#<- IF ANYONE STARTS TALKING ABOUT HOW IT IS OR IS NOT PROSHIP IN THE REPLIES I WILL TURN THEM OFF BTW 👍

[s-sextape]

hold on im genuinely curious about this now

btw im not judging anyone based on ppl’s answers i just keep seeing ppl mention stuff bc of. some goofy line in f&c. so yea

hate when people say this myself but likekehhrgdgdggfgcgcv reblog for bigger sample size

^ (this physically hurt to type /joking)

edit: TO BE CLEAR, i don’t think of selfcest as similar to incest in any way, this is just based on what i’ve seen people argue why or why not they don’t like the concept! (i.e., someone saying that they dislike it because it would be similar someone being with one’s twin).

[crimson-rain-smoked-flower]

I’m not trying to attack you, but do you know that proshipper means someone who supports and romanticizes pedophilia, incest, and abuse? Your reblog on that post seems to read that you think antis just hate on people for having ships they don’t like. But it’s completely different than that. Just looking on the proshipper side of Tumblr and the internet and you can see people happily shipping children and adults and making nsfw content of such things.

i appreciate that you're not being outright hostile, but i have to say, that on its own put you above basically every anti i've interacted with.

i understand where antis are coming from, i really do. there are a lot of things on the internet that make me deeply uncomfortable, including the minor/adult ships that you mention. i don't want to anything to do with those kinds of ships and i would be happiest if i never saw them again. which is why i'm proship.

nine times out of ten, if i see that kind of ship brought up on my dash, it's because i was following an anti without realizing it, and they brought it up unprompted and untagged, to talk about how bad it is that they exist. they are the ones putting that kind of content in front of my face and making it harder to avoid.

the thing about people who ship those ships is that they're generally very aware that not everyone wants to see that kind of content, and so they tag it. they make sideblogs to talk about it. they don't go out of their way to shove it in people's faces. that means i, and everyone else who doesn't like it, can avoid it.

what antis want is for it to not exist at all. they want the tags to be purged and blocked, and for anyone who uses those tags to have their accounts deleted. and sure, that might get rid of some of it, but do you know what would happen to the rest? it would stop being tagged. people who don't want to see it wouldn't have the tools to avoid it. this isn't just a hypothetical, that's what's happened any time a fan space has tried to do that.

that's not even getting into the rabbit hole of what should be banned and what shouldn't. obviously any content that depicts real children or real life abuse shouldn't exist and shouldn't be allowed to be posted, but basically any platform that people use already enforces those policies, and there's not much of a slippery slope to go down there. if it involves real living breathing people being abused, it's bad. end of discussion.

but the same can't be said for fiction. ask ten antis for a specific list of all the content that should be banned, and you'll get ten different answers. what about kink? what about roleplay? what about horror and murder and anything that involves fictional characters being graphically tortured? what about people using art to process terrible things that have happened to them? what about art that uses dark themes as a horror element? if you just want to ban anything questionable to anyone, that's the line of thinking that gets any mention of lgbt existence banned. and again, this isn't just a hypothetical, this has happened before, and that's generally where it leads.

i know, from personal experience, that antis do, in fact, send harassment to people just for shipping things they don't like. i've gotten accused of absolutely vile shit for shipping two fictional characters who were both consenting adults. i've seen ship wars turn into moral battlegrounds, over ships that an average person wouldn't bat an eye at.

the thing about "romanticization" is a whole other can of worms. the anti logic goes like this: if someone sees something (even if it's very obviously fictional) in a positive light enough times, they will start thinking it's okay in real life, and go on to hurt real people. the problem with that is that it's just. blatantly untrue.

if it were true every horror movie fan would be a serial killer, every person that studies dark media would be an unhinged psychopath, and everyone who is into ddlg would be a pedophile. but they're not. they just aren't. people have directed movies just as fucked up as the darkest shit on ao3, and are still capable of being normal human beings who know right from wrong in real life.

even if someone is that impressionable, scrubbing away the existence of every piece of questionable content isn't going to solve their problem, because they're still going to be vulnerable to con men, scams, and cultists. the only thing that would actually materially help someone like that is developing their own morals and critical thinking.

children are also more impressionable, and there's a lot of content that's not suitable for them, but that doesn't mean that content shouldn't exist. it just means that they should stick to spaces designed for them (which most social media sites, tumblr included, are not) or, if they're old enough to be responsible for their experience online, they, or a trusted adult in their lives, should block and filter out things that they aren't comfortable with.

which is what everyone on the internet should be doing. it's what i do, and it's made the internet a much more pleasant place to be. and it's why i sometimes worry for antis mental health, especially teenagers, because they're being told it's right and moral to seek out content that makes them uncomfortable and to engage with the people making it. and that's just. really bad. it's not good for the creators that they're harassing obviously, but it's also really bad for them! it's not healthy to seek out things that make you feel bad, and it's a terrible internet safety lesson to teach minors that it's okay for them to seek out and engage with people making adult content.

individual harassment and crusading is never going to succeed at removing dark content from the internet. it just isn't. at best you might get a small percentage of people who create that content to stop sharing it, at worst you're just going to make people stop tagging it, and either way, you're exposing yourself to things that make you feel bad, when you don't have to.

if you want to materially change the type of content you see, you can. the block button is your friend, use it liberally. same with content filtering and tag blocking.

[diazisms]

hi so I just looked up what proship means. and I just wanted to ask if you like/support incest or pedophilia ships?

i support uncensored media. does that mean i like all of it? no. do i believe it’s important it exists and continues to exist? yes.

you don't have to like/support "problematic" content to believe it shouldn't be censored. censorship affects all of us, but especially lgbt and poc creatives. it starts with the things that everyone agrees is bad — no one, not even the people who read underage, thinks harming kids is okay in any capacity.

but it never stops there. it doesn't stop at underage or incest or rape. once a corporation realizes it has your stamp of approval to censor shit, they'll keep going until it's a white cishet conservative's dream. nothing queer, nothing where poc struggles are a focal point and it's talking negatively about white people and white supremacy. no sex. no sex no matter how vanilla. that's a problem. everyone, especially people who fall into marginalized identities, should be really, really against that.

this purity culture that's started to run rampant in fandom, this need to sanitize everything, to make sure everything exists very neatly within the box of Morally Right is harmful. fiction is not inherently good or bad because it's not real.

reading about siblings having sex doesn't actually hurt anyone, neither does writing it.

this shame surrounding taboo sexual topics, though?

that hurts people. that hurts kids. purity culture is spreading in fandom but it didn't start here. people are so worried about being "morally good" about media that has no moral responsibility in the first place that they completely ignore the real life repercussions of telling children that talking about sex is wrong, that if you've ever had thoughts that don't align with the purity mindset that you're gross, that if something ever happens to you you shouldn't talk about it, that if something happens to you and, in your trauma, it becomes something you're into in a consensual, pro-kink context that you're dirty.

the vast majority of people i know and have seen both online and in person with rape or ageplay kinks are victims of sexual abuse.

fiction is a comfort and it's allowed to be no matter how weird someone else thinks it is.

no one's telling you you need to go on ao3 dot com right now and filter everything with "underage". no one's telling you to make nsfw fanart of siblings if you don't want to. the point of being pro-ship is that you're in favor of people doing what they want with fiction. i know it's got "pro" in the name, but the point of being pro-ship is to be anti censorship.

(and, yeah, i ship the brothers from supernatural.)

