#with the lack of nuclear families in the jedi order

[vashti-lives]

After vague blogging about fanfic and YA I will say that the issue of media for teens mixing poorly with all ages and adult media is not a problem exclusive to fanfic writers. 90% of the conflict in the star wars fandom stems from the fact that star wars’ YA and children’s media is to some degree canonically and philosophically incompatible with the mainline movies. In the movies the Jedi are unequivocally the heroes and we’re supposed to respect them even as they get backed into a terrible corner. They’re wise heroes doing their best.

In the media made for kids by necessity the adults of the Jedi order have to make absolutely wild and absurd decisions in order for the kid protagonists to get chances to do heroic stuff actual kids would find fun and exciting. This naturally puts their behavior at odds with the goals of the movies.

Add in that the movies don’t hold up to close reads because they’re intended to be fun summer blockbusters, and the fact that the Jedi are based on a fairly shallow understanding of a non-western collectivist lifestyle without nuclear families which is extremely foreign to western audiences and what do you get? Decades worth of discourse over whether the Jedi are actually good guys which can never be resolved because they're based on completely different ways of analyzing media. Worse, nobody can agree on what parts of star wars should be counted in the first place so even if you're analyzing things in the same style you might still be doomed.

[merrysithmas]

We know Anakin and Obi-Wan’s relationship as Mater and Apprentice had many blurred lines. Obi-Wan often felt like the roles were revered or straight up non-existent because of Anakin’s natural power. So their relationship was very different from the typical dynamic. They very much became equals. How different from the standard would you say Anakin & Ashoka’s relationship is? And how does it differ from Anakin’s relationship/experience with Obi-Wan?

i really love this question. yes, anakin and obi-wan's dynamic was more a match of polarized equals. anakin was "too old" to be a student, and obi-wan was "too young/inexperienced" to be a teacher. both their father figure (Qui gon) died and left them in kind of a Brothers-Raising-Each-Other type manner.

i'll also go out on a limb and say Ahsoka and Anakin's dynamic was different (in a way) from usual Master-Padawan dynamics and i say this because ANAKIN HIMSELF was different in a way no other Jedi was, and therefore any dynamic within the strictures of the Order involving Anakin is going to be inherently deviated from the standard.

although i believe all Master-Padawan dynamics differ depending on the pair (some more like siblings, others more parental, others more career-minded and mentorly) i don't consider Masters to be "raising" their Padawans by any stretch of the imagination. the Jedi culture did not work in that way - they were a communal culture and did not have nuclear family units or "parents". so when i see ppl say "Obi-wan raised Anakin" or "Qui gon raised Obi-wan" i very, very much disagree with that. that is just not the nature of that assignment.

so that leads me to how i REALLY do think Anakin thrives in a family environment, and therefore "corrupts" his Jedi associations (Obi-wan, Ahsoka) with a blatant overt familial emotional link that is very much un-Jedi-like, but also very endearing, affecting, and emotionally pleasurable/safe for those involved.

Anakin, by letting his need for close emotional association bleed into his Jedi life (because of his cruel separation from Shmi), actually arguably improves the lives of Obi-wan and Ahsoka, though it is in harsh contrariness to Jedi Code. Something that Obi-wan in particular grapples uncomfortably with - he is often at odds with the intense love he devleops for Anakin (which is why he is so strict with him and strict with himself!).

(To digress, I'd say that as a demi-god agent of the Force, Anakin's need for an emotional anchor in Jedi training is a suggestion that it is something the Jedi lacked and needed to improve).

So where Obi-Ani become equals and partners (perfect word for them), for Ahsoka and Anakin I'd say he blatantly treats her like his daughter. Anakin sees himself as Ahsoka's young dad, protecting her and teaching her how to defend herself out in the universe. At the very least he is her older brother, her friend, but there are definitely fatherly overtones. It's in the nature of the Jedi culture to mix many types of emotional bonds. And although the fatherly-type of POV Anakin has towards his Padawan is not Jedi-Brand Acceptable, it makes Anakin a better person. And it makes Ahsoka a better person.

