#when people say this about mlvns i mean

[tender-emotional-music]

I need to do a whole post ranting about this, because it is so hilarious how people will see the leaks of byler always filming together and teaming up and say "it's just them on bikes! Byler isn't real!" or the alleged casting call for young byler + Jonathan and say "omg you delusional losers! There aren't going to be any romantic scenes between 8 year olds!"

Because surely they understand story structure and realise that El and Mike ending on ambiguous terms in s4 + Finn and Noah constantly filming together + Millie and Finn not filming together past the first two episodes + El apparently having a storyline with Hopper and Lucas/Erica/Max (just as the s4 finale foreshadowed!!) does indeed mean something?

I constantly see them refuse to place this information in the greater scope of the narrative and character arcs for s5, instead just interpreting them in isolation. We aren't excited about the flashbacks because we want to see romance between children; we're excited because it demonstrates that their early relationship is important enough to warrant showing on screen, and that whatever that scene establishes will be important to their current-day selves. The bike pics aren't significant because they're hanging out; they're significant because they suggest that they truly are teaming up in s5 and that this pairing will be important to the overall narrative (as is always the case when couples team up in the show). These things imply that the writers do take this plot seriously.

Of course, this doesn't CONFIRM byler, but as I've said before, the only place they can really take mlvn in s5 is them being a team, proving they did work through their issues in s4. But that does not seem to be happening, and yes, that does mean something. People will say that Will needs to move on and learn to be himself. If that were the case, he would not be paired up with Mike. He would be with someone/a group which enables him to foster his identity outside of Mike. Funnily enough, that does seem to be happening....with El.

[love-byers]

Ok but if you are ignoring someone and dont care about them or what they're doing how do you notice that they're rolling their eyes .

unless you're watching them. closely. watching for their reaction to things you say. glancing at them constantly.

and how do you notice someone's barely talking unless you're waiting for them to speak. you want them to talk.

and how do you notice these tiny things when you're seeing the supposed love of your life for the first time in 6 months. why is your attention not on them, to the point you didn't notice they are 1. lying to you and 2. being bullied and picked on.

i only say this because mlvns like to pretend that mike dgaf about will and could care less. which is crazy cause they'll say that and "mike looks at will like that cause they're bffs" in the same breath

if will was lying like that, mike would notice. he always knows when it comes to will. he can just tell. he'd sniff it out immediately and make will tell him the truth. i mean mike literally gets all pissy because will didn't tell him about el's lie. he doesn't care if el lies to him, but he does care if he gets the slightest idea will is.

if will was in el's place and some people showed up, approached will, and will's whole demeanor dropped like el's did, mike would shut that shit down so fast. he would NOTICE.

like i really don't get how mike has been bullied his whole life and didn't pick up on angela and her friends. either he wasn't paying attention at all or he idolizes el so much that he was like "well of course no one would bully her she's a superhero!" which BY THE WAY, IS NOT ROMANTIC OR SWEET IN THE SLIGHTEST.

what is romantic and sweet is noticing every single shift in someone's demeanor even when no one else does. noticing when an already quiet person is extra quiet. i mean mike could probably notice will's eyebrow twitch and be like "WILL WHATS WRONG"

what reinforces this is el. el didn't notice a damn thing about will that day. she knew he picked up on her lies, but she didn't notice his moping or eye rolling or quietness, and if she did she didn't care and it certainly didn't piss her off like it did mike.

mike and el literally directly say what ruined their day.

El, to Angela: You ruined my day.

Mike, to Will: You were moping, you were rolling your eyes, you were barely talking you basically sabotaged the whole day!

[thefirstlioveyou]

"The Last Lie," as the final variation of "The First Lie," why it would be the perfect title

+ the importance of the the songs

(before anything: yes. i know. "it's literally just a song title." but obviously the song is important to the duffers if they wanted multiple versions to put in each season. this song is insight to what's not always being verbalized. the series of this song contains themes of queerness, romantic love, self-discovery, honesty and acceptance. all of it is meaningful and that includes the title pattern that's going on.)

ok so this is gonna be very much a rambling post.

but i was thinking of all the variations of "the first lie," and how the final one is most definitely gonna be for byler, or related to it in some way.

so far we've got... The First Lie (jancy) // The First I love You (mlvn s3 kiss, robin's coming out) // Being Different (Will's Monologue, 3:20-4:29)// Jopper scene S4

(yes. jopper has their own variation! you can tell by the lack of bass, extra added synths and different build up that it's a different version... i'm just not sure why it wasn't included in the soundtrack.)

i got bored and began thinking what the title would be if it were to be for byler.

i've noticed many people suggest to capitalize the 'L' in 'love' to prove that mike's love for will is something real, where as it wasn't for el.

i guess they could do that.

but... that requires them to say that phrase. and i really don't think mike and will are gonna say that to begin with, nor would i want that.

in the stranger things universe, "i love you" has only been a phrase used platonically or by failed relationships. the show really loves to depict love by actions or with other words. they enforce the theme "actions speak louder than words" with their relationships.

in real life, it's important to hear those words 'i love you.' however this is a fictional story that's crafted with precise choices to send an underlying message to the audience. so going by that this means that in this fictional world, el shouldn't need to hear mike say it. no other couple in the show had this issue other than stancy, and well.. you know how that ended up. bullshit.

mike and el had this issue because they don't love each other that way. the desire to hear it comes from none other than their codependency. they rely on each other to have some form of identity or purpose, slowly destructing who they really are in the process.

so while i understand why some may want mike to say 'i love you,' the point is he shouldn't have to say it. his actions should be enough to prove it, if we're following along the themes this narrative is trying to display.

his actions fall flat, and will continue to. although his actions ARE signs he CARES about her, their relationship has no chemistry and especially compatibility. there is no actual romantic love. just unhealthy attachment.

will feels better about himself, he feels loved as a whole, not just as mike's potential partner. mike makes him feel better for being different... but when has mike ever said anything specifically like that? he's never sat down and said, "hey, it's okay to be different." it's mike's actions that make him feel that way. mike's love for will is already being said without actually saying it, just like the other endgame ships. it's following the active theme.

