#you're introduced to JGY first!

[jin-zixun]

JGY: "wow it sure is great you guys put me in charge and made me the chief cultivator! I'm doing my best!"

LXC: "Well of course since you took down Wen Ruohan and won the sunshot campaign for everyone we'd have been sol if it wasn't for you! Jin Guangyao!"

like i get it, it's an adaptation we all know who JGY is but like it's so fucking funny the donghua just infodumps all of this like 2 seconds after actually introducing JGY. like he shows up first thing S2, beats the S1 bad guy in his *introduction to the show* and now he's in charge, you caught up? good.

like this must have been how the cultivators felt in Nightless City like "wait WRH was just killed by who? Who is that? Has he been here all this time? Wait what?"

[canary3d-obsessed]

Restless Rewatch: The Untamed, Episode 40 part two

(Masterpost) (Pinboard)  (whole thing on AO3)

Warning! Spoilers for All 50 Episodes!

What a Relief

After spending a few weeks in Gusu doing...stuff, our trio comes to Jinlintai for the discussion conference. Unusually for a CQL stair-climbing scene, nobody is planning to murder anyone once they get to the top.

Our crew walks up the stairs past 3 massive sculpted reliefs featuring Jin Guangyao.

First and most important, I have to point out that the sculpture version of Lan Xichen [edit: Nie Mingjue actually, whoops] is wearing a sash that looks like this:

*cough*

Meanwhile, for the picture with the sword and flames, qhanzi.com tells me that the written characters are 伏殺, fú shā; Google translate tells me this means "ambush." Specifically Fu=conceal, Sha=kill. Ballsy to have a monumental artwork on your front steps announcing that you're a backstabbing turncoat, Jin Guangyao.

Speaking of balls, Jiang Cheng jumps at the opportunity to bust some when the Lan bros arrive with Wei Wuxian in tow. He pretends not to know who Wei Wuxian is, but obviously does know something, given how bitchily he asks to be introduced. Lan Wangji continues his 13-year-long silent treatment of JC while Lan Xichen tries to figure out which bland smile he's meant to be deploying in this situation.

(more after the cut!)

They're all rescued by the appearance of Jin Guangyao 3.0, who has discarded his Nie braids and his Wen hotness in favor of Jin ostentatiousness.

He's no longer wearing the v-neck robe and topknot crown that we associate with the cultivation sects. Instead he's wearing a hat and a round-necked robe with a big embroidered design on the chest, that resembles the clothing style of a court official.

Some people see JGY's bureaucratic wardrobe as signaling that he's an unassuming administrator, someone who is not threatening to the power structure or is not ambitious. I see it more as conveying that his ambition reaches beyond the cultivation sects into the realm of dynastic/imperial politics.

Anyway, Jiang Cheng turns his ire towards his nephew, and Lan Xichen relaxes again. Possibly he is a little too relaxed, judging by how he's ogling Jiang Cheng.

I'm high as a kite, I just might stop to check you out

Party Monster

Fanfics are often accused of giving us an out-of-character (OOC) Wei Wuxian, but no fanfic Wei Wuxian is as OOC as the Wei Wuxian who attends this banquet. Normally Wei Wuxian is a mildly annoying flirt, but as soon as soon as he arrives in Koi tower he is (presumably) possessed by the spirit of Jin Guangshan, and becomes a gross sex pest.

He goes out of his way to hit on the wife of the clan leader and make googly eyes at all of the maids, whose social status doesn't allow them to be rude to him. And he does it in front of his date! What the hell, possessed Wei Wuxian.

While oblivious to Lan Wangji's jealousy, Wei Wuxian does check in with him to make sure it's ok to put on his "crazy Mo Xuanyu" act. LWJ replies with a certain amount of salt, but once Wei Wuxian makes it clear he's thinking about Lan Wangji's public face, LWJ chills out and answers him normally.

