#which when I really chew on it isn't AS nuanced as it seems

[snackugaki]

chewing through my feelings about #150 and my baby girl

[joltai-showa]

This post is a reply to these two posts, so if you wanna see me go insane over how Kishimoto completely managed to fail at writing Obito aka the villain that was the main threat for the majority of Naruto and Rin, do check them out first.

So PSA before continuing reading this: I will be replying to both posts consequetevely, which means that there's likely gonna be a bunch of stuff repeated. I don't like to sound like a broken record, but so many of my issues with Obito, Rin and Obirin crash into certain stuff that it's important to bring it up whenever it is needed.

And yes, I really dislike Obirin. On a good day for me this ship brings me as much excitement as drinking plain room-temperature water and chewing on some stale soggy white bread. It's a ship of the worst variety to me - it's simply boring, a good awkward boy and a good nice girl who's entire life seems to revolve about being emotional support pillow for said boy. And that's on a good day, because the manga aka canon generally isn't having a good day when it comes to the writing of these two, so these characters and their ship as it stands in canon requires the reader to switch between ignoring approximately 90% of what Obito does and approximately 50% of Rin does to get to the perception of cutesy doomed love that Kishimoto desperately wants to peddle. If the reader does not follow what Kishimoto wants to tell them (but isn't capable of showing at all), then what actually ends up happening is two psychotic bipolar little maniacs blabbering about some senseless bullshit that results in about a hundreds of thousands of people dead for ABSOLUTELY no reason.

(and yes if you have never come across my posts previously, I am prone to swearing, it is not some sort of agression against you or anything, this is simply how I am used to writing my own analysis posts)

so let's start with @innovativestruggles points:

I have always been an avid obirin shipper, and as a feminist, people may question the contradictory nature of this.

I'll be completely honest with you, the fact that you were attempting to defend anything female character related in Naruto is already brave enough, considering that Kishimoto can not write a female character for his life. Almost all of them end up being entirely depended on male character's goals and desires, almost all of them end up following in the "designated important male character's" steps, they pretty much have no interests or goals of their own, just their guy. Rin is even worse than that, because she is not even a proper character, again, on a good day she is just a placeholder thing for a female character, and in general in the manga she is nothing more than a plot device, a function that takes actual characters like Obito and Kakashi and produces some sort of results with them while she acts as the supposed reason for their actions. I specifically say supposed, because Kishimoto wouldn't be himself if he did not write Obito in such a horrible manner that all three of Obito's bullshit mantras that he is producing after his reveal did not clash with his MANY MANY horrific actions.

Obito is in an incredibly complex character and alas, there is a reason why I absolutely love him. He is my favourite, has always been and will always be (also, he’s a villain and he’s hot). Though there are parallels between Obito and Naruto, it’s important to distinguish the nuances. Both characters had no family growing up (I am not going to count Obito’s grandma as she is an anime only character and not technically canon), had it tough at the Academy, disliked by a lot of people and technically an outlier.

Obito as a concept desperately wants to be a complex character, but Kishimoto needed him to go through a shitty redemption arc real quick, thus Obito ended up being reduced to a 1.5 dimensional character that has exactly three types of arguments:

endless boring yapping about Rin (which feels like 80% of what he speaks about. ever.) about 5 of same frames shoved into the reader's throat every time this happens. real fascinating stuff, especially when this is what happens for 30 chapters straight (I am not kidding, I reread Naruto from 599 to about 660s, my eye is twitching)

woah look the world is such a hell (*insert three pages of nihilistic bullshit*). seems to be a critique of the shinobi world, but when you look into it - no, this is just this 30 year old man throwing a temper tantrum against not the system itself, but something like "friends dying", "friends betraying", "just death in general". Nothing of actual value that would make him the supposed destroyer of the system and savior of humanity, no, he is acting like an absolutely delusional child. the fact that this particular character does this is riduculous and a fucking insult to the reader's intelligence, because this guy has NO FUCKING reason to be this swallow and, I would even say, idiotic. this man has commited way too many war crimes and is responsible for far too many deaths, directly or indirecly, to ever have the fucking right to have the same stupid rhethoric that Naruto has. I can only say FUCK YOU to Kishimoto whenever he pulls this thing out of his ass in an attempt to make any of Obito's actions seem justified. Obito literally never manages to pinpoint anything correct of the system's faults (AND GOD IS THE SYSTEM FAULTY)

actual abuser ramblings. I feel like I am about to become Joker whener this shit happens. Obito kills someone, or someone who worked under Obito kills someone de-facto on Obito's orders, something happens as a result of Obito's actions - AND OBITO, GRABBING RANDOM SHINOBI #1314146 LIKE AN ABUSIVE HUSBAND WOULD GRAB HIS WIFE, STARTS SCREAMING INTO THEIR FACES, ALL SATISFIED AND HAPPY "LOOK! LOOK! SEE WHAT A TERRIBLE THING HAPPENED! ARE YOU FEELING DESPAIR OF THIS WORLD? GOSH THIS WORLD IS TERRIBLE! BUT DON'T WORRY, I'LL FIX THIS. JUST STOP RESISTING ME AND ALL WILL BE FINE." and NO ONE in the manga EVER bothers calling out this bullshit, because that would make Kishimoto admit that Obito is not a poow liwwle baby boi🥺��🥺🥺that just lost hiw way🥺🥺🥺🥺and aktually onli wanted to be with his fwiends and become the Hokawe🥺🥺🥺🥺but an absolutely batshit insane piece of shit that has no hill to die on

And you think I am being overly dramatic with the whole "abuser talk", here's some lovely stuff from chapter 646

For context, Obito activates the Divine Tree that kills a bunch of shinobi after instantly sucking away their chakra. And then he has the audacity to say that shit while everyone's watching how Mr. Genocide turns their comrades into husks. And if you think that, well, this is just some randos, they are here to raise the stakes of this endless battle, but no, Shikamaru also almost gets sent into the afterlife while Obito is preaching "if you stop fighting, I won't kill you". Just what an awesome guy.

But I got off track, back to the reply. Post 599 Kishimoto goes fucking ham on the parallels between Naruto and Obito... especially the ones that weren't even there. Because he is perfectly aware that even with the whole delulu savior shit that Naruto gets by using talk-no-jutsu, if things are left as they were pre-599 (which pretty much includes only Kakashi Gaiden aka 239-244), Naruto HAS ZERO REASON not to cave Obito's skull in and drop this asshole's corpse somewhere in the nearest ditch. Kishimoto, starting with Obito's reveal, adds more and more shit for Naruto to latch on, because otherwise what we have is a protagonist who pretty much doesn't have any companions who didn't get their lives completely fucked over by Obito, not too mention that 99% of Naruto's suffering comes DIRECTLY from Obito's actions.

So let's look at these GREAT parallels, which, thankfully, Kishimoto decided to put out in one monologue of Naruto's in chapter 653

neither knew their parents

correct, but a very simple a short question from me🥰so who is the reason for Naruto never knowing who his parents were? Who was such a meanie to take away Naruto's family? Who put fucking bombs on him 5 minutes after his birth?

(chapter 501)

Oh, right. The poow liwwle baby boi who only had Rin as his light and just dreamed about becoming Hokage.

I will go off track again, because the manga itself brings it up, but it's another important thing that Kishimoto wishes his readers to lobotomize themselves about: the timeline

The murder of Kushina, the resulting death of Minato and the destruction of Konohagakure all happened 16 years before the events of Shippuden. For the sake of simplicity, Shippuden will be set in year 80 (after Konoha's foundation), so the attack took place in year 64.

Obito is 30 (I have seen that he is sometimes supposed to be 31, but 30 is easier on the shaky lore of Naruto) in Shippuden. The Kannabi bridge mission was supposed to be around the same age that team 7 had in OG Naruto - 12-13. So Kannabi happened in year 62-63. Meaning, that IN BEST CASE SCENARIO between Obito waking up at Madara's and

1) murder of his teacher's wife 2) battle to death with his teacher 3) murder of his classmate's mother (the woman that Obito kills before taking Naruto? Sarutobi Biwako, Hiruzen's wife. And Hiruzen is Asuma's father) 4) large-scale destruction of the village he, supposedly, wanted to become a Hokage of

is at best A YEAR, if not just a few months. Because, again, Obito was recovering for some time, then the whole Rin's death scene, and then Madara trained him and explained him the plan. According to Obito's flashback in 600s, Madara kills himself by plugging himself off the Hashirama life support, and only after that Obito starts the whole grooming Nagato for the plan and attacks Konoha.

I point this out because I have seen numerous times how the defenders of poow liwwle boi Obito try to deflect the blame for Obito's actions by claiming that Madara made him do this. Madara WAS DEAD during all of this shitshow. Moreover, as you will see later in this post, Obito repeatedly does things that are NOT aligned with the whole ideal world creation and salvation for everyone, moreover, they oftentimes CONFLICT with this plan, and just outright scream I AM A PSYCHO WHO WANTS TO COMMIT MASS MURDER FOR SHITS AND GIGGLES

First of all, yes, let's admire how righteous and totally not maniacal Obito looks at the moment. "Do you know how long I have waited for this" MY ASS SHUT UP you're a cringe 14 year old. Secondly, let's hear out his wonderful plan, which is "gonna extract Nine-Tails, gotta crush Konoha". And while the first point does correlate with Eye of the Moon - they need the Tailed Beasts, after all - but then in Obito's flashbacks we learn THAT NAGATO WAS NOT ON HIS SIDE YET. THE GUY WHO CAN CONTROL GEDO MAZO AND STORE THE TAILED BEASTS IS STILL NOT WORKING WITH THEM. WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU ATTEMPTING TO STEAL NINE-TAILS THEN?? WHERE ARE YOU GOING TO PUT HIM??? Oh, maybe Obito kept a close eye on Kushina and realized that she was soon gonna give birth, which would be the primary opportunity to yoink Kurama? WRONG. OBITO BY SOME SHEER COINCIDENCE OVERHEARS KAKASHI TALKING ABOUT THIS OVER RIN'S GRAVE. HE THEN PROCEEDED TO KNOCK OVER THE FLOWERS ON HER GRAVE AND THEN ATTACKS KONOHA. HOW THE FUCK IS IT HELPING WITH THE PLAN???? YOU'RE JUST GIVING THEM 29847238 OPPORTUNITIES TO RECAPTURE THE THING????? YOU'RE ATTRACTING THE WORLD'S ATTENTION TO THE FACT THAT SOMEONE'S OUT THERE TRYING TO GET THEIR HANDS ON THE TAILED BEASTS??????

So, obviously, there is zero rationale for Nine-Tails' attack from the plan perspective. Well, maybe it alings with Obito's ideals, whatever the fuck they are? Obviously, glasses Obito would never do anything like WIPING OFF HIS AND HIS FRIENDS' HOMES OFF THE MAP and kill his dear sensei's FAMILY. MOREOVER, Rin fucking DIES trying to prevent Isobu from being unleashed on Konoha and decimating it, so what does our poow liwwle lover boi does? That's right, he pulls out Kurama and decimates the village only a some months after Rin died trying to protect it from the very same thing happening. Oh, wait, Kishi, so did she see that while in Pure Lands or not? Or does she have selective vision?

And mask Obito can be rationalized to do this by saying "oh, he's just showing the people the DeSpAIr", but again, this contradicts the manga with Obito saying "I don't care about this world yada yada", there is nobody who exactly would become targets for this campaign (Obito's endless speeches in 599 onwards are aimed at Kakashi/Naruto/etc) because we just see Obito interacting with Minato and Kushina, which would become despaired off the simple fact that Kushina is getting murdered by someone extracting the Tailed Beast, the village being crushed is just something on top that literally endangers his little precious plan more than it achieves anything. Is Obito ever shown to regret this as a stupid stunt or as act of terrorism against the village he supposedly love? NAHHHH WE CAN THROW IN OUR 20TH RIN FLASHBACK

Oh, and the timeline thing is important for another reason: poow liwwle boi defenders like to say that Obito went through so much and had witnessed the DarKneSS of the shinobi system, which is the reasoning for him going crazy and attacking Konoha. Obviously, this is bullshit, because the poow liwwle baby boi had no time to see anything about the grander shinobi system, he had been with Madara for several months with Madara being mildly ominous in the background and saying the most vague evil shit imaginable (before Obito runs off for Rin and Kakashi, he is still believer in the power of friendship and such, and the manga shows them having a whole wooping 1 conversation), then he witnessed Rin die, instantly became evil and commited a massacre (so much for cutie patootie liwwle boi), and then goes off to learn the plan from Madara and train to become as powerful as he is during Obito vs Minato. Even if I ignore the shitty writing that is supposed to suggest that Obito HAS ALL OF THESE IMPORTANT REALIZATIONS outside of the main plot, the timeline simply affords no place for him to comprehend the evils of the shinobi system. So yes, Obito is literally going off his anger over Rin dying and something something Minato being on another mission something something Kakashi (because there is two versions of the things Kakashi did that Obito is supposed to see, but Kishimoto conviniently shoves that little problem under the rug, god forbid we have any actual emotional interaction from Obito's character that doesn't involve the whole lazy Rin bullshit).

So, we are just on our first simularity between Obito and Naruto, and we already see that Obito's poow traumatized baby boi narrative falls apart when we decide not to go for the lobotomy Kishimoto wants, but instead realize that a) Naruto should punch Obito's skull open for ever mentioning his parents b) Obito is a mass murdering maniac with zero excuses and zero remorse

so let's continue with the parallels, shall we?

had it tough at the Academy

Now you're simply projecting Naruto's issues onto Obito. We have exactly two pages of Obito in the Academy years, and they are from chapter 599

And the thing that you are claiming as "him having it tough in the Academy" is.... him arriving late at the entrace ceremony in the Academy, Kakashi sighing at him, others kids just going back home, and Rin bringing him his entrance papers. Sorry, who is giving him a tough time here? Kakashi sighing? Kids who likely meet him for the first time not interacting with him? The Academy not waiting with finishing the ceremony because one kid is late?

Yes, this scene does show Rin being nice to him, but nothing more than that. I am not sure how old exactly the kids are in this scene, but considering Kakashi would graduate at 5, I would say that it's about 4 years old? Obito would go on to graduate at 9. A five whole wooping years that are completely not covered by this first scene.

(chapter 1)

And coming back to Naruto's issues at the Academy - Naruto was a delinquent that drew poop on the Hokages' faces AND he failed the graduation exam two times already, meaning that by 12 years old he got held back quiet a bit. He also has this little problem called being a jinchuriki, of which most parents are aware, and explicitly tell their children to stay away from him.

Obito graduates at normal time (9 years), similarly to Rin, Kurenai and Asuma. The only outliers would be Kakashi and Gai, both of whom would become two of the strongest ninja in their entire generation. Obito didn't cause trouble, in fact, it's repeatedly said that he helped the elderly around (and according to his own words even KNEW all of old people in Konoha when he meets Madara). Nobody in the village is ever stated to have anything against Obito, he's just an orphan from the Uchiha clan.

Literally nothing suggests that Obito had it tough in the Academy

disliked by a lot of people

Again, there is little confirmation of that in the manga.

Does his clan hate him? If so, why? There is no confirmation of this, moreover, Kishimoto keeps Obito's plot line and Uchiha's so apart it's actually absurd, but nothing in the story suggests that they should hate him or even simply not care for him. This is again in contrast to Naruto's own parents, because his Namikaze lineage was hidden (regardless if there were even relatives who could have taken care of him) and Uzumaki clan was decimated some time during the Third Shinobi World War, scattering the small amount of remaining members across the globe.

Do the villagers hate him? If so, why? There's also no evidence of that, on contrary, he was very friendly and helpful to the elderly around the village, so it would not be strange if a few of them were looking out for Obito. Obito has an annoying habit of coming late and being a bit of crybaby, but that wouldn't be enough to make the villagers dislike him. Unlike Naruto who is the vessel of the nuke that ravaged the village just 12 years before he learned of the reasons behind his mistreatment by the village.

Do his classmates hate him? Again, nothing is known about his Academy years except for one singular scene where he just meets them, but 599 also shows us some more interactions between him and the other kids in his generation... during the chunin exam

Do I even need to comment on how this is not anyone disliking him? This is just how competition goes.

Oh, and there's also a bunch of other minor things in this chapter, but I think it's a good time as any to introduce them😇

This. scene. right. here. It pisses me off to no end. You wanna know why?

