#[ asgore did start the war against humans because his son was killed ]

[agentravensong]

The Underground is a Haunted House and Chara's the One Haunting It

propaganda for @hauntthenarrative's poll tournament

Hello! I'm writing this in advance of Chara's next match-up in the tournament against Rose Quartz because, as an Undertale and SU fan, I know it's gonna be a tough one. The ways in which Rose Quartz haunts Steven Universe (the character and the show) are all fairly obvious for people familiar even with just the show's premise.

But Chara haunts UnderTale's narrative just as strongly, if not as obviously. If you already know that and want to vote for them, here's the link to the poll. If you need to be convinced to do so and don't mind UnderTale spoilers (because this will spoil basically the whole game), click the read more, and I'll take you on a journey :)

EDIT: Chara has made it to the finals!!! Here's the link to vote for them!!!

The Basics

If you don't even know who Chara is, here's the primer: they were a human child, the first human to fall into the Underground after the war between humans and monsters that led to monsterkind being trapped down there. Chara was taken in by the king and queen of the monsters, Asgore and Toriel, and became best friends with their son Asriel. Chara's bond with the monsters gave monsterkind hope that they could coexist with humanity once they achieved their freedom.

The underground was full of hope.

But then, Chara gets an idea for how to break the Barrier that's trapping the monsters. A plan that requires their death (though to the rest of the Underground it appears to be the fault of a random tragic illness). A plan that they commit to, but that, unfortunately, fails past that point, because Asriel refuses to follow through on the harvesting of other human souls it requires. As a result, he dies as well, at the hands of humans.

The loss of Chara and Asriel prompts the king to declare that all humans who fell into the Underground from now on must be killed, so their souls can be used to break the Barrier. Because, without Chara, the monsters need a new source of hope. Over the next... 100 or so years, give or take, six more humans fall into the Underground. Their souls are taken by Asgore. Then a seventh falls. And that's where UnderTale the game begins.

Chara as Catalyst

The player doesn't find out about Chara until they reach the final area of the game, when basically everything I just said gets exposition dumped on you while the song that shares the game's name plays (and even then, you don't learn the human's name - remember that for later). However, once you know that backstory, you realize that it is the catalyst for literally everything.

Toriel leaves Asgore because of his declaration of war on humanity, going to live in the Ruins to look after any humans who might fall like Chara did. Therefore, Chara is the reason that Toriel was there to save the playable human, Frisk, at the start of the game and teach them how to survive in this world.

Asgore's declaration (the catalyst for which was, again, him losing Chara and Asriel) also leads to the development or repurposing of the Royal Guard as a group to hunt humans. Papyrus wants to join that organization, and so tries various schemes to capture Frisk, occupying their journey through Snowdin. Then in the next area of the game, Waterfall, you're hunted by the captain of the Royal Guard, Undyne.

Chara's brief time Underground, becoming an honorary member of monsterkind, is part of the reason why Asgore hires Alphys as Royal Scientist to try and find a way to break the Barrier without killing any more humans. It's a large part of the reason why Asgore has such complex feelings about the deeds he's done.

And then there's Flowey. Flowey, the first character Frisk meets, who tries to kill you while convincing you that that's just how the world is ("it's kill or be killed"). Flowey, who tracks your journey through the Underground and becomes the final boss of all but one of the game's routes. Flowey, who is, to vastly oversimplify, Asriel's soulless reincarnation. Flowey, who learned to see the world as kill or be killed because of what happened to him and Chara. Flowey, who, after what for him has been a literal eternity, sees Frisk as his replacement for Chara: the one person who understands him. By the end of the True Pacifist route, in fact, he sees Frisk as literally being Chara. He says they're the only person who's still fun for him to play with, because they can still surprise him -- because they're the one person he hasn't gotten to see every angle, every detail, every version, of, with his newfound power over time. Because they've been gone.

Chara is the one person Flowey still cares about while being literally unable to feel love. And his enduring connection to them is what allows you to get through to him at the end of the True Pacifist route (arguably the canon ending) and SAVE the world.

But he'll never be Asriel again. And Chara will never come back. Not as they were.

Haunting Everyone (including you!)

That's the argument on a pure "sparks the plot" level. But there's way more to Chara than that, if you know where to look.

For one, there's the way they haunt Frisk and the player specifically. It's their name on your save file, on Frisk's stat menu. They're haunting you before you even know they existed.

And Flowey isn't the only person who projects Chara onto Frisk; Toriel and Asgore do too. Every time a human has fallen into the Underground, Toriel has tried to protect them, because she sees Chara in them. And Asgore, if you spare him after fighting him, sees in Frisk the opportunity to get back the family he lost, to do things right this time (he even forgets that he's divorced).

But even that's not all. Because of course Chara haunts Flowey/Asriel and their parents. But their loss, and the things they stood for, have also been absorbed into the fabric of the monster's civilization.

You see it in the complex feelings the monsters have about potentially finally getting their freedom. Before they fell, all the monsters had was rage toward humanity. But then this kid fell, and the monsters gave them a chance. And, in turn, that child gave them hope.

Young one, when I look at you... I'm reminded of the human that fell here long ago. You have the same feeling of hope in your eyes.

That hope for a reconciliation and peaceful future with humanity remains even after humans killed Asriel, though for many of the monsters it's turned bittersweet. It's what even allows for the possibility for Frisk to befriend every monster, which ends up indirectly being the key to their freedom. And you can also see how that hope has been twisted in Chara's absence, most significantly in Undyne's blind devotion to the cause of freeing her people at any cost, and Alphys’s terrible mistakes made in pursuit of the same goal (which also led directly to Flowey's existence!).

Haunting the Narrative — Literally.

And that leads me to my final major point, the most subjective but perhaps most persuasive of all: the grief the Underground felt from Chara's passing was so strong that Chara's short story has been baked into the present-day narrative of UnderTale itself. Without even realizing it, the main characters are all acting out the beats of that story - their story - again.

I've detailed my reasoning for this reading of the game in this post, so I won't go fully into it here (especially considering how many words I've already made you read), but the basic gist is:

Frisk falling into the Ruins and being taken in by Toriel parallels Chara falling into the Underground and being taken in by the Dreemurr family

Snowdin is cozy and homely to represent how Chara came to feel at home in the Underground, and the sibling dynamic between Sans and Papyrus parallels the budding sibling relationship between Chara and Asriel

Waterfall is where the player learns about the history between humans and monsters and what it would take to set monsters free, meaning that you begin to feel the weight that Chara felt as "the future of humans and monsters", the weight that led them to formulate The Plan. As previously mentioned, Undyne parallels Chara in her determination to free monsterkind, whereas the Monster Kid who befriends Frisk and eventually stands up to Undyne for their sake parallels Asriel, who refused to let Chara kill any humans for their souls as part of their Plan.

Hotland... goes kind of beyond the scope of this post, because the Chara parallel requires that you buy into the theory that Chara is the literal narrator of the game. A theory that I honestly believe based on all the evidence (see this video), but I think people's opinion on whether that adds to or goes against the idea that they're Haunting the Narrative in their absence will differ, so. Up to you whether or not you want to look into that.

And then the end of the game is where the past fully catches up to the present, and you decide the world's future.

The monsters will remain trapped by the past Chara represents until you get the True Pacifist ending and let them (and Frisk) start a new phase of their lives (or until you turn their willingness to trust a human against them and bring Chara back Wrong as the agent of monsterkind's ultimate destruction). Until you do that, as long as you keep playing, forcing the monsters to relive their grief (and adding to it), Chara remains. Their story isn't finished. They - what's left of them - can only move on once you do.

It's their name on the save file, after all.

You see? Even if a player doesn't know about Chara until near the end of their first playthrough, and even if they won't really know their full story without going back for the best ending, they're there, haunting the narrative, the whole time. The game, in every sense, would not be the same without them.

Chara was a human child. If you push them far enough, they'll call themself a demon. They loved chocolate and their village's golden flowers. They had a fascination with knives. They drew and gardened. They hated humanity for reasons they never told anyone, but which were strong enough to drive them to climb a mountain beneath which monsters dwelled. They gave those monsters hope. They wanted to give them more than that, and were willing to give their life to those ends. They were the king and queen's child. They introduce themself by saying "Greetings", just as their mother does. They accidentally poisoned their father, and whatever they felt about that came out as a laugh. They made him a sweater. They were Asriel's best friend. They played tricks on him and called him a crybaby. They trusted him with their soul.

They hid their face in the family photo.

They still smiled.

... If you'll let me get a little soap-boxy here at the end:

A large portion of the UnderTale fandom, for a long time, refused to acknowledge all the layers the game gives Chara. Too much of the fandom refused to give them their due analysis as a character in their own right, in a story that is in every way about them and their brother (remember when the song called "Undertale" plays?).

A win for them in this tourney would be validation of the complex and vitally important character they always were.

So. Vote Chara. For me :)

[amethystoceandespiser]

*When Papyrus brings Frisk to his house and begins cooking pasta for Frisk (his skills have improved, thanks to Toriel)...

(Sans sits next to Frisk.)

Sans: Pal, you're lucky that Papyrus found you first, because if I found you first... You'd be dead where you stand.

(Frisk instantly runs to Papyrus.)

Papyrus: SANS!

Sans: I was joking!

Papyrus: I don't care! You shouldn't say such a cruel thing to an innocent child… even if it was a ‘joke’.

(Papyrus then brings Frisk to the kitchen, to comfort them and so they could help him make the dessert.)

(Papyrus lets Frisk sleep in his race-car bed (he’d sleep in a sleeping bag, next to Frisk), then Papyrus asks Sans to meet him in the shed, for a serious grown-up talk.)

Papyrus: Sans, I KNOW that your cruel joke wasn’t actually a joke. I might be childish sometimes, but I'm not stupid. I'm disappointed in you, brother.

Sans: ...The Kingdom needs one final soul and I would’ve made the human's death as quick as possible.

(This angers and horrifies Papyrus.)

Papyrus: Even if it would give everyone freedom, it isn’t fair that the Kingdom wants to kill and harvest the soul of an innocent child, simply because Frisk is a different species!... You know, the barrier needs human souls in order to break, but it doesn't say that the human souls have to be dead! We can easily make Frisk's soul appear, without hurting him!

Sans: Bro... Remember that humanity is the reason that we're sealed our Kingdom inside this mountain... and the reason why King Asgore's son is dead.

Papyrus: Yes, but my friend Tori told me that the first war started because a monster absorbed a human’s soul and humanity was afraid… If humanity was truly evil, the human kingdom would’ve destroyed us all, instead letting us all live down here... Sure, we're trapped, but we're still alive!

Papyrus: And that human village only destroyed Asriel, because they believed that Asriel had killed Chara… all of humanity’s actions against monsters were self-defensive… it doesn’t make their extreme actions right or okay, but I get why they did what they did!

(Papyrus got louder!)

Papyrus: EVEN IF THE HUMANS THAT SEALED US AWAY AND THE HUMANS THAT KILLED ASRIEL WERE EVIL, THAT DOESN��T MEAN ALL HUMANS ARE EVIL! WHY SHOULD HUMANITY GO EXTINCT OVER WHAT A FEW GROUPS OF THEM HAVE DONE? DOESN’T THAT MAKE US JUST AS TERRIBLE AS THE ONES THAT HURT US?… Our species is supposed to be made of love, compassion and hope… And creating another war doesn’t sound very loving and compassionate, brother…”

Sans: ... I honestly don’t want another war with humanity either bro, but the war is King Asgore’s decision… And sometimes in war, you have to pick sides… And I choose the side of my own species.

Papyrus: Wait a minute, the new war technically won't happen until the barrier is broken... And the barrier needs seven human souls, but it doesn’t need them to be dead souls... If I can convince Asgore to stop the war and to stop killing humans... Then I can use Frisk’s still living soul to break the barrier and free everyone!

Sans: Papyrus, that plan won't work... call Undyne to ‘take care’ of Frisk instead... Because I’m gonna be completely honest with you… If you try to do this plan and keep protecting Frisk, the Kingdom will see you as a traitor and a criminal… Everyone will become your enemy and I won’t be able to help you.”

Papyrus: IT’S NOT LIKE YOU EVER HELPED ME BEFORE, SANS!… Brother, please understand… I promised Tori, my best friend from the Ruins Door, that I will watch over and protect Frisk no matter what… She really cares about Frisk, and I don’t want to let her or Frisk down… BESIDES, FRISK AND HUMANITY DESERVES TO BE HAPPY, ALIVE AND FREE JUST AS MUCH AS WE DO!

(Papyrus is about to leave the shed.)

Papyrus: OH, AND SANS? ONE LAST THING… If you tell Undyne and the Royal Guard about Frisk, or become the reason that Frisk dies… I will never forgive you.

(Papyrus slams the shed’s door on a shocked Sans, and Papyrus proceeds to silently watch Frisk sleep in his race-car bed, before entering his sleeping bag.)

