#yes this is about rhinedottir and skirk

[narwhalandchill]

also finished the 4.7 AQ and like . well firstly rip to all the sinner theories where it was like could it be nibelung or someone else and all like that was a bit tragic but thats the nature of theories i suppose. i do think it makes sense that the bigger players arent just all going to be figures we Already know of but yea.

overall i think it was like. quite good but also kinda suffers from the way these quests just Have to be an annual thing especially with how short it was? i saw a comment being like this feels like it shouldve been the epilogue to caribert and i kinda agree . also as much as it is appreciated that we Do get some direct answers to big lore questions in the quest was kind of a exposition dump in that sense . fade to black w the abyss sib and dain duel was certainly a Choice 💀

caribert truly is a sweetheart man i didnt expect him to pop up but i feel so bad for him now. except for the loomzoning atossa thing i get that he had no choice on the matter but that was rough for ur girl 😭😭

iiiiiii dunno how to feel about the whole we forget all about the reunion anyway when traveler Remembering as a descender has been established as such a core thing like it kinda feels like a copout im ngl . guess we are just now . aware of information as players that the traveler is not privy to . considering im already more than a little wary towards the general concept of like. memory erasure slash irminsul stuff when it comes to genshins writing im definitely feeling conflicted w this . also applies to the loom of fate editing reality thing . like okay on some level yes it is cool to include such prevalent elements of like. uncertainty and unreliable narration but in worst case those concepts are also v easy for a careless writing team to just. run off w and end up w a convoluted mess so i rly rly hope that wont end up the case

anyway. so the sinners are the big deal this time around i suppose and like. not that i wasnt necessarily expecting surtalogi to indeed be khaenriahn but the confirmation is certainly here now. no particular feelings on this from me im afraid bc like. Highly unpopular lore thing from me but both khaenriah n hexenzirkel (the latter more so than former) are kinda these. big lore topics and entities that i logically Do know and acknowledge as the massive deals they are to the story. but they just arent sth i have so far gotten that invested in altho khaenriah i have somewhat warmed up to . hexenzirkel still feels too much like an unnecessary presence to me lmao i might be missing out on stuff but if the abyss order arguably has a lack of story presence issue then the witches have it like 5 times worse 💀 But point being surtalogi being part of this whole crew of transcendent beings from khaenriah that became sinners is like . okay then isiskskskdk its not that big a deal for me

i think the most meaningful implications from that (in terms of My personal lore fixations at least *cough*) just have to do w like . sth id already been thinking about even before we got the confirmation of the visionary as the sinner that clothar found (which was a big theory anyway that i did personally find very compelling and well its canon now). and that is just the way that like . when skirk compared surtalogi as one in pursuit of "perfection" and brought up the visionary and rhinedottir as two ppl akin to him. that and the narzissenkreuz note about primordial human essentially being the synonym for descenders . & how rhines magnum opus was the primordial human PROJECT aka in light of this note. Very likely to be an attempt at Creating a descender . and how the sinners and abyss orders loom of fate is obviously just another pathway into accessing some sorta will or way to rival the world and defy the heavenly principles . became this thing where i was like 90% convinced and now 100% convinced that if the "perfection" both gold and the visionary pursue is indeed a descenders will in one form or another . then surtalogis aims Must involve the same fucking thing

which naturally gets us back to the insane ajax theory territory bc . if what connects those 3 (and post 4.7 more like. All the transcendent sinners from khaenriah) is getting to that world rivaling will. Then it sure fucking makes Everything surtalogi is doing and planning w both the narwhal and ajax Very Interesting . like it sure is curious that These would be the things surtalogi is occupying himself with if its indeed a descender he seeks . so like . Yeah we dont need to get into 3rd descender stuff but one thing i sure do think is becoming less and less like crackpot speculation and more and more and explicitly foreshadowed future direction for childes arc is that. one way or another. he is going to be involved with the subject of becoming a descender . bc like. if gold tried creating one w alchemy. and if the visionary is Literally creating a loom of fate to serve as the machine capable of weaving a worlds worth of leylines and destiny aka just a descender equivalent machine . then it sure wouldnt make sense for surtalogi to be putting all this heavy effort and resources (as skirk commented on) towards acquiring and possibly subduing an interstellar voyager like the narwhal and getting his student to look for and train the weird kid with a possibly innate connection w it. Without that serving a role in His brand of descender equivalency that hes seeking as a sinner. So yeah childe long term relevance stocks are definitely up w this one guys Trust

but yea thats on surtalogi for me . Point being its not rly a New suspicion for me (like ever since primordial human project started sounding like DIY descender lab project i was thinking this) but i think its been absolutely further affirmed by directly linking surtalogi to the sinners of khaenriah that more likely than not seem like theyre All going to be ppl who used the abyss to seek the power of a descender in a variety of ways???? so thats very neat . wonder who the other 2 will turn out to be then .