Because this is the FIRST time we get Obito's Hokage's bullshit.

That's right, you aren't mistaken. The original Obito introduced to us in Kakashi Gaiden (239-244) NEVER EVER states that he dreams about becoming Hokage. He says stuff about how shinobi should act, he says how he's gonna become strong and tough once he awakens his Sharingan, he says how he is gonna protect Rin and others, he says how he is gonna see the future with the eye he gave Kakashi, etc etc. BUT NOT A SINGULAR MENTION OF HOKAGE BULLSHIT.

Kishimoto, for some mysterious reason, never introduced this CORE part of Obito's character (to the point Naruto literally yaps about JUST IT when he enters Obito's inner world thanks to the power of plot) when writing the original Obito, but the moment he needed to do the whole reveal thing and the shitty redemption arc in 30 or so chapters for a guy who's been our main villain for almost 300 chapters - oh hell yeah in 599 Obito gets the same fucking dream as Naruto, because otherwise Naruto has 0.0000001 reasons not to beat up this piece of shit. So, again, FUCK YOU, Kishimoto.

Right, what I was on about? Ah, Obito's classmates. So there's a bunch of other scene where Obito - HOLY FUCKING SHIT - is seen with someone other than Rin, Kakashi and Minato (very deep character, am I right)

And it's literally Obito being focused on Rin cheering Kakashi on (you know, THEIR TEAMMATE), so no interaction between the gang and him, and then later when we see them all planning gifts for Kakashi (who became a jonin at 13, A BIG FUCKING THING) while Obito is flustered because he was planning on confessing to Rin at that moment.

So, literally, the only person amongst his classmates who openly disliked him was Kakashi, who had a damn stick up his ass and wasn't really friendly to anyone (which we can see with how pretty cold to Rin and Gai he was at the time). And, of course, because we are dealing with Kishimoto, 239-244 Kakashi is a much bigger asshole than kid Kakashi in flashbacks post 599. Like, the OG Kakashi actually bullied Obito for his weakness, while the later one was mildly irritated at Obito's habits and carefree attitude.

So, in total: nothing suggests Obito was disliked by his family, by his village or by his classmates, except for Kakashi, who was just an asshole at the time, and his assholery varies depending on what Kishimoto needs for the plot to be.

Oh, and since we are on the topic of classmates: another magical lobotomy that Kishimoto expects the readers to have is for everyone to magically assume that never ever in his entire life Obito had friends EXCEPT for Rin. And I guess Kakashi for those 2 minutes before Kakko dropped that cave on their heads. Which, again, HAS NO BASIS in what Kishimoto actually shows us. Yes, Rin was the first person to support him, but he has known other classmates for almost 10 years before Kannabi happened, yet the plot acts like there were 0 interactions between him and others, which is... not how children fucking work? I can understand Obito feeling lonely because his parents are gone, yes, but then Kishimoto slam dunks on the readers' heads that UHM AKTUALLY NO ONE FROM HIS EXTENDED FAMILY CARED FOR HIM AND UHM AKTUALLY HE HAD NO FRIENDS EXCEPT FOR THOSE IN HIS GOVERNMENT ASSIGNED TEAM AND NO ONE FROM THE VILLAGE LOVED HIM which is a lot of stuff to shove down people's throats without giving a proper reason for this. People knew that Naruto was a jinchuriki, so they stayed away from him, Sasuke was extremely traumatized by the Uchiha massacre, yet we are magically supposed to believe that Obito falls into the same category????

(also let's also mention who is responsible for Naruto's and Sasuke's loneliness... ah right, Nine-Tails crush and the Uchiha massacre, both of which were fully or partially Obito's doing🥰)

Which is why this

(chapter 616)

scene is SO fucking funny even without the whole "Obito goes full angwy babyman and starts stomping his feet and screaming YEAH LOOK AT ME LOOOOOK I AM MAD AND ANGRY AND DEPRESSED BECAUSE I HAD FRIENDS SO YOU SHOULD BE MAD ANGRY AND DEPRESSED TOO while the rest of the Alliance is scrambling to survive and grandpa Madara is chilling in the background" because no you had NO connections??? Kishimoto is desperate to peddle us that bullshit about "Rin was the only person in Obito's life (for reasons I will not be explaining because I NEED this shitty redeption arc to kick off)" and regularly manages to forget that "Connections" imply number more than one, and Obito as he is given in canon at best has TWO, 1 for Rin who is a plot device and 0.5 for Kakashi and Minato respectively. And he is insistent on "Rin was my only light yada yada"... until Kishimoto suddenly no longer needs it

(chapter 651)

As a writer I am honestly amazed at sheer bullshitery and audacity of this scene. Kishimoto literally makes the plot gaslight Obito into "Hokage comrades Konoha good Hokage comrades Konoha good Hokage comrades Konoha good". Mind you, the Hokage thing was introduced literally during the masked man reveal, Obito had NO connections to speak of with his classmates because Kishimoto was SHOVING the idea of Rin being super special to him THAT HARD, he didn't give shit about any of these people for 16 FUCKING YEARS (!), Asuma is DEAD because of the merry band of terrorist that OBITO CONTROLLED (and that's after murdering his mother), Kurenai is raising Asuma's child ALONE, and IRUKA LITERALLY DOESN'T EVEN FUCKING BELONG IN THE SAME GENERATION AS THEM???? HE BECOMES GENIN IN THE SAME YEAR NINE-TAILS ATTACKS KONOHA???? OH YEAH, OBITO ALSO MURDER IRUKA'S PARENTS WITH THE NINE-TAILS INCIDENT????? WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK KISHIMOTO? WHAT IS IRUKA DOING HERE IN THIS BASTARD'S BULLSHIT FANTASY??????? ALSO IRUKA GETS THE SCAR DURING THE NINE-TAILS INCIDENT???????????? WHAT THE FUCK???????????????

Okay, I am taking deep breaths because I am feeling like I am about to lose my damn mind. But hopefully my argument about "Obito very much wants to be a complex character, but the plot has him be 1.5 dimensional one by ignoring 90% of what Obito did and does in the manga" becomes clearer. Obito's connections come and go as Kishimoto wants them, not because they organically come from the plot, and lack of said connections is never explained, which is why I honestly don't blame people for calling Obito obsessed with Rin, because Kishimoto does desperately tells us that no, Obito didn't pull these 16 years of mass murders because of Rin, there was a higher cause... but then fails to show us anything coherent outside of endless repetition of Rin, Rin, Rin

technically an outlier

And I fully agree with this, because at least that is directly stated in the manga

(chapter 240)

The only thing I think I might add to this is, I believe, during Sasuke's first flashbacks to his family, he and Itachi actually discussed the age of awakening the Sharingan, and I think they mention that 8 is about the time most people should have it? Which would indeed place Obito quite behind as he awakens it at 13, but considering the fact that it requries the user to get traumatized, is it really a bad thing? Lmao, I guess it's just teenage boys' dreams that I don't get

However, Obito never had an older mentor growing up, whereas Naruto did (that would be Iruka)

That really depends on what you consider "growing up". I can't say with exact certanty at what point Iruka became actively invested in Naruto's life (because Kishimoto kept rewriting things + this stuff is pretty vague at where I am looking for it, meaning chapter 1, Iruka is interested in Naruto's fate because both of them are orphans, so no exact indication when did it start. but. huh. I wonder who's fault for the two of them being orphans is that), but we do know that Obito graduated from the Academy at 9, meaning about 4 years he had a mentor in Minato, so his early teenage years are covered. Nothing exactly certain about the period before that, but yeah, sure, let's agree that implicitly the plot suggest a lack of mentor for Obito's childhood.

But another thing that, I believe, should be brought up, is the start of the Third Shinobi World War. I don't wanna repeat the lecture about establishing this date, but basically the beginning of it would be right around when Obito was 8, so yes, the general political situation had significantly worsened, and Obito would have probably started feeling the effects of the war enveloping the world, but Obito soon gains an older guiding figure.

Because neither of them had their families, Naruto was lucky that he had Iruka. Iruka provided that big brother figure, the mentor and in some ways a caring environment for Naruto, despite the hardships. Obito, however, did not receive any of this. 

Naruto still lived alone in the state-provided flat with mountains of trash and ate ramen with expired milk, something to this extent. This is not to mention the villagers actively shunning him for being the vessel for Nine-Tails. Obito, meanwhile, is not confirmed to have these hardships in the plot, moreover, as I have explained, a lot of the things you mentioned are assumptions that clash with what is seen in canon. Unless, of course, we are putting Obito's perspective above all, and Rin and the others cheering Kakashi and Gai fighting while ignoring Obito is literally the worst thing ever, but this is straight up offensive to Naruto's experiences.

And also while we are on this topic let's return to Naruto's talk-no-jutsu here, yeah, the same one he had after the plot magically had Naruto learn Obito's memories, specifically the ones pre-Nagato grooming, pre-Konoha destruction, pre-Kushina murder, pre-overtaking Akatsuki, pre-overtaking Kirigakure, pre-Uchiha massacre, pre-Akatsuki jinchuriki hunt, pre-Sasuke grooming, pre-Konan's murder. Which. Wow. How convenient, Kishimoto.

So Naruto here explicitly says that OMG U R JUST LIKE ME FR when it comes to the Hokage dream (that Obito gains upon the masked man reveal as far as the narrative is concerned)... only he is literally pulling this out of his ass, because, again, if Naruto was not introduced to some new memories the readers didn't see, there is nothing suggesting Naruto's claim. This entire thing hinges on readers taking the lobotomy pill and ignoring the giant extended family Obito had + the elderly in the village and not asking for an explanation as to why Obito would feel this extreme loneliness that would require latching onto Rin that strongly. I can agree with "lonely because parents gone", but beyond that this is just Naruto using the power of plot to fix Obito's worldviews.

What Obito did have, was Rin. The two have been childhood friends for a very long time. Rin gave Obito that sense of security and attachment, despite them being the same age.

This is all very lovely and dandy, but you would need to find me a scene showing them being childhood friends. For this post I have reread all chapters starting from 599 and to about 660(?) where I gave up because the conversation between defeated Obito, Kakashi and Minato was causing me to overdose on cringe. And during this entire period the only memory that anyone had of the two of them being children is that Academy arrival scene. THAT'S IT.

Then we have the team Minato introduction scene, but it's obviously after they become genins, so 9 years old. There's also this scene:

But if you check the earlier screenshots, you will actually realize that Rin is wearing the kimono that she has during the chunin exam + she has Konoha's headband, so they are already about 10 years old (at 9 they graduated the Academy, at 11 they became chunins, but Obito didn't pass this particular exam). So the kids you are claiming to be such good childhood friends with Rin being the sole pillar of emotional support for Obito have a giant 5 YEAR LONG GAP, and with Rin only living to 14 THAT IS A LOT OF TIME MISSING.

And in the other scenes Rin is already wearing her chunin get-up, so they are both 11+ years by that point. Meaning that as far as canon shows, Rin was nice to him that one time during the Academy entrance ceremony when they were, like, 4, then we HAVE NOTHING until they become team Minato, and then we have an array of very similar scenes where Obito speaks about how he's gonna become Hokage and Rin looks pretty and nods along (an incredible show of personality, Kishimoto). And then we get to Kannabi where Rin seems as about as upset as Kakashi is, even if Obito, her supposedly best friend, GOT CRUSHED ALIVE and is begging her to get his eye out of his eye socket and shove it into Kakashi's still untreated wound. And Kakashi, as we know, didn't get along really well with Obito until like 15 minutes ago.

But then Rin does the single most psychotic thing imaginable: Obito gets finally crushed, her supposed best friend's body turns into tomato paste that they can't even pick up and will have to leave him behind on the enemy territory, and as Kakashi explains how Obito loved Rin and died for her, the girl opens her MOUTH AND STARTS CONFESSING TO KAKASHI.

DARLING CAN YOU WAIT LITERALLY LIKE 5 MINUTES BEFORE ANNOUNCING THAT? ZETSUS DRAGGING AWAY OBITO'S HALF-DEAD BODY CAN PROBABLY HEAR YOU THROUGH THE ROCKS. WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK, HE JUST DIED!

And, I understand, in Kishimoto's mind this is all probably very romantic and tragic, but to me this is just another example of Rin's character flipfloping between the cutesy innocent girl in team Minato and the single biggest psychopath known to Konoha in her generation and this is only because Obito's turn to dark side happened outside of Konoha.

So, in total: one interaction as children, numerous interactions in team Minato, but it's literally the same one with them doing the same things, and then the Kannabi bridge. I am sorry, but this is one of the worst executions of childhood friends I have ever seen, if they are supposed to be that way. And on THIS + Rin's flipfloping character that gains and loses cutesy girl characteristics depending on Kishimoto's mood is on what Obito's entire fucking arc hinges. Obito who would be by far the most prolific war criminal in the last 20 or so years of shinobi history😁

One final thing before moving on: it's actually the pictures that you mention later in your post

I don't really care if Obito is here trying to kiss a picture, he's a young boy, he does silly things. What I wanna point out is the pictures that Obito has, because to me they are VERY telling.

Kishimoto shows us 0 photos of Rin and Obito together, you know, the supposed childhood friends. The picture that he is trying to kiss is the one that they took as team Minato at 9 years old. He has a picture of his parents (thank god for Obito's mama cuz dad is giving 0 pretty genes lol), and then he has a bunch of Rin pictures, but the angle on them all is just off, like he is sneaking photos of her from far away, or when she doesn't expect that, or as if he is sitting in the bushes. All of them indicate very little closeness, like they haven't been, you know, childhood friends for years and did things together. Kishimoto gives them practically no mementos that would indicate that degree of closeness that the whole "RIN WAS MY SOLE LIGHT" thing is trying to convey, but god does he not save up on the scenes of Rin putting bandages on Obito.

Obito’s love for Rin transcended romance. Of course the romance was the overt part, but his love for her was his sense of security. She was his safe space. When a child grows up without love or care from a parenting figure or a mentor, they will find ways to cope and latch onto the closest thing they can find safety and comfort in. Rin took on this role. So when Rin was killed before him, naturally there would be a sense of deep despair and anger.

I will not be adressing the first half of this, because I believe I have made it very clear that Obito's attachement issues are very overblown with what is given within canon (unless, of course, we go into the whole Uchiha love/hate/curse bullshit, but to me it's Kishimoto's favorite crutch to fall on whenever the plot demands to know why the fuck is everyone tolerating Uchiha #13 yapping and doesn't call them out on their bullshit) and his friendship with Rin is shown very weakly, to the point I would say most of it is left to readers' imagination. That's wonderful that you found a ship that has this sort of transcended love vibe, but what I see is two characters literally strung together by the author for no other reason because mangaka needs that drama, one of these characters barely qualifies for a character and is moreso a plot device, while the other one COMMITS SO many crimes the whole "she was my light" bitching and moaning can go into the trash pile along with the man saying these things, because hundreds of thousands are dead for the delusions of this one guy.

What I do wanna talk about is Rin's death, because GOD this shit drives me mad for numerous reasons.

Firstly, let's insert Kakashi into the conversation, because Kishimoto twists himself into a pretzel just to somehow both justify Obito's turn to the dark side and Kakashi not being an utter piece of shit that kills his friends for the mission (because Kakashi is a fan favorite I guess and making him fully responsible for that murder is a step too far). This pretzel is so lovely that it actually creates TWO versions of events in Obito as a witness and Kishimoto... does absolutely nothing with the change in Obito's perspective. Which is absolute insanity.

So, we turn off our omnipotence as readers, and sit inside Obito's mind as he sets off for Kakashi and Rin surrounded by Kirigakure shinobi in 603 (this is the only information he has). The Zetsus later mention some experiment of Kiri, Minato being on a different mission, etc, etc. Obito doesn't understand the full context, cuz he's running for his life, and at that point he does witness Rin's last moments through Kakashi's eye

(chapter 604)

Huh, what an interesting expression Kishimoto chooses. Something in between betrayal, confusion and fear. Well, it wiil certainly correspond to what is actually going on, right? Right?

So Obito finally runs into the clearing and sees

Rin, standing still, looking scared and betrayed, while Kakashi pierces her heart, crying.

And so, Kishimoto in chapter 604 creates a pretty clear narrative: Kakashi and Rin were surrounded on a mission with Minato away, and, instead of protecting Rin like he promised Obito, Kakashi chose to put the mission above his teammate and killed Rin.

