#which was a similar experience i had with ttpd

[edwardshundredyearoldspunk]

truly The Tortured Poets Department is going to be one of those albums that will only get it's laurels decades from now. it's going to be her Pet Sounds, her Pinkerton. even if right now a lot of people hate it, fifty years from now people will understand what it was trying to do

[starrywilliams]

guilty as sin? | abby anderson

“these fatal fantasies giving way to labored breath, taking all of me, we’ve already done it in my head”

warnings: masturbation, slight masochism, ruined orgasm, angst, perv!abby (a little), internalized homophobia (discussed in more detail below)

notes: no surprise my favourite ttpd song is the gayest one on the album, but guilty as sin? screams lesbian guilt i fear!!!! i’ve been writing this for over a month so i hope u guys like it 😭

cw: discussion of lesbian guilt & comphet - these are somewhat based on my own experiences with my sexuality and i absolutely!!! do not think a man can ‘cure’ a lesbian or anything similar to that. nor do i believe anyone should ever feel guilty for being gay. realising i’m a lesbian has been extremely freeing & dykes r the best x

wc: 1.8k

likes, comments + reblogs are greatly appreciated :)

the door slammed harshly behind abby as she stormed into her room. she pulled her jacket off desperately; her skin hot under its tight vice. she’d been in the gym, trying to work out her endless frustration of late, when you’d walked in.

you’d only said “hi" and smiled politely at her before setting your things down. but she felt her stomach churn, a black hole opening inside her. abby stood up, pulling the weights off the barbell and onto their rack. she grunted softly, glancing at you from the corner of her eye.

you’d started stretching, currently bent over as you touched your toes. her eyes drifted for an infinitesimal moment, locking onto the swell of your-. she looked away - wrongwrongwrong.

but then she looked back, her stare feasting on your body. she wondered whether you were doing this on purpose, trying to tempt her from across the room. she wondered if you knew her dirty little secret, abby picturing a smirk on your face as you mocked her for such indecent thoughts.

she didn’t want to feel this way. she didn’t want to feel the poison ivy swarming around her chest, getting tighter, tighter. the rash spread inside her; this invisible whip of lust lashing against her skin whenever your face appeared in her mind. well, had it been just your face maybe she wouldn’t feel like some depraved sinner.

now it wasn’t like abby believed in god, in a world where death and destruction infect every crevice you’d have to be mad to believe that any ‘god’ wanted its followers to suffer so greatly. but something inside her screamed every time she had these thoughts. these impure, twisted thoughts about you.

she didn’t know what made her feel like this. what made her resent you for simply existing; and what made her resent herself.

she recalled her teenage years, when manny had subtly suggested that owen liked her - so she was supposed to like him back, right? and she tried! she loved him even - but there was always that something, that feeling in her gut that told her that something was wrong, something about him that just would never sit right with her.

but all the other girls wanted a boyfriend too, and the jealousy was nice at first - she’d thought. after all, mel was the star student, a doctor in the making, her dad’s favourite; and nora was this freshly trained medical officer, and abby was- abby was just abby.

her dad began noticing her more too - previously too preoccupied with his firefly duties and his favourite student. now his little girl was slipping away from him, he finally began paying her the amount of attention she’d craved for so long.

before, their conversations had often drifted into talk of mel and her new achievements, or his hopes of a vaccine, or some animal he was tracking. never anything about his daughter’s life.

having a boyfriend made her interesting, it gave the other girls something to envy. which was a nice reversal, for a while. then her dad died, and she had become this object of pity. owen helped a bit, she supposed. he tried to distract her and keep her focused on their new role as soldiers, but she barely cared about him anymore. all she wanted was revenge, and with revenge, came you.

you were one of the gyms trainers, passionate about helping the members of the wlf stay fit and healthy! you’d helped her start lifting weights, squealed as she reached every milestone, and had remarked jokingly about just how much you loved her new physique.

it was innocent at first, the most being her brain going a little fuzzy when you’d bit your lip while spotting her; a slight blush when you’d hugged her a little too tight. then, once she and owen were finally broken up, these new pictures began hanging themselves on the walls of her mind. still, innocent, just slightly tainted with desire - the true nature of them still an avoidable matter for her back then.

when she could ignore the truth in her recent behaviour, abby loved spending time with you. after all, you were just really good friends! anyway, she’d had a boyfriend before so everyone knew she was normal, and absolutely not different, and she would never ever have to feel like an outsider.

yet it took a mere three months before she gave up on this foolish lie. she liked you, and as long as nobody ever found out, it wouldn’t matter.

but as her mind grew dark and twisted - joel a constant topic in her head as she obsessed over finally getting to enact revenge - her thoughts got worse in turn. she wanted you - filthily and desperately.

every gym session ended with another cold shower, a desperate plea for her body to stop and let her focus on the task at hand; a hopeless attempt to bury this ache into the ground; an endless endeavour to escape these urges for just one second.

but then she came back changed, every hair on her body endlessly erected with guilt. the way she’d killed him so mercilessly, the way it had done nothing to ease the pain, and the way you had tormented her mind ceaselessly throughout the entire trip.

maybe, had she never met you, she could’ve just killed him and been satisfied. maybe had you never offered to train her personally, she could’ve just stayed comfortable in that stuffy closet. maybe if she found the right man she’d stop feeling this way.

abby deemed such ideas unfathomable now.

owen made her feel nothing. being with him was like an eternal thursday, an endless wait for the week’s end and its pleasure to turn up at her door. every day she’d wait for some spark to arrive, the routine only becoming more and more tedious by the minute. but he helped her get people’s attention, which was enough when she was just abby.

but then she was abby anderson, top scar killer and isaac’s favourite. she got attention on her own, she was praised for her own accomplishments: people worshipped the fucking ground she walked on. but they didn’t know who she really was.

they didn’t know she liked girls the way she was supposed to like boys. she’d seen it in enough of those wlf movie nights - cruel jokes about anyone who even thought about being different. she’d heard the way people gossiped, “did you hear that they’re moving lesbians into the family unit? what a joke.”

they said it like it was something dirty, something egregious, something that she had to hate about herself. so she did.

but as long as she kept it secret, kept it locked away in her mind, maybe she’d be okay. after all, only your actions talk: it was the age old question really, if a tree falls in a forest and no one else hears it, does it make a sound?

abby fell back against her bed sheets, calloused hands pushing her cargos down to her ankles as she replayed the sight of you in her mind. bent over - she felt like you were trying to tempt her on purpose.

she felt like a heathen; staring, fantasizing, worshipping. her mind was bursting with the idea of every possible position she could put you in; head a chorus of every little noise she wanted to hear you make; eyes screwed shut as depravity filled her every sense.

she shoved her bralette up her chest roughly, fingertips dragging over her nipples with little mercy. she pinched them, the peach skin stinging underneath her touch.

she wanted it to hurt; wanted it to feel like some sort of punishment for her thoughts. but as her hips bucked into the air, a long whine dragging from her clenched jaw, she realised it needed to hurt more.

