#yeah it's about that hamlet post

[valley-of-the-lost]

personally i don’t appreciate feeling scolded for something i can’t actually change

[hamletthedane]

Hamlet’s Age

Not to bring up an age-old debate that doesn’t even matter, but I have been thinking recently how interesting Hamlet’s age is both in-text and as meta-text.

To summarize a whole lot of discussion, we basically only have the following clues as to Hamlet’s age:

Hamlet and Horatio are both college students at Wittenberg. In Early Modern/Late Renaissance Europe, noble boys typically began their university education at 14 and usually completed at their Bachelor’s degree by 18 or 19. However, they may have been studying for their Master’s degrees, which was typically awarded by age 25 at the latest. For reference, contemporary Kit Marlowe was a pretty late bloomer who received a bachelor’s degree at 20 and a master’s degree at 23.

Hamlet is AGGRESSIVELY described as a “youth” by many different characters - I believe more than any other male shakespeare character (other than 16yo Romeo). While usage could vary, Shakespeare tended to use “youth” to mean a man in his late teens/very early 20s (actually, he mostly uses it to describe beardless ‘men’ who are actually crossdressing women - likely literally played by young men in their late teens)

King Hamlet is old enough to be grey-haired, but Queen Gertrude is young enough to have additional children (or so Hamlet strongly implies)

Hamlet talks about plucking out the hairs of his beard, so he is old enough to at least theoretically have a beard

In the folio version, the gravedigger says he became a gravedigger the day of Hamlet’s birth, and that he’s be “sixteene here, man and boy, thirty years.” However, it’s unclear if “sixteene” means “sixteen” or “sexton” (ie has he worked here for 16 years but is 30 years old, or has he been sexton there for thirty years?)

Hamlet knew Yorick as a young child, and the gravedigger says Yorick was buried 23 years ago. However, the first quarto version version of Hamlet says “dozen years” instead of “three and twenty.” This suggests the line changed over time. (Or that the bad quarto sucks - I really need to make that post about it, huh…)

Yorick is a skull, and according to the gravedigger’s expertise, he has thus been dead for at least 7-8 years - implying Hamlet is at least ~15yo if he remembers Yorick from his childhood

One important thing sometimes overlooked - Claudius takes the throne at King Hamlet’s death, not Prince Hamlet. That is mostly a commentary on English and French monarchist politics at the time, but it is strange within the internal text. A thirty year old Hamlet presumably would have become the new monarch, not the married-in uncle (unless Gertrude is the vehicle through which the crown passes a la Mary I/Phillip II - certainly food for thought)

Honestly, Hamlet is SO aggressively described as being very young that I’m fairly confident the in-text intention is to have him be around 18-23yo. Placing his age at 30yo simply does not make much sense in the context of his descriptors, his narrative role, and his status as a university student.

However, it doesn’t really matter what the “right” answer is, because the confusion itself is what makes the gravedigger scene so interesting and metatextual. We can basically assume one of the following, given the folio text:

Hamlet really is meant to be 30yo, and that was supposed to surprise or imply something to the contemporary audience that is now lost to us

Older actors were playing Hamlet by the time the folio was written down, and the gravedigger’s description was an in-text justification of the seeming disconnect between age of actor and description of “youth”

Older actors were playing Hamlet by the time the folio was set down, and the gravedigger’s description was an in-text JOKE making fun of the fact that a 30-something year old is playing a high-school aged boy. This makes sense, as the gravedigger is a clown and Hamlet is a play that constantly pokes fun at its own tropes and breaks the fourth wall for its audience

The gravedigger cannot count or remember how old he is, and that’s the joke (this is the most common modern interpretation whenever the line isn’t otherwise played straight). If the clown was, for example, particularly old, those lines would be very funny

Any way you look at it, I believe something is echoing there. It seems like this is one of the many moments in Hamlet where you catch a glimpse of some contemporary in-joke about theater and theater culture* that we can only try to parse out from limited context 430 years later. And honestly, that’s so interesting and cool.

*(My other favorite example of this is when Hamlet asks Polonius about what it was like to play Julius Caesar in an exchange that pokes fun of Polonius’ actor a little. This is clearly an inside-joke directed at Globe regulars - the actor who played Polonius must have also played Julius Caesar in Shakespeare’s play, and been very well reviewed. Hamlet’s joke about Brutus also implies the actor who played Brutus is one of the main cast in Hamlet - possibly even the prince himself, depending on how the line is read).

[justastrugglinghotchocolate]

So like a year ago, I made a post asking why Dorian confessed to murdering Basil in the 1891 edition of the book, but not the 1890. For the last few months, while working on tlg and the comic, I’ve on and off again worked on a small animatic for the ending of TPODG. Because of this I’ve had to reread the ending conversation with Henry again and again. And a thought occurred to me:

Is Dorian’s ‘desire to be good’ actually an attempt to stop being objectified?

Dorian’s ‘desire to be good’ is obviously horseshit, even to himself, but why does he do it? "To feel something new" is a lazy explanation especially when the book literally says that “[h]e felt a wild longing for the unstained purity of his boyhood”. He doesn’t want something new, he wants what he had before. But it’s not the innocence of his youth, nor something material he desires—it’s the way people treated him before Henry and Basil.