Anakin's best self comes out when he is a father - and his role with Ahsoka is the precursor to his adoration we see Vader have towards Luke. The married-esque dyad/bond partner-like affections he grows to form with Obi-wan reflect his relationship with Padme and how he is also made stronger when being a husband. He feels stable and safe and purpose-driven for his loved ones and their cause.

I'd say overall the difference btw Anakin & Obi-wan's partnership and Anakin & Ahsoka's is that Anakin + Obi were cast as equals from the start - not in age or demeanor but in situation and inexperience. They grew as brothers-in-arms and juggled with a strange dynamic in which neither really trusted or believed in the abilities of the other (and had a separate reason for tolerating one another- qui gon).

Anakin believed Obi-wan didn't want to train him, was jealous of him (because Qui gon chose him), and that he was being held back because of Obi-wan specifically. Obi-wan believe he wasn't capable of training Anakin, that he needed to appear older and wiser than his years to keep up with the expectations of the council and a new Padawan. They butt heads.

Anakin grows and eventually sees Obi-wan as a person, not a roadblock. He sees Obi-wan is also at the mercy of the Council and his indignation shifts from his former master to the source of the institution itself. He sees Obi-wan is often in agreement with him, feels relief from that, and they get close.

By the time TCW came around, their growing pains all but disappeared and the rivalry they shared grew into an intense friendship and partnership that plainly textually outshines Anakin's relationship with Padme. Anakin clearly loves Obi-wan. He loves fighting in a war. He loves being a hero. He never wants it to end because that means that close borne-of-war constant partnership with Obi-wan might end. It means the Jedi Order might take away something else he wants more than anything. And for Obi-wan's part, he enacts the Rako Hardeen arc to convince himself he isn't as attached to Anakin as Anakin is to him -- he doesn't succeed.

Where Anakin sees Obi-wan as a partner, he sees Ahsoka as someone under his wing. He loves her, comes to see her as her own person and admires her even as Vader. I'd say the big dead giveaway that he sees Ahsoka as his "daughter" is that he literally raises her with Obi-wan in this strange War Context. As I said before this is very much NOT the Jedi way (no nuclear families) but in the War much flies under the radar and Anakin craves that family unit.

He sees Obi-wan as a part of him, and Ahsoka as a part of them.

Ahsoka is the baby of he and Obi-wan's combined philosophies (as depicted in the Mortis Arc). She is precious to him not only because of what a stellar individual she turned out to be - but because she is "made" of he and Obi-wan together.

In fact, I'd argue this is very much a clear reason why she couldn't fit in the Order. She was a perfect Jedi. Perfectly balanced. Perfectly taught. Power (Ani) tempered by thoughtfulness (Obi), kindness (Ani) tempered by tact (Obi), quick action tempered by training, fairness tempered by judgement.

The Order, as an Institution at that point which was kowtowing to the Senate, simply could not live up to the standard she set.

I think it's pretty emotionally fulfilling to see her say "I am no Jedi" to Vader himself! She left the Order, as he did. Is critical of it, as he is. She is very much his Padawan.

But unlike Vader/Anakin, she retained her goodness. A jolt to Vader's consciousness. Yes, maybe the Jedi Order was wrong ... but does that mean he has to be, now, too?

Her last actions with Vader in Rebels mirror Luke's in ROTJ.

She calls out to him, refuses to leave him.

Obi-wan & Anakin are equals who form an intense love-based partnership based on a warsome youth, and unparalleled training situation. Their dynamic is a fighting amalgamation between brotherly, rivalry, older-sibling-as-the-parent sprinkled in, suspicion... which all eventually, miraculously, snowballs into the kind of love two soldiers have. No-One-Else-Gets-Us and What-We-Went-Through. And they're right. Their odd training dynamic. Their life at war. Becoming inseparable co-generals of a major offensive for years while The Republic ignores the war & the Jedi serve the Senate. Forgetting the Code in the dark ends of the Outer Rim when they are tired and alone. Obi and Ani become a well-rounded, in-step partnership in every sense. Maybe even a dyad.