[19catsncounting]

I Got Really Into Anti/Proship Discourse And Read +30 Academic Studies - My Findings

(It’s a Yapfest but the whole post is a very long essay and study on morality and fiction and children’s safety and rape culture with a fuckton of freely accessible academic articles and resources on the subject, and I want to talk to other people about it. For a shorter abstract with all the articles and more easily ignored yapping, see my shiny new Carrd:)

It’s been a little shocking lately to have certain discussions with some parts of fandom. I spoke about shipping/harassment and how that contributes to the death of fandom on TikTok assuming that younger folks are just really, really intense about preventing sexual violence, but the more I saw the words “morally wrong” and “disgusting” and “addiction,” the more I thought about this guy-

That’s Jerry Falwell, and I fucking hate this dead guy. You see, Jerry Falwell was a preacher who hated porn, feminism, and homosexuality. And I'm seeing his rhetoric and reworked quotes a lot.

Jerry would say stuff like:

“Pornography hurts anyone who reads it - garbage in, garbage out.”

“Someone must not be afraid to say ‘moral perversion is wrong.’ If we do not act now, homosexuals will ‘own’ America!”

Jerry wanted people to believe that it’s possible to see so much sexual content that it warps your sexuality, because he was gay and wanted to think that was due to thinking about gay sex too much. Jerry did not have a lot of evidence to prove that homosexuality was harmful, so he relied heavily on how “morally distasteful” it seemed to be to suburban Americans.

I spent the majority of my teen years arguing against Jerry’s rhetoric for the right to live as a lesbian online, and I never thought I’d see morality rhetoric in people I’m otherwise very politically aligned with. And I definitely never thought fandom of all things, in all its beautiful subversive glory, would seriously start advocating for censorship, anti-porn, and to consume fanwork with moral purity.

So, I’d like to have a deeper discussion on it, both here on Tumblr and on TikTok, but that does mean checking a few things at the door:

Personal feelings decide your personal life. What you feel is valid for you, not anyone else.

In general, things that do not cause direct and undeniable harm should not be broadly prohibited just because they’re weird or distasteful to the majority of folks. Ex. Loitering does not cause harm and is a tool of systemic oppression.

The discussion of “fictional CSEM” is the most inflammatory fork of this and it is often used to derail these kinds of conversations. This is all I will say on it - the legal status of explicit visual depictions of minors is muddy. In the US, there is just one dude in Utah who pled guilty for possessing explicit lolicon he bought by mail order without also possessing CSEM with real children, and explicit writing about fictional minors has been settled as protected free speech. Dedicated organizations from the NCMEC to Chris Hansen have asked that fictional content is not reported as CSAM as it is not actionable and clogs up finite resources. 90% of NCMEC reports were not actionable last year. There are studies suggesting that virtual CSEM or other non-victim alternatives could reduce actual child harm, but there is need for further research.

We’re all in agreement that untagged NSFW is not cool, and kids deserve kid-only sections of the internet. People who are triggered by or dislike problematic content deserve to be able to not see it. 👍

 (I’ve seen the argument that blocking tags/people should not be required - sorry, PTSD still requires that you manage your triggers, up to and including swearing off platforms just as I have sworn off bars/soap brands/etc to avoid my triggers.)

I have found a lot of accessible and free articles and studies that I will link throughout so that we can discuss the fact-based reasoning, in an effort to have a civil conversation.

(Also because we are not flat earthers, we are Fandom, and if we’re going to be annoying little shitheels in an “Um Actually” contest, we’re going to have the sources to back it up.)

Minors and Explicit Material

I’m not supporting minors engaging with explicit material. I have such little interest in the subject that I’m not even going to bring in articles, but you can feel free to. I personally engaged with explicit material as a preteen of my own free will and did not find it to be harmful, and the majority of people throughout human history have been exposed to explicit material at an early age with varying degrees of harm. There are undeniable legal and harm-driven differences between a 12 year old girl looking at Hustler on her own, a 14 year old boy being sent nudes from a grown woman, and a 6 year old viewing PornHub. (And I think the guardians of that 6 year old should be charged with grooming just like the woman, tbh.)

Personal Disclaimer

I’m an adult survivor of CSA and incest. I’m a happily married adult. I don’t personally like lolicon/shotacon/kodocon. I don’t like kids. I don’t like teens. I’m personally not attracted to underage fictional characters. I have family, the idea of fucking any of them makes me want to throw up and die, so I don’t write or read RPF of my family.

I am really, really fucking intense about preventing sexual violence, supporting survivors, and fandom, which is where this all comes from.

I read and love problematic fiction - my favorites are ASOIAF, Lolita, and VC Andrews. The most “problematic” thing I’ve personally written are Lucifer/Michael fics from Supernatural back in 2012. They are “brothers” in CW Christ, not blood. They do not have any blood.

Gen Z and Online Grooming

In 2002, a survey of 1500 minors from 10-17 found that 4% had been solicited for sexual purposes by an adult online.

In 2023, that number increased to 20%.

While the linked 2023 Thorn report suggests that the vast majority of these inappropriate interactions happened on platforms that allow for interpersonal communication, which by and large minors were greatly discouraged from and had less access to in the early 2000’s, a trauma-informed approach does not allow for blame to fall on the children. The guardians of those children have monumentally failed to restrict and educate before giving children the means to access those platforms.

It is my uncited but personal opinion that the increased rate of grooming, as well as an increased interest in combating rape culture, has led to well-intentioned individuals to become digital vigilantes attacking those who they hold responsible for their traumatic experiences in a search for catharsis and justice denied for themselves as well as a desire to make the internet safer for other children, whom they are increasingly aware are entering online spaces unsupervised at distressingly young ages.

Is harassment and bullying bad for perpetrators of it?

Before we get into how ship-related hate campaigns do not affect predation or combat rape culture, we should acknowledge that it’s actually pretty harmful for the people who cyberbully. Not just in the legal/social consequences, but people who participate in cyberbullying and cyberhate campaigns have higher rates of depression, estrangement from their parents, self-effacing habits, social anxiety, lower empathy, and so forth.

One study suggests that the treatment and prohibitive for cyberbullying, which contributes to a culture of cyberhate and a lower likelihood to report or confront other incidents of harassment or toxicity online, can be combatted with media competency to increase empathy along with other important life skills.

Some Common Pro-Censorship Myths

“Pornography is Addictive/Consumption of Pornography Leads to Increasingly Hardcore Imagery And Ultimately Real-World Violence” - The American Psychological Association does not recognize Porn Addiction as real and the DSM-5 does not classify it as an addiction. Additionally, many methods used in articles claiming that porn is addictive or causes users to seek out more hardcore material were flawed or biased. There is actually some evidence that compulsive porn use, the closest you can get to a porn addiction diagnosis, is associated with shame and the user’s belief that pornography is morally wrong, which sex-negative attitudes encourage.

“Jaws caused shark culling” - That's unfortunately a simplification that ignores a LOT of surrounding context. WW2’s modern naval battles with an increase of ship sinkings and thus contact with sharks prompted the invention and use of shark repellant by aviators and sailors in the 1940’s. The most deadly and famous shark attack of all time was the USS Indianapolis sinking in 1945, which led to 12-150 deaths. The 1974 book Jaws by Peter Benchley, which was the entire basis of the movie, was inspired by One Fucking Dude who started shark hunting tours and overall seemed to have a really immaculate vibe. The interstate highways that finished in the 1950’s increased beach tourism in the 60’s and onwards, inspiring the American surf culture, further increasing the cultural desire to purge sharks for the new swath of beachgoers and their fondness for using surfboards which make them look like seals to sharks. Additionally, 1975’s Jaws inspired a huge desire for education about sharks, and the relationship between problematic media and education will be the core of this yapperoni pizza.