The thing that always stood out to me was this exchange (occuring after Dorian’s confession): 

“There is someone at White’s who wants immensely to know you—young Lord Poole, Bournemouth’s eldest son. He has already copied your neckties, and has begged me to introduce him to you. He is quite delightful and rather reminds me of you.”

“I hope not,” said Dorian with a sad look in his eyes.”

While many modern adaptations either forget this line or give a charitable reading, to me it reads as though Dorian realizes he’s replaceable. Even though he has a magic portrait and eternal youth, he still is a dying relic of a changing world. He will never be anything more than the innocent, youthful doll society and Henry treated him as.

His confession, to Henry of all people, was a final plea to be seen as more than the dumb youth, as an innocent angel—he is begging Henry to look at him and see that Dorian Gray is a person. That he feels more than youth, or beauty, or idolatry. That he is capable of great violence and even greater crime, like any other man and through that can be capable of evolving with the time like any other. He doesn't want to live as a passing fancy of perverts and naive young people.

But Henry breaks all of that in one simple line:

“You and I are what we are, and will be what we will be.”

But, Lord Henry was never going to see Dorian as a real person. Because Henry himself isn’t real. ‘Lord Henry’ is a role he plays, one that consumed him far before the first chapter. In many ways, his cynical philosophy is his own defective portrait. He hides any semblance of a person in his role of ‘cynical hedonist’ and denies any change. He too is a dying relic of a changing world.

When Henry denies his attempt to change, Dorian seeks Basil’s portrait of him. I think it's quite telling that even after he murder him, Dorian seeks implicit comfort from the man who had idolized his rose-white purity. Basil was the only relationship that was closest to what he had before. But the sad truth is laid bare:

No one ever saw Dorian Gray as a real person. 

He was always a role being played. 

And he dies tragically discarded.

[vellichorsdesire]

masc term likers imagine your f/o reading classics for whatever reason, maybe they just want to catch up on them or just found the book recently and found it interesting i don’t know. but as you’re trying not to disturb their reading session and wish them a quick good night, they just absentmindedly make a reference to one of their books saying “good night, sweet prince.” either with their usual tone of voice or in a silly fancy kind and it makes you freeze on the spot or makes you drop to your knees on the floor immediately, killing you

[thehamletdiaries]

After watching this production of Hamlet, I, of course, made my way over to Stratford-Upon-Avon's Hamlet statue and just hung out with him for a while (and brushed all the cobwebs and spiderwebs off him).

There was something about this moment...having just watched a production of Hamlet where the Hamlet actor, well, wasn't Hamlet..going to this statue that very much is Hamlet and feeling like "oh, there you are".

[canisbeasts-ooc]

Calrie and Andras

A culler goldblood and her new, recovering charge who is very obsessed with troll hamlet

[flowercrown-bard]

from now on whenever i struggle to figure out what happens next in my writing I'll add [enter pirates of plot convenience] as a place holder

[merlions]

Im terribly sorry to report that I am having Hamlet Thoughts again :/

It is possible I have said this all before maybe several times. But!

Why is everyone so judgy of Hamlet!!! It feels like when people were all "wait Romeo and Juliet makes sense if you remember they were fuckin TEENS" but the same justice has not been granted my good boy Small Ham??

Well Hamlet:

Was also a teen!

With a recently dead dad!

Found out his mother married his uncle.

Found out his UNCLE MURDERED HIS FATHER.

Noticed no one cared! No one even knew, really? So he couldn't really do anything about it cause now this guy is the king??

Was commanded by the ghost of his dead father to murder that guy!

Does NOT want to commit murder!!! I cannot stress enough how much Hamlet's whole entire arc is him just making up excuses to stall because he can't think of a way around having to kill Claudius but he just! Does! Not! Want! To!

"OK the only real evidence I even have of this is a literal ghost and however much faith I have in my own judgement. So like. Maybe I should fact check that before I murder a possibly innocent guy in cold blood?"

Is a nervous wreck!! "He's pretending he was driven mad by grief, he's not actually mentally unwell" he's literally contemplating suicide, he did a whole long soliloquy about it. Y'know, the one that goes like, "To be or not to be"? It was this whole thing idk, I thought it was pretty memorable but maybe that's just me

"Hey mom maybe we should like not hang around that guy he seems like he's maybe bad news-oh FUCK he's literally spying on me saying this to you, hes gonna kill me SHIT" *stabs randomly at curtain*

ACCIDENTALLY KILLS HIS GIRLFRIEND'S DAD

CAUSES HER THE SAME MADNESS BY GRIEF HE'S [only half] PRETENDING TO BE AFFLICTED BY

NOT GOOD. THE SITUATION IS NOT IDEAL

Does this fuckin play he was stalling on to try to at least get Claudius to say something about it, like truly can we salvage something out of this

NOPE

CLAUDIUS GETS A GUY TO ATTEMPT MURDER ON HAMLET BY POISONING HIS BLADE IN A DUEL

GETS IMPATIENT AND TRIES TO KILL HIM WITH MORE, OTHER POISON

HAMLETS MOM DRINKS THAT POISON TO KEEP HAMLET FROM DRINKING IT

THE GUY COERCED TO KILL HAMLET THEN SUCCESSFULLY POISONS HIM

HAMLET POISONS HIM RIGHT BACK

CLAUDIUS DRINKS MORE POISON ON PURPOSE

EVERYONE IS NOW DEAD

???????