and yeah it can get confusing.. because we're in the pov of will, who thinks it's unrequited... we lost mike's pov... mike's with el.. but the show is deliberately trying to make the audience (at least the heteronormative-blinded part) MISS it, so it can be a whole twist and all that and continue to enforce the theme they're going for.

and let's say the word 'love' is used, i think it'd be used in the context of a letter (ex: love, mike). i just really don't think they will make them say "i love you" if no other endgame couple has before. it disrupts the theme.

now, if not "The First I Love you," then what would be a good title?

personally, i like the idea of "The Last Lie."

why?

because mike needs to stop fucking lying to himself and denying his homosexual desire for his childhood best friend and stop pretending like that dragon poster isn't gay as fuck

no but, THINK ABOUT IT. (this is about to get severely cheesy and probably cringe inducing and i'm sorry)

imagine it. thee byler kiss scene, or whatever it ends up being (but it has to be related to them in some way). this is the moment in which mike finally confronts his truth and accepts it. he isn't bullshitting who he is anymore - being gay, his interests, his true personality.

the 'normal' boy who he tried so hard being... the 'normal' boy he risked his friendships and the love of his life just to be... the 'normal' boy that doesn't enjoy nerdy games... the 'normal' boy who he masked behind just to live a lie.

whether it's by words or a kiss, he's finally letting that lie of a boy go the moment he shares his love for will. and in those seconds of time, it's almost like a promise to himself that 'normal' boy would be the last lie he'll ever try to live again

i fucking love characters who break their own moral code. that's mike - the character that enforced telling the truth and being honest to those you care about, and still ended up being a liar all along.

and it's not even that mike's relearning "friends don't lie." no. he already gets that. we already get that. you're free to disagree here, but what i personally get from mike's overall character is that there will always be an inability to be truthful to others if you can't be truthful to yourself first. mike must live his live authentically and stay true to who he is and what defines him if he wants happiness. otherwise, the lie he digs himself into will only get bigger and bigger, and inevitably will destroy what's important to him (his relationships in this case) and himself.

all this... it already fits the themes the other song variations have been displayed in:

acceptance of a love and finally letting it in -> jancy/jopper

coming out and speaking your truth -> robin

queerness -> robin, mike, will

self-discovery -> mike

just imagine all of those themes just smashed into one title and scene. that track would carry so much meaningful weight.

Ok

maybe this post was just my secret love letter to those songs. but am i really crazy for caring about them? soundtracks in film/tv deserve more love! that little melody is clearly so important to the story, the way the titles it transitions through and what it tells us. i just think it's genuinely brilliant how they managed to do that with one instrumental. that's storytelling!!

ok i'm done now thank you kyle dixon & michael stein. ur my fave bylers

[wakeupthemembersofbylernation]

It is not even that Mlvns are homophobic. I mean, many of the toxic ones are. We’ve all seen them and interacted with them and received hate anons from them. When Noah’s article officially confirming Will’s sexuality dropped during the summer, people were literally tweeting slurs and fantasizing about him being hate-crimed or dying from AIDS. (It’s probably unfair to group Mlvns in with these people, as lots of them weren’t even Mlvns, just bigoted GA members and trolls). But still. It was bleak. There’s a deep darkness within the ST fandom undeniably.

But I’m sure many Mlvns/Byler-antis are the types of people who genuinely have no problem with queer people in real life. When we call them out on their bigotry and homophobia, they get confused and say, “But I have gay friends! How am I homophobic for not liking Byler?” And they mean it 100%. They really do have gay friends. They probably consider themselves allies and yada yada.

The issue is that A) they are deeply heteronormative without realizing it, and B) they simply aren’t the target audience for the show, and as such, they don’t really understand or connect to the themes of the show. The thing is, lots of people, many Milkvans included, are simply normies. Now I love Steve as a character, so this is literally no hate to Steve, but lots of people are Steves. And people who are like Steve: popular, straight, attractive, used to dating the types of people they want, into ‘normal’ interests like sports (not that Steve is hyper into sports, but you know what I mean), likely to go down ‘normal’ paths and live fairly conventional lives like their parents, etc. are simply not the target audience for the show.

Obviously, the show centers on outcasts, nerds, queer characters, characters with disabilities, black characters, etc. Most people recognize this on some level, but they recognize it in more of a general sense like, “Of course the protagonists are nerds/outcasts, just like all the classic 80s teen protagonists. I just love how nostalgic ST is!” And they leave it at that. Because they are normies, they don’t really connect to the themes of the show other than a surface-level, power of friendship sense. They don’t see how Byler is more aligned with the show’s message than Milkvan at this point. They don’t see that the outcast status of most of the characters is more than just a throwaway personality trait… its deeply integral to the point of the show itself and closely connected to the supernatural storyline.

This is because nerd culture is somewhat mainstream now, and lots of “normies” like it too. Star Wars, Marvel, LOTR, Harry Potter, etc. These are all major parts of society and billion dollar franchises, even more so than they were in the 80s. Because of this, people don’t realize that in the context of the world of the show, they wouldn’t have been friends with the Party most likely. It is far more statistically likely that they would’ve rolled with Angela’s friend group or joined Jason’s human hunting squad. Or even if they weren’t outright bullies, it’s far more likely that they would’ve been one of the nameless background characters in Hawkins High, just kind of floating by in a conventionally comfortable existence, entirely oblivious to government lab conspiracies and alternate dimensions. The characters in ST are outcasts in a deeper, existential sense. Society is against them.

And so many people can’t relate, especially to the queer themes. They can’t even see the queer themes. Because the show is not for them. That’s why you see so many baffling takes on the show:

“Will is so whiny all the time, and I don’t like him!”

“Mike was right in the rain fight! S3 is about growing up, and Will was acting like a baby.”

“Tbh I don’t care that much about the Party dynamics. My favorite part of the show is Steve and Dustin being funny together. And my second favorite part is Hopper being a cool action hero.”