“The Slendermen Killings/Other Fiction Inspired Crimes” - The ACLU states that “There is no evidence that fiction has ever driven a sane person to violence.” Inspired crimes are indeed no less tragic, and thankfully rare, but people who suffer from inability to discern reality and fiction do not necessarily need fiction to commit violence. The “Son of Sam” murder spree was not inspired by a book or movie, but instead Berkowitz’ auditory hallucinations.

“Violent videogames DO cause violence” - After a great deal of funding and study, the American Psychological Association has concluded that teens and younger may have increased feelings of aggression and not necessarily physically violent outbursts as a direct effect, but older teens and young adults do not encounter statistically meaningful rates of aggression.

“Your brain can’t tell the difference between fiction and reality” - Factually incorrect. Children as young as 5 years old can tell the difference, and they can even be more suspicious about “facts” that come from sources they know also host fiction, such as TV shows.

“This stuff shouldn’t be online because it can be used to groom a child” - While I could not find specific statistics on how often pornography is used to desensitize child victims, nor how often that is specifically used in online grooming, and especially not how much of that pornography is made from fictional characters - out of a mixed group of convicted offenders with adult and child victims, 55% of offenders used pornography to manipulate their victim. I would never refute that explicit fanart or fanfic could be used to desensitize a child, but that is by far not the only tool (asking about sexual experiences/identity, making jokes, etc is extremely common grooming behavior), and there is no evidence to suggest that it is used to a statistically significant degree. In my own anecdotal experience, normal vanilla legal pornography is used with far greater prevalence, and there isn’t a similar movement to shame its production for that possibility. Nor should the creators of any material, pornographic or otherwise, share blame in the actions of a predator.

The Fiction Affects Reality Carrd

(No hate to the person who made it, in fact I give props to them for trying to find unbiased sources, I just want to point out that their interpretations of their articles are kinda flawed and one of their studies is a kind of a perfect example on small and culturally biased samples.)

Reading Fiction Impacts Aggressive Behavior - (I cannot access the full study but this article is the primary source used in the Carrd and it goes into detail) - A study showed that 67 university students were more annoyed with a loud buzzer after reading a short story about a physical fight between roommates compared to a story with nonviolent revenge. However, this study was conducted at Brigham Young University, the same campus where we got a whole video series of hot ethical takes like “I’d rather shoot a kitten than drink coffee,” so uh. Yeah. Kind of a prime example on why it’s important to have large and culturally varied sampling. (Another BYU study with 137 BYU students being odd about moral ambiguity in fiction, just because I’m starting to add Dr. Sarah M. Coyne to my list of “Sarah’s That I Dislike.”)

Your Brain on Fiction - a NYT article that describes Theory of the Mind and how fMRIs captured how readers’ minds would light up centers of muscle control when reading sentences like “Peter kicked.” The quote “The brain, it seems, does not make much of a distinction between reading about an experience and encountering it in real life; in each case, the same neurological regions are stimulated” is speaking of motor functions. Emotional centers of the brain were not included in the study.

How Fiction Changes Your World - a Boston Globe article that actually describes how people who read more fiction are more empathetic and tend to believe in a just world. It does not state that the empathy a reader feels for fictional characters extends to corrupting their moral compass. In fact, there’s such a thing as a “fictive license” to explore taboo themes more thoroughly because it is not real - 123 participants were interviewed after watching two actors play the part of detective and murderer being interviewed, and participants who were told it was fake had more varied and inquisitive responses.

The Social Impact of Books - Actually reuses the previous study about the just world, so point remains. Empathy is understanding, not mirroring.

Is Problematic Fiction Good for Survivors of Trauma?

It absolutely depends on the individual.

Writing expressively about traumatic experiences has been shown to be effective to reduce depression, or more effective in reducing dysphoria and anxiety than talking to fellow survivors, and Written Exposure Therapy is broadly prescribed to survivors of trauma, with one study centering on car crash survivors finding that WET resolved their PTSD symptoms and continued to be effective after a year.

In this study, which sadly is not available online but it is too important to leave out completely, survivors of CSA were given fictional novels about CSA and in closely reading and analyzing those stories, were able to understand their own experiences and were indeed drawn to write about their own experiences as well.

Engaging in problematic fiction, like all fiction, allows for consent as well as control. If at any point a survivor does not feel in control or wishes to stop, they can at that instant. They can even rewrite their narratives and take control of their story in fictionalizing and changing the account. They can even try to understand what their abuser felt through fiction, which is helpful considering that the vast majority of survivors had a relationship that had been positive and even loving with their abusers at times.

Is Problematic Fiction Good for Everyone Else?

It again depends on the individual.

Antis might be a little right that most people don't want to read problematic stories. In a study exploring whether fiction can corrode morals, 83% of study participants stated that they would prefer not to read a short story justifying baby murder if they had the choice, even if that exploration isn’t inherently harmful.

This very small sample study of 13 participants discussed how young women interpreted sexual themes in writing, including explicit fanfiction, and how that was beneficial and informative to explore sexual desire and examine healthy and unhealthy relationships in a safe and controlled environment.

This meta-analysis further discusses how problematic and sexual themes in YA literature are useful to illustrate what sexual violence looks like, and begin educational conversations through those depictions to break down harmful myths such as “if she didn’t scream, she wanted it.”

Empowered by the “Fictive License” previously cited, problematic fiction can be beneficial for anyone who desires and is capable of consuming and analyzing it.

This study analyzing abusive aspects of three films - Beauty and the Beast, Twilight, and 50 Shades of Gray - concluded that these abusive themes should be discussed to increase recognition and awareness, not censored based on those problematic themes.

This study of 53 women were asked to read different versions of fictional intimate partner violence flags, or “toxic behavior” like surveillance, control, etc. In every version of the story, whether the female or male had those behaviors either courting or committed, the women recognized the behavior as wrong.

Another study that reading allows for the moral laboratory to explore morality in fiction without decisive impact to corroding moral permissibility.

Is There Ever Any Point Where Fictional Interests Definitively Speak On Someone’s Morality?

In short - not really. Loving Jason Vorhees does not put you at risk of murdering campers as long as you know he’s not real. Writing Wincest does not mean you look forward to family reunions, as long as you know incest isn’t okay in the real world. The real world, where real people are harmed, is where you find the measure of someone’s character.

This Psychology Today article is the best source I could find for quotes from a fantastic book ‘Who's Been Sleeping in Your Head? The Secret World of Sexual Fantasies’ by Brett Kahr regarding taboo sexual fantasies and how they are not only common, but not inherently harmful.

There are people who enjoy problematic media in an entirely nonsexual sense, of course. I myself don’t get off on problematic media - I think it’s just interesting to explore different experiences, and I think that can be revolutionary.

Additionally, fantasies in general have almost always been in the vein of “things you don’t want to really happen in reality.” In a study of 351 asexuals, more than half reported that they fantasize about having sex, but that doesn’t mean that they actually want to. You can fantasize about dating Billie Eilish - it doesn’t mean that you’d be happy dealing with celebrity culture.

(I personally fantasize about the internet being just for adults, but in practice I think that would be incredibly harmful and isolating for at-risk youth and LGBTQ teens) Fantasies always pluck out only the bits of reality that you want to engage with.