another thing to do w the sinners is also like. the way that if we do count dainsleif among them just as one that Didnt jusr abandon the ppl during the cataclysm . there is obviously that doomed number of Six there . so like pygmy theories have been going wild already in the few days it took me to catch up w the AQ but im just kinda . i Still think pale princess is most likely to be about an irminsuled event and be about sth far further back into the timeline than khaenriah and the cataclysm . theres things like rhe night mother specifically talking abt Thousands of years passing before the new hero (= 4th descender aka us most likely) appears to challenge her and also just the general way i still think pale princess aligns too much w the story of the seelie ancestor and her lover Not to be a story about that time period . so as much as the 5+1 sinners of khaenriah being the pygmies is like. Yes the numbers would finally add up clearly with no mental backflips needed unlike w the archons . but like all things considered im still a bit unconvinced. we shall see . that book is a menace anyway so its always gonna be a hot topic lmao like what is Up with it 💀

[sleepless-rants]

hi sleepless.!!!!! I was wondering if you had any theories on surtalogi & vedrfolnir’e identities? since going off etymology , we can only assume they’re from or connected khaneri’ah in some way,, 💜

OK OK heres a not so intellectual brainstorming (key word: BRAINSTORMING. THIS IS PURELY BRAINSTORMING so if you see me say something then contradict it in the same sentence dont be surprised). So about surtalogi

The actual norse mythology surtalogi is a flaming sword surtr used in the ragnarok which he will use to fight the gods and the flame from said sword will eventually burn down the whole world. Which has lead a lot of people to believe he might be dainsleif (yknow since they're both swords) but I personally dont think that that is the case for a few reasons:

1- skirk refers to surtalogi in the same light as rhinedottir, so we can assume he does something like her.

2- in some sources surtalogi is the fire itself not the sword so its kinda hit or miss

3- surtalogi is waist deep in abyssal power which we know dain is not the most fond of.

4: dainsleif and surtalogi are two seperate swords?? so this for me is kinda like saying durin and dvalin are the same because they're both dwarves in norse mythology.

Again I havent deep dived into this theory so let me know if im missing some additional information but I feel like trying to attach him to a pure blood khaenriahn we already know seems kinda easy (yes the "we need more khaenriah characters agenda")

Where I think we should really be looking to try to figure out surtalogi's identity isn't surtalogi itself but surtr. NOW, NOW LET ME COOK.

Surtr was a fire giant who ruled muspelheim (the fire realm in norse mythology) and lead the fire giants in a battle against the gods during ragnorok, eventually ending the world with his fire. Now surtr is also one of the primordial giants.

what do we associate dragons with? Fire. Battle with the gods? Dragon sovereigns. Primordial giants? Again, dragon sovereigns. It seems so perfect except this would be contradicting my own theory of irmin and nibelung being the same since irmin=odin and surtr is way older than odin. Also another thing: hoyo usually likes to name dragons after dwarves in norse mythology. In fact nibelung himself is a dwarf. Would it be symbolism for them to also use a giant for his refrence or would it be disqualifying this possibility?

Also its worth keeping in mind that in mythology, at the end of ragnarok surtr successfully defeated all the gods and burned down the world, which obviously did not happen with the sovereigns.

HOWEVER. the whole theme of burning down the old world to let a new, better world be born from the ashes very much reminds me of fatui shit, and more importantly PYRO ABYSS LECTOR VOICELINES.

So if nothing else we can say for certain that surtalogi is very much khaenri'ahn ideology. Its just very intresting how the character is specifically THE FIRE THAT BURNS THE WORLD not the WEILDER OF IT. maybe he had a hand in the catacalysm? IDK I NEED TO ORGANIZE MY THOUGHTS

Key points to keep in mind: 1) pay attention to surtr not surtalogi 2) surtalogi is the weapon not the culprit

NOW vedrfolnir. We literally only have a name. No i dont mean in genshin in mythology itself as well. There is barely anything. All we know is that vedrfolnir is a hawk who sits between the eyes of an eagle perched on top of yggdrasil (who is also unnamed btw)

One particular thing though is that the translations of the name often have something to do with wind. Immidietly I wanna associate this with istaroth which would kinda make sense since vedrfolnir is on top of yggdrasil (irminsul) and istaroth is the god of time irminsul records all events in time past present AND future since the fruits are irminsul contain people's fates etc etc

But then would hoyo really namedrop a primordial shade in the same sentence with two abyss power abusing sinners? Seems somewhat unlikely even with the sinshades theories+ the timeline doesnt add up+ its like two diffrent lore topics entirely. It doesnt help that theres literally nothing about the eagle either so if I have some scrambles thoughts for surtalogi for vedrfolnir I literally have no idea. But I do think two keypoints (only points i mean) to keep in mind are 1) irminsul association 2) wind themed name

[avemstella]

4.7 Dain quest spoilers (and some tangential fic related rambles)

I'm dying, even Dainsleif can't escape Genshin sibling drama. No one can escape pfft. Sorry, I love that he has a brother that fell to the dark side (this is not sarcasm, love some sibling drama), but it's just very funny to me.

