#yes Ukrainian nazism is real

[alsethwisson]

Nothing pains me just as badly as people here parroting obvious russophobic propaganda without an ounce of effort to analyse it or at least to understand that if what they are saying about Russia was said about pretty much any other nation they would be rightfully called out for racism and cultural posturing.

Especially prominent since Israel has started its openly genocidal campaign.

[villainessbian]

Oh I just saw such a collection of bad takes on the Russia-Ukraine war.

"It's a proxy for NATO vs Russia" obviously NATO will opportunistically move to its own interests, but also no NATO does not mean the USA and does not represent the USA's interests the way "NATO imperialism" always suggests (as when Putin says "the West" yenno), and also in this case NATO did not start shit, only Putin started shit on a non-NATO country so it takes some creative thinking to place NATO as an actual source of the conflict.

"Ukrainian nazis" come the fuck on. If you can understand that Putin has to rely on Wagner surely you can understand that Zelenskyy has to rely on already-formed and already-armed groups that would turn on him at a time he can't afford it? That's not tacit acceptance of nazism by Ukraine or NATO, that's the reality of "an armed battalion occupies this territory and they can hold on to it for me against the invader or shoot at me too". Stop falling for Putin's own propaganda for like, five minutes. No NATO is not "the good guys", but also no there's no "we'll side with nazis!!!!1!!" going on. It's just the fucking reality of war.

"it is the duty of every communist to block production that allows this war to continue" is the worst one yet, because if one side is paralysed everything stops plus or minus Putin and a few military leaders being taken out and/or tried for war crimes, but if the "other side" (supposing it's only NATO-led, which, lol, Ukraine is a real country remember?) is paralysed Ukraine gets destroyed, there's more fun stuff like ethnic cleansing and concentration camps because that's Putin's MO... and there is literally no way that both sides get paralysed (hint: the one most likely to suffer from efforts at sabotage by communists is not the one that wants to quite literally annihilate the neighbouring country)

And finally "the real victims are the working class" I think it's the dead people regardless of class actually. You are not more dead because you were working-class when they come to bomb your town

Yes it is important to call out the world powers that do wrong, yes it will remain important to pay attention to the glaring evils of capitalism and liberalism, but fuck it the moral position is not "point at everything that's bad as if it's equally bad". Some stuff is bad but has to be tolerated. Some stuff is worse than other stuff.

[ksenka-zarazka]

The New Yorker article looks at Ukrainian sentiments towards russians. while i am relieved about the crucial understanding of our rage (which really is the primary emotion for us right now along with numbness), i caught a worry along the lines of different accounts - a worry for Ukrainians turning into real life nazis by just hating a little too much. a worry that one group demands to exclude another bigger group from public access altogether (btw russia brilliantly executes it on its own).

speaking for myself and believing to possess such a wonderful thing as critical thinking, i am inclined to argue we Ukrainians will have a more important business to do after the victory. we will have to rebuild, recreate, conserve and add in. maybe you don’t want to catch us looking at you sideways for shaking hands with russians just a little too quickly?

i’m not saying we cannot be touched by a disease called nazism - everybody can. and yes, russians are the ones to blame for a decade worth development’s destruction. are they going to answer for it though? hell no, you won’t let them and they won’t be keen to take responsibility. so if you’re talking about revanchism, we’re not the guys you’re referring to.

“This isn’t just ‘Putin’s war.’ It reflects centuries of Russian culture and social attitudes. Russian culture and society is totally invested in this war. So, yes, in that sense, it’s a war of all that is Russian.”

I would also like to note on the word "neliudy" mentioned in this article. It is not quite correct to translate it as the "direct" translation "non-humans". It's a word that exists both in Ukrainian and russian languages and is specifically used in the meaning of someone "inhumanly cruel", "inhumanly evil".