Anakin's effuse affection for Obi-wan muddles Obi-wan's understanding of the Code because he, too, loves Anakin in return so much he eventually chooses Anakin over all else (through protecting Luke). He sees his truth apart from the Order he grew up in.

Anakin & Ahsoka are another pair where Anakin's affections & need for family bleed into the dynamic. Instead of being strictly student-teacher he forms a parental (with Obi-wan!) bond to her. There are also elements of a respected friendship, brotherly affection, and a plain admiration.

Ahsoka-Obi-Anakin purposefully and directly reflects Luke/Leia-Padme-Anakin in the narrative.

It shows Anakin's two "families", two partners, two sets of children, and the two lives he feels he must unfairly choose between.

He duplicated what he truly wanted under two sets of conditions (a family, a loving partner, children), but under the circumstances he can never have both, and it starts to drive him insane ... this thought of leaving one or the other.

it's up to the viewer to decide which better suited him, if any at all. and what meta influence his demi-god status had on the Order & Senate through these actions of his.

[thejakeformerlyknownasprince]

So you've been answering some questions about the Star Wars novelizations, and I'm wondering if you have a suggestion for getting started on the series/what order to read things in?

1. Read the Revenge of the Sith novelization by Matthew Stover.  It’s out of print, but many libraries (and their apps) have it, as does Bookshop.Org.

2. Stop there.

Sorry to dismiss the entire Expanded Universe, but... it varies in quality.  A lot.  Some of the novels are well-written and well-characterized (Truce at Bakura, the Thrawn trilogy).  Some are less well-characterized but still bitingly funny in their social commentary (Courtship of Princess Leia).  Some are well-liked by fans even though I don’t get the appeal (New Jedi Order).  Some are... none of the above (Vector Prime).

There are also a lot of decisions within the EU that I profoundly dislike.  Han and Chewie’s friendship gets reduced to “Chewie owes Han a life debt”.  Everyone ends up in super-nuclear family structures, which the male characters neglect for months on end while off having adventures.  The White Current would be okay, I guess, if it didn’t discard and then instantly re-invent basically every aspect of the Force.  The twins’ mother appears a handful of times as an Angelic Paragon of Pure Womanhood that will simultaneously make you gag on the sexism and wonder what the everloving fuck she saw in Darth Vader.  Anakin Solo manages to be — much as this is hard to believe — even more obnoxious than Kylo Ren.

The other movie novelizations are also sadly lacking, especially the ones by George Lucas himself.  Much ink has been spilled about the man being a brilliant storyteller but a terrible writer, and I cannot help but agree.

[gffa]