Side note: in no universe would this cute lil maid be making eyes at heavily-masked Mo Xuanyu when unmasked, radiant, filthy-rich Lan Wangji is right there to be smiled at.

Jin Guangyao greets everyone and some dancers start doing their thing; mercifully, possessed Wei Wuxian refrains from hitting on the dancers. As soon as Jin Guangyao starts to circulate through the room, Nie Huaisang has an epic nervous breakdown all over him, which is even better entertainment than the dancers.

This gives Wei Wuxian the cover he needs to slip out of the hall unnoticed. Well, as long as nobody notices Lan Wangji's obvious pining.

Fight Club

The prophecy foretells that into each generation of Jins will be born one douchebag cousin. Jin Chan is the douchebag cousin of his generation.

Jin Chan accuses "Mo Xuanyu" of being a sex pest, and Wei Wuxian suddenly understands why the plot made him act so OOC at the party. Mo Xuanyu wasn't really a sex pest; he was a regular pest, trying to get information out of Qin Su, not trying to seduce her. But he doesn't know that yet. In other adaptations Mo Xuanyu is gay, but CQL exists in a strange censorship-created realm in which gayness is pervasive but never mentioned, and therefore there is no homophobia. So nobody would care if Mo Xuanyu was gay.

When Wei Wuxian realizes what Mo Xuanyu did, he thinks "Mo Xuanyu, do you want to die?"

Nice choice of idiom, Wei Wuxian. I believe we have firmly established that yes, Mo Xuanyu absolutely did want to die.

The show is kind of vague, verbally, about whether Wei Wuxian 2.0 has a golden core. But there are a lot of moments that strongly suggest he does, at this point, have a functioning core.

This rock attack is, I hope, one of those moments, or else Jin Chan is a total pussy, getting knocked back by landscape gravel.

Next, Wei Wuxian shows Jin Ling the super-secret move known as "arm twisting," which Jin Ling, as an only child, has never encountered before.

Anyone with siblings is very familiar with this move.

Because this is The Untamed, this move should be executed with extra spinning whenever possible.

Jin Ling learns the move right away, and uses it to win the scuffle.

Avuncular

After the fight, Wei Wuxian sits with Jin Ling for a chat, and gives him the classic uncle advice "have as many fights as possible while you're young, because when you're older you'll have to be mature and get along with people."

I love Wei Wuxian so much.

For contrast, Jin Ling says that Jin Guangyao tells him not to get in fights. This makes Wei Wuxian seem like the cooler elder, but it also has a more sinister element, of Jin Guangyao holding Jin Ling back. Jiang Cheng and Wei Wuxian grew up constantly fighting with each other--sparring as well as informal fights, presumably. And their cultivation was super strong, partly as a result of that.

Wei Wuxian takes the opportunity to tell Jin Ling that he's not in love with Qin Su any more, because he's transferred his affections to someone else. Obviously Hanguang-Jun is the someone else, given that they've been inseparable for weeks. To keep Jin Ling from yelling while he explains, he clamps his hand over Jin Ling's mouth.

The thing is, in order to effectively clamp your hand over someone's mouth, there has to be something behind them--a wall, the mattress, your own torso, or something else solid. Otherwise they can just jerk their head backwards to get away from your hand. Or they can stand up and walk away, even.

Jin Ling, hilariously, does not realize this, and spends a ridiculously long time sitting still and making angry faces while Wei Wuxian rests his hand on his face.

Spy Game

Later that night, Wei Wuxian and Lan Wangji get ready for some shenanigans.

Not the sexy kind, alas, just some paperman snooping.

Wei Wuxian, because he's facing serious danger, is feeling extra playful and cute, and he takes time to goof around with Lan Wangji before getting down to business.

In paperman form, he's able to do some things that the censors overlook, including tugging on Lan Wangji's headband and apparently blowing him a kiss. In the book and the donghua, he catches onto Lan Wangji's lip on his way down his face, too.

