#women are so important to magic in asoiaf

[reignof-fyre]

Women in the asoiaf world are so important to magic and there's so much evidence of it and everyone is seemingly willfully blind when it's right there that the murder and kinslaying of thr Amethyst Empress was the catalyst for the Long Night and the Usurpation of Rhaenyra Targaryen, the rightful queen, was the cause of the dragons dying and it was daenys the Dreamer who saved the Targaryens through her dragon dreams and ensured their survival and it was Daenerys Targaryen, the rightful heir of the Targaryen Dynasty, that brought dragons back to life like its right there throughout the history of this world that women are so fundamentally important to magic and everyone is out here crying about it when in grrms own words it's significant and important!!!! Listen people!!

[chocolatepot]

Hi! Can you elaborate on "Fuck GRRM's committment to 'historical realism' without knowing anything about medieval social history"? I would love to know about what GRRM gets wrong about medieval gender roles, specifically.

So Cersei learns at an early age that she has no agency, her only value is producing heirs and is barred from traditional routes of power so she has to use underhanded methods such as influencing men with sex or using underhanded magical means. I would love an explanation on why this doesn't reflect medieval queen consorts and noble women irl.

Sure! The basic summary is: GRRM "knows" the things that everyone "knows" about the middle ages, which are broad stereotypes often reflective of a) primary sources that deserve a critical reading rather than being taken at face value and b) the judgements of later periods making themselves look better at the medieval period's expense.

As Shiloh Carroll argues, building on the work of Helen Young, “readers are caught in a ‘feedback loop’ in which Martin’s work helps to create a neomedieval idea of the Middle Ages, which then becomes their idea of what the Middle Ages ‘really’ looked like, which is then used to defend Martin’s work as ‘realistic’ because it matches their idea of the real Middle Ages.”

Since you're mainly interested in Cersei here, I'd strongly recommend a book: Queenship and the Women of Westeros: Female Agency and Advice in Game of Thrones and A Song of Ice and Fire, edited by Zita Eva Rohr and Lisa Benz. It's an excellent read and speaks to exactly what you're asking about. The tone of the book is very positive and non-judgemental when it comes to GRRM and his depictions of women on the whole, but I think some of this is rhetorical positioning to not seem like "mean angry academics jumping on fiction for not being accurate," as the actual content turns the reader to thinking about how much agency and power medieval queens had in different European societies and how little of that worked its way into GRRM's worldbuilding.

It's true that women typically didn't inherit titles and thrones in their own right, and that they were usually given in marriage for political/dynastic reasons. However, they weren't seen as brood mares whose only duty was to pop out sons: both queens and noblewomen had roles to play as household managers, counselors, and lieutenants, actively participating in the ruling of their domains and in local and international diplomacy (women in political alliances were not just pawns sent to a powerful man's bed, but were to act as ambassadors for their families and to pass information back and forth), and they had to be raised with an understanding of this so that they could learn to do it. Motherhood was very important, don't get me wrong, but it's a mistake to assume as pop culture does that a wife's foremost duty being to provide heirs for her family meant that she was ONLY seen as a mother/potential mother.

Catelyn is a great example of what was expected of women in these positions. But in the books, Catelyn is basically the only woman who inhabits this role, and the impression given is that she's exceptional, that she's just in charge of the household because she's so great at it that Ned allows her to be his partner, and that he listens to her advice because she happens to be a wise person in his orbit - and also that Ned is exceptional for giving so much power to a woman, because in the world of ASOIAF, it takes an especially good man to do this. In GRRM's view of the medieval world, realpolitik and the accumulation of power are the most important things, so men in Westeros are extremely unlikely to give up any authority to their wives, even though this is historically inaccurate.

Cersei, on the other hand, is supposed to be a more realistic depiction of what would happen to an ambitious medieval woman. There's a chapter titled "Queen of Sad Mischance: Medievalism, “Realism,” and the Case of Cersei Lannister" in the book I've rec'd, and it deals with why this is problematic extremely well. (This is the source of the quote at the top of this post.) In it, Kavita Mudan Finn argues that Cersei embodies pretty much every medieval trope for the illegitimate wielding of power by a woman. She underhandedly gets people killed for opposing her, she seduces men into doing her bidding, she advances her family's interests and her own at the expense of the realm. She's made sympathetic through fannish interpretation and Lena Headey's performance, but in the text she's an evil woman doing evil things. Even when she gets to be regent for her son - a completely legitimate historical position that allowed women to handle the levers of power almost exactly like a king - she continues to do shitty things and not be taken seriously because she's just not good at ruling.

But even before then, from a medieval perspective she had access to completely legitimate power that she didn't use: she'd have had estates giving her a large personal income, religious establishments to patronize (giving her a good reputation as a pious woman and people she'd put in high positions being personally loyal to her), artists and writers to patronize as well, power over her household, men around her listening to her counsel. That she doesn't have that is a reflection of GRRM either deciding these things don't really exist in Westeros in order to make it a worse world than medieval Europe and justify Cersei feeling she had to use underhanded means of power, or not knowing that they were ordinary and unexceptional because he has a good working knowledge of the politics of the Wars of the Roses but little to no knowledge of social history beyond pop culture osmosis, and, imo, little to no interest in actual power dynamics.

There are a lot of books I'd recommend on this subject. There's a series from Palgrave Macmillan called "Queenship and Power" and nearly all the books in it are THE BEST. Theresa Earenfight's Queenship in Medieval Europe is a very readable introduction to the situations of queens in European societies across the continent. She also has a book, Women and Wealth in Late Medieval Europe, that also addresses non-royal women's power. I'm also a huge fan of English Aristocratic Women, 1450-1550: Marriage and Family, Property and Careers, by Barbara Harris, which really emphasizes the "career" aspect of women's lives as administrators and diplomats.

[misguidedasgardian]

The Winter Sun (19)

19. Premonitions

MASTERLIST

Summary: The snow melts and the dragons danced 

Pairing: Cregan Stark x Fem!Targaryen Reader 

Warnings: Cursing, medieval and asoiaf customs, AGE GAP, Cregan is 12 years OLDER than reader), arranged marriage, dark magic!, intended infanticide, war and all that comes with it, death of secondary characters, mentions of murder and annilhilation,  might miss some warnings

+18, MINORS DNI

Wordcount: 3,2 k

Notes: We are going to fast forward a couple of months. Also, unlike in the White Dragon, I will NOT dwell on the war itself and the details, only those important to our storyline

Aemond was restless

Rhaenyra had not answered to the death of her son, except for the fact that numerous spies had come back to the capital with tales of meetings and reunions, and Lords calling their banners into war, and pledging their allegiance to Rhaenyra…. Lords that conformed more than half of the Crownlands…

The Greens had the Stormlands and the Eastlands… they needed the Riverlands, if they hold them… they will prevent the two biggest armies from coming down against the capital… the Northern army and the knights of the Vale

War was imminent

As all the Houses of the Crownlands falling to Rhaenyra’s side, they needed to move 

Harrenhal

Harrenhal was the destination for Vhagar and her rider, a small army had gone ahead to take the burned castle, and when Aemond arrived… He killed House Strong and all its members, children, the elderly, women, and men, all fell to his sword, and as the day ended, so did the house that was a banner to Aegon the Conqueror himself. 

All of them, but one… Aemond spent two months in the company of Alys Rivers…

“I see him”, she whispered, her dark green eyes looking at the flames in front of her, flaming green in the hearth, she threw herbs at the fire, and it burned even brighter, “he is far away though”, Aemond came close to her, placing his hands in her hips, whispering in her ear

“Can you do it?”, he asked darkly, leaving a wet kiss under her ear

“Babies, my love, are very difficult to bewitch”, she moaned, as she didn’t stop putting things in the fire, “you see, they are protected by things such as love, and innocence, and this one in particular…”, she seemed to see something in the flames, “this baby in particular is protected by a very ancient energy”, he stopped, looking at the fire as well, but he couldn’t see anything in the flames

“What energy?”, he asked, seriousness tightening his voice

“The Old Gods protect him from evil”, she said softly, “and the love not only from his parents, but from his family, and the Lords and Ladies that follow house Stark, and… something else”

“He is some sort of magical baby?”, he asked in a mocking tone

“No, my love, he is just… he has been expected not only by his father, but by many people on the realm of the North, their love and loyalty protect him”, she said, but she couldn’t hide the worry in her face

“Can you do it or not?”

“I’m going to try”, she said 

A low growl awakened you with a jump, as did Cregan, when you adjusted your eyes, you saw that Autumn was standing at the foot of the bed, looking at the door of your room. 

You had never seen her like that, all the hairs in the back of her fur were standing up, were bristled, and she was showing her huge teeth menacingly. 

“Autumn?”, Cregan called, standing from the bed, grabbing his sword from beside the nightstand and then he unsheathed it, but to the surprise of all of you, there was no one there. The door was opened, yes, but the hallway was empty, the giant Direwolf was growling at thin air

“What is happening?”, you asked, sleepily, Cregan was looking at the door, but again he was met with nothing, he then looked back at Autumn and she wasn’t growling anymore, but she had her golden eyes pointed in that direction

“What is it girl?”, he asked again, he walked out of the room, into the hallway to find it completely empty, only the guards, in the end of it near the stairwell, in a second Cregan came back, he looked in the crib at his son and the sleeping puppies and he breathed more relaxed, he then petted Autumn’s fur and went back to bed, The direwolf’s stand was now more relaxed, she even laid down again, but her golden eyes were set on the door.

“What was it?”, you asked sleepily

“It was nothing”, Cregan whispered again the skin of your shoulder, hugging you tightly

“You sure?”, you asked, and then you felt Cregan’s warm breath in your neck

“Sometimes the Direwolfs see things we cannot”

“That doesn’t make me feel better”, you giggled, because you believed he was kidding, and you fell back to sleep in your husband’s arms. 