she imagined you, finding her like this. disgust burnt into your features - what the fuck was she doing? repeating your name like some subverted prayer, fingers harshly scratching along her stomach as she tried to make the pleasure feel more like pain, trying to induce some connection between the two.

if it hurt enough, would she stop? force herself to forget? could she torture this part of herself until it surrendered?

her hand slipped over the top of her boxers, a finger running tentatively over her clit through the now darkened fabric. she bit down on her lip, groaning against it as she pushed down harder and harder, attempting to break through the skin.

another finger pressed down, beginning to draw circles down on the throbbing bud. she jolted against her own touch, your head between her legs burning into her mind. your hands, trailing along her flesh - groping at her with little tenderness; tongue, swiping at her pussy with no intent of fulfillment: she wanted you to make her weep, smoke out her lungs with shame, deny her from gratification until all she could feel was regret.

she pulled away, only to cover her fingertips with her spit - diving under her boxers to continue with her corruption. abby let out a strangled sigh, hips grinding against her fingers as they toyed with her clit.

she moved a hand to her hair, knuckles stretching against her scalp as she began to pull her braid. she grunted, yanking even harder. she whispered your name: pained, hopeless.

she sped up her assault against her pussy, feeling that pit in the bottom of her stomach begin to grow. “pleasepleaseplease” her voice cracked as she begged, unsure what she was pleading for.

she wanted to stop, but she needed to try and make this feeling go away. she knew it would come back, it always did - but even five minutes free from your torment on her mind might save her.

her fingers kept going, drawing desperate circles against her weeping pussy relentlessly. the void was growing, almost consuming her entirely at this point. she thought of you laughing at her current state: a crying mess, pussy wet with perversion.

it was sick, really - how the idea of you hating her for this made her need even worse. you’d probably think it appalling: someone who was supposed to be your friend, now sat here burning at the thought of you.

a part of her wished that you shared this sickness. that you too let yourself be overwhelmed by the thought of sin. maybe you didn’t let the guilt swallow you whole - she hoped so.

but there was no point lingering in the what-ifs, they were far too fleeting.

her deft fingers quickened their pace, the ache all consuming. the climb began - a desperate jump towards oblivion. closer, closer. the flames scorched her bedsheets as her breathing hastened.

fuck, she hissed before reaching the apex with a scream of your name. a scream? a whisper? a thought? it didn’t make her actions any less deplorable.

her conscience grabbed pleasure by the throat as she ripped her fingers away, putting out the blaze on her hips like a cigarette crushed on the ground.

the desire imploded within the walls of her torso; scratching against her insides in the vengeance of her denial.

it was wrong; she had to stop it. yet still, the guilt poured into her lungs with no chance of resolve. she was a fool for thinking it would fix her. maybe next time it would work. maybe next time the exorcism would finally purify her.

until next time.

[wavesoutbeingtossed]

The whole discourse about the privacy/secrecy/support thing has been sitting with me for a few days (I mean other than it always does to a certain degree) thanks to all the excellent discussion happening and I know I'm not saying anything that hasn't been said a million times before, but I think what we're seeing and what we're going to learn (e.g. from TTPD) is that it wasn't just the support issue, but how it was shown/handled.

We've all gone out of our way to show that introversion =/= lack of support. Someone can be shy, reserved, etc. and still show up for their partner, whether in public or at home. To chalk any of the differences up to the clash between introversion and extroversion is unfair to folks who count themselves among either tbh.

@thisisctrying said something the other day that hit the nail on the head about how if that support had been offered in private, there very well may not have been a Joever to begin with, or at least not at this point in time. (Sorry for loosely paraphrasing, and for namedropping you! Long time listener, first time poster.)

If this were a case where the "shy" partner said, "I am really uncomfortable with the spotlight personally and do not want to court it, but I will support you in your ambitions and offer you whatever you need to make them happen and make the glare bearable," I suspect that would have gone a long way to making Taylor feel seen and comfortable in pursuing her goals in the way that she now has. Again, that might have been more akin to the balance that seemed to have been struck around 2019 from what we can see, but even speaking in a general sense, there are lots of couples out there, celebrity or not, that have similar approaches where there are highly driven people and busy careers involved.

(A famous example being Dolly Parton's marriage. Tbh I know next to nothing about her and Carl, but she's always heralded as an example in this regard, because her husband is famously uncomfortable with the spotlight and hasn't accompanied her to public events in decades, but she's said that she never minded that because that was always work to her, and what was important was that he supported her in pursuing all her career goals and basically ensured she had a place to call home to return to at the end of the day.)

We're kind of in a brave new world with her current relationship because it felt like, at least at the start, we were maybe watching her figure out her boundaries in real time as to what she was comfortable with or not and adjust accordingly. Like so many have said, I fully believe the extreme privacy thing was initially driven by herself and her experiences in 2016, and she needed that quiet time to recover from all of the things and figure out how to exist in the world again.

Stating the obvious, it seemed like eventually privacy was equated with secrecy, turning the relationship and the celebrity into the elephant in the room and something to never be spoken of to the outside world. People are free to choose whatever works best for themselves and their relationships, and for some the separate public lives might work, but the “kept me like a secret but I kept you like an oath” theme is all over her work and it’s clear that it’s a sore spot for her, because she’s been made to feel shame just for the life she leads so many times in the past.

What I’m trying to say is that it’s pretty obvious something Not Great was happening behind the scenes, which didn’t just amount to “she wanted to be a public celebrity and he wanted to be a private hermit.” (Also, in case anyone forgot, this is a person who also chose a public-facing career who also has to engage in press for it, but I digress.) As her career reached new heights post-folklore, if she had the support at home to do all the things without judgment and with encouragement, and in turn offer the same support to her partner, she may have very well lived just fine with that, not unlike Dolly Parton’s case.

By reading between the lines in all the press since, as well as comments on tour and general ~vibes~ with TTPD teasers, it seems like one of the issues was that that was likely not the case. There was all the stuff that we saw — the reticence to acknowledge each other in the media (particularly on one side), the lack of public support even at events at which they were both in attendance for their respective jobs, the great lengths they went to not to be photographed together at events they attended yet no problem taking pictures with other friends and coworkers, the jobs that separated them, the withdrawing from the public even for work accomplishments, etc. Which could all be manageable if a couple chooses to do so together and are not inherently a sign of trouble in themselves.

But what we’re seeing now I think is a reflection of the things we weren’t seeing then, and it seems to indicate some very deep hurt. (I know, call me Captain Obvious.) And like so many have been saying, it feels likely that that part of that hurt is rooted in that very lack of private support where a person would expect it from their partner. Obviously as a Taylor fan blog I’m going to be more inclined to understand her side of a story, but tbh, it’s also because… this is sooooooo common, and something I’ve experienced in my friend group. (@taylortruther is right when she says most breakups are the same one way or another lol.)

One partner is resentful of the other’s success, or resentful that the other’s priorities begin to evolve as new experiences unlock new goals, or feels the other’s ambitions are not worthy of pursuit, and coupled with perhaps their own struggles in the same domain, it’s easy to see where that can chip away at the other partner’s morale and faith in the relationship. I know I’m just speculating here, but I also don’t think it’s totally unfounded. (Again, because a) I’m picking up what she’s putting down and b) it happens to sooooooo many women even among us dull normals.)