By chapter 605 Obito is already commiting the massacre of Kiri ninjas, who scream something about the importance of Rin's corpse, but ultimately no further context is given, so nothing much changes in Obito had witnessed on that day.

Wow, what a terrible thing to happen! Of course Obito would break and realize how terrible the system and by extention the world is, with Rin being killed for... oh wait, there's more?

And almost 25 FUCKING CHAPTER LATER we suddenly discover THAT THIS IS NOT AT ALL WHAT HAPPENED. And is it Kakashi who tells us his side of story? NO, OF FUCKING COURSE NOT, IT'S OBITO WHO DOES THIS. OBITO WHO'S ENTIRE FUCKING CHARACTER HINGES ON THIS ONE SCENE.

Rin did WHAT and was WHAT?

(I will not go into detail how Isobu being sealed in Rin COMPLETELY fucks over Blood Mist's timeline, that's a whole other separate rant)

So, A MASSIVE CHANGE OF PERSPECTIVE FOR OBITO: Rin chose this fate, Kakashi was doing everything in his power to prevent this, Rin somehow managed to gain enough speed and agility to overcome Kakashi's reflexes and THE FUCKING SHARINGAN to throw herself onto Kakashi's arm (yes, the very same girl who got abducted TWICE. I did mention her abilities flipflop depending on Kishimoto's mood), and Rin's death had a very certain meaning - to protect Konoha from being destroyed by a Tailed Beast.

(I also really love how Rin in 629 absolutely can not end up in the same pose she did in 604, thank you Kishimoto for your cheap manipulations)

So... this is a massive thing to happen. So how does Obito react to this upon learning? When does he learn this? How does this happen?

LOL. LMAO. FUCK YOU READER. (c) Kishimoto

Because it's just randomly shoved into the plot and ignored for the rest of the series, regardless of how it completely flips the relationships between team Minato, particularly with Kakashi no longer being an unfeeling traitor but rather someone who ended up in utterly terrible circumstances that he could not prevent and Rin... continuing her psychotic streak of "oh, Obito died? better confess Kakashi right above his still warm body" with "huh, I can't end myself, and I pose a danger to the village... well, I will certainly not entertain the possibility of finding my sensei's wife who knows all the most powerful sealing jutsu to keep the thing inside me in control, so suicide it is, and of course I won't go for any of the armed Kiri guys following us, I will do it using Kakashi, the boy I love. I am sure he will enjoy the image of me bleeding out on his arm for the rest of his life, especially with that promise that he gave to Obito". Another important thing that we learn that Rin REALLY loved her village, to the point of being ready to die for it.

And I will say what I think about this - you can not try to push the "cute innocent baby girl" narrative with SUCH a heavy decision done. This requires a lot a mental fortitude of someone much older and competent than the pure innocent light that Kishimoto tries to later portray her as.

But coming to the second point I wished to discuss and it is how Obito's entire interaction with the whole shinobi system completely crumbles with the change in these events, because the first version does show how messed up it is - Kakashi choosing the mission over a comrade, Rin's life being just a simple burden to the system, etc etc. But the second version of events OFFERS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in regards to Obito's understanding of how wrong the system they are living is (contrary to LITERALLY any other antagonist in the series). Because Rin's death in the second version is a terrorist attack that Rin herself decides to prevent. You can have the most wonderful and humane system imaginable, with free healthcare, children being allowed to be children until growing into adutls, elections etc etc, and it would still not guarantee that people with nasty intentions from using power to inflict pain on innocents. And anybody could have ended up in Rin's place, if we are under assumption that Kiri simply wants to demolish Konoha with Isobu. The worst that could be extracted from this version of events is that Kakashi and Rin had to end up in this situation at all without adult supervision (which is moreso to Kakashi's part, because Rin in this scenario is just a bystander who got abducted to be used as a living bomb, and anyone from a cat to a granny could have been in her place), and Rin at 14 being able to make the decision to end her life for the sake of the village, but again this is also motivated by the actual danger she presents to the people around her.

All of the above is probably a good explanation as for why throught the entirety of 599 to 660s Obito can not formulate A SINGULAR good argument for the Eye of the Moon that would show the horror of the shinobi system except for "PEOPLE DIE - SAD", "PEOPLE BETRAY ALWAYS - ANGRY" and last but not least "YOU WILL BE JUST LIKE ME, GIVE ME A SECOND TO MURDER ANOTHER DOZEN OF YOUR COMRADES". I shit you not, the guy who was the one behind Blood Mist, witnessed the fate of Amegakure, was part of the Uchiha massacre, collected and personally knew members of Akatsuki, had been this amazing strategist and manipulator for the last 16 years CAN NOT say anything that wouldn't be about him being mad about Rin dying and how everyone's gonna be just like him fr.

The closest he ever gets to this is soon after Neji's death, remembering this wonderful thing called the cursed seal that the main branch of Hyuga would place on its cadet branch members regardless of their age whenever the current heir of the clan would turn 3, and this seal can also be used to inflict pain on the bearers by the people of the main branch. So essentially Konoha has a literal enslaving practices. Wonderful job, Hashirama. Well, what will our Savior and awesome guy will tell us about this practice?

Ah, he completely missed the point of why enslaving your relatives is bad. AND he is using it as a shitty Twitter-level gotcha that would sound like "LITERALLY 1984!!!1!" without ever bothering to read the book. God canon Obito you're such a loser.

Which is why I really can just barely chuckle whenever I remember that as the apocalypse is unfolding, hundreds of thousands are dead, and Obito gives up on the plan of his life after Naruto talks-no-jutsus him twice, Madara dunks on this entire comedy opera and reveals that HEY IT WAS ACTUALLY ME BEHIND RIN'S DEATH! and most of Obito's post reveal yapping goes completely null because it wasn't the system's evil (the faults of which he is never shown to understand), it wasn't this world's evil, it was Madara's evil that killed Rin😁

And that's overall a good commentary on the final state of the affairs in Fourth Shinobi World War - the majority of people aren't suffering because the system, the majority of people are dying because there's two Uchiha assholes with their convoluted bullshit that are killing people en-masse for their delusions, one of which was dead for the last 16 years, so yeah, Obito ain't running away from the things he commited with "boo hoo Rin was my sole light" which is immediatelly followed by this

WHICH IS THE ONLY ACKNOWLEDGEMENT HE GIVES OF 16 YEARS THAT INVOLVED DEMOLISHING KONOHA THAT KILLED HUNDREDS, THE ENTIRE AKATSUKI THING THAT ENDED UP WITH ALL MEMBERS DEAD AND LIKELY THOUSANDS OF SHINOBI AND CIVILIANS MURDERED WHILE THE ORGANIZATION WAS ACTIVE, THE BLOOD FUCKING MIST THAT HAD KIDDIE MURDER EXAMS, DEATH SQUADS AND EVEN MASSACRES OF WIELDERS OF KEKKAI GENKAI, THE MASS MURDER OF HIS OWN CLAN, AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST THIS ENTIRE FUCKING WORLD WAR WHERE HALF OF THE ALLIANCE IS ALREADY DEAD, SO WE ARE SPEAKING ABOUT 50K CASUALTIES AT LEAST

buuuuuuuuut Riiiiiiiiiin waaaaaaas myyyyyyyy soleeeeeee liiiiight😭😭😭

(also I suppose this is how Kishimoto deals with the whole "so hey at what point does Obito actually see the problems of shinobi system" thing, which is. hilarious. a tiny panel with a moon on the background.)

Okay, rambling over, let's return to the original post

A lot of people would say: “but he had Minato,” “he had Kakashi,” “he had Kushina.”

I find it a bit weird that you chose to exclude Obito's grandmother for being a filler and an anime-original character, but included Kushina here, because I do not remember a single instance of her interacting with Team Minato that happened in the manga and not in anime/video games

but they only came into his life for a short period of time. Their interactions were not on an intense level as it was with he and Rin.

Minato was in Obito's life for 4 years as we previously established, which is a pretty big thing for Obito's total 14 year old lifespan. And I am still not sure of what interactions that Rin and Obito shared that weren't "she held his hand, put a bandage over his cut and said with a serious tone that he shouldn't hide his wounds". Like, it would have been funny and cute if we were talking about 13 year old Obito, but with corpses pilied up, half of the world destroyed and 30 year old Obito? Please give me something better than a placeholder cutscene, I am begging you.

And again, very little indication of their interactions outside of team Minato, so question mark to the whole "long period of time"

Naruto however, had Iruka, who most likely taught him a lot of things about the importance of the village, the importance of camaraderie, friendship

But... Naruto is learning it over the time we witness him in the plot. And it happens while we watch him at 12. So I am not sure where the "Iruka taught him" argument is coming from.

And Obito was certainly aware of the importantce of the village considering HOW MUCH dialogue is spent on him declaring how he is gonna become a Hokage. If he missed that point while having that dream, I can't even say anything. Also, Obito from 8 to 13 was in a militaristic settlement that was in the middle of a World War, I'm pretty sure their education wasn focusing on working up that patriotism in the kids that would soon go to the trenches.

Naruto had his fair share of trauma but he had support that allowed for some resiliency.

Gosh golly I wonder who was responsible for all that trau-- I am sorry, I will stop, you get the point.

And also, no. Kakashi was in his depression arc and didn't interact with Naruto until becoming his sensei, Jiraya was out there somewhere shitfaced and probably collecting intelligence for Konoha, Hiruzen was just creepily watching him through his magic ball without Naruto's knowledge, and with Iruka it's unclear at what point did he start feeding Naruto and chatting with him outside of classroom, and even if that started as soon as supposedly Rin and Obito became friends, Naruto still was being shunned by the majority of village and starts having proper friends only during the plot, so 12 years old and onwards.

(and, again, there is no reason for Obito to be left stranded by the rest of the society, nothing written by Kishimoto ever indicates this)

Psychological intermeshment stems from traumatic upbringing in childhood (lack of nurturance from an adult caregiver, abandonment etc), and then again from losing their sense of security/safety (Rin in this case).

I like your point, and it is kind of something of a new thing to me, but again, the entire scenario of Obito's abandonment and latching onto Rin is hinging on the reader making the decision to remove that part of brain that considers these characters somewhere other than the vacuum. It is plain and simple bad writing. I really wish I could agree with your point, but it would mean ignoring almost everything that Kishimoto showed (and I am sure that he was desperate to tell us something along your lines, but he utterly failed in that regard).

So he did what he could to get that sense of security back, even if what he did was questionable.

EXCUSE ME? QUESTIONABLE? QUESTIONABLE???

Several months after Rin's death, Obito kills hundreds in his own village for no apparent reason because the action brings his plan no benefit. Does that mean getting back the security? Obito also kills the mother of his own classmate, never showing regret for it, before proceeding to put a kunai against a newborns throat and booby trapping him. Was he getting back the security this way? Obito also manipulates the leaders of original Akatsuki into doing his bidding and when the plan doesn't work, gosh golly one of them dies in an internal strife, which seems just so terribly convenient for him. Is being a manipulative and lying bastard part of his security blanket? He then also proceeds to put the Fourth Mizukage under his genjutsu and what followed was one the most brutal regimes shinobi world ever knew. Did he felt safe and happy becoming the reason for an entire village's and likely country's suffering? Said regime also included mandatory battles between children of Academy age, so 8-10 years old, and death squads that would kill anyone attempting to desert said regime, and the only profit that Obito got for his plan from this entire affair was Kisame joining Akatsuki. Well, surely, that seems like a mildly questionable thing to get his sense of security back, hm?

I am not even gonna bothering continuing, but I can make this paragraph twice as large without much trouble. Obito was not simply doing questionable things, he was an absolute genocidal maniac, and very much had a tendency for opportunistic murder, and a lot of the things he did have no explained or apparent reason.

Then you have the complexity of the curse of hatred that intertwines the storyline, which make things even more complicated. But this curse was what pushed the storyline and placed Obito as an antagonist.

As I have already stated, a cheap copout from Kishimoto to not bother himself with writing anything more complicated than a story for first graders

He did not start a war because of a girl. He started a war because he was angry with the way the world functioned. How the countless wars kept ending lives and taking loved ones away from people. He did not want people to go through what he went through.

LMAO. So, obviously, yes, the favorite argument provided with Kishimoto's own heavy-handed writing: "I did not start a war over a girl. I will only mention her fifty times. And think of only her whevener something major will happen to me. Fuck those people that I met over the last 16 years and who ended up dead because of my actions or my plan. They don't matter, only the people I spoke with when I was 13 do. And I will not be able to provide anything of substance whenever an opportunity to talk about the faults of the system will arise. Just general throwing hands in the air and dramatic mumbling about despair."

And rereading the manga, it is actually apparent that he can't produce anything about the shinobi system (because Kishimoto never ended up giving him a moment to understand this, duh), so he consistenly attacks the world for things like people dying in general, which, if you ask me, is the point where any and all discussion with Obito should have ended, because he is clearly absolutely delusional and, similarly to the war that HE started, it is a conflict between the humanity as it is surviving or this guy's delusions entrapping everyone.

How the countless wars kept ending lives and taking loved ones away from people. He did not want people to go through what he went through.

Damn, nothing says "I hate wars" like creating and controlling an international terrorist organization that specializes on taking the war business and spends YEARS doing random side-quests for money when your own plan has zero need for money, so you pretty much allow these bloodthirsty assholes to run amock. Nothing says "I hate wars" like sending said assholes into highly-populated areas to catch the jinchuriki when you are shown repeatedly to have the abilities to do so quickly and effiently, but nope, let's nuke Sunagakure, because "I hate wars". "I do not want people to go through what I went through", so I am going to have 8 year old children battle each other to death in the village where I took control, and if anyone tries to run away from that, I will have a death squad ready. Wow, I was so lonely as I child, but don't worry, little Uchiha, I am going to stab you and your family tonight, because I do not want you to go through what I went through. Oh, Sasuke-kun, hope you enjoy your new spacious home!

In essence, this mindset has villain written all over it, but it also compels a strong backstory for Obito because of his complex childhood upbringing and the trauma he experienced.

Trauma? Yes. Complex childhood upbringing? Maybe in some fanfiction, the canon is lackluster and has all the complexity of a third grader's math problem.

But people need to remember that he had a father who provided that nurturing environment for him. Even if his father died in tragic circumstances, Kakashi, though traumatised, was able to bounce back and push forward with the support of his friends and village.

These are not simply tragic circumstances, that's an 8 year old walking into his home and finding his father after he commited suicide. Your point about adult figures is a bit more appropriate this time with Kakashi, in my opinion, because Sakumo would kill himself when Kakashi was 8, and team Minato wouldn't become a team until Obito's and Rin's graduation when they were 9, so Kakashi ended up kind of being passed down from Sakumo and Minato. It still doesn't mean that it somehow alleviated Kakashi's condition, because we still see him holding onto these rigorous anti-Sakumo ideals during Kannabi bridge, all of which culminated in Obito's "death", so I am not exactly sure at what point the "bounce back" happens, because things get only worse for him with Rin and Minato getting killed. I don't even think Kishimoto actually shows us Kakashi getting back to it, all of it is coming from external sources that aren't written by Kishimoto? Kakashi just kinda loses everything and then we see him still staying alive and not following the allure of his dad's path. Kakashi has a lot of generic talk about friendship and comraderie, but I can't remember what exactly brought him back from losing everything that was related to his team? So he's a weird example to compare Obito against.

It all comes back to childhood upbringing and the presence of an adult caregiver/mentor.

And in example with Kakashi the adult mentor is also killed the second time and Kakashi loses everything. Again being saved by off-screen camraderie and power of friendship, and also general desire to continue spreading Obito's ideals. So, still a weird example.

That, and then again, the presence of the curse of hatred (which was why Sasuke was pretty fucked up despite coming from a loving family). 

Curse of hatred is lazy bullshit and Sasuke was not fucking fine because one wonderful evening he stumbled upon his entire family massacred, then got tortured by his beloved brother after witnessing him kill their parents, and then he had to alive alone in the very same compound where his entire family was killed, and then his brother returned and tortured him again, now sending him into a coma. That's just some of the few things that come to mind when it comes to Sasuke being fucked up.

This is the reason why I do not ship Obito x Kakashi. To me there was no love, care and nurturing between those two. Obito “died” not long after being friendly with Kakashi, so that wouldn’t warrant a ship between those two. Whereas with Rin, it is a different story.