“B*lly is overhated! I mean, he’s so hot and misunderstood! He could’ve redeemed himself.”

“I don’t get Byler. It barely seems like Mike and Will are even friends.”

To be clear, it doesn’t mean they don’t enjoy the genre of the show. Being horror/sci-fi, its core fans are a smaller pool of people than, say, fans of The Office or Friends or other popular sitcoms. So the Mlvns who watched it since the beginning probably do have some avant-garde tastes in terms of genre-preferences, since lots of people wouldn’t touch horror with a ten-foot pole. But it does mean they don’t pick up on the themes of the show and the arc of the characters.

(Of course, many newer fans now are just watching it cause it’s popular, regardless of which genres they typically prefer. This opens the show up to lots of people who don’t connect to anything about the show, not just its themes but also its darker content. A lot of newer fans sound like this: “Like, I just love that Mike was in love with El from the day he found her in the woods, and it’s so cute that El is Mike’s superhero, and Eddie is so cool and badass; I wish he could’ve told Chrissy how he felt, and I’m anxiously awaiting S5 to see who Nancy chooses but I hope she chooses Steve… Stancy 4ever!” This is because Stancy is like every other conventionally attractive couple in media).

I’m rambling, but a lot of people are into Milkvan because of their expectations that “pretty boy and pretty girl go together,” and that’s all there is to it. Finn is attractive and Millie is attractive, and they play the protagonists, so of course Mike and El are endgame. Why wouldn’t they be? This is true for the girls who project themselves onto Millie and see Finn/Mike as a dream boyfriend, and it’s true for the guys who project themselves onto Finn and who would want nothing more than to have a cool, superpowered girlfriend.

This is the way of nature. In a normie worldview, there’s no deviation from this path. A lot of fans basically take The Kissing Booth/To All the Boys I Loved Before and slap a sci-fi/horror filter on it, and they think that’s what Stranger Things is. It’s a cool show where kids fight monsters, and there are normal, heterosexual romances like Mlvn to root for, and there’s a badass superhero main character at the center.

Oh, there’s a gay character too? Well, that’s weird. I mean, y’all already have Robin, but whatever. I’m not homophobic! I’m cool with Will being gay… as long as he stays over there. Oh, he’s in love with Mike? Well, that’s even weirder. Why would the writers do that? I suppose that’s fine, as long as it’s just a little crush, and as long as it doesn’t get in the way of “the main storyline” and my OTP. I’m not homophobic, I swear! I have gay friends!

And they do. And they might not actively be against LGBTQ+ people in real life. They may really be telling the truth. But because they are Steves, this is where heteronormativity comes into play and blinds them. Main couples in shows are always straight, so the cool sci-fi, monster show they love must also be. They’re fine with Kevin Kellers, but queer Mike doesn’t fit the box that they allot to gay characters. So Mike must be the straightest character of all time to fight back against “weird delusional Byler theories” that would “come out of nowhere.” It’s not that they’re actively anti-gay; it’s that they are profoundly closed-minded and have a very myopic view of sexuality/storytelling/their favorite characters/their favorite shows. This is very similar to the XO, Kitty situation and people who were upset that Kitty was ‘suddenly’ bi and had a crush on Yuri.

WHAT?! Where did this come from? I thought I was watching a normal rom-com! I was fine with the gay characters on it who were clearly televised from the beginning! But Kitty? No! Kitty’s my self-insert. How can she like girls too? It must be a phase and be “less real” than her male love interests. This isn’t Heartstopper. The same weird energy is present in the ST fandom.

Byler being semi-canon isn’t seen as confirmation of a love triangle; it’s seen as a disruption to the norm and the foregone conclusion that Mike and El will be together forever and get married and have telekinetic children because the show owes that to them for all they’ve been through. “But why is Will inserted into their scenes?” we ask them, begging them to see reason. “Idk, but he should know his place and stop being a homewrecker and go find a new boy to like. Just leave the soulmates alone. Mike has already made clear he’s straight and that Will is nothing more than a friend. He said it in the roller rink!” This is how heteronormativity works.

That’s why Byler endgame will be so important because it will shatter preconceived notions and open people’s eyes to the beautiful tapestry of humanity. And they will see that this powerful, queer, coming-of-age, love story was right there, under their noses, in their “fun sci-fi monster show” this whole time. *Mind Blown*

[carigm]

ABOUT THE NEW PICTURES!

Some new pics from set got released today, and although it’s nothing too exciting, I think it’s worth pointing some things out.

Why so many goddamn bikes? Is everyone in Hawkins riding bikes? 😭 We don’t even have this many main characters lol

I’ve already seen people making jokes about this and the “3 waterfalls”, but in case people believe an ai lip reading in which Mike supposedly utters the words “you gotta improve your motivation”, according to that lip reading they were talking about leaving Hawkins (the local village lol) and finding a place with 3 waterfalls. As you can see, this is a map of Hawkins. So it doesn’t even fit the Mlvn ai lip reading nonsense.

And last we have this pic of little Mike. This is the most interesting thing they shared imo. This picture we’ve already seen in the show before, it was on the Wheelers’ picture mantle in S1, if I’m not mistaken.

Here they’ve placed it on top of two vinyl records. Was it arranged like this just for the picture? If so, what are the implications or what are they trying to hint at?

1. Music will be important for Mike next season because he will be targeted by Vecna.

2. The two records are Treasure Island and Swiss Family Robinson. Originally, these are novels. Both of them feature characters ending up in deserted islands, and they both also feature a character that ends up going back to civilization/society at the end of the journey. Jim in Treasure Island, and Ernest in Swiss Family Robinson.

Here’s a description of both those characters.

They do kinda sound like Mike don’t they? It’s worth noting that Ernest is the second child and he has an older brother (sibling) who’s an excellent shot. I mean…Ernest also abandons/leaves his family at the end of the story.