And it's so bad, my immediate thought was 'how can I integrate this into smfwtwd's Khaenri'ah flashback side plot' pfft. I have put an embarrassing amount of thought into the complicated web of politics and personal drama that resulted in the fall of Khaenri'ah in my fic, that will be barely shown because this fic is mostly from Childe's perspective taking place 500 years after most of it happens. I'm a fool. But yes in all seriousness, Dain's bro is 100% going to exist in my fics universe, but probably won't play any major role (and certainly not the role he plays in canon). Maybe when we learn more about him I might find a role for him, but for the moment he's just been added to my increasingly convoluted family tree of Khaenri'ahns in my fic to look pretty pfft.

Okay enough of that, nice to know Skirk's master is confirmed Khaenri'ahn, meaning she is probably one too. And I'm super, super, super interested in the "sinner" squad. Dain's luck with friends has been abysmal (pun unintended pfft) hasn't it? Between them and the Abyss Sibling, everyone be betraying him lol. god theres something from my fic I want to ramble about but spoilers ahhhhhh

Dain was really sussy about the corruption they were exposed to and his own involvement... throwing an idea out there, I think Dain might be just as much of a sinner as they are. He just thinks he isn't, but his own mind can't be trusted. But thats just a theory haha. Regardless, its interesting that their group makes 6 (if we include Dain), considering the importance of the number 7 in this world... hmmmmm (or maybe it's just 5 lol).

Also, very curious if this will be an excuse to 'redeem' Rhinedottir (and everyone else but her in particular because of our history with her haha). Like she was corrupted when she did things like have Durin eat his brother and the like. Not sure how I feel about that, though I am also a terrible Rhine apologist anyways so hey pfft.

uhhhh I think thats all. Quest very good, endlessly sad about the tragedy of khaenri'ah.

[monards]

I didn’t expected you to be so happy to get my ask lmao

Anyway, in term of Skirk—I kinda can get over her design now because I like her personality, I’m more concerned about her role in the story tbh. I HOPE Surtalogi won’t diminish Skirk’s importance to the story

As for Rhinedottir, the one way to make the ‘she is not evil’ works is to just make her not evil in a Disney villains sense like—yes, she is not mustache twirling baddie who did bad thing for giggles but because she is selfish and want what’s best for herself, her nation and her in-groups

ii get excited over asks. what can i say, 💜

I can't even fight you for getting over Skirk's design, to be honest. Honestly, as much as I dislike Skirk's design; I know I will eventually get over it when we get more abyss lore. So hopefully!! Though I do still hope she gets an outfit change before she becomes playable, because I feel like they could definitely at the very least tweak it a bit!! (It is still by means a direct contrast to every expectation i had though. but i should probably have lowered my standards already considering hoyo is hoyo)

As excited as I also am for Surtalogi too- because woohoo, another faceless character to be excited for!!!- I also really hope he doesn't end up being used to outshine Skirk. Obviously, he's gonna be important considering he literally kept the all-devouring narwhal as a pet; and he's very obviously in some relation to khaneri'ah (I.E the norse etymology of his name) but if he ends up overshadowing skirk-- who we've literally been hyping up since childe's character stories. I will in fact be very disappointed in hoyo 😭😭

I also think you're right about the Rhinedottir villain idea!! I actually wouldn't be exceedingly angry over Rhine just being a horribly selfish person and that being a huge thing for her. I do feel like villains who do stuff "for the giggles" are never really treated right-- and if anything can be very unmotivated,,, and with hoyo's track record,,, I don't wanna risk that. Plus that absolutely makes sense-- She obviously has SOME driving force. And in chasing after that she's obviously disregarded the consequences of getting that goal, even if said consequence is literally the catacylsm. Her only concerns are probably maybe some of the hexenzirkel (I.E alice, who she clearly has some sort of affection for compared to anyone else), and maybe her remaining "perfect" creations.

[hellonoblesky]

Sometimes self-help is emotional attachment to characters who’ve only been mentioned