One thing that's kind of muted in the live action as compared to the novel is how much Lan Wangji enjoys Wei Wuxian's childish and playful behavior. Lan Wangji never got to be playful as a child, but with Wei Wuxian he can cut loose--which he does mostly in the sack or when they're drinking together. But even when he stays in control of himself, he likes Wei Wuxian's silliness.

He tells Paper-Xian, tenderly, to be very careful, before he sends him on his way.

The Adventures of Paperman

The CGI department outdoes itself with paperman, making an animated character so adorable I'd be happy to watch a whole episode of him.

Paper-Xian sneaks into JGY's study and pokes around, finding an empty envelope. Then he listens and watches while Qin Su stumbles in, retching.

She's followed closely by Jin Guangyao; they proceed to have an absolutely fucking endless argument in which the words "sister," "brother," "incest" "rapist dad" are never said, instead using vagueburger phrasing like "this matter."

Jin Guangyao does freely admit to killing their kid, though, and wants to know who told Qin Su about it so he can kill them, too. She won't tell him, shockingly.

Jin Guangyao ends the fight by putting a paralysis spell on his wife and then making her go to sleep with another spell, which is the cultivator equivalent of saying "I've said what I had to say and I need some space."

He takes her into a secret room where he is also keeping a bunch of talisman-protected stuff and a shockingly small number of books.

Seriously, as a person who has way too many books, I am personally offended by the way Jin Guangyao wastes shelf space in his secret room.

As Paper-Xian sneaks around the room, Jin Guangyao helpfully pulls aside the curtain covering the shelf with Nie Mingjue's head on it, so he can grouse at NMJ for (figuratively) haunting him. Seriously? Dude, you keep a guy's head on your bookshelf, he gonna haunt ya.

The episode ends with Paper-Xian bowing (adorably) to Nie Mingjue, and then sitting laying on his face, which would make BOTH Lan brothers jealous if they found out.

Soundtrack: Ring the Alarm, by Beyonce; Blister in the Sun, by the Violent Femmes

[hannigramislife]

so i have a question that i swear is meant with complete sincerity (i just want to preface that because i know some people send shitty passive aggressive asks and i dont wanna be misunderstood).

I dislike dazai a lot and for most of the same reasons that you do but i also really dont like jgy for basically all the same reasons. I just know you're a big jgy fan but you really hate dazai and i was wondering how you reconcile those feelings? i assume we just have different interpretations of jgy (mdzs is a vast piece of media and there's a lot of different ways to interpret each character) but i've just been getting more and more curious so i wanted to ask. to be clear, i think it's totally okay to like jgy! the same way i think its okay for dazai fans to like dazai, they're just fictional characters. so this is in no meant as an attack or an 'ah ha!' moment. i just sort of don't understand liking one character and not the other when to me, all of their worst traits are the same and jgy has actually done far worse things than dazai (like murdering his own son)

i hope my ask isnt upsetting at all. you mentioned before liking to discuss meta so i really just want to introduce a conversation and maybe understand your perspective a bit better

Firstly, thank you so much for your polite ask!

I just wanna clear something up – I am not a Jgy fan XD. I see where one might think that, but I can guarantee you, I wanted him dead as fuck and I do not condone his atrocities.

Now, I do have some friends who have talked to me about Jgy, and they're Xiyao and Nieyao fans, respectively, so by talking with them, I have come to understand better some parts of Jgy's character, which have made me more forgiving towards some of his actions. Emphasis on some. Like you said, he and Dazai share the same annoying/frustrating traits, like the fact that they're lying liars 😊

I do appreciate Jgy as a character much more than I do Dazai though, that is correct, and I guess it's because of their narrative roles. Jgy has a very solid and interesting position in mdzs – in a world where social standing is such an important part of the story, the genius, bastard son of one of the wealthiest clans is constantly kicked down (lol couldn't resist), because the system has decided he doesn't deserve the same power as his half-brother, simply because of his birth situation.