[ohsalome]

i just can't fucking process how ukraine is being held by the west to some higher standard when it comes to proving crimes happening to ukrainians. people's stories, photos, videos - everything must be hard proven true or is by default fake, they definitely just did that themselves. someone was raped, there is testimony of the victim and there are marks on their body, what more can you actually do to prove it?!?? what more do ukraninans have to do when westerners don't believe those, do they need someone to be shot right in front of their eyes or would they still argue whether it was real. meanwhile russia says that ukraine is basically made of nazis, and west eats it up with no question whatsoever

I remember after Zelensky's adress to the American parliament some congressman complained that he came in wearing a military t-shirt and not a tie&suit. One of the online comments I liked said something among the lines "Not only Zelensky was right for his wardrobe choices, he should have walked in the room carrying Shoygu's severed head"

Jokes aside, yes, I think seeing first-hand the bloodbath russians have left on our lands will be an effective wake-up call for many. It is no coincedence that Ukraine's admission to EU was once more sped up after Ursula von der Leyen's visit of Bucha. So, not necessarily people shot in front of their eyes; but western journalists, ambassadors and politicians should be obligated to visit the liberated towns. Many are returning to Kyiv - this is a ripe opportunity for us.

Plus, there is a psy-op side of the question. "Nazi" is a very emotionally charged word; after the horrors of WW2 many people have a kneejerk reaction to such accusations (which was significantly reinforced by the rise of antifa discourse over the last few years). However, if we accuse russians of nazism in retortion, it turns into a childish "you did - no you did" argument, to which westerners respond with "both sides are wrong".

And, obviously, money, money, money. russians have been channelling billions of dollars into western think tanks for a reason.

[inqilabi]

sorry maybe i misunderstood but in one of your posts when you said "Stalin and Mao killed millions" was propaganda, what did you mean? like did you mean Stalin's repressions/purges/ethnic clensings weren't real or...?? cos i'm Russian and there's hardly a family here that wasn't affected by that, including my own. It's all still in living ppls memory, it's not something we're just told by the government lmao. It's actually extremely insulting to suggest otherwise. Like literally ask a person from an ex-USSR country and 9 times out of 10 they'll tell you of an ancestor/relative that was executed/sent to gulag/forced to flee the country/etc during Stalin's rule. Esp if you ask a jewish or other ethnic minority person.

Not sure if you’re genuinely interested in the perspective, if so I can provide resource reccs. I don’t think it’s insulting to ask people to consider that the history they have known may be entirely wrong and to question the common narrative/claims they hear. 

Especially considering the fact that CIA was literally created to fight USSR first and foremost, and then any other emerging socialist states thereafter. And the fact that Britain had been at it long before that. The Allies literally supplied troops for the ‘White Army’ to as Churchill put it “strangle the [Bolshevik state] at its birth” in 1917/1918. Formation of NATO itself is an alliance of capitalist anti-communist states. Not to mention that post WW2, when CIA formed, it absorbed existing Nazi and fascists into its CIA & NATO operations to terrorize any leftists orgs in Eastern Europe (Operation Gladio) because of how great they were at terrorizing, infiltrating and sabotage. And in the USA itself, Ukrainian fascists were incorporated into various intelligence orgs. A NSC directive (4A, 1947) stated the following: 

The campaign against the Soviets would include “primarily media related activities, including unattributed publications, forgeries, and subsidization of publications. Political action would involve exploitation of displaced persons and defectors, and support to political parties’ paramilitary activities, including support to guerillas and sabotage”

It is in this context that I understand the USSR. I may have criticisms of the CPSU, though it wouldn’t matter now. For us now, even though the exact conditions that the USSR faced will not be repeated again- I think it is necessary to learn from the successes and failures of the first socialist state founded amidst WW1, fall of Tsarist rule/semi feudalism/civil war, rise of Nazism and being surrounded by fascists, WW2 in which America & Britain both directly and indirectly let Germany destroy USSR as much as possible before getting involved, and the USSR was also dealing with a Japanese invasion threat in the east. To me its a feat that the people rallied behind its foundation, that there was fervor of the masses at that time- I can’t imagine it today. There were nearly 2 million party members in 1930. Some 3-4 million people enrolled to take classes with the communist party in 1933.