(Sans honestly doesn’t know what to do…)

Sans: ... Who is Tori?🚪

Holy... shit... this is some really good drama

[blurzzbad1]

My opinion on Asgoriel.

As cute as it is I don't think that Asgore and Toriel will get back together. Don't get me wrong I don't think that Asgore is the problem. No i think that Toriel is the problem that makes this relationship toxic. The way she treats Asgore as if he was in the wrong sucks so much when in reality she was the one in the wrong all along. What I'm saying is that no matter how much you look at Toriels plan to get out of The Underground it always fails unlike Asgore's plan which actually had a chance of working.

Let's just go over both of they're plans real quick.

Toriels plan was to get 1 human soul and cross the barrier but since monster and human soul literally fuse together when absorbed by a monster meaning that both of them have control over the monster vessel(this information is given to us by Asriel after true pacifist route), this is evident by the fact that Asriel and Chara shared Asriels body and Chara was the one who took they're body and wanted to get the other 6 souls but it was Asriel holding back which caused his death and he then tells us that he doesn't regret holding back as he would just start another war. So not only the human would most likely rebel against Asgore resulting in his death but even if he did manage to take the other 6 human souls that would just start another war and it's the same if anyone else is king or queen. Whether it's Asgore, Toriel, Undyne, Alphys, Papyrus, or Mettaton, Toriels plan will always fail. Also I know she didn't know that this was Asriels and Chara's plan but choosing a plan that has failed in the past is a huge no no. And if she was so confident that her plan was going to work, why didn't she do ot herself. Now you could argue that she is just making a point but if the point means the possibility of saving your entire race maybe you should act on that point yourself. So its easy to say that Toriels plan was definitely the most efficient but not the safest.

Now let's talk about Asgore's plan. His plan was to wasit in The Underground for 7 human souls and unlike Toriels this one actually had a chance of working. So in the Photoshop Flowey fight, Flowey explains that he needs one more soul before he can become a god. What this tells us is that Photoshop Flowey is not a god and the souls can rebel against him. But Asriel despite having the power of 7 human souls, the souls don't rebel againts Asriel despite him threatening to erase the timeline. What this means is that when you have the power of 7 human souls(aka the poers of a god), you now have power over those souls, which means that Asgore's plan would actually work. Now then there is the thing about whether or not Asgore killed the humans or not. I'm on the side that says he didn't as there is a lot more evidence to say that he didn't but whether he killed or not those humans deserved it. Not only did they lock monsters underground and kill his biological son, causing him to not grown up, it's implied that the 6 humans before Frisk were not as merciful as them. This information is given to us by one of the froggits from the Ruins. They say to Frisk "You are quite merciful FOR A HUMAN.'' So yeah, that says that.

Now again don't get me wrong but I love Toriel as a character, but the way she treats Asgore as if was a coward is stupid because in reality she was the coward. Thats why the only way I ship this is in pre-game standards(but I do still think the ship of them getting back together is adorable). Now I bet to all who are going to read this are going to say "but shes just bottling up her feelings for him because you can find flower seeds, a golden flower in her room and as well as a cactus and encyclopedia on plants." And thats true you can find those and that fact that they're interests and attempted interests would make them complete each other, but for the sake of fairness I'm gonna skip that.

I love both of these characters but in order for me to love this half of the ship, Toriel needs to apologize to Asgore.

[springbons]

ASGORE ISN’T A BAD GUY AND I’M TIRED OF PRETENDING HE IS! (Note: I am wrong. I change my view.)

(Everything below this is Conjecture and my failed opinion, but I refuse to delete it for archival reasons. Consider it a tagline of my failure. Do not take me seriously, cause after review of what others have told me, the whole POINT of the storyline is both of them were being stupid. But then again, this post is mostly “She’s not perfect either, and people need to not hate asgore and give him the love he deserves, and to be able to look past what he did because what she did was just as bad.” That’s the TL;DR.)

That’s it. I’ve had it. I’ve had it for too long. I’m not even mad at the people, I’m more mad at Toriel. Toriel is a selfish woman who caused a million problems, blamed her husband for it, pushed it all onto him to solve, and he’s just trying to do what he can to SLEEP AT NIGHT. Let’s get into it!

WHAT ELSE WAS THERE TO DO?

Let’s start with a line that Toriel says at the end of the run, because this is the hardest to account for IMO, and has pissed me off the most; "If you really wanted to free our kind, you could have gone through the barrier after you got ONE SOUL, taken six SOULs from the humans, then come back and freed everyone peacefully."

Now put yourself in Asgores shoes. You’re a big, fluffy, push-over who has barely enough strength to fight a single human without feeling like scum of the earth. Do you think he would be able to go out and just slaughter 6 innocent lives and live with himself? Do you think he could sleep when every time he closes his eyes he sees one of their faces? No. He made a choice, a difficult one: He found a solace in compromise, the people of the Underground would go free eventually, but he would not hunt those merely living their lives. Let them fall into the mountain, be their own foolishness that lets them get killed.

IT’S HER FAULT TOO!

But Toriel here thinks that’s not good enough. Like his choices were all wrong, as if he had a right one. Well, Ms. Know-It-All, let’s count every single choice you’ve made and see how many fuck-ups we can rack up, hm?

She let a human (Considered Enemies of War at the time) into their home, child or not.

She was so bad at supervising them at she didn’t catch on when they started stuffing Buttercups in their mouth

Ontop of that, had their plan succeeded, ALL humans could’ve ended up dead in some ungodly reign of terror, who knows what would’ve happened then.

Then when his husband declares War on humans for killing their Children despite the fact they were completely peaceful while on the surface, instead of being his only voice of reason and beacon of light remaining, she runs off and secludes herself in the ruins to make him feel bad.

She then spent years manipulating every human child that ever fell into the underground into staying with her, forcing them to stay in her home against their wishes until they finally had to fight her just to leave

And then she doesn’t help them when they DO leave, instead deciding to let them go into this “Harsh and Cruel” world completely unprepared and alone, not even answering their calls.

And she never leaves because why? Because she just couldn’t abandon the grave of her first child. This child, that she brought in, which caused so many problems. Her son is dead, Frisk is haunted by Chara, and all the blame was put onto her Husband, who’s just doing his best.

I even got some extras!

CAUSE WHY NOT?

You could technically say she causes the Genocide Route. Her negligence to watch over The Player, (or Frisk,) as they slaughter countless monsters is humiliating to say the least. She lets a child run rampant, completely on their own, in a dangerous place, and not only do they get hurt in Pacifist, they could level an entire town in Genocide before they get to her home. And then? She reads them a story, and bakes them some pie. How. Lovely. You blind-ass goat.

Another thing that pisses me off is did she ever stop to think how her husband felt after all of that? His children, dead. His wife, gone. A man with no strength and will, left with the toughest possible decision in the worst situation. Do you think that if Asgore didn’t have hundreds-of-thousands counting on him to run the Underground, (Oh yeah, she left him with that responsibility alone too btw,) that he may not have been able to take it? He had to stay strong for so many, he had no other option, but if it was just him? If all that happened while they were above-ground, while he wasn’t king? ...Do you think he would’ve killed himself from the stress alone? Cause I certainly do. Asgore is a very, very hurt soul who didn’t deserve any of what he had to face or do, and Toriel is a fool. I rest my case.

[luanrabelo123]

Undertale/Deltarune, the Dreemurr family? (Sorry, I'm terrible at naming titles or anything...)

1. The way the monsters lived because of the humans:

I don't understand your point with this about Toriel's actions being fair, being that it wasn't, this considering the circumstances they were underground, it wasn't like their lives were happy or anything from the beginning, they were just trying to forget about that thing about the war and trying to survive (since they need hope to survive) and get on with life with the best of the circumstances they were in, even with the possibility of them being free again at some point in their lives.

And then finally Asriel was born, after his birth and a few years later, he ended up finding Chara who had fallen from underground, and then he was adopted by the Dreemurr family.

He was adopted son of Toriel and Asgore, and adopted brother of Asriel. After so many years... they finally saw a new hope, a human and a monster living together again... all monsters saw a new possibility that they could live in harmony with monsters.

But you know, things will never be like that, there are good and bad people, and considering the actions of the humans, they were not the best people to live together with, Chara was just an exception to the exception, after all he was a human who was still a child and was raised by the monsters, probably after he found out that humans were a plague and that they were even unkind.

He began to hate his own race, after all... his race imprisoned the monsters, did that to the race that saved him and gave him a home and a new family. They gave him everything in their power... love, affection, friends and everything of the best possible so that he could at least have a better life, now that he was with all of them, literally in the same boats. The humans made the monsters suffer, imprisoning them for fear of the monsters' ability to steal their souls and have immeasurable power. (Some monsters will have power one more than another, some monsters may be stronger and others weaker, even with a human soul)

2. After the death of Chara and Asriel + Asgore's declaration of war:

Well, as we know very well, Asriel and Chara were killed after an attempted plan by Chara that didn't work out very well, and his last request, was that Asriel take him to the village he lived in before, leaving him in the golden flowers... . and obviously Asriel accepted Chara's wish, watching his soul and his body, after the humans saw Asriel holding Chara's body, they thought that Asriel had done that to that child, so they started attacking Asriel, attacking to kill, without even asking what happened, which probably they had some awareness about the monsters... or they just attacked without even knowing what he really was. And then the tragic happened, Chara and Asriel died on the same day. Asriel could even kill countless humans there, but I imagine that not all of them, even with a human soul, I doubt very much that Asriel would be able to destroy all those people, even if they were just villages, something that was probably like that at the time (instead of cities), even so Asriel was very kind and didn't want to kill the humans or hurt the image of the monsters. He was a kind being just like Asgore.

After their deaths, once again the humans destroyed everything that the monsters had at that time, the hope of the monsters being free and living in harmony with the humans. Asgore at this moment, a moment of anger something really fair, declared war against the humans, something the humans had done well before them, and for something much more unfair. And... once again the humans had destroyed everything the monsters had at the moment, destroyed their hopes and a possibility of peace with humanity.

Toriel, with all of this... felt disgust at Asriel's actions, to have declared war against the humans, being that obviously... they had started it all before and that twice (even if the humans didn't know it was happening the second time). She abandoned her responsibilities, her people, and still put all her mistakes and blame on her husband, something Asgore never really did with her, even though she left her whole kingdom and her responsibilities as queen and wife. Her husband she left for something so imbecilic and unfair in the circumstances they were in. It was one race or another in those days.

My opinion: Toriel was the badass of the whole story.

After her husband's declaration of war and her children died, I think she didn't handle that situation well, running away from her responsibilities as a wife and queen.

She abandoned all her people and gave up everything she had built with that man she considered as "husband", "dear", etc.

The point I don't understand, is the reason for this, she felt disgusted by the declaration of war? Because she partially agrees with taking 7 human souls to free the monsters. If she really didn't agree with this, she wouldn't have called him a "coward" because of this, but for declaring war, so much that she said that if he really wanted to free the humans, he would have taken the first human soul and taken 6 more on the surface.

Something that would just make another war, I really don't understand her point. Did she want him to just take the 7 human souls and free his people, without a declaration of war? what is her point? or was she still hoping that the monsters and humans would live in harmony? did she create this in her head after seeing her children see each other as best friends, brothers and sisters and as a family? what is her point? Even if it was something like this, none of these points would be justified for such actions of hers, even more so calling someone a "coward" after running away from everything, she has no right.

She is the coward and hypocrite of the story. Asgore at least knows how to accept her mistakes and deal with them, without having to put the blame, mistakes and problems on other people. And honestly...Asgore was not wrong in declaring war on the humans, the humans have already made them suffer too much and still did they for all that underground stuff. Asgore's only mistake was giving false hope to his people, but I don't blame him totally for that, after all... he was the most broken monster of all, as people said.... " the fallen king", "the broken king", etc. He really doesn't want to do that, he can't even look at you and still misses some proprospect attacks, because he thinks he doesn't deserve mischief, and still holds back from killing you, and even letting you stay with 1 hp so that there is a chance for you to heal and even kill him.

He couldn't go back on his decisions as king, he would have to deal with this mistake he made after giving false hope. Something that Toriel couldn't even criticize or quote, since she just ran away from everything? isn't that right Toriel?

I really don't understand the Undertale fandom. You just like to be fooled and live in a world where people don't make mistakes? what is your purpose in all of this? you don't have good sense or can't compare the situations they were in? you just prefer to call him a "child killer". Since probably none of the children or only one could get to him, most of them were killed by the other monsters, maybe only one got close to him or none at all. Although, he has a certain guilt for these murders, since it was a new law, no humans underground.

Asgore had no choice, and in the circumstances that the monsters found themselves, he had to do something, it was his duty as king, he couldn't stop just because of his wife.