And the narrative stays true to it! Time and time again, he is shut down, even when he goes to Lanling with Nie Mingjue's recommendation letter, even when he kills Wen Ruohen, even when he is married to secure his status, fate has fucked him over. It's like trying to watch Icarus reach the sun because he feels he is entitled to it.

Plus, I'm a huge Nieyao fan XD in a "they could have totally gotten married and lived happily ever after, but nooo; some of us have daddy issues *glares at jgy*"

So, this is the reason my posts have stopped being so antagonistic to Jgy, as I like to live in a delusional world where they've reincarnated in the modern world, jgy has some morals, and 3zun is happy 😇

Now, Dazai, on the other hand, I simply can't stand him. Nothing about his story or personality makes me go even as far as "yes, and?" I don't care for him as a character (though I get how he is appealing to people). I don't understand his actions 90% of the time. Plus, his actions are also frustrating and make me mad.

Like when Chuuya used corruption and he was like, "take me back at the place," and Dazai just left his ass there. "Oh, but that's their dynamic," yes, well, it annoys me. Plus, his whole thing with Akutagawa drives me up a wall because how dare you??? Motherfucker??? His first words to Akutagawa after 4 years live in my head rent-free because you could have shown that you became a better person, but nope. Still a dick. "Oh, he did that to set up the rivalry with Atsushi," you know how Beast Dazai did that? Set them up on a date. Boom. Take notes.

I also personally think Dazai either doesn't get Akutagawa fr, or he simply doesn't care to do so because Akutagawa flourishes with encouragement, it's actually sort of insane to see. Anyways. Went on a tangent there.

So yeah, Dazai is annoying, his personality sucks, he's a manipulative bastard, and he is mean to my baby :(

[gloriousmonsters]

JGY dealing with SMS/QS would be hilarious though. In canon it was a pile of stress as he dealt with the pressures of society, illuminated by this person who he deeply cared about only for that bond to be twisted in the most horrific manner possible. Here it's his reliable friend whose nonetheless a tad uptight having a romcom plot with a Maniac Pixie Girl while he looks in bemused in the background as their antics interrupt the daily Game of Thrones scheming.

this does give me the mental image of the Guanyin Temple fiasco involving QS and SMS having the first (and what a time and occasion) Couples Fight while JGY tries to stand at a polite distance and ignore them while still managing the hostage situation. usually i feel like aside from SMS cutting evil research a bit short to hang out with his wife their relationship wouldn't impact JGY that much (aside from possibly giving him the BIGGEST sigh of dodged-the-bullet relief if he still thought QS was cute but eventually learned of their half-siblings status)

however in the realm of SMS/QS and funny shit that people have to deal with, I have to urge you all to consider the angle of Su Minshan's Incredibly Polite Wife. POV you're a sect leader who'd really prefer to follow the Lan's example and cold-shoulder SMS a bit, especially since he's sort of an asshole and maybe made a barely veiled implication that you're a weenie for not supporting the new watchtower program, but what's this? the health bar of SMS' Incredibly Polite (and even more importantly, Well-Born) Wife appears at the bottom of your vision. you've been cornered into a pleasant conversation about the weather. she introduces the idea of making an agreement with the Moling Su to support each other's night hunts. she is making firm eye contact. you try to evade her meeting arrangements and she just suggests another time that might work better for you and insists you give her a chance to show her hospitality. there's no way out. you cannot brush off Su Minshan's Incredibly Polite Wife.

she makes dinner plans with you and then heads off toward Lan Xichen. you swear you see a faint look of panic cross his face. JGY is watching her with what appears to be admiration and makes no move to help his sworn brother. the Moling Su has never had such good relations with its neighbors

[theyilinglaozus]

your gifset of jgy and wwx with the "no one bad is ever really bad" text is stunning, so smooth!!!!! how did you do the transition effect? (looks like ink in water as an overlay, maybe?)

Hi there! 💖

Firstly, thank you so much for your kind message!