Yes the repressions, Yezhovshchina & reallocation of people were real. Repressions of the Kulaks and other class enemies was real. And to define class enemy, the kulak case is an interesting one: we’re talking about a class who regularly exploited peasants, & when a drought reduced the grain harvest, raised grain prices so the soviet government couldn’t afford to buy the grain to feed people (and this is where the rationing came from). The government in response encouraged peasants to form collective farms (kolkhoz), which was actually a youth peasant movement and grain harvest from these kolkhoz was soon as much as the kulaks. The kulaks then realizing that they can no longer control the markets, started murdering people in these kolkhoz. And this is the point where the Soviet gov decided to seize the kulak wheat, expropriate kulak land (dekulakization program as is known in the west) & give the land to the kolkhoz. In response, the kulaks burned their wheat, and killed their own livestock in the millions.  And despite this, most of them were only exiled, forced to reallocate or sent to the gulags. Also, forced reallocation of probably millions of people from the east to prevent Japanese invasion, and from the western region as Germany was invading did happen. 

Yezhovshchina of 1937-1938 was excessive. Here they replaced their normal voting process (e.g, Trotskyites were voted out with a vote of 700,000 against to 6000 for) with a 3 person tribunal who just handed out sentences like candy- in this period alone, I think there was some 300,000 sentences handed out. Though they were responding to Nazi infiltration among their party. Eventually the party committees got a handle of it, overturned half of the sentences. Many of the remaining sentences were never carried out because there wasn’t that much infrastructure to do so. But certainly innocent people were caught in the cross fire here. But imo the typical perception in the west that this purge was to eliminate any political opponents or to consolidate power is not true. It was primarily to eliminate Nazis in the party and any other counter-revolutionary who would have essentially handed USSR to Germany. There were definitely executions. There’s a quote from Ludo Martens on his study of the USSR that indicates a bit how unequipped USSR was to handle sentences of Yezhovshchina:

"Grigorenko, a well-known Rightist general who defected to the West, stated that, to escape the Purge, it suffice to simply relocate to another city."

There’s also interesting notes from Hitler (via Goebbel’s journal)and Churchill’s WW2 memoir that Hitler had hoped to take advantage of these antagonisms, defeatist tendencies and fascists sympathizers within the Red Army, but Stalin had succeeded in making sure via purges that the Red Army could not be taken advantage of.

But to address what is actually your main point: to assess history based on lived experience. What you stated is not reconcilable with the following examples:

Frankly I think the further breakdown of the 35+ would yield even more interesting insights. Also its expectedly low in Lithuania, Estonia & Latvia. What do we know about the history of these three countries that would help us understand that? There’s also this interview and this one specially about Stalin & the gulags, which sounds different from the experiences of your family.

Here is a quote from Ludo Martens book:

‘But how is it possible', asked a friend, `to defend a man like Stalin?' There was astonishment and indignation in this question, which reminded me of what an old Communist worker once told me. He spoke to me of the year 1956, when Khrushchev read his famous Secret Report. Powerful debates took place within the Communist Party. During one of these confrontations, an elderly Communist woman, from a Jewish Communist family, who lost two children during the war and whose family in Poland was exterminated, cried out:

`How can we not support Stalin, who built socialism, who defeated fascism, who incarnated all our hopes?'

And also, Normal Finkelstein stated that his parents, both of whom survived concentration camps, would refuse to listen to any criticism of Stalin and called anyone who criticized him a traitor. 

So how do we parse through these different lived experiences? What helps us understand the differences in these lived experiences? 

[minisoc]

first I'll just respond to all your points, so we can see why we have a different outlook. then if you want to focus on one let me know or dm me.

the United States started the war. yes, there is no real excuse for Russia invading, but the US still is ultimately responsible. the picture of innocent Ukraine and aggressive Russia is wartime propaganda.