The simple human eye couldn’t see it, but Autumn could see the looming shadow trying to enter the room, to go near the crib, at her growls the shadow stopped and stayed at the entrance, but then it disappeared in thin air, the mission failed. 

Alys watched you in the flames with a frown, but as she felt Aemond’s arms around her, she relaxed when he kissed her neck

“Did you do it?”, he asked

“I couldn’t”, she admitted

“What about him?”, he asked, “What about Cregan Stark?”

“That is something else entirely”, she said then, but she didn’t like what she saw, she turned around to see him, and he looked down at her with a content smile on his face. "you will have your chance with Cregan Stark", she whispered, "I have seen it, him burning under Vhagar's flames", she chanted, her voice entrapping him like a siren's song.

When Autumn put her pups in Rickon’s crib, they were fluffy beans, they hadn't even opened their eyes yet, they were newborns just like your baby, but they were growing quickly, you giggled trying not to step on them, as you were trying to get dressed. 

There were still very small, the size of cats with triangles as tails and their ears still down and floppy, but they were super cute 

They were growing their teeths and found no better practice than your shoes, they nibbled at your feet as you moved around the room. Luckily, their teeth weren't big enough to injure you yet. 

Autumn was in the corner, looking at you as you walked around the room, watching her puppies, she was taken with you now, not leaving your side when you were in the room, and her pups

“Are you ready gorgeous?”, Cregan asked as he entered your chambers, you jumped in surprise, you had not heard him approach and he was probably staring at the scene, Autumn, six pups, your son in his crib, and you walking around the room 

“Yes”, you said, adjusting your clothes 

“I’m not sure if I want you flying alone right now”, he said, worried, “that psychopath is out there”

The snow had melted, armies were being assembled, and Jacaerys was going to go back to Dragonstone. The plan was for you to go with him, to get Vhaelar back, and to see Rhaenyra and surrender the North formally to her.

“I know”, you said, looking back at him, “but I will be in and out, and they will never know I went”, you said with a shy smile, “besides I need Vhaelar here, where she can protect us”

“I know”, he still hugged you tightly in his arms, his face buried on your neck. “Are you sure you are ready?”, he asked then, and you nodded

“The maester cleared me”, you assured him, “it’s going to be alright”, you wanted to tell him you didn’t want to leave Rickon, that the very thought of it ripped your heart to shreds, but if you did he was never going to let you go and you needed to do this, you needed to understand what was happening in the South.

And to get your dragon! 

“The nannies and I will take care of Rickon”, Cregan promised you

“You better”, you mocked, and he smiled warmly, you looked at your son. It was funny, one of the little pups had taken to him specially, and was cuddling with him in his crib, a little gray fur ball 

You took your son in your arms and cradled him against your chest, Cregan hugged you tightly as you did

“Please take care”, he whispered in your ear

“I will return within the week, I promise”, you answered, without stopping looking at your son in your arms, you truly felt like your heart was breathing and moving outside of your body

You left Rickon in his crib as you turned your eyes on Cregan, and as he met them with his own, he was surprised. You were looking at him with desire and he caught you right then

“What?”, he asked, as you just draw a sword on him, you only smiled widely

“There is something I want us to do before I left”, you whispered with a sneaky smile, he blushed, but he smiled

“Are you sure?”, he asked, you smiled

“I want another one”, you whispered, looking at Rickon, and he smiled widely

“Perfect, because I want another one too”, he chuckled, and he threw himself at you, catching your lips in his, and embracing you.

“WAIT! NOT IN FRONT OF THE CHILDREN!”, you laughed as he hugged you tightly against him 

. . . 

Jace looked at you mockingly when he saw you coming all messy, with your hair disarranged and a goofy smile on your face

“Alright”, he growled, and you just giggled

Vermax was restless, you could tell he didn’t like people, but he looked at you as you approached him, and he growled in warning

“Jace”, you called, the brunette raised his hand

Now you realized why they called him the “ill tempered”, it took you a good hour, but finally, Jace and you took to the skies on his back

It was the first time you flied on a dragon that wasn’t Vhaelar 

the flight was long, and still cold, you and Jace were dress for winter and still struggled, you decided to flight until you reached Dragonstone, it was a long jump, but, with the current war playing out all over the Kingdoms, you really didn’t know who to trust, except the Arryn’s

Luckily, you arrived in Dragonstone at night, and even though you were happy to be here, and relieved everything seemed fine, you already were missing your baby, Rickon, Jace smiled back at you as you approached the castle by the long stone bridge.

It was the middle of the night, everyone was asleep but a handful of guards that received you and led you to your chambers.

“Queen Rhaenyra shall receive you in the morning”, it’s the only thing they said as they left you at the doors of the same room you stayed in with Cregan, a year ago.

Gods you missed them, your husband and child.

The very next day, you were received, as promised, by your cousin, the Queen, and her entire court/family, and everyone greeted you warmly, but you could feel the cold, the mourning and loss of Luke, even though it had been two months already.

“I came in representation of house Stark, dear cousin, my queen”, you greeted, “the North is yours”, she smiled solemnly and bowed her head

“Cousin, I’m afraid I will need more than words, I need them to march South”, she said firmly, you could see the fire in her eyes, the seriousness in her voice, clearly the gentle smile and kind eyes were gone, smoked off by the death of one of her children.

“It was a hard winter”, you tried to explain, “but Cregan is calling his banners as we speak”, you assured her, and she just nodded.

Everyone around you kept talking about battles, and wars, how the Baratheon army was ready to march, and how the Greens took Harrenhal, you trembled when you heard who in particular had taken it.

“He is clearly defying us!”, said Daemon, “we need to take it back!”

“What will they do with it anyways?”, asked another, “The usurper named Criston Cole as his hand, he clearly doesn’t know what he is doing”, he laughed, but you didn’t think that was a laughing matter, Criston Cole was no idiot but a seasoned soldier and Lord Commander of the Kingsguard 

“I agree”, said Rhaenyra, “but also…”

“My Queen”, the meeting was interrupted by the maester, who came rushing in with a letter in hand, “an urgent message from Lord Stauton!”, he said as he rushed to Rhaenyra’s side

Your cousin took the scroll and read it, she got serious all of a sudden, and she looked at Daemon

“The green are threatening Rook’s Rest”, she said, “Cole is there, with an army, Lord Stauton managed to close the gates to the city but he is being laid siege upon”, whispers and dark words were being exchanged in the room, “he calls for help”

“Of course we need to send someone!”

“He is our ally”, many sentences were exchanged but RHaenyra seemed truly puzzled

You were interrupted by a sharp pain in your breasts, and you had to excuse yourself from the meeting. The maester warned you it might happen, your milk accumulating in your breast without RIckon to drink it. You whined pathetically when you found yourself alone in the hallway.

Rhaenys soon joined you, with that maternal look in her eyes she only saves for you 

“Looks like my body also misses my child”, you excused with a smile, she embraced you tightly against her, comforting you 

“How is he?”, she asked once you separated, she accommodate a hair strand behind your ear

“Oh, he is so beautiful, sometimes i look at him and I can’t believe he is real”, you explained, and when Rhaenys looked into your eyes she found them filled with love, “but at the same time, it’s scary how real he is and how much I love him!”, you said then

“That is what it is like”, she said, you shared a complicit smile, and you felt sad because she had lost her two children… but she has grandchildren now… she held you hands in hers

“When all of this is over, I will go and meet him, maybe stay a bit in the North with you”, she offered, and only that made you forget all about your pain

“Nothing would make me happier”, you promised her

“It is done then”, she said, and you smiled widely

“You promise?”, you asked

“I promise” 

“Good”

You didn’t really want to play a part in the war, so after the Dragonstone Maester gave you a few mixed herbs to soothe your pains, you decided to do what you came here to do… 

Motherhood had really taken a toll on your body as you panted trying to regain your breath and reach the top of the Dragon mount. But you didn't need to, Vhaelar showed up in all her glory, with her signature growl you could recognize everywhere.

She landed down the hill, she was go big it made the earth near you shake, you had missed her and almost forgotten how beautiful she was, you haven't seen her in almost a year

“Ritzas, Vhaelar”, [Hello, Vhaelar], she cooed in response, greeting you, coming so close you petter her snout, “Nyke missed ao”, [I missed you] 

You feared she might not take to you after leaving her here, but, she did, you could feel the bond strengthening.

There wasn’t much left to say, or to talk with the rest of your family, Rhaenyra was not the same anymore, she didn’t want to talk, she didn’t want to chat or ask about your life in the North. She wanted war, she wanted blood, she wanted her throne and she wanted revenge, so the best thing for you to do was to go back to Winterfell and give her an army, not promises. 

So after you said your goodbyes to your family, the very next morning, you flew back to Winterfell. 

This time, as your dragon was bigger, you arrived home as the sun was setting, only three days after you left, you were glad you were home, of course Cregan was there to greet you, as the snow had melted into water and the water had made the soil under you mud, the courtyard was a bloody mess but you couldn’t care less as you let your husband embrace you in his arms.

“How is Rickon?”, is the first thing you asked and he chuckled

“He is very well”, he said calmly, “the nights had been a nightmare though… he missed his mommy”, you smiled widely, and you barely greeted Sara as you went running to your rooms to see him. You gather him in your arms and he opened his violet eyes just for you

“Rytsas ñuha dōna valītsos”, [Oh hello my sweet boy], yes you were speaking High Valyrian to RIckon so he could inherit it, “konīr iksis mirri jaelan ao naejot rhaenagon”, [there is someone I want you to meet]

You carried him outside once you made sure he was dressed for the weather, and as Cregan who was speaking to the Maester of arms of Winterfell, he opened his eyes widely

“No!”, he said

“You had you turn, now I have mine”, you said, not taking a no for answer

“This is different! that is a huge dragon!”, he said, pointing outside the walls

“You promised Cregan”, you said one more time as you were crossing the huge gates, “trust me please?”, you asked, seriously, he looked into your eyes and found nothing but determination, so he sighed and nodded, you looked back at Vhaelar who was in the same spot where you landed with her, and you walked towards her slowly

Cregan stood a few feet behind you, but he didn’t even dare to move.