If You Get Off On Fictional Kids, You’re Attracted to Something About Them Being Kids

Not inherently, surprisingly. Wearing a schoolgirl uniform is a pretty common roleplay, and it’s not meant to “fool” the participants into thinking they’re indulging in pedophilia. There’s a wealth of emotional and sexual nuance in that specific kink - innocence and virginity play, tilted power dynamics in ‘scolding’ the uniform wearer for dress code violations, even the concept of a sexually provocative “teenager” can be played with without shame, because the world of fetish and fantasy is separated from condonable actions for the vast, vast majority of adults. (The only study I could find on this is this small study of 100 white guys found on Facebook, which itself states it is not definitive, found that while there might be correlation between attraction to children and interest in schoolgirl uniforms, there is no proof of causation. AKA, the rectangular pedophile might indeed like square schoolgirl uniforms, but not everyone - in fact, the majority at nearly 60% in this very survey - that likes square schoolgirl uniforms is a rectangular pedophile.)

Even sexual age play between adults is not indicative of pedophilia because it exists in a setting between two adults who fully understand that the mechanics are completely fake, allowing the power dynamics that would be abusive between an adult and child to be ethically explored.

I don’t have an official-looking study to cite, but I have asked people who like content about underage fictional characters why they do so. Overwhelmingly, a lot of the ones who like underage age gaps like the fantasy of an older and more experienced character taking a younger one under their wing, to have the opportunity to commit violent and blatantly objectifying harm and yet try to create what inevitably does not truly pass as consent, but seems near enough to the characters. Some think that the characters themselves have an interesting chemistry. Some read underage fic and still imagine the characters as adults. Some like to explore the feelings of shame that the older character must feel and how they mentally compartmentalize to go forward with the relationship, and how the younger character found themself in that vulnerable position - which is exploring a harmful situation through fiction to understand how it could play out in real life.

People who like fictional incest like exploring the shameful components of that taboo relationship - and I have seen a lot of works that compare how bad incest could be to other harms, like the Gravecest route in a game with parental cannibalism. And then there are folks who like analyzing the codependency of having one person fulfill every social need - family, friend, lover, AKA Wincest.

What makes a predator if it’s not just sexual attraction?

90% of CSA survivors know their abuser, discrediting the still-entirely-too-popular Stranger Danger myth. And shockingly, only 50% of abusers are pedophiles.

That means 50% of child molesters do not have sexual interest in children because they are children, but they victimized children because they are more accessible in lieu of adult partners, with increased rates of incest.

While I could not find a specific study on the relation between dehumanization/objectification of child victims and child molesters (and if you find one, please send it to me!), this study speaks on dehumanization as a precursor to adult sexual violence.

This study, conducted on convicted child molesters in prison, showed that child molesters tend to fantasize about children while in a negative mood, further contributing to the theory that child victims are dehumanized prior to abuse.

This very small sample study found that in a mixed sample of internet only/contact crime/mixed offenders, offenders who had contact with children had lower rates of fantasizing about children.

In short, half the time a child predator is someone who wants to offend against a child regardless of attraction to the fact they are a child.

Resources To Recognize Grooming/Abuse Victims/Predators

I would absolutely be remiss to not share my collection of resources to help detect signs of abuse/grooming as well as warning signs of a predator who may be targeting elders/women/teens/children:

Darkness 2 Light is a fantastic resource overall, this page details stages and signs of grooming.

RAINN personally helped me through my PTSD journey, and this article detailing the signs of sexual trauma in teenagers is thorough and non-judgemental

Signs of abuse as well as warning signs of predation that does not use gendered language nor play into the Stranger Danger myth.

Education, not Censorship

I think a lot of the energy against taboo content among young people still has a lot to do with the desire to end rape culture. The tools that we Millennial Tumblrinas gave you Gen Z kids were snatches of leftist theory, deplatforming, and voting with your dollar, so it’s reasonable to think that removing taboo content like pedophilia, incest, rape fights rape culture.

It doesn’t.

Rape culture is fought by education. Comprehensive sex education, education about consent. Talking about what consent looks like, what sex can look like, what rape can look like.

There should be more taboo content to talk about these things, to show all the shades it can look like. From a violent noncon to fics that aren’t even tagged as dubcon yet still are in shades that are hard to suss out, we should talk about it.

A Non-Empirical Example Of Good Media Analysis and Education to Combat Rape Culture

Let’s use the example of Daemon and Rhaenyra Targaryen’s relationship in House of the Dragon. Canonically, in both the book and the show, they have a romantic relationship that appears for the most part to be positive (the show being more contentious but I dedicated an aside to Sarah Hess and our beef at the bottom of my Carrd, but feel free to ask how I feel about writing producers with any variation of the name ‘Sarah’) despite an age gap, a sexual relationship that began while Rhaenyra was a minor, and incest - the problematic hat trick if you will.

I have seen anti-Daemyra shippers condemn Daemyra shippers for “Condoning grooming, age gaps, pedophilia, and incest.” Which is not just a broad, inaccurate, and harmful statement, it’s not at all constructive or educational analysis.

It would actually be beneficial to say “Daemon is grooming Rhaenyra as a teenager with gifts, devoted attention that takes advantage of her isolation and vulnerability, frequent nonsexual touches, the extreme desensitization to sexuality in the brothel visit,” etc etc. And even so, it is not useful to say that people cannot still ship the relationship and acknowledge those aspects. They might want to further explore the issues of consent in their dynamic in fiction, they may want to strip away some of them with narrative reimagining. Some might want to ignore the taboos completely and indulge in the fantasy entirely, and some might find the actors hot as hell - AKA, anyone who watches the show.

It’s honestly a little similar to me in how Jerry Falwell would tell his followers not to watch or read or take in any media that dealt with homosexuality unless it was condemning it - even Will & Grace was on Jerry’s shitlist. And so, Jerry’s followers missed out on a lot of media that could have educated them about queerness, could have humanized queer people for them - and that did not make queers go away. Just like ignoring or shutting out media about incest, rape, and other forms of sexual violence doesn’t make those things go away - it just tends to make you less informed, and little less capable of empathy towards people affected by those subjects.

So let’s stop shaming those that ship a complicated dynamic - you get less fanworks exploring those taboos, and less of a discussion overall. You shut down the morality lab of fiction, and to be honest, it’s wet sock behavior.

Some FanFiction Specific Studies

How dubcon fanfiction can flesh out the intricacies and messiness of realistic consent

A review of darkfic written about Harry Potter in 2005 (which, I will personally attest has never been outdone in how profoundly taboo those works were)

Interviews with 11 Self Insert writers who wrote on themes of rape, abuse, control, yandere, etc, and how that was beneficial to some who had experienced sexual violence themselves

Conclusion:

H…holy shit, you actually read all of that?? Congrats dude! That is a lot of time and brain power to dedicate to any one thing!

By the way, I am not really gifted at writing articles or any of that junk, and I tried to make my hyperlexic ass a little more accessible instead of bringing out all the $5 words. I am literally just an autistic who took a couple technical writing classes over a decade ago and really wanted to sort out my thoughts and try to have a platform for discussion. Also, I am really fucking bad at math. I failed two different college level statistics classes twice each. Gun to my head, I could not tell you what a standard deviation is, which is why I worked entirely with the percentages.

And I do want to have a discussion! I would in fact like to not report anyone for sending me gore or death threats or any of that stuff! I don’t think everyone will agree with me, in fact I’m certain that you could find studies that contradict some of mine, and I’d love to discuss them!

