clinton in 2016 and former President Barack Obama in 2012 and 2008. According to nonprofit Higher Heights, Clinton won more than 89 percent of the state’s black women; Obama pulled similarly high numbers in his respective races. Biden currently carries 76 percent of black Democratic support, leaving a 12-point gulf between him and Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders. Suffice it to say, there’s real power in black numbers.

Word of mouth and recommendations, coupled with party loyalty, goes a long way in South Carolina, said Charleston NAACP president Dot Scott. Biden is seeing an onslaught of preliminary energy and support, she added, due in no small part to his close association with Obama, which in turn vollies him high above the other candidates.

“It doesn’t hurt Biden that he served as the vice president under our first African-American president, so if we’re speaking just about Biden and black votes, he’s probably going to get the lion’s share,” said Scott.

In lieu of valuable face time with Obama, several candidates are vying for the affection and blessings of Representative Jim Clyburn, arguably one of the most powerful House Democrats, who aligned himself with both Clinton and Obama. A source who spoke to Clyburn in recent weeks said the influential congressman was shown data from Rep. Cedric Richmond indicating that Biden has the best chance to win a general election. Clyburn found the pitch pretty convincing, the source said.

Yet Clyburn is unlikely to make a public push behind a candidate at this unpredictable early stage, even though he recently came out in defense of controversial remarks made by Biden.

In a recent testy exchange, Booker criticized Biden’s remarks touting his relationships with segregationist leaders on Capitol Hill. While many in Washington expressed concern and speculated about how those remarks might threaten Biden’s chances, voters in Columbia seemed less pressed.

“Despite the hiccup we’re having,” said Scott, referring to the exchange, “I think we’re smart enough to realize that sometimes things that are said are just not delivered well.”

Even Rep. John Lewis, perhaps the most prominent civil rights activist on Capitol Hill, jumped to the defense of Biden Friday morning.

“I don’t think the remarks are offensive. During the height of the civil rights movement we worked with people and got to know people that were members of the Klan,” said Lewis. “We never gave up on our fellow human beings.”

Several Columbia residents said in interviews with Yahoo News they felt that Biden’s comments were misconstrued.

Albert Henry, a 39-year-old barber at a neighborhood mainstay (and Clyburn’s cuttery of choice), Toliver’s Mane Event. Henry, an undecided voter, feels like his peers — employed young black men — are hungry for a candidate who can guarantee job stability and easy access to health care. He says a candidate that looks like him — namely, someone black — would be a welcome step, he and his friends are far more concerned about who can work across the aisle to pass legislation. And Henry trusts Joe Biden at the gut level. Still, he’s willing to give Booker and Harris a chance.

“I feel as though regardless of who represents me, I want to be represented by someone who can guarantee that I’m able to go to work, make an honest living, provide for my family, and be a reliable citizen in the community,” said Henry. “Biden has a proven history there.”

Booker will have that opportunity Saturday morning, as he starts off his post-fish fry swing at the famous barber shop. He’ll face a sepia portrait of a young Clyburn that sits across the way from a framed photo of Obama and Clyburn chatting. Underneath the portrait, the caption reads: “JIM HAS THE PRESIDENT’S EAR AND WE MUST HAVE THEIR BACKS!!!” signaling an unflinching South Carolinian loyalty.

In the meantime, Booker’s prospects here are dimming. Sliding poll numbers have Booker holding onto Palmetto State support at 5 percent. And there’s doubts that he’ll be able to keep pace.

Herbert Toliver, a barbershop owner of 40 years who maintains a close personal friend ship with Clyburn, declined to speak to Yahoo News on the record. Another one of Toliver’s longtime regulars, 81-year-old Johnny Thomas, said he “simply wants to provide for their family,” a common refrain among working-class blacks here.

Thomas, a self-identified Democrat, feels like this week’s criticism of Biden was overblown. “It’s all anyone is talking about down here. Many other candidates want to knock one another around. But Biden shows that he can work with many others, even the ones who call him names or call us names. He can solve a problem,” added Thomas.

There’s one other candidate who got Thomas’s eye — Elizabeth Warren. “It’s past time to see a woman lead the country” said Thomas, who is open to throwing his weight behind either white candidates.

Yet Scott hears friends and colleagues speak highly of Sen. Kamala Harris in casual conversation, too, often in tandem with Biden. Harris has spoken publicly about her disdain for being assumed a de facto vice presidential candidate; though many in South Carolina support the idea.

“It’s almost like her name comes up with Biden’s name,” said Scott. “It might be the fact that she’s an African-American woman and we can’t help but be proud of where the African-American women is and for, I think, the first time sincerely being looked at as the deal breaker here, for the candidates that come here.”

One common thread among Democrats here is a basic question about the candidates: Who will outfight, outlast, and outperform Donald Trump?

For many Democrats in South Carolina, Joe Biden wins every time.

“One thing I can tell you with absolute resolute is that we just want someone to change who’s in the White House,” says Scott. “That’s how the conversation always ends.”

Read more from Yahoo News:

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NFL coaches, execs rank the best quarterbacks of the modern era

New Post has been published on https://othersportsnews.com/nfl-coaches-execs-rank-the-best-quarterbacks-of-the-modern-era/

NFL coaches, execs rank the best quarterbacks of the modern era

It takes an all-time-great voting panel to rank the greatest NFL quarterbacks of the modern era. We have assembled one of those, which might be the last time everyone reading this treatise nods in solidarity.

Pete Carroll, Tony Dungy, Mike Holmgren, Howard Mudd, Wade Phillips, Mike Reinfeldt, Ray Rhodes, Mike Shanahan, Al Saunders and Norv Turner possess a combined 330 seasons of NFL experience. All 10 are Super Bowl champions, having combined for 20 rings in 30 opportunities.

The 10 bejeweled members of this exalted NFL tribunal agreed to rank their top 10 quarterbacks since 1978 — more on the time frame in a moment — while discussing the various quarterbacks on the record.

Will Aaron Rodgers catch Tom Brady as the GOAT? Should Peyton Manning rank higher than Joe Montana? NFL Insiders tackle the biggest questions about the best modern-era QBs.

Tom Brady threw for 50 touchdowns for the 2007 Patriots, but does it add up to the best QB season of the past 30 years? Football Outsiders ranks the top 10 individual seasons.

1 Related

Panelists received an information packet with stats and career accolades for quarterbacks who were Hall of Famers, likely future Hall of Famers or highly ranked in major statistical categories since 1978, when the NFL ushered in a new era by changing blocking and coverage rules to open up the passing game. Panelists were instructed to use their own criteria.

This exercise was more like completing a deep out into the teeth of the blitz than checking it down to the halfback underneath a soft zone.

“I went ’round and ’round and ’round,” Turner said. “I probably had 20 lists, and then you feel like, when you’re done, you’re leaving someone out to get it to 10.”

Hall of Famers Terry Bradshaw and Ken Stabler were notable players excluded from the survey because some of their most significant seasons fell before the 1978 cutoff. Hall of Famer Dan Fouts also played extensively before 1978. He was included in the survey because his career took off beginning in 1978, when Don Coryell took over as the San Diego Chargers’ head coach.

Final rankings were determined by how frequently each quarterback outranked the others who received votes across all 10 ballots — call it the GOAT Index. For example, Tom Brady was ranked above the other QBs 87 percent of the time. Peyton Manning (80 percent) and Joe Montana (78) were next, followed by John Elway (67 percent), Aaron Rodgers (56) and so on. But enough on the math. Let’s get to the best QBs of the past four decades!