“Vhaelar”, you called, “bisa iksis Rīkon”, [this is Rickon], you introduced. Her golden eyes looked at you with curiosity and then at the bundle in your arms, she leaned in even close her, so she could smell him, “issa hen nyke, ñuha tresy”, [he is from me, my son] 

As she was smelling him, she closed her huge eyes and when she opened them up again, her pupil had enlarged, making them seem almost entirely black, as she cooed at him. You smiled widely seeing her interaction

She drew a happy, gentle roar as she kept gazing at him, you made sure his little face was exposed to your bonded dragon. Rickon seemed to look at Vhaelar with his Valyrian eyes, but he was just too small yet to give a real reaction. 

Vhaelar raised her head and cooed once more, before she turned around slowly not to crush you or push you and she took flight

You turned around happily and Cregan was standing there, with a huge smile on his face

“That was incredible”, he said, “she seemed to take to him”, he admired

“They couldn’t have bonded, but yes, she did seem to understand who he was”, you were so happy, Cregan took RIckon in his arms and then he took you both into Winterfell, the night was falling over the North and you needed to rest. 

Aemond was even more restless as he was placing his armor on him, with the help of Alys

“When will it happen?”, the dark haired woman could feel it in his skin, the desire of another, the desire to kill and conquer, she didn’t like the first part, but she smiled nonetheless

“Soon my love”, she purred in his ear

“When?”, he insisted, she frowned leaning over and kissing him under his ear 

“In thirty sunrises the wolves will come for the lands of the rivers”, she chanted, “they will meet the dragon and burn under their flame”, it was so, she had seen it

“IN a month then”, he said, Alys looked into his eye through the mirror in front of them, and she finally saw him smile

“That is what I have seen”, she said

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[naetaesarya]

i remember there was some discourse on how the reaction of the books and the ending was the reason grrm hasn’t released the books specifically suggesting that it’s daenerys ending and her “mad queen” arc but i think it’s because grrm is returning to the original outline with its major house stark points being an antithesis to the faux feminist show ending (sansa’s death, tension between jon and bran, incest between jon and arya)

Hi anon!! This will be a bit of a long long answer :) :) :) Happy Halloween!

From my foggy hazy addled memory, GRRM was having issues releasing Winds years before season 8 bombed and exploded its viscera everywhere. We'll have that goo staining the carpet for years :( GRRM seemed to believe the books would end roughly in the same place as the show... until after seeing season 8 whereupon he was like... well...

You know I had a lot of input in the beginning of Game of Thrones, partly cause I had these books out there. But at a certain point, as the show went on, I found I had less and less influence, until by the end, I really didn't even know what, what was going on. Some of these things I watched like everybody else and and, "oh...okay..." That's...

Source

Yeah.

I think it's also very important to consider what kind of messaging would a mad queen Dany send?

Dany is one of GRRM's lead female characters and she has existed as the protagonist of her own narrative since the very beginning. She defies a number of feminine conventions and is anything but a passive support sidekick character. As GRRM said, Daenerys can do anything, she can literally make up the magic as she goes. When Dany loses her husband and her child, as well as her position as Khal Drago's khaleesi, she creates and leads her own khalasar made up of misfits. Upon her brother's death, Dany is now responsible for returning the Iron Throne to her family's dynasty and what is traditionally a male's job becomes Dany's job. As such, Dany gathers forces, commands armies, plans battles, and at only 16, she is a leader and queen in her own right. This small and formerly timid 16-year old girl is now the most powerful person in this world.

When GRRM conceived this story in the late 80s-early 90s, action-oriented girls who defied convention and were the central focus of their own narratives didn't really happen. That's why shows such as Buffy the Vampire Slayer hit that special kind of nerve in the 90s, became so influential in the decades when ASOIAF was being published, and had a lasting influence on media since. Writer and producer Bryan Fuller remarks:

"Buffy showed that young women could be in situations that were both fantastic and relatable, and instead of shunting women off to the side, it puts them at the center."

Source

GRRM does just that with Dany and Arya -- Dany and Arya are active participants in the centers of relatable situations with fantastical elements. Of Arya, GRRM says:

I can’t say there’s any one specific model [for Arya], but a lot of the women I’ve known over the years have had aspects of Arya with them. Especially some of the women I knew when I was a young man back in the ’60s and ’70s, you know — the decade of the sexual revolution and the feminist movement. I knew a lot of young women who weren’t buying into the, “Oh, I have to find a husband and be a housewife.”

Source

It's a reference to a certain physical type, and a certain indication of what Jon finds admirable. It's like someone who reminds you of, you know... Other people might be put off by this, you know, hair that looks like small rodents have been living in there. It doesn't put him off because he is used to that.

Source

Jon is endeared to Ygritte because she reminds him of Arya, a character who GRRM patterned after the real world women he knew coming up amidst second-wave feminism. As Arya wants options outside of typical gendered choices for highborn ladies, Dany is also kind of thrust into this sudden and pretty unconventional role. She emerges from the inferno unburned with three baby dragons and what's left of the khalasar after it has been deserted.

Arya and Dany are both thrust down unconventional paths as they navigate their environments and who they are in relation to those environments. Dany continues to explore her sexuality with Irri and later, Daario. She works hard to turn away from any dark inclinations (inclinations which all of our characters experience) and the last thing she wants to be is like her father.

What would it say if GRRM took this figure and made her "mad" or filled her with homicidal rage and hate, especially at a time when proactive action girls are not a commonality but so rare. What would that be saying? What idea of GRRM's would this be supporting?

I also struggle with Dany being mad in the books because while D&D ascribed credit for King Bran, burning Shireen, Hodor's origins to GRRM, and even shades of Jon/Dany, that definitely didn't happen with Mad Dany. While much of season 8 is divisive, what I'm gleaning is that Dany's turn was among the most controversial -- if not the most controversial -- element. Wouldn't D&D let GRRM shoulder some of that blame if it was a GRRM thing?

My own feeling is that D&D tried to recreate the Red Wedding with Mad Dany -- ambush audience with big surprise twist (whoops, Dany's been triggered by bells) and then shock, shock, shock, tragedy, and look at that artful blood.

but i think it’s because grrm is returning to the original outline with its major house stark points being an antithesis to the faux feminist show ending (sansa’s death, tension between jon and bran, incest between jon and arya)

Yeah, I think that outline is still relevant. I think there will be a succession crisis of sorts among the remaining Starks: a Littlefinger-backed and sponsored direwolfless Sansa; a Manderly-backed Rickon; a will and/or Stannis-supported Jon, and the heir whom Robb believed dead -- Bran Stark. Then there's Arya who:

is currently believed to be the Lady of Winterfell;

identity was used by the Boltons as the "key to the North"';

and is "the Ned's girl" for whom the mountains clans fight:

Even prisoners have ears, and she had heard all the talk at Deepwood Motte, when King Stannis and his captains were debating this march. Ser Justin had opposed it from the start, along with many of the knights and lords who had come with Stannis from the south. But the wolves insisted; Roose Bolton could not be suffered to hold Winterfell, and the Ned's girl must be rescued from the clutches of his bastard. So said Morgan Liddle, Brandon Norrey, Big Bucket Wull, the Flints, even the She-Bear.

(The King's Prize, ADWD)

I think Arya would choose Jon if forced to choose. There was a bitter rift between Bran and Jon in the original outline and that could manifest in the remaining story as well, perhaps over Winterfell or something at the Wall.

What did GRRM say about happy families 😭

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

If Nettles was white, she would be as popular as Lyanna, Brienne or Arya, and y’all know it.

She grew up a homeless orphan (which is why it’s so insulting when people try to act like she’s a freaking idiot who doesn’t know how to bathe herself yet she can tame a dragon🤦🏽‍♀️ Put most of the highborn women in her position and they wouldn’t survive a day in her shoes).

She’s the only known non-Valyrian dragonrider who claims a wild dragon. A prince who believes in Valyrian supremacy falls in love with her to the point where he’s willing to sacrifice his life for her. Nettles singlehandedly disproves the whole idea of Targaryen exceptionalism and their blood purity. She slowly earns a dragon’s trust by bringing him sheep, and gradually he lets her closer, and then forms the dragonrider bond and lets her fly. up until this point, nobody had tried a strategy like that before.

Nettles is self-made. She’s self-taught. She’s loved for herself. She survives a freaking war and becomes a fire goddess/witch. Who wouldn’t want her ? Who wouldn’t want to be her ? Unlike Rhaenyra and Alicent, she’s the final girl of F&B.

Once again, I don't understand where you got that I'm anti Nettles? I'm anti Nettles x Daemon, but other than that theory, I very much am a fan of Nettles as a character. I won't say that there isn't racism and unfairness that happen regarding Nettles' character (though I haven't seen it personally), because people can be really shitty. But me personally, again, I'm not anti Nettles, I just dislike certain groups of her stans.

Again, I don't deny that Nettles was a strong woman. She endured many things most characters in F&B don't and most likely survived the Dance. However, I do disagree with some of the ideas you're stating as fact.

For starters, we don't know if Nettles is non-Valyrian; that's one of the many theories surrounding her, but it's not confirmed, so stating it as fact is misleading. Just because she lacks traditional Valyrian features doesn't means she isn't a dragonseed.