With all the pointed mentions about how much Taylor feels supported in her current relationship and how she in turn loves to offer the same show of support to not only her partner but other loved ones, how she’s stepped out more in the last year to a whole host of events, how she’s mentioned feeling like she locked herself away for years and she’s just proud of her partner and happy she can show up for him even if the chaos around it is unsettling, it paints a picture of what perhaps was happening before last year.

To feel like you’re all alone in carrying the weight of the relationship (or burden of it), of twisting yourself into knots to accommodate the other person’s boundaries (or insecurities) but not feeling reciprocity for your own has to be so painful. (The idea that it may have been even darker and to have a partner not only be unreceptive to your own needs but even perhaps resentful/dismissive/belittling of them is even more painful to think of. I guess we’ll find out when TTPD comes out if that was the case, too.)

At a certain point, that lack of acknowledgement will force your hand to be able to reclaim yourself. And it feels like the further removed Taylor in particular is from it, the more she moves from being sad about the life she felt she gave up by leaving, to angry at the life she felt she was giving up by staying. Especially being in a relationship now where it seems like everything comes much easier, where she can be open about the person she’s with and show up for them, all the stuff that seemed as challenging as climbing Mount Everest in her past is nothing more than a molehill at best in her current life.

TL;DR: I don’t think it’s privacy that inherently spells doom for a celebrity relationship like this; it’s the mutual support and respect that does. If Taylor had felt that in the later years of her previous relationship, I think we could be seeing a different, though not necessarily unfulfilled, person right now in 2024, who’d be happy on tour but whose personal life would look a little different. But it seems like by losing that support she lost parts of herself, and we’ve seen her reclaim that in spades in the last year, and perhaps to degrees she didn’t even realize she could from before all the Bad Stuff started happening in her young adulthood.

I know this was extremely long-winded and unnecessary, especially about total strangers we only know through scraps fed through the media, but I just always bristle at this idea that issues like these boil down to “personality differences,” as though one person wants to live in a city and the other on a remote island, or some shit like that. The whole support (and gender tbh) issue is one that’s just very close to my heart because again, I have seen it play out with so many of my friends in long term relationships and marriages and I just think people in relationships (and women in particular in some circles) deserve better than to feel like they’re being, well, tolerated.

[foxes-that-run]

A TTPD theory

Take this as fiction, or view it as a thought experiment in how what we see can be taken in a number of ways. We are not privy to anything in Taylors life but her lyrics, social media posts and paparazzi photos, and for many years Taylor has been a continuous participant in pap photos as promotion, and keenly engaged and aware of how her fanbase reads things. I think most fans think what she wants them too, which isn't always her actual experience. She has told us this in songs like Dear Reader, Mirrorball and a lot of TTPD. Taylor has also acted out or given quotes to seed songs, in the lead up to or after their release before too.

In this post I talked about how the TTPD prologue has three muses and I'll highlight this line after the 'cosmic' muse I think is Harry:

So, here's my fan fiction/thought experiment. To me I think what started as wishing to be in a different relationship, became friendly flirting. Where I think it went wrong was in wanting different things at the time, as Taylor said in the prologue, 'some stars ever align', I still hope they do one day.

We start our story at the 2021 Grammy's (March 2021)

2021 timeline

Harry and Taylor were seen together for the first time in 6 years at the 2021 Grammy's, where both were seen looking at the other and they spoke. Their body language in the video of them talking is interesting. Taylor is leaning forward, gesturing a lot, she looks confident but also tense. Harry is the one to start it, but he looks away when she says something and it looks like he ends the conversation with pleasantries. She goes home and writes High Infidelity about resenting a partner and having an affair, outing April 29 in the process. He writes As it Was and Love of My Life about accepting something special is gone forever.

TTPD guesses for this time:

I look through people's windows - I think this song refers to the 2021 Grammy's, it refers to the muse catching their breath, tilting their head. They are someone close now distant. Sliding doors and what if's. It sounds like that conversation.

Guilty as Sin? - This song is seems early in Taylors thinking about leaving Joe, she is feeling guilty about wishing she was with someone else. High Infidelity we know was written then is oddly similar, but GAS is a current thought process with Haylor links.

Peter - I think it fits for vibes of 'life was easier on you'

May - August - Brit Awards (May 2021)

They saw each other again at the Brits in May when I think Glitch was written, Joe was in Belfast filming then.

On July 24 2021, for the anniversary of Folklore Taylor posted a photo of herself with two (double album) coffee cups (Karma MV) and text which could fit into an Eras tour Betty Speech, highlighting 'victorian ghost' and The Lakes (poets)

On 18 June 2021 Taylor announces Red TV and says “tortured by memories past”

TTPD guesses for this time:

Tortured Poets Department (because she refers to it in September and in the Red TV Announcement.

My Boy Only Breaks His Favourite Toys - the Red TV announcement refers to Wild that is on TTPD 11 times and Red 4 times, most in that song. Taylor also used the sandcastles in 1989 Spotify Visuals

August - October 2021

This is where I wonder if a friendship was becoming flirtatious. Or with the rerecording of Red and being unhappy with Joe if perhaps Taylor was thinking more about a road not taken. Taylor had a version of the title track written and decided it was a title track and an emerging aesthetic to easter egg by September 2021. Harry was very overt too, on their anniversary he performed in white satin in Nashville wearing the Peace Ring. I think it was a flirtation then.

recorded Red (Taylors Version) in Belfast visiting Joe so was in the Haylor feels

posted this TikTok of a Glitch while recording Red TV and a request for Wildest Dreams TV

went on Fallon to promote ATW where she easter egged Typewriters, and said would try to drop easter eggs 3 years advance.

At the Tribeca Film Festival she again mentioned Typewriters, an album with an acronym, tortured poets and manuscript. She would try to drop easter eggs 3 years in advance.

Released the ATW short film with typewriters super clear and and included them in the merch too.

Harry has the first heart kiss since 2018 in St Paul! Then wears all white satin and wears and plays with his Peace Ring (for the first time in years) to perform in Nashville while Taylor in town, a few days after their anniversary, and adds To Be So Lonely to the setlist. Then he records Satellite.

TTPD guesses for this time:

Manuscript because of Red TV records (and referred to at Tribeca)

November and December 2021

This is when the majority of Midnights was written. Taylor was also not seen much after the ATW release, Joe was in Panama. You're Losing Me was recorded, if TTPD songs are from here that's hard to tell. Harry was MIA for 2 weeks before Taylors birthday and in this period Taylor wore a Gucci Lion Ring to Zoe's birthday, interesting with the amount of ring talk on TTPD. Question…? Written.

2022

2022 timeline

Matty Healy first worked with Jack sometime after 5 January.

21 January - Charlie Puth includes painting a red fence in his MV he later refers to when promoting TTPD. - So the left typewriter/Charlie Puth of it all is way too early for MH.