Note: Italics denote my commentary below. I didn’t vote in the survey. Read through the full file, or jump to your favorite QB using the quick links below.

1. Brady | 2. P. Manning | 3. Montana | 4. Elway | 5. Rodgers | T-6. Marino | T-6. Favre | 8. Young | 9. Brees | 10. Fouts

1. TOM BRADY

GOAT Index: 86.7 percent | Highest rank: 1 | Lowest rank: 6 Team: Patriots

Mike Shanahan on Tom Brady: “Five Super Bowl wins, especially the way he has won them. What more can you say about the guy?” Jim Rogash/Getty Images

Brady was first or second on nine ballots, making him a pretty overwhelming choice for the top spot. Dungy threw an interesting curveball. He approached the project as if he were a defensive coordinator drawing up a game plan. Dungy saw skilled passers across the board when looking at the best QBs. He reasoned that those who were also dangerous runners were the toughest quarterbacks to stop, which is why his top three comprised John Elway, Steve Young and Aaron Rodgers. Brady might own the best career credentials, but those other guys presented additional challenges. Not that anyone was going to argue against Brady.

Wade Phillips, three-time NFL head coach who entered the league in 1976 and coached both Elway and Jim Kelly: Tom Brady is easy for me. He is such a winner. They haven’t always had great defenses, and they have still won an unbelievable amount of games and the championships and so forth. I just think he’s the hardest to defend against. It doesn’t matter who their receivers are. Bradshaw was a little that way. Tom Brady is just the best our teams have ever played against.

Tony Dungy, Hall of Fame coach who debuted in the NFL as a player in 1977: It can be tough to separate the great quarterback from the great coach. We have seen this in every era: Otto Graham and Paul Brown, Bart Starr and Vince Lombardi, Johnny Unitas and Don Shula/Weeb Ewbank, Terry Bradshaw and Chuck Noll, Joe Montana/Steve Young and Bill Walsh. I don’t think Bill Belichick would be Bill Belichick without Tom Brady, and Brady would not have the same success without Belichick and the way they have put that team together. But the one common thread through 15 years was Brady. When they had him, they won big — won championships. The quarterback has so much to do with it.

Resume

Super Bowl titles: 5 MVPs: 2 First-team All-Pro: 2

NFL ranks from 2000 to 2016*

4th-quarter comebacks: 1st Game-winning drives: 1st Yards/attempt: 12th Adjusted net yards/attempt: 3rd *Minimum 50 starts

Advanced metrics

Expected team win pct: .581 Actual team win pct: .773 Wins above expectation: +19.2% Wins added per 16 games: +3.1

Al Saunders, NFL coach since 1983 and former Chargers head coach who worked with Fouts, Montana and Kurt Warner: There were some things I thought were important in comparing these guys. The first was the driven success they had with their teams. Some of that was skewed by the quality of talent that they were surrounded with. The second variable was their individual production. The third element was their individual efficiency. All of these things are tied in to the personnel they are with, the coaching that they had, the change in coaching that they had, the different systems they had to play in. And then the fourth thing was performance in the critical part of the game, which to me was fourth-quarter comebacks or game-winning drives. Regardless of how I did it, it always came up Tom Brady, Peyton Manning and Joe Montana at the top.

Mike Holmgren, Super Bowl-winning head coach who coached Montana, Young and Brett Favre: All these guys are very professional and work hard and are disciplined. Brady has taken those things to a new level.

Howard Mudd, NFL offensive line coach from 1974 to 2012 and all-decade offensive lineman from the 1960s: The reason why I have Tom Brady second [behind only John Elway] is because he has made his greatness with all kinds of combinations of players: two tight ends, three wide receivers, four wide receivers. Different receivers, different people — different, different, different. Defensively, New England might wind up with one Hall of Famer, or maybe not even any. I mean, they got rid of Richard Seymour and went to the Super Bowl.

Norv Turner, three-time NFL head coach and longtime coordinator who coached Troy Aikman: Brady’s record speaks for itself. He just finds a way to get it done over and over and over again. I don’t think there is any situation that he has not mastered. He is a great decision-maker. I mean, you don’t want to get into a two-minute drill against Brady. He is also remarkable because he has gotten hit a lot and lasted.

Ray Rhodes, five-time Super Bowl champ and NFL Coach of the Year who made his playing debut in 1974: Football has changed over the years, but Brady has been consistently able to get his team to the playoffs, Super Bowls and win. I have never heard him squabbling about his money. He is the consummate team player. He is going to buy into whatever it takes for them to win: throw it, run it, doesn’t matter. That is what I like about Tom Brady. It is all about the team.

Al Saunders: The thing that I asked myself is, ‘Who do I fear the most? Who did you not want to have the ball in their hands at the end of the game, regardless of the personnel that they played with?’ I think of Brady that way.

Mike Reinfeldt, 1979 AFC Defensive Player of the Year and longtime executive with four franchises: If some guys are game managers, Brady is a field marshal. He’s in control of all aspects of the game, able to change his game to meet a specific plan. He’s been blessed to play his whole career for one of the best all-around coaches ever. Brady and Belichick seem to be in total sync. Brady has taken the game to a new level with training, nutrition and overall fitness. That is partly why he has been able to play at his prime level for such a long period of time.

Mike Shanahan, two-time Super Bowl-winning head coach who coached Montana, Young and Elway: Five Super Bowl wins, especially the way he has won them. What more can you say about the guy? I don’t know him very well personally, but I love the way he handles himself. Just a true pro.

2. PEYTON MANNING

GOAT Index: 80.0 percent | Highest rank: 1 | Lowest rank: 5 Teams: Colts, Broncos

Howard Mudd on Peyton Manning: “If you are saying if you are going into the lab to create a quarterback, this is your guy. He is in complete control of what they did.” Nick Laham/Getty Images

Manning appeared among the top three on six of 10 ballots. Montana ranked that high eight times, but he was also lower than Manning on a couple of ballots amid some thought that he would not have translated as well to other offensive systems. Voters did not automatically rank the players they worked with at the top, which illustrated how seriously they took the project. The one No. 1 vote Manning received came from a panelist with no ties to him. Dungy and Mudd spent wildly successful years with Manning and sang his praises at length, but both had Elway ranked higher.

Tony Dungy: I never had to defend Peyton, and if I did, I might have a different opinion as it pertains to this ranking. Rodney Harrison told me defending Peyton was so different from everyone else he ever had to play against. That is a little bit of a disclaimer. I put Manning and Marino at the top of the nonscramblers because they didn’t have the benefit of dominant defenses.

Howard Mudd: The defenses are so much more complex in the current era. You have to be smarter now than you ever have been. I went through it with Peyton. No one did it better. He spent his rookie year, every two-hour meeting we had during the day if we had a night practice, we went in the gymnasium at Anderson College and we worked on blitzes until he understood who was not blocked.

Resume

Super Bowl titles: 2 MVPs: 5 First-team All-Pro: 7

NFL ranks from 1998 to 2015*

4th-quarter comebacks: 1st Game-winning drives: 1st Yards/attempt: 7th Adjusted net yards/attempt: 2nd *Minimum 50 starts

Advanced metrics

Expected team win pct: .506 Actual team win pct: .685 Wins above expectation: +17.9% Wins added per 16 games: +2.9

Norv Turner: If you’re going to create a quarterback in a lab, this is your guy. He was in complete control of what they did. The numbers are incredible. If Peyton Manning had New England’s defenses, he would be at the top of this list and he would be 5-2 or 6-1 in Super Bowls. People were critical of Peyton for the playoff losses — the interception against New Orleans or whatever — but his teams were not good enough on defense.