Jace and his brothers don't look Valyrian but they very obviously are of Valyrian descent. Rhaenys, the queen who never was, had black hair; Duncan the son of Aegon V looked like his mother, Betha Blackwood; Aegor Rivers also had black hair; Baelor Breakspear had dark hair; Daeron son of Maekar had sandy brown hair; Rhaenys the daughter of Rhaegar had her mother, Elia Martell's features.

Moving on, Daemon's relationship with Nettles is ambiguous. We don't know if they were in a romantic relationship or if his attack on Aemond was purely to save her (though I'm sure that was part of his decision). Again, you are stating a theory you believe as fact, even though it's unconfirmed.

I'm not going to touch the whole thing of Targaryen exceptionalism, because, as I said earlier, Nettles' parentage is unconfirmed. But the whole blood purity thing still hasn't been disproven at any point of GRRM's works; they intermarried to preserve their magic blood, the magic blood still exists in ASOIAF due to the incest.

Nettles is an important character in the story of the Dance, but she isn't the "final girl" you claim she is, let alone of the whole book. There are several dragon riders who survived the Dance and thrived. Rhaena is the ancestor of the Tyrells in the main series. Aegon III is the ancestor of Daenerys, the Baratheons, any remaining Blackfyres, and possibly Jon Snow and Young Griff. Baela and Alyn are the ancestors of Aurane Waters and the Velaryons.

The book of F&B is so much more than the Dance of the Dragons. Saying that Nettles is the "final girl" of the book doesn't make any sense when she only appears in a few sections. That's like saying Alys Rivers is actually the main character of the book. Nettles disappears after the Dance and doesn't appear in any other event. She does nothing else after her disappearance and has relatively little impact on the history of Westeros post Dance.

I have absolutely no idea where you're getting the whole "fire goddess/witch" thing. However, you have already been throwing out theories and your personal biases as fact, so I don't think it matters. I'm not trying to control who your fav is, I totally understand wanting to be a certain book character. But that doesn't mean you can act like everyone else is wrong for not having the same fav as you.

It's that kind of entitlement, thinking you're better than everyone else that makes people not like Nettles stans. It's almost on par with stansas and Alicent stans. People like you project so hard onto your favs, you take any perceived insult, critique, or argument as a personal attack. It's exhausting interacting with people like you.

[zenkindoflove]

Elain Archeron and Sansa Stark: A Comparison

I’ve been wanting to make this post for a while because I have seen a lot of similarities between Elain’s character and Sansa Stark (ASOIAF/GOT), not only in their mannerisms and narrative but the way that the fandom unfairly undermines and outright despises them. So, this post is going to be a bit of an exploration of both of their characters, speaking mostly to the ACOTAR fandom, to try and give some predictions I have about Elain’s narrative journey and lessons learned from Sansa’s narrative.

Elain and Sansa fit a very similar female character archetype in fantasy (and other fiction genres), which is that they are more traditionally feminine characters that conform to their roles as women in their patriarchal societies as compared to their counterparts who buck gender norms often by learning to fight. In particular, Elain and Sansa are often directly compared to their sisters who fit the more beloved sword-fighting, sassy, smart-mouthed heroines. What is important to this post, is that these characters are almost always heavily maligned and criticized by fandoms at large with critiques that are often rooted in misogyny, which fundamentally undervalues expressions of femininity and feminine roles. 

Both characters also have a lot of other similarities when it comes to their personalities, characteristics, and narratives. Both Elain and Sansa are obedient daughters who are described as sociable and make friends easily. They both are well-skilled in navigating courtly politics, and they begin their journeys as deep romantics, dreaming and wishing to fall in love. They’re both betrothed to men for political gain, and both undergo tragic and heartbreaking violations to their bodily autonomy. They are also both frequently undermined by characters’ in their stories, often underestimated in their strengths and abilities, and in both stories, those assumptions are proven wrong.

Now, we do not know where Elain’s journey is going, but we do Sansa’s, at least from the show. Sansa eventually finds her independence and her strength, taking back her ancestral home and being declared Queen in the North. She did not do this by becoming a warrior or a great battle commander. No, she did this by leaning into her political skills, inspiring nobles and armies to fight for her because of her name and what it represents. And when she had some power, leading her people and putting their care first, a narrative journey I hope to see for Elain coming into her own leadership position one day. 

One of the ways I wanted to outline drawing some of these parallels, is to break down some of the criticisms that Elain faces now that Sansa Stark also faced by fans. And if you are reading this and these criticisms are ones you have expressed, hopefully you reconsider your assumptions about Elain and where her story is going. 

Elain is boring. 

This accusation is often ascribed to Elain based on her interests and hobbies and refusal to participate in more traditionally masculine roles in the narrative (fighting, swordplay). Elain is often described as gardening, baking, helping with domestic duties, and purposely kept away from the political and adventurous parts of the narrative. And yet, this does not mean that in order for Elain to be interesting, she suddenly needs to be thrust into her own version of a training montage to start learning to use swords and daggers. Elain is a powerful Made Fae. She has one of the rarest abilities, being a Seer. She is deeply connected with the Koschei plot, as she was the one to see a vision of him, Vassa, and the other cursed women, which brought about Lucien’s journey to the continent and connecting that overall plot to what is happening in Prythian. It’s very likely her story will focus on her exploring her magic more, likely with Lucien, to figure out how to break Vassa’s curse and destroy Koschei once and for all - none of which requires her to actually become a warrior. 

Elain will become evil. 

Sansa too was often criticized as being boring by fans. They saw her struggles, being passed from cruel husband to cruel husband, as signs she was weak. Sansa was often directly compared to her sister Arya who was learning to fight with a sword and training as an assassin. But Sansa was undergoing a very different sort of training. We see her shed her sheltered POV of the world, and instead, became deeply involved in the politics of the game of thrones. She learns from several characters how to play the game and play it right, as she is one of the few characters to survive until the end, having a true hero’s journey of ascension. We see that she uses people’s assumptions that she is stupid and naive to their disadvantage, allowing their underestimation of her abilities to make them turn away from how she outsmarts them in the end. Elain is also hinted at being deeply intelligent, in ways that even her sisters seem to ignore. She is also described several times in ACOSF as being sneaky, foreshadowing that she will surprise her family based on their assumptions of her. Ultimately, I foresee Elain leaning into her courtly knowledge and social skills, much like Sansa, to push forward her own journey.

Elain and Sansa are also both very inward characters. When they are struggling, they are more quiet and unassuming, to disarm others and draw attention away from them. As we know from Sansa's POV chapters, she was constantly strategizing her pretty words to save her skin. And I think Elain similarly shows the world one side of her, but hides a rich and complex inner world that we won't see until we get her POV.

This critique - which is also not always presented as a critique but sometimes as a wish for Elain to become a villain so she might be more interesting to those who find her boring - is one that I really dislike. And one of the biggest reasons I dislike it is because I saw the exact same predictions thrown at Sansa crash and burn. Often fans would revel in the idea that “finally, Sansa can become interesting” if she were to turn into the next Cersei or Littlefinger. But we did not see that happen. Instead, we saw that Sansa clung to her compassion, empathy, and her Stark morality, while shedding the blind trust that put her father and brothers into so much danger. She took lessons from Cersei and Littlefinger, but rather than becoming them, she bested them. Especially Littlefinger, where she outsmarted him when he tried to turn her and her sister against each other, and ultimately is the one who passed his execution sentence, achieving justice for all the crimes he committed against her family and Westeros. Sansa did not let the brutalization of her body and spirit turn her against her family. She never betrayed them, even when she was wed to their worst enemies. Instead, she made it her priority to serve and represent the North and its interest in all things, including standing up to Dany, because she understood to hold the North, she must not bend to other rulers and respect all that the North had sacrificed for the Starks. 

Similarly, I do not see Elain betraying her family. There are several times she asserts her loyalty and insists that she wants to help them and their interests. I think her story will be more about being underestimated by her family and overlooked for leadership roles and her insight (as was Sansa) and this will push her to branch out on her own to discover who she is outside of her family and the expectations they have of her. But I do not think she will become the antagonist to them. Instead, I see her using her own strength to “save” them too in ways they would have never imagined that Elain can do. Sansa was not an outright antagonist to Jon, for example, though she often challenged him (which upset many fans, more on that later) because she believed her perspective was valuable. I see Elain's difference in how she sees the world and what she values being in similar disagreement with the Night Court, and her having to "prove" herself to them that she needs to be taken seriously.

Elain and Sansa are also very similar in that they both are described as abhorring violence. Sansa, in the end, does sometimes use violence as a means to an end, and even is shown enjoying Ramsey’s brutal execution by being eaten by his own dogs. Yet, Sansa is never shown to enjoy moments like these again (and of course this moment is most understandable given all the torture Ramsey put her and others through). Sansa does not lead with anger or brutality like Cersei. Rather, she shifts from a bright, sunny girl to an authoritative woman who ices out her enemies and shows kindness and warmth to her friends and subjects. To me, in keeping with character archetypes, I do not see Elain straying from this core feature of herself as well. I don’t see her desiring to follow in the footsteps of others who use torture and violence to extract information or to hurt others who have hurt her. I do think should Elain come into a position of political leadership, that like Sansa, she will care for the people (as she is already shown to do in Velaris and was known to do in the human lands) and when needed, show her steely, authoritative voice that is unbending (much like the infamous quote from Sansa in the books “my skin has turned from porcelain, to ivory, to steel”). 

Basically, female characters do not have to be either warriors or evil villains to be interesting. Sometimes, female characters who are kind, compassionate, intelligent, and full of hope can still have badass stories and stand as heroines in their own right while maintaining all of those characteristics. 

Elain is two-faced/bitchy/spoiled/selfish. 

Of course, the classic, when the feminine character does anything SLIGHTLY unsettling to the reader, she is hated and tons of stereotypically misogynistic insults are thrown at her. 

