#which isn't helping the inescapable feeling of being alone tbh

[cabinet-of-ecologies]

i know that a good amount/all of this feeling is seasonal depression that has been turbo charged by 1) election 2) full gluten diet & 3) forgetting my meds two days in a row pre-election. but boy howdy does that not make this less intense.

i feel so deeply alone in a way that i know is depression + disassociation but also. it isn't fixed by being around other people, really, and the malaise that is upon me does not make me easy to hang out with rn. which is like "you don't have to be easy to be around!!!!" instant response-bait type of sentence but counterpoint: the being around other people isn't really helping me and i'm not helping them so like. the math isn't mathing on this one folks.

i want to be with all of my people all at once and i don't ever want to talk to anyone again and i want to curl up in bed and i want to run and scream and shout and jump and i want to make things and i want to break things.

and so i am here, in the herbarium, failing at writing labels for specimens.

[distort-opia]

I think most of us here know that Joker loves Batman very much, but what do you think that really means to him, exactly? It seems like he doesn’t understand/process love in the traditional ways that most people do due to his sociopathic tendencies (ex. he’s excessively selfish, usually enjoys hurting Batman more than he enjoys helping him, and likely would not pursue a traditional romantic relationship with him even if that was an option because he prefers what they have now). However, it’s also obvious that Joker feels something very powerful in regards to Batman - something significant enough that it takes over his entire life and tears him apart on the inside. Do you think maybe Joker does feel love for Batman in a more traditional sense, and that he doesn’t know how to process loving someone who stands for everything he hates, so he deliberately forces wedges between them to keep his worldview intact? Do you think maybe he only understands love through a very sadomasochistic lens because of his fascination with violence and his need for conflict? Or do you think it’s a mix of those things - or something else entirely?

A very interesting question. I've been pondering this ask for a while, and to be honest, I think it's... complicated, hah. It's certainly more of a mix of what you're describing.

I would definitely agree Joker does not understand love in the classical sense. I believe the most accurate way to put it is that he feels something all-powerful, an inescapable draw towards Batman, which he's conflicted about. In his own words, in Batman (2016) #48:

God, here, is Batman. Because I do think this is one of the main reasons why Joker's behavior towards Bruce is what it is: hurtful. Metaphorically, Batman is both his and Bruce's religion, and the way they worship is through violence. Bruce by sacrificing himself to the Bat, and Joker by sacrificing others. (Bruce also equates Batman to God during the Cold Days arc, later on. The religious theme in King's Batman run sure is something.)

Can Joker love in the traditional sense? He was capable of it, once upon a time, but I don't know if that's the case anymore. I don't know if Joker can allow himself to love Bruce Wayne, and not just Batman. And not because he's fundamentally incapable of loving without violence, but because he associates any human part of himself with his past. And he's terrified of his own past. He's proven that he'd rather die than deal with his history, his humanity (as seen in Batman: Death of the Family). Loving the way a normal person would -- allowing himself to be kind, to be protective, to be happy -- is something that's not just foreign to his Joker identity, but it's also a threat to it.

The man Joker used to be survived suicide and continues surviving his despair by not being a person. He's turned himself into a monster, chose to fully lean into his psychopathic tendencies, so he feels free to call what he feels towards Batman love as long as his way of showing it is monstrous. But the inescapable draw, the way he's turned Batman into his reason for living, is still there; and here's where an aspect of punishment comes in, I think. Part of the love he feels for Batman isn't monstrous. It's empathy... Batman is the only other person he feels understands him. He's the only equal Joker can perceive in the world, and that's a human connection. He needs Batman to not feel alone, and that's something he hates himself and Batman for. And that's partly where the sadistic torturing of Bruce comes from, and especially of his Family. Joker hates that Bruce can connect with other people, when he only has Batman.

I could rant even more, but I just realized this is more or less a summary of chapter 15 of REMS :)) That's a pretty good indication of how I view Joker's love for Batman, if you're curious for more. The whole fic is "could Batman and Joker love like normal people??" meta in a trenchcoat, tbh.