3. The Swiss Family Robinson inclusion could also be hinting at something else, and imo this is the most likely thing. A couple of months ago, someone leaked that the Wheelers’ house gets completely overtaken by the UD, and the Wheelers’ basically become homeless (I think they end up at the farm). This leaker mentioned the scene was an action packed scene that also featured some members of the party being there, and that it was also Karen’s first real encounter with the UD. Out of all the leaks we’ve gotten, I always believed this person because from little tidbits we’ve seen their leaks are the only ones that seem to match up. Now what is the main plot of the Swiss Family?

A family being shipwrecked and basically becoming homeless.

If I had to put my money on these clues meaning anything, I would say this is the most likely.

Although perhaps we’re looking too much into it and the picture is a hint to us getting a younger Mike flashback? After all, those two records were probably from when he was a kid.

So many possibilities.

[howtobecomeadragon]

here's what mlvn's say about their ship and what they want from s5 when they're not feeling defensive about byler:

(these are from a reddit post posted about a month ago with no byler interactions, and these are many of the same people claiming that mlvn is perfect, there are no big issues, etc when byler is brought up as an alternative ship. all of these comments have upvotes and no arguing. they were all on the same page with no defensiveness about the perceived shortcomings of the relationship and wishing for better for mlvn in s5.)

many acknowledgments that the ship has been sidelined

acknowledgment that El does NOT compliment Mike. acknowledgment that Mike's self esteem is tied to El, although there is no awareness that this not a good thing. they want to see El supporting Mike in some way, which means they know we're currently missing this. they want to see just 20+ seconds of Mike and El enjoying each other's company. "more than 20 seconds" bc the show does this with other couples but they're still waiting to see that with mlvn. 🤨���� "it's only fair." ooookay, and who always says shit about fan service?

acknowledgment that mlvn as a couple has sucked for the last two seasons, for half the show, for the entire time that they've officially been a couple. always going back to the romantic moment of "El fell into his arms in the sauna test" which was not a scripted moment, MBB literally collapsed and Finn caught her. always going back to El being protective, i.e. making sure he doesn't die, which she does for everyone in these scenes.

this was a really interesting one bc I think a lot of bylers think that mlvns want to see improvement from Mike’s behavior in the relationship, but most were more focused on El needing to do more.

"she hasn't demonstrated concern and empathy so much for Mike in the last two seasons" 🤨 then why do you ship it 🤔

"I don't doubt how much El adores and care for Mike but she needs to show it better/more" 🤔🤔 ohhhhh okay, so you have decided that El adores Mike and are frustrated that this isn't reflected well in El's behavior since they've been a couple. you made up your mind probably in 2016 and are frustrated by the lack of follow-up and progression in their relationship since 2017. gotcha. 😇😇

mlvn's blame the writing for El appearing to have inconsistent motivations and characterization bc she isn't a perfect girlfriend to Mike that doesn't act like she's head over heels. hmmm. 🤔

someone seems to be about halfway there in realizing that maybe with her lack of a good foundation of socialization when she entered into a romantic relationship, she doesn't have the standard emotional growth, but not quite extending that as far as "maybe she should grow a little on her own first." reminder that when a byler says something like this, they're accused of ableism and "disregarding what El wants"

acknowledgment that we have not gotten to see mlvn functioning as a couple and that we don't know HOW they function. we don't know their bf/gf dynamics. after 4 seasons. mlvns are often stating to bylers that their endgame ship is already set, all that's left is a happy ending, but in reality they are still hoping to see how their ship functions as a couple, to see one half of the ship compliment the other half. they don't doubt that they are endgame, but they're crossing their fingers for just bare minimum coupley interactions, while all the other established couples get those. I wonder why 🤨🤨

acknowledgment that the duffers haven't been interested in portraying mlvn as a perfect couple: "flakey history"

claims that El was more mature in s1 than s3 and s4. WILD coming from mlvns that call bylers sexist. "more mature" bc she seemed to like Mike more. El not acting like a perfect girlfriend to Mike is bad writing and a total mess apparently. totallllly not purposeful at all, nope 🙄

more acknowledgment that El hasn't been a great girlfriend to Mike. some overlapping reasons with bylers (she's not complimenting Mike, she never apologizes), some not (the root of this is bc she takes on too much responsibility for everyone's safety...?).

acknowledgment that the way mlvn is functioning now is NOT a 2 way functioning relationship and that El is NOT meeting Mike's emotional needs. no acknowledgment of who does meet Mike's emotional need, though. 😏

acknowledgment that their relationship thus far has been bogged down with "unnecessary" arguments and drama

acknowledgment that they don't really discuss their feelings now and there is air that still needs to be cleared

acknowledgment that the writing is good otherwise in the show but for soooome reason it lacks when it specifically focuses on mlvn's relationship. 🤨🤨 again, still hoping for those scraps of "how do these two even play off each other" in the final season and the third season of mlvn together as an official couple.

all of this to say really: the super aggressive mlvns on reddit, for the most part, know that they're exaggerating the idyllic nature of mlvn's relationship when they're arguing against bylers. they thought mlvn was really cute in s1 and s2 and have been waiting 6 years since 2017 for their relationship to be cute again, and they're frustrated and just wanting the bare minimum in s5.

they're still waiting for the basics about "cute moments that last more than 20 seconds," they're still waiting to see how they function as a couple despite them dating for 2 seasons now. they're still waiting for El to act like a good girlfriend and not just a "superhero."

[starbylers]

This is a response to the person who sent me an ask about their doubt last week, just hiding it below incase people don’t want to see that :)

For context this is an in-depth explanation of:

Why Mike’s monologue had to happen

Hi! And yeah of course I can try. I fully understand why the monologue is throwing you off and as someone who doesn’t believe Mike was consciously lying you’ve come to the right place lol. I explained a little more about why I think that in the tags here if you wanted to read more about that perspective. I’ll probably link to a few other posts in this aswell because it ties into a lot of stuff I’ve made Byler analyses about before.

So the thing you said about his arc being ‘does he love her or not?’ is what I think is causing the issue, because that isn’t Mike’s arc. You’re right in that that’s the question that is being posed to the audience at face value, but that’s not his character journey. I have a long post about this here but essentially, the core driving force of a character cannot be another person—Mike needs to, and does, have his own personal inner conflicts which the Byler perspective provides (pressure to perform being grown up which is made incredibly obvious to us in s3, and dealing with the tumultuous process of figuring out that he is not straight in s4—I personally don’t think he’s there yet though, I think the full realisation of why he’s been having all these problems with Will & El is still to come).