I will first off start by saying that when people say this about Elain, it is when she is essentially displaying behaviors that counter their first argument - that Elain is boring. When Elain is being compliant and nice to the other characters, she is called boring. When she very briefly, pushes back on them at all, these insults are hurled at her. I don’t even want to waste time breaking down why these are just comically unfair. Because the fact of the matter is is that every character in the book displays moments of being two-faced/bitchy/spoiled/selfish. And yet, it is Elain who is given these monikers as if they are core features of who she is. Other female characters in ACOTAR are also called these names. However, Elain faces the unique situation of only ever being boring or bitchy to those who dislike her. She can't win either way.

Sansa, of course, had all these insults hurled at her too. She was a traitor and two-faced for having a girlish crush on Joffrey when she was 13 (11 in the books) and literally betrothed, by her father, to a prince. When Sansa at all stands up to characters like Jon or Dany and disagrees with them or argues with their logic about how to handle different choices, she is bitchy, even though Sansa is often proved to be correct in her logic, hesitancy, and how she thinks politically. And of course, in line with the previous point about becoming evil, it was assumed that Sansa would be two-faced with her family. And yet, we saw, time and time again, Sansa was loyal to House Stark. Even the ultimate “sin” of Cersei guilting her to write to Robb about their Father being a “traitor” to the crown - Sansa did it because she thought it was one way she could save her father’s life. Basically, Sansa’s crime was being a girl who didn’t win the audience over by being spunky like her sister. Sansa’s crime was her naivete early on - when she was only a child, and it haunted her throughout the entire series and how fans saw her. Even though, out of every character in the books/show, Sansa at her core, is the one who represents the audience the most. She is the most removed from the magical storylines. The way she lives her life is closer to our own modern way of living than any of the warriors or magical characters in their world. Sansa represents who we would be if we were suddenly thrust into a fantasy story - defenseless and easily abused. But most readers and watchers want to see who they are not, rather than follow a story of who they actually could be and what strength might follow. 

What I want to see from Elain’s story:

Following the lessons of staying true to my girl, Sansa, I hope that Elain, like Sansa, finds her own way in the empathy, kindness, and social skills that she has - along with exploring her powers. Now, as Elain is in a romance, and not a dystopian fantasy like Sansa is, her ending will have a HEA with her love interest. Sansa became Queen in the North, it’s true. But she has no love interest. Her family is all scattered. And there is a bit of a coldness to her now. Many suspect that she will play more of a Queen Elizabeth I role in her rule and never marry, as to keep House Stark as House Stark. But if she were to marry, it will likely be a political alliance, though, my hope is she will find love in it. Because while Sansa might have had her dreams dashed at an early age, I truly hope for the sake of that little romantic girl, she can find love after all the hurt she had to experience. 

Elain will end up with a romance at the end of her story. And I think harkening to her character archetype and who suits her narrative best, it will of course be with her mate, Lucien, who mirrors her characteristics, values, and morals the most. I imagine for them a story where they act as courtiers, helping piece back together Spring, working on alliances with the human lands, and eventually, once Lucien learns of his heritage, finding another home in the Day Court (though I do imagine them to be life-long travelers, making many friends and allies across Prythian and the continent together - as Elain always wanted to travel). Similar to how Sansa used her political intelligence and compassion for her people, I see Elain and Lucien as well using their courtier/emissary skills and knowledge and devotion to serving the people of the courts, putting diplomacy first, to heal a broken and divided world. I think especially the alliance with humans will be so important for Elain’s journey. Where Elain has struggled the most with no longer being human, Lucien has been immersing himself in human culture and political interests. And once they are ready to start their journey, I think both putting their heads together will be invaluable in representing both the interests of the Fae and the humans. I also think Lucien has more invested interest, as her mate, to push her to explore her powers rather than dismiss her ever exploring them like those in the Night Court do. Lucien’s connections through the world can also help her find ways to find the information she needs to learn more about being a Seer and whatever else is going on with her. He also has his own personal experience with exploring and learning of his multitude of powers as well, including what it means to suppress and hide them, as I suspect Elain has been doing. Where Sansa had to prove herself to every character in the story to take her seriously and respect her, I think the one person who has always and will always believe in Elain is the person who has a soul-to-soul connection with her. Who puts her and her needs before his own, and will serve as her devoted sworn shield (cries in Sansan) to fight for her if need be. 

Also maybe I wish and hope for the unlikely Lucien and Elain as High King and High Queen narrative which would fit so perfectly to Sansa’s own rise, but I suspect SJM won’t go in that direction.

Anyways, if you made it to the end, thanks for reading my desperate need to get all these parallels out of my head. I have adored Sansa since I first watched the show in 2011 and fell even more in love with her when I read the books in 2013. I have been defending her to nasty people ever since, and when I joined the ACOTAR fandom, the way people criticized Elain felt SO familiar. Which of course it did. These kinds of criticisms do not stop with Sansa and Elain. Most characters like them are disliked for being soft women with big hearts who are vulnerable to cruel people in their worlds.  

[mesillusionssousecstasy]

House of the Dragon 2x03: Review

I think the episode was very interesting even if it was the "worse" so far. Nevertheless the devil was in the details in this episode.

First of all, it was such a pleasure to have seen the conflict between Bracken vs Blackwood. Because I believe that those two houses are important for the ASOIAF's history.

We also have seen the aftermath of a war, with blood and bodies lying very where. It was perfect. To the liking of GRRM.

Rhaenyra is combing her hair with Visenya's braids.

Rhaenys would have been a great queen (but maybe also a bit weak), but I didn't like that she took Alicent's side. That didn't make sense at all.

The detail of the Hand's chair. Incredible.

I hate more and more Ser Criston Cole.

Aegon is still throwing tantrum during the council meeting.

There was a focus on Aemond's hand and the piece of money he was playing with (foreshadowing?).

It was some incredible picture when Seasmoke was flying in the sky during Mysaria and Rhaenyra's conversation.

Interesting does Mysaria's knows about dragon? And their loneliness after their rider's death?

There is the mention of two new dragons.

It's confirmed that Rhaena doesn't have a dragon yet.

Was it the God's eye showing before Harrenhal?

Speaking of Harrenhal, the castle is so devastated. It seems that everything in Harrenhal needs to die eventually.

The presence of weirwood trees is impressive.

Could you notice the sound or more likely the scream of burning people in the background when Daemon was inspecting the castel.

The visual of the castel was stunning.

Daemon was left with himself.

The detail of the different fire were incredible, for example with the lord's chair.

The place is so terrible.

I like this new Strong character, especially when he said to Daemon that Larys killed his father and brother.

This Strong mentioned again the battle between Bracken and Blackwood, and forgetting the why they hate each other so much.

It was a very interesting discussion during the supper at Harrenhal.

We meet Ser Gwayne Hightower finally, Alicent's brother. I thought he was younger in the book.

Alicent and Ser Cole are so hypocrite.

The hanged men are still at the same place.

I didn't like the dynamics about this episode, meaning it was men vs women.

There is definitively true love between Corlys and his wife Rhaenys.

It was interesting to see four dragon's eggs.

Did you notice that they put the song for kings while Rhaenyra told goodbye to her legitimate sons (foreshadowing).

I like very much Rhaena and Baela's sisterhood.

Did Helaena make a foreshadowing about baby?

Helaena's braid was incredible too.

She shouldn't have forgiven her mother at all.

Interesting to know that Aegon's armor still exists.

Layrs is a fucking liar.

Aegon II put a Maester of whispers inside the council.

Even the White Cloak are laughable, reflecting Aegon II's picture.

We are shown a lot of smallfolks' life in King's Lading.

Was it truly the son of Bealon the brave? Or more likely a foreshadowing of the dragonseed.

We know more about Aemond's fondness for Madam Sylvi. She was his first. Strange that they didn't put the theory of him and Helaena's forbidden relationship. Did you notice that they don't have any scene together.

I wasn't expecting this full frontal.

Sorry but Rhaenyra is so fucking weak in this episode. She is definitively not like the Rhaenyra in the book.

I loved seeing Baela taking some actions.

Finally, some high valyrian with Baela. She was the revelation in this episode.

Harrenhal is such a dope.

I really liked Daemon with loose hair.

And it's very interesting that they confirmed that Harrenhal is a magical place.

It felt so good to have seen young Rhaenyra again.

Daemon had a vision in front of the weirwood tree and then after the lady said that he would die here, said in front of a lake (prophecy).

Even the chandelier in Dragonstone are incredible.

Finally, the confrontation between Rhaenyra and Alicent never happened in the book. They weren't the same age and they were friend at all! Because it is completely stupid, unwise and foolish.

Or maybe it was a way of showing us how easy it is to enter to King's Lading.

Is it me of there is a Kristen Bell ressemblance when Rhaenyra was wearing the uniform of a septa.

This is something in the picture with all the candles and the rond.

Also the two characters were so in contradiction with each other. Back to the beginning but with inverted role.

Who's Alicent's mother? We never knew her.

I didn't understand Alicent suggesting to Rhaenyra concerning Aemond : "You know what Aemond it?" Meaning a monster ? a bastard?

But in the end it is such a terrible and sad story with an inescapable ending.

[baelonthebrave]

What you describe for aemond and Alys was beautiful but she was a prisoner of war I don’t think that they will make it into a romance but who knows

Thanks for the ask, I hope you don't mind me typing up a long-ass reply to this. I won't lie, I don't understand this idea in the fandom that alys was definitely a prisoner and therefore could not consent to the relationship with aemond at all. It's ONE possibility, yes, but it's one of many. I just don't think that F&B is reliable enough or gives us enough detail to make ANY decisions about the nature of their relationship. It is an in-universe historical account and is very biased against the Greens and Aemond in particular, due to when and for whom it was written, but even this heavily biased, unreliable source never accuses Aemond of forcing anything on Alys.