HOW IS THIS ALL HAMLET'S FAULT

"If hamlet had done the murder at the start he wouldn't have cost several other random people their lives including himself, hes so terrible and indecisive" LISTEN

First of all. I wonder if maybe the guy who actually did the murder and stole the crown and then directly caused death to most of those other dead people - I wonder if he might be partly responsible? For a few of those people dying. I wonder if King Claudius of Denmark might share some of the blame for some of those people that got dead directly and accidentally by his hand. (Now thicker than itself with brother's, wife's, son's, son's girlfriend's brother's, and arguably son's girlfriend's father's blood! Starting to doubt there IS rain enough in the sweet heavens to wash it white as snow actually. That's a lot of blood)

Also Hamlet is 17? Why was it HIS responsibility to deal with Claudius?? Oh yeah and

HE DIDNT WANT TO MURDER SOMEONE?????

WOULD YOU???????

[katyspersonal]

One of the coolest things my friend Kris said, "A good headcanon differs from the canon knowingly, not out of wilfull ignorance".

Like, there is a big difference between being corrected (not always for an indisputable reason, but the intention matters) and being creatively policed! When someone shares a headcanon and you know the canon bit that contradicts it, just say it! Either they could reconsider their idea with the new information or say "yeah cool but I prefer to write my own thing, not to be 100% accurate to the canon" which are both valid. Because, the latter one knowingly differs from the canon!

But like, apparently in the eyes of some people, being informed on what was missed equals baiting hostility, policing creativity or whatnot? Like, yet again, if someone gets straight up angry and vindictive at being reminded that they are in the fandom, for something with pre-existing information, then it loops back to the question of why they are in a fandom and not doing their own original project to begin with! I can't find any other reasoning for admitting you do not want to even know canon and only here to take basic surface bits to make your own thing besides the fact that pre-existing fanbase just will engage more willingly even with canon divergent portrayals, stories and just AUs!

But like... you can't be in a fandom while expecting to never have any discussion with other fans about this story and characters! Being told that you are wrong and being told that you are wrong for BEING wrong are two whole different things, and mentality of fans not being allowed to say anything besides agreement, when it is about pre-existing media, is straight up lame and not what fandoms are about. Not everyone who points what is missing a petty redditor that hates headcanons; most of the "well actualies" come from the place of love for both canon and headcanons! This is the case of "before you break the rules you need to know them", but people that tell what rules are are anything but wrong, hostile or immature. People that say "you come into my house and maliciously ruin my fun" when they hear about those rules, however?

Again: a good headcanon differs from the canon knowingly, not out of wilfull ignorance.

[somedozenlines]

brief summation of the vibes: i've run amuck on tumblr for some time now. however i am now cursed and blessed with actual work in the arts, which means all the energy and brainspace i used to give to whatever tv show seized my attention is now going towards my professional/artistic endeavor of any given moment! so this is where any loose thoughts rumbling around about pieces i'm working on (or other theatre/art of interest) will get thrown. cheers. expect a lot of elsinore in the coming year

[crazyw3irdo]

been asked if i’ll make a hamlet version of my uquiz and truly like i get why you’d want me to do that but why would i do that when rosencrantz & guildenstern are dead exists

[fagmegumi]

im sorry to keep harping on about this but like PLEASE. Seriously

[nemesislightyagami]

there really should be more death note/shakespeare content, especially considering light and l's internal monologues are essentially soliloquies

[karl-von-moor-official]

When Bernando asked if Horatio was there and he answered "A piece of him." I felt that shit.

[calmlythrilling]

hey professor could you create a catboy potion

A very long, very tired sigh. Believe it or not, this is not the first time he's been requested for such a thing.

"Yes, I could create a .... 'catboy potion.' Are you in the business for one? Ears and tail if you or someone else drinks the whole thing, I can even make sure they're specific colors and fur textures... there can also be other features if you're wanting them. Teeth, tongue, ability to purr, so forth..."

[blue-corvid]

I don’t have to share someone’s tastes to think they should be treated well. Fuck the haters.

I truly need everyone on this hellsite to get comfortable expressing support for something without feeling the need to simultaneously distance yourself from it. this absolutely plagues the notifications of several of my posts, ranging from the one about friends having sex with each other to the new containment breach about romance novels.

"this is fine I WOULD PERSONALLY NEVER DO IT IT'S NOT FOR ME NOT MY CUP OF TEA NO SIR I WOULD PERSONALLY NEVER PLEASE DON'T MISTAKE ME FOR SOMEONE WHO WOULD but it's fine if you do" is like. idk. it's a small thing and it's dumb but making a point to distance yourself really undercuts the affirmation you're trying to to provide and more importantly it is very very annoying to have to scroll through in my notifs