I don't particularly enjoy Obikaka either, but I can understand why people would ship it (unlike canon Obirin canon Obikaka at least has two characters interacting), however again this comes from a lot of stretching of canon to the limit. You have correctly stated that there was no proper friendship shared between the two of them (which I see Obikaka shippers debating), Kakashi is practically bullying him during Kannabi bridge mission, and when they finally did see eye to eye (BADUMS) it was like 5 minutes before Kakko dropped the cave on their heads. But what is fascinating between the two is what they symbolize to each other (and no, regardless of what Kishimoto is peddaling, I don't believe in any deep friendship and understanding between them during Fourth Shinobi World War, they are grown ass men who have lived with their plans and ideals for far too long + they haven't spoken to each other in 17 years), because Kakashi changes his entire life to accomodate Obito's habits (being later and such), Kakashi, in a sense, attempts to live out the life that Obito never got to live. And Obito... well, Obito's writing all over the place, so really this guy's interpretation is in the eye of the beholder and how much they are willing to ignore canon.

And like I said, just because of all this crap Obito’s been through, it does not excuse what he did or make what he did right (he was a villain after all).

One, it literally doesn't provide him with enough motivation for half of the deaths he had caused. Two, yes, the plot absolutely excuses him in the most ridiculous of ways, because poow baby boi upset that Rin dead. Don't mind poow baby boi using about a 100 opportunities to kill people when it went against his supposed morals and there was absolutely no profit to be made for Eye of the Moon, Naruto saw 30 year old poow baby boi being sad and dreaming of becoming Hokage when he was 10, he certainly deserves redemption arc.

And thank you for reminding that that post-Obito death scene exists, my night is absolutely ruined because now I remembered this "How to never write a female character" scene, with Rin finally rejecting her premise as a character and embracing her role as a plot function, and in this scene she fulfills a role that all male character dream of - a consolation prize for Obito who sent countless people to their deaths, brought about the apocalypse and got around to fixing it about two seconds away from midnight on the doomsday clock. But hey, at least he tried his best doing all of that!

now onto @makimahinalno points

What these two had was very unique and rare, and I cannot explain how much it irks me when people degrade and simplify it as "obsessive" when it isn't.

The uniqueness and rarity of these two stems from the fact of how absolutely half-baked their relationship is, how Rin's charactertics and worldview (which we don't get at all until that flashback when they are chunins and Rin says flat out that she wants the war to stop, which I guess indicates something common between the two, but also shows her not being a particular death enjoyer?) keep changing whenever Kishimoto needs them to ("I watched everything and you did your best" says she to a guy who demolished a village that she died to protect. Actually, two times, if we include the Pain attack. Oh, and the boy she loved aka Kakashi also got killed during that attack) and how Obito's 16 years of life post Rin's death had so much opportunistic murder that can not be excused or even motivated by any of his endless meanderings about hopelessness and such. I am sure that Kishimoto intended for this to be some sort of higher form of love, but with what he ended up writing Obito being responsible for, Kishimoto's own inability to properly handle the horrific nature of Obito's acts and, frankly, Rin's character remaining somewhere at placeholder female character level, every single time he mentions or has a flashback to her (and that happens A LOT) that really makes one realizes that either the character or the managaka are completely insane. But probably both. Which is where "obsessive" comes from, because Obito conveniently does not acquire any other significant relationships for half of his life, leaving him sounding like a broken record about Rin.

When Obito remembers Rin, when we see her face, we are supposed to think about innocence itself.

That's awesome, but making an executive decision to kill yourself using your crush's fist to prevent the village from being sent into past tense is not innocence. Being capable of taking out a dying boy's eye and transplanting into a wound of another boy while standing in the middle of some half-destroyed cave with no tools specifically prepared for that and neither of the boys dying is not innocence. If Kishimoto wished her character to be about innocence, he should have not made her an experienced shinobi (at times, of course whenever he needs her Rin becomes as incompenent as a child).

She is the symbol of it, she represents all kids in the world who deserve to play on a playground, be well fed and not have to worry whether they are going to survive to see the next morning or not.

Damn, and Obito really internalizes those ideals, doesn't he? Or does he become the head of regime that had exams for Academy students that required them to kill each other? The exam that got cancelled because little Zabuza has found a cheat code and killed a 100 children of that graduation class? The regime that had a specialized ANBU department that was solely responsible for people escaping this regime, likely including the very children that didn't want to kill their fellow little friends and not worry if the are going to see the next morning? The regime that had massacres of people possessing Kekkei Genkai that it did nothing about? And after Obito was done with that regime, surely Akatsuki did not recruit a 13 year old and a 12 year old almost consequitevely? He surely gave them warm homes, carefree education and uneventful lives? He surely did not pair them with fellow mentally ill nukenins and send them to complete missions for his terroristic band, with their faces plastered in all bingo books with a handsome reward next to them?

Again, I would love to believe into this idea of "innocence" that Obito so cherished and Rin seemed to possess, but unfortunately the only thing I get is three same scenes of Rin and Obito doing the same thing again and again + Obito's vague and meaningless meandering + none of Obito's actual messed-up shit being ever adressed in favor of the things above. I am sure Kishimoto oh so wanted this deep transcendent love and innocence incarnate, but you can't get rid of 600 chapters worth of questions by replacing all answers with "SHE WAS HIS SOLE LIGHT😭😭😭😭😭😭😭" Kishimoto created a character far too heavy that he could and wanted to manage, so Obito falls flat with Rin as the anchor that drowns him in his own lore.

I... won't be adressing the rest of your post🤣🤣🤣🤣you should write poetry, I love your flowery descriptions. I think I've made my case clear about how this particular interpretation of Obirin requires one to use their imagination instead of relying on canon material and preferably forgetting about the other big chunk

Anyway, that's about it. Thanks if you managed to read to this point, I am honestly surprised and congratulate you. I have been wanting to make a big post containing most of my issues with Obito's writing in canon, and these posts made me stay up throught two nights as I was rereading manga and writing this post itself.

And remember, kids, ship whoever your want, tag your stuff appropriately, and don't try to get into the depths of Naruto canon, or you'll end up in this wormhole just like I did. With Kishimoto at the helm, nobody is a winner.

Sending cheers to the authors of original posts!

(and yes if you are wondering why I stopped attaching pictures to the post past a certain point - I hit the limit on them and was far too lazy to separate them into several posts. I might make a separate post with other screenshots of the manga that I have where Kishimoto reaches absolutely insane levels of reader gaslighting, I was honestly torn apart by my desire to fall asleep while rereading this part of the manga and giggling like insane because some of the shit characters say is absolutelt comical in its absurdity. God I really have a love-hate relationship with Naruto's last 100 chapters, don't I. Anyway, I gotta crash, I have an exam in two days and I did not sleep for two days.)

[kirkwallguy]

I'd hate to sound pretentious or smth but I was watching a vid talking about media literacy when it comes to booktok and this idea with those girlies that thinking/engaging with something critically isn't fun and the only way to have fun is to turn off your brain... I don't think VG suffers from this as much as a lot of booktok shite but in comparison to the other games it rly does feel like you're not meant to be paying attention or thinking about your actions (cough not like you get to chose any of your actions COUGH), or the implications of anything? and I'm not trying to say VG fans are stupid or smth cause I think many Want something to think about, but I feel like I've seen a lot of people have to reach very far or just straight up make shit up to engage with the game? (Other games aren't perfect but I was immersed with the games enough to stop and think about how my choice will affect xyz, that didn't happen in VG) There's nothing to chew on in VG basically 😭

it's only pretentious if you don't mean it! but yeah i think there are a lot of parallels to be drawn here - i don't know how to say this without sounding like an annoying gamer bro, but now that gaming is more accessible, it feels like aaa companies do their best to cater to the widest possible demographic. market research probably shows that the majority of people don't want to be challenged or experience negative emotions, ask someone who plays games very casually whether they'd want to experience horrible consequences for picking evil actions in a game they'd probably say "um?? no? why would i want that?" but ask someone who plays a lot of rpgs and they'll probably at least understand the importance of those choices, even if they don't pick them personally. i don't think gaming is an old enough industry to have fully pinned down market research in the same way tv has - when you look at viewing figures, the most watched shows are soap operas and family sitcoms. that doesn't mean prestige tv doesn't have its place, it just means that the majority of people don't watch tv to experience the feelings shows like interview with the vampire want you to feel lol

dav doesn't actually ask any questions of the player. you're told what's wrong and what's right and not really asked to make any moral judgements. the bad guys that you kill are barely human so you don't feel bad about cutting them down (the antaam are dehumanised while the venatori are cartoon characters), the companion quests all end nicely no matter what choice you pick, the big act 1 choice is the closest you get to a negative consequence and it still feels very safe because you don't ever feel like you've done something wrong.

and yeah, it does feel like people writing analysis of vg are TRYING to chew on it, but so much of the enjoyment seems to be about coming up with your own fanon to play in a sandbox. which is fine. that's how i enjoy dai tbf. but it's sad to see after dao and da2, especially knowing how many other games there are that let you do this. SKYRIM is more complex than dav, and that's the game i always mention when talking about power fantasy sandboxes

the booktok stuff is kind of nuanced ofc, turn-your-brain-off rubbish has been available since the beginning of time and i feel like the real reason it's becoming more popular is self-publishing and people being more open about reading it on social media. i've written shitty 19th century porn and it was no better than whatever the mafia boss 50 shades ripoff writers are doing now. buuut also i think the way it spills out into other genres, and this increasing idea that fantasy/sci-fi should be about "escapism", is really fucking over people trying to get published while writing something complicated.

[ruhua-langblr]

Hi, you seem to have a decent grasp on Language Learning Resources™, so maybe you could help me.

I currently have a 2600+ day streak for Duolingo Spanish, which I initially picked up because I took classes in school and wanted to see if I remembered any. I'm well aware of the limitations on the app, and at this point it's just because I like to see the number go up. I've only ever been a casual student but I would like to progress eventually. The problem is I have trouble finding a method between gamified app, and full-blown, academic, novel -and- textbook self study. Do you know of good ways to move past Duolingo lessons without biting off more than you can chew?

Thanks for any input you have

Hi!

I feel like that "number goes up" connection is the main reason a lot of people don't want to move on from Duo and similar apps! I hope to do a post that goes into all of this more in depth, so consider this a shortened version~

My personal philosophy is that you shouldn't have to chose between just gamified apps and academic study—ideally you need it to be engaging enough to keep up for when you have less motivation, but with an academic rigor! I'm gonna drop some general resources/resource types and try to give them all a shot! Don't think of replacing Duo with a singular app or activity, but a collection of resources that you can switch between.

Anki: SSR vocab learning. Lots of customization and habit tracking features available so consider this a good "number goes up" replacement (and if you really love looking at data it's much more thorough!). With Spanish as your TL (target language), you'll have plenty of pre-made decks available. You can have specific decks, sentence mine, or have a huge 5,000 most frequent words deck. Anki isn't my favorite method personally, but people get SUPER into it and it works for them—also you'll hear this everywhere anyway.

Language Transfer: I wish my TL was one of the ones they have! If you're coming from Duo then you've probably been lacking a good method to really train your listening skills. 100% free, and I've heard great things about their Spanish course as well. All the files are available to be downloaded to listen to offline. Great to put on when you're getting ready in the morning, for bed, or during a commute.

LingQ/Youtube/Podcast Comprehensible Input: "[TL] Comprehensible Input" in the Youtube search will get you pretty far. There are podcasts like this as well, but it's nice to have a visual stimuli as well! This is pretty much the epitome of a ~natural language acquisition~ style. Immersion and immersion at an appropriate level is what works best. If you've even dipped your toes into the language acquisition sphere, you'll know Steve Kaufmann. LingQ is his app that's based on these principles.

Textbooks: Duo assumes that you can just pick up grammar from pattern recognition and that can work, but upper-level nuanced grammar or grammar patterns that are vastly different from your native language are hard to intuit. Find a good, dedicated grammar textbook and use that as what you will learn the details of grammar from. All that audio stuff will teach you what sounds right, this will teach you why/how it's right. (Buy a used textbook, visit your library, or check out my pinned post...)

+More: There's so MANY ways to learn a language. I'm focusing on specific methods that would fit in naturally with your existing habits (solo, digital, habit-forming), but there's tons more out there that you can do: journaling, discord servers, italki, chatting apps, graded readers, etc.

To start pick one that you feel the most drawn to and then a second that compliments where it might be lacking. Make a goal that you feel is reachable, and build from there.

Best of luck!

[originemesis]

@bored2deathiswear xxx

The roses dry up, the hint of loving sadness washes off indeed, and the one that comes up is one of hurt, terror, and stomach-cooling surprise. Lucifer gets up suddenly and the illusion vaporizes into darkness, pure pitching darkness. There's a big gap between the two now and between them there's a rose that bleeds into inexistence. The eyes of Lucifer open in horror, his mouth agape in a swallowed gasp.

Then the head falls, and his body gives in to tiredness. His limbs fall like they have no strength.

"I thought...I thought I was...doing something...good...for us...I..." A whisper, rambling. Talking to Adam or Lilith?

His whole body is cold and the bounds Binding Adam cool, cooling to a point of freezing ice. Shaking like weak, like they could break at any moment. A burning cold.

The head of his majesty lifts a bit.

"Your wings...? Is that all you want?"

Defeat by the gnawing truth that had been chewing on him for the last years, repeating to himself that it was his fault. Lucifer's eyes are hiding under the shadow of his hat but for a moment there's a hint of them.

"I'm...so tired...Adam..."

Closes his fist suddenly and the restraints break.

"...If my company is so disturbing to you, leave."

Doesn't look at who he's talking to, repeating this time harsher.

"Leave."

In the darkness, a door opens, and a corridor is seen.

"Just...go." Hurt bleeds from his words. But he doesn't turn, instead fixing his clothing to perfection and making his cane appear to stand in his majesty pose.

Still and with limbs strapped in, he observes the culminating change in the other's demeanor with nothing more strenuous than a scoff and rolled eyes. There was nothing unique in the nuance of a fallen face when it belonged to that of the first to fall. Seemed fitting, actually. Deserved. And from the distinct lack of lengthy, blonde strands shed around the parts of the abode he'd been dragged through one involuntary fox-trotting tour after the next, he's not the only one who thinks so.

"Geh?!" There's a resounding clunk as the back of his helmet phases through the illusion of petals burning away, and connects with the ground once the fondling grip relinquishes its hold in favor of sinking back into an impregnable darkness. Teeth gritting around a slow hiss, he rolls partially onto his flank, a shoulder bearing the brunt of the effort to not remain belly up. It's a task easier imagined with wings, and vaguely reminiscent of a caterpillar's struggle against a cocoon it had grown too large for.

The jaundiced lights of his eyes blink, irate headlights that swing from one direction to another before finally focusing in the distance from which the other's voice drifts like the first stale air from a coffin pried open.

"Yeah- well... hindsight's a bitch, isn't it?" Though he doubts this bastard is even capable of looking back in favor of not seeing the scorched trails he left in his wake. The ones he traveled exclusively to keep the reason for his cruelty lit as robes brushed remnants of wildfires and smouldered at the seams.

He scoffs. "Prioritizing pulling myself together over letting you fail to force me through the hag shaped hole in your heart? Weird concept, I know." Whether he means that Lucifer's expectations were excessively unfounded while he's missing literal body parts, or that the hell bastard lacks a heart- he doesn't clarify past a sting of sarcasm.

When he's told to go, he just blinks down at the extra snug arm bindings, gaze bouncing back up to affix the speaker in the dark with a 'fucking how?' bitten lip and quirked brow before the restraints fall and wither as fast as the flowers under him had. "Well aren't you so helpful?" He grumbles, the heel of his palm pushing him into a slouched sit and continue to struggle towards a burdened bid to find his feet under him.

"Except not fucking really. You want me to swim out of hell, asshole?" An annoyed flick of his gaze later, saucers swivel towards the sound of the other's voice trailing out of the dark. "You know..." The glow of his mask dims for a moment as if the power supply to it had been cut, but the heat remained as it slowly but gradually cooled into a blank surface. "It's about time you got a taste of watching them all leave you behind. Hope it was worth ~ "

[blackjackkent]

Having trotted through a large collection of smaller conversations, we finally reach the central area of The Grove, where some tieflings are having it out with a group of the druids.

"Let my daughter go - right now!"