April 2022, Harry said “to BFs everywhere F U” which I think was directed at Joe. So he knew whatever Joe did. Drake also shouted out supportively Taylor on 19 April. Joe's costar's name in the final cut of CWF (Ep 3, 11:55).

Harry's House released on Harry and Taylors 20 May anniversary. As it was MV beforehand.

I still think it was Joever (or they were on a break) May 2022

In November I posted that I thought Midnight was the break up album. Suggesting that I think Joe and Taylor broke up by May 2022. I had thought that Joe may have agreed to a number of appearances to provide them both time to process and ready themselves for Taylors fans finding out.

I still think this, though perhaps it also could have been a break. The speed with which Taylor moved on could have that the break up was raw for us, not her.

I primarily thought this because Joe was at a random Hollywood party rather than her NYU Graduation, and she stopped liking his IG posts then, which she had done reliably.

This is to say, I think Taylor held back in Midnights and at least some of it was written before the 2 years she said at the Grammy's.

August - October 2022

By August friendly flirtation had been going on for a year, Harry dressed for eras as the rerecords were announced. They were in communication so much he knew when she was announcing things before she did. On the night of the VMAs he was dressed in blue stars to match her Midnights after party dress while Joe dragged her out to a car. I wonder if Fortnight was set after they were both at TIFF then New York for 2 weeks during Harry's residency, Harry seemed to be really struggling after that. My guess is that with the impending bad press of the Nanny/OWs relationship - any part in it being Joever would have been out of the question.

August 2022 - Harry and OW are in a Rolling Stone interview, they interviewed them in April and it came much later, but I think this is referred to in loml and something Taylor would have especially not liked given her desire for a power couple

The OW/Shia drama came to light and that relationship looked done by 5 September at the DWD premiere.

7 September - 30 October Harry wore the Peace Ring again at HSLOT shows. They were both at the Tiff Film Festival, (where Taylor mentioned typewriters again).

They were then both in New York during his residency ending 21 September, where he also played Ever Since New York for the first time in 4 years. This is my guess for when Fortnight is set.

There were blinds Joe was texting other people.

The TTPD Spotify room included a safe (vault) from Toronto 👀

In October 6 - 10 Harry postponed 2 shows due to Illness, with Sony saying Harry was not unwell. Now, other Sony artists postponed shows and this Reddit thread suggests it is over the Nanny scandal (but I don't think Harry would be so cut up about that story to cancel shows and call his mum) so there could be lots of reasons for this. But it is a real anomaly.... and Anne and Gemma flew from England to support him when he performed again.

12 October - Charlie Puth easter eggs TTPD on Fallon.

Midnights was released and Joe carried a coffee table book to avoid touching Taylor in the pap walk

Eras Tour training started September 2022 - in the Time interview Taylor said she stopped drinking and ran on the treadmill for 6 months before tour began. The Typewriters were also in the Eras set for The Man.

"This time, she began training six months ahead of the first show. “Every day I would run on the treadmill, singing the entire set list out loud,”" and "“Learning choreography is not my strong suit.” With the exception of Grammy night—which was “hilarious,” she says—she also stopped drinking. “Doing that show with a hangover,” she says ominously. “I don’t want to know that world.”

TTPD guesses for this time:

Fortnight - I think the references to a cheating husband (current tense) and wife, (the Clean lyric similarity of watering flowers) places this here. I think the August 2022 Rolling Stone with OW is part inspiration for that line. Also functioning alcoholic/time magazine quote, here or soon after.

loml - this song would have come after Harry's House. I think the Valiant Roar is a reference to the August 2022 Rolling Stone Interview with OW and Harry, I also wonder about June 2022.

Down Bad - This fits narratively if the Fortnight was September and it ended in October that puts Taylor 'down bad crying at the gym' while preparing for the Eras tour. The staring at the sky / CBBH reference also make sense to be after Taylor heard Satellite and re-recorded Red TV.

BDILH - Based on my theory on it ending due to scandals I think this fits here, at least in a starting form.

November - December 2022

This period is unknown to me, OW and Harry BUA, Harry bought a Ferrari he never drove. He was last seen driving in December 2022. Joe said Tortured Man's Club in an interview. Taylor and Joe go to New Orleans, seemingly argue and she visits a recording studio. So if not completely over this looks like a final blow.

TTPD guesses for this time:

Fresh Out of the Slammer, Florida!!!, Who's Afraid of Little Old Me, were recorded at the Esplanade Studios in NOLA

January - March 2023

Taylor performed at The 1975 concert, Harry rumoured there. Matty Healy accused Harry of Queer Baiting and Blinds that he hated Harry. Harry started being driven places.

Taylor went over to Harry at the Grammy's and was enthusiastic supporting him. I feel like things between Harry and Taylor were friendly, but I think that was it, she was initiating. He recorded the Satellite music video but then kept it in his pocket until May, maybe something started earlier, when things were different and finished then later. Joe was seen at the Grammy's with Jack and posted a photo of meredith. Harry tours Australia, slides into Influencer Yan Yan's DM's. He adds Woman to the setlist and kisses his heart. ER kiss. At the end of the month MHs ex says they were going fine.

TTPD guesses for this time:

imgonnagetyouback - because of him fixing his hair at the Grammy's

April & May 2023

Joever announced. I have a long post on the Maylor thing. My perspective is that Harry wasn't up for more than friends at that time, Matty is known for deep resentment of Harry. Matty & Taylor were both on tour, they weren't in the same city apart from the handful of times they were seen, and they were overseas from each other when it started and ended... and Matty implied it was not sincere. Taylors team also said it was not serious. Fans see it differently and that's OK. But to me it was trolling of the highest order from them both.

On 9 April Harry played golf at Augusta Georgia and disappeared for 2 weeks. In April 12 Taylor wore the Gucci Lion ring, she went to Florida, MH in Australia, HS MIA last seen in Georgia. Most of the MH public stuff was after that. Harry also added Stockholm Syndrome and Grapejuice to his setlist and seen outside Cartier before Taylor starts wearing the Necklace after their old anniversary. It's a mess. The MH thing ended.

TTPD guesses for this time:

Songs recorded, but like Fresh out the slammer they are likely started earlier. I think the daily pap works with nicely matching photos is to have everything happen in this 'neater' timeline.

Alchemy - Taylor said this title in the Cruel Summer speech in March, Taylor may have added to it later.

June

June is when I think things went really bad. I think this is where Taylor 'tore it all down with one conversation', which based on the Time magazine may have been wanting something public. Angry I don't wanna live forever Surprise Song and wild Betty Speeches:

"James, and he really, really, really messes things up bad with the love of his life, and he has to try to get her back, and apologize very sincerely, and profusely, and say he’s going to change and be better, and that’s all he has to do."

Taylor crying in a car in pap photos. Deux Moi reports Taylor attended HSLOT at Wembley. TR attends one Wembley show, we don't know which. Harry played Sweet Creature, maybe for Gemma's baby. The same night Taylor played Seven and said:

"I’ve always just had something happen to me, or feel a feeling, for even like seven seconds, if I feel a feeling, it’ll be like, ‘Oh! I have to write a song about this seven seconds of me feeling this way.’ It’s like, it’s genuinely been like, it’s not really a job, it’s like a full coping mechanism" ... (TTPD hint) ... "radical, the idea of a man apologizing in a beautiful, heartfelt, sincere way.’ I’m not talking about any of you. If you’re here, you’re exempt. You’re a really emotionally intelligent group. I’m sort of talking about other people right now.