"putin made that up" is just ridiculous, you have to stop thinking of conflicts the way western media portrays them. and it's of course an extremely well documented fact that Ukraine is full of nazis, probably more than any country on earth. that's also the west's fault.

i don't think Russian policies are relevant but i am compelled to point out that authoritarian is not a real word.

zelensky is not a nazi but nonetheless Ukraine is full of nazis. they've banned all opposition parties, they've integrated neonazis into the military, they've passed laws honoring nazi collaborators from ww2, and they've abolished anything soviet, which you might be skeptical about but is actually a sign of fascism as well. this nazism is anti communist and anti semitic of course but it is also virulently anti Russian. so the Russian language, Russian culture and history and of course Russian speakers are all in danger in Ukraine.

i think the point about putin making things up is probably the worst here because most of the rest we can resolve empirically. but if you've got this western, mainly American cartoon view of the world you'll never be able to understand it. putin didn't choose the war or make up things just bc he wants to eat Ukrainian babies or whatever, Russia sent troops into Ukraine bc the entire Russian government and military decided on it.

Being both pro-Ukraine and pro-Israel are fundamentally incoherent positions, as is being both pro-Russia and pro-Palestine.

The conflicts aren't identical obviously, but why condemn one instance of violent encroachment onto a state/territory but not another?

What Russia is doing is imperialism, even if it's not western; and what Israel is doing is ethnonationalist Apartheid, even if the beneficiaries are a group that has been oppressed before.

[nikolaystarkov]

Ukrainian refugees, what awaits Europe?

Some refugees who have moved from Ukraine to Europe have decided that in a foreign land they will be able to feel like real Europeans with all the rights and benefits of EU citizens. The behavior of Ukrainians on the territory of other states leaves much to be desired, they opened up to the owners from an unexpected side.

Instead of gratitude for providing shelter, EU residents faced undisguised aggression, rudeness and were disappointed in their own hospitality. Migrants force locals to speak Ukrainian and behave extremely unkindly.

It would seem that after arriving in Europe, which fed the sufferers, provided them with warmth and shelter, refugees should treat the local population with respect and gratitude. However, information about incidents related to the outrages of newly minted "Europeans" is increasingly appearing on the Web.

Residents of Moldova were among the first to encounter uncultured behavior of guests. They tell how the arrivals shout Nazi slogans and attack people if they talk to them in Russian:

"Of the 100% of people who have come to us, 30%, I want to say: welcome, I am very glad that my Moldovan people can provide you with help and security. The remaining 70% are devils with the faces of angels who walk, fight, rebel, attack staff in restaurants, shout "Glory to Ukraine," a volunteer from Chisinau writes on his Facebook page.

Bulgaria has not escaped the fate of Moldova. Nationalists force Bulgarians to speak to them in Ukrainian, although they do not know it and try to speak Russian. Many demand that the host country provide them with five-star hotels and luxury accommodation, criticize the food and paint Nazi symbols on the walls.

One of the most resonant cases occurred in Hamburg, Germany. Local residents have published a video with a bus park destroyed by rampaging guests. And there are already more than a dozen such incidents.

The Czech Republic also suffered from Ukrainians. The Russian-speaking population there has repeatedly faced attacks on a national basis. "Refugees have collected 2.4 billion kronor in aid, and they turn their noses away from blankets, clothes, because they are not branded. And from food, because it's canned food. Many people drive around in personal cars and buy iPhones. And there are also a lot of unvaccinated with basic drugs. They are given apartments, and young Czech families have been waiting for them for several years and still can't get them," local residents are outraged. "The violent Ukrainians are aggressive, many of them are probably criminals who are trying to escape from justice. These are people of military age who should fight in the ranks of the Ukrainian army."