I’m sure it will still be tempting to throw around accusations of pedophilia because sometimes, confronting your previously held beliefs is incredibly uncomfortable. If you could not do that, that would be great? I don’t like being compared to someone who profoundly abused me just because I have a different opinion on how to combat rape culture and empower survivors. If you can do that, I’ll do my absolute best to be cheerful and welcoming and respectful as well. 😁

PS - I’m also not really going to be phased if you call me weird or cringe - I am. Always have been. Cringe, weirdness, and autism have made me do and capable of doing some fantastically neat and impressive stuff. But if you try to say something like “proshippers are too yucky and weird to be in fandom” - I’m going to have to refer you to your similarity to Kate Sanders of Lizzy McGuire fame, you “prEpz >:(“ - [My Immortal, legendary author unknown]

[hannigramislife]

Question: What's your opinion on all Dazai ships? I personally think that literally everyone could do better <3

Omgg anon, I love this ask so goddamn much!! Okay, let's get into it-this is gonna be long.

Two things before I continue. One, I'm a Hannigram fan, make of that what you will. Secondly, shipping does not mean "oh, these two are definitely canon, they have feelings for each other," shipping has always meant "I love their dynamic and can see a world where it could be romantic." That's why we have more than one.

Soukoku (Dazai/Chuuya) - Obviously this was gonna be my first choice to start this conversation. I think that soukoku is textually supported. I'm sorry, but there's just some things you don't write if you don't want people to ship two characters. These two are written for each other, therefore a perfectly valid ship. I myself do not ship skk, don't care about them as a ship at all, but I can certainly see the appeal. They have a history, and they're now on opposite sides, but still every bit the lethal team-up. I don't get the emotional side of it though – they inspire no such feeling in me, and I do believe Chuuya could definitely do better XD

Kunizai (Kunikida/Dazai) - This one I actually like quite a lot. I don't necessarily ship them in canon, but I believe they're good for each other. Kunikida with his rigidness and morals and Dazai with his carelessness and disaster that seems to follow him. I also like how Kunikida has a book where he jots down the best way to live, and Dazai has a book he carries around on how to die. I believe they're very different, but the sincere trust and care they have for each other, as well as the easiness of their partnership is something they both rely on and need. 10/10 ship.

Dazatsu (Dazai/Atsushi) - The age gap here is the biggest problem for people from what I've seen, but I don't think this is a proship or a bad ship that should be discouraged. Again, I don't ship it, but I feel it's perfectly fine if you do? "Oh, there's a power imbalance-" bitch, what power imbalance?? Like, you do know they're coworkers, right? Yes, Dazai saved him and Atsushi is grateful, but Atsushi is not stupid or blindly devoted or whatever. What he is, is mentally ill, but then again, so is Dazai, and if you think Dazai would take advantage of him, then that says more about Dazai as a character than it does the ship itself. Atsushi could definitely do better, and to me, that better is Akutagawa XD

Morizai (Mori/Dazai) - Well, I don't think I have any thoughts on this, other than the obvious ones. Dazai was a child in the Mafia, and they do seem to have a more guardian/ward relationship, fucked up as it is. Mori was definitely at least mentally and emotionally abusive to Dazai, from what we've seen. I don't think anyone would actually ship this? Unless you're talking purely fanfic scenarios. In this case, Dazai could do better. So yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and "nope" this.

Odazai (Oda/Dazai) - Now listen. Again, I don't ship this (I don't know if I ship anything that has Dazai, I hate the man), but if you think Oda and Dazai had a father/son relationship, you're delusional. Dazai cared so much for Oda, and upon reading Beast, I refuse to believe there was no universe where Dazai developed feelings for him. I think of them every time I listen to any Adele songs. "Them" being their Beast version. I'm so serious. This is a valid ship far as I'm concerned.

Dazaku (Dazai/Akutagawa) - This one is a ship that I get so riled up about. Because of the fandom. I honestly never gave this ship a second thought until I saw how hated it was. Then, I realized it's hated for all the wrong goddamn reasons. I don't ship it, because I hate Dazai on principle, but sometimes, I feel like I'm shipping it out of spite. It's like people can't make up their minds about the dynamic of these two. When you want to say Dazai abused Akutagawa, they'll be like "Oh, Dazai was a child, too!" Then you say they both grew and are healing – and maybe Dazai cared after all? – and it's all "You can't ship him with his abuser!" Well, which is it now? Is Dazai a bad guy still? Is it so wrong to want Dazai to care? To imagine Dazai pulling Akutagawa into the light with him? When people vehemently hate on this ship, I take that to mean "Yeah, Dazai is the worst, how could you ship Akutagawa with him?" Which, great take, I'm all for that. This ship is overhated in my opinion. Both Dazai and Akutagawa are two important pillars of what makes Bsd what it is. Their relationship is complicated and messy and important – so yeah, I'm not surprised people would ship this. Sometimes, toxic yaoi is where it's at, and you just wanna fix them. Akutagawa can DEFINITELY do better.

Souheki (Dazai/Ranpo) - I think they're besties. Absolutely nothing romantic here for me. I cannot see it, but I love them both, so I'd read fics at least. They're both geniuses who hold deep respect for each other. They may be able to understand each other much quicker and on a deeper level than other people, but I think they'd be a disaster if they were to date. Absolutely not. Plus, I'm a huge Ranpoe fan, so I'm biased.

Fyozai (Fyodor/Dazai) - They have a lot of tension, I'll give them that. They're two pretty, genius bitches playing 3 dimensional chess while everyone else plays checkers. Plus, being on opposite sides?? I can appreciate some enemies to lovers when I see it. I think if I were Fyodor, I'd definitely be interested in this young man who can match my intellect even as I've been alive since Jesus Christ was born. Also, don't ask me why, but they feel so gay when they're together – just, not for each other? I think in a no powers au, they'd definitely experiment together lmao. So, valid ship in-universe? I'm going to allow it. They could both do better.

Sigzai (Sigma/Dazai) - I don't know how this ship got popular?? I mean, sure?? Great ship?? Genuinely don't know what to say. I mean, they're there and they're both pretty?? I guess? Honestly, Sigma reminded me of Akutagawa, it was kinda funny to see. But go off XD??

I think that was it, lemme know if I forgot any major ships!

[weaselbeaselpants]

Legit Bad-take/Bad-Faith Helluvaverse critics you should not trust if you see them

Interpersonal squabbles within the critical tag are irrelevant, sorry. This here is a genuine warning against users you should keep your distance from in regards to any VivziePop drama-discourse because their names may come up and you should know what it is that crossed the line.

Starlatte/Starvader/HonestHazbinCritiques/OhGodDude and Woomycritiques/RaySquid - Serial harasser(s). Long story incoming. Starlatte was/is a Vivcritical who got involved in the fandom back in 2019/2020 when she was a minor and didn't tell anyone. Her blog on tumblr was HonestHazbinCritiques where she made some good points but also managed to find/be a part of everyone else's takes in the critical community. Her relationship with several criticalblogs turned sour when she started lashing out, talking over people, being accused of faking her age, and doing stuff like arguing with irl sexworkers abt how they should feel about Angel Dust. Whatever her age actually was at the time, she was also sending her own rewrite scripts and fanwritten episodes to Spindlehorse in order to 'fix' Hazbin. In 2021 Star returned to Tumblr under the name "Oh-God-Dude" w/o disclosing to new people who she was while also starting shit. When said new ppl found out her past and got mad at her, she proceeded to block-backtalk every one of them.

Woomycritiques (twitter handle: Raysquid) is a critical blogger who stans Star and calls everyone else in the critical community an obsessed stalker while lashing out herself. She accused others of racism (unfounded), her friends of predation just for being proship (not the 'cest and underage is good'-kind, the "I like some problematic stuff in fic-context"-kind), and heckled Dirgentlemen over how much they should hate Helluva, and more.