TTPD guesses for this time:

Black dog, down bad, FOTS recorded, but not necessarily written.

loml - I think it fits here because Harry put Stockholm Syndrome with "I'll never leave" on the setlist in the place of Love of My Life.

Prophecy

BDILH

The rest is in the 2023 timeline

[merp-blerp]

A Gaylor Interpretation of "Seven" post TTPD

Overblown Analysis Under the Cut ↓

So my song interpretations are often just one of my takes on a single song. For "Seven", I think every reading I've seen works basically. The general interpretation of the story of two kids being friends and the gaylor interpretation of those kids being in love whether they realize it or not make sense to me and I love that story. However, I love challenging myself to see songs in multiple ways, even in ways I haven't seen anyone else see them. And I want to share this different take on "Seven" being about "Peter" (at least I think it's different, I don't think I've seen exactly what I'm about to say before, but idk).

"Please picture me // In the trees // I hit my peak at seven feet // In the swing // Over the creek // I was too scared to jump in // But I, I was high in the sky // With Pennsylvania under me // Are there still beautiful things?"

Most takes on this song seem to take this song as not being personal for Taylor, but as a story she created, but I want to play with the idea of it being at least a bit personal, even if it's a fictional take on reality.

The first clue that it could be about Taylor more directly is that she mentions Pennsylvania, where she was born.

I find it interesting that we don't know how old the narrator is in the story they tell. "Seven" refers to how high the narrator swings, not their age. In "Fresh Out the Slammer", Taylor mentions how she used to sit on children's swings with her lover wearing imaginary rings, their age during that time on the swing also not being determined. "Robin" also mentions swings. To me, Taylor seems to see the swings as the peak of childhood/childlike innocence. The swing story is told in the past tense, so the narrator's childlike innocence must be behind them as they're beginning to wonder "Are there still beautiful things?" like there were in their swing days. To me, this song has always felt like an adult recounting childhood memories as if they were young again, and in this reading, I think Adult Taylor is talking to her younger self, Peter.

"Sweet tea in the summer // Cross your heart, won't tell no other // And though I can't recall your face // I still got love for you"

The mention of drinking something in the summer and keeping a secret reminds me of Taylor's unreleased song "Me and Britney" from 2003, a song that could also be read as Taylor having a childhood crush on a friend thanks to the lines, "That boy she ran off with, well, I thought he was crazy // Maybe I was just jealous that he'd come between me and Britney." But the line that concerns us here is "Me and Britney used to sit on the front porch drinking lemonade // Talking 'bout things no one else was ever supposed to hear // In the summer shade." There are also parallels to another unreleased song "Mary Jo", which mentions "So many questions answered // When I spent that summer with Jo". And of course, there are ties to another unreleased song called "Sweet Tea and God's Graces", a similar song to "Mary Jo" about learning through young love, which also mentions sweet tea, tire swings, and summer. I could never know if Taylor actually had feelings for her friend Britany Maack, who "Me and Britany" is allegedly (?) about, or the nature of their relationship. But it appears that Taylor is taking elements from her childhood and incorporating them into this queer-coded song.

Summer, daylight, and the sun seem to represent the freedom of knowing your queer and the ability to be so for Taylor, reflected in so many songs like "Daylight", "BDILH", etc. So maybe it's being used almost like a code to say that she's had a queer experience of some kind.

Especially in the 90s and early 2000s, if a kid found out they were queer they wouldn't tell anyone out of fear of homophobia and/or wanting to process it themselves. So older Taylor recounts that her younger self would "Cross (her) heart, won't tell no other" after summer/a queer experience.

As you get older and grow into your face, you somewhat begin to forget what you looked like as a kid. I know I look at old photos of myself and realize I forgot details. Taylor can't recall her own face as a child from memory, as it's been a long time since she's been a child, but she still has love for her younger self.

"Your braids like a pattern // Love you to the moon and to Saturn // Passed down like folk songs // The love lasts so long"

I did an analysis for "BDILH", and in that I mentioned that braids could symbolize taking your free, loose hair, or queerness, and tucking it back in a braid, hiding the queerness. Her younger self was closeted, so she has "braids like a pattern".

"Love you to the moon and to Saturn" is a play on the phrase "Love you to the moon and back" which is used to illustrate just how much you love someone. So why to the moon and to Saturn specifically? Maybe Taylor is saying that she has so much care for her younger self that it goes to the moon and Saturn combined. Or maybe, since Taylor illustrates not feeling like she belongs on earth like a human in several other songs like "Down bad" and "IHIH", she's saying that she loves her younger self to the moon and Saturn because she's not on earth. She's different, so she lives on Saturn, a planet that humans can't theoretically live on like Mars. I feel like there could be more to find with this Saturn lyric, so if you have any suggestions, I'd love to hear them!

Folk songs can be passed down for decades or maybe more, sometimes the origins of them being unknown (i.e. "The House of the Rising Sun" which has no known author and has been performed by countless people, essentially belonging to everyone and no one). Very similar to folktales, fables, and folklore. Queer history continues to be spread for centuries, even when the origins are murky. Queer people have existed since time itself, so "the love lasts so long".

"And I've been meaning to tell you // I think your house is haunted // Your dad is always mad and that must be why"

Okay, so I don't want to asses this line for too long when connecting it to Taylor on a personal level if the dad is her actual father, as it feels a bit uncomfortable for me personally, but I do want to address the line. Taylor has written about fathers in non-positive lights before. Take "You say we'll never make my parents' mistakes" and "You made a rebel of a careless man's careful daughter" from "Mine", or "Leaving like a father" from "Betty". The unreleased 2002 song "Can I Go With You?" is a song about a father angrily leaving his home after a spat with his partner and his child asking to go with him. There was also the argument Taylor got into with her dad in Miss Americana and the email leak from December of last year. I personally take "Tolerate It" as potentially being about Taylor's father only tolerating her identity and how that frustrates Taylor, so this lyric could also be in reference to any frustration that Scott Swift could have towards something about young Taylor. But I of course don't know Taylor's personal situation with her parents and I'm not personally accusing Scott of being abusive when I have such little information.

Honestly, the "dad" could also be Scott B, which might connect the song to Taylor's early career. I think I prefer that idea because I'm able to think about it more.

The way this line is worded feels like A) a child who knows something is amiss, but interprets the source of the problem as something unlikely like a ghost or B) an adult explaining something painful to a child in a way that wouldn't hurt the child as bad as the hard facts. I'm going to go with B for this reading. Adult Taylor says to her younger self that her house is "haunted" to soften the blow of whatever the problem is and help her understand. Younger Taylor might understand the dangers of a haunted house better than whatever the complicated truth is. Or maybe younger Taylor does understand the reality and older Taylor says "haunted" like a code word the two of them can understand, but not quite the listener. Mentioning "haunted" reminds me of Speak Now and its song by that name, which would connect it back to "Mine" again. And if the dad is actually Scott B, that reminds me of the story about Taylor having to call TS3 Speak Now because calling it "Enchanted" like she wanted was seen as too childish by Big Machine, connecting to childhood and never growing up again. Come to think of it, even the braids remind me of Speak Now and the "Mean" MV. (So now I'm wondering if the "careless man" was Scott B all along—that'd be something to ponder...)