"She's a thief, hellspawn. And you will wait for Kagha's judgement. Now get back!"

"Argh. Let me through, mragrashem, or I'll rip your damn throat out!"

She looked ready to go through with it too, until the druid on the left straight up turned into a fucking bear, at which point the tieflings scarpered right quick.

I def need to play a druid so I can also do this.

If not friend, then why so friendshaped?

Friendshaped aside, these people are super skeptical of us. The lady in the center would have booted us out on our asses except apparently "Kagha" wants to see us.

Starting to explore the grove and talking with the other druids, we learn that Kagha is not the druid's leader, as I assumed. But she is the one behind the plan to eject the refugees. Halsin (who is possibly the leader I think?) was the one who welcomed them in in the first place, but he has currently disappeared, possibly held prisoner in the goblin camp. And he's likely the only one who can resolve the dispute in time to save the tieflings.

This sounds like we're probably gonna end up chasing down the goblins, but one step at a time.

Kagha is inside the stone structure that rings the grove, and she seems like a highly unpleasant person, as she is currently chewing out the tiefling child mentioned above with very little compassion.

"She stole the idol of Silvanus. She must pay the price. We will imprison the thief under guard of my serpent. When we cast out the rest, she may join them. Let the devil be an example. We will tolerate outlanders no longer. The grove will be made safe. The circle will be closed!"

You sound fun and like a paragon of nuance.

"Please! I'm sorry!" the tiefling girl pleads, her glowing eyes wide with fear as the snake circles her.

One of the other druids is trying to reason with Kagha.

"This is madness, Kagha! She's just a..."

"A what, Rath? A thief? A poison? A *threat*?" She glares down at the child with unmasked disdain. "I will imprison the devil. And I will cast out every stranger."

Hector finds he can't keep his mouth shut at this blatant, fear-driven cruelty. Why is he finding this so common in the world? He has been terrified every moment since he woke on the nautiloid ship, and it has not stopped him from being kind.

"Imprison her?" he says sharply, hearing his voice echo a little in the high-ceilinged cavern. "She's just a child."

The druid rounds on him, eyes flaring.

"She is a parasite. She eats our food, drinks our water. Then steals our most holy idol in thanks!" She looks at her companion imperiously. "Rath, lock her up. She remains here until the rite is complete." She pauses, and then the mask of leadership slips for a moment, and a flash of malice goes through her eyes as she looks down at the child. "And keep still, devil. Teela is restless."

The serpent hisses eagerly, eliciting a sharp squeal of fear from the girl.

The woman's force of personality is impressive - but Hector isn't going to let this go without an argument. This seems to be his standard operating procedure at this point - he really doesn't have a lot of experience with the conflicts of the real world, so he simply identifies the right and wrong of the situation in his opinion quite firmly and then pursues the right (usually to the benefit of the innocent, even at his own expense) until he runs out of options.

I was hoping for him to be more overwhelmed with the world but to be honest the game doesn't really support that as an option (unsurprisingly, really - it's not exactly the average background), so we're adjusting on the fly. :D The problem is often more that he doesn't always know the right thing to say to appease any particular person, there being a lot of nuance to the wider world that he is not familiar with, or sometimes he just biffs it because he's kind of awkward sometimes. :P He may be handsome but his charisma score is middling at best.

"You act rashly," he says firmly, mustering the air of spiritual guidance he learned in the temple. "As a cornered viper would. Free the child, or more tieflings will interrupt you."

In this case, he gets lucky - he's hit on the right note. Kagha hesitates, then scowls.

"Tsk. A gathered herd of the devils would indeed be disruptive." She lets out an irritated sigh, then shrugs. "It is as you say. Ssifisv - Teela, to me!"

The snake twists, then slides along the ground past the child, eliciting a whimper of fear. It comes into a coiled position at Kagha's feet and hisses angrily.

Kagha glares at the girl.

"Out, thief. My grace has its limits."

Hector turns to watch the girl scurry out of the cave - and in doing so, he notices Shadowheart convulse with a sudden noise of pain. Something on the back of her hand is glowing with a pale purple light.

"Nnggh. It hurts..."

The other druid - Rath - steps forward slightly, placatingly. "Thank you, Kagha. Master Halsin would--"

This name seems to rouse even more anger in Kagha than the child did, and she lashes out in the man's direction viciously.

"Halsin isn't here. Keep his name off your tongue, lest Teela pierce it."

[crehador]

brother crab's winter 2024 parting thoughts: dog signal

alright well yysy it's not much to look at, the animation/art style isn't exactly "modern" or exceptional (though personally i was quite charmed by it)

that aside, this was overall a really pleasant surprise to me!

tl;dr: fun cast with some surprisingly compelling and deep(ish) backstories, would recommend but with the disclaimers that a) it's episodic and b) there's quite a lot of animal mistreatment since each episode is about helping a dog whose person isn't treating it right (most if not all the cases have hopeful endings, but some parts may be hard to watch)

also niwa and samura have the most HILARIOUSLY classic toxic yaoi situationship without any of the fun parts (the actual yaoi), more on that later lmao

full review:

the series is for the most part episodic, with each episode dealing with a dog owner who comes to a certain dog trainer for help. i'm a fan of a good episodic series, even when the episodes can be hit or miss, so the structure was very enjoyable for me

the stories of the main cast were surprisingly compelling, too. it seemed like it would be just a very silly show—what with it starting with a guy (cv knb murasakibara) walking another guy (cv knb kuroko) around on a leash in public for two hours—but the character backstories that were revealed throughout the series did actually feel delightfully nuanced to me

(for example "yeah that old man did hit a dog and that's not great but the dog in question was biting the shit out of the kid he sees as a son so it's not... not understandable that he would react that way and while i'm not saying he should be proud of hitting a dog i guess i am saying it does suck for him that son guy hated him and went no contact for years for it")

one of my favorite episodes, ironically, barely involved the main cast at all. most of the episodes deal with this dog training business training dogs (shock!) but in this one episode, fairly late in the series, the owner was a struggling mangaka suffering from immense social anxiety, whose only friend was his dog who one day suddenly loses his hearing

that's such a tough thing that you really wouldn't explain anyone to know how to handle on their own without training. the mangaka even runs into the mc (trainee dog trainer) early in the episode and receives a business card for the dog training shop, but instead of taking his dog in, he does his best on his own to develop ways to communicate with his newly deaf dog

and it works! not only does he find a way to keep his dog comfortable with him, his efforts make him less concerned with what other people think of him as well. he managed to go to the dog training shop in the end, to see if there's anything he could be doing better for his dog, only to be told that they can't do anything for him—because he's already done everything right

(in establishing a way to communicate with his deaf dog, that is. there are other issues he gets chewed out for, which i really liked and found realistic)

i feel like it was just such a well-timed episode as a narrative device, because it shows that while the main dog trainer is great (the trainee dog trainer mc practically worships him) it's not that everyone in the world is helpless without him

but anyway

REGARDING THE SITUATIONSHIP WHAT THE FUCK LMAO first of all i love it

samura has just been dumped by an extremely shitty girlfriend when he meets niwa, while out walking the dog (or attempting to walk the dog) said shitty girlfriend dumped on him

he's doing a terrifically bad job, to the point where niwa (pro dog trainer) can't bear to watch. so what does he do well of course he has to reeducate samura by... putting him on a leash and walking him around the park, in public, for two hours. to show him just how wrong he's treating his dog

samura somehow gets a job out of this and they start working together. at one point he reveals he is GOING TO THE SALON and GETTING HIS HAIR PERMED so that it is curly because niwa has a poodle and seems to like curly hair (???)

jump cut to the final episode and we're finding out samura's tragic lore—parentified by a narcissistic mom, down with too much filial piety disease. when samura finally decides he's no longer sending money back home, his mom comes to the dog training shop to be like "sir uwu you have to give my son a raise so he can keep sending money home uwu he's such a good hard-working boy please pay him what he's worth"

and niwa is straight up like "actually he sucks and you suck get the fuck out of my shop" AND THEN LATER IN THE EPISODE samura's mom calls him (has been calling him repeatedly since meeting his freak of a boss) and NIWA ANSWERS THE PHONE and while she's complaining about the money situation and the freak boss (niwa) he basically tells her "you still suck and your son still sucks but i'm keeping him, fuck off"

like my god?? that woman is going to go away thinking her son has gotten into an extremely abusive relationship with his boss. i mean fuck her entirely, she does suck, but that is very much Not the situation (even though it does Very Much appear to be the situation)

anyway. ultimately this one lands in the :) category for me, originally picked it up for the cast (kuroko and mukkun and also KENN) and didn't have very high expectations but am thrilled to be pleasantly surprised

[becauseplot]

Just read your new fic and uugh im simply obsessed with your writing really!!! The way you write Liz and Thiago scratches all the braincells i have about them

I especially love the way you portray their relationship! Im not aro myself, but i am ace and these portrayals of undefined relationships that dont fit the commom labels bring me so much joy. Even more so when its with my favorite characters being shown somewhat as part of the Aspec

Also i agree with you! The ordem universe really has a lot of potential for aro and/or ace readings of sooo many of the relationship between characters. Because i feel like the experiences that come with having contact with the paranormal impact the characters and their relationships with one another in such a deep level that ends up binding them together in ways that are often hard to define but definitely always fun to explore!

Back to your fic specifically, i think you truly get the intricacies of their bond, the way you write about their struggles with both the paranormal and with their own issues aways makes me go "Yes!! Yes you get it!!" When im reading. Their banter and mannerisms are really accurate, and im also a huge fan of how you potrayed Thiago's internal conflicts! In fact, the way you write him its one of my favorites aspecs of your ordem fics...

Sorry for the rambling! I hope its understandable, i just had to come and compliment your ordem writing again because its so good!!

Glad I could scratch the braincells!! This fic was a lot of fun to write, I simply adore them :D

I myself am aspec (heavier on the aro, probably some flavor of ace) so aromantic readings of ordem relationships are so special to me. And YOU. YOU get it EXACTLY. The circumstances that the characters meet each other in Ordem are incredibly distressing, often life-or-death, and highly unusual---of course the relationships that flourish out of them are going to be different from the more "typical" platonic, romantic, and familial relationships; and putting them strictly in any of those boxes often sacrifices the relationship's nuance. Thus, an aromantic/queer-platonic/unlabeled lens for analyzing the relationships can be very helpful! God I could write paragraphs on the matter (and I have, in insane late-night ramblings in DMs and discords hdskhdj) but what it boils down to is that it's care, and love, and at the end of the day, that's what these characters desperately need from each other, because the story they live in certainly isn't going to provide it for them.

Liz and Thiago are especially fun to chew on. Like many of the other characters, their relationship is founded on a trauma bond: only they really know what happened to Gonzales, Daniel, Alex, and the monster in Nostradamus, and they very nearly didn't survive it themselves. Grief, shock, and desperation are at the roots of their relationship, and their relationship flourishes out of that shared trauma---of course they're going to stick close together. So now you've got this powerful bond between two characters who met a month ago that is constantly being tied tighter by these missions, making them cling to each other harder and lean on each other more heavily as more people die and as circumstances become more and more dire.

So, "friends" becomes a seemingly weak word in the face of that, nor does it seem to check all the boxes when you have such strong feelings for the person that don't seem to fit under what you would typically feel for a "friend." BUT there isn't any language available to accurately or succinctly label your relationship otherwise. Thus, Thiago's conundrum in the fic.

Anyway, yes! Their personal struggles and the paranormal threats they face go hand in hand! The threats they face often pull out the rawest parts of characters, which makes them fun to analyze. I'm glad their banter and mannerisms felt accurate, it was one of the ones I was incredibly mindful of when writing this---taking extra care to make sure that this fic really felt like them. The banter and bickering are essential <3

Never apologize for the rambling! If anything I should apologize I've just dumped a bunch of paragraphs right back on you my dude lmao.

Thanks for the lovely comment, it made my day <33

[makeste]

I like Bakuguo but his attitude is starting to really piss me off. He's talking about Daku as if he's just ~crazy~ and as if he isn't partly to blame for Deku's toxic self-worth issues. It's infuriating to watch. If Bakuguo doesn’t admit out loud and in front of his friends that his bullying of Deku played a part in Deku's current destructive state and if he doesn’t verbally apologize and reaffirm Deku's worth then I can no longer like Bakuguo's character or Hori's writing.

tbh I don't really know why this is the discourse of choice for people all of a sudden, but this is already the second ask I've gotten about it, so I might as well address it lol.

I think fandom is conflating fanon!Deku and canon!Deku here again. fanon Deku is of course much more sensitive and woobified and has much shakier self-esteem. fanon Deku is the one that turns evil in so many AUs because of Kacchan's bullying. fanon Deku is the one that actually jumps off the roof in so many fics, as opposed to fishing his notebook back out of the pond a few minutes later grumbling about how Kacchan needs to think before he speaks or else he could land himself in serious shit one day if god forbid anyone actually does take his cruel words to heart.

and just to clarify before I get any further, I am not saying this to excuse Kacchan's actions in any way, because what he did was still completely terrible and unacceptable and WAY over the line, and what's more he knew it, too. the bullying was still shitty and horrible and awful, and definitely impacted Deku and made him miserable. I fully acknowledge that, and that Kacchan has a lot of atoning to do for it. this is not a "Kacchan did nothing wrong" post.

but that being said, I don't think canon Deku's reckless self-sacrificing nature actually has anything to do with the bullying. I think they're two completely separate things. canon Deku actually has pretty decent self-esteem in spite of everything Kacchan did to him. canon Deku doesn't think he is useless. canon Deku had a wholeass fight with Kacchan less than 10 chapters into the series in which he explicitly spelled it out for Kacchan that he had a lot of worth, and was going to prove it to him. canon Deku was persistent in wanting to become a hero and hoping and believing that he could find some way in spite of being quirkless. canon Deku never let go of that dream even when no one else supported it. I don't think he would have even given up on it after being told no by All Might, tbh -- we just never got to see how it would have played out because of everything that happened with the sludge monster shortly afterward. but he's not the type to ever give up on something that easily, and we've seen that. canon Deku never thought he was useless, but rather wanted to prove to everyone else that he wasn't.

the drive that Deku has to save and protect others even at the expense of his own safety is something entirely separate from that. he doesn't break his body for others simply because he has no self-esteem and thinks that his own life isn't important. he does it because he can't stand the thought of someone else getting hurt, and knowing that he could have done something to prevent it. it's as simple as that. like, Spider-Man has the whole "with great power comes great responsibility" thing, right? and he doesn't have low self-esteem; he simply believes that if he has the ability to help someone else, then he has a responsibility to help them. it's a personal creed. and Deku is based on Spider-Man. his philosophy is based on that philosophy, which was one of Horikoshi's core influences and is one of the core creeds in superhero fiction.

Deku is self-destructive not because he doesn't value himself, but because he is literally physically incapable of standing back and doing nothing if he knows that he can do something. he's the type of person who sees a car speeding towards someone and leaps in to push them out of the way. NOT because he wants to get himself fucking pancaked by a speeding car, but simply because he can't sit back and watch the other person get hurt without taking action. his body moves before he can think. and that's where the whole "doesn't take himself into account" thing comes in -- the fact that his thought process simply stops at "get them out of the way of the car", and never extends beyond that to "hey, and maybe I should try to find a way to do this that doesn't involve me getting hit in their place." to him, that's simply less important than the first priority, which is getting the other person out of the way.

and regarding that last part, while that may seem like a self-worth issue if he's prioritizing everyone else above himself, I think what it actually is just selflessness taken to extremes. like for instance, when a parent sacrifices themselves to save their child, them placing the child's life above their own isn't necessarily because they don't see themselves as having value. rather, it's that they love the child so much that they place their well-being even above their own. and that's what Deku is like as well. except that in his case he cares about EVERYONE, and so is willing to sacrifice himself for anyone. and that selflessness is his defining character trait, and simultaneously the most admirable and the most terrifying thing about him. it's both his greatest strength and his greatest weakness, which I think is fascinating to explore.

but anyway, so that's also why we never really see anyone thoroughly chewing him out for this behavior either. because the thing is, it is admirable how selfless he is. it's just that there's also a reason why most people are at least a little bit selfish. and that's because too much selflessness will ultimately and inevitably wind up getting you killed. at some point you either have to learn when to put the oxygen mask on yourself first, or else find yourself a loyal group of friends (or classmates) to watch your back, and make sure that mask gets on you when you need it. and maybe help you land the plane too while they're at it.

anyway so that was a lot of rambling, but basically it all boils down to three things:

when Deku berates himself for being useless (for instance at the end of the War arc), he's doing it out of frustration for not being able to push the others out of the way of the metaphorical car. that's the kind of uselessness he can't stand. the sitting-back-and-doing-nothing uselessness.