Social networks write about how nationalists insult everyone who speaks Russian, and in some cases use physical violence. "At first, their behavior in principle did not stand out. Yes, there were crooked angry glances, there were some silent ones. A few days later, the situation changed dramatically. We relaxed and felt like bars. Everyone must, everyone must. I was spat at by a friend for saying "please" in Russian. It's a pity for the indigenous people who are watching this," add tourists currently vacationing in the Czech Republic.

The events in Europe have attracted the attention of the whole world. In connection with the ongoing incidents and the behavior of refugees in the EU countries, Jerusalem canceled the visa-free regime with Kiev and limited the quota for accepting migrants to 5,000 people. One of the reasons was a massive anti-government rally, which was attended by Ukrainians living in Tel Aviv.

Ordinary residents of EU countries are reaping the benefits of their own authorities, who support the escalation of the conflict in Ukraine. After all, it was the Kiev regime that raised nationalists. School programs, summer camps, student courses – everything is saturated with the glorification of Nazism and the superiority of the Ukrainian nation. Now the people of Europe are paying for the mistakes of their leaders, who unconditionally approve of any anti-Russian antics of Kiev.

If now the EU authorities do not understand what their intervention in the conflict in Ukraine has led to, then soon their compatriots will face an increase in crime and a split in society, and in the foreseeable future ghettos populated by angry Ukrainians will appear on the territory of European countries.

Refugees will still make a stir in Europe.

[feldwebelkatze]

Erm... alright, so I think that there are questions that I need to give you the answers, right now:

1. I'm not a Russian, but a Vietnamese, living right in my homeland Viet Nam

2. You need proofs showing that the "comedian" (also his predecessor, Poroshenko) had the neo-Nazis slaughtering innocent people? Alright, I had 'em 'ere:

(I got these documents from my friends, who's a freelanced journalist in Ukraine)

3. Did I say that you're one of the Nazis Miss? I said that they belong to the Azov and Bandera battalions, NOT you guys, remember that

4. The "world" you're mentioned 'ere, who's at the Nazis' side, as far as I can see, might be just the Americans, as well as members of the NATO, EU (all are marked with yellow color), not the whole world we're living in. All remains don't take that seriously. Just take a look again Miss

5. The Azov and Bandera, in fact, had done this right after the Euromaidan in 2014, not 'til now, and it started from the large-scaled destruction of the Soviet heritage in your country, and mass slaughter on people in Donbass (2016), Donetsk, Luhansk, Mariupol (this year), just like in WW2. But maybe you didn't know 'bout this before, cuz your far-right gov had ordered the media to sweep these crimes under the carpet, not to let you guys know 'bout 'em

(here's another footage of an Ukrainian, just like you, on his way to Mariupol, to run away from the Azovs

... as well as another one, my journalist friend had got. An innocent man has been brutally killed by the Nazis, just cuz they suspected that he's a Russian spy)

6. And finally, I said again, yes, right now neo-facism is represented by Poroshenko, Zelenskiy the Azov, Bandera battalions, NOT you guys. You guys are just simple completely fooled and being their victims, that's all I wanna say. And yes, all real Ukrainians are against the Nazism, I believe that

That's why I think, now it's time for you guys to know who's your real enemies. They're not the Russians, but the Nazis who's fooled you guys 'til now. Seriously

Hi there!

My country is on fire now

Many cities of Ukraine are being shelled by the invaders, some places have been captured by the enemy army. Innocent people are dying here, children including. Many houses, hospitals, kindergartens are being destroyed by occupation forces. Enemies surround the city of Kyiv and want to capture our capital whatever it takes.

Me, my family, my loved ones, my countrymen, all of us are  scared… I can’t sleep, I can’t concentrate for anything… The enemy comes closest to my home with every passing minute. I’m terrified.

I don’t know what will happen in an hour, tomorrow, in a week…  However, with all my heart I’m thankful for everyone who supports me. 