The transition effect in the JGY and WWX set is another gif which was used, this one to be exact:

For the gifset, I enlarged the gif so it would fit the canvas in the way that I preferred and then sharped it until I was happy that the edges no longer looked blurry.

Before adding the gif effect to create the transition, I first made sure I had both scenes I wanted to use for the gif prepared. This included cropping, sharpening, and colouring, before converting each gif into a smart filter. The screen you should have before you apply the gif should look something like this, with the two gifs being the only thing in the timeline.

You're then going to want to introduce the gif overlay onto your gifset too. I, unfortunately, do not have this part saved in the .psd file I kept for this gif, however the tutorial I used to learn how this is done can be found here. It's very easy to follow and includes useful images for each step, as well as everything that I did to create this gif.

After following the above tutorial you should eventually end up with a timeline that has three layers, the first being the transitioning gif, the second being either a darkened or lightened layer underneath it, and the final layer being the second gif you've decided to use:

From there, add whatever remaining text or effects you want! Obviously for this gif, this was the finishing product:

[ouyangzizhensdad]

I'm reading through some of your meta and in the one about WWX possibly weaponizing MXY being gay you mention how MXY being a molester was fabricated. I agree with this but I always thought that this was a personal headcanon and didn't realize that it was supported by canon. If you're up to it, please may you point me to where it might say this?

Hi anon, 

I’m sad to report that there isn’t a scene where JGY admits before a jury that yes, it was I, I fabricated the claims against Mo Xuanyu, who was a hapless victim all along! which would be convenient for winning arguments quickly and easily. But, I promise you, so long as we read between the lines, it is undeniable that we are meant to understand by the end of the novel that the accusations leveled against Mo Xuanyu were baseless and that he was another victim of JGY’s (and NHS’s!) machinations.

Beyond a purely thematic reading of the novel, which would  therefore highlight  that the theme around how public opinion is willing to believe accusations and condemn without material or sensible proof (particularly so when it comes to people who do not hold a lot of power within society, those who are the Other) is one that is repeated across many characters, the narrative reveal of JGY’s true personality and actions indicates that the accusations against MXY were just  another ploy of JGY’s. 

At the very beginning of the novel, when WWX looks through Mo Xuanyu’s things, he’s able to piece out together that Mo Xuanyu’s “lunacy” seemed rooted in a deep and paranoiac fear of.... something. MXY didn’t just get thrown out of the Sect in disgrace--something clearly happened to him, or he clearly witnessed something that scared him out of his senses. 

“after he returned, he seemed to have gone completely mad—although no one could tell what kind of shock he’d suffered. He had good days and bad ones. It was as if he had been scared witless.” [Chapter 1]

Further into the novel, it is revealed that MXY didn’t actually harass his “peers” but actually only one person: Jin Guangyao. Right after this reveal, we also learn that MXY used to treat JGY with the utmost respect and deference. While Jin Ling seems to misunderstand this past deification of JGY as a side-effect of MXY’s presumed feelings for him, as readers we can see how it actually raises doubts into the claims leveraged against MXY, as it would then seem very out of character for MXY to disrespect JGY by harassing him (especially if one considers that the risks of harassing his powerful half-brother definitely would not outweigh the benefits....).

“Don’t listen to [JGY],” said Wei Wuxian. “Let me tell you—when you grow older, you’ll find out that there are more and more people you want to beat up, but you’ll have to force yourself to get along with them nicely. So, since you’re still young, go beat up all the people you want. At such an age, if you don’t have a few proper fights, your life won’t be complete.”

Jin Ling’s face betrayed faint yearning, yet he still sounded contemptuous, “What are you talking about? Shushu’s advice is for my own good.”

After he spoke, he suddenly remembered that the past Mo Xuanyu had always regarded Jin Guangyao as a deity. He definitely would not have disagreed with Jin Guangyao in any way. Yet, now he was saying not to listen to him. Was it that he really did not hold any improper thoughts toward Jin Guangyao anymore?