Regardless of if you believe Woomy and Star are the same person, which ppl do, they are both -by now- adult persons who have been asked to stop and DIDN'T, which is why people don't trust them. Star and Woom were asked to tone it down, stop making accusations and even asked by many criticals to leave and stop talking about Helluvaverse as she/they seem to have nothing good to say about it. To put that into perspective, cuz I know some HH/HB fans are gonna be reading this: the people who've self-styled themselves antis and criticals begged this person to leave cuz she had nothing nice to say and was being a nuisance. I know the stans think that's all of us anyway, so let that sink in.

LincarRox aka ToyTaker - Creep. Nasty jealous stalker freak who got kicked out of Helluvaverse servers and Aminos for saying nasty shit like how he "wants to put a baby" in Viv. No really. He took his shit and grievances to BadWebComics wiki under the name TheToyTaker while also seemingly trying to get work at Spindlehorse in order to have access to Viv directly and to 'fix' her show. He did so by faking his animation portfolio. BWW did eventually catch on and kick him out but yeah....bad. May or may not still be going under his old pseudonyms, but regardless if you see someone talking weirdly sexually abt Viv while saying they were "let go" both by SH and BWW, get out now. That's probably him.

Animation Call-Out - Bigoted shitlord. Twitter user who rags on Vivz' controversies w other people but also hates gays and BIPOCs. Admitted to submitting one of the anonymous reviews against Spindlehorse "for fun" amidst legitimate ex-employees. All of the reviews, even the ones that seem the most validating/believable should be taken with a grain of salt I believe especially since they are coming to us anonymously, but when a racist person admits to def being one of those fake reviews for "Lolz" sake, that's def when shit's hit the fan.

DoodleToons - Also bigoted creeperlooser. Altright white kid who hates BIPOC existing in anything and admits to hating Viv's stuff for their LGBTisms and 'demons'. Yes, there legit are bad-faith critics who are homophobic. Just because Viv and her crew have a way of saying that's EVERY critic of her work doesn't mean there aren't shitty people out there.

[olderthannetfic]

I think the issue with antis using proshitter isn't the level of snark or the pettiness, bet we've all done some childish insults. Problem is that these guys will literally use proshitter in these longwinded essays about morality, and how serious it all is to show how bad proshipping is and then just have these toddler-ish insults thrown in. To them proshipping seems to basically be the same as actual illegal things, now imagine if they did the same thing with the things they compare or accuse proshipping of. "These doodoo heads are pedophiles." "These stinkybumbums are definitely into incest." Anyone who's got even an ounce of brain matter is probably going to be very weirded out that someone could talk and accuse people of something so serious, while at the same time sounding like a toddler being angry. Sure it's kinda funny because it's so infantile, but that childishness is also just so weird, and really does show a lack of maturity. Don't get me started on actual children antis who expose themselves to things clearly labelled to not be for the.

--

[molars-chain]

Hello, I'm Jasper, or rivsticks on discord, as named in Red's post.

I want to start this out by saying, I'm going to take this as an opportunity to explain my side of the story, which I was never given a chance to previously. My goal is to show you the offenses I was banned for, and explain as accurately and honestly as possible, so I'm going to be posting all the related screenshots in which I spoke for the sake of clarity and context. For that reason, since I'm on mobile, I'll be posting screenshots in subsequent posts. All I ask is that you keep an open mind and take this at face value.

Yes, I participated in fandom discourse regarding Prospero and his sexuality. This topic is something important to me as an aroace person uninterested in romance, as representation for us is few and far between, but I never meant for it to become any more than just that- impersonal fandom discourse. Yes, I involved myself in the conversation about proshipping and it's definition, but that was to ask for clarification about one of Red's messages and briefly add my opinion. I'll admit, I probably could have handled that a bit better, but I don't think it's grounds for this reaction. There was no secret clique, or any premeditated attacking of anyone at any time, notice how there wasn't a single screenshot to corroborate their claim of shit-talking. They came to that conclusion on pure assumption only, and have taken it as fact since with no chance of defense or counter. It's bad faith. Again, I want to reiterate that we were a loose group of friends, not a 'clique', and it's not fair at all to take what another member of that server said and let it reflect on me under the guise of, 'but they were a group'. Nobody should take responsibility for anything I said, and I will not take responsibility for anything anyone else said. I am my own person, able to think for myself, not part of a single entity like how I am consistently grouped. I find it troubling that that is the narrative that was spread without any chance for me to truly defend myself. I have been name dropped multiple times as if this were the case, and I will be honest, it's a little frustrating. They said they pride themselves on taking all sides into consideration, but as far as I know not a single person named in the ban was dmed for any sort of clarification.

Now that I've said my peace with that situation, I'd like to touch very briefly on the Crimson situation. I feel that if it's so intertwined with me that you have to drop my name in a post about it, I should add my two cents. I think it's childish to bring my and my friend's ban up again months after it happened, to try and justify letting Crimson back into the server. Ignoring evidence like this against someone, just because it came forward from an individual Red deemed untrustworthy (with little to no proof, I may add) when you could have easily asked for more context or uncensored screenshots, is irresponsible. That's all I have to say.

Thank you for reading. I'll be posting the screenshots soon, they're giving me some trouble.

[aqours]

you know what nobody ever really tells you tbh???

how like... weird it feels to become openly proship

like!!! when you don't have to do it in secret anymore bc you're afraid of being turned on by "friends" and you can just publicly make your belief on this public, no matter how little or much it means to you personally and you can be assured like the new online friends you make will have that stance

like, i've been proship for a very long while now, but i only really started becoming really public about it like two and a half years ago and it's still...

so... weird, almost?

i still remember seeing so-called "friends" literally gleeful and giddy to rip apart a mutual they talked to on a daily basis for months, if not years, for immediate clout. people taking very private information as ammunition to load a gun. adults ready to reblog and mock the minors being called out that they outright encouraged to become as vicious as possible with those children completely unaware they were being put on a chopping block. people who acted like the people in their closest circles were an actual found family and very happily ripping it apart because they'll get a hundred notes or maybe just a little more if they write the callout.

and being there, nervously smiling, hoping it wouldn't be my turn next. and the absolute fucking shame that comes with trying to ignore it: or even participating in it hoping you won't be next.

... anyone else still feel like this isn't real sometimes? like, even if you don't have a single anti friend anymore: just that... that feeling. that distrust. the paranoia from the old days.

anyone else still sometimes feel that old anxiety swell up, even though you know it won't happen again?

[honeybnuuy]

I was thinking (dangerous, I know) about how when antis talk about why proshipping is bad, I commonly see them say "you're normalizing xyz by posting about it in a neutral or sexualized light!" and I think the reason so many people take that at face value is because it sounds right when you don't think about it for a minute.

I mean, of course the mind would be desensitized to a topic if you indulged in it even if its just in fiction, right? But no, that's not true, you may be desensitized to it in fiction, sure! But overall, in real life, it would still be revolting to hear about. I think the issue kind of lies in the fact antis really do think fiction affects reality on a 1:1 scale. Fiction (in this case dark fiction specifically) only affects the reality of those who's morality on those subjects are weak enough to be changed in the first place, or those whose perception of reality isn't always accurate.

I feel like the concept of an unreliable narrator is also important to bring up in this conversation. Personally, when I draw or indulge in dark fiction that is sexual or neutral, I can say to myself "Oh, this work isn't promoting this in real life, and the POV it's from is from an unreliable narrator." I think if antis applied that thinking to art/writing/music more maybe it would start to make more sense why people are ok with that stuff in fiction. No one's saying these things are good to do irl, but the artist is conveying an romanticized or sexualized version of actual events, from the point of view of an unreliable narrator.

I don't really know how much sense this makes, rereading it I feel like it's coherent enough, but if anyone has questions or whatever let me know!