Mike Shanahan: Peyton started a new wave of football — coach on the field, being able to call plays at the line of scrimmage. And then you take a look at his stats throughout his career: very impressive, especially with teams that were usually pretty average on defense.

Mike Reinfeldt: Coming from a quarterback family, Peyton fully understands the position and all that goes into it. He was totally consumed with the game plans.

Tony Dungy: I don’t think Peyton gets enough credit for his physical toughness — play after play, year after year. People also would talk about Peyton having all these weapons, but he was responsible for a lot of that, especially when the team was so good and not picking high in the draft.

Wade Phillips: Peyton learned the right way. When he first came into the league, he threw a lot of interceptions, but he didn’t get sacked. He learned to get rid of the football. Then as he went along, he learned not to throw the interceptions. That is what made him great. And then through his preparation, he turned it into an audible game. You started saying, ‘OK, we have to wait ’til the last 10 seconds to show what we’re going to do.’ I think Brady is great at just reacting off it. Peyton was great at reading it and changing the play, that kind of thing.

Ray Rhodes: I am just telling you, he is a computer. I don’t care what you throw at him. You might get him the first time, but he is going to figure it out. He is going to get that computer brain working. He picks it up and is ready to go. He was one of the smartest quarterbacks I ever coached against.

Mike Holmgren: As dominant as they were in the regular season, I think the playoffs dropped him just a peg in relation to guys like Brady and Montana. That is all. He certainly deserves to be near the top. His career is remarkable.

3. JOE MONTANA

GOAT Index: 78.0 percent | Highest rank: 1 | Lowest rank: 9 Teams: 49ers, Chiefs

Norv Turner on Joe Montana: “He was one of the top two or three most accurate guys, a great decision-maker, and then obviously he played at his best in the most critical situations.” Focus on Sport/Getty Images

We considered two mathematical approaches to tabulating the results, and Montana would have edged out Manning narrowly had we used the other one, which gave added weight to the highest rankings. Manning had a slightly better average ranking. Their median rankings were the same. You pick one QB, and I’ll take the other.

Montana would have nailed down the second spot if a couple voters hadn’t questioned how well he would have projected into other systems. The other QBs clustered near the top were more imposing physically. Most panelists did not let that influence their thinking.

We start with Norv Turner, who was with the Los Angeles Rams in the 1980s and, therefore, faced Montana’s 49ers twice a year in the NFC West.

Norv Turner: Montana was No. 1 on my list. He was one of the top two or three most accurate guys, a great decision-maker and then obviously he played at his best in the most critical situations. Now, people didn’t know how to defend the system, and you see some of the tape, they are running completely free. Joe benefited from that, but I think there is something about being a forerunner, a leader. That wasn’t in vogue to lead with the pass and then become a running team when you got ahead. The Chargers also did it, and that is why I ranked Dan Fouts high.

Resume

Super Bowl titles: 4 MVPs: 2 First-team All-Pro: 3

NFL ranks from 1979 to 1994*

4th-quarter comebacks: 1st Game-winning drives: 2nd Yards/attempt: 6th Adjusted net yards/attempt: 3rd *Minimum 50 starts

Advanced metrics

Expected team win pct: .578 Actual team win pct: .711 Wins above expectation: +13.3% Wins added per 16 games: +2.1

Mike Holmgren was the 49ers’ quarterbacks coach and later their offensive coordinator during some of Montana’s finest seasons. Mike Shanahan was the 49ers’ offensive coordinator just as Montana was about to leave for Kansas City. Ray Rhodes was a defensive player and then a defensive coach with San Francisco for the majority of Montana’s career there. We’ll start with Holmgren, who said he was relieved upon taking the job to learn that Montana, though already a Super Bowl champion and league MVP, wanted to be coached hard.

Mike Holmgren: One, he was maybe the most accurate passer I have ever seen. Two, he played his absolute best on the biggest stages. That is why he was No. 1 for me.

Mike Shanahan: Having had a chance to be with him for a year, I saw just how perfect he was in everything he did. If he did not throw the ball on the correct jersey number, he was pissed. He would put all the blame on himself. That is one reason why he was so liked.

Ray Rhodes: I was there in San Francisco when Joe became the starter. The quarterback in front of him [Steve DeBerg] was doing all these hard counts, and Bill Walsh wanted it to stop because it was pulling our own guys offside. Bill gets frustrated and puts in Montana, and Joe executed it the way he wanted it executed. The next year, Montana took over the team, and he was like a surgeon. We would go on the practice field and in 7-on-7, the ball would never hit the ground. He could put the team on his back, and he was so clutch. He took us right down the field in the Super Bowl [against Cincinnati] with a minute or two left in the game. It was unbelievable.

Al Saunders: We were a real strong defensive team when Joe came to Kansas City. Joe infused an efficiency and a professionalism on offense that was just unmatched. The first year, he takes us to the AFC Championship Game playing against Jim Kelly in Buffalo, and Joe got knocked out of the game. When the 49ers came to Kansas City and Steve Young was the quarterback, Joe brought us back and we beat them. Then we played John Elway up in Denver on a Monday night in one of the greatest games ever played. Elway took Denver down the field and they scored with a minute and some seconds left to go. We had no timeouts. Joe took our team down 80 yards to win it in the last couple seconds, with a pass in the corner of the end zone to Willie Davis. His demeanor and his confidence and his personality and his command of the game was so endearing to the entire football team.

Mike Reinfeldt: Playing against Montana, you had the feeling he was almost like a Jedi master, like he had a sense about him that no one else ever had, allowing him to know where everything on the field was going to be and where the ball needed to go. Also, no game was too big for him. The more important the play, the better he was.

Pete Carroll, Super Bowl-winning head coach who entered the NFL in 1983: Joe would not necessarily play as well in other guys’ systems, like an Ernie Zampese system. I think it was Joe in that Bill Walsh system that made him, but Montana is still No. 1 for me because I think he was the best player. He won games in more ways than the other guys at the very top because he could move.

Wade Phillips: It was a little different era. Montana perfected the West Coast offense with the short passing game. Bill Walsh had run it when he was in Cincinnati with Ken Anderson and some other guys, but Montana took it to another level. His reads were so quick.

Norv Turner: There were more teams back then that could beat you up. Montana played the Giants in a playoff game, and he got knocked out of the game. The league wasn’t watered down when Montana was playing. There were better defenses, in my opinion. There were a lot more great pass-rushers than there are now. I don’t want to be the old-sounding guy because I coached through all of it. You played New Orleans twice [in the NFC West of that era] and it was Rickey Jackson and Pat Swilling. You played Chicago and it was Richard Dent and Dan Hampton. You played the Giants and it was Lawrence Taylor with Carl Banks, who was not a great pass-rusher but could do it, and they were a great defense. You played Buffalo and it was Bruce Smith. My point is, there were more teams like the Giants team that beat New England twice in the Super Bowl.