(we also learn that Zewu-jun never knew about what supposedly happened, or even who MXY was, which again.....fishy.... JGY what are you hiding...... not mentioning someone harassed you to your bff is one thing, but not introducing him to your half-bro?.... )

Then! Almost right after we learn all this new information, it is also revealed through WWX’s paperman adventures and NMJ’s adventures that JGY is not who he has presented himself to be: he is a master manipulator, who has lied and continues to lie to preserve his position and to eliminate people he perceives as threatening the place he carved for himself in sweat and tears and blood. 

At this point, the deal is pretty much sealed: we have an unreliable witness in the man we now know to be able to do incredibly scary and cruel things (a knowledge that will only be reinforced by the end of the novel once NHS’ plan is completed). What actually happened, how MXY went from someone who deified JGY to someone who would need to be sent away in disgrace and scared into silence and compliance, all this is not told to us by the novel. It is possible that JGY might have seen MXY as a potential accomplice to his deeds (like he did his other half-brother, XY) (EDIT: I DREAMED UP THAT XY was one of JGS’s bastard children, please disregard it), or that he might have seen MXY as a potential threat to his position because of they shared a father--honestly, I can see many possibilities here! 

Also, it is important to consider that even the claim of MXY’s “lunacy”  is pretty fraught and ambiguous. The novel ends up setting up the idea that MXY’s erratic behaviour was related to him being scared (as we see in the and frustrated at the injustice he received at the hands of both the Jin Sect and his family (for example, this piece of shino meta)

Finally, it’s a good time to remember that even MXY’s sacrifice was not a decision he made on his own: he was once again the victim of a mastermind with much more power and influence than he could ever dream to have. After all, the novel takes pain to explain to us that NHS’s schemes for revenge depended on MXY sacrificing himself (passage under the cut because this post is getting long!)

“Nie-zongzhu,” Wei Wuxian asked again. “I heard that you often travel between the Gusu Lan sect and the Lanling Jin sect, am I right?”

“That’s right.”

“Then did you really not recognize Mo Xuanyu?”

“Ah?” Nie Huaisang’s face twitched slightly. 

“I remember that the first time I met you after my soul had been offered into his body, you acted as if you did not recognize me, and even asked Hanguang-jun who I was. Mo Xuanyu was then entangled anyhow with Jin Guangyao during that time* and was able to access even his secret collections, and you often went to find Jin-zongzhu to complain. Even if you and Mo Xuanyu were not familiar with each other, did you really not see him before at all?”

Nie Huaisang scratched his head, saying, “Wei-xiong, Jinlintai is so huge, I can’t possibly recognize everyone, even if I’ve seen them, I can’t remember. Moreover…” 

Looking rather awkward, he continued, “You know about Mo Xuanyu’s identity back then, it’s slightly…...the Lanling Jin sect had tried their best to hide it, so it wouldn’t have been surprising if I had never met him before. Even Xichen-ge may not have met him before.”

“Oh, that’s true. Zewu-jun did not know who Mo Xuanyu was either.”

“Right! And what I don’t understand is, even if I had seen Mo Xuanyu before, why would I pretend not to recognize him? Was there such a need?”

Wei Wuxian laughed and replied, “Nothing much, I just thought it strange and was casually asking. 

However, he thought, He was simply trying to see whether the ‘Mo Xuanyu’ he met was the real one.

For someone who was said to have been cowardly and weak, where would have Mo Xuanyu gotten the courage to sacrifice himself and offer his soul?

And as for Chifeng-zun’s left hand, why was it discarded? It could not be that Jin Guangyao would accidentally lose it.

Moreover, why was it that it happened to appear right at the Mo family residence, just when Wei Wuxian had been reincarnated, but not somewhere else? 

If Chifeng-zun’s body had been buried by the QingheNie sect, would Nie Huaisang, who had always respected his older brother, not notice that his body had disappeared all these years?