[myfandomrealitea]

saw ur post about going incognito into spaces and stuff and i wanted to add my own thoughts about my experience of basically being stuck in places where proshippers r hated (not against wut ur saying! i definitely agree that theres no benefits and honestly its not that fun)

the fandom that im currently in is.. very toxic. someone got harassed to the point of having to delete their account bc they "supported" a proshipper (it was literally just them saying that u shouldnt harass this person just bc theyre proship-). a lot of my friends were very supportive of this person and agreed that ppl shouldnt be harassed over shit like that and many of them seem to have similar viewpoints as me (anti harassment and all that) but prefer to stay away from that stuff

the fandom is basically ran by antis. theres a small corner that some ppl have made where they talk about proship stuff freely (love those ppl so much theyre genuinely so nice) but overall its. not the best place to be if ur proship. which is interesting to me bc theres actually a shocking amount of proshippers that just... dont say anything. on my side blog ive had multiple ppl interact that i thought were anti (or at least just. not proship in some way) but would literally go and like all my posts about incest ships of the characters.

and sometimes i think about it and how theres actually a bunch of proshippers but we're so heavily harassed and silenced that we just- dont say anything. but the fandom is small and we cant exactly separate ourselves from it if we really like the show. and i feel especially bad for some of the bigger blogs that ppl love and adore bc i know wut would happen if somehow ppl found out and made some big post or wutever.

i dont pretend to be antiship but i dont outright say im proship unless i really trust that person

im currently trying to make my own lil space with some friends so at least if anything goes wrong i at least have a few ppl but its a bit scary to think about honestly-

Although it can be full of snot-nosed superiority complexes, I do recommend using the AO3 Subreddit in order to find likeminded people for your fandom. The very vast majority of the AO3 Subreddit is proship or at least proship neutral. Antis are generally eviscerated on sight whenever they try to poke their nose into it.

If you have any other fandoms that you are active in or have friends within, there's also no harm in introducing them to your small fandom.

From what I understand the Marvel fandom did kind of the same thing you're describing with the Starker shippers, but they flourished and supported each other anyway.

I know its easy for me to simply say 'do it anyway' as someone who generally could not give a fuck about anyone's opinion of me, but honestly. Do it anyway. Form your little collective. Support each other. Learn how to write and draw and make GIFs so you feed your own portion of the fandom. You physically do not need those people, it just unfortunately takes a bit of effort and means potentially a bit less content until you start really generating your own.

Fandom spaces do not start out from nothing. Promote the shit out of your fandom. Draw people in. Comb through the proship tags and send asks to blogs like mine asking other proshippers to check out the source material.

People in small fandoms are easy to bully because you're so enclosed into this circle of the exact same people. They happen to be the majority in the room and they're weaponising it.

Force them into a bigger room.

[rosatherad]

i wrote this in the replies of another post but i think this could be its own so here, some of my thoughts on fandom purity discourse

pro-ship/anti-ship discourse seems to be mostly a tool to create an us-vs-them situation, to demonize each other and attack each other endlessly. and i say this as someone knee-deep in the discourse. thats not to say its pointless discourse, that its not important in some way. but its also not an enormous thing either. its origins are but a small part of a larger problem (or two, or three, depending on how you look at it etc)

get christian puritanism and queerphobia and impressionable young progressives who just want to do the right thing and fandom spaces and put them all together and you get the first anti-shippers, get antis doing anti stuff for long enough and you get the first reactionary pro-shippers, and the more time passes the more these two extreme ends get further and further apart

and then both sides are calling the other a cult, calling the other groomers and predators, creating strict walls to separate each others spaces while simultaneously infiltrating them to start fights, both sides bonding by talking bad about the other, extreme pro-shippers and extreme anti-shippers are mirror images of each other

these problems could all be solved i think if people were willing to calm down and listen to each other, to mend the miscommunications, to understand each other and elaborate their points with patience and openness and NUANCE. but unfortunately, social media cultivates the opposite

------

i do block people with "proship dni" and anyone else i see who shares their dislike of proshippers, because i think those boundaries should be respected. but i won't say "antis dni" in return. i want to get along. if people want to talk to me about it, i want to have conversations with them, not to convert them to my side or to tell them how wrongbad they are. i would give anyone the chance to have a good-faith chat about the discourse, i'll answer questions to the best of my ability.

[magmythedevil]

IMPORTANT POINTS ABOUT THE DRAMA BEFORE PEOPLE SPREAD MESINFORMATION

Context:

I made a post answering an anon's ask giving comfort for them because they were scared that their favorite ship: dollzi, would end up being being canon cousins. Its seems like anomaly is REALLY uncomfortable by this ship and genuinely thinks that anyone who ships or defends Its needs to be blocked on sight. I made a post apologising If i made someone uncomfortable by that and then a lot of people started to send me asks about It.

The points:

- Never have i once denied the problematics on Dollzi I just dont think they are on the same level of actual proshipping, like N x Cyn.

- i think that accusing dollzi shippers and anyone who defends it of being weirdos is a similiar rethoric to what nuzi haters did months ago, and If people can hate on dollzi, they should hate on every ship on murder drones, since all of them are questionable. With some worse and some better than others. Nuzi vs Luzi for example

- im not mad at anomaly and i have never started all of this just for her to unblock me I genuinely see no problem with It. I Just wanted to talk about It. Anyone can do whathever they want with their plataforms and she has ALL the right to be uncomfortable by dollzi

- I Just think accusing people who like dollzi and blocking them on sight because she thinks Its similar to proshipping is something that goes too far, Shes making some people in the fandom feel genuinely scared to commit even a litte mistake

- theres nothing to be worried about me! So Please dont accuse anomaly of harming me or something. I am okay genuinely

- i have NEVER defended actual pro,shipping. I dont support ince-st, pe-do, not any of these types of ships

- even If Doll and Uzi really are cousins in the end. It doesn't change the fact that making people feel bad to ship It before It gets confirmed, when Its not comparable to gross ships like khan x uzi, something not so nice to do. I would feel bad for them because i know how they feel.

Edit 14 hours later:

- i don't even ship them i even defend the theory that their mothers are sisters. Everything i wanted to do was comfort the Dollzi shipper, Bc i dont like having double standards and every shipper of harmless ships deserves respect.

[n4talia-chaparro]

"Omg 5 days without posting?! Lmao so funny."

Yeah I get it >|:/

I wanted to make this post cuz a lot of you were so "CoNcERnEd" about me and the allegations made by the anons. And well in case people wanna find "info". I kinda don't care if people wanna keep attacking me and shit but yk. I have to speak up and explain.

So I wanna start by saying that what I did last Thursday and Friday was very retarded and dumb of me and I highly apologize once again. I was not in the right mindset and it was never my intention to ignore anyone's advice. I have been mentally unstable and stressed that I couldn't focus. Yeah. I was having anger issues and a meltdown. I couldn't control them so I'm apologizing for the way I acted that time without thinking straight. It's not easy to be a CU artist because of what's happening and I admit it's not easy for me to be perfect like you guys wanted me to be. I tried everything yet you guys seem to judge and shove words in my damn throat.

About the allegations... the anons were also after one of my moots so I wanted to explain and debunk them. It's giving me a headache and overwhelming the living shit out of me.