4. JOHN ELWAY

GOAT Index: 66.7 percent | Highest rank: 1 | Lowest rank: 8 Team: Broncos

Ray Rhodes on John Elway: “Elway has been the all-time most-respected quarterback as far as I’m concerned. He was a hard-nosed, tough guy that competed and was a winner.” US Presswire

Elway’s arm, scrambling ability, toughness and late-game-comeback ability made him the most feared/respected quarterback of the bunch to some panelists. Elway led comeback victories over Montana’s 49ers in the 1985 and 1988 regular seasons. Defensive coaches such as Ray Rhodes, who was with the 49ers at the time, know too well the dread that could set in when Elway got the ball in his hands late.

Ray Rhodes: Elway has been the all-time most-respected quarterback as far as I’m concerned. He was a hard-nosed, tough guy who competed and was a winner. He had one of the strongest arms that I had seen during that era. One of the plays they used to run, he would sprint to one side of the field with the ball and then come back and throw it all the way deep down the other side, and I had never seen a guy with that type of arm strength. He was amazing, man.

Mike Holmgren: He was probably as good as anybody I’ve ever seen out of the pocket. If you are defending him, you want him to stay in the pocket and throw. He could still do that very, very well, but he was remarkable at making things happen outside the pocket.

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Super Bowl titles: 2 MVPs: 1 First-team All-Pro: 0

NFL ranks from 1983 to 1998*

4th-quarter comebacks: 1st Game-winning drives: 2nd Yards/attempt: 21st Adjusted net yards/attempt: 15th *Minimum 50 starts

Advanced metrics

Expected team win pct: .533 Actual team win pct: .645 Wins above expectation: +11.2% Wins added per 16 games: +1.8

Tony Dungy: I coached against all of these players except Peyton Manning, so I based a lot of my ranking on who was the toughest to defend. For that reason, I put the three very mobile QBs at the top. Elway, Steve Young and Aaron Rodgers had that extra dimension of being able to create plays even when the defense covered the receivers. You were limited in what coverages you could play against them because of the threat of them running. I got asked a lot when they were both playing, Marino vs. Elway? It is hard to pick, but John just made plays when everything else was covered. He bought time and moved around, and you could do everything perfectly and you still didn’t succeed.

Howard Mudd: If I get a choice of all the quarterbacks since ’78, I would pick John Elway. He did a lot with less. I was coaching [for Cleveland] in the game, ‘The Drive.’ Did he have a great team around him? No. It was a good football team. They went to the Super Bowl. He went to five Super Bowls under different head coaches, different circumstances, different levels of defenses, all that.

Al Saunders: I was a young coach in San Diego, about 34 years old. Don Coryell calls Ernie Zampese and I into the office and says he wants to fly us up to San Jose to have dinner with Jack Elway, John’s dad. Jack was coaching at San Jose State at the time, and John was playing at Stanford. Don says, ‘We are going to make a trade, and we are going to select John as our quarterback.’ So, Ernie and I flew up there. We had dinner two nights before the draft with Jack Elway at Original Joe’s restaurant in San Jose. Boy, we’re drinking wine, we’re eating spaghetti, we’re just having a great time. Ernie and I are so excited. We get on the plane, and we see Don when we get back. “Coach, everything is great, Jack is real excited, this thing is going to work.” The next day, Baltimore works out that deal with Denver and we didn’t get him.

Norv Turner: Everything about him — the talent — was so impressive if you saw him play in person, if you coached against him. I coached against him in Stanford, while at USC. He threw a ball over 70 yards for a touchdown on a scramble. I mean, just unbelievable talent. Unbelievably hard to defend. When Elway was playing at his prime and his best, people didn’t give a darn about quarterback rating. They were trying to win. A lot of guys have started throwing a bunch of touchdown passes down inside the 3. The rating went up. You can’t begrudge it. But I think it helps explain the numbers a little.

It’s true that teams are passing more frequently overall, including from near the goal line. Research from Chase Stuart of Pro Football Perspective shows Elway threw 39 touchdown passes from the 3-yard line and closer, which was 13 percent of his total. Manning had 90 (17 percent), Brees has 84 (18 percent), Brady has 81 (18 percent) and Rodgers has 54 (18 percent). Montana had 37 (14 percent), Philip Rivers has 38 (12 percent) and Fouts had 21 since 1978 (8.3 percent). It’s also true that Elway’s stats improved significantly later in his career, probably because his supporting cast improved. The Big Lead’s Jason Lisk presented research to that effect in 2010, as well. But when NFL folks recall Elway, they focus on the talent and the comebacks.

Mike Shanahan: John was the most serious competitor I have ever been around. No matter what he is doing, he is going to find a way to win. That is in every phase, not just sports. There are very, very few people like him.

5. AARON RODGERS

GOAT Index: 56.0 percent | Highest rank: 3 | Lowest rank: NR Team: Packers

Mike Holmgren on Aaron Rodgers: “Some guys have better receivers or better whatever, but Rodgers gives you a chance to win and go to the Super Bowl every year.” AP Photo/Jim Prisching

Six of the 10 voters listed Rodgers over Favre on their ballots. Four had Favre higher, but Rodgers is still ascending as his career continues. Favre’s record iron-man streak and success with multiple teams/coaches helped his cause. Rodgers’ ability to match Favre in the playmaking department while limiting turnovers has him on the higher trajectory despite a shorter career run so far. Mike Holmgren, Ray Rhodes and Mike Reinfeldt were all with Favre in Green Bay at various points. That did not dim their appreciation for Rodgers, however.

Mike Holmgren: If you are a quarterback aficionado, you just look at him and say, ‘This guy can do anything he wants to.’ He passes the ball, he runs, he has the whole package. I will say this forever. The playoff game against Atlanta a few years ago, that was maybe the best quarterback performance I have seen by anybody ever. He dropped back, he ran, he threw on the run, he threw accurately, he got first downs. I also think he has shown tremendous toughness because he gets banged around a lot. Some guys have better receivers or better whatever, but Rodgers gives you a chance to win and go to the Super Bowl every year.

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Super Bowl titles: 1 MVPs: 2 First-team All-Pro: 2

NFL ranks from 2005 to 2016*

4th-quarter comebacks: 24th Game-winning drives: 17th Yards/attempt: 2nd Adjusted net yards/attempt: 1st *Minimum 50 starts

Advanced metrics

Expected team win pct: .536 Actual team win pct: .656 Wins above expectation: +11.9% Wins added per 16 games: +1.9

Ray Rhodes: Rodgers is very, very accurate. The guy has a good arm; he is a good athlete, can move around. The thing about Rodgers, he has had a lot of different weapons. Smaller receivers have played for him. No running backs. He has not had the defensive support that some of the others have had.

Mike Reinfeldt: Rodgers has everything you look for in a quarterback. Athletically, he is special. He’s done really well under the same coach for an extended period, although not to the same level as Brady and Belichick. Aaron still has a number of prime years remaining. His final spot on this list probably hinges on how he and the Packers perform in future postseasons.

Al Saunders: Aaron Rodgers is so efficient in his play, and I think Drew Brees is also that way. Both have been the beneficiary of being in a system for such a long period of time that their efficiency is just off the charts. His passer rating is the highest in league history.

Norv Turner: Rodgers is so talented physically, along the lines of why some people put Elway so high. Pretty amazing talent level in all areas. My nephew coached him in junior college, and he was still a developing guy. He was not what he was until probably his senior year in college. He really grew a lot late and has become a really impressive, explosive athlete.

Some compare Rodgers to Steve Young in that both are dual-threat quarterbacks who somewhat uncomfortably succeeded future Hall of Famers for iconic franchises before leading their teams to a Super Bowl victory. Mike Shanahan, who served as Young’s offensive coordinator 1992-94, drew comparisons between Rodgers and Marino in terms of throwing ability. Is there a higher compliment?