Her morality is not above all things, and her morality is not being used in the right way, and she was considered the "head of the throne". Something kind of imbecilic, honestly because of her childish way of thinking that the world is beautiful, just because she saw a possibility that was destroyed and she still believes in humanity, not knowing how to deal with it all and running away from it all. Really the pathetic one in most of the story related to the Dreemurr family and the monsters is her, not Asgore or anyone else.

And another point, is that not all those children were really innocent and they all had to kill Asgore to get through the barrier (you need a human soul and a monster chief soul to get through the barrier). Although, I don't blame them entirely for this, Toriel probably didn't even warn them about it, just as she didn't warn Frisk.

Some descriptions of their souls implied that they were not really as innocent as you might think. Some of the weapons even had the dust of some monster on them.

Deltarune, Dreemurr family: 

Well, in Deltarune the Dreemurr family literally has the entire family alive, but yet... Toriel still divorced Asgore, which is really strange, considering that this time Asgore probably didn't do anything major.

What could have happened?

Toriel lost feelings for Asgore? or something to do with a child or something like that, involving some death or even a missing person.

Yes, I am talking about Dess. Apparently she is reported missing in Deltarune, some even consider her death(?).

This might be the only plausible reason for Toriel to divorce Asgore. Instead of something like loss of interest/feeling for the person or something more stupid.

But, if that's what it is.... I imagine it wasn't even Asgore's fault, but still Toriel considers it his fault, only she considers it his fault.

She really doesn't know how to compare things... most probably the cops had to call off their search, after all... she could be dead or there really was no way to go any deeper, considering that the cops there can't just leave a small town alone for so many days just because of one child.

Yes, it sounds kind of silly, but the police can't risk countless lives or leave unavailable police officers just because of one child, even if she is the mayor's daughter.

Police officers have the duty to take difficult decisions, even if sometimes they have to make some sacrifices, but they still have to continue their service, and we don't even know if their disappearance was because of something or someone.

A lot of people imagine that she went somewhere far away with Kris and others and she ended up getting lost in some dangerous place related to snow, ice or something(?).

People have to stop thinking that one life is more important than the others, sometimes we have to make difficult decisions.

One or 7 lives are not worth an entire unprotected city or an entire race, just because of your morally imbecile or something.

That makes you selfish, even imbecilic.

Honestly, society is kind of hypocritical, all they want is for you to make decisions without mistakes, as if human beings are perfect, and they are not. And when you make a decision, it's hard, they can label you as a monster or some "horrible" being. If you don't have many choices to make in that situation... or even situations that you can't take care of or continue with.

Just to be clear, I am not sure about any of this, but yes, I imagine it is something related to this.

Instead of being something like loss of interest or something like that in the person. Some people think that because it was betrayal, but I imagine that it wasn't, if it was really betrayal by Asgore, Toriel wouldn't even look him in the face, and Asgore wouldn't even try to get back with her, after all... Asgore knows well when he's wrong, and it's really a pity that he himself doesn't know that he's not to blame. Decisions are made, they can be good or bad, you don't have the power to make everything the way you want it.

You can't avoid certain things or make correct decisions all the time, everybody sometime can make some fatal mistake, but it's really not entirely your fault.

We are beings that make mistakes, sometimes they are not even mistakes, but just decisions that sometimes are not even wrong or right, just choices that must be made, even if a choice can hurt someone, but still... it will still save a lot of people, and you will for sure feel guilty about it, but don't worry, this is normal, and for sure you will get over it with time... even if it takes a while. Honestly... Asgore's choice was certainly not wrong, or even his fault.

These are choices that must be made, even if it is difficult for him or not. All of this is something related to Asgore's former job, that he was eventually taken off the police force by the mayor.

Mini-theory: Also, I wonder, is this person...who gave this information to Toriel? That would be quite interesting actually, I hope the game lets the players have more control and fix things that should be fixed or things that need to be improved, even if it is not the ending we ultimately want. 

But despite all this ... I ... still love them, because surely, if they knew how to face their problems better, they would be able to maintain a better relationship and get back together again.

But Toriel's hypocritical behavior... doesn't help one bit, but I still have a little faith in this couple of goats.

[ironwoodprotectionsquad]

As promised, I have my stupid long analysis of the themes of saving everyone between RWBY and my all time favorite game UNDERTALE. I decided to finally do this because I saw Undertale was on sale on steam and I absolutely ADORE the game so I thought what better excuse to finally make this post then this sale? But if for some reason you don’t want to buy the game, I would still highly recommend watching a playthrough of the game because it really is an amazing game (jacksepticeye has a playthrough of both the genocide route and the pacifist and they’re both a great time). Regardless I will warn this post will have major MAJOR endgame spoilers for Undertale so please be warned before continuing on. 

One of the big themes Volume 8 of RWBY tries to push onto viewers is the fact that RWBY is trustful and hopeful and will do everything they can to save everyone. Only....they don’t. Their is one character that they almost gleefully abandon with zero attempt to reach out or help him. James Ironwood. 

We spent the entirety of Volume 7 watching this man slowly crumble under the weight of the war against Salem. He’s spent since the ending of volume 3 preparing and fighting this war in essence alone. The mains have been out and about doing things of course but James doesn’t know that. He is having to proceed as if the other kingdoms can’t and won’t do anything to continue preparing for Salem. He had to proceed as if he was alone and the weight of that....it broke him. And we had the mains in the entirety of volume 7 watching him crumble and break and did....nothing but watch. 

This only gets worse in volume 8 when he starts completely free falling out of control with the mains making things even worse for him the entire time. They insist they are doing everything they can to save everyone all the while intentionally and purposefully abandoning James and leaving him to spiral and die alone. Despite insisting they want to save everyone, their actions towards James tell a very different story. 

This brings us to Undertale. Now since this is a game their isn’t technically a canon ending, and with how many different endings you can get their will obviously be different interpretations on what the true ‘canon’ ending should be. However for the purpose of this post, we’re going to be talking about the true pacifist route. In this path, you do not kill a single monster no matter what. You must either run away or spare every monster you run into. 

I know technically Frisk isn’t the one deciding what to do and it’s technically the player who is making the choice. But the point is, the option exists to save everyone. Or almost everyone. 

During the true pacifist route, you discover that the main antagonist of the game, Flowey, is actually Asriel, the son of King Asgore and Toriel. He, before the events of the game, was killed by humans and through a long convoluted series of events was eventually revived into a flower that had no soul. He couldn’t feel anything anymore because of this and slowly he became a monster that took pleasure in killing and bringing back others over and over again for his sick entertainment. During the game, Flowey steals the human souls Asgore had collected that he hoped to use to destroy the barrier keeping monsters trapped underground along with all of the souls of the monsters trapped their that come to Frisks rescue in the final fight. The game makes sure you know it was wrong, but still in the true pacifist route you do everything you can to save him. In the end in a moment of desperation you repeatedly decide to save him until you finally break through to him and he returns back to his child form. 

In this moment Asriel apologizes for everything he has done and the game even gives you the choice on whether or not to forgive him.

Obviously whether or not you forgive him doesn’t change the ending of the game and Asriel here....expects you to not. But to me at least, the game kind of wants you to forgive him, with everything you’ve gone through to save him, it almost feels wrong not to, especially knowing everything he suffered and went through. After your choice, Asriel tells you he can’t keep everyone’s souls that he has to let them go but in doing so, he will eventually stop being able to feel anything anymore, no empathy or kindness and eventually will turn back into a flower. Despite knowing this, he still released the souls and uses the combined power of the human souls and every monsters soul in the underground to destroy the barrier that has imprisoned them so they can finally be free. 

After he does this you are given the choice to either comfort him or not and honestly it always felt like the game wanted you to comfort him so like any sane person, I did and Asriel has this to say.

And it hurt. He was so scared of turning back into a flower again but...he does it anyways. He lets it happen to him because it is for the good of everyone else to do so. He sacrifices being able to live and feel to free everyone from their imprisonment. And this entire situation is treated as a very sad and heartbreaking thing. No matter what you do and how hard you try, you can’t save Asriel. He is doomed to turn back into a flower again.

Okay so I imagine you’re thinking “Now wait a minute, what is the point of all of this in both RWBY and Undertale their is someone that can’t be saved so what’s the big deal?” Well...that’s not entirely true. While in both RWBY and Undertale their is one person that cannot be saved (Pretending for two seconds Rwby actually evacuated everyone off of Atlas like they claim which let’s be real did not happen) in Undertale the final battle of the pacifist run is trying to save everyone, including Asriel. The game specifically even tells you that you sense another soul that needs to be saved when you think you’ve saved all of your friends and it’s revealed it’s Asriel whose soul still needs to be saved. Despite the ending, Frisk still tries to save Asriel, they still do everything in their power to reach Asriel when all hope seems lost to be able to. And that’s the difference. In Undertale, it is hopeless but Frist still tries, in RWBY James could be saved, we see him being reasoned with and listening to others but RWBY can’t be bothered to try. Winter can’t be bothered, Ozpin and Oscar can’t be bothered not even Qrow can be bothered to even try and reach him. They don’t go back to him and try to reason with him, they don’t try to tell him their plan to give him hope, they do nothing and declare him too far gone to be saved. 

Asriel generally is given sympathy and compassion. The game plays sad music when you’re trying to reach Asriel to save him and when speaking with him afterwards, you can forgive and comfort him and even backtrack the entire game to speak with him again and spend a little more time with him while he can still feel. Sure you don’t have to do these things, but the game let’s you. It leans into this idea of feeling pain for what he has suffered through and his terrible fate. With James though....we’re supposed to clap and cheer when he breaks. We’re supposed to see him as nothing more then a villain who got what he deserved. We aren’t supposed to feel....anything when James dies. And that’s the difference, that’s the issue. While in one instance, the characters are given sympathy and compassion in the other, despite being just as worthy of compassion....get’s none. 

Maybe this whole thing is just nonsensical rambling that makes no sense but....I just had to get this all out their. If you read the whole thing thanks for reading. I hope if nothing else one more person might give Undertale a try because it is a wonderful game. 

[fan-dom-stuff]

Smptale

a dream smp undertale au just because

i would first of like to say that this was first created around the pogtopia arc so some some things wont really fit anymore, but im not going to chance them cause i like them this way. also this is an au and im pretty sure i can do what i want

starting with sbi

phil as toriel, techno as asgore, wilbur as chara and tommy as asriel

wilbur was a human that fell down into the underground, after he had to flee his village when it was destroyed by someone he trusted, but he wasnt found by tommy. he was found by a kind monster/hybrid that took him to new home and healed him, but he didnt trust them, so he ran and hid away. thats when he met tommy. he wont admit it, but that loud kid that kept bothering him started to grow on him (he also wont admit that he cried the first time tommy called him his brother). they ended up becoming really close.

then one day they try to steal food or something but sht went down and in the end they were brought to the kings of the underground. and while tommy was scared wilbur was terrified bcs unlike tommy and other monsters the kings would know that he was a human. this would be his death sentence and he didnt want to lose tommy. but against all odds king philza and his son pupil technoblade took them in.

and wilbur grew to love monsters/hybrids but he also started to despise humans. it was just unfair that all these wonderful people were trapped down here. so when he found out there was a way to break the barrier he took it. he roped tommy into it and set everything up. while ‘playing around’ he ended up causing in the garden which put him into critical condition and he ended up passing away. tommy tried to pull through but ended up not doing anything. he died shortly after coming back in the thrownroom.

phil and techno both mourned for their lost family but their opinions how to deal with it were very split. techno wanted to wage war against the humans for taking tommys live while phil tried to reason with him. they would never be able to find the humans that did it and even then they should focus on ensuring their kingdoms safety, not on futile revenge. it all came to a halt after techno killed the first human that fell down after wilbur. phil told techno if he believed this was justified and right than he has to do it alone and went to life in the ruins in hope to stop and safe whoever fell down next.

some other things:

- i replaced the flower with dreams icon thingie. it was a stuffed toy that was gifted to tommy shortly after phil and techno took them in.

- wilbur is a ghost that follows our protagonist (take a wild guess who that is) through the underground and helps them. his hatred for humans cooled of during his time as a ghost after seeing multiple children fail to escape and go back to their families

- technos want for revenge also cooled down but he thinks he has already gone to far to back out again

this is all for now, i hope someone likes it at least. ill probably add something later on. if anyone wants to know anything just send me an ask

[undead-tale]

Little Known Fact

There was an original version of Undead Tale I wrote back in 2017 or even late 2016 (the dates are fuzzy at best).

It was completely different in tone, writing, character designs, plot... it was basically a different story but with a similar starting point.

I felt like drawing the Sans design from that version, now called "Classic", compared to the final design, or the "True" design, as I consider the current version of Undead Tale the true, final version.

Here is the drawing, and below that will be a list of all the changes and descriptions of the differences behind a read more as to keep the post nice to see if someone just wants to look at the art (the stuff below the read more goes very in depth, be warned, it's long).

Let's start from the beginning with what changed:

Both stories start with an outbreak stemming from the lab, however,

Classic does not have the backstory of a corrupted reset corrupting the amalgamates and determinations properties. The origins in Classic were never explored.