Kacchan's bullying was terrible, and it might have indeed played a part in Deku's choice of the word "useless" as a way of berating himself in these instances, but he is not the one who gave Deku this mindset of taking himself out of the equation. that's something that was already inherent to Deku from day one. (but that said, Kacchan has a lot of things to apologize to Deku for anyway, so if he wants to add this to the list I certainly won't stop him. he gets mad about Deku's suicidal attitude because it worries him, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he doesn't feel responsible for it. people underestimated his feelings of atonement before 284/285, and I think they're still underestimating him now.)

and lastly, one last important note, which is that Deku's current "saving" mindset isn't wrong, just as Kacchan's "winning" mindset was not wrong either. the lesson to be learned here is NOT that being selfless and wanting to save other people is bad. rather, it's the fact that he's trying to do it alone that's got him all fucked up right now. basically when you think about it, selflessness is really just selfishness on someone else's behalf. which means that in order for Deku to be saved, it isn't necessary for him to change his outlook or his selfless attitude, even if it is pretty crazy lol. rather, all he really needs is a good group of friends who are willing to act selfishly on his behalf in return. protecting each other through mutual selflessness lol. teamwork as self-preservation. hence why the U.A. kids are here now.

anyway so yeah, I think that's everything. sorry this got so long and out of control lol. this is just a very specific nuanced thing that's hard for me to express, but which I feel is very important when it comes to Deku's character. Kacchan didn't unleash Depressed Nomad Deku on the world (or at least not in this respect). but that being said, he and the others will hopefully be the ones to nudge him back on the right course again.

[stupidstupidratcreatures]

jadis (+misc) thoughts

so there's a bunch of stuff i liked about. all that and a little bit that i didn't that's just been sticking with the comic since i started it

i did really really like how like... nuanced jadis was presented as. like all of the demiurges have a thing of "this person was made into what they are by their circumstances, they wanted on the winning team and not the losing one" (except for mammon LOL but he kinda had the same thing just in the reverse order) which i have continued to really like. but especially for jadis where like she's a victim ("" etc ymmv) of circumstance but also did have the agency to make one single choice, which was to immediately bite off more than she could chew and then be shocked into submission for all of it. i know abaddon had a whole thing about people trying to read into it as much as they could to make jadis a liar and how much she isn't that and like i don't think she is but i also don't think she's supposed to be this objective thing. like the specific word he used there was "reasonable". also re:that a little tom for the love of god can you turn off comments on your website they annoy me personally and also you it seems like

anyway so jadis got overwhelmed by knowing everything at once, we saw that happen to allison. like once that happens to you it's really hard to think about anything else. i think she just feels trapped by the whole thing, like she could (shulk voice) change the future by doing something else instead of what she's been predicted to do but the difference would be so small in The Scheme Of Things as to be meaningless. and yk like she does kinda do that, she spends weeks trying to get allison to just eat some food, which my next point: the three and a half years allison spent with jadis are presented as necessary recuperation instead of a waste of time. i really like that. like obviously she would've just died on the moon of rayuba if jadis hadn't offered her help but even beyond that the first panel after the six (billion. lol) month timeskip is her sitting outside, in clothes, not emaciated, eating and reading books. like that's really cool! she can do that again! and then the like zaid thing. which. man. first of all im just glad zaid and allison like actually were able to talk second of all he seems like a cool and nice dude. anyway like. zaid is obviously the reason allison leaves but like it's also just. jadis never had that. jadis can't have that. the only people that jadis is connected to are people who worship her for living in a hospital/being frozen in ice so like no help there like jadis is actually just fucking stuck there. forever. unless The Gang decides and is able to break her out. which i can dream both because i think it'd be cute and because it would be an actual cool writing move but like this will not be a thing that happens

anyway because of that i thought the thing where jadis introduced herself as the prescient one with the story about allison sitting next to that kid at lunch because she was the only one who wasn't weird about her and making her laugh before she died and then the. jadis saying goodbye to allison and thanking her for her presence as she says she's stupid for trying and she isn't coming with her. man can we get jadis a hug. for the love of god. like she's trying to help where she can and she's had way too much shit and she gave allison something physical to remember cio by even though shes being weird about it and. cries 10 million forever

also the way prosthetics were treated on the like 3 most recent pages felt really tasteless for reasons i don't feel like explaining but for reasons i think are probably pretty understandable. i really don't like the sff thing of prosthetics being treated as manifestations of like spiritual sickness (when they arent like symbolically evil etc etc) and like. for the arc that made me want to actually pick this back up because abaddon was talking about how trope-break-y it was etc etc like that's just really lame. letdown of the century, please be ableist in new and interesting ways next time. that said the "even if i'm in hell, nobody gets to tell me i can't enjoy myself" page is so fucking good. simply love to see it. cant wait for the page after that to be allison giving jadis a huge hug and bringing her with her and zaid

also, white chain alive! but we knew that already like she JUST got her human body. yes abaddon jokes a lot about doing character designs that he renders unusable by killing them on the next page but like cmon. we knew this. they didn't show a body

i'm going to bed now so the last thing i'll say rn is i'm still really fucking annoyed about allison only ever. i don't wanna say "feeling the bare minimum of emotion as required by the plot" because she feels very strongly about a lot of things but like you get what i mean. like a lot of the k6bd characters i get the sense of like, this is an interesting character. i want to know more about them and would be invested and entertained by a story different from the main one that focuses on them. like i don't get that with allison like she's being really depressed because the author wanted to write about depression now. like which is true of every character of course but. you know what like i played about 200 hours of a jrpg that i thought i would like way more than i did and that i tried to like way more that i did and like i'm so so so so so fucking sick of Main Characters who have zero like definable personality other than "i'm here to move the plot forward! i'm here for the audience to have a perspective imposed on them!" and like the evil mode thing doesn't even work there either because the jrpg guy had one of those too and his evil mode was still really dull but also actually a little bit interesting! like please for the love of god i need a character that justifies themself as a main character with something more than "audience perspective" like FUCK

[tomwambsmilk]

“And has a tendency to want to be good in this world. And she can be pretty harsh on Tom and I think Greg’s gut would be like, “You know what, leave her you’ll be less tortured.” taking out the buzz worthy quotes, i don’t think morality always has to be an overall picture of the world. maybe it can just be that he wants to see his friend have better. i just feel like that is a valid theme for both tom and greg, they tend to be the most open and probably think with their hearts because they don’t have to be as guarded or are as traumatized as the roy siblings

So I didn't answer this right away because I wanted to roll it around my brain for a bit. I don't necessarily entirely agree, but at the same time, you are kind of getting at some interesting ideas so I want to break it down a little.

But first - I'm going to drop the screenshot just so we're clear on what Nich actually said in its full context. Because he did say Greg was "on the side of morality in the show”. We don't have to talk about it but that did come out of his mouth, and if we take it at face value I do think it's a questionable statement:

Nich Braun is really the one who brought morality into this particular conversation. Yes, we can absolutely analyze the end of season 3 and Greg's potential response to Tom's actions through other lenses, but the reason we're talking about morality is that Nich started talking about morality, and his explanation for why Greg would be supportive of Tom hinged on the idea that Greg "wants to be good in this world" which… is a position that implies that either Greg sees himself as a moral actor or Nich sees Greg as a moral actor, depending on whether we take this at face value or assume Nich was implicitly speaking from a “Greg headspace”. (I do think there’s some real ambiguity in that.) And that's a really fascinating statement given how rarely his actions seem to reflect that on the show, hence the other post I wrote breaking down what we can assume about Greg's understanding of morality and what it means to be good from this. I do think a lot of people are overly fixating on the “Greg is on the side of morality” and “Shiv can be a real bitch” without considering the wider context - but we also can’t discount that he said those things just bc they’re kind of uncomfortable.

(And now that you mention it and I've been chewing on it for a while, it's extra interesting that Nich decided to bring up morality when he clearly didn't need to... He could've just said "Tom is Greg's friend and he wants better for him" and that would've been true and valid. So his need to morally justify it - or his reading that there is a moral dimension to this - is extra fascinating. But I'm getting sidetracked.)

So. Depending on exactly what it is you mean by "I don't think morality always has to be an overall picture of the world" I'm not sure how much I agree with that. I do agree that morality isn't the only lens through which to analyze the Succession characters and their actions and motivations, although it is one I keep coming back to because it is interesting to me personally. That being said, I do think it is an omnipresent dimension, even if we aren't actively analyzing the show through that lens. Most actions do have a moral dimension to them, and that's especially true on Succession. It's not always a clear-cut dimension - there are a lot of nuances involved in the choices the characters make - but I do think the questions of "are these choices morally good? are they morally bad? are they somewhere in between? what does this say about the characters?" are inescapable. It's very valid to have a conversation about "was it morally justifiable for Tom to betray Shiv, and is it morally justifiable for Greg to support him in that", even if the characters themselves aren't using that as a decision-making framework, because there is a moral dimension to those decisions, even if the characters don't think of it that way. And that conversation is especially valid because it is a complex question, and while I do have my own opinions on the subject there are a lot of different viewpoints that I think have some degree of validity to them.

It's also perfectly valid to say "tbh I don't really care and that isn't a lens that's super interesting to me personally". Morality is only one of the issues Succession grapples with, and you aren't required to hold an equal interest in every single facet of the show.

I also want to touch very briefly on the end of your ask because the idea that Tom and Greg are "thinking with their hearts" is REALLY interesting to me. I think you probably aren't gonna like the rest of my answer, so I'll say upfront that I do think analyzing the end of Season 3 through the lens of Tom and Greg's particular relationship, and the ways in which their lesser degree of attachment to the Roys proper allows for a greater degree of openness and emotional intimacy is absolutely a valid take. That's a very real thread, and holding the two of them (and I think Tom in particular) up as a foil to the Roy siblings is certainly interesting. But... I do think you have to go a bit deeper because while that idea is true, it's definitely not quite as straightforward as all that, and I don't think it can be entirely divorced from the question of how you're approaching morality.

On the one hand, you're right that they aren't as guarded as the Roy siblings are... On the other hand, they are still very guarded. Tom isn't very guarded with Shiv in season 1, but he is pretty guarded with Greg - at least in terms of actually expressing affection for him, hence all the bullying (that and the power trip involved, of course). By season 3 this has flipped somewhat, and we see him being more guarded with Shiv and more open with Greg, which is a really fascinating development in the Tom-Greg power dynamic - by being more open with Greg, Tom is effectively giving him a degree of power over him. But it's not as simple as Tom being open so much as - a) Tom seems to have a greater capacity for openness than Shiv and the Roy siblings do, likely as a consequence of not being brought up in the Roy family, and b) who he is open with and when is contingent upon a myriad of different factors. (On top of that - I don't know that Tom is all that open with Shiv at the beginning. We see him eating his emotions quite a lot - in the fight with her at the beginning of 1.06, on their wedding night, Ternhaven - hell, most of Season 2. There's a selective openness there which could be a whole point of analysis on its own.)

And I think I actually would characterize Greg as being pretty guarded, but he's also desperate for connection and affection, and that desire is constantly at odds with his fear of vulnerability. He's anxious that he's going to get burned by Ken, but he gives Ken the papers anyways. Tom is his best friend but he still feels the need to have leverage over him. So yeah, comparatively speaking Tom and Greg are more open than the Roys are, but they are still in the same cutthroat world, and so they can't really be all that open and unguarded. But there is a very interesting arc in terms of how their relationship with each other evolves in this context.

The idea that they think with their hearts is interesting, and if you weren't on anon I'd probably DM you to get some clarification on what exactly it is you mean by that because there are a couple of possible interpretations that come to mind for me. On the one hand, if you're talking about being driven primarily by a desire for love rather than being strategy minded, you're absolutely right - but in that case, this definitely is a trait they share with the Roy siblings. Every single character on this show is primarily motivated by love, even if they aren't admitting that to themselves.

(Another reason that's interesting to me is that I'd actually characterize Tom's arc as learning not to love, as becoming increasingly calloused and self-serving and strategic rather than prioritizing the people he loves. We see that death knell hit his marriage first - understandably, to be sure. I don't think it's going to stop at his marriage, though. I don't think Tom and Greg's relationship is coming out of this unscathed. I think Tom is increasingly starting to think like a Roy, and I think his new partnership with Logan is only going to enhance that, and I think that Greg has proven himself slimy and untrustworthy in the past and that he may end up as collateral damage because of this. But those are just my personal predictions, so who knows how it will actually play out.)

Anyways. To circle back, the one way Tom and Greg are different from the Roy sibs is Logan has spent the Roy kids' whole lives pitting them against each other. That means that in their pursuit of Logan's love, they have no choice but to go after each other. That's why they're only able to unite at the end of Season 3 after they've each individually despaired of receiving Logan's love and approval. They can either have Logan's love or they can have each other's, but not both.

Whereas Tom and Greg aren't stuck in that kind of dichotomy. Tom also wants to be loved, but his primary target is Shiv, and she isn't asking him to sacrifice any of his other relationships. She does ask him to sacrifice his career ambitions, which he does until he realizes it likely still will not result in the kind of marriage he wants. Greg wants to be loved by anybody, frankly, and Tom is the one who's most consistently validated him (as Nich pointed out), so by Season 3 Tom is the target of Greg's affections. And by the end of season 3, we get the sense that Tom does love Greg and will continue to do so even if Greg continues to try and fuck him over (although obviously, he'd prefer for that not to happen), if only because he doesn't hold Greg's momentary jaunt with Kendall against him. So yeah, in a sense both of them are able to pursue love more freely and openly because they don't have Logan pitting them against each other. (I do think this is likely to change at some point, but again, we're wading into my predictions here).

There's another dimension to the idea of them "thinking with their hearts" though, which is that it could also refer to the idea of them thinking with their desires. And this is where we circle back to the question of morality, I think, because... It sounds lovely and romantic to think with your heart, but if you want to be a good person you also need to think with your actual head. You kind of need both. Yes, I think a general state of willing the well-being of other people (which can be characterized as 'thinking with the heart') is important, but the thing is you also have to contend with the fact that your desires and your emotions can mislead you. In the course of your life, you will want things that do harm to others, or to yourself. This is part of being human. Your emotions, if not properly managed, will cause you to misread situations and react inappropriately. Desires and emotions are tools, important tools, but that can't be all you're running on because you will get into trouble.

And that's where I think you've kind of hit the nail on the head, albeit possibly accidentally if your end goal was to examine this through an amoral lens. I think it's one of the reasons why people struggle with the relatability of the Succession characters. They aren't good people, they keep doing things that are morally reprehensible, and yet... we find them compelling because we get it. We understand their desires and we recognize them in ourselves. We understand their emotions and we relate to them ourselves. What they're doing is wrong but we see how they got from point A to point B. The extent to which this is true for you personally for each character depends on your particular personality and traumas and issues, but I think it is true for everybody and that's part of why there's so much rancid discourse in the fandom. You see a character that's relatable and you either become a blind apologist for them, or you despise them because they remind you of what you hate in yourself. And I do think that instinct is there for everyone, even if you've learned to temper it, and if you don't think it's there for you that might be because you're lying to yourself just a bit. (Or maybe you're a normal well-adjusted person who finds all the characters abhorrent, but I think most people who are part of the Tumblr succession fandom don't fall into that category.)

To bring it back to Tom and Greg - yeah, I think they might actually be "thinking with their hearts", and I think that's part of the problem. They're being driven by their emotions and their desires, and they aren't thinking about the moral qualities of their actions, and that's why they keep making morally dubious choices, and it's why they're likely to continue making increasingly morally dubious choices. I think on some level that goes for all of the characters on the show, it's just that "thinking with their hearts" looks different for each of them.

(TBH there is a little more to it than just that, if we're going to analyze the moral dimension of these characters, but I'm saving that for a different post because that'll be the tangent to end all tangents.)