"And I think you should come live with // Me and we can be pirates // Then you won't have to cry // Or hide in the closet // And just like a folk song // Our love will be passed on"

Taylor compares her younger self to Peter Pan in her song "Peter". Pirates play a big role in Peter Pan, of course. This also gives the song another connection to Taylor personally, as Taylor describes her younger self as in the age of "pirate ships" in "The Best Day". In "Peter", Taylor laments that her younger self was supposed to "grow up" and then "come find (her)", meaning her younger closeted self was supposed to finally grow out of the closet that hurts her so and be whole with her adult self. But, as stated in "The Archer" and "BDILH", Taylor never grew up, even when she wanted to, because of unforeseen circumstances like the master heist keeping her trapped. Here, Taylor asks a similar question, imploring her younger self to live with her so they can play and be whole. Pirates in real life could have gay partnerships with each other called "matelotage", so playing pirates might be like coming out. Then her younger self won't have to cry over who she is anymore. She won't have to hide in the closet. Then their unique love can continue to be passed on through history and to others.

"Please picture me // In the weeds // Before I learned civility // I used to scream ferociously // Any time I wanted // I, I"

I already talked about this line somewhat extensively in my "BDILH" analysis, so I'll keep an exact assessment of this specific line brief, but throughout this whole song, Taylor pleads to the listener to picture her younger, rather than her now, as she's been describing her younger self this whole time. As she says in the speech during "Daylight", Taylor wants to be defined by the things that she loves, not the things she's afraid of. The Lover coming out attempt reflected that, as there was barely any vitriol towards the industry portrayed in the album, compared to TTPD. If she came out then it would've been defined by her love, not the industry's abuse. Now she has a lot of anger and fear in her life, so she wants to be pictured before the closeting took its toll. Younger Taylor got to "scream ferociously" whenever she wanted, or be queer and "loud", but then she decided to take on her dreams of being a singer, a public figure, so she had to write her songs straight enough to pass as such and take on bearding, or learn "civility". And if playing pirates is like being out, it might require you to "scream ferociously".

The "I, I" being followed by nothing specific to it, but "Cross my heart, won't tell no other", makes me feel like something's being omitted. It's as if she wants to say more about being loud when she was younger, but then stops herself.

"Sweet tea in the summer // Cross my heart, won't tell no other // And though I can't recall your face // I still got love for you // Pack your dolls and a sweater // We'll move to India forever // Passed down like folk songs // Our love lasts so long"

Earlier in the song, Taylor described her younger self as not telling anyone about her queerness, but now she's crossing her own heart the same way. She never grew up. She's been left with no choice but to stay in the closet forever. But Taylor still sings of the summer, so her queerness isn't gone.

She tells her younger self to join her again, to pack and move to India with her. My best guess as to why India specifically is that India is far away. It was never mentioned in her music before and never again so far. It's not like New York, London, or even Pennsylvania, places where people would expect to find her thanks to her music and track record of frequenting those places. India is similar to Florida in her music, a place to escape from invasive eyes and troubles. It's like a more achievable version of the "better planet" from "IHIH".

And their love still lasts so long.

Thanks for reading!

[didnt-hear-cold-as-you-live]

Ooh what would you replace as her singles then?

Red - I think the singles were the accurate choices in that they generated the proper amount of commercial success, but I think Begin Again shouldn't have been a promo single (as someone who loved Taylor and was stoked for Red but wasn't in the fandom I literally didn't even know it ever was a single til I joined in 2018); instead either All Too Well should've been a proper 3rd single or Holy Ground; both showcase way better songwriting and tie in the rest of the album so it doesn't feel like whiplash when you hear it.

Reputation - LWYMMD perfect god tier best ever lead single choice, but RFI sounded way too similar to release next after the GP's reaction to LWYMMD was more like, 'girl what???'. I understand that the armor / bait & switch was what she wanted, but for like, Overall Reception, I don't think that worked. Dress or DWOHT should've followed to showcase songwriting ability and reel people back in to why they fell in love with her. Or, if it HAD to be a song from the first half, it should've been Delicate for the same reason. I also think Delicate would've performed better if it was released sooner so people were still invested; rep being old news when it came out didn't do any favors to GP success. RFI would've been fine next, and then -of course! - Getaway Car.

Lover - ME! As the lead was fine for the reasons she picked it (stark as possible contrast to rep), but something FAR better than YNTCD should've followed - aka Cruel Summer. would've been the absolute song of the summer. Reputation fully restored. YNTCD caused a huge backslide with the GP who then reallyyyyyy questioned her songwriting ability. YNTCD still could've been a promo single for Pride (replacing The Archer / maybe released in a 2-song EP alongside Cruel Summer). Lover then wouldn't have been lackluster to release next, and wouldn't have needed to fill a "I think her songwriting sucks now" poison / lack of care about the album that the GP was filled with, which Lover is not good enough by itself to have fixed (despite being good generally). Then something like Paper Rings should've been the 4th / tour single in a non-pandemic world

Midnights - Anti-Hero and LH were great first 2 choices, but Karma as a remix felt... awkward, considering.

TTPD - in a world where we get pre-album singles from her, MBOBHFT should've been a surprise release one day before the album came out. Good taste without giving too much away, and not as horribly bland as Fortnight. Hearing that before the album (or if it were the first track to the album) would've colored the experience a LOT differently. ICDIWABH should've been released as a single sooner after once Fortnight didn't catch, and it should have a music video that plays on the ideas in the tour performance. Smallest Man would then be a great final / 3rd single

[taylortruther]

Okay now I’m thinking about longevity in the fandom and ttpd which is SO interesting because she’s putting out so so much material and people’s shortening attention spans and all… the staying power definitely feels different, versus people who were here pre-Lover, waiting 2ish years between albums meant you listened to the albums a LOT. You’d easily remember all the words to Sparks Fly even by the time 1989 was out, because you had 2+ years of Speak Now being the recent Taylor album and only Red in between. (Of course I still remember all her lyrics but I’m insane. Ttpd is a slightly different story though, there’s So Much.)