Hi!  I went through a similar phase as several of you--I never really connected the dots between my own aro/ace qualities and my gravitating towards the Jedi culture until someone else pointed it out and then everything just sort of clicked together in my head in a way that made so much sense. And I think it can be really useful to view the Jedi through this lens of aro/ace culture, not because people are obligated to agree to this interpretation (they absolutely are not obligated to do so!) but because it provides a framework of reference for why not being drawn to romance and/or sex is not a foundational flaw in characters.  That there might even be an entire group of people who find that to be really satisfying and fulfilling--I mean, look at how many people gravitated to this discussion (or were already here) in just one day on one person’s blog on one social media platform.  It’s not hard at all for me to think, yeah, I’m looking at us building aro/ace culture of our own, it’d be easy for an in-universe group of people to do the same, and the lack of romance and/or sex wouldn’t be them suppressing their feelings or lacking something fundamental about the human condition, either. That’s part of why the Jedi mean a lot to me--there are other things as well, I greatly value their “face the shit within yourself, acknowledge that shit, and then let that shit go, because holding onto it is poison that will hurt you”, as someone who came to the same conclusions long before I was ever a Star Wars fan.  I love the worldbuilding, I love the psychic space wizards aspects, I love how goddamned extra they are about everything, etc. But a culture that not only doesn’t prioritize romance/sex, but actively values other things and finds meaning in those things?  That we see they have friendships and connections all over the place, that they find joy and meaning in teaching their students (and learning from their students, just as much as they teach them), that they find joy in helping others and protecting others, that they love through different ways, that they love the galaxy around them, they love their brothers and sisters in the Force, that they love their community and their culture?  That they just don’t seem to really want love and romance? Even those that do feel romantic feelings (setting Anakin aside, of course) still find the Jedi path to be a fulfilling one.  Obi-Wan may have had romantic feelings for Satine (which was apparently fine, it’s about his commitment and where he places it, I’m pretty sure that was the whole point of the Obi-Wan/Satine relationship, to be a narrative foil for Anakin/Padme, where Anakin does prioritize his feelings for Padme over his morals and judgement, which results in disaster of epic proportions) but he is a fully realized character without them.  He loves--we see that with Qui-Gon, Ahsoka, Luke, Anakin--that he cares deeply, that he’s a compassionate person, that he lives a life that he considers satisfying.  He becomes a Force Ghost and we can see him looking out over Endor, at the things that have finally been set back to rights, and he’s happy. Even within canon, the Jedi that feel restless and like something is wrong in this galaxy, they’re not restless because they want romance/sex, but because they want to do more as Jedi.  They want to help more people, they want to do more good in the galaxy, and do you know how much that means to me?  That even those who are dissatisfied (setting aside those that leave the Jedi Order because they want to have romantic relationships, which are treated warmly by the Order and by the people who left, like Tula’s grandmother) don’t have to be shoved back into the same box so many mainstream properties shove the characters into?  That it’s not about how, oh, they want traditional nuclear families, but instead that they want MORE of what the Jedi are--more love as shown through service to others, more love as shown through helping others. Do you know what a relief it is to have a group of people who find fulfillment in the same kind of things that I do?  Friendships and helping others and learning/teaching about the galaxy around them and self-reflection/understanding and accomplishments the like?  That these are treated, not just as valuable, not even just as valuable, but more valuable to these specific people?  Without demonizing that they’re totally cool with other people wanting romantic love?  DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH THAT MEANS TO ME? DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH IT MEANS THAT THE JEDI DON’T REALLY SEEM INTERESTED IN ROMANCE OR SEX AND INSTEAD FIND SATISFACTION IN OTHER THINGS?  THAT IT’S NOT ABOUT SUPPRESSING YOURSELF, BUT THAT PEOPLE SOMETIMES JUST REALLY DON’T CARE ABOUT THOSE THINGS.  SOMETIMES EVEN LARGE GROUPS OF PEOPLE. That the Jedi aren’t just “hey, this one Jedi can be read as aro/ace, that’s neat” but instead the Jedi said, “Hey, how about an ENTIRE CULTURE that vibes hard with aro/ace culture?”  That it’s the one mainstream culture that I can think of that really can be interpreted to say, “You’re not just an outlier, but YOU’RE THE NORM in this fictional society.”  Do you know what kind of value that has to me, as someone who only has the tiniest scraps of representation for this character or that character who maybe might be like me, but are rarely confirmed and are almost always The Different One?  Do you know what kind of value it has to me that it’s not just one or two of them, but that THE CULTURE ITSELF is where I would fit in?  That they built an entire society where nearly all of them seem to be Like Me? AN ENTIRE SOCIETY OF PEOPLE I WOULD FIT IN WITH? Which isn’t even getting into the worldbuilding specifics that are so much fun to play with--like, can you imagine what it would be like to have this psychic connection to this vast field of energy in the cosmos?  To be able to sense the feelings of others around you, to feel their presence even when they’re halfway across the galaxy, to just know what they’re feeling?  To be constantly surrounded by the lights of those souls that are gently nudging up against your own?  The warmth and peace of the Jedi Temple that isn’t just what you see/hear/touch, but also what permeates your very thoughts, the soothing balm on your soul that it would be? Can you imagine what it would be like to have this in your head all the time?