The things people usually point towards to back up this argument is 1) House Strong, Alys's family, is put to the sword by Aemond when he arrives at Harrenhal and 2) women in these situations (in ASOIAF and irl) are generally NOT consenting. That would make total sense if Alys was a run-of-the-mill highborn lady and any suggestion of romance between them would be repulsive, but she's not a run-of-the-mill highborn lady.

1) Alys is a bastard and we have absolutely no idea how she feels about House Strong. I think for show-only people there's this misconception that every highborn bastard is treated as part of the family like Jon Snow was by Ned and the Starklings, but this is very much the exception to the rule. The way Westeros generally treats its bastards is much more like how Cat treats Jon, not how Ned treats him. Bastards are a walking reminder to noble families that their honourable patriarch is fallible and sinful and human - they are generally not treated warmly. For all we know, Alys could despise House Strong, only living at Harrenhal for the relative security of her position or whatever nexus of magical power lies there, and she views Aemond's coming as her saving grace. It's also hinted at in s2 that Alys's magic is the reason Larys has clubfoot, it really doesn't seem like she has a cosy relationship with them and would particularly care if they died. Maybe she's glad when Aemond puts House Strong to the sword? Maybe she hates them, because they always regarded her with derision and fear? Or maybe she doesn't even take notice of them, they're so unimportant to her? We just don't know, we can't make any assumptions about how she feels about their deaths.

2) Alys has power that we can't even begin to understand. The magic of ASOIAF is very undefined and Alys is one of the only characters we see to have any control over it in any ASOIAF story - this automatically makes her one of the most powerful people we've seen in this world, on the level of Melisandre or Bloodraven. What we DO see of her power shows us that Alys is very capable of manipulating important men to her own ends. She did not want Daemon to challenge Rhaenyra for the throne, so she manipulated him by showing him visions of the people in his life he has mistreated and what needs to happen for the PTWP prophecy to come true. This doesn't seem like a woman that Aemond could make do something she didn't want to do. Daemon walks around Harrenhal in a stupor, not being able to draw the obvious line between the weird visions he's having and the creepy witch who's hanging around him - she has weapons that neither Daemon nor Aemond has any defence against. She bends men like them to her will, not the other way around.

In fact, I think for whatever argument there is to be made that Alys is the unwilling party in this relationship, there's an equal and opposite argument to be made that Aemond is the unwilling/manipulated one. This isn't my personal opinion but there IS an argument here. Aemond seems to all but ditch the war effort and undergo a major personality shift when he meets Alys in F&B, he's so under her thrall. A character that has up until now been described as basically sociopathic falls head over heels for a powerful witch to the point of abandoning his life's ambition - there is an argument to be made that THIS is Alys's magic, again interfering with the Dance to bring it to as swift a close as possible. Aemond & Vhagar are the backbone of the entire Green cause - wiping him off the board at the God's Eye is the major turning point in the war that causes things to start to wind down.

I personally don't think their relationship is purely one party forcing or manipulating the other - I think there could be genuine feeling between them. I don't think the love between them is uncomplicated or unproblematic, but I do think it is genuine. A kind of 'it didn't change anything, but it was there' love. I think it would make sense thematically for Aemond and start to tie up his arc.

This is all a very long-winded way of saying that I think drawing any conclusions about the nature of Alys & Aemond's relationship from F&B alone is premature - there just isn't enough canon information about it. And that's why I'm excited to see where they go with it, wherever they go with it. That's why I'm enjoying HotD so much. The main ASOIAF novels are so detailed that it set the path clearly for GoT every step of the way, but F&B is only a skeleton and it's up to the writers to give any and all context. We know that 1) Alys & Aemond were in a sexual relationship, 2) Aemond voiced feelings of love for Alys, and 3) there was a child. Beyond that, we know next to nothing. So I look forward to seeing what path they choose.

NB: I'm doing my best to talk about these possible consent issues as sensitively as I can, but please let me know if you think I haven't done that very well and/or overlooked something.

[lemonhemlock]

I think one of the most frustrating things about both the ASOIAF/HOTD fandom is the inability for people to discuss these characters or books without projecting their own personal/modern sensibilities. I've noticed this a lot with TB so targ nation in general, but they fundamentally hate the world building and lore of a feudal medieval monarchy. They hate tradition, they hate religion, they hate the concepts of honor and duty which is why they can't or won't understand Criston's character if their lives depended on it, they hate anything that can be deemed in anyway conservative, religious, traditional lol, they hate the inheritance laws preferring males, they hate that women have to stay chaste before marriage, they hate arranged marriages, they hate the fact that people care so much about bastards and that bastards cannot inherit, etc. I could go on. Yes, from a modern perspective a lot of these things are now deemed obsolete and uncool, but there were very good reasons for these things AT THE TIME. These people just hate the entire lore that this world is based on and instead of good faith engagement with the lore, they just call anyone who uses the world/lore to logically analyze the text a sexist, misogynist, tradcath, conservative, or whatever. It boggles my mind. Why interact with media, and not just interact with it, but have entire social media accounts dedicated to their hyper fixation and borderline parasocial relationship with these characters/books if they fundamentally hate the world and hate seeing their faves lose as a result of the rules in place. I'm begging these people to go read one of the thousands of fantasy books that isn't set in a rigid feudal monarchy.

This is such a spot-on, insightful comment into how a lot of people interact within this fandom. 👏👏👏 This typology of the late stage social justice internet warrior that fundamentally refuses to engage with the historicity of the story's spatio-temporal setting, i.e. a feudal medieval monarchy of European inspiration, that predates centralization and thus absolutism. Even though Westeros is so very obviously decentralized, many fans do not realize this for some reason and pretend it's an absolute monarchy a la Louis XIV.

Many people, like GRRM, who is a prolific science-fiction writer (!), are attracted to this setting regardless, because of the pageantry (look how obsessed he is with creating house sigils and mottos), the romantic flair + the fact that it's literally the setting of fairy-tales, which inspires in the reader a world of magical possibilities. Of course, the world of ASOIAF is an attempt to shore up the 'realism' of this imagological construct, but medieval fantasy is a genre in and of itself, like there are certain flavours of societal layering and organization that are inescapable, like the rigid social structures, the political rule as the purview of the elites, the importance of religion in everyday life etc.

This is not to say that those aspects are in any way aspirational for a modern person or that we should yearn to go back to those times, only that they are merely characteristics that developed hand-in-hand with the technological advancements and the economic progress of the period. If you have a civilisation whose economy is centered on land ownership as the main source of wealth acquisition, its society is going to look a certain way. Certainly, in Westeros there are some craftsmen and merchants, but there seem to only be a handful of towns throughout the entire continent and, off the top of my head, the mention of guilds and the middle classes are few and far between in the books, so there is no concrete way of determining how consolidated the bourgeoisie is. At the same time, this is absolutely just a story and not a 1:1 recreation of those times, so these gaps are completely understandable, as there only is so much worldbuilding one man can do.

Anyway, I often see analysis or commentary being circulated, which are obviously a projection of modern sensibilities, like how there should be no king at all or the Iron Throne is evil or how Westeros should revert to being separate kingdoms because somehow the concept of unifying regions with a common cultural and religious background is automatically bad, always and with no exception. To me these are rather perplexing, but they are so wide-spread that it's not even worth it to try and open up that particular can of worms. Some of these takes don't even make sense if you expand them to their natural implications. Someone has to be the king in a medieval society; it doesn't work like some people envision this - no one chooses to rule and that's that, problem solved? How is society going to be organized then? It's doubtful that the conclusion of the last book will be anarcho-socialism. The Iron Throne consistently cuts kings who are unworthy to sit on it - it's not a symbol that the author intended to be construed as malevolent. Sure, death of the author and all that, but it's not described as mystically quasi-sentient for nothing either. Fragmenting Westeros back into individual kingdoms while maintaining the feudal structure retains the inherent unfairness and inequality of said hierarchy; it's amazing to me how it could be considered progress etc.

To wrap this up, yes, I agree, some people would be much better served if they simply found other fantasy media based on a different time frame. Because it doesn't make sense to become so entrenched in this specific one if you hate the medieval period so much. Again, this is not to say that the Middle Ages cannot be criticised because that's just the way it was back then, they absolutely can, but a lot of criticism shared around is just done in bad faith and with no real desire to understand the historical phenomena at play.

For example, a few days ago, someone commented on one my bastardposts that "just because it was illegal doesn't make it fair", with the implied solution to that conundrum that Rhaenyra should simply be allowed by society to do whatever she pleased. No reflection on why that law/rule was in place to begin with, no consideration of how it would impact the wider community, no proposal as to how one could advance to a society in which all children are considered equal, regardless of their parents' marital status etc. The thought doesn't go beyond "feminism in its modern definition can magically crystallize in any historical period because it is completely divorced from the material conditions of a society".

[horizon-verizon]

While B&C is objectively horrifying, I’ve honestly never once felt any emotion when reading it… but Aerea’s death, oh my god, I was completely engrossed and taken back by the hideous, stomach-turning and repugnant description of her death.

👀

Aerea had to have had those fireworms crawl through her still-living body for days. Aerea's death was much more detailed, a lot more gory, and connects to one overarching and critical element, or "layer", of the ASoIaF series: the Targs' legacy with their dragons and the effect of the Valyrian's imperialism over Essos. Aerea's death brought a sense of doom because it alerted us and Jaehaerys of the Targs' vulnerability to forces that their own ancestors probably caused. And the account is very reliable, more so than most F&B accounts and certainly so for the Dance portion of the book. Its relater, Septon Barth, he's the one who tried to treat Aerea. And of all the "Faith-aligned professionals" we ever encountered in this world, he was the most dedicated to impartial study of the people and things around him. (Sincere about it, too, even though he does also factor in a few societal lens...because he still lives in Westeros and is still a septon.) So you know he was writing what he saw impartially.