In the True version, the origins were explored, and the reason why the world is the way it is is also explored through Before the Reset.

In Classic, Undyne fights a massive amalgamate thing in the Lab in the very beginning of the story instead of slowly easing into the events of the outbreak, which True did.

Chara was never present in Classic, and also there was no controlling force of the corrupted.

Corrupted is a term only in True, Classic doesn't have a term to refer to the infected monsters.

Both stories have Frisk fall after the initial outbreak, but Frisk in Classic falls way earlier than Frisk in True (as far as I can see, the timeline of Classic, unfortunately, is not very clear)

Classic explores the surface and humanity above during the events of the Underground. In True, the surface is only seen when Frisk falls and after monster kind escapes. Humanity in True wiped itself out with a war where the details aren't known, and won't be explored, as it's not important. In Classic, there is an outbreak similar to the Underground on the surface which causes an apocalypse.

Both stories have Sans lose an eye, though, as seen in the image, the eye is swapped. Beyond that, there are differences in the two Sans.

Classic Sans is a silently hopeful character, different from normal Sans compared to True, who is basically normal Sans but with some darker tendencies and visions of past timelines (called moments in the story).

Classic Sans lost most if not all magic ability when he was struck by Undyne, resorting to using physical weapons such as pipes or any blunt weapon.

True Sans retains most magic ability, such as teleportation, time stopping, and bones, he just can't use them as often. He does lose Gaster Blasters however, as they would take too much magical energy for him to muster normally.

Classic's outfit has a fluffy hood and a zipped up, torn hoodie, compared to True, who is normal Sans with bandages wrapped around the left side of his skull.

Classic only lost his eye, True had the whole left side of his skull horribly mangled and fractured, which is why the bandage size of both is different.

Classic only has the bandage, True also has the device strapped to his ribs that connects with his soul to amplify the healing process.

True Sans has what are called "moments", where he'll freeze up as he sees a vision of a past timeline, either consisting of the Judgement Hall or of Snowdin which get worse until reaching a turning point in the story near the halfway point. Classic has no such things.

Moving on from Sans, let's go into the other characters in general

Papyrus in Classic retains some confidence, however, he is much more broken and emotionally torn, acting out of character at points (pretty much everyone in Classic is out of character).

True Papyrus is very much like normal Papyrus, only taking things a bit more seriously and being more cautious and concerned for his friends, due to his circumstances.

Classic Papyrus has a kill count of normal monsters, True, however, does not.

Classic Papyrus and Snowdin in general are enemies of the Royal Guard, due to a plot point where Snowdin and the Royal Guard enter a conflict.

True Papyrus and Snowdin are very much allies and apart of the Royal Guard, Papyrus being ranked Lieutenant, commanding all Snowdin units.

Undyne in Classic acts very out of character with the little time she appeared in, she isn't as confident, she's a lot more cold, and attacks Sans with intent to kill.

True Undyne is like normal Undyne, and her attack against Sans was completely accidental, as she meant to attack another character named Fang for kidnapping Sans and Papyrus.

Papyrus and Undyne fight with the intent of killing one another in Classic. In True, Papyrus fights to slow Undyne down and let Sans and Frisk escapes, Undyne fights to get past him and capture/kill Frisk, attempting to pass him with every opportunity, not wanting to hurt him. In True, neither were fighting to kill.

Classic Undyne exiles herself out of shame after her battle with Papyrus in Snowdin. True Undyne remains the Captain of the Royal Guard throughout the entire story.

Classic Asgore is seen too little to really judge his character, same for Alphys. True is normal Asgore but affected by circumstances, again, same for Alphys.

Mettaton in Classic is missing, while Mettaton in True is similar to his normal self, albeit more cruel and harsh when Frisk meets him, becoming a minor antagonist before having a change of heart at the end of their fight in the CORE.

Mettaton's disappearance in Classic would've tied into a plot point, which I'll explore later on.

Classic Toriel allows monsters from Snowdin into the Ruins during the outbreak, accidentally bringing it to the Ruins. No such event happens in True.

Classic Toriel is the most in character of the cast, remaining mostly consistent with normal Toriel. True Toriel is normal Toriel until she leaves the Ruins, where circumstances and events change her.

Classic Flowey is infected very early on, True Flowey remains uninfected and even becomes the controller of the corrupted near the end. In True, he is very much normal Flowey.

Classic Frisk is more like fanon Frisk (meaning she's just a soft little pacifist who wouldn't harm a fly. Glad I didn't continue with this in True, because holy hell that would've been boring).

True Frisk is much more of her own character, she doesn't want to hurt anyone, but she won't hesitate to fight when she knows she's in danger, plus her backstory and her motivations, along with having to deal with the trauma's shes faced later on.

True Frisk also older, being 10 when she first falls and being around 13 at the end. Classic Frisk is around 8 when she falls, if I remember right.

Classic didn't go far enough into the plot for Classic Frisk to even leave the Ruins or have to face inner demons and trauma. True Frisk is very, very different.

Classic Chara doesn't even exist. True Chara is corrupted determination in it's purest form, and is a prominent antagonist, controlling the corrupted at one point.

There are characters exclusive to both version. In True, Fang, Ferno, and the entire gang Fang leads are exclusive to True.

In Classic, the exclusive characters are Artico, Stitch, Rycher (pronounced ri ker for some reason), Carly (Artico's daughter) and Ethan (Artico's son). These characters were a part of a spinoff story called "A New Monarch", which was establishing a new kingdom/rival for the Royal Guard. They would've been antagonists later on, similar to the Saviors from The Walking Dead, if memory serves me right.

Rycher and Stitch would've had been in a relationship later on.

Another exclusive character to Classic is Flynn, who is the third monster Frisk meets after Flowey and Toriel (he was an OC I made on Undertale Amino years ago, my account on which has since been deleted)

There is one more Classic exclusive character named Charlie. I go more in depth on him later.

There are more Classic exclusive characters, but they're not notable enough to go into here.

Finally moving on from characters, we go onto the plot/setting

The basic plot of Classic goes like this (I won't do the same for True, as that is very, very long, and I'd like people to read it on AO3):

The outbreak begins, Asgore is escorted from the Capital as it falls. Sans and Papyrus fight back an attack from Snowdin, and set up defenses.

A plot point arises where the weather in Snowdin becomes harsh, to the point where monsters die outside the village or flee to the Ruins. One of the monsters is bit before hand, and brings the infection into the Ruins, infecting Flowey and beginning to spread there.

Members of the Snowdin Safe Zone steal from the Royal Guard, which causes the Guard to retaliate against Snowdin and assault the town, Sans and Papyrus fighting them back, killing many. This is the fight where Sans is almost killed by Undyne, who is then almost killed by Papyrus before he rushes to get Sans to the village.

Sans loses his eye, and Undyne exiles herself.

Frisk falls later on, almost get's killed by Flowey, but is saved and taken home by Toriel. This introduces the fact that Toriel's home is now full of monster survivors and that the rest of the Ruins has fallen.

Frisk takes time to heal, and meets Flynn.

In the Capital, within areas known as "Dark Zones" (pretty much ripping off Dying Light), new infected begin appearing simply known as "Them". This leads to the death of two monsters in a short story titled "Them". In True, these would be turned into the acolytes that appear at the end.

Sans and Papyrus receive a broadcast from MTT Resort begging for help, and decide to investigate. They then go to sleep on their way, and are split up, Sans being taken to the Capital while Papyrus is captured and brought to MTT Resort (don't ask, I don't remember why or how).

Sans wakes up in the Capital on a high up roof and encounters a character named Charlie, who brings him to his group in the city hall. He teaches Sans how to survive in the capital later on.

Papyrus wakes up in MTT Resort, hung in the lobby by a rope around his neck with infected all around. He is saved by a stranger on a walkie talkie who begins to tell him what happened. He then tells Papyrus about a mysterious monster who will kill him upon sight, and then tells Papyrus to flee. Papyrus does so and returns to Snowdin.

Stitch and Rycher are brought to the cavern where the new kingdom is by Artico, meeting all the other characters listed in the "A New Monarch" section.

On the surface, an outbreak occurs (somehow, I don't remember), and soldiers move in to the city near Mount Ebott, called Sanctuary City, to save a doctor. The doctor kills himself (ripping off State of Decay: Lifeline).

Scrapped plot lines include:

Disclaimer: The details are very fuzzy at best with this, unknown/forgotten at worst

Mettaton Madness: An event where a group of monsters from Waterfall would have to contend with an army of defective Mettaton drones in the CORE. I don't remember much else about this. Maybe Mettaton would be involved? I don't know.

A plotline on the surface where a city is burning down and being pelted by meteorites or missiles (I don't remember) and a group of survivors have to escape.

Papyrus would die at some point, due to being bit. Sans would put him down. This would happen after Frisk left the Ruins.

Snowdin would fall at some point.

Undyne would have her own story about finding herself or something, I don't know, but I know I wanted to do something with her at one point.

The New Monarch and the Royal Guard would get into some conflict, maybe.

More characters would die I think, and maybe Soriel would be canon? I genuinely don't know and I don't remember. Like I said, everything about this section is fuzzy, as I didn't take notes and I don't remember half of this story anymore.

That's pretty much it.

These two stories are very, very different. If you want to know just how the True version goes, please check out the link to it on AO3. It's long, and it's actually finished compared to Classic, which is not publicly available now, but I might change that in the future. Classic won't be expanded on, and I won't write anything for it ever again. I'm not sure if I'll abandon it entirely, as I could still draw the characters from it, but in all likely hood it'll be forgotten.

True is a much better and more well written story anyway. Classic was just edgy and ripped off so many other zombie stories, and even other Undertale AU's, since it was slightly inspired by Axetale (I saw one video of it, really glad I didn't take many elements from that dumpster fire of an AU) and other fanon edgy content.

Overall, I'm proud of what I've done with the True story and I'm ecstatic to have gotten it finished and released, having people actually read it is so much fun.

I just felt like going into how Undead Tale really started, and the origins it had as an edgy Undertale story I wrote in 2016 - 2017 that really doesn't hold up at all anymore.

[smellslikefeathers]

So I heard people are hating on my husband, Asgore Dreemurr, a LOT lately.

Look, if you don’t like him for one reason or another, that’s fine. You’re entitled to your opinion. What I don’t appreciate is y’all going up to Asgore fans and trying to make them feel bad for liking/loving Asgore.

Yes, we know he killed children. He killed six children. He is a serial murderer. He committed a grave crime against humanity, and is basically a war criminal for intentionally killing innocent human civilians after declaring war on all humans.

However, allow me to point out something you haters seem to love overlooking: Asgore genuinely feels horrible for what he’s done. He took no pleasure in killing those children, and the guilt weighs heavily on him. When the children died, he had them mummified and placed in coffins, all presumably with their names on them.

Asgore tried to keep a happy, hopeful face for his people, but when Frisk meets them, it comes crumbling down. He cries during the battle with them. He tells Frisk that he can’t stand the pain anymore. He is suicidal. He tells them he just wants to see Toriel and Asriel again. He begs them to take his SOUL and leave the Underground, to end this war once and for all.

If Frisk kills him, he SMILES as he dies. If Frisk spares him, but they have killed Flowey in a previous run, Asgore kills himself when he realizes he can’t give Frisk a happy ending, imploring them to take his SOUL before he does.

And yes, he did let his people suffer, as Toriel pointed out. But Asgore didn’t do this on purpose, and he never really wanted this war in the first place. He was furious that his son had been murdered, and he reacted out of anger. How can you expect someone who is normally such a gentle soul to carry through with a declaration of war against an entire race of people?

Asgore is a flawed man, very flawed, but he’s also a good man with a kind heart. He’s just made some terrible mistakes. Though from the look of things in Undertale’s True Ending, he seems to have been forgiven for those mistakes. Is it realistic? Probably not, but this is a video game about magic and monsters.

If Asgore had taken pleasure in killing those children, and he was a cruel king who took equal pleasure in making his people suffer, then I would despise him for being a truly evil person. But he’s not like that at all. I adore him because he gives me hope that one day, I can move on from my own mistakes and learn to forgive myself.

If you think my loving Asgore so damn much makes me a terrible person, fuck you. Don’t you dare insinuate that I can’t be forgiven for my own sins. That I can’t move on with my life, change, and become a better person. That I’m not deserving of love from those who care about me. Fuck. You.

I know plenty of Asgore haters are Toriel fans. I love Toriel too, but you need to realize that she’s just as flawed as Asgore. She’s self-righteous, stubborn, and uptight. Monsters in the Ruins don’t talk to her because they’re intimidated by her; what kind of ruler was she when she was queen!? She also seems to lack a great deal of empathy, absorbed in her own feelings and not really caring about anyone else’s unless it’s a child. And even when it is a child, she deludes herself into thinking she knows what’s best for them when she’s really thinking about herself.