A familiar sense of warmth, of belonging, of finding himself part of an endless lattice of connections that held him and everything else, each fixed in its proper place.  A Force. Romance and sex can be wonderful.  But they are not the sole defining qualities of what it means to be sentient or what it means to be fulfilled.  The Force being described as an endless lattice of connections and warmth, that sounds incredibly wonderful and human to me, that sounds incredibly fulfilling and like everything I could possibly want. That is what the Jedi seek and have found.  That is the foundation of their culture.  That is the culmination of their lives. This is why their relationships are so wonderful and I’m so glad that the iconic Jedi relationships, whether we as fans turn towards shipping them or not, whether we joke about how much you can read into them or not, are ones that are all about other aspects that are just as epic and important. Obi-Wan’s most iconic relationships are with Luke, Anakin, Qui-Gon, Ahsoka.  They’re all incredible ones and it’s not to disparage his feelings for Satine (I love them as a pairing, too!), but that his character is defined more by familial and platonic relationships being just as galaxy-shaking as romantic ones might have been in another story?  That means a lot to me. Anakin is, of course, driven by his romantic relationship with Padme, but think about how important his relationships with Obi-Wan and Ahsoka are, ones that don’t have to be seen through the lens of romance.  That the ultimate climax of the prequels was Anakin’s fight with Obi-Wan, a familial connection.  That the ultimate climax of TCW was about Ahsoka’s relationship with Anakin, another familial/platonic connection. Ahsoka is a rising star in the SW franchise and her most iconic connections are with Anakin and Rex, both of which do not have to be interpreted through the romantic/sexual lens, that are complete just as they are presented.  That even when she can no longer be a Jedi, even when that possibility is stolen from her, she still doesn’t need to be defined through romance or sex. Yoda has many important, iconic relationships and is such a central character to the mythos and mythology of Star Wars.  His relationship with Luke is one of the most foundational of the OT, his relationship with Obi-Wan is important when you dig further into the supplementary material, his relationship with Anakin creates some of the most memorable scenes of the prequels.  All without ever having him desire a girlfriend.  Hell, the movies had Yaddle right there and you know what?  She wasn’t Yoda’s girlfriend, he wasn’t her boyfriend, that’s not what they were to each other, because they didn’t really seem to have any desire for that. THAT’S ONE OF THE REASONS I LOVE THE JEDI.  They show compassion and care and love all over the place, but they do it through George Lucas’ views on how people should strive to be, and they do it not through romance, but through friendship and helping others and seeking greater understanding of self-knowledge and artistry through the Force, and none of that should ever make them lesser, just as aromantic and asexual people seeking those same things does not make them lesser. We are people who love just as much as anyone else, we have fulfilling and wonderful lives, I don’t know any aro/ace person who would really even want to change themselves, we find ourselves to be perfectly fantastic the way we are.  I don’t feel some part of me is missing, I don’t feel I’m less interesting because I’m aro/ace, I love being the way I am.  I love how much my friends and family mean to me, I love how much joy I get out of caring for animals or helping other people or even simply yelling about Star Wars with them.  My connections to people are just as wonderful as anyone else’s, regardless of how they’re not in the romantic/sexual category. And, so too are the Jedi.

[twilight0wanderer]

As a former EU nerd, I figured I’d toss my two cents in.

To second Sol, the RotS novelization is an excellent stand-alone novel to read, especially for someone whose prior exposure is limited to the movies.  It’s a wonderful novel and well worth the read.  It’s also rather unrepresentative of the Legends EU as a whole.

To answer the original question, the traditional answer has been to start with the Thrawn Trilogy (Heir to the Empire, Dark Force Rising, The Last Command) by Tim Zahn, since those were the start of the classic EU period, establish a number of ideas, locations, characters, etc. that would become major or recurring aspects of the EU, and are a bit more representative of what to expect.

With that said, I started back in 2000 with The Hutt Gambit by A C Crispin and Dark Tide: Onslaught by Mike Stackpole, and read almost everything else out of order based on what my local libraries/used book stores had in stock, so order isn’t a requirement.  The exception is for the later published tight continuity series (New Jedi Order, Legacy of the Force, Fate of the Force), which would definitely be more confusing to start in the middle of.  Also, I’ve not kept up with the current EU, so I don’t have any input there.

(Side note: I don’t have time for a more complete discussion right now, but I have another post waiting for a reply where I plan to discuss most of the EU novels in brief and give some recommendations.  I’ll link it here once I write it up.)