Why do the Targs' relationship with their dragons & past AND their dragons' future matter? We (should) know and have read ASoIaF and read about Daenerys, how she becomes the Queen that she is meant to be to save the world. We have learned that something can hurt a dragon. We need dragons//fire for the Long Night & protect humanity. The Targs' assimilation into the Andal-FM pre-Conquest culture and subsequent refusal to better & truly incorporate their women into their politics--or just think outside of their own immediate needs for power, even with some being genuinely better people and leaders--have lead up to their own loss of said dragons, then their usurpation. It's a lead up to Daenerys in-world and re-contextualizes her role for the Long Night to come.

*However, reminder, yes the Targs' Conquest and reign still greatly reduced the thousands of years of constant warfare b/t the non Valyrian Westerosi former kingdoms. Two things, true at once.*

Whereas with Jaehaerys, the death served this one story to illustrate how far a specific group of people will go to destroy the other or get the other back for perceived/real wrongs done. Jaehaerys became a victim of a blood feud & another motive to keep that particular blood feud going. It's not even the first death, but a response to another's death done by the greens (Aemond), who decided to usurp the king-chosen heir, a woman, for their own ambitions. He is part of a succession of a drama. And while his 6 fingers generate some curiosity and inquiry as to what effects the magical connection to dragons have on disabilities/congenital conditions being more reduced--which Idk about, since the Westerosi have been marrying their cousins for centuries and most of the nobles we see aren't fugly nor have many congenital conditions to rival the Hapsburgs--this doesn't serve or inform us on the bigger story. Sad and tragic, but in terms of the scales of consequences, it had a simpler effect.

Ironically, he has less narrative importance than Nettles or Mysaria, whom some Rhaenyra & black stans try to argue was "just a plot device" 🙄 to use against Rhaenyra. Both within and out of Fire & Blood. Then there's the business of green stans being so overwrought & talkative over his death than the:

sack of Bitterbridge & rapes/murders (of refugees, of children, septas, old people, etc.)

sack of of Tumbleton & rapes/murders

Dalton Greyjoy's raping women and killing innocent peasants,

etc.

It is perhaps all of these that make Aerea's death seem both more harrowing and "important" than Jaehaerys'. Aerea's death is more shrouded in mystery, Jaehaerys' is not. Her death has a larger narrative purpose compared to his.

[tessarionbestgirl]

Moon tea is both like a morning after pill and an abortion pill.

To use it as a morning after pill, it has to be taken immediately. No longer than a week.

Hoster Tully forced Lysa to drink moon tea when he found out she was pregnant with Little Finger’s baby. Her abortion was very painful and traumatic for her.

Alicent was also in intense pain, so I think she was using it to force a miscarriage aka her medieval abortion. Criston has been gone for 2 weeks, Alicent is way past that window of time from their last sexual encounter to be using it like the morning after pill. Weeks have gone by since Viserys died and 2 weeks since Criston left and if they started having sex within days of Visery’s death, that is enough time to know you’re pregnant and begin experiencing symptoms. Alicent is a also 4 time mother, this would’ve been the 5th pregnancy.

I couldn’t tell when I got pregnant. My daughter is a birth control baby. I had a history of irregular periods and life long stomach issues. So I only thought to test when I was closer to 8 weeks but I’d been sick, exhausted and dying for weeks. I even had an appointment with my doctor scheduled for the day after I took the test and figured out myself why I felt like shit. Now with my second, I knew right away having it experienced it just one time before.

That's an interesting story, you right, Alicent is a experience mother and she would see the signs of pregnancy faster, I didn't consider that. But this a valid argument. So the short time doesn't unvalidated the possibility she took that as a form to cause miscarriage.

Whatever, I see miscarriage before caused by similar herbs, Alicent wouldn't be able to walk around the castle looking for books and get drunk if was actually abortion, as you said Lysa abortion was traumatic experience some people even speculate that her mad behavior was caused by moon tea. So if was actually abortion Alicent would have got a way more intense response for her body that we just saw. And the fact moon tea magical properties always bring a price for those that drank it. Magic in asoiaf universe always come with a price.

Although, I think both sides have valid point about it, I myself, I am conflicted on which theory to support, in part I always come back to being being a after pill, I also think makes to much sense being a abortion situation. I believe I will have to wait to see what this plot will lead to her character to have a concrete standard on this. Alicent over all arc, after all, is about a character that slowly looses her integrity and sanity while she slowly stripping her self of all her beliefs, integrity and decency for a war she will eventually loose everything she most loved.

Aborting a child for a religious woman like her at this point on the narrative, I can't say if is to early and ooc or it is on brand for her. Because while I can see though her eyes this being justified in the sense if we start from the idea that for her this is a life, but she has killed before after Larys for the sake of her family, so this isn't new. But she doing herself is a different story. This should at least bring a heavy emotional impact on her.

But this season have been weirdly when comes to those women experience trauma. Grief have been downplayed a lot. And from the characters the only one that showed slightly stronger impact, was Aegon.

If isn't abortion, if this is a contraceptive method for her could be also implied that this is something she takes in an habitual way, what could lead to questions regarding when she started that and why she started that, Is this all a form of prevention or did she end up being careless and causing her to actually become pregnant ( Daeron being a bastard) and now she is learned for her mistake?

I need see how this all will come together by ep7 and 8 because according with some rumors those are very important for Alicent and a lot will come together for her.

[befooremoonrisee]

random thoughts that i have about the vale because it's my favourite underrepresented region in asoiaf:

-does the arryn girl who was kidnapped by the mountain clans fit the whole bael the bard "mythos" and will she be important in the series?

-the vale had many female leaders, i think it has the most prominent women ruling besides dorne (and probably the most named ones). will sansa become one of their widow queen/lady at some point? how will the three sisters' common folk react to stark influence in the vale if sansa becomes regent?

-will alyssa's tears reach the valley at last? will they play some role or they were just there to further catelyn's themes?

-the royces were the first named house and they haven't done anything of remark yet. i want to know more about them. what does their armour mean? does it have powers? if so, it would be the first first man's magic artifact which is not directly associated to children of the forest. also, bronze is quite the opposite colour of the ice armour of the white walkers.

-the relationship between the royces and starks. i wanna see it developed.

-cannibal and nettles.

-mya stone needs more theories about her future. why can't she be the heir of storm's end when she's robert's oldest child and the paternity is clear. maybe she will get the moon gates at the end of the series? please grrm let her and sansa kiss at least one time.

-sweetrobin survives the series because of all the "cripple, bastards and broken things". i love that little child so much and i hate how the fandom reacts to an emotionally abused young boy.

-myranda royce is gonna become sansa's closest ally because i say so and it would subvert the "mean girl" trope. she was just married to an old guy and sansa is being groomed for that. she is the best character to help her deconstruct the harm petyr is doing.

[bbygirl-aemond]

Loved Chapter 30!!!! But I need answers!!!!

Who is Vhagar’s baby daddy???!!! 👀

It can’t be Vermithor bc he’s her son

Caraxes is toooo annoying

Sunfyre was at Kingslanding.

Seasmoke? Maybe? He seems chill and polite for a dragon? Maybe Vhagar has good memories of flying with him when Laena and Laenor were still alive?

Arrax and Vermax: just no…

So, I am left with a few alternative theories in order of rational plausibility:

1.) Vhagar mated with a wild dragon while at Dragonstone. The black egg suggests the Cannibal maybe? Or another dragon?

2.) These eggs are from a mating with Balerion, but Vhagar has simply refused to lay them until now because she wanted an appropriately important reason to do so. Her eggs only deserve the best after all!!!

3.) Miraculous conception. Another way the gods are showing their approval by blessing Rhanyera and her consorts with these eggs.

4.) Vhagar invented dragon asexual reproduction??? IDK it’s Vhagar!!! She can do whatever she wants if she’s determined to do so!!! I’d believe it.

So…who is it??? 👀 Please, the people need to know!!!

It's closest to #4! I subscribe to the theory that dragons are hermaphroditic and capable of asexual reproduction. I don't remember which specific Maester had this theory (I think Septon Barth? If so he was probably right because he was right about practically everything. There was also one other whose name I can't remember), but it's mentioned. Within the text, certain dragons are referred to by different pronouns at different time points, suggesting they can and do change their gender. And HotD seemed to confirm the asexual reproduction theory, because for all the discussion of egg-laying and clutches, there's never any mention of dragons mating and there's only ever mentions of one parent, not two.

I think this ties in nicely to the idea that the dragons' existence is reliant on magic. Most of the egg-laying that's mentioned throughout ASoIaF takes place when one or more Targaryen women are pregnant. We have vague information/implications that Targaryen women, and pregnancies in particular (dragon babies, anyone?), played a role in the blood magic of Old Valyria. It also adds more poetic depth to the fact that the downfall of the Targaryens and their dragons comes from repeated sidelining of their women such as Rhaenys and Rhaenyra.

So within Stormbreak, dragon reproduction is as follows: Dragons can change gender if they so wish, and they can reproduce asexually. But they will only lay eggs in one of two cases:

Their rider (who they're bonded with) is pregnant

Someone their rider is bonded to (in the Valyrian tradition) is pregnant

In this case, Vhagar is feeling extra fertile right now because... you guessed it... Rhaenyra is pregnant, and since they're both bonded to Aemond in the Valyrian way, they're kinda indirectly bonded to each other. There's definitely some type of wacky magical transference going on there. Caraxes would def be all up in the egg laying thing, but he's male at the start of the Dance and it takes time to transition, so... Vhagar beat him to it!

(The magic also scales with the number of babies in my mind, so since Rhaenyra is carrying multiples... it's enough magic to bring Vhagar out of dragon menopause is what I'm saying)

[thesilverlady]

It's a bit over the top to think that the maesters are behind every thing but what makes you think that?