And let me remind you that Toriel could have easily journeyed with any of those children she took care of and protected them from other monsters, maybe even talked some sense into Asgore... she could have FOUGHT Asgore, for crying out loud! Instead she stayed in the Ruins, over and over again, not making any sort of difference in stopping him. She’s a coward.

AND DO NOT EVEN GET ME STARTED ON HOW SHE ACTS IN DELTARUNE BECAUSE HOLY SHIT THAT’S A WHOLE NEW LEVEL OF BITCH

tl;dr-- Leave us Asgore fans alone. We love him, faults and all, and there’s nothing wrong with that. And maybe, since you haters seem to be so insistent on us remembering his faults, you should remember Toriel’s.

[sudoscience]

New In Town: Background Info

Click here for a version with working hyperlinks.

Although it's never explicitly stated by the games, I'm going to assume the story is set in the US, or at least a country like it. The existence of monsters likely altered the course of several events in human history, so it's possible things are actually radically different. For the purposes of this story, I'll assume most things are still the same unless stated otherwise, (e.g. the American Revolution was still in 1776, and World War II was still in the early-middle of the 20th Century.).

Let's also just go ahead and say the story takes place in 201X for now.

[For the record, I pronounce 201X as "twenty-ex-teen". I guess you could say it "two-oh-one-ex", but why would you? I also assume it refers to the whole decade, so, for example, when I say "the early part of 201X", that could mean anywhere between 1 January 2010 and 31 December 2014.]

Navigation:

Humans and Monsters (Current headcanon)

Humans and Monsters (Old) (Preserved for posterity)

Footnotes

Master Post

Humans and Monsters

Humans and monsters have always coexisted relatively peacefully, at least as well as humans and humans. There have been some smaller wars over land and resources, but nothing like the war in Undertale (hereinafter "The War").

Someone still remembers that other universe, though. The universe where monsters freely used magic. The universe where a monster could absorb a human SOUL. The universe where the monsters were sealed underground and later systematically slaughtered by a human child. Perhaps that someone is W. D. Gaster. Perhaps it is Chara. I haven't decided yet. Until that time comes, I'll call that person Individual 1.

Individual 1 remembers the world of Undertale, but the version they remember is the one in which the genocide route takes place. After that world is destroyed, Individual 1 uses their DETERMINATION to bring the world back. They restore the world to long before The War takes place. Individual 1 convinces the King of All Monsters (who is probably someone other than Asgore) to strictly curtail the use of magic. It is Individual 1's belief that the only way to prevent The War from occurring is if humans never learn that monsters can absorb their souls. This is why we don't see evidence of magic in Deltarune.1

Sometime in 1965, a man in Twin Falls (Bill Hammond) learns of the monsters' hidden power. He attempts to alert the government, but it's years before anyone in power takes him seriously. Most people view him as a crackpot; he's this universe's Alex Jones. However, he begins to gain a following among the commoners, who take to calling themselves the Arcane Enforcement Unit. Hate crimes against monsters become more frequent, and the government establishes the Directorate of Inter-Species Relations to combat this.

Hammond's influence grows, and he runs for president multiple times, though he rarely gets more than 2% of the vote. In 1996, his campaign performs surprisingly well, but he is assassinated. His following was strongest in Twin Falls, and it once again becomes a hot spot for anti-monster sentiment, only this time it extends to humans who are considered "monster sympathizers", including Kris's birth parents and eventually Rudy, who is born around this time.

Paul and Judy Harper are DISR employees in Twin Falls. In 2003, the year Asriel is born,2 the DISR begins a joint operation with DHS and FBI to infiltrate the AEU, which is now suspected as a terrorist organization. The Harpers are assigned to the team, Operation Golden Flower, as undercover agents in 2005. In 2007, Judy becomes pregnant. Later that year, their cover is nearly blown. In order to keep their child safe, they begin making arrangements with some old friends of theirs, the Dreemurr family in Hometown. Their son is born in December,​3 and adopted by the Dreemurrs immediately. A few months later, Paul and Judy are killed; their death is not publicized classified in order to avoid jeopardizing the operation.

In the early part of 201X, an AEU supporter named Noah Trey Ullman is elected mayor of Twin Falls. This is when things really start to go south. Ullman incites violence against monsters and monster sympathizers. They usually stay out of the majority monster neighborhoods, but they tend to target monsters who are known to affiliate with humans. This is what prompts Rudy to move to Hometown.

Humans and Monsters (OLD)

Humans and monsters have always coexisted, but there's always been a lot of tension between them. For most of their history, they've lived more or less independently of each other. As humans began to industrialize, they began to expand and encroach on monster territory.1 Interactions with monsters became more frequent, as did altercations. While there hasn't been an outright war between humans and monsters, there have been frequent skirmishes, akin to the US and the Native Americans. There was a period where humans sought to make use of magic, primarily by employing the monsters. The monsters were often subjected to inhumane conditions, and uprisings, while infrequent, were not unheard of.

Knowing that a monster with one or more human souls could become a being of great power, this practice was eventually outlawed. Humans became reluctant to hire monsters at all, and most monsters eventually relocated to their own settlements. These are similar to Indian reservations, with the distinction that they are not considered sovereign. In order to keep things under control, the government created the Directorate of Inter-species Relations in the mid-19th Century. Under the pretense of fairness, the DISR banned the use of magic about 100 years ago;2 this would theoretically allow more monsters to be hired, so long as they weren't being exploited for their magical abilities. In practice, because magic is so central to a monster's existence, this drastically changed the monsters' way of life. Initially, smaller acts of magic were allowed, but as more monsters moved into settlements, their interactions with humans became less frequent, and the humans became more fearful, having only the legends and rumors to inform them rather than their own experiences. Eventually, all magic was banned, and the Arcane Enforcement Unit was created in 1956 to enforce said ban.

Of course, some monsters remained in the human cities. They felt they still had ties there, and refused to move. They are largely relegated to their own neighborhoods, and the AEU does its best to "gently encourage" them to relocate. Other than the AEU, very few humans interact with monsters.3

What happened five years ago?

There was a change in leadership at the AEU, and they became much more aggressive in their policing.

[I think this was a separate subsection because I originally planned on writing more, but now it seems pretty silly to have a subsection with just one sentence.]

Footnotes

Notes for New Info

There are several reasons I decided to scrap the old backstory, but this was probably the main one. I really liked the theory that Deltarune takes place after the Genocide Route, and I wanted to expand on that. I'm no longer sure I buy that theory, but I still think it's a cool idea. ↑

As noted in the "Headcanon for Existing Characters", I originally planned for Asriel to have started college early, which would further demonstrate how exceptional he is, and also factor into the resentment Kris wishes they didn't have of him. This is also his first semester of college, which is why Kris is so worried he'll have changed. I think I'll keep him a freshman, but increase the age gap between them. When Asriel gets back from college, he'll have just turned 19, while Kris will be turning 14 very soon. I'm assuming he's returning for Thanksgiving Break (and also that Thanksgiving still exists in this world), and this is the first time he's been back home since he left for college. ↑

Yes, Kris's full name is Krismas (no, not really). Their birthday is 22 December, and Asriel's is 15 September (unless there's an official birthday listed somewhere, in which case it's that). I hope it's okay if I write that Kris is biologically male, even though they identify as non-binary. Since I've already changed their pronouns in the main story, this is probably the only time it will ever be mentioned, unless maybe they go swimming or something. I got the idea from @caretaker-au and how they represent Chara as male non-binary (is that the right way to say that?); I know some people find that blog to be problematic, but I think that was more to do with them drawing porn of Chara and Asriel, not because they drew Chara as biologically male. (For the record, I was not aware of that when I started following them, especially since Tumblr banned porn a year before I even bought Undertale.) ↑

Notes for Old Info

Another reason I dropped this: I'm pretty sure this was inspired by @wolven0ne-universe's "Long Road" AU. Actually, there's a lot that was inspired by Long Road, even in the new backstory: the decision to have multiple OCs, the way magic supposedly works, humans exploting monsters for their magic, a shadowy organization that abducts monsters because of their magical abilities, etc. Some of this is attributable to the fact that I never read fanfics prior to playing Undertale, so some of these were "inspired" by Long Road simply by virtue of it being, like, the second fanfic I ever read, ever. (The first was "Flowey is Not A Good Life Coach".) Anyway, my point here is that I dropped this backstory in part because I didn't want it to be too similar to Long Road, not because I suddenly stopped liking Long Road. ↑

Here's an additional reason I changed the backstory: I wasn't sure if this was a believable timeline. I feel like it's plausible that human society would forget that monster magic involves a lot more than just a monster's ability to abosrb a human soul in just 100 years, but that doesn't seem like nearly enough time for monster society to forget that monsters can use magic. Plus, if monsters and humans have coexisted for all of human history, and monsters have been using magic for like 99% of said history, that seems like it could have created a lot of ripple effects that I would spend way too much time thinking about. Like, what if the existence of magic resulted in the first Industrial Revolution happening in the 15th Century? What would Earth look like in 201X if that were the case? I just didn't want to deal with all of that. ↑

Other than wanting to believe that Deltarune takes place after the Genocide Route, the next most important factor in my decision to scrap this backstory is that it's just really dark. The story has enough potentially depressing shit that I didn't need to add a monster Trail of Tears on top of it all. Plus, I was worried it might come across as racially insensitive. ↑

[yougainedlove]

I got another good imagine if youre up to write!! 👀 Asgore telling his S/O about his past (asriel dying, the six humans that fell down after, etc), and reacting to them giving him a tight hug and thanking him for telling them?? ❤️💞 I love him so much omfg

Sooooo I meant to keep this short and sweet but FUCK, uh...

anyway, I’ll be sobbing in the corner if you need me, feel free to join because I absolutely cried while writing this, mmmMMM,,,

-

                             when youlook, I’m afraid of what you see                                          but you say, “Show me”                                            yousay, “Show me.”

                                      ―IdinaMenzel, “Show Me”

When(Name)sitsdown with Asgore tonight, it’s different.

There’sa tense energy surrounding him, and by now theyknow him well enough to tell that he’s nervous. Hedoesn’t even let them cuddle up next to him like they do in theevenings. Instead, he goes stiff before pulling away, then says in anunbelievably somber tone that he wants to talk to them. He phrases itas a question, an, “Is it okay if we talk…?”, but they knowthat whatever he’s planning to talk about, it’s something heneedsto say.

Sothey put their hand over his paw ―even that earns a flinch ―and say yes.

Ofcourse, they couldn’t predict the heartbreaking tale that was tofollow.

It’ssomething he doesn’t truly drag out, yet he obviously wants to makesure he tells them everything about… everything.Itstarts with his ex-wife, Toriel, who (Name) has actually met, andAsgore living together, with their son Asriel. Although they knew hehad kids at one point, they didn’t know any real details until now.

Oneday, a human child fell, a child named Chara. Asriel brought themhome, Asgore and Toriel basically adopted them, and for a few shortyears, things were… good. Despitebeing trapped underground, everyone was actually full of love andhope.The wistful look on Asgore’s face when he talks about that time isalmost painful. It’s the expression of someone looking back on afond memory that happened before something went wrong.

Theway he talks about it makes it seem like that was the best time inhis life.

Whatfollows proves that as the truth.

Outof nowhere, Chara fell gravelyill. Asgore saysthat neither he nor Torielhaveanyidea what happened; only that suddenly theirchild was wailingbecause their stomach hurt so badly and there were blisters aroundtheir mouth. They screamed about wanting to go home ―that they were going to die, and they wanted to see the goldenflowers on the surface, in the village they came from, beforethey passed away.

Thetears in Asgore’s eyes start when he says that therewas nothing anyone could do.The barrier was still blocking any escape, and even though humanscould get in by falling into the mountain, nobody could get out. Theycouldn’t grant their child’s dying wish.

Hecan’t even look (Name) in the eyes as he says that while they weretrying to find some way to get Chara to the surface, they got rapidlysicker until they couldn’t keep any food or water down and the lifewas visibly draining from their body.

Theydied the next night.

Beingtheir brother and best friend, Asriel was distraught, and wanted tocarry them to the surface to make sure they were laid among thosegolden flowers. His nature allowed him to absorb Chara’s SOUL,creating an incredibly powerful being, and with both of themcombined, he could get through the barrier. And so he did.

Asgoresays tiredly that the next part is something he and Toriel had to befilled in on afterit happened.As it was told to them betweenweak breaths,Asriel carried their body there to the surface, placing them gentlyon a bed of the flowers when he arrived at their village. Hestayed for a moment to look at them, presumably paying his respectsto the sibling he loved so much, and then the human villagers sawhim.

Itwas all a horrible, tragic misunderstanding. When they saw him withChara’s body, a dead human child at the feet of a frighteningmonster, they assumed that Asriel had killed them. In revenge, inpursuit of justice for this poor child, they came at him with alltheir strength.