To Sol’s main point, the Legends EU is wildly varied in quality and your mileage will definitely vary.  Most of that was down to the wide array of authors contracted to write the novels, the varying levels of continuity adhered to during the different phases of publication, and the increasing amounts of editorial and corporate intervention as time went on.

There’s also the fact that 2 of the 3 eras of publication happened before the prequels were released, and while that in-universe time period was off-limits to authors, they did still allude to events and characters (e.g. Luke and Leia’s mother) that weren’t developed yet.  This meant restrictions on characterization as well as lingering dissonance where elements didn’t line up exactly.

Past that, it really comes down to the authors and their understanding (or more often lack thereof) of characters, concepts, and themes.  The various expansions on the Force (White Current, Aing-Tii Spectral Philosophy, etc.) had a lot of potential but were poorly developed and inconsistently applied.  A lot of authors also didn’t really know what to do with certain characters, especially the assorted children and Chewie, which led to them often getting written out (send the kids to a safehouse) or pushed to the background (Chewie).

I will say that I don’t remember family men abandoning their families for months to go on adventures, with one exception and one caveat.  Han and Leia both tend to play central roles, and as mentioned that tended to get their kids written out as being sent to some safehouse or other for protection so that the author didn’t have to develop or show the family dynamic, which is disappointing.  Outside of that, most of the characters don’t marry as early as Leia and Han, and they generally waited longer to have kids as well (again from what I remember).  Since most of the characters (men and women) are some combination of military, government, Jedi, intelligence, smuggler, etc. the nature of their employment dictates periods of separation, and usually both sides of a given couple will be engaged somehow in a given crisis (with a couple frustrating exceptions, e.g. I, Jedi).  The caveat is that for all the ensemble casts, the main protagonists do tend to be overwhelmingly male, and it would have been nice to have more books where the women got to take center stage rather than being busy behind the scenes.

As for the super-nuclear families, that’s certainly a frustration, which I mostly attribute to editorial constraints (and the lack of Diane Duane).

Short version: Star Wars Legends can be a very enjoyable read, but has plenty of issues as well.  Personally, I was glad when Legends was split off from Canon, because it meant I could ignore all the bits I didn’t care for and no one could tell me otherwise.

P.S. Sol, if you see this and are willing to expand on The Courtship Of Princess Leia, I’d love to hear your thoughts on it.  I remember loving it as a kid, but my recent impressions of it are that the social commentary wouldn’t have aged well (admittedly it’s probably been 15+ years since I’ve read it).

So you've been answering some questions about the Star Wars novelizations, and I'm wondering if you have a suggestion for getting started on the series/what order to read things in?

1. Read the Revenge of the Sith novelization by Matthew Stover.  It’s out of print, but many libraries (and their apps) have it, as does Bookshop.Org.

2. Stop there.

Sorry to dismiss the entire Expanded Universe, but... it varies in quality.  A lot.  Some of the novels are well-written and well-characterized (Truce at Bakura, the Thrawn trilogy).  Some are less well-characterized but still bitingly funny in their social commentary (Courtship of Princess Leia).  Some are well-liked by fans even though I don’t get the appeal (New Jedi Order).  Some are... none of the above (Vector Prime).

There are also a lot of decisions within the EU that I profoundly dislike.  Han and Chewie’s friendship gets reduced to “Chewie owes Han a life debt”.  Everyone ends up in super-nuclear family structures, which the male characters neglect for months on end while off having adventures.  The White Current would be okay, I guess, if it didn’t discard and then instantly re-invent basically every aspect of the Force.  The twins’ mother appears a handful of times as an Angelic Paragon of Pure Womanhood that will simultaneously make you gag on the sexism and wonder what the everloving fuck she saw in Darth Vader.  Anakin Solo manages to be — much as this is hard to believe — even more obnoxious than Kylo Ren.

The other movie novelizations are also sadly lacking, especially the ones by George Lucas himself.  Much ink has been spilled about the man being a brilliant storyteller but a terrible writer, and I cannot help but agree.