Mostly due to the maester conspiracy theory which I'm in full support. in case you haven't heard it, let me summarize it a bit.

In asoiaf there are a few characters who express their distrust of the maesters. In A Dance With Dragons, Barbrey Dustin (who is a northern lady) calls the maesters “grey rats” and points out the fact that they hold a great deal of power over the lords they serve.

Maesters write and send all of the letters for their lords and they can very easily manipulate the words for their own ends. Barbrey suggests that the maesters orchestrated the events that led to Robert’s Rebellion and the displacement of the Targaryen dynasty.

The evidence for this is pretty scarce ofc, but it’s true that lords and ladies put blind faith in the maesters and trust them with pretty much everything, and we see that in f&b and before the conquest we're told how important the maesters are how all these kings and households relied on them for everything

Not to mention that the maesters are also directly in charge of the healthcare of their lords and have extensive knowledge of not only medicine, but also poison - which is also one of the reason why there are theories that some princes have been killed by them - like prince Baelon for example (because it was unlikely that Viserys wouldn't be named heir and him being young and trustful would be much more easy to control. Same theory goes for some targaryen women who all seem to die in childbirth - a place only maesters are allowed in. For the dance era there's the theory that Aemma was killed so Alicent could be made queen. Her family is from Oldtown - a place where the faith has the strongest hold and loyalty and these people have been trying to put a queen of their own since Maegor)

The conspiracy isn't rooted just on theories. There are hints in the books. For instance, in at the end of Feast for Crows, Sam Tarly arrives at the Citadel and meets Marwyn the Mage, an archmeaster known for his eccentric behavior and expertise in magic. Marwyn is somewhat of a pariah at the Citadel because of his dabbling in the magical arts, and because he spent years in the mysterious city of Assai.

Who do you think killed all the dragons the last time around? Gallant dragonslayers armed with swords? The world the Citadel is building has no place in it for sorcery or prophecy or glass candles, much less for dragons.

in f&b, there are maesters who narrate the story and they don't hide how ill they think of the Targaryens, their magical blood or dragons. They prize logic, reason and power above all else. They are distrustful of all things magical and wondrous, which is why it's believed they've been trying to bring down the Targaryens.

After everything that happened with Maegor the Cruel, they realized aggressive stance wouldn't get them anywhere. So they made "peace" with Jaehaerys and tried to stir him with influence - which worked pretty well and kept working for years after.

if you're interested in reading more about the conspiracy I'm going to link a very interesting reddit thread from 2012 that goes into full detail about it 💕

[cloudberry-sims]

I'm behind with the queuing , so here's some random facts about Hopebury/Simvaria✨

🧡 Simvaria's capital , Watcherholm , is based of Stockholm. Which is if you don't know , a archipelago. Hopebury is part of the archipelago and in my mind takes a day and a half to travel with boat. I was originally going to play in Watcherholm and do the Ye Olde Royal Kingdom Challenge , but I got overwhelmed with all the prep-work and decided to down-scale.

🧡 Simvaria , unlike some other kingdoms in the world, allows the practice of magic and arcane arts , but only for those who went to school. Meaning peasants and yeoman aren't allow to use magic , at least not in legally. Other supernaturals are shunned and sometimes actively hunted by specific "guilds".

🧡I believe that Hopebury will become a duchy once the medieval charter challenge is officially finished. I don't see the monarch ruling from a ity bity island , but maybe a third or fourth born child. Less important but still royal , ya know?

🧡 This is how I imaged Hopebury coat of arms looks like (I used CK3 btw).

🧡 All the sims I made for this challenge uses the Academia Palette by @serindipitysims , because it's my favorite color palette ❤ Although I'm running out of colors 😅 So I been looking at the gradient version for inspiration and pin point the RGB in a document to make a slightly darker or muddier version , just until I find another palette I like as much.

🧡 Simvaria has a male preference inheritance law, meaning the eldest son inheritance before daughters. But it's just that , a preference, meaning it can be overlooked.

🧡 Simvarian names are heavily inspired by halflings from " The Witcher" , hobbits from "Lord Of The Rings" and D&D, as well as various medieval names and westerosi names from the "ASOIAF" universe.

🧡 Marriage in Simvaria is extremely important. Unmarried men and women are less socially secured compared to their married or widowed counterparts. Unmarried men are often forced to join the simvarian military/fleet and woman are less likely to earn money , if no family support ending up in almshouses or brothels. It is why a lot of simvarians end up in either arranged marriages by their parents or get married by convince as young adults - some marriages ending happy and some are just straight out of hell.

[randomnameless]

It's funny that the “dead siblings” aspect of Edelgard's backstory manages to, in spite of how under-developed and under-written it is, be so wildly contradictory that the only way for it to make any sense with the rest of what we know about her past is to assume that she made all that up in order to gain sympathy points from Byleth; it's almost certainly not what the writers intended, and i don't doubt for a second that Hopes contradicts that theory somewhere, but whatever makes Fódlan make more sense.

Apparently in Nopes they don't know they died or it's just a "rumour"?

Then what, they were all hiding or partying very far away, when their sister became Emperor, over Hans 2's claim? Seriously?

I don't really understand the obsession the devs had with making Adrestia a muddled mumbo jumbo -

we are told Ionius tried to centralise power on itself, the lolcalisation tried to erase it but we're in 2023 : Ionius wanted to get rid of the consort kin system, women feel like they can't inherit a thing, the Emperor (at least the one during the Southern Church incident) takes very badly any "revolts" and get rid heirs he doesn't like, personally appoints people, Ionius erased Hyrm (to the last blood descendant!) and sent his army and funky mages to Ordelia - outside of Adrestia!

Some nobles like to hear young women "sing" and if they can't pay for "singing lessons" they will pay for young men instead.

Adrestian Nobles, unlike their northern barbarian counterparts, stay holed up in their capital, and rarely return to their duchies/lands/territories.

The devs, from this, tried to paint a land where corruption is rampant, a sort of epitome of decadence complete with ASOIAF's "if you need to say you're the king chances are no one thinks you are the king" with Ionius's bids to centralise power on himself, in a nutshell : this Adrestia is rotten, the decadent version of the one sang about in praises or mentionned in old legends.

And yet, even if they describe the land as completely bonkers and everyone more or less is in for their own hide... Adrestian Nobles, the very same ones we're told hired Doro to hear her song, cannot be depicted too badly, because, hey, we're working with them.

Sure, we don't hear Leopold and Waldemar went to the brothel - i mean to the Opera - to hear popular young songstresses sing. But Leopold'n'Waldemar were depicted as corrupt nobles, only in for their money or own gain as the reason why they sided with Aegir to get rid of Ionius, and from what we know of Leopold, he wasn't picking roses and daisies in Brigid too.

And yet, because they magically became allies of Supreme Leader, all the issues that could be laid at the feet of Imperial Nobles, especially theirs as the most important nobles of them all, are... absent.

No one ever asks Leopold'n'Waldemar were are the other imperial children, or why they betrayed Ionius. No mention of Leopold, the Minister of War and a seasoned fighter, having personally trained Hans 2 or maybe acknowledging his talents as a warrior - or lack of compared to Supreme Leader's, no, nothing.

Asking Leopold why Caspar isn't his heir, even if he doesn't have a crest, since he shown great abilities to fight? No, never.

In the end, we see those crap nobles, but we never tell anything or do anything with them. Ionius was yeeted away in Nopes (maybe because including Ionius in the story, who was betrayed by Leopold'n'Waldemar, wouldn't have worked with the idea of making them Supreme Leader's allies) and Aegir is never given any voice to the chapter, or when he is, it's to be a living retcon - he wanted to take part, just like Leopold'n'Waldemar, in Supreme Leader's MAGA war, when he rebelled against Ionius who centralised power on himself? To MAGA? - because nothing should "taint" our vision of the heroine.

FE16 already teased Supreme Leader's version of the Insurrection being horse dung when Hanneman told Hubert he doesn't know what Vestra Sr rebelled, and how Vestra Sr rebelled because there was something, rather, someone, more important to him than eons of loyalty to the Hresvelg family.

Is it the same "reason" that made Arundel, when he was still Volkhard, put his niece to safety - in the kingdom !!! - with her mother, before being Slithered.

Those clues, complete with the Ferdie paralogue in SS - of course unavailable in CF - reveal that while Ludwig is a piece of slime, he isn't the piece of slime depicted by Supreme Leader (that'd be her Uncle) ; hell, all of Ludwig's actions (both in that paralogue and the experiments on the Hresvelg kids) were done by Thales, with Ludwig as his scapegoat.

So why? What is the truth behind the Insurrection, and behind Ludwig's role?

Is Adrestia deliberately "opaque" to make "the world look deeper" than it is, or because it's supposed to imply Mole People slithering around made the thing "way too complicated"?

Or is it because the more we learn about Adrestia - and what led to Ionius being deposed - the more we realise Supreme Leader's words are, at best, misguided, at worst, straight out lies?

But in the process of "muddling" everything, coherence and consistency was sacrificed, Hans 2 disappeared and the plot dgaf - heck people don't know what happened to the other imperial children, and no one every bats an eye at this, especially since the Emperor was not the first, nor the second in line (and Supreme Leader isn't supposed to be like Ashnard who might fed people who ask those questions to Rajaion, or just straight out tell them the truth before laughing).

I still believe they exist, but since Jugdral, the FE series had issues writing "missing royal siblings" having any signification to the plot - bar being a late hour "Falchion with legs" - even if I HC that Julia isn't killed when her unit dies in the 2nd gen because the Imperial Army recognises her and captures her to return her to Arvis (they rescue her from those Isaachian barbarians!)

And yet, again, compared to Glen, Hans 2's absence stings, and it's, again, an example of coherence and logic being sacrificed for the sake of parasocial relationships.

It sucks.