Asrieldidn’t fight back. As strong as he was in that form, with both hisSOUL and Chara’s, he could have ended the life of every singlehuman who was attacking him. But he didn’t.

Apparently,all he did was smile.

Finallyhe was able to get away, returning to the Underground. He draggedhimself into the throne room, where Asgore and Toriel were waitingfor him to come back.

Hestumbled into the flowers there, managed to whisper an explanation ofwhat had happened, and took his last breath.

Justlike that, Asgore and Toriel had lost their entire family in onenight.

Asother people have explained to (Name) before, they already know thatwhen monsters die, they turn to dust. And Chara’s body remained onthe surface.

Theking and queen didn’t even have a body to bury for the deaths oftwo children.

Bythis point Asgore is speaking through tears and sobs. He says he wassoangry… thatin the moment, he couldn’t feel anything else. That it wasn’tenough the humans had taken away their freedom, but now they hadstolen these two precious children and every shred of hope theUnderground had been clinging to.

Furiousenough was he to declare war on the whole of humanity, promising thatany human who fell down Mt. Ebott would be an enemy, that he wouldtake their SOULs, seven human SOULs, and break the barrier. Once itwas broken, they would show their true power to the humans and takeback the world that rightfully belonged to monsters.

Inthe aftermath of a devastating tragedy, it gave monsters hope. Itkept them going.

WhenAsgore explains that it isn’t what he really wanted, he looks ahundred years older, like the weight of the universe is precariouslyon his shoulders. He says quietly, with his face in his paws, thatshortly after he made that announcement, he regretted it. He doesn’twant to hurt anyone, he never did, and yet, his promise gave everyoneelse a reason to keep going. Something said in the heat of anger andraw grief that he didn’t mean, but felt like he had to stick to. Ifhe took it back, nobody would trust him, monsters would once againfall into despair, they would all die before ever seeing the sunlightagain.

Whathe said cost him Toriel. Immediately after that, she left him.

Asgorespent the years that followed alone in what used to be a happy home.Day in and day out, he waited ―“like a coward,” he makes a point of saying. Over time, six humanSOULs were brought to him, along with bodies. The SOULs he kept injars, ready to be used once he got seven of them, and the bodies heput in coffins, though there was nowhere to bury them. It was theonly thing he could do in an attempt to show respect to those deadhumans.

Noneof the humans who fell down died by Asgore’s hand, but by befallingother monsters and dangers in the Underground. Even so, he stillfeels guilt about every one of them, as well as the way his peoplesuffered. When a child known as Frisk made it to Asgore’s home,willing to fight for their chance to go home, it was the first timehe had to face one of the fallen humans in battle.

Hisshoulders shake with heavy sobs as he talks about not wanting tofight them at all. He didn’t want it, he never wanted it, and itwasn’t long into the fight that Frisk wore him down. Asgore gaveup, telling Frisk that they should take his SOUL and go home.

Friskrefused.

Hesays everything else after thatwas a blur. He says he remembers many people, Toriel included,showing up to stop themfrom fighting.He says he remembers everything going white, and Frisk being asleep,then suddenly the barrier was broken.

Afew more things are said, mumbles of self-hate and messy feelingsthat he probablyisn’tquite ready to talk about. Theway he moves to be farther from (Name) and the way he shrinks, tryingto make himself look smaller, make it clear that he expects them tojust leave him after knowing all this. Whowouldn’t? Who would stay with someone like him? He’s a monster inevery sense of the word.

Aftera long moment, (Name) scoots closer to make up the distance. Theirarms slowly reach up, snaking around Asgore’s neck, pulling himdown, down, down, as close against him as they can possibly get him.He tenses up beneath their touch. They curl their hand into a sort ofhalf-fist, stroking their fingertips and knuckles over the fur on theback of his neck.

They’reboth silent except for the soft gasps and sobs he makes as he triesto catch his breath. Thereare tears running down their face now too, their heart aching forhim. Wordlessly questioning how he’s still standing, how he stillmakes it through the day, how he practically fooled them intothinking he’s happy, after all this hellhe’s been through.

Atlast, they kiss the side of his ear, murmuring right against hisskin, “Thank you for telling me all of this, sweetheart. Thank you.I’m glad I know.”

Notonly are they truly relieved that he’s told them the truth, that hedoesn’t have to pretend around them anymore, this is all usefulinformation. Now that they know so much more about him and what hispast looks like, they know better how to take care of him. How betterto give him all the love he deserves so that he has the best chanceof recovering from everything and trulybeing happy.

Evenif he may never be rid of all that haunts him, they want that. Forhim to be happy and healthy. In any and every way he possibly can.

“Ilove you, Asgore.” It’s just loud enough for him to hear, as theylet their fingers tangle in his hair, continuing to caress him. “Ilove you.”

Andthat’s it. The realization that they still love him, that they’rehere, that they’re staying, that they aren’t going to leave, istoo much.

Thelast pin holding the king of monsters together snaps, and he allowshimself to break down in his lover’s arms.

[cruximpetus]

On Chara, Asgore, and Goat Family Dynamics:      This is going to be a long post, so head under the read more for the headcanon.

     First off, we have to start way before Chara even arrived - to the war between monsters and humans.  We know from the signs in Waterfall that the humans started the war because monsters could absorb human souls (which begs the question how did they find out?  If a monster can only absorb a human soul after the human has died (because human souls persist after death), then they would have needed to be around when that happened - whether as a cause of death or because they were simply friends enough with the human for it to happen.  I’d prefer it was the latter, but I think it was more likely to be the former - not necessarily an intentional cause of death, but certainly that the human and the monster weren’t on friendly terms, thus leading the human populace to have more reason to panic than to see it as a way to live longer after death -- but that’s another thing entirely.  To be honest, I think if it’d been friendly circumstances, the monster-human fusion likely wouldn’t have said anything if they didn’t have to do so-- but, then, this assumes that not all such fusions cause a physical appearance change as the Chara-Asriel fusion did, which I think is based more on the souls of the two involved and their age.  Asgore, for instance, absorbing one human soul would likely not have that vast amount of change.  But that is beside the point and I’m getting carried away), despite the fact that humans were, as a result of their souls naturally stronger than monsters.  We do not know how long the war went on, and we don’t know who was in charge during the war.  Signs point to Asgore (due to his crappy naming scheme) or an ancestor of his (because crappy naming can be passed down in genetics, I have no doubt).  Either way, Asgore or a direct ancestor led the monsters during the war.  For ease of discussion (and because canon more clearly points to it), let’s say Asgore led the monsters during the war between monsters and humans.      Now, why does this matter?  What does this have to do with later dynamics?      Humans started the war.  Asgore led the monsters during the fight - which means they fought back.  Humans are naturally stronger - which means they could easily have killed the monsters, his people.  Asgore continued to pursue peace (even within the context of war), because that is more his personality, but humans refused peaceful terms - which meant more fighting and more monsters dying because humans were afraid, humans were fighting, and humans weren’t allowing for any sort of reconciliation.  We have seen how Asgore reacted to his son’s death and the pressure of his people; it is likely that under this pressure he cowed and ordered the monsters to fight.  And every time a human died, their soul was absorbed, which made the humans more afraid because look at how much damage that monster can do - but we also know from the canon lore that when monsters don’t want to fight, their whole physicality reacts to it.  A human soul can fight the monster who absorbed it (as noted with Chara but even more noticeable in how the six human souls dealt with Flowey), can make them weaker, so even such a powerful fusion, in that circumstance, would likely have fallen to the humans.      And when they won (after the loss on the monster’s side was too great to continue), humans sealed the monsters into the Underground, where they would have no hope of getting out ever again.      No leader - even a monster leader as completely capable of love and compassion (since that is, after all, what monster souls are made of) as Asgore is - would, after that, be able to look on a human and feel anything but conflicting emotions for them.  Perhaps before the war, it would have been nothing but love, but after?  After humans decimated his people?  After they were forced to fight?  After the humans locked them away?  Maybe that part of him was still there, but there had to have also been some sense of despair, some sense of anger, frustration - hatred is a strong word when we’re talking about Asgore, but in this context, it makes sense.  Certainly his first reaction would have been a negative one instead of a positive one.      This leads us to Chara.  We know from canon that they are the first fallen human - the first human to fall into the Underground after that great war.  Asgore’s initial feelings towards them could not have been good.  We know that Asriel found them first, and I tentatively headcanon that Asriel was born in the Underground, sometime after the war - which would mean that he hadn’t seen a human before.  He had probably grown up with the stories, but he didn’t have that same lingering...hesitancy, anger, negative feelings that Asgore would have (likely because he is Toriel’s son  as well, and her first instinct with human children is to mother them the way she would any abandoned child.  Her reaction to a human adult falling is debatable, but to her, a child is a child is a child, and she will mom the heck out of them and protect them).  It is even possible that Asriel didn’t know that Chara was a human until Asgore said something about it, may have just thought they were another sort of monster they hadn’t met before (less likely, but possible).  Either way, Asriel struck up a friendship with Chara before Asgore met them.  Given all of the above, Asgore’s reaction was not necessarily a good one - likely wasn’t - but even if he tried to fight that off to be a good adoptive parent he does not want to adopt a human child Toriel and he does not like that their child is associating with a human but Asgore is a pushover and fine, fine, let the human live with us, they don’t seem so bad for a human, I suppose we will get along just fine and I will do my best - Chara grew up in an abusive household (my headcanon, not necessarily canon) and would know that something was off.  They don’t necessarily know what love looks like from a parental figure, not until they learn it from Toriel, but they know what disgust and anger and a lot of negative emotions looks like.  And maybe he doesn’t hate them entirely, but those negative feelings towards humans in general are there, and Chara can feel that and feels that directed towards them.  So, from Chara, at least, there’s that instinctive wariness of Asgore - not because he dislikes them specifically, necessarily, but because he is wary of them, as a human, and even if that slowly fades away, there’s still a part of Chara that is scared of Asgore and identifies him as a threat.  From an abusive household standpoint.      And that’s the problem with Chara/Asgore - they don’t dislike each other specifically but they see in each other a lot of negative associations they have with other people in their past.  And no matter how hard Chara might try to get Asgore to like them, they do it because they’re afraid that he hates them (even if he doesn’t hate them), and no matter how much Asgore might like Chara, it’s still a hurdle because humans are bad.  (Toriel would say not all humans, but Asgore doesn’t necessarily believe that is the case.  He saw the war.  He led during the war.  He watched what humans did.  Toriel might forgive readily unless it’s personal, but from what we’ve seen Asgore does not - not when it comes to leading his people.  His people come first, regardless of what he personally might feel.  A human is a threat.  Regardless.)      I think this is why Asgore constantly mentions that Chara is the future of monsters and humans.  From what he has seen, Chara does not seem to be as monstrous horrible as other humans did.  He sees the way they interact with Asriel (besties ftw!) and they see the way Toriel dotes on them and how that makes them shine, and Asgore likes to push hope, so he’s saying - look, here’s hope.  Here’s hope that maybe humans and monsters can get along.  But for Chara, that’s an additional pressure, that’s something they have to live up to, and since they already suffer from suicidal ideation (and at least one previous attempt) and likely have a history of being abused when they don’t live up to a parent’s expectations, that instinctive fear is still there.  They feel they have to live up to that.  They feel they have to earn his love (and rightly so, although they don’t know they probably already earned it).  Further - it’s likely that Asgore has to use that phrase to get his people who have just come out of a war with the humans and many of them still remember it to accept that their king and queen have just adopted a human child.      Bitter is the word I’m looking for.      Inevitably, this comes to a head with the accidental buttercup butterscotch pie.  This looks like a murder attempt and Chara laughs.  It’s a nervous laugh, it’s an I tried to do something nice because I feel like you don’t really love me and I want your approval so much and I fucked it up and now you’re going to hate me more than you already do and for once in my life it felt like I had something good and I just fucked it up, and it’s possible that Toriel understands it was an honest mistake, and Asgore likely understands it’s an honest mistake (even if he has his doubts because, hey, human), but that doesn’t mean that Chara isn’t still beating themselves up over it.  (I also think it’s likely that they told the monster populace that Asgore was just sick because that would not have looked good on Chara.)      And that’s when Chara comes up with their plan.      If they die, they can live up to what Asgore has constantly told them they are meant to do (be the future of humans and monsters).  Asriel can absorb their soul (hopefully) and go take out a few humans (they can give him descriptions of their parents, their family, who are horrible, Asriel, their deaths aren’t so bad) so that monsters can go free.  Because monsters have treated them better than humans ever did.  And, yeah, they die in the process, but that’s okay, isn’t it?  They’ll have done something nice for their family and made up for almost accidentally killing Asgore.  And they wanted to die anyway, so that works out for them.  At least they had something good for a little while first.      (And then they don’t die when Asriel absorbs them and then Asriel refuses to kill anyone and then they actually die because Asriel refused to do anything and now Asriel is dead, too and then, fuck this, everyone deserves to die because if my best friend can’t do this, if he chooses the people he knows hurt me over himself, his family, over me, then fuck it all.  And then they’re soulless, which really makes everything that much worse.  Bitterness, my dear friends, is the word.)