Mike Shanahan: When you take a look at Rodgers’ release and his quickness and his ability to throw off-balance and hit the open guy, bodies just don’t work that way. It’s fun to watch.

T-6. DAN MARINO

GOAT Index: 49.3 percent | Highest rank: 3 | Lowest rank: NR Team: Dolphins

Wade Phillips on Dan Marino: “He gave you nightmares. He was so gifted. He was really accurate. He could throw it long, he could throw it short, he could just throw it. Maybe the most gifted quarterback that we ever played against.” AP Photo/Hans Deryk

The first two panelists polled did not have Marino in their top 10s. One considered him to be a stat machine whose penchant for passing worked against the team concept. The other eight panelists had Marino between third and eighth, and they marveled at his ability to do the one thing every great quarterback must do: throw the ball exceptionally well when the defense knows a pass is coming. Has there ever been anyone better at that?

Mike Holmgren: His delivery and ability to pass the ball might be the best ever. Everyone knew he wasn’t going to run, so defenses could defend him a certain way. It didn’t matter. He was just a remarkable passer and fun for me to watch.

Ray Rhodes: Dan had a quick release, and he was accurate. He also had two 5-foot-9 receivers in [Mark] Duper and [Mark] Clayton. He moved that team up and down the field. I’ll never forget sitting in meetings with Bill Walsh and Bill saying, ‘Man, I wish I had a guy with an arm like that.’ And we had Montana! But Bill was always, ‘Man, he’s got the quickest release, he is accurate; look at the way he throws that ball! It’s unbelievable!

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Super Bowl titles: 0 MVPs: 3 First-team All-Pro: 3

NFL ranks from 1983 to 1999*

4th-quarter comebacks: 1st Game-winning drives: 1st Yards/attempt: 6th Adjusted net yards/attempt: 3rd *Minimum 50 starts

Advanced metrics

Expected team win pct: .497 Actual team win pct: .601 Wins above expectation: +10.4% Wins added per 16 games: +1.7

Norv Turner: We played him in 1986 in Anaheim and [Jim] Everett went crazy against them and it was 31-all as the game ended. They won the toss in overtime, and I think he completed seven straight and went right down the field and scored, and it was as good a drive as you could see. It’s the same thing I said about Joe [Montana] and Fouts. He is at the forefront of all this today. A lot of people were afraid to play that way, and they weren’t. They won a lot of games with him there. They just were never good enough on defense, and they had to beat Buffalo.

Wade Phillips: He gave you nightmares. I remember we were at Buffalo, and we played him in a [December 1995] playoff game and we got ahead of him [27-0 entering the fourth quarter], and that is what you really didn’t want to do. He threw it 64 times in the game! You talk about wringing your hands and so forth [Buffalo won 37-22]. He keeps throwing it and keeps throwing it. He was so gifted. He was really accurate. He could throw it long, he could throw it short, he could just throw it. Maybe the most gifted quarterback we ever played against.

Tony Dungy: Marino was exceptionally hard to defend because of his anticipation and quick release. That is why I had him right behind Peyton as the best of the guys who were not scramblers. When he was hot, he was almost unstoppable. He brought that swagger and could make every throw. You could blitz and, no matter how much pressure you got, he still got the balls off. He didn’t ever play with a dominant run game or great defense. If you had put him in some of those other systems — say, Dallas — would they have won as much as the Cowboys did? I think so.

Mike Shanahan: Marino is a lot like Rodgers when you take a look at the release and the stats throughout his career. You just love the guy. The only reason he is not in that very top group is because of the Super Bowl, but Super Bowls are a team thing, too — not just one guy.

Ray Rhodes: When he went to the Super Bowl as a young player, they kept saying he will get back and play in plenty more. Bottom line, you get your opportunity, you gotta win. You might never get a chance again. That is what happened to Marino.

Al Saunders: You give the ball to a Marino, an Elway, they are going to find a way to win it. It’s not the receiver, the running back or the tight end. It’s those guys. I mean, Dan Marino had 36 fourth-quarter comebacks. Only Manning [45] and Brady [39] have more. Peyton is the only quarterback in the history of the National Football League with more game-winning drives than Marino [Manning had 56, five more than Marino had]. Some people would say it is about Super Bowl wins. People also say, the quarterback is the guy who wins the game. In that case, Marino won 51 of them when they didn’t have a chance to win. That is pretty darn good. Who do you fear having the ball at the end of the game?

T-6. BRETT FAVRE

GOAT Index: 49.3 percent | Highest rank: 4 | Lowest rank: NR Teams: Falcons, Packers, Jets, Vikings

Mike Holmgren on Brett Favre: “All these guys are tough, but Brett’s record of playing in all those games cannot be overlooked.” James V. Biever/Getty Images

Favre’s flair for the improvisational made him especially compelling to watch and difficult to defend. He’d rank higher on this list if he had protected the football better, but as Rhodes noted, one of Holmgren’s greatest coaching legacies was getting Favre to stick to the script as often as he did. As for Favre? All he did was win three consecutive MVP awards from 1994 to ’96.

Ray Rhodes: There was not a guy tougher than Brett Favre. As far as making the right decisions and doing the things he was supposed to do all the time, Favre was as wild as they come — just a wild gunslinger. Really, you could have a six-inch window and he would think he could throw it between there. Molding Brett was one of Mike Holmgren’s best accomplishments.

Mike Holmgren: Brett is the contrast quarterback to Manning and Brady for how he played the game. You could make a case that, while he played within an offensive system, he ad-libbed a lot. It helped him a great majority of the time and hurt him some. Those other guys were more robotic. All these guys are tough, but Brett’s record of playing in all those games cannot be overlooked.

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Super Bowl titles: 1 MVPs: 3 First-team All-Pro: 3

NFL ranks from 1991 to 2010*

4th-quarter comebacks: 2nd Game-winning drives: 2nd Yards/attempt: 23rd Adjusted net yards/attempt: 17th *Minimum 50 starts

Advanced metrics

Expected team win pct: .530 Actual team win pct: .618 Wins above expectation: +8.8% Wins added per 16 games: +1.4

Mike Reinfeldt: Brett had a rocket for an arm. Many times, he would start off games with a few balls that sailed five feet over his receivers’ heads. He didn’t care much for game plans and all the meetings, but he loved to play the game. He was all-in on every play and was willing to take the risks — not just with his throws but with his body — to make the big plays.

Howard Mudd: Favre was a great leader. He willed his team to play well — not at the level with, in my opinion, Elway — but at a really high level nonetheless.

Norv Turner: The guy was incredible. He is a great talent and as exciting a player as there is to watch. Now, when you talk about these other guys with unbelievable skill at managing the game and being on top of all things, I do think Favre belongs about where he is, just because of that riverboat nature. He will do some things that will make you shake your head, and if you’re not on as good a team as he was on, that can be a tougher thing to get away with.

Tony Dungy: Brett Favre was always tough on us, but he was more of a risk taker than Montana or Brady, and that allowed you to make some plays against him.

Al Saunders: If Favre has the ball, as an opposing coach, I’m concerned. I’m not as worried about the people he has in supporting places. I’m worried about him.

Mike Shanahan: The first time we had him in the Pro Bowl, I saw him throw the ball over 80 yards, and that was his first pass when he was out on the field. I said, ‘Well, we don’t have to worry about arm strength.’ What a fun guy to be around, and what a career he had.