Anyway, idk if that point before made sense, but I could see a few songs having longevity. I agree about The Manuscript because it’s so rich and ties together some very big people and motifs and experiences. I could see Guilty as Sin? because spice and it’s got an addictive quality not unlike Dress (but the opposite as I’m pretty sure you’ve said… but similar!). Possibly also So Long London (sad bop/bookend the Joever, track 5, beautiful intro), Who’s Afraid of Little Old Me? (her fame songs tend to stick around, even the more “obscure” ones like The Lucky One, because there aren’t many and her views on it continue to evolve; same applies to Clara Bow, but I doubt it will be as popular just due to the sound tbh, like cardigan vs peace, traditional song structure and sounds tends to win in the fandom). The others are a toss-up and this is getting long so I’ll stop but yeah felt the need to share ajdjsjd

yeah and those albums had multiple singles, music videos, tons of radio play and promo... looots of time to let them sink in. and after 13+ years of releasing music, she knows some of it will get lost in the shuffle (like deep cuts, or simply older tracks - 'if you know this one, sing it, because it's old' re: crazier recently.)

i think ttpd has some bops - guilty as sin?, maybe down bad, icdiwabh. and i agree who's afraid will have some longevity because of its message (same with i can do it.) but there's like, this category of Meaningful Taylor Songs that say something about her life or relationship with her career, like long live, yoyok, wcs... i wonder which ones will fall in that category? maybe the prophecy (in addition to icdiwabh and waolom)?

[likeadevils]

i’m a bit late to this, but i just saw your post making a bit of a timeline speculating on writing dates for ttpd songs, and i wanted to make an interesting note about the manuscript! during her press run for the atw10 short film in late 2022, she made multiple verbal reference in talks to the mentality of yearning of being the same age/having the same experiences as your partner, even verbatim referencing “coffee in french presses.” now, it’s still possible she actually wrote the manuscript later, and just had that lyric/concept in her head in 2022 (a la “meet me behind the mall” for august), or perhaps it was something she was thinking about given how she may have been working on speak now tv, which also has its own coffee lyrics (“this is something we’ll laugh about over coffee every morning…”) but either way, i just thought it was interesting to note! the manuscript possibly being one of the earliest ttpd songs written yet ultimately being it’s central thematic closer is so fascinating to me.

yeah it’s very possible! it’s also fairly closely aligned to midnights thesis? so i could see taylor writing it with aaron in spring 2022 and deciding to hang onto it for the next project. but owning a coffee machine definitely seems like a Marker Of Adulthood for her (especially because we have paparazzi photos of her and jake going out for coffee for a week straight. like i think “at the age of him she […] made coffee every morning in a french press” is supposed to be a little dig at his maturity levels).

i could also see it being written around speak now tv coming out? a) because she would’ve been singing atw10 three nights a week every week for about two months at that point, b) because “the story isn’t mine anymore” is fairly similar to her speech before playing dear john for the first time, where she was like “I AM OVER THIS. DO NOT HARASS JOHN MAYER ON MY BEHALF”, and c) because a lot of her speeches around that time mentioned how healing it is to write down emotions she thought she was alone in and hear us sing it back at her, which feels related to “and at last she knew what the agony had been for.” i also imagine a song about a breakup that she never thought she’d get over, and is now over, would be healing to write in the middle of two of the worst breakups of her life

i could also see her writing it literally whenever like. all too well is a big deal in her career and the events that inspired it were incredibly formative for her i imagine she gets reminded of it quite a lot

[tayloralisonswift]

i'm so glad that that was your reaction to the clip. whew. thank you. your faberry fic-reading backstory is incredible. there was important scientific research to be done!

okay, so. i think ttpd is mostly quite bad. however. i have a friend who likes it a lot so i have listened to it a couple of times and it has grown on me a bit from repeated exposure. that being said, i cannot be bothered to do anything other than the most surface-level analysis when it comes to reading the songs as gay, which seems to be similar to your approach. high five!

my boy only breaks his favorite toys - is that one gay because he was her best friend and she felt more when they played pretend than with all the kens? see, it's so annoying with this album because there are male pronouns everywhere. sure, i can ignore them but it's annoying that i have to do so. down bad - yep, gay alien song, love that. i have no idea what or where the imaginary rings are. sorry to this song. yes, florida!!! has beautiful dolls and also florence welch and they looked extremely gay performing that one live. when i first saw 'bdilh is gay' in your message, i was like, 'what on earth is bdilh', so that probably gives an indication of how much i think about song. i get how some might argue that this one is gay but the matty healyness of it all is just exhausting. imgonnagetyouback might lowkey be the gayest song on this album? she sings to someone she describes as bubbly and pulls them into a closet? does anyone describe men as bubbly? i very much enjoyed your reading of i look in people's windows the other day, though!

anyway, this has all made me even more grateful for lover. it was so easy with her. i could say something gay about 17 out of 18 songs. those were the days.

yeah so i call my boy only breaks gay for a few reasons. 1. i like it so i want it to be <3. 2. best friend mention always drives me insane 3. the thing about the kens mirrors hits different - i've never cared about how men hurt me but YOU are different! to me that's very queer.

google says "wearing imaginary rings" is from fresh out the slammer, a song that my beloved meredith loves so i try not to insult, but having to google it will tell you how invested i am.

florida!!!'s performance was sooooo gay for a moment i had an out-of-body experience where i saw myself not as myself but as someone who loves ttpd. for that performance alone i was like maybe i can be that person. what would it be like to be them. and then i came back to earth.

completely agree on bdilh. it's about matty, unfortunately. it just is, and we all have to live in a post-but daddy i love him world. it's a cruel world, but we must face it nonetheless.

i only listened to imgonnagetyouback fairly recently (i didn't like the coincidental copying of get him back!) and when i heard the closet line i screeched. i agree, that's the most explicitly queer thing about the album. peter, too, references closets in a way that makes me wanna be sick. (paused answering this to write my insane peter take that i've just posted.)

it was SOOOOOOOO easy with lover, oh my god. reputation too. she was handing it to us on a platter.

[nightguide]

Taylor Swift's algorithm in new light.

The Tortured Poets Department is about her giving in for the first time.

the conspiracy Swift has upon the naked eye was that she wasn't deemed credible enough spiritually. Her impact on society was only deemed by namesake but only goes as far as Swift's discography putting shame over her exes one after the other making foreplays around her fanbase distinguishing her life as a suitable role model of access when popularity became through and true with no self help recycling the best of the best, no spiritual truth but source of energy harvesting (demonic practices, scroll for Jeff Buckley post below to explain more in depth). Taylor Swift had gone deep enough to find a soul who had been bearing more weight to find the world seemingly difficult to travel unless she was easily accessed via heartbreak (to a man) but to a woman, Swift noticed a higher access energy that led to the gateway of the 80's which was defined in her album as her darkest source of inspiration foretelling of a woman who had every part of her own life to become something greater than life but then was never ever able to have handled it far due to Swift's parallel which was laid in the 1950's towards her liking due to the socio-normative conditioning of the world become the 2020's now. Swift fell in love with a woman who is as similar to the woman portrayed in the 80's which Swift models her throughout her TTPD discography as a heartbreaker and channels her life to what could have been due to her experience of the world giving back to what she gave as a nihilistic energy heart load due to the heartbreaker (woman in the 20's) hatred against. Swift embodies that energy become her due to her own disappearance in the media that did not define her outlasting success on how she made sense to prevent her prior mistakes into contributing her life towards her heart which is why the 20's heartbreaker reciprocated her feelings into channelling the album as a gift from her as her own to reinvent Swift into a heartbreaker and actually condemns the meaning to her followers account.