I imagine this is a manifestly unsatisfying response because it is basically the opposite of how you want to analyze the show. And at the end of the day - yeah, I do think "Tom is Greg's friend and he wants better for him" is an accurate assessment of the core of what's going on. Where the morality discussion comes in is a) Nich Braun positioning this as a morally good act, or at least a morally good act in Greg's mind, and b) the wider context of Tom betraying Shiv. Because it is possible to say that yes, Tom should leave Shiv, and yes, Shiv has been terrible to him, and no, betraying her like that was not a morally justifiable thing to do, depending on what your moral framework is (side note: personally I do think there is one convincing argument for it being justified, which I don't see laid out very often, but I am restraining myself from getting into it here). So the fact that either Nich or Greg (depending on what Nich Braun actually meant in the interview) thinks what Tom did is morally justified tells us a lot about Greg's moral framework (or possibly Nich's), and if, like me, you already spend a disproportionate amount of time thinking about how the Succession characters approach the concept of morality than that is exceedingly fascinating.

[itsbenedict]

Two-Faced Jewel: Session 2

Zero and @eternalfarnham are Looseleaf and Saelhen du Fishercrown, a mothfolk animist and a half-elf conwoman. A botched heist forces Saelhen to keep up her fake identity and embark on a quest to places unknown, with Looseleaf to keep a watchful compound eye on her. This time, they prepare to set out for the jungle city of Thunderbrush.

[Campaign log]

It's less than a week after the incident with the pit under Yoshimimoto Plaza. Looseleaf returns to school with Saelhen in tow, and Looseleaf's roommate Oyobi spends some time training them up in basic monster self-defense- the two of them are now level 2! Saelhen gains a Cunning Action, and Looseleaf embarks on the Path of the Mutable Spirit. (There's no combat this session, so more on that later.)

In spending some time with Looseleaf's roommate, Saelhen picks up on... certain nuances.

looseleaf: what you know about your roommate is that she is very friendly and outgoing. the reason she's barely home most of the time is that she's always out partying or fighting or otherwise living it up on campus, and she's pretty well-known and popular amongst the student body. she's technically Martial Arts but takes a few Natural Arts classes, including your archaeology class. she wants to be an adventurer and join the Deathseekers' Guild, and she's taking multiple periods of Severe Zoology to learn to fight monsters. she thinks you in particular are adorable and has probably invited you to various social gatherings. she seems kind of spacey and unreliable, though, and doesn't seem to take you seriously.

saelhen, what you know about looseleaf's roommate is that she a freak nobody else seems to pick up on this, since there's not a lot of other elves at Blacksky, but you can tell from the way she wears her clothes and how she interacts with strangers to the uninformed observer, her fashion sense is sort of rugged and sporty and normal to an elf, her usual outfits are the equivalent of going around dressed in torn booty shorts, a spiked choker, and an ahegao t-shirt she is very obviously making a statement, and that statement is "i can do whatever i want, and if you have a problem with that you can [insert grossly offensive euphemism here]" her super-smiley friendly attitude is clearly part of this- she is breaking every single rule in the elf book, going right for the friendship throat in every social interaction and ignoring every single nicety that's supposed to precede friendly contact she acts a little different around you- like, she expects you to be in on the joke she's playing on everyone around her. she'll say something seemingly innocuous that's a actually a horrendous boundary violation in Kanzentokai, and then look at you with an expectant smile, to see if you appreciated the hilarious prank she just pulled. being around her is like being in the studio audience for a cringe comedy sitcom

Why are we learning so much about Oyobi? Well, partially because I can't help but overthink every single bit character, but also for reasons that'll become clear shortly.

After a few days, Saelhen and Looseleaf are invited to the Provost's office, up at the top of Blacksky Tower. (Ominous sort of place, for a faculty building- hewn out of a single chunk of sparkling black stone, oldest building on campus.) They are not invited to sit- the office contains no chairs.

Provost Hamori Los has good news for them! The people she's had secretly monitoring Saelhen for the past few days- did she forget to mention that?- have determined, by triangulation, that the arrow on Saelhen's bracer is currently pointing in the direction of Thunderbrush, deep in the giant-spider-infested jungle. So that where they'll be going, on a fun field trip!

Looseleaf could not be happier about this. Or less happy. She's really got precisely the amount of unhappiness that she's obligated to feel about giant spiders, being a giant moth.

Luckily, they won't have to trek through the jungle- Hamori has arranged for transportation via the ferry at the town of Cauterdale, which should allow them to bypass a treacherous trek into the depths of the Remoline Rainforest. They'll each be provided 100gp as funding for this academic enterprise- and Headmaster Goodcrest of Thunderbrush Metropolitan University has agreed to provide lodging for them on arrival. Everything is handled for them- so there shouldn't be any problems!

There is one more thing, though- all the different schools want in on this trip, so one school doesn't get all the credit. They're required to bring along a representative from the School of Arcane Arts and the School of Martial Arts, on top of Looseleaf from Natural Arts. And on top of... the representative from the School of Restricted Arts.

This dude is named Vayen, and he's not much for conversation. Or explaining what he's even doing here. Or doing anything besides skulking a careful distance away from the party, staring and listening. What does the School of Restricted Arts even study, again?

Anyway, Looseleaf has someone in mind from Martial Arts, so she leads the party to the School of Arcane Arts to do some recruiting! After being chewed out by Two-Brains for trying to post notices outside the official student notice board, she puts up her ad:

It's not long before she gets a bite!

Orluthe Chokorov is a cleric-in-training, under Diamode, the Goddess of Family. He's been enrolled in Arcane Arts at the insistence of his family... but he seems to think he's a "fake", and is desperate to go somewhere, anywhere, as long as it means he passes his classes without having to actually... be able to do whatever it is he's taking classes in. He says he can fight, though- in fact, he's eager to fight! He once beat Bud Chestplate, did you know?

There are perhaps less delinquent candidates they could go with, but there's something nice about a party member with secrets Saelhen could use as blackmail.

Saelhen du Fishercrown: "...rest assured that I shall be the soul of discretion. As will Looseleaf." "Though I fear that deception of this sort does not come easily to me..." Looseleaf: "Noeru, if he doesn't want to get into it, he doesn't have to- oh my god."

Having recruited Orluthe, the party heads back to Looseleaf's dorm to ask Oyobi about the Martial Arts students- maybe she has some idea as to who would make a good candidate for the trip!

(This isn't me foisting her on the players, though I did suggest it- after the party of two squishies got wiped in the first encounter, I offered them the chance to put together two NPCs who they'd get to control in combat. Their character sheets were more or less created by the players, and I matched their mechanical requirements to NPCs. We may end up having multiple characters per PC, later- this is sort of a trial run.)

With a cleric(?) and a ranger on the team, plus whatever Vayen is that he won't tell them, they're feeling ready to hit the road- right after a shopping trip.

Saelhen buys...

1x bag of 1000 ball bearings

1x traveler's clothes

1x hooded lantern

15x doses of insect repellent salve (much to Looseleaf's great offense)

2x uses of sealing wax

1x tinderbox

fuck it, 4x more bags of 1000 ball bearings

Zero: 'what are you going to do with five thousand ball bearings' 'when the time comes, i'll know'

Looseleaf buys...

1x pint of oil

1x bag of 1000 ball bearings also

5x healer's kits, to distribute to the party

1x pouch of various plant seeds

1x map

Notably absent is any food, since they have Oyobi in their party- she's a ranger with the Goodberry spell. (I've reflavored it to just mean she's good at foraging and always has rations on hand, because holy crap, Goodberry rules-as-written is totally worldbreaking- why would farms exist?)

During their shopping trip, Saelhen manages to get Oyobi alone, without the rest of the party. Oyobi's shtick has been fun, for her, as someone with very little regard for elven rules of politeness, but... it's still a little much. She asks Oyobi to tone it down.

Oyobi Yamatake: "I mean, I thought you had to no-sell it to keep up the fake noble act- I didn't think it was actually getting you!" "That's priceless, oh my god." "What's there to take a 'break' from, anyway? What's wrong with just living?" Saelhen du Fishercrown: "Primarily, the fact that I really need not to twitch in front of the Provost's silent murder goon." Saelhen jerks a thumb over her shoulder, then belatedly checks to make sure that Vayen is not in fact literally right behind her. Benedict I. (GM): Make a Perception roll? Saelhen du Fishercrown: aw, hell, he definitely is, isn't he

She rolls a 13, and no one in particular rolls a 17. So, everything is fine. They keep their voices down, anyway.

Oyobi Yamatake: "I mean, is it really a problem? Can you really not keep a straight face?" Saelhen du Fishercrown: "I mean, I can." Saelhen sweeps a hand over her face and is the picture of serenity. "Why should the lady Noeru de la Surplus concern herself with small lapses such as these?" "Surely someone shall find it in their hearts to forgive all trespasses." Oyobi Yamatake: She snorts. "Okay, I get your point." "But really, don't you think it's weirder for an elven noblewoman not to react?" "You don't think he thinks it's suspicious that you take it all in stride?" Saelhen du Fishercrown: "The character is admittedly kind of a freak. I'm making allowances. I mean, this is fun and all, but if no one sees through the bit at all and I'm stuck in it long-term, which it seems like I am, it's like..." "Just being back in Kanzentokai, except worse, because no one is making me." "And drow catch a lot of crap anyway. They don't need me to teach them that elves can be assholes." Oyobi Yamatake: She frowns. "You can't make me try to keep up with the rules, y'know. I'm not going to put up with that garbage ever again." "But I can tone it down with the..." "Y'know, the stuff I'm going out of my way to do, if that helps." Saelhen du Fishercrown: "The wink-and-nudge, yeah. That would help." Oyobi Yamatake: She sighs. She seems a little put out by all this, but pretty quickly puts her happy face back on.

Meanwhile, Looseleaf and Orluthe seem to have lost track of Vayen. It doesn't take them long to find out where he went (well, after Looseleaf rolls a nat 1 on investigation and accidentally pisses off an old lady she mistook for Vayen). Turns out... he's hiding behind a statue of Ccorde, spying on Saelhen and Oyobi.

Looseleaf doesn't buy his crappy excuses, but also... she isn't altogether opposed to the concept of spying on "Lady Noeru de la Surplus", who really ought to have someone keeping an eye on her. So, she just hands him a medical kit- a kit she happens to have used her animist class feature Soul Link on, so she knows where it is at all times. (She's done the same to the bracer.)

Now, with the shopping done, it's time to hit the road! They have a couple options: go on foot, or requisition some giraffes.

(In this world, they domesticated giraffes instead of horses. Why? Because it's a fantasy world and why not?)

The city's main giraffe rental is run by the Ecumene of Understanding, based out of the Temple of Andra. You can rent giraffes for free, as long as you're willing to serve as a courier for the Ecumene- their convoluted legal system requires them to send mail between cities frequently, and they've only got so many clerics on hand. So, anyone wanting to travel the roads can receive a delivery quest from the Ecumene, and rent mounts for free in exchange!

They meet with the Bishop of Understanding of Oyashio, Sarat Aerens.

Aerens has a simple request for them: in addition to visiting Thunderbrush's Temple of Andra with a mail delivery, they're to bring back a report from said temple on the whereabouts of the Siren's Arraignment, a ship that departed from Oyashio and never arrived at its next destination, Snowhold. There's suspicion that the Siren's Arraignment never departed from its supposed origin of Thunderbrush to begin with, either- so the Ecumene put some clerics on the job to investigate, and the party's job is just to relay their message.

With that, they're given giraffe passes, and directed down to the stables, where they find the stablehand, Updraft, having some difficulties.

Benedict I. (GM):There's no one at the pickup window, but there's a sparrow aarakocra just behind, trying to get a giraffe several times her height to get up and out of the damn water trough. Updraft: "...not a bath, ye stubborn git!" "Ye drink from that, lackbrains!" "Y'really want t'be tastin' yer arse?" Looseleaf: OH I CAN HELP WITH THIS FINALLY, A PLACE WHERE I CAN APPLY MY ADVANTAGE ON ANIMAL HANDLING

Looseleaf uses her Soul Read ability to tune in to the giraffe's feelings and recent history, and discovers that someone fed it a hot pepper and it's in, um, anal distress.

Orluthe volunteers to do some healing to the giraffe, with his Lay On Hands ability. Is... that a cleric thing? Do clerics do that? Probably. In this world, clerics perform magic by inviting their god directly into their mind to borrow their brainpower and work miracles directly, and it sure looks like he does that when he does his healing. He channels a god, for sure!

Benedict I. (GM): As he touches the giraffe, you see his body begin to glow, and his facial features are overlaid with another face. "...A giraffe?" "A waste, I suppose, but... perhaps it'll win us some favor." The voice he speaks in sounds more feminine, somehow.

Some religion checks reveal that this doesn't seem quite right for a cleric of Diamode, the goddess of Family. But hey, healing's healing, right?

With that, they're able to get their giraffes no problem- and next time, they'll be on the road to Thunderbrush!

[healthytimes-blog1]

The Weight Loss Trap: The key reasons why Your Diet regimen Isn't really Performing

Understanding exactly what it is about an offered diet that works for a given individual stays the holy grail of weight-loss science. But professionals are getting better.

They likewise know that the very best diet plan for you is really most likely not the very best diet for your next-door neighbor. Private responses to various diet plans-- from slim and vegan to low carb and paleo-- vary enormously. "Some people on a diet program lose 60 pound. and keep it off for 2 years, and other people follow the exact same program consistently, and they acquire 5 lb.," states Frank Sacks, a leading weight-loss scientist and professor of heart disease avoidance at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health. "If we can find out why, the prospective to assist individuals will be big."

" There's nothing wonderful about exactly what they do," states Wing. "Some people highlight exercise more than others, some follow low-carb diet plans, and some follow low-fat diet plans. The one commonness is that they needed to make changes in their everyday habits.".

Hall, a researcher at the National Institutes of Health (NIH), started seeing The Biggest Loser a couple of years ago on the recommendation of a buddy. "I saw these folks stepping on scales, and they lost 20 lb. in a week," he says. On the one hand, it tracked with extensive beliefs about weight loss: the workouts were punishing and the diet plans limiting, so it stood to reason the males and women on the show would slim down. Still, 20 lb. in a week was a lot. To comprehend how they were doing it, he decided to study 14 of the participants for a clinical paper.

The entrants lose an enormous quantity of weight in a reasonably brief amount of time-- undoubtedly not how most doctors suggest you lose weight-- but research study reveals that the same slowing metabolism Hall observed has the tendency to happen to regular Joes too. Many people who slim down gain back the pounds they lost at a rate of 2 to 4 pound. each year.

Hall, Sacks and other scientists are revealing that the secret to weight reduction seems extremely personalized rather than fashionable diets. And while weight reduction will never be easy for anyone, the evidence is installing that it's possible for anyone to reach a healthy weight-- individuals just require to find their best way there.

That's not what took place when individuals went slim, though. The diet trend accompanied weight gain. In 1990, adults with obesity comprised less than 15% of the United States population. By 2010, many states were reporting weight problems in 25% or more of their populations. Today that has actually swelled to 40% of the adult population. For kids and teenagers, it's 17%.

Exactly what the majority of these diets shared was a concept that is still popular today: eat less calories and you will reduce weight. Even the low-fat craze that began in the late 1970s-- which was based upon the intuitively appealing but incorrect idea that consuming fat will make you fat-- depended upon the calorie-counting model of weight reduction. (Since fatty foods are more calorie-dense than, say, plants, reasoning suggests that if you eat less of them, you will take in less calories in general, and after that you'll reduce weight.).

What Hall discovered, nevertheless-- and what frankly surprised him-- was that even when the Biggest Loser candidates acquired back a few of their weight, their resting metabolism didn't speed up in addition to it. Instead, in a harsh twist, it remained low, burning about 700 fewer calories per day than it did before they began dropping weight in the first location. "When individuals see the slowing metabolic process numbers," says Hall, "their eyes bulge like, How is that even possible?".

For the 2.2 billion people all over the world who are overweight, Hall's findings can look like a formula for failure-- and, at the very same time, scientific vindication. They show that it's certainly biology, not simply a lack of self-control, that makes it so hard to drop weight. The findings also make it seem as if the body itself will undermine any effort to keep weight off in the long term.

The scientists have actually determined some resemblances amongst them: 98% of individuals in the research study state they modified their diet in some method, with the majority of cutting back on what does it cost? they consumed in a given day. Another through line: 94% increased their physical activity, and the most popular kind of exercise was strolling.