(BTW pls I do NOT encourage harassment or any sort of threats to anyone mentioned in this post)

The grooming: this allegation is false. I'm sick of seeing them throwing the allegations around like it was some sort of volleyball-type shit. (I'm A MINOR !!! Not a adult-)

The reason why they were spreading those is because of my grooming situation I had a few years ago when I had 9-11 (and UNSUPERVISED). It all started on amino and I met my groomer. (I'm calling them M cuz yea). M and I were close friends and we used to talk. My groomer was a Krupp x Melvin shipper, a pro-shipper obviously, they would force me to do NSFW roleplay and art based on their favorite ship. (Keep this in mind I was younger at that time and I never knew how to say no to them) and they even guilt-trip me and stuff just make me feel bad and well. They would often force me to ship them too...yikes...

One day we argued and their friends decided to cause drama in the group chat. They pointed fingers at me and called me a predator. Again I was 9. I wasn't aware of what proshipping is until age 12. A lot of shit happened. I got threats, harassment, etc. And at the age of 13-14 I was groomed by someone different um yayy...:/// I was never taught about the internet safety.

And that's where the "Natty is a groomer" bullshit came from :/

I'm 16 now and to this day I keep receiving those rape threats and stuff over my past and then seeing people spreading those is dumb. The anon even went to Linavloger's blog to send a rape threat and told her I was gonna groom her. This is fucking disrespectful. Lina is Younger than me, she's fucking 13. I find it disgusting that you guys choose to tell her that. It's gross for fuck's sake. What is your problem????? For the love of God stop spreading that allegation. Not only you are making me uncomfortable but also the others who were involved. Literally, stop.

My trauma is not for you to joke with it or use it as a shield. It's gross that people are making fun of me for that. No I mean yeah. My past wasn't great because I met people who already sexualized me too many times but it doesn't mean you have to bring it up and tell everyone about it. :"(

The sexualization: The anon mentioned that I sexualized Harold in one of my videos which is again funny yet bullshit because according to them it was because of a pride month pin and small accessories..

When I say pin i meant this- 😭

Like I'm so sorry but how is this sexualizing him? It's a Pride Month pin. A PIN. How the fuck can yall be this stupid. It was an old video and you took it so seriously????? Like what???? Have you read the 12th book??? There's no way you think it's sexualization when it's Harold with an MLM pin.

This also goes to the AGERE subject. I do NOT normalize nor promote ddlg. There's a difference between ddlg/ageplay and an ACTUAL coping mechanism and I'm tired of hearing this bullshit over again like stfu so uh.

Ddlg/ageplay is where random ass adults roleplay as children and do weird shit.

Agere on the other hand is where someone reverts to a young mindset to cope with trauma, stress, severe illness, or disorders. (Mainly a safe way to cope ofc)

These are the differences between them. You cannot just tell me it's the same shit dawg. 😭

The "ripping off" thingy: another thing that I wanna address is about the au :/

The anons that I dealt with were just infini-tree fans/supporters and tree house members. Well idk. They may sound like whiney little cunts but still-- my AU does NOT have any similarity with THAT. Why would I steal ideas from someone who BLOCKED me for no reason and sent her fans after me??? No really how? How can a blocked user steal ideas if they can't see, or interact with the post (like & reblog)? Be real y'all. You may seem ridiculous if you believed those anons cuz none of them didn't pull the evidence out of their ass. 💀

"You need to apologize to her" for what? Dawg I didn't do jack shit to her in the first place LMAO yeah like--- don't get me started on that bs again. I don't wanna hear her damn name, I don't wanna know anything about her aus and shiii-- or anything related to her in my inbox or dm. I do NOT wanna have anything to do with that individual. End of the story. Not trying to be harsh, rude, or anything but like. It's annoying. I don't like to be compared to anyone or deal with the same bullshit.

Mhm yea like man. Idk what else I need to debunk but pls don't believe those anons dawg.

You can't even ask for proof cuz they don't gave any 🥰🥰💀💀💀‼️‼️‼️😭😭😭 LOL IMAGINE FABRICATING ALLEGATIONS Y'ALL ARE SO DUMB 🗣‼️‼️‼️🔥🔥🔥

[sparkling-pink-lemonade]

Whenever I see a post while looking through the proship tag that says "Not proship, not an anti, but a secret third thing, a person with a job", or otherwise talks about how they thing the debate is stupid and "chronically online" when there are "real problems" in the world. It's so often just a block on sight.

We know it's stupid, that's why it's so important to us. Right now people are fighting against the censorship of queer media, plus the demonizing of consensual self exploration that isn't considered "normal". Do these people think that the struggle will stop and conclude peacefully if we try to compromise?

"This media that focuses on socially deviant topics (queer people/drag/kink) is important and should be allowed to exist with fair and proper maturity ratings that aren't held to a double standard for being 'taboo', allowing people to determine for themselves if this is a topic they wish to engage with. But this media that focuses on socially deviant topics (underage/incest/any abuse with an unreliable narrator pov) is evil, and will corrupt your children by merely existing. So it's alright to not allow anyone, not even adults, access to this material, or even the resources to create said fiction, because we know what topics they are mentally equipped to engage with better than they do."

The people censoring queer media don't give a fuck if you present yourself as 'morally' pure and good by trying to seem separated and 'better' than the evil enemy they're 'actually' against. They just see you're against 'evil deviancy', and view that as reasoning as to why queer media counts as 'evil' and should be banned. So unless people stop fighting with hypocrisy, we'll get nowhere.

All this anti-ship stuff started with fandom, but continued to gain traction and now runs rampant. Thanks to it, purity culture has been more severe than it ever has been, and even if someone has never heard the word proship in their life, they HAVE had experience with anti ideology and behavior. And if you want to fix this shit, you have to start at the roots.

I am proship because I DO have a life/touch grass/have a full time occupation/whatever you want to call it, and I'm sick and tired of slowly losing the freedom of expression as the rest of the world fights about what kind of media I'M allowed to enjoy. And that's not stupid or insignificant.

[olderthannetfic]

Next on silly fandom drama:

A discord server I'm in has been having some drama and I just don't get what the issue is AT ALL.

So, currently, there is a general NSFW channel for all NSFW content and a NSFW channel specifically for fandom content like fic writing and brainstorming.

The general one barely gets used while the fandom one has become sort of a hub for anything and everything sexual, even if it's not related to fandom. It's also where many SFW conversations take place now, and the rest of the server is a bit dead, so if people want to be on the server and participate, they can't really effectively set boundaries between SFW and NSFW content. The server wasn't originally intended to be mainly a NSFW server and in fact we have people as young as 14 on the server.

I'm not an anti (and no one on the server is, we've all been pretty explicitly proship before) and I don't want to stop these discussions happening but it gets a bit uncomfortable for even me at times, with people asking and answering questions about their personal sex lives and kinks rather than about the fandom we share.

Someone anonymously suggested that we separate out the channels again so more personal stuff could go in the general one and the fandom one could be kept for fandom related stuff, which I and a few other people thought was a really good way of dealing with it, because it wasn't asking anyone to stop talking about it, just allowing people who were uncomfortable with it to mute the channel.

The DRAMA that ensued. Three of the main people who were sharing the sort of more personal stuff took this as a personal attack and starting going on about how this suggestion was violating their safe space, they thought other people should just take "mental health breaks" from the channel, and they had to leave the server to recover.

Anyway, then people started bending over backwards to apologize and decided that we shouldn't separate the channels, or they should be separated into fics and art channels (solving no one's problems whatsoever). The people who reacted viciously against the idea of separating them are now freezing out all the people who messaged in support of separating them and it's all just getting a bit ridiculous (very high school IMO).

Mostly I think it's kind of funny that grown adults are throwing their toys out of the cot over being asked to separate fiction and their real lives, but I genuinely cannot understand what the issue is. No one is being asked to censor themselves?????

--

Oh anon. Can you really not understand?

They were asked to accept a lower level of attention.