Thank you for supporting me on patreon, thank you for words of encouragement. It mean a lot to me ❤️

I’ll try to make some CC for you as long as there is a possibility. When I create it makes me feel a little better

[minisoc]

well this was a head in the sand response but I'll give you one more reply, in the same format

tankees are not real. tankey is what you call someone when you don't want to have to engage with their ideas, it's a projection of insecurity. you need to categorize me so you can dismiss me.

nobody has ever approached politics by merely opposing whatever the US is doing. this is a way of you telling me what my politics are so you can more easily defeat my arguments, aka a straw man argument. if you can simply tell me that I'm very silly in the way i think, you can feel superior and not worry about losing any argument or feeling embarrassed.

Ukraine is full of nazis. full of as in you can't visit any military position without finding many of them. not only azov. Ukraine's "bad policies" of ethnic cleansing are themselves evidence of Ukrainian nazism. the entire country is rabidly anti Russian and no, that is not excused by the war. it predates the war by two decades. they've put up statues to bandera and they declared him an official national hero. bandera worked with the nazis to perpetrate the Holocaust in Ukraine, making him a national hero makes Ukraine a nazi aligned state.

you again have identified all of Russia with putin and have replaced any Russian interests or analyses with putins opinions or whims. this is what western propaganda specializes in, creating an individual for you to hate as representation of western imperial policy. you really don't know anything about putin, and i myself know only a little more than that. we can't read minds.

it is nonsensical on the face of it too suggest that putin personally invaded Russia bc he wants to, and just as ridiculous to think he talked about Ukrainian nazism to placate western leftists, the least important bloc anywhere. once the invasion started, the Russians knew they had lost any chance at winning the PR war. Americans have gone nuts with supporting this proxy war.

the rhetoric about nazism in Ukraine was first of all true, but secondly it was aimed more at Russians to gain their support. they've heard about the ukrainian treatment of ethnic Russians since 2014, over 14,000 people have died in that conflict and it's been easy for people around the world to watch the rise of Ukrainian nazism, the statements made by Ukrainian leaders, and most importantly the reality of bombing and death. talking about fighting against this gains support from Russians who have been horrified this whole time. it wasn't for you or i at all.

of course Russia is not socialist or progressive, but you simply accepted what you were told about Russia's motivations. no, they have no interest in building a new Soviet Union or being an empire, these are emotions and states run on realities. there's plenty of documentation on why Russia invaded, I'll be happy to share some with you or you can view my Russia tag.

putin didn't only talk about Ukrainian nazism btw and if you're interested in how honest he's being personally i think you should start by reading his speeches directly and not reading summaries of them by western media.

I'll avoid being offended that you said I'm "blindly" reading any country propaganda, given that's what you're evidently doing. yes, Russian media will tend to portray things from a Russian perspective and therefore more favorable to their interests, but i don't merely do the opposite of you and read and believe Russian media. i read lots of media. but i also have the knowledge and connections to be able to judge these media as well. everything you've said so far can be found in western media so take your own criticism, here.

at the end you try to summarize mainly by insulting me and making an emotional appeal for why you shouldn't have to revisit your views. first you say Russia is "slaughtering" people in Ukraine, well, that's a very loaded word. Russians and ukrainians are both dying and so can't we also say ukrainians are "slaughtering" Russians? the fact is that many are dying on both sides and we've both already agreed the socialist position is to call for an end to war. then you say i either have to accept your position, which is basically the NATO position, or else I'm doing "mental gymnastics". well, that's just a way of saying you think I'm wrong but without explaining. it's a dismissal - your views are nuanced fact and mine are gymnastics. it's that same insecurity about your ideas. in fact i know this situation a lot better than you and I'm giving you feedback for free on what adult practicing socialists really think about the war in Ukraine.

Being both pro-Ukraine and pro-Israel are fundamentally incoherent positions, as is being both pro-Russia and pro-Palestine.

The conflicts aren't identical obviously, but why condemn one instance of violent encroachment onto a state/territory but not another?

What Russia is doing is imperialism, even if it's not western; and what Israel is doing is ethnonationalist Apartheid, even if the beneficiaries are a group that has been oppressed before.