The perspective of ‘yes he does’ love her just because he said the words is the crux of the entire plot twist, because it’s the conclusion people inevitably come to when they don’t pay attention to the details. (I don’t mean this insultingly at all btw! The whole thing is very subtle and easy to misinterpret). And ST is all about details, something which has been told to us by the creators and is also obvious in their use of foreshadowing/hinting/referencing in all aspects of the show, not just Byler.

Mike’s arc didn’t finish a season early. This has even been told to us i.e. by David talking about how s5 will pay off big characters including Mike, and Finn himself saying Mike still has a ‘journey’ to complete, and also just the fact that we don’t have the final season means no-one’s arcs are complete because the story isn’t complete. The fact that a “love confession” occurred at the midpoint (s4/5 are basically intended as two halves of one story—post explaining this here) is what makes it extremely obvious that Mlvn is not the conclusion of this tale.

The monologue can probably be said to have many purposes, but here are the main ones to me:

It presents a solution that ultimately ends in disaster, and associates that disaster with Mike and El’s romance. The monologue is so, so important in showing that Mike and El’s love did not, could not save the day. That it wasn’t strong enough—further proof from the script here. It shows that El got what she thought she wanted, only to discover it wasn’t what she really needed. It may have helped save her but it didn’t help her achieve her goals (save Max, kill Vecna). Kind of a metaphor for their entire relationship lol. It’s also supposed to show that not even an ‘I love you’ can fix their issues—they literally don’t speak afterwards. I’m not sure El’s fully processed all this yet, but figuring it out is what’s going to drive her arc towards self-actualisation and allow her to win next season.

It furthers the miscommunication plot between Mike and Will. It’s an indisputable fact that Will’s lie influenced that monologue. (We can tell just by watching but it’s also in the script if we needed even more proof lol. Not to mention: the track that plays behind it is You’re The Heart. The episode is called The Piggyback. Will’s face is right over Mike’s shoulder when he says ‘I love you’—Will is integral to and inseparable from that confession). That is so important, and something we’re supposed to notice. The whole point of the monologue is who’s really behind it (aka who’s really behind the painting & words that drove Mike’s speech), because this sets the stage for the Byler confrontation next season. It’s literally the Benverly poem plot from IT, something we know the Duffers have taken inspiration from.

If Mike hadn’t gone through with it, there would be no movement forward in the story, we’d enter s5 with exactly the same plot we just watched in s4—Mike trying to say he loves his girlfriend for the literal third season in a row. It’s boring, it’s not good entertainment. Mike finally saying it (and yet there still being problems between them & it occurring under questionable circumstances) pushes development in the narrative, sets up new conflict for the next season. Or, if Mlvn had decided to break up because of Mike not saying it in s4, that would’ve led to Byler becoming painfully obvious and ruining the twist they’ve been setting up for literal seasons. Everyone knows Will loves Mike, and if Mlvn broke up in that same season the entire audience would see the ending of the show coming from a mile away. Remember, Byler is being written as a plot twist. It’s very likely tied up with the supernatural plot too.

The content of the monologue itself is supposed to demonstrate precisely why Mlvn are finished, why they don’t work, and should raise people’s eyebrows about the legitimacy of Mike’s “confession”. Like you said…he remembered her t-shirt lol. It’s impersonal, nothing about why he loves her or what he loves about her; he literally, proveably, lies in it and anyone can verify that by watching s1; and he makes comparisons to superheroes which is the exact opposite of what El needs (her whole issue is thinking she’s either the monster or the superhero, when what she really needs is to stop thinking in such a binary, and learn to be El the teenage girl, the sister, the daughter, the friend, the human being, and find her power in that).

And something else they purposefully do this season is give us examples of other love confessions to contrast and show how ingenuine Mike’s really is: Jancy & Will (not my original post! I just expanded on op’s point).

Now as I said before I don’t think Mike intentionally lied. My opinion is that he knows deep down something is not right with their relationship and that he doesn’t feel how he should, but after Will’s speech and encouragement he choses to believe that he can love her, that he can be what she needs (except it’s not what she needs, it’s what Will needs lol). So not lying, but the monologue is basically a desperate attempt to a) grasp at straightness and b) save her life. He’s in denial, and also terrified of her dying. Very bad combo.

So yeah there’s my reasoning :) what you were saying about the potential of a familial ‘I love you’ is true, yeah it could’ve ended the plot line. But that’s the kind of thing that should be a conclusion to the entire story, something that occurs right before victory not disaster. Because then what would the implication be? That El’s family’s love isn’t enough for her to save the world?

And the way they will explain the monologue is so simple. It’s Will. It’s Will’s feelings that inspired Mike. All that needs to happen is for Mike to realise that, and the audience will realise it along with him. Mike: I only said that because of how much Will loves me? Audience: Oh! So he doesn’t actually love her! It’s Will, Will is who he’s meant to be with! It’s a classic ‘the person who was right in front of them all along’ trope. Once people understand that, it basically makes truly romantic interpretations of the monologue invalid.

I can’t say exactly how the ending will play out—I expect we’ll see the cracks in Mlvn shatter rapidly as s5 progresses, maybe more arguing/demonstration of their incompatibility or El asking Mike to say it to her face and he still can’t, Mike and Will simultaneously getting closer and it becoming increasingly obvious that Mike is in love—but I’m choosing to trust they’ll do it justice. Mike’s monologue is just a key turning point in the larger story.

Also just one last thing, you said he seems sincere and I do agree but I think it’s because his fear in that moment is extremely real, and there are truths within his monologue i.e. that he doesn’t want to lose her etc. so that’s where it’s coming from in my opinion :)

[will80sbyers]

Do we know for sure that dyersfilms on twitter is wrong? I wasn’t in the fandom before season 4 so I don’t know but people are saying she was correct about the spoilers she posted. I’m kind of getting a little concerned honestly because she’s saying mlvn is still together and that the rooftop scene that got leaked is them talking about their future together and Mike is apparently ready to take their relationship to the “next level” whatever that means. I’m just really starting to doubt byler is happening at this point.