Wei Wuxian was inclined to believe an alternative situation. 

[...]

As such, [NHS] thought of another person; Mo Xuanyu, who had just been kicked out of the Golden Pavilion. 

Perhaps in order to let Mo Xuanyu listen to him, Nie Huaisang had already spoken to him before and heard from an upset and anguished Mo Xuanyu that he had seen one of Jin Guangyao’s scrolls of forbidden spells recording a certain ancient demonic spell. He then took advantage of the Mo Xuanyu, who was then humiliated and bullied by his clan, to persuade him to perform the spell as revenge**. 

And which fierce corpse would he summon?

Naturally, he would summon the Yiling Patriarch.

Unable to bear the days of humiliation any longer, Mo Xuanyu finally drew the array, and Nie Huaisang also took the chance to throw out the hot potato that was burning his hand: ChiFeng-Zun’s left arm.

From there on, his plan had begun and he no longer had to spend his own time and energy to find Nie Mingjue’s remaining body, leaving the dangerous and troublesome job to Wei Wuxian and Lan Wangji. All he had to do was watch their actions closely. [Chapter 109]

*I changed the translation here, which originally said that “Mo Xuanyu was harassing Jin Guangyao” since I find (at least with my limited linguistic skills lmao) that the original is much more ambivalent. The clause is  莫玄羽当年好歹也纠缠过金光瑶, and the use of  好歹 signals to me toward ambivalence, which is further compounded by the fact that the verb  纠缠 does not necessarily translate to harassment. So I doubt that the original intent was to suggest that WWX was saying to NHS: shouldn’t you have known the dude who was harassing JGY? Anyone who knows Chinese more than I do is free to come and correct me if I am completely wrong in my assessment.

**Okay I changed the translation here again because the translation I was working with made it seem as if MXY was motivated by shame? but the original Chinese says  他便怂恿当时饱受族人欺辱的莫玄羽 which to me clearly points to his treatment by the Mo family/clan and to the fact that it was something being done unto him, not a state of mind he had. 

[colorisbyshe]

Previous anon here, I did not mean that WWX wasn't a victim but rather he wasn't a perfect victim like that in Untamed nor did I mean that JGY isn't a gross villain but I was rather commenting on how Untamed presents/introduceds things in contrast to the novel. Sorry if I come off as aggressive or rude 😅

Before I go on about how MDZS ends, I think it is important to talk about the worldbuilding, so cultivators are certainly the elite but their influence comes from the money collected by what is essentially ghost-hunting and protecting non cultivators from hauntings , they are not exactly feudal lords who rule over people or collect taxes but have areas of influence (I am mentioning this because a lot of people have misconceptions ) . So the position of cultivators in the society of MDZS is essentially that of a protector but of course they are pretty self absorbed and normal people are dissatisfied with them and we get to see their plights and complainints throughout the story .( I think it is difficult to get an idea about this by watching the Untamed where the sole focus is on the four great clans but nonetheless ). The ending of MDZS is bleak in the sense that it doesn't actually provide an exact solution as to how can the whole cultivation world be changed but it ends with WWX and LWJ removing themselves from the larger cultivation world and travelling the world, helping with ghost hauntings regardless of money and other stuff, basically working on cases the rest of the cultivation world doesn't do and ofcourse teaching the juniors. iirc the position of chief cultivator post canon doesn't exists as such as it was started by the Jins in the first place and they are shown to be pretty much doomed, there's certainly no mention of another chief cultivator

No, no, we're mostly on the same side! I'm saying even in both the OG text and CQL, I think both try to a make WWX as perfect a victim as they can. My point wasn't that you're saying JGY isn't gross or that WWX isn't a victim, rather that I think CQL and what I can tell about the OG text from the manhua... are more similar than you're maybe portraying. Like I think WWX still is a rather perfect victim even when he is the one to more directly kill everyone rather than it coming from JGY's meddling because his killing is justified.