8. STEVE YOUNG

GOAT Index: 44.0 percent | Highest rank: 2 | Lowest rank: NR Teams: Buccaneers, 49ers

Tony Dungy on Steve Young: “If you covered everything, if you knocked the receivers off and did all those things that defenses tried to do, Steve could still create and make plays and beat you when you stopped everything else.” AP Photo/Lenny Ignelzi

Young’s ranks for fourth-quarter comebacks and game-winning drives lag compared with some of his peers. Of course, he and the 49ers played so efficiently — Young ranked first in yards per attempt, adjusted net yards per attempt and passer rating over the course of his career — that they coasted to the finish line a fair amount of the time. No one with the possible exception of Bill Walsh and Mike Holmgren could have seen it coming, either. The 49ers acquired him from Tampa Bay for second- and fourth-round picks after the Buccaneers drafted Vinny Testaverde first overall in 1987.

Ray Rhodes: When Steve first came to San Francisco, I honestly didn’t think he was going to be a player. Early on, as soon as he dropped back, he was ready to run. No throwing, no passing. We had a three- and five-step system, and it used to drive Bill [Walsh] up a wall. Finally, Bill and Mike Holmgren got him settled down and you saw improvement, improvement, improvement. Steve continued to improve, and then the next thing you know, he was running the offense the same way Joe Montana was running it. He showed so much consistency.

Mike Holmgren: Knowing Steve from college, I saw him grow and learn and get better and discipline himself. He is as bright a quarterback who has ever played the game. He played a long time. You talk about Russell Wilson and the guys who can run today. Well, Steve could run as good as anybody. He became great when he realized he did not need his legs to bail him out all the time.

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Super Bowl titles: 3 MVPs: 2 First-team All-Pro: 3

NFL ranks from 1985 to 1999*

4th-quarter comebacks: 16th Game-winning drives: 14th Yards/attempt: 1st Adjusted net yards/attempt: 1st *Minimum 50 starts

Advanced metrics

Expected team win pct: .547 Actual team win pct: .650 Wins above expectation: +10.3% Wins added per 16 games: +1.6

Mike Shanahan: You’d better remember what you told him two months ago because he is going to remember — he is going to have it written down. He was just extremely bright, and he could do it all on the field. Then you look at his stats and they are overwhelming. The three years I was with him, you could not ask for any more. Steve could do it all.

Tony Dungy: Montana at those pivotal times was sensational, but you look at Steve Young, he was accurate, he had touch, he put up the same kind of numbers with Jerry Rice that Montana did. Had Steve played during the time that Joe played, would he have won as many? I think probably so. The big difference for me is, if you covered everything, if you knocked the receivers off and did all those things that defenses tried to do, Steve could still create and make plays and beat you when you stopped everything else. I just know how tough it was defending him and the extra element that he brought. To me, as a defensive guy, those great passers who could also really run were always more trouble to defend.

Ray Rhodes: When I finally got back to San Francisco in ’94, Mike Shanahan and Steve had put together an offense that was a machine. I saw a mature, accurate quarterback. Steve guided a team that had come off a big-time embarrassment against the Dallas Cowboys, and that year, we beat the Cowboys twice — in the regular season and in the playoffs. Steve showed me a lot. The Cowboys had a team. You are talking about Michael Irvin, Troy Aikman, Emmitt Smith. I saw Steve Young keep his composure throughout those games when we played the Cowboys and do what he had to do.

Mike Reinfeldt: Steve Young is a tough one for me to evaluate because he didn’t become a full-time starter until well into his career. I remember seeing him play in the USFL and then for some bad Tampa teams, and initially there seemed to be few indications his career would take off. He was as athletically talented as any quarterback ever, which was good and bad for him. If he’d gotten with Bill Walsh and Mike Holmgren earlier in his career and then enjoyed a longer run as a starter, he’d be even higher on this list, for sure.

Norv Turner: That team [the 49ers] was a well-oiled machine, and he went in there and he had to keep it going. It is different than what Brady did in New England. [The Patriots] were a bad team. Brady went in there and changed them. Peyton changed that Colts team. Joe Montana, same story. Troy Aikman, same story. I put some weight on that.

9. DREW BREES

GOAT Index: 40.0 percent | Highest rank: 4 | Lowest rank: NR Teams: Chargers, Saints

Mike Shanahan on Drew Brees: “You take a look at everything he does — his mechanics, his ability to read defenses, how he is always in position to throw — and it really elevates him.” Derick Hingle/Icon SMI

The Brees-era Saints are 58-22 with a Super Bowl title during the five seasons in which they allowed fewer than 22 points per game. They have allowed between 24 and 29 points per game in the six other seasons Brees has been on the roster, and it’s a testament to their quarterback that they have finished no worse than 7-9 in any of those seasons. Brees’ New Orleans teams have allowed 23.6 points per game, worst among all the QBs receiving votes (Fouts’ Chargers were next at 23.3 PPG allowed from 1978 to ’87, when teams averaged about 1.5 fewer points per game than they have averaged during Brees’ New Orleans tenure).

Brees is so closely associated with Sean Payton and New Orleans that it’s easy to forget he was a dominant player under head coach Marty Schottenheimer and offensive coordinator Cam Cameron in San Diego. Brees went 20-11 as a starter for the Chargers over the 2004-05 seasons, ranking among the NFL’s top five in touchdown passes and passer rating over that span.

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Super Bowl titles: 1 MVPs: 0 First-team All-Pro: 1

NFL ranks from 2001 to 2016*

4th-quarter comebacks: 5th Game-winning drives: 3rd Yards/attempt: 10th Adjusted net yards/attempt: 4th *Minimum 50 starts

Advanced metrics

Expected team win pct: .506 Actual team win pct: .685 Wins above expectation: +17.9% Wins added per 16 games: +2.9

Tony Dungy: When the whole Eli Manning/Philip Rivers thing was going down, I know Marty Schottenheimer felt like, ‘Gosh, I’ve got a guy in Drew Brees who I can win with right now. Why do I want to go down that road of starting over?’ He had a lot of confidence in Drew.

Mike Shanahan: You take a look at everything he does — his mechanics, his ability to read defenses, how he is always in position to throw — and it really elevates him. For him to be able to throw the ball the way he does, at his height, is just so impressive. He has the perfect mechanics. He is never off-balance regardless of the rush around him. When you look at tapes and want to show guys a football position for throwing the ball, he is a guy you go through the cut-ups on.

Mike Holmgren: People might not appreciate it as much as they should because of the success Russell Wilson has had, but shorter quarterbacks like Brees are at a disadvantage. Drew has been able to do something at his size that, if you look back historically, quarterbacks can’t do. Look at the numbers. He has learned to move, he has learned sight lines and how to play the position at his height. That in itself is pretty good. It’s remarkable, actually.

Tony Dungy: If Drew goes a couple more years, his numbers are going to be astronomical. He has kind of gotten overshadowed playing at the same time as Brady and Manning. It is a different era now, but I think you look at the numbers and the fact that he has done it with a lot of different receivers and two different systems, I had to include him in my top 10.

Howard Mudd: You can play defense with offense if you go out and stay on the field. We did it with Peyton in Indianapolis. Up near the top of that is Drew Brees. He has done a lot with less. He might be the only Hall of Famer that they have through all of his career with New Orleans. I just think it is awfully hard to keep him out of the top five.