What she has admitted for now is that her sources told her "the roof scene is not a break up" (imo because they already broke up) and that Hopper has a storyline where he has to learn to let Eleven grow up that's related to Mike and El and that Will is still upset because he's still in love with Mike... To me that doesn't really look good for mlv at all narratively - plus look at this, she's taking the lip reading of the waterfalls as proof "the technology we have"

I think people should just rewatch the show and trust their eyes before random accounts, and keep in mind even when she has real spoilers she adds her spin to it so I wouldn't worry much - things are lacking context

[sacredindigos]

i think mlvns bought the monologue just because they completely throw out and ignore all the context behind it. they think "oh well he said it so it MUST be the truth" and they disregard all the canon information and events that were given to us leading up to the monologue.

LIKE:

mike avoided saying he loved her or writing "love" in his letters to her even tho she had been saying she loved him for months. he didn't say it or write it and he made her feel unloved for MONTHS.

when confronted about never saying he loved her, he acted like he had something to hide. he got defensive and insulted her and tried to blame other people and change topics. he never insinuated to her or to the audience that he does love her.

he admitted to will TWICE that he felt like he should have just told her what she wanted to hear or should have "explained himself" JUST SO she wouldn't have left him behind. not because he would have meant it or because that is how he actually feels for her. no he was fully preparing himself to tell her what she wanted even if he didn't mean it just so she wouldn't leave his ass.

it was heavily implied that mike is scared to tell el the truth about his feelings towards her because he thinks she won't like the truth. el wanted him to love her ... he thinks she won't like the truth ... pretty self explanatory.

he is scared of losing her and scared of her not needing him. he wants to be important enough to her or at least be able to offer her something she needs or wants just so she won't leave him.

mike could only say he loved her when her life was on the line, when will was pressuring him into saying something to help her, and after being reminded of will's speech in the van (where mike was under the impression that el does need him romantically)

things he said in the monologue directly contradict what we saw leading up to the monologue AND from past seasons. there were noticeably detectable LIES.

like ... idk about yall but none of that to ME seems like mike is in love with el. to ME it seems like mike is aware he isn't in love with el and doesn't know how to tell her. and he cares about el so much and he doesn't want to lose her so instead of telling her the truth, he is willing to try and give her whatever she wants or needs (which he thinks is his love) even if it can't be given genuinely just so he can keep her in his life and make her happy. like he cares about her SO much and is so scared of losing her that he's willing to force himself into "loving her" and into giving her what she wants/expects from him if it means he won't lose her/she won't leave him. he's willing to live a lie to make her happy and to keep her. and that is born from (as other people before me have said) his trauma and guilt over her fake death in s1 and this borderline unhealthy attachment he has formed to her over the years. THAT is what it seems like to me.

so i can never view the monologue as a genuine declaration of love. i can only view the monologue as something depressing. because mike is having to lie just so he won't lose el. he is feeling pressured into loving her and into giving her what she wants. it's sad as fuck.

[strangertheories]

I love Byler as much as the next girl but saying everyone is stupid and has no media literacy and isn't watching the show correctly if they don't see Byler as an inevitability or thought Mlvn might have liked each other at some point is a weird take. Maybe they watched it, understood the plot and disagreed with you? For the people who talk a lot about media analysis, you guys sure seem to hate analysis if it doesn't fit into your very specific set of opinions.

Just because someone ships Mileven or thinks Mike is bi doesn't mean they understand the show less than you or don't get the plot. In fact, I disagree with a lot of takes about the show I see on here but wouldn't publicly call them dumb (unless it's blatant homophobia, making the fandom unsafe or in an ask to me). This weird superiority from Bylers can make people in the fandom scared to voice their actual opinions on stuff. When I post defending this sort of thing, I actually get a lot of asks from people saying they are too scared to agree with me on their mains or off anon which is really sad. By calling other fans stupid, it hinders discussion of media and makes it really unpleasant for a lot of people.

I have watched ST countless times, sometimes with Byler endgame in mind and sometimes without; the way I view it is always impacted by that conclusion. Just because someone is watching with a different conclusion to you doesn't mean they are watching the show wrong. I'm sure many fans on other social media platforms would say the same thing to you about Byler because if you watch the show with the predetermined notion that Byler won't be endgame, your viewing experience is different! Neither interpretation has been confirmed or denied so maybe saying people just don't understand the show if they don't agree with every take you make is a bit...wrong?

I don't know. I'm not trying to be controversial or say Byler isn't endgame, just let's avoid calling people stupid or acting like we're better than other fans because they think Mike Stranger Things and Will Stranger Things aren't in love. And if someone comes into my askbox to tell me why Byler will or won't be endgame, you missed the point! I'm not saying either take is bad, I'm just saying you can support one take and not say other people are watching the show "wrong". We'll just have to see in S5.

[theoriginalsapphic]

disproving the mlvn bingo

“I want El to grow on her own”

This is a bad thing because…? El is a child that grew up the first twelve years of her life locked up in a lab and used for her powers. Then she got out and spent a week helping a group of kids to find their missing friend, almost died, survived in the wilderness by herself for approximately a month, and was forced in isolation in a cabin in the woods for another year.

The first time she got to actually go to the outside world to have fun like a girl her age should was at the snowball dance, in December of 1984 / January of 1985, and even she would still spend most of her time hiding from the world in the cabin. The only other time she got to live like a normal girl was when she went out shopping with Max. After that, she got involved again with the Upside Down, lost her father-figure, and moved to the other side of the country with people she barely knew.

As of canon, she has only been living in the real world for, and I’m being extremely generous with this estimate, fifteen months. Most people her age need time to grow on their own and focus on themselves, and they lived in relatively normal circumstances and in a society their whole lives. Saying that El may need some time to get to know herself first isn’t misogynistic, or ableist, it’s just common sense.