[p-alex]

it’s another one of those times where i read about certain people not cutting toriel some slack so i started thinking about why i like him more than her (and, on a broader level, what might cause that reaction in general), and the conclusion i’ve drawn goes like this:

toriel as a character is written in such a fashion that she’s frustrating if you don’t buy wholesale into her gimmick.

think about it like this: can you think of any moment during the game where toriel’s principles are questioned to any degree? the only instances of anyone even voicing something like discontent towards her that i can recall is her being rejected when she tries to propose peaceful human-monster relations after asgore dies and undyne going “oh my god!” during the “into the trash” bit in the postgame.

“wouldn’t that be enough?”, i hear you ask? no, not really, because the latter is an off-hand remark that she doesn’t even react to and the former... well, that’s gonna take a bit longer to explain.

see, the discussions about toriel’s decision to go into the ruins are really grating because 99 percent of the time, all parties involved, regardless who they side with, seem to think it’s the outcome of a binary choice. either toriel chooses to stick around in new home and talk asgore out of his rage or she goes to the ruins to stop the humans from getting killed.

i want to propose a third choice called “go to the ruins, wait for the heat to cool off and slowly work on convincing monsters that the war against humans is a Bad Idea”

“wouldn’t that take way too long?”, i hear you ask again, which i ask back: “how much time do you think toriel has at her disposal?” people seem to underestimate just how much time must’ve passed between them getting sealed in the mountain and being freed at the end of it. a total of eight humans fell down, seven of which during the timeframe that matters the most, and given that asriel got shot with arrows when he left through the barrier and society depicted in the end credits seems to mirror our own, it should be easy to assume that this whole thing took at least a few hundred years. the only ones implied to have lived throughout that entire timeframe are three in number, two of them don’t age and the last one’s a turtle, which are known to have long lifespans, so his lifespan’s probably absurd as well.

point being, time is hardly an issue. and there’s even more! as the mother of the child whose death caused this escalation in the first place, wouldn’t she have one hell of a trump card in arguments? wouldn’t anybody want to at least listen to a woman that, despite right in the middle of this disaster, is unwilling to let blood be paid with blood because no matter how heinous her son’s death was, the pain and anguish she felt was so great that she wouldn’t want anyone else to live with that burden?

then how come it feels like she never really tried to resolve this? the frustration comes in when you consider that toriel is refered to as the brain to asgore’s heart, yet all the smarts she could muster amounted to “locking up any human that falls into the mountain, only for them to slip through regardless despite her warnings”? it wouldn’t make sense for her to tell you less than the previous humans unless she somehow banks on reverse psychology by hoping that knowing less about how dangerous the underground beyond the ruins is would make you want to stay in the ruins more? and even within the ruins, she seems to have failed to communicate her point, since she just glares at that one froggit at the start to shoo him off and a later dialogue scene reveals that they’re terrified of her.

and to bring this back around to what she does in those neutral endings... why would she ever think anyone would listen to her then? i can buy that trying to bring up peaceful relations right after asriel‘s death is a dumb idea, and that she couldn’t handle the strain. but then asgore dies, right after a human shows up, and it’s then when she decides that they want to talk? did she not notice how much asgore was adored by his people? was all the time she spent talking with sans wasted on nothing but knock-knock jokes and asking him to keep an eye on you throughout your journey (while somehow missing that he’s so fickle that he outright admits to you that he would’ve killed you if she hadn’t)? she had a frighteningly large window of opportunity to do anything useful, but only decides to take action after it had passed?

which gets me all the way around to toriel being frustrating to think about. i don’t have any issue with believing that she wants the best for everyone and is, ultimately, a good person, but the way she seems to actively sabotage herself in the pursuit of her goals makes me wonder how anyone can consider her “smart” seeing how she rivals asgore in how boneheaded her decisions are in the long term. by comparison, asgore has tried to find a way past the barrier that wouldn’t require sacrificing humans (which failed spectacularly, but was, in fact, attempted) and was willing to die for a kid he’d known for five minutes just so someone could leave that place and do something about the issue at hand. but those shouldn’t be points that i’m giving to the guy predisposed to be your final roadblock. i should be looking at toriel and think to myself that she did what she could to ease the tension, but failed in face of all the pressure instead of as the anti-guts to asgore’s anti-griffith.

look, i don’t want to have issues with toriel’s character just for the sake of it. i’m not even going to pretend that i don’t have at least some bias for asgore despite how much of a fuckup he is. who knows, maybe i have missed something that would make me respect her more, and i really want to believe that i do. but despite having kept my eye on the fandom for so long now, i never felt like those issues i had were adressed to a satisfying degree. maybe the occasional piece of fanart that was willing to portray toriel’s approach as flawed at the very least, but those are few and far between.

either way, i figure i should just put this out there and hope for some interesting responses since this post is clearly way too long already and i still feel like i’m missing at least half my argument here.

[wingdingsareathing]

Kingdomtale: Characters

Premise: The war is still going on so all our favorite characters contribute to the war effort. Because of the war characters can appear more cynical (Sans) and/or pessimistic (Sans). Everyone is more frightened of humans and because there are more soldiers/Royal Guardsmen they are more likely to capture/kill a human then respond to Act/Spare/Mercy.

The world is still in a medieval type setting so modern conveniences are non-existent.

Asriel/Flowey: He was once the heir to the Monster Kingdom who made friends with a human child. They grew up together and became siblings. When the human died, Asriel decided to take the child to their village so they could be with the golden flowers one last time. He absorbed the human soul, thinking it would give him the strength to go through the human lands. When the humans attacked him, thinking he had killed the child, Asriel did not retaliate. Though he took extensive amount of damage his soul was determined to persist until he made it back home to his mother and father. He turned to dust soon after arriving home. The negative emotions he harbored towards his loss and the humans manifested itself in the form of Flowey, a malevolent spirit hell bent on making humans suffer. Flowey has a far-reaching network of roots so he can watch the whole of the monster territory. He whispers things to the King in case Asgore starts losing his resolve. He convinces him that using the souls of the Heirs will give him enough power to destroy the humans and fully control the lands.

Chara/First Child: They were a peasant child that was cast out of their village. Made to be a sacrifice to the Monsters, they are left in their territory. Chara was, of course, terrified and while they were running, tripped over a cliff. They were found by Prince Asriel who was not a vile scary thing but was very sweet. They are taken in by the King and Queen who are appalled by the stories Humans have said about them. Though some Monsters have similar stories.

After years of living with them, Chara begins to have hate towards Humans and upon their death becomes a corrupt vengeful spirit.

Asgore: As the King of the Monsters, Asgore is responsible for all his subjects and is the high commander of the Royal Guard/Soldiers. He was ready to make peace until his son, Asriel, was killed by humans. He found it ironic as the first heirs from the human kingdoms came to garner peace. He found it befitting to kill said heir, just as his was killed. He felt no better for it...until a little flower assured him that the humans deserved it and that with the heirs’ souls he can put an end to the human scourge.

Toriel/River person: The benevolent Queen of the Monsters, Toriel was against the war in the beginning. Her motherly instinct/nature wanted to nurture all those around her. She was more likely to speak at a peace rally than a war rally, though she was seen by the King’s side at these. She could not take the killing of the heir children. So she cursed the King and fled to the ruins of their settlements that were destroyed in the war. She still wanted to help her people but knew they would see her as a traitor to their people. So, she cloaks herself and masquerades as a forest/river guide often speaking in riddles so no one may discern who she is or call her new facade a traitor as well.

Frisk: The heir to the Seventh Human Kingdom. Their Kingdom’s people have arguably the strongest souls that are willed by Determination. They decided on their own to go seek an audience with the Monster King, their family didn’t want them to fall to the same fate as the other heirs. They do not speak much, often believing actions speak louder than words.

Alphys/Royal Mage: She is charged with finding new magical innovations to forward the war effort. She got the position when her predecessor disappeared. Because tensions are high around the Kingdom, she has resorted to less than morally sound judgment in her experiments.

Undyne: The ever enthusiastic Captain of the Royal Guards in Waterfall. She wants to follow in the footsteps of her father and grandfather. She trained with her father and the General of Waterfall. She has a playful rivalry with Papyrus, there definitely wasn't a contest on who would get to Captain first.

Papyrus: Possibly even more enthusiastic than Undyne. He is the Captain of the Royal Guards in Snowdin. He has worked hard since he became of age to get to his position now, guidance from his brother, the General of Snowdin, and...someone else… He finds it hard however to control his subordinates when they're trying to get his bones.

Sans: A skeleton of many jobs. On the surface Sans seems to just be an apathetic lazy bones soldier. On the battlefield he is a good fighter but doesn't show his whole hand. To the Generals he is a scout that keeps them updated on enemy movements, though he does report to the Snowdin General first. The King knows Sans as the Keeper of the Judgement Hall, the last line of defense if anyone tries to enter the castle. He was promoted to the position because Asgore said he reminded him of his predecessor...

[asktemmie-frisk]

Nightmare of the Boss Monster (Lost and Found Arc)

Later that night, Toriel finally finished crying as much as she did. She was fully aware of what she did now, and she didn't take it well at all. She picked herself up, and went straight to her room, isolated, unwanted, alone.

"I suppose this is what I deserve. I had a good life and family, and I gave all of that up for one moment of hostility." She told herself as she crawled into the bed.

She lost herself in the darkness of her slumbering mindscape, forgetting she fell asleep. It was quiet throughout the house, thanks to her outbursts, and nothing was around to give her any company, not even a hostile entity, for perhaps everything around her knew she didn't deserve company anymore. Once she was asleep, she seemingly found herself in a void, with distant stars adorning the vast emptiness.

"Oh, goodness. I must be dreaming right now." She said in surprise.

She wandered aimlessly until she reached a door seemingly popping up out of nowhere.

"My. Well, this is odd. A door just standing perfectly upright? Well, there is nothing else to do but go in, I suppose."

Toriel opened the door, and stepped into the infinite darkness.

When she finished walking, it gradually got brighter as she continued onward. Eventually, she stumbled back into her house. She saw Frisk and Chara on the couch in the living room.

"What? How? I thought-"

Toriel got interrupted as she got struck on the back of her head. She stumbled slightly and balanced herself on the doorjamb, dazed and confused, and she looked for her attacker, only to notice it was her, but when she looked younger.

"No. It cannot be."

"It is." Said the past Toriel.

"Take a seat, old bitch."

Toriel followed her younger self's orders and sat down on the couch. Frisk and Chara saw her.

"What the fuck are you doing here, Ms. Toriel?" Frisk said, scowling at Toriel with red eyes.

"That would be me." Said Toriel's younger self, who walked into the room.

Toriel of the present trembled in shock.

"Why did you bring me here?" Asked the current incarnation.

"Easy. It's time I talked to you. Why do you insist on fucking your own life up?"

"What? I would never-"

"OH, CUT THAT BULLSHIT OUT ALREADY! We all know how horrible you really are! Asriel and Flowey are right. You're a walking joke."

"No, I'm not!"

"Oh, is that so? Then why did you kick-"

Toriel punched her past self in the face, who retaliated by sending her out the window. She landed inside a strange room, and the younger Toriel went to her present-day self. Both Toriels went all out on each other, but the present-day Toriel was beaten out.

"Look at you. Trying to use powers in a dream? A great ability for the non-magical. But we are magical, aren't we Tori? Magical because we are monsters."

Toriel's past self violently yanked her current self upwards by her neck and turned her to Frisk.

"AND YOU BETRAYED THEM. BETRAYED ALL OF THEM. MONSTERS, HUMANS, EVERYONE! JUST BECAUSE OF SOME GODDAMN VENDETTA! You're just a petty little bimbo."

"Petty? If I'm petty, then what does that make you?"

Toriel rasped, running out of air.

The past Toriel violently threw her onto the ground as she answered the question.

"It makes me truthful AND ashamed to be you!"

Toriel became enraged and wildly punched her past self multiple times, only to get smacked to the ground by her.

"You're fighting like you used to: nothing held back. I gotta admit, your energy is admirable, but your execution is mistaken at best."

Present-day Toriel struggled to get up, but she fell to the ground as she got stomped on her back by her past.

"What are you going to do to me?" The current Toriel asked, grunting painfully.

"First, I'm gonna show you why you need to heed your son's word. Then...I'M GONNA BREAK YOU."

Past Toriel manifested a door, and grabbed Toriel. She walked through it, and they saw a wall of memories, all of them comprised of everyone Toriel cared about, even Asgore. They were all good memories of the past. Toriel couldn't take it anymore and tried to free herself. She tore herself away from her past, and tried to run, only to get stopped abruptly by her.