10. DAN FOUTS

GOAT Index: 22.0 percent | Highest rank: 4 | Lowest rank: NR Team: Chargers

Mike Reinfeldt on Dan Fouts: “Fouts was so fearless. He stayed in the pocket and competed like few others have competed.” Malcolm Emmons/US Presswire

Fouts trailed only Brady and Manning in a metric measuring wins above expectation, making a strong case that he could be undervalued in the survey.

To calculate the metric, ESPN senior analytics specialist Brian Burke ran a statistical regression on all games since 1978 to create a season-specific expectation for winning each game based on how many points the opponent scored. For example, the model gave the Patriots a 35 percent expectation of winning the Super Bowl given that they allowed 28 points to Atlanta. Winning the game created a 65 percentage edge attributed to Brady for the purposes of this exercise.

Fouts’ San Diego teams won 57 percent of his starts, well above the 41.7 percent expectation based on the Chargers’ points allowed in each game. The QB shouldn’t get all the credit for the difference, of course, but it could be telling that Brady, Manning, Fouts, Montana, Rodgers, Warner, Elway, Brees, Marino and Young constituted the top 10 since 1978.

We start with Al Saunders, who coached the Chargers in various capacities from 1983 to 1988.

Al Saunders: Dan redefined the passing game in conjunction with Don Coryell, Ernie Zampese and the Sid Gillman concept. When you talk about a timing, rhythm passer with tremendous accuracy, Dan was the model of that. His combination of toughness, accuracy, timing and rhythm was far beyond those who were playing the position at that time. I don’t know that I have been around a more courageous, tougher football player than Dan Fouts.

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Super Bowl titles: 0 MVPs: 0 First-team All-Pro: 2

NFL ranks from 1979 to 1987*

4th-quarter comebacks: 2nd Game-winning drives: 3rd Yards/attempt: 2nd Adjusted net yards/attempt: 3rd

*Minimum 50 starts

Advanced metrics

Expected team win pct: .417 Actual team win pct: .570 Wins above expectation: +15.4% Wins added per 16 games: +2.5

Pete Carroll: Fouts was phenomenally accurate and played the game like a championship guy plays games. He had great awareness and understanding of the game. He threw a lot of difficult stuff and was able to do it in that Ernie Zampese offense. It was the same style of offense that Troy Aikman had in Dallas, but Fouts never had the running game, the defense, the other stuff. And he was so tough. The game ain’t at all like it used to be in that regard. Everybody got hit harder, everybody got hit more — at all the positions, and the quarterback, for sure. They had to be fricking studs then. I’m not saying they are soft now. They just don’t get hit as much.

Howard Mudd: I have tremendous regard for Dan Fouts and a long history with him going back to when he was a 49ers ball boy and I played for the team. As far as doing this ranking, I see him a little bit like Kurt Warner. Look at the offensive weapons they had. It was a very specific offense with Don Coryell in San Diego, and that is why maybe he isn’t as high as some of the others.

Norv Turner: You are talking about a guy who played with one of the worst defenses in history and just had to carry it always.

Ray Rhodes: He could score 50, but his defense would give up 50, too. We shouldn’t hold that against him. I felt bad for that cannon operator because whoever was shooting that cannon off, their arm was tired. If they had a defense back then, it’s no telling how many Super Bowls Fouts would have won. Fouts did have a very strong supporting cast. Coryell’s system was really good. He really gave Fouts new life.

Mike Reinfeldt: I have a special spot for Fouts. He was so fearless. He stayed in the pocket and competed like few others. He was also a true spinner of the football. Fouts and Marino made throwing the football look like the easiest thing in the world. The lack of postseason success hurts his standing, but I don’t think Fouts was the issue.

Mike Holmgren: Athletically, Rodgers and Young are very special. Fouts? Look, you have to be an athlete to play quarterback, but he wasn’t like that. He was in the pocket the whole time and was just a remarkable passer with great, great toughness. Now, he had great receivers, and like all of these quarterbacks, it helps to get in the right system. But I had to put him in my top 10 for the way he threw the ball in that offense.

THE BEST OF THE REST

T-11. BEN ROETHLISBERGER

GOAT Index: 20.7 percent Team: Steelers

Howard Mudd on Ben Roethlisberger: “When you put him in the game, don’t bet against him. So many times he has brought the team back.” Dilip Vishwanat/Getty Images

Tied for 11th seems like a good spot for Roethlisberger. Another couple of strong seasons from him could vault him into the top 10, while an underwhelming finish to his career could keep him on the outside looking in.

Mike Shanahan: I have always admired his ability to stand in the pocket and make big-time throws with guys hanging on his body. He’s just one of the few guys I have seen with the leg strength and arm strength to do it. Then you take a look at a couple of Super Bowl wins. Granted, the first one wasn’t great statistically, but the two-minute drive to beat Arizona was about as good as it gets.

Howard Mudd: Some of the guys on this list are there because they have worked so tirelessly to overcome things. That is one of the reasons Peyton was so great. I’m not sure Ben Roethlisberger does that in the same way, but I’ll tell you, when you put him in the game, don’t bet against him. So many times he has brought the team back. Like in that Super Bowl against Arizona, are you kidding me?

T-11. KURT WARNER

GOAT Index: 20.7 percent Teams: Rams, Giants, Cardinals

Al Saunders on Kurt Warner: “His anticipation and timing and rhythm was just so remarkably good.” Nick Laham/Getty Images

Warner’s career is unique in NFL history. Five of the 10 voters ranked him between seventh and 10th on their ballots. The others did not find room for him among the top 10.

Mike Shanahan: It’s the strangest career you have ever seen. You just go, ‘Wow, how did that guy not get picked up earlier? Why couldn’t people see that ability to anticipate a throw before a guy was open? And the ability to play under pressure, making some of the big-time plays that most quarterbacks have no chance of making, and do it consistently?’ The way he came up and the way he threw the ball with anticipation was impressive in a new era for the passing game.

Al Saunders: I think of Kurt Warner playing in St. Louis when we had the Greatest Show on Turf. Certainly, he was surrounded by a great cast, but he was the one that really made that thing go. His anticipation and timing and rhythm was just so remarkably good. He got traded to New York and that system of offense — play-action and run the football — that is not Kurt Warner. And then he went to Arizona and got involved in an offense that revolved around him and his passing efficiency and getting the ball out of his hands quickly and being able to throw sights and shots and doing those kinds of things, and he, again, set the league on fire and took them to the Super Bowl.

Tony Dungy: My biggest challenge was at the bottom [of the ballot] trying to decide between Warner, Fouts, Aikman and Roethlisberger. I went with Warner [at No. 10]. He had some great receivers and talent around him, but doing it in two different systems swung it for me. Fouts had a system that was ahead of its time and had world-class receivers. Aikman had a tremendous run game and defense, so he didn’t have to do as much. Same with Ben. All three were great talents and would have been dominant in any system, but to me they didn’t have to do quite as much as Warner.

13. TROY AIKMAN

GOAT Index: 8.0 percent Team: Cowboys

Al Saunders on Troy Aikman: “When you win three Super Bowls, how can you not be in the top 10?” George Rose/Getty Images

The consensus on Aikman was that he was an exceptionally gifted quarterback on a team that didn’t need him to do as much as the higher-ranked quarterbacks had to do. His exceptional postseason production played a leading role in the Cowboys’ three consecutive Super Bowl victories, suggesting he could have done more if needed. Norv Turner was Aikman’s offensive coordinator and is best-positioned to explain why the Hall of Famer could be underappreciated.