Ableist to El, Mocks El’s speech

Connected to the previous point. El is a fourteen year girl that spent twelve of those years locked away and being dehumanized and never getting the chance to properly socialize. It’s a reasonable thing to say that it will take her time to catch up to people her age who have lived in society their whole lives. It’s not ableist to point out this. In fact, completely ignoring this aspect of her character means ignoring the influence that it has on her character, which brings a whole layer of complexity to her.

Also, anyone who is ableist to El (or to anyone for that matter) sucks! I’m glad we can agree on that! But I’m not okay with mlvns crying out ableism any time someone criticizes the ship only to turn around and be ableist to Max or Dustin (and Gaten by default).

“El doesn’t understand being in a relationship”

Maybe she has an understanding of what being in a relationship means at the end of season four, but she should have never been put in a relationship so early on. Fresh-out-of-the-lab twelve-year-old El shouldn’t have been kissed and later put on a relationship with the first age-appropriate boy who showed her kindness and who had to explain her basic concepts like friendship and privacy. Those are concepts that are supposed to be taught by your parents— not your boyfriend.

May I need to remind people that this is a canon scene from season 3?

Mind you; she has been dating Mike for around six months already at this point.

Part of El learning to understand what being in a relationship means is also learning what kind of things she wants and can accept in a relationship, which, she spends most of season 3 doing.

Mike lied in the monologue

Well, sorry to tell you this, but… he did!

and El knows it.

MiIeven cheating trope!!

As someone who hates cheating and has been personally harmed by the actions of a cheater… let people write whatever they want in their fics. If someone wants to explore that in fiction then they should be able to do it. (Also, I doubt the Duffers would ever write Mike cheating on El, so you can relax about that).

Blames Millie for miIeven

I don’t associate myself often with her fandom because although she seems like a lovely person her fandom is absolutely rancid, but she seems someone who likes to play the audience and have fun. She had said she ships miIeven and wants a wedding for them. She had said she ships byler and wants a love triangle with them. Whether Millie actually means it, is pandering to the fandom, or it’s just straight up trolling and having fun… it doesn’t matter, and I doubt she actually cares as much as people want her to care.

Neither Millie nor any of the actors have any power over whatever decisions the Duffers end up choosing in their writing. If anyone blames any of the actors for whatever happens to their characters, they are fucking idiots; simple as that.

Sexist to El

And yet, mlvn shippers are the ones I often see saying how much El needs Mike, of how she would kill Will if Mike left her, of how she was capable of fighting Vecna only because Mike told her he loves her, of how the only person that actually cares about her is Mike, completely disregarding her family and friends that love her deeply.

I don’t know about you, but I think that reducing El to be this needy girl who is dependent on her boyfriend and makes her to seem that her boyfriend is the only thing she cares about and should care about is… really sexist.

El is a character who consists of two main parts: of trying to create her own identity and of wanting a family, which are both interconnected with how she was stripped of her autonomy since birth and how she wants to belong somewhere.

El grew for the first twelve years of her life with the understanding that love is transactional and conditional on what she can do for others. This is seen mostly in season 1, with El being used for Brenner’s experiments, and when she exerts herself to the point she almost dies for a group of kids that wanted to find their missing friend.

With every season, there is something new that she leans about herself that helps her become a person. Because that is an aspect that people rarely talk about El; she wasn’t even treated like a human being for 85% of her life, but rather just a lab rat.

In season 2, she embarks on a journey all by herself to find out about her mother, and later, her sister Kali. This remarks what El has been wanting her whole life— a family.

In season 3, she explores her identity and her likes and dislikes through fashion and hobbies for the first in her life with Max (I have a whole post about how El’s development of regaining her autonomy is shown through her clothes).

In season 4, she outright says that she doesn’t belong anywhere, and is struggling with the dichotomy that her powers bring: is she a monster or a superhero? At the end of the season, she has come to terms with the complexity of who she is, determining that she is both and neither, and she has finally found a family. She doesn’t belong to a specific place, but to people. Hawkins isn’t her home; her friends and family are. She belongs with them.

So, tell me: who is being sexist to El? You, who reduces her to her romantic relationship… or me? And yes, female characters can be in romantic relationships and still be their own characters, but El isn’t like most of female characters in the sense that she never got the chance to figure out her identity and what she wants before getting in a relationship.

Ships El with a random party member so Mike will be free

miIeven wishes they had what elmax has

“MiIeven is unhealthily and codepent”, “Mike pays too much attention to El, he doesn’t make time for his friends!”

I mean… I’m not the one saying it, blame the Duffers for that one.

Mike looks he is about to sneeze but he’s looking in Will’s directions so it’s heart eyes

If Mike looked at El the way he looks Will you wouldn’t shut the fuck up about it.

cr: @/mvltibyers

Taking the monologue and replacing El with Will and suddenly it’s peak romance

Why would I want byler to have that poorly lighted and directed, and badly written monologue when I already have this one?

Calls El bald and think they did something

I agree! It’s wrong to make fun of El being bald when that fact is tightly connected with how she was stripped off of her femininity as a form of dehumanization and it’s one of the most visible signs of the abuse that was inflicted on her.

However, may I need to remind you that those ‘jokes’ are usually in response with you calling Will literally homophobic slurs or are you going to play coy and innocent?

Compares Mike to Brenner

Blame the Duffers for this one, not us for noticing it.

Hates on Mike but wants him with their fave

You're so right! I don't see the point of shipping a couple if you hate half of it, especially because it would mean to reduce his character to be only a love interest and nothing else. Anyway, what character arc do you think Mike is going to go through in season 5?

Bring ups miIeven break up

They really couldn’t have made it more obvious that’s where they headed so, yes; I want them to break up and I think it will benefit both of their characters. Sorry for following the story, ig.

Says miIeven wasn’t together for s4

Don’t forget to mention how they also weren’t together for season 2 and most of season 3! In fact, it almost seems like after they shared the first kiss, they were never allowed to share a significant amount of screen time together again.