"Yeah. Fucking knew it. I wondered which would break first: your pride, or your body? Looks like I got my answer. Your body will break before your will shall bend."

Past Toriel rammed a knee into her chest, and the current Toriel seemingly passed out.

About what felt like only a few minutes later, Toriel "woke" back up to find herself in a classroom. Frisk, Chara, Asriel and even Asgore walked inside about ten seconds after Toriel got reoriented.

"What? Guys, what is going on?!" Toriel asked, trying to grasp at her "reality".

None of them answered. They all just sat down next to Toriel, keeping their eyes out of her gaze. Then, past Toriel entered the room in an outfir similar to Toriel's outfit that she wears when she's teaching.

"Good morning, class!" She said, deceptively placated.

"Today, we have a new student. Her name is Toriel. Say hi to everyone, Toriel."

The real Toriel was speechless.

"Aw, what's the matter? Feeling a little shy? In that case, why doesn't everyone else give a little talk to her instead? I'll even let you guys introduce yourselves. Not that you'll need to, especially since you all know each other."

Toriel's past self laughed at her as she walked out of the room. The present Toriel tried to get out of her seat, but she was found to be stuck to it. Truly a fitting comeuppance on account of her situation in the waking world, for she had nowhere to run or hide, and she could no longer defend herself.

"Now then, with you being forced to listen to us now, it should be as easy as anything to speak to you." Frisk said, breaking the illusion.

"Wait. What? You know what I did?" Toriel asked, feeling scared.

"Uh, yeah! We all know what you did!"

"How did you know to show up here?!"

"Chara could feel your despair flowing out of your house. She was worried you would turn to dust, so she had to beg us all to help you. And being that Chara really does care about you, NO MATTER HOW LITTLE YOU DESERVE IT, we couldn't just stay mad at you, so we...came to help you get better."

Toriel was touched by what Frisk said. Chara's still willing to love me enough to get me the help I need, she questioned to herself. She's the best daughter I've ever had, and the worst part is I don't even deserve her.

"Chara? Sweetie?"

Chara turned to her with tears in her eyes. Toriel followed suit.

"You would come to save me from myself, Chara? Even after I have hurt you so?"

Chara simply smiled and nodded as the tears flowed.

Toriel couldn't help but hug her.

"Oh, thank you, my child! Thank you so very much! I'm so sorry, sweetie! I should've never kicked you out of the house! That's a mistake I won't ever make again! Mommy loves you so much!"

"I love you too, mom." Chara said, returning her hug.

"Thank you, mom."

"I'm so proud of you. So willing to help me, even if I don't even deserve it."

"Yeah. But still, we gotta get outta here."

"No need to worry about that." Past Toriel said, reentering the room.

"We're going on a little 'field trip', everybody."

The room immediately phased out of the classroom and into a bar. Toriel was scared.

"Why are you doing this? What do you want from me?" Asked a fearful Toriel.

"You need to learn something important. Why do you think everything went to shit?" Inquired the past Toriel.

"Isn't it obvious? Asgore declared war against humans, and he killed six children similar to Frisk and Chara."

"Ah, but would he have had to kill them?"

"What do you mean?"

"If you had just kept them in the ruins and told them the full truth, maybe you would've saved their lives. And even if not that, you could've at least given them a better way to protect themselves. Look at you. Six children come to you before Frisk, and all of them have to die before you finally decide to intervene? Pathetic. And to make things worse, why did you even separate from him in the first place?"

"Because I was disgusted with-"

"You were fucking scared, that's what you were. You never saw Asgore raise his voice even once, and when he finally shows some goddamn backbone, you run away like a little bitch because you couldn't handle what you saw! You saw a man that was broken down and weary from what the humans did to him, and when he needed you most of all, you abandoned him. Abandoned him, betrayed him, left him to DIE within the cataclysms of his own despair. He considered suicide at some point, you know. He even begged Frisk to kill his ass."

Toriel from the present started crying at the realization of how great the consequences of her actions truly were. She didn't want this. She didn't want to actually be responsible for someone's death.

"The hopes and dreams of the ENTIRE KINGDOM were almost completely dashed away the second Chara and Asriel died. And you know what the worst part about Asgore's decree was? You're the one to blame as to why it was still in effect for so long because it's your fault for leaving."

Suddenly, rain started falling hard and fast. Toriel and everyone else was confused.

"What's happening? How are you doing this?" Toriel asked tearfully.

"You see these raindrops, me? These are all the tears your family has shed for you in your life."

The rain continued for another eight seconds before gradually slowing down and finally dissipating. Then tissues started falling in place of the rain.

"And these...these are the tissues they used to dry those tears."

The tissues stopped falling about four seconds later.

"And these represent all the times you showed how much you truly loved Asgore and anyone else."

Toriel expected something else to occur, but nothing happened.

"Of which, THERE ARE NONE. You don't do that type of thing, I suppose. And why not, though?"

"They knew how much I truly cared. I did not think-"

"BULLSHIT! I CALL TOTAL BULLSHIT! Now let's hear the real reason, Tori. Unless you're too scared."

Toriel cowered in fear of her past self. Asgore and Chara looked at Toriel in suspense. Frisk and Asriel shook their heads and frowned in disappointment. Toriel felt ashamed of herself. She didn't want anyone to know, but she no longer had a choice, just like Chara and Frisk.

"Because I'm a horrible person." Toriel said with a empty, sullen expression.

"Why are you so horrible?"

"Because I don't know how to love someone. Because I never knew how it felt to have such strong feelings for anyone. Because I was a total bitch before I met Asgore. Because I didn't care how people percieved me back then. And all of that is because I'm just a scared little girl trying to act tough because I don't know any better. That's the true reason why."

Toriel fell to her knees. She finally spilled her guts. She admitted her true self. She was just scared, and she acted tough because she didn't want to show weakness.

"I only acted like that because I don't know how else to act. But when I had Asriel, I had a small wake up call. I couldn't just be my bitchy self to a child that I was having, or it would become me. Not that my efforts to avoid that amounted to anything, especially since my son practically IS me! I realized I had to change, even if only a little."

"If you had to change so badly, why didn't you get help to try and be a better person? Why didn't you just ask for help?"

"Because I'm too scared to ask for help in the first place. Because I don't even know if I'll get the help or not. Because I think even if I do get help, it would be unlikely that it would do much."

Toriel held herself and cried, curling up on the ground. Frisk and Asriel breathed a sigh of relief.

"Finally. She speaks the truth. The ugly truth." Frisk said, finally hearing what he wanted to hear.

"Ugly, and painful, but worth embracing if you can handle it." Asriel agreed.

"Now mom, was that really so hard? Did you really have to go that far to hide it? Was being brutally honest with us really that bad?"

"No. I suppose not." Toriel ebbed to Asriel.

"Right. Let's get outta here, guys."

"WAIT, NO, DON'T-"

Everyone but Toriel and her past self left the place before she could stop them. Then, past Toriel resumed the fight from earlier by kicking her current self into a wall. As she stumbled to get up and face her, she had small epiphany.

"Wait. This is my dream. I can do whatever I want." She realized, making the entire place pitch black while keeping her past self visible.

"Oh, I get it." Past Toriel said with a smile on her face.

"You think changing a few things around can scare me? You're merely adopting fear tactics. I was born from them. Molded by them. I didn't see a merciful way out until I was already a grown woman. By then, it was nothing to me but USELESS!"

Past Toriel grabbed her current self and threw her to the ground.

"The shadows of your past betray you because they belong to me."

The past started punching Toriel repeatedly at full force without relenting or even slowing down. She didn't hold back, either.

"Your power and strength betrays you because it belongs to me. YOUR AGGRESSIVE BEHAVIOR ESPECIALLY BETRAYS YOU BECAUSE IT BELONGS ONLY TO ME!"

After past Toriel finally finished beating her current self up, she crazily, and slowly, morphed into Photoshop Flowey. The transformation was as grotesque as it was extreme. Toriel froze up in fear. When she finished transforming, past Toriel guffawed a distorted, mocking laughter at her pathetic counterpart.

"Look at you! You've gone soft, Tori. Softer than Asgore when he first married you! Did you really think you could defeat me? This may be your mind, but I AM THE GOD OF YOUR MINDSCAPE! AND YOU?! YOU'RE HOPELESS. HOPELESS AND ALONE. AH, THAT'S RIGHT! YOUR PRECIOUS LITTLE PUNCHING BAG 'GOREY' CAN'T SAVE YOU NOW, AND NEITHER CAN ANYONE ELSE. GO AHEAD. CALL FOR HELP. BEG FOR HELP. CRY FOR HELP. I DARE YOU. SCREAM INTO THE DARKNESS! MOMMY! DADDY! SOMEBODY HELP! BEG FOR MERCY TOO, AND SEE WHAT GOOD IT DOES YOU!"

Toriel was trembling, unable to do anything. No. No, please. I didn't want this. I didn't want to actually kill somebody, especially not Asgore. I don't want to die. I don't want to see anyone die. Please. Please just let me go. That's what flooded Toriel's mind without cessation.

"No. Please. Someone help me. Make them stop." Toriel whimpered in a manner most pathetic.

The Photoshop form of past Toriel listened for anyone to respond. Nothing happened...

"Well, how about that. You called for help...but nobody came. EXCEPT FOR ME! My, my. What a shame. Nobody else...IS GONNA GET TO SEE YOU DIE!"

Toriel screamed as her transformed counterpart prepared a large, powerful beam while madly cackling at her impending doom. All she wanted was to wake up at that moment, and all she could do was look away until enough light poured out of the beam and onto her that she woke up.

When she did, Toriel immediately sat up, gasping for air as she tried to recover from the horrible nightmare she had. She had an otherwise horrified silence, trying to process the reality that she came back to. She couldn't stop trembling even for a second. That dream was surely a literal wake up call, and she didn't take it lightly.

[eleonorvoncarter]

I wonder if Flowey wanted to kill Asgore because of that. I don’t wanna get too psychological, but perhaps, he sees Asgore as a reflection of the bad things he did, while on opposition, Toriel represents the good of him. Since the two parents have taken completely different moral directions, just like the dichotomy of Flowey’s routes: Sometimes he killed people, sometimes he befriended them.

But yeah, I think even though he can’t feel empathy, he does still feel something for them. You can tell he still does feel something, even because on the geno run he is surprised by his own fear. Feelings don’t only come from the SOUL, but memory also has a role in it, and he still DOES have fragments of his old SOUL inside him. He probably doesn’t know how to “unlock” those feelings. 

I think there are reasons why they don’t talk about Chara. Toriel rarely talks about her son even (only on the winter dialogues) and Asgore does talk about them, but only in the secret suicide ending, and that’s because he has declared war against humans and so it makes sense that he can’t really talk about them. 

Also, I think it was harder to get through Asriel’s death, and they have NEVER accepted it. In the winter dialogues, Flowey says that when Toriel was drunk, she told him something like “Asriel, I’ll never let you go again” In my opinion, she tried to stop Asriel from going to the surface, just like she tries to prevent us from leaving the ruins, but she couldn’t, and she still feels guilty about it. It’s an unhealed trauma.

And even though Chara’s death was extremely tragic for them (The only thing Toriel brought with her is Chara’s body, afterall.) It was somehow “easier” to accept because they were not murdered, there was no way to prevent it. Asriel’s murder left an unhealed scar. And you must consider that it’s been many, many years since their death. Asgore has reasons to still show his grieving because he is killing humans in his son’s name. (Not to mention that I think he unconsciously believe his son CAN somehow return, because on Flowey’s first run, he came to him as Asriel, and I think a very small portion of that memory remained in him, giving him hope that his son could come back thanks to some miracle) But Toriel is trying to forget and move on.

But for Flowey, things are different. He woke up and he feels like all of that happened yesterday. He realizes he doesn’t feel love, and I think that at that point, he started wishing for Chara to return even more. He was probably seeing them as his only “hope” of feeling something for someone again. He thinks if they come back, they will probably be soulless like him since they both lost their soul when they died, and so, he will finally find someone who understands him. Perhaps, that would allow him to feel something again. 

Thus, he starts to talk about his parents as “pathetic” because they are in pain and he can’t understand their pain. And everything that is in pain and weak and merciful reminds him of his decision of sparing the humans, which led to his death. So on one hand, he doesn’t like his father’s violence. On the other, his mother’s compassion.

You don't think Flowey hates Asgore...Right?

Not really. I think he became very apathetic when he became flowey, and after so many resets and timelines I don't think he cared about Asgore - or anyone - too much.

But I do think even if being soulless takes away some your compassion, he still feels things. But yknow, trauma, he doesn't think he is the same person anymore and refuses to see himself like that. Maybe because he doesn't wanna think that him, ASRIEL, would do all these awful things he did. They are the same person so, he definitely did do those awful things.

Getting back to Asgore, I think Flowey in the present is currently hiding from him, like he's hiding for everybody else.

However just as he still loves Toriel, he must still love Asgore. He's just in a lot of denial right now.