And, yeah, I think the canon ending is a bit better than the one in the untamed buuut I also think it feels as much as a cheap dodge of providing a solution as the untamed does. Like... they're still fighting for justice on the small problem but it still seems like both are going "the institution itself cannot be fixed, so we'll just fuck off and do our own thing" whereas the untamed is like "the institution itself cannot be fixed, but maybe LWJ will reach immortal status and the liberal leader won't be too bad" and it's like... neither decide to like... overhaul the system?

I think in a lot of ways, the story comes up short on actually providing solutions. Which is fine, a story doesn't have to fix the world to be worth telling, but with "justice" being such a major theme in the story, the kind of lackluster solution is a bit *fart noise*

But at the end of the day I think I came to this story the most for good character building (which is present for the characters that matter but IMO was better in the untamed), good character dynamics (yup, in spades), and then I was surprised by pretty good themes, which it didn't always stick the landing on but did decently in at least invoking good parallels and very poetic statements.

[fidgeting]

I think people really struggle with the ideas that

You can behave abusively toward someone you love, and

Abusive people don't magically lose all character depth or cease to be three-dimensional human beings the moment they behave abusively.

It's indisputable that Jiang Cheng loves Jin Ling. He tries to give him Zidian to protect him during the second siege of the Burial Mounds. He offers himself up as a hostage to JGY in Jin Ling's stead, and must know he could die as a result. I think this tricks people into thinking everything about this relationship is fine and JC's communication style is just a little rough around the edges, but abuse is not determined by intent; it's based on behaviour patterns and effects of those behavior patterns.

It's made extremely clear in the narrative that Yu Ziyuan is JC's role model as to exert power as an adult, and this extends to his parenting style. If the attempted Zidian pass-off to Jin Ling--which JL rejects--doesn't make this obvious, IDK what would. YZY is also someone who had a very unenviable situation as the wife in an arranged marriage her husband was pressured into, who knows her husband doesn't love her. Her husband also brings another child into the family dynamic in a way that disrupts social protocol and potentially threatens the inheritance status of her own son, or at least presents that as a possibility. This information gives context and perspective to the way she behaves towards the people around her, but doesn't mean she doesn't abuse both JC and WWX.

Like his mother, JC verbally berates his nephew, frequently threatens JL with physical abuse (which is still an abusive action regardless of whether it's not followed up on), and pressures him into dangerous situations in order to earn his approval (i.e. the crowd hunt situation when JL is first introduced). It literally doesn't matter if JC doesn't mean to cause JL harm, or whether he genuinely thinks these are necessary parenting strategies for JL's long-term good, because these are still unacceptable ways to treat a child under your care.

People get really tripped up because we know exactly why JC acts this way, and we have a tremendous amount of empathy for him. We also see him engage in some similar behaviours earlier in his life to less negative effect--he talks about breaking WWX's legs when he's annoyed with him at Cloud Recesses, for example--but the context is very different, because WWX is not a literal child he is raising. It’s relevant that he never chose to be a primary caregiver of a young child, either, but took that result on as a side effect of a major personal trauma of his own. This is why rhetoric around abusers all inherently being Irredeemable Beings of Pure Evil can be harmful, IMO, because it becomes extremely difficult to recognize when you're receiving abusive treatment from someone you love when the complicated and frequently painful circumstances of their own life are known to you, and this extends beyond fandom discourse into the way we navigate relationships with others in real life.

None of this means you can't enjoy JC as a character, be interested in his relationship with JL, or even hope that they will be able to work out a more healthy relationship in the future--I do all three of these things. I just get very weirded out when I see people online talking about a dynamic like the one presented between those two as if there's such a thing as, like, tsundere parenting, and that it's good and normal. It's not!

Man not to be a downer but seeing so many ppl in this fandom who insist that jc was an excellent parent to jin ling makes me think that either y'all did not have parents anything like jc, or you did and you're trying to protect yourself from the reality that your parents kind of fucked up on some stuff