THE TORTURED POETS DEPARTMENT

THE REQUIEM

Stop and leave

In bruges

My brother, the pharmacist

Independent given love

Bridges

In the end

4 walls

All American psycho

Freedom 99

Hated you now

I can fck a Saturnian

Staring contest

Tired of you (The Tower)

Giving to me

Great day

Be me

Radioactive

note: if you seen my Twitter, no 14 is named after my little brother.

[wavesoutbeingtossed]

I don’t think JA is evil or anything but it is odd to me that even ignoring the cheating lines in the peripheral of the album, everyone’s reaction to “he didn’t want to marry her and kept her in quiet stasis for years” is “ oh he’s not bad”.

Not even from a talking about celebrities perspective. The numerous references to wanting children and lost youth on the album just hits so badly in your 30s. And it’s odd to me that wasting someone’s time to that extent while resenting their success is looked at as being a good guy. It just seems like trivializing an issue women have

Anon, I don’t mean this directed at you specifically, just a blanket reminder for myself that I don’t really care to discuss these men generally because I don’t think they’re worth the time or space and frankly, I don’t know enough about them or care to to devote space to them on my little fan blog.

That being said, I think the reason my take on it is more… subdued is because, well, unfortunately I think the situation inferred from Taylor’s music is so, so common. I have several friends (two in particular I can think of) who went through situations so eerily similar to the one Taylor and Joe presumably went through. Which is not so much to say that I’m being parasocial, but more that all breakups are the same to quote @taylortruther. It’s not to condone the men’s behaviour, but more to say that even amongst “dull normals,” most of us have firsthand or at least secondhand experience in it and have had to navigate the same conflicts.

I have no opinion on whether Joe is good or bad because I don’t know anything about him beyond Taylor’s music and I have zero interest to learn anything further. I have my own guesses as to what went down, which are probably similar to what most people around here are assuming, and it’s again so painfully pedestrian, especially for people in their 30s. Which is obviously so painful as a woman of childbearing age who is hoping to have those things.

I do agree that there is a lot of trivializing of these issues for women in general, and especially for Taylor in general in TTPD. Not to be all “I/we understand Taylor better” about it all, but there’s soooooooo much in TTPD that I think *a lot* of people are not picking up, which is why i say over and over again that it really is the thirtysomething album. (Which is not to be ageist lol, it’s more a state of mind.) Like, while I am not someone who foresees having children or even getting married myself, most of my close friends are and have, and so much of what Taylor sings about literally and subtextually is so painfully obvious to me and palpable that I’ve been shocked at how it’s been glossed over. (Maybe you don’t fully understand it until you’re sitting on your friend’s bathroom floor consoling her as her entire life crumbles before her eyes? Or is that just me?) But, many of us here on tumblr dot com have picked up what she’s put down.

I think it comes down to: even with “good” guys (and particularly with those who aren’t), the whole family thing does *not* mean the same thing to them, because the time constraints just don’t apply to them. You’d hope your partner would feel why it was pressing to you, but unfortunately I can think of a lot of people even in my own life who’ve experienced this same conflict with their partners. Because men can drag their feet until they think it’s the “right” time in a way women simply can’t. I had a friend who had a very Joever-like breakup over that very issue and it’s so, so painful and can also drive them to make questionable choices in the immediate aftermath.

Then when you add the whole resentment/whatever issue on top of it… it’s… a lot.

[wavesoutbeingtossed]

Okay, I think I have how Down Bad is blended muses and not just MH:

The track placement is the first clue. It is clearly about the aftermath of a breakup and the way it feels. Walking around disoriented and like you've been experimented on. It is giving a lot of the part of How Did It End? where she talks about walking around at the shops looking lost. Down Bad, like How Did It End? perfectly describes the feeling, just in a different way.

There's also the whole being naked and alone. That ties back to The Black Dog being left shivering in the shower. In SLL she talks about being left alone at the house by the heath. Down Bad, much like those songs, deals with feeling abandoned and alone. The way she brings up the sky which again, really ties back to previous songs about Joe.

Blended muses is definitely a thing with Down Bad and the bridge really feels like that is where the most blending happens. Indecent exposures should require zero explanation. Building a fort (protection) on a different planet where people will understand them (see the part of Little TTPD where she tells Jack she feels seen), and the ghosting is her being left safe and stranded.

Also don't know if the ship mentions mean anything, but boats/ships was definitely a thing in songs about Joe including little evermore and SLL.

All good thoughts! It comes down to “all breakups are the same” over and over again.

I answered an ask about my own thoughts about it earlier but the tl;dr is that it’s easy to apply the song to either muse or any of them because they did similar things in different fashions.

(And like I said in the tags there I have a whole tangent about the space/sky motifs for Joe throughout her discography that I’ve had in my drafts for months but my brain isn’t ready to go there lol)

[taylortruther]

Genuine question, do you think Taylor will get a lot of hate if she chooses to be honest on TTPD about her own experiences? If it was anyone else, they'd get away with it but Taylor has been cursed since the beginning of hr career to be moral policed by people on the internet about how she's "weaponzing her feelings" and "capitalizing off of her serial dating antics".

I don't agree obviously, but it scares me that Taylor might censor or even hold back on her songwriting because of it. I think she already did so with SNTV (my opinion).

She's under a lot of spotlight now, and also a lot of scrutiny. Great power an responsibility yada yada.

Anything she says has the potential to be blown out of proportion and she knows it. She knows that if she had a bad experience with Joe and is transparent about it, she'd be accused of "sending her fans to attack him to fulfill her petty desires" etc, very similar accusations to the ones thrusted upon her during Red TV release. I can't even say it's misogyny at this point because other FEMALE artists do the same (tell their side of the story) and manage to garner widespread public sympathy. Taylor truly is an anomaly, and currently her fanbase has expanded to a dangerous level and it's stretched taut, a single indiscretion can rip apart everything.

I feel like Taylor has learnt how to better navigate a situation like this, because this has happened so many times to her in the past. I feel like she truly is treating the game as a game now that she knows how to play, and I fear we might never see her be fully honest with us again (not that she owes us anything, but a lot of fans think this is going to be a Red situation but I don't think so. I think she's gonna hold back on her vulnerability for self preservation purposes).

I fear the albums might start sounding more generic or manufactured as a result of it. Taylor's superpower is her songwriting...and right now virtually EVERYONE has their pitchforks ready, prepared to dissect every word she says on her new album. Taylor doesn't typically like inciting controversy, so she's probably gonna play it safe. She's chosen to go nearly radio silent a week before her album release and I don't blame her. She teased ONE lyric on the eclipse day and got a ton of shit for it already. That is NOT normal.

Idk what do you think?

frankly, i relate to none your concerns fjaklsdl 💀 i think you need perspective. get off swiftie twitter or fauxmoi or wherever lmao.

i think we've seen plenty of proof that taylor is going to be honest in her music. she'll probably continue to limit press in order to limit her words being taken out of context and limit bad faith reactions to her music. that's all she can do short of censor her music which she's pretty much explicitly said she doesn't want to do.