Dieting has actually been an American preoccupation because long prior to the obesity epidemic took off in the 1980s. In the 1830s, Presbyterian minister Sylvester Graham touted a vegetarian diet that left out spices, condiments and alcohol. At the turn of the 20th century, it was trendy to chew food up until liquefied, sometimes approximately 722 times prior to swallowing, thanks to the guidance of a popular nutrition expert named Horace Fletcher. Tradition has it that at about the exact same time, President William Howard Taft adopted a fairly modern strategy-- low fat, low calorie, with a daily food log-- after he got stuck in a White House bathtub.

The scientists have actually also looked at their mindsets and habits. They found that most of them do not consider themselves Type A, resolving the idea that only compulsive superplanners can stick to a diet plan. They found out that lots of effective dieters were self-described morning people. (Other research study supports the anecdotal: for some reason, night owls tend to weigh more than larks.) The researchers also noticed that individuals with long-term weight loss had the tendency to be motivated by something aside from a slimmer waist-- like a health scare or the desire to live a longer life, to be able to spend more time with liked ones.

The most revealing information about the windows registry: everyone on the list has actually lost substantial amounts of weight-- but in various methods. About 45% of them state they lost weight following various diet plans on their own, for circumstances, and 55% say they utilized a structured weight-loss program. And many of them needed to attempt more than one diet plan before the weight reduction stuck.

Hall quickly learned that in reality-TV-land, a week does not always equate into an accurate seven days, but no matter: the weight being lost was real, fast and substantial. Over the course of the season, the candidates lost an average of 127 lb. each and about 64% of their body fat. If his research study might discover what was taking place in their bodies on a physiological level, he thought, maybe he 'd be able to help the shocking 71% of American grownups who are obese.

Research study like Hall's is starting to discuss why. As demoralizing as his preliminary findings were, they weren't entirely unexpected: more than 80% of individuals with obesity who drop weight gain it back. That's because when you slim down, your resting metabolic process (what does it cost? energy your body uses when at rest) slows down-- possibly an evolutionary holdover from the days when food deficiency was typical.

The 1960s saw the start of the massive commercialization of dieting in the U.S. That's when a New York homemaker called Jean Nidetch started hosting good friends at her the home of talk about their concerns with weight and dieting. Nidetch was a self-proclaimed cookie lover who had actually had a hard time for several years to slim down. Her weekly meetings assisted her so much-- she lost 72 pound. in about a year-- that she eventually turned those living-room events into a company called Weight Watchers. When it went public in 1968, she and her co-founders ended up being millionaires overnight. Almost half a century later on, Weight Watchers stays among the most commercially successful diet plan business on the planet, with 3.6 million active users and $1.2 billion in revenue in 2016.

What researchers are discovering ought to bring fresh intend to the 155 million Americans who are obese, according to the United States Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Leading researchers lastly concur, for instance, that exercise, while important to great health, is not a particularly trusted method to keep off body fat over the long term. And the excessively simple arithmetic of calories in vs. calories out has paved the way to the more nuanced understanding that it's the structure of an individual's diet-- instead of just how much of it they can burn exercising-- that sustains weight loss.

In the following years, when being rail-thin ended up being ever preferred, nearly all dieting advice worried meals that were low calorie. There was the grapefruit diet plan of the 1930s (where individuals consumed half a grapefruit with every meal out of a belief that the fruit included fat-burning enzymes) and the cabbage-soup diet of the 1950s (a flatulence-inducing plan where people consumed cabbage soup every day for a week along with low-calorie meals).

But a slower metabolism is not the full story. Despite the biological chances, there are many individuals who are successful in reducing weight and keeping it off. Hall has seen it occur more times than he can count. The catch is that some individuals appear to prosper with almost every diet method-- it simply differs from person to individual.

The idea of the calorie as a system of energy had been studied and shared in scientific circles throughout Europe for a long time, however it wasn't until World War I that calorie counting became de rigueur in the United States Amid worldwide food lacks, the American federal government required a way to encourage individuals to cut back on their food consumption, so it provided its very first ever "clinical diet" for Americans, which had calorie counting at its core.

It's likewise fueled a rise in research. Last year the NIH offered an estimated $931 million in financing for obesity research study, consisting of Hall's, and that research study is offering researchers a brand-new understanding of why dieting is so hard, why keeping the weight off with time is even more difficult and why the dominating knowledge about weight reduction appears to work just in some cases-- for some individuals.

That may be depressing enough to make even the most determined dieter quit. "There's this notion of why bother attempting," says Hall. However finding answers to the weight-loss puzzle has never been more crucial. The vast bulk of American adults are obese; nearly 40% are clinically overweight. And physicians now know that excess body fat drastically increases the threat of serious health issue, consisting of Type 2 diabetes, heart disease, depression, breathing problems, major cancers and even fertility issues. A 2017 research study found that obesity now drives more early preventable deaths in the United States than cigarette smoking. This has actually sustained a weight-loss industry worth $66.3 billion, offering everything from diet plan pills to meal plans to fancy gym subscriptions.

The scientists at the NWCR state it's not likely that the individuals they study are somehow genetically endowed or blessed with a personality that makes weight loss easy for them. After all, the majority of people in the study say they had actually stopped working several times prior to when they had actually tried to lose weight. Rather they were extremely inspired, and they kept attempting various things up until they discovered something that worked for them.

" Why do not they just eat less and exercise more?" he remembers thinking. Trained as a physicist, the calories-in-vs.- calories-burned equation for weight-loss always made good sense to him. However then his own research study-- and the participants on a smash reality-TV program-- showed him incorrect.

" You take a lot of individuals and randomly appoint them to follow a low-carb diet plan or a low-fat diet," Hall states. "You follow them for a number of years, and what you tend to see is that average weight-loss is almost no different between the 2 groups as a whole. But within each group, there are people who are really effective, people who don't lose any weight and individuals who put on weight.".

For the past 23 years, Rena Wing, a professor of psychiatry and human behavior at Brown University, has actually run the National Weight Control Registry (NWCR) as a way to track individuals who successfully drop weight and keep it off. "When we started it, the viewpoint was that practically no one succeeded at reducing weight and keeping it off," says James O. Hill, Wing's collaborator and a weight problems researcher at the University of Colorado. "We didn't think that held true, but we didn't understand for sure due to the fact that we didn't have the data.".

To certify for preliminary addition in the computer registry, a person must have lost a minimum of 30 pound. and preserved that weight reduction for a year or longer. Today the registry includes more than 10,000 individuals from throughout the 50 states with an average weight reduction of 66 lb. per individual. Usually, individuals on the existing list have kept off their weight for more than five years.

What he didn't anticipate to learn was that even when the conditions for weight-loss are TV-perfect-- with a hard but encouraging trainer, telegenic medical professionals, stringent meal strategies and killer workouts-- the body will, in the long run, fight like hell to get that fat back. With time, 13 of the 14 candidates Hall studied acquired, on average, 66% of the weight they 'd lost on the program, and four were much heavier than they were prior to the competitors.

Like most people, Kevin Hall used to believe the factor people get fat is easy.

When asked how they've had the ability to keep the weight off, the large majority of individuals in the study state they consume breakfast every day, weigh themselves at least as soon as a week, see less than 10 hours of television per week and workout about an hour a day, on average.

However the majority of people do not need to lose quite so much weight to enhance their health. Research study shows that with just a 10% loss of weight, individuals will experience visible modifications in their blood pressure and blood sugar level control, reducing their threat for cardiovascular disease and Type 2 diabetes-- two of the costliest illness in terms of health care dollars and human life.

"Losing weight and keeping it off is hard, and if anyone tells you it's simple, run the other way," says Hill. "But it is absolutely possible, when individuals do it, their lives are altered for the better." (Hill came under fire in 2015 for his function as president of a weight problems think tank moneyed by Coca-Cola. During his tenure there, the NWCR published one paper with partial funding from Coca-Cola, however the researchers state their study, which Hill was associated with, was not affected by the soda giant's financial support.).

In a 2015 study, Segal and Elinav gave 800 males and females devices that determined their blood-sugar levels every five minutes for a one-week period. They submitted surveys about their health, offered blood and stool samples and had their microbiomes sequenced. They also utilized a mobile app to tape their food consumption, sleep and workout.

The Bariatric Medical Institute in Ottawa is established on that thinking. When people register in its weight-loss program, they all begin on the same six-month diet plan and workout strategy-- but they are motivated to diverge from the program, with the aid of a doctor, whenever they want, in order to determine what works best for them. The program takes a whole-person technique to weight-loss, which indicates that habits, psychology and budget-- not simply biology-- notify everyone's strategy.

Exactly why weight-loss can differ so much for people on the exact same diet plan still eludes researchers. "It's the biggest open question in the field," states the NIH's Hall. "I wish I knew the response.".

Once she started dealing with the group at the Bariatric Medical Institute, Casagrande also tracked her food, but unlike Jeans, she never delighted in the procedure. What she did love was exercise. She discovered her exercises easy to fit into her schedule, and she discovered them motivating. By fulfilling with the clinic's psychologist, she likewise discovered that she had actually generalized stress and anxiety, which assisted explain her bouts of psychological consuming.

Up until now, research to support the probiotic-pill method to weight loss is scant. Ditto the hereditary tests that claim to be able to tell you whether you're much better off on a low-carb diet plan or a vegan one.

It took Casagrande three tries over 3 years before she finally lost significant weight. During among her relapse periods, she gained 10 lb. She tweaked her strategy to focus more on cooking and handling her psychological health then tried again. Today she weighs 116 pound. and has actually preserved that weight for about a year. "It takes a lot of experimentation to find out what works," she says. "Not every day is going to be ideal, however I'm here due to the fact that I pushed through the bad days.".

In many cases, individuals try a few different strategies prior to they get it right. Jody Jeans, 52, an IT project supervisor in Ottawa, had been obese considering that she was a child. When she concerned the clinic in 2007, she was 5 ft. 4 in. tall and weighed 240 pound. Though she had actually dropped weight in her 20s doing Weight Watchers, she acquired it back after she lost a task and the tension led her to eat way too much. Denims would get up on a Monday and choose she was starting a diet, or never consuming dessert once again, just to ditch the plan a number of days, if not hours, later. "Unless you've had a great deal of weight to lose, you do not understand exactly what it's like," she states. "It's overwhelming, and people take a look at you like it's your fault.".

However as science continues to point toward personalization, there's capacity for brand-new weight-loss items to flood the zone, some with more evidence than others.

It took Jeans five years to lose 75 pound. while on a program at Freedhoff's institute, however by paying attention to portion sizes, documenting all her meals and consuming more regular, smaller meals throughout the day, she's kept the weight off for an additional 5 years. She credits the slow, consistent speed for her success. Though she's never been particularly encouraged to work out, she discovered it valuable to track her food each day, along with make sure she consumed enough filling protein and fiber-- without needing to depend on bland diet staples like grilled chicken over greens (hold the dressing). "I'm a foodie," Jeans says. "If you informed me I needed to eat the exact same things every day, it would be torture.".

Another area that has actually some scientists thrilled is the question of how weight gain is connected to chemicals we are exposed to every day-- things like the bisphenol A (BPA) discovered in linings of canned-food containers and cash-register receipts, the flame retardants in sofas and bed mattress, the pesticide residues on our food and the phthalates discovered in plastics and cosmetics. What these chemicals have in typical is their ability to imitate human hormones, and some scientists worry they might be ruining the fragile endocrine system, driving fat storage.

" We have a strategy that includes getting enough calories and protein etc, however we are not married to it," says Dr. Yoni Freedhoff, a weight problems professional and the medical director of the clinic. "We try to understand where people are having a hard time, then we adjust. Everyone here is doing things a little in a different way.".

" Unfortunately," he states, "that's not the norm. The quantity of effort had to understand your patients is more than numerous physicians put in.".

Natalie Casagrande, 31, was on the exact same program that Jeans was on, however Freedhoff and his colleagues utilized a various method with her. Casagrande's weight had actually fluctuated throughout her life, and she had attempted hazardous diets like starving herself and working out continuously for quick weight reduction. One time, she even dropped from a size 14 to a size 0 in just a few months. When she registered for the program, Casagrande weighed 173 pound. At 4 ft. 11 in., that suggested she was medically overweight, which implies having a body mass index of 30 or more.

They found that blood-sugar levels differed commonly amongst people after they consumed, even when they consumed the exact very same meal. This suggests that umbrella recommendations for the best ways to eat could be meaningless. "It was a major surprise to us," says Segal.

" The old paradigm was that bad diet plan and lack of workout are underpinning weight problems, today we comprehend that chemical direct exposures are a crucial third factor in the origin of the obesity epidemic," states Dr. Leonardo Trasande, an associate professor of pediatrics, environmental medication and population health at New York University's School of Medicine. "Chemicals can interfere with hormones and metabolism, which can contribute to disease and special needs.".

The researchers developed an algorithm for each person in the trial using the data they collected and found that they could properly anticipate an individual's blood-sugar action to a provided food on the basis of their microbiome. That's why Elinav and Segal think the next frontier in weight-loss science depends on the gut; they believe their algorithm could ultimately help medical professionals prescribe highly particular diets for people according to how they react to various foods.

When individuals are asked to picture their ideal size, numerous cite a dream weight loss as much as 3 times as fantastic as what a medical professional may suggest. Given how challenging that can be to pull off, it's not a surprise numerous people offer up attempting to drop weight entirely. It's informing, if a little bit of a downer, that in 2017, when Americans have never ever been much heavier, less individuals than ever state they're aiming to reduce weight.

Some speculate it's individuals's genes. Over the previous a number of years, scientists have recognized almost 100 genetic markers that seem connected to being overweight or being obese, and there's no doubt genes play an important role in how some people break down calories and shop fat. However professionals estimate that obesity-related genes account for just 3% of the differences between people's sizes-- and those same genes that incline individuals to weight gain existed 30 years ago, and 100 years back, suggesting that genes alone can not describe the fast rise in obesity.

Another frontier scientists are checking out is how the microbiome-- the trillions of bacteria that live inside and on the surface of the body-- might be affecting how the body metabolizes specific foods. Dr. Eran Elinav and Eran Segal, researchers for the Personalized Nutrition Project at the Weizmann Institute of Science in Israel, believe the variation in diet success may lie in the way people's microbiomes react to various foods.

Unsurprisingly, there are enterprising services attempting to cash in on this concept. Online supplement business currently hawk personalized probiotic tablets, with testimonials from customers claiming they reduced weight taking them.

Freedhoff says learning exactly what variables are essential for each individual-- be they psychological, logistical, food-based-- matters more to him than identifying one diet plan that works for everyone. "So long as we continue to pigeonhole people into particular diet plans without considering the people, the most likely we are to face issues," he states. That's why a substantial portion of his meetings with patients is invested speaking about the individual's daily obligations, their socioeconomic status, their mental health, their comfort in the cooking area.

What's more, a current study of 9,000 people discovered that whether an individual carried a gene variation connected with weight gain had no impact on his/her capability to drop weight. "We think this readies news," states research study author John Mathers, a teacher of human nutrition at Newcastle University. "Carrying the high-risk kind of the gene makes you more most likely to be a bit heavier, but it should not prevent you from losing weight.".

A March 2017 research study found that people who internalize weight stigma have a harder time maintaining weight loss. That's why most specialists argue that pressing individuals toward health objectives instead of a number on the scale can yield much better outcomes. "When you exclusively concentrate on weight, you may offer up on changes in your life that would have favorable advantages," says the NIH's Hall.

For Ottawa's Jody Jeans, recalibrating her expectations is exactly what assisted her lastly reduce weight in a healthy-- and sustainable-- way. People may take a look at her and see somebody who could still manage to lose a few pounds, she says, but she's proud of her existing weight, and she is well within the variety of what an excellent doctor would call healthy." You have to accept that you're never going to be a willowy model," she states. "But I am at a very great weight that I can manage.".

Hill, Wing and their coworkers concur that maybe the most motivating lesson to be obtained from their registry is the easiest: in a group of 10,000 real-life biggest losers, no two individuals lost the weight in rather the same way.

In an August op-ed released in the journal the Lancet, Freedhoff and Hall jointly called on the scientific community to spend more time finding out how doctors can assist individuals sustain healthy way of lives and less on exactly what diet plan is best for weight loss. "Crowning a diet plan king since it provides a clinically meaningless difference in body weight fuels diet hype, not diet plan assistance," they compose. "It's high time we start helping.".