Norv Turner: Put all these guys in a draft and Aikman is a top-five pick. Because of his numbers and the style of offense he played, people don’t give Troy’s talent enough credit. I remember when we were playing well, [John] Madden and [Pat] Summerall talking about Troy being the most accurate passer they had ever seen. We were throwing those deep comebacks and deep dig routes to Michael Irvin and skinny posts, and people would be in awe of how he threw the ball. People have forgotten that because of the numbers with Jimmy [Johnson] and the way I coached and what we did. We were not a team that was going to give him 10 completions within 5 yards of the line of scrimmage. Michael Irvin was averaging over 16 and 17 yards a catch. To me, that is where you see the talent.

Al Saunders: When you win three Super Bowls, how can you not be in the top 10? But then, with all of the other things that the other guys did and have done, it just ended up being that way.

14. WARREN MOON

GOAT Index: 6.7 percent Teams: Oilers, Vikings, Seahawks, Chiefs

Ray Rhodes on Warren Moon: “Warren was an outstanding quarterback. He played in every system you can name and he still excelled. Everyone he played with, he made them better.” Peter Brouillet/Getty Images

The deck was stacked against Moon when he was forced to spend the first six years of his pro quarterback career in the CFL. The run-and-shoot offense he ran in Houston provided chances for production in the passing game, but it wasn’t the way teams were winning championships at that time. Moon still earned a spot in the Hall of Fame and respect from voters, whether or not they found a spot for him among the top 10.

Norv Turner: I always said that Oilers team could have won multiple Super Bowls if they had a move conventional offense. You can’t win a Super Bowl running what they were running. It is going to catch up to you. They were a very good defensive team, and Warren was awfully, awfully good. I just think the offense they ran made it real hard to play quarterback.

Ray Rhodes: I just look at the wasted years they took away from Moon, and then when he finally got to the NFL and got a chance to show what he was about, Warren was an outstanding quarterback. It was different times, and I felt so bad for the time he spent in Canada. He played in every system you can name and still excelled. Everyone he played with, he made them better. Great leader. I would stack him up with any of the quarterbacks on this list. He got hit so much, maybe more than anyone on this list. But he was put together — he was built like a running back, similar to Dak Prescott — and had a great arm.

15. JIM KELLY

GOAT Index: 4.7 percent Team: Bills

Howard Mudd on Jim Kelly: “When [Kelly] walks in a room or some setting with all those great players that they had there in Buffalo, there is no doubt about who the leader was. I don’t know about his stats. Don’t give a s— about his stats …” Bernstein Associates/Getty Images

Kelly played fewer seasons (11) than every other quarterback receiving votes for the top 10. What if his Bills had won one of the four consecutive Super Bowls they reached?

Howard Mudd: I don’t know if he willed himself to beat cancer, but they just know that when he walks in a room or some setting with all those great players that they had there in Buffalo, there is no doubt about who the leader was. I don’t know about his stats. Don’t give a s— about his stats because they played in that crappy weather up there. They still won after the general manager [Bill Polian] left — they went to the Super Bowl four years in a row. I mean, yes, the head coach [Marv Levy] became a Hall of Famer, and, yeah, he kept it together, but Jim Kelly was the lead dog.

Norv Turner: Kelly could be as high as fourth or fifth. They played in a tough division at the time. They were head-to-head with Miami and Marino all the time. They found a way to get to the Super Bowl four straight times. They just never won one. They were a little bit along the lines of Houston. It is hard to win with that offense. They had exceptional talent on defense in Buffalo, but some of the better teams had success against them.

Al Saunders: How hard is it to take a team to four Super Bowls? That is unbelievable.

16. ELI MANNING

GOAT Index: 4.0 percent Team: Giants

Ray Rhodes on Eli Manning: “[Manning] did not really have a top-flight receiver until recently … with the addition of Brandon Marshall to that group, this is going to make them a team to reckon with.” James Lang/US Presswire

Manning leads the NFL in fourth-quarter comebacks and game-winning drives since entering the league. He has also played his best during runs to a pair of Super Bowl titles. That wasn’t enough to overcome some highly inconsistent regular-season play for a spot in the top 10, but Giants fans might take heart in what one of the survey participants had to say.

Ray Rhodes: Eli has won two Super Bowls, and he had a different cast of players around him. You look at Eli’s numbers the last 2-3 seasons, he has been over 4,000 yards passing. He did not really have a top-flight receiver until recently [with Odell Beckham Jr.]. I liked the salsa dancer [Victor Cruz], but I didn’t see the receiver everybody feared. Now, with the addition of Brandon Marshall to that group, this is going to make them a team to reckon with. I’m talking about the Super Bowl. There is no excuse for Eli this year. I think they are going to give the Cowboys all they want.

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In that meet, McIntire captured her first-ever event title with a 9.850 on floor. She also tied for second on vault (9.800), placed fourth on bars (9.675), tied for sixth on beam (9.450) and took second in the all-around (38.750). That was just a sign of things to come for McIntire and the Aggies. Bailey has been so fun to coach and its been awesome having her come in as a freshman and just rock out, and then hold that standard throughout her whole career, Walsh said. She has a very unassuming attitude and mentality, where shes not prideful or arrogant, but shes confident, and I love that about her. I love that her confidence doesnt override her ability to stay humble, true to herself and a really good teammate. McIntire and the Aggies capped the 2014 campaign with a trip to the NCAA Regional Championships, where they placed sixth in the Fayetteville Regional. Since then, they have competed in the Berkeley Regional, Salt Lake City Regional and are headed to the Seattle Regional this weekend. That is so exciting and I know the majority of the reason why we have made it the last four years is because we had a coaching change, McIntire said. I couldnt have asked for a better coaching change. Also, all of the seniors me, Katie Brown, Hayley Sanzotti and Keri Peel have really grown together and weve worked to help the program grow. In the summer, we worked out and did everything we needed to in order to show the other girls what we wanted the program to be like. Its been super awesome to see it grow and to hear the stories from previous years, then come in and help turn everything around. Its only going to go up from here. McIntire won seven floor titles as a freshman and has captured 11 in her career. Heading into this Saturdays NCAA Regional Championships at Alaska Airlines Arena in Seattle, Washington, she has 25 career titles under her belt. The native of Kearney, Missouri, began competing in gymnastics when she was 3 years old. Now, she finds her name scattered all throughout the Utah State record books as she has recorded two of the top all-around scores in school history with a 39.425 to rank tied for sixth and a 39.400 to rank tied for ninth.

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"I thought it was a pretty good visit. It was nice. I got to know the coaches more," Simpson told Scout. "Coach Grimes is a great coach and coach Orgeron is straight up. It's just nice talking to them." www.scout.com/player/200652-darrell-simpson The massive 6-7, 336-pound offensive tackle said what stood out the most to him was the current Tigers being so friendly. "The players coming up to you and greeting you," said Scout's No. 43 overall player. "They weren't just being players and shying away from athletes." Offensive line coach Jeff Grimes has been making a big impression and remains in constant contact with the No. 4 offensive tackle in the country. "Every time I turned around, they were talking. Coach Grimes always texts me and sends me a message in the morning telling me how badly he wants me at LSU and how he can develop my skills." http://www.scout.com/college/lsu/story/1760443-no-1-texas-ot-breaks-down... Oklahoma is another school that is hot on the trail for Simpson and he says that he's built a strong bond with the staff up there, but he's watching the new facilities going up at Oklahoma. Its really special what theyre doing in terms of building new things, Simpson said.

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