Also, Mike and El aren’t real people; if the Duffers don’t write them to share screen time together it’s because they don’t want to.

The Duffers wrote it so El spent most of season 2 searching for her mom and her sister and longing for freedom. The Duffers wrote it so El spent most of season 3 with Max learning about what she likes and trying to create her own identity away from male influence. The Duffers wrote it so El spent most of season 4 in NINA, which was probably the most important part of her character arc in the show so far.

The Duffers also wrote it so Mike spent most of season 2 with Will. The Duffers wrote it so the fight between Mike and Will was more emotionally charged than his breakup with El, and they wrote it so Mike and Will have a one-on-one goodbye scene just like miIeven and jvncy.

The Duffers wrote it in season 4 so Will is revealed as gay and in love with Mike in the same season that Mike can’t say ‘I love you’ to El, has a fight that, in his words, “can’t come back from”, for Mike to nod when Wills says: “what if they don’t like the truth?”, and needs to get backrubs and compliments from his bff so he can finally say that ‘I love you’ to his girlfriend while she in on the brink of dying. Oh, and also they spend the whole season together.

Go figure.

Calls El “Jane” or “Eleven”

Like everyone in the show does?

I think the only person that has never called her ‘Eleven’ is Hopper.

“You don’t understand Mike/El like I do!”

And I’m so glad I don’t.

[love-byers]

I was never on board for m*leven as a ship because of season 1, what do you mean you’re gonna throw a super powered girl, who escaped from a lab, that knows nothing about the world into a romance???

It’s not healthy for her, she didn’t even know who she is as a person and only started exploring her identity season 2 on wards. Idk the shop never sat right with me because of that.

yep i 100% agree and i was only 12 when s1 came out

byler was not even in my stratosphere when i first saw s1, and i felt the same. completely honestly, i was hoping mike would be gay just because at the time i was tired of straight people and just wanted some queer rep. idk why i picked mike but i did lol

but i got over that quick and didn't hate mlvn or anything, i thought they were cute. but still i felt like their kiss came out of nowhere, like it genuinely shocked me. and i really don't know why, but i just didn't like the scene. something just felt off about them.

and overall i felt the same, that el literally knew nothing about the world or relationships and was jumping into a romantic relationship after being free for a week. it just didn't feel healthy. and at the time, i didn't like the scene where el asked mike if she was still pretty. i mean im not saying HORRIBLE TOXIC ABUSIVE like of course its not that, but in the long run for their relationship i just didn't like it. i didn't think el seeking validation from mike like that was setting up a long healthy relationship. like we see el see nancy's picture and call her pretty, and later she goes in nancy's room and looks at all her pictures from throughout her life, and it makes her sad. she wants to feel that way--like a normal, pretty girl.

then when mike dresses her up to go to the school, she feels pretty. she asks mike if she looks pretty, and he says yes. she's seeking validation from him. and later when her wig gets messed up and she looks at herself in the waters reflection and tries to put it back on, it infuriates her, because she doesn't feel pretty anymore. and when she sees mike again, she once again seeks out the validation. she was worried that mike wouldn't think she was pretty anymore. it really makes me think that el did not love mike, or the other way around. she latched onto him because he was the first person to show her kindness and make her feel normal. they kissed after a WEEK. thats not love, thats attachment. jumping into a relationship because of complex trauma and attachment without having time to consider their actual compatibility as a couple.

and yes yes yes i know they're 7th graders, they're not going to be perfect, but this is a television show. we only get to see a sliver of these relationships in the long term, so what we do see needs to be building them up and making them likable. there is no time to break them down and build them up again. thats just not how you write a love story.

[booksandpaperss]

So I’m sure we all know by now that just like Barb’s death is directly tied to stancy, Max’s death is directly tied to mlvn’s relationship… but it doesn’t stop there.

You know what else mlvn is directly linked to? It’s the only reason they even met actually.

Will’s disappearance.

Their relationship was bones coded simply by tying it to Will going missing from the very start, just like stancy. I don’t even think Mike even fully realizes this, but subconsciously he must associate his relationship with El to Will’s disappearance in a similar way Nancy does with her relationship with Steve to Barb, especially considering the Mike-Nancy parallels when it comes to stancy and mlvn (+ jancy and byler)

I don’t think it’s the exact same, Mike’s relationship with El is way more complex than Nancy’s relationship with Steve imo, but parallels are meant to show similarities in the narrative, not identical situations.

So basically, not only does El associate mlvn with Max dying but Mike also associates mlvn with losing Will. He’s even said this himself in the bedroom scene, and that feeling is rooted deeper than he realizes. There’s also something to be said about the simple fact that narratively, Mike and El’s romance literally would not have been possible without Mike loosing Will first. Talk about double meaning.

That is all to say, this is yet another parallel example of Mike and El’s relationship being mutually toxic for each other. They both feel that their relationship is linked to loosing one of the people they care about the most aka the person they’re in love with but that’s an elmax conversation for another time 👀

[itsjustbyler]

Well. About what David Harbor said. He is know for lying a lot, however the way he said it makes me doubt byler for the first time. I don't know what to think to be honest.

From a writing point of view, why tf they wrote Will in love with Mike in the first place? Why all of those problems in mlvn relationship if not for the audience to see them as toxic or at least a problematic relationship? Why Will doesn't have any other love interest? Why they just didn't end that storyline in S3 with the infamous "it's not my fault you don't like girls" and speaking of that, wtf is wrong with Mike? Depression doesn't turn you into a homophobe and Mike clearly wasn't one when he pushed troy for being one. Repeatly stating to Will that they are just friends and that the fact that Will doesn't like girls is not his problem for what if not projecting? It is confirmed that he doesn't know Will is gay and in love with him, so he is just assuming their bullies were right and pushing Will away because of it? I think Mike is so much better than that and if they really wrote Mike to be like this, shame on them.

Honestly, if David wasn't lying, they can not get away with the queerbait accusations.

And also, the way they used byler to promote St day? they didn't acknowledge mlvs relationship and Mike's monologue at all. I mean... I don't know what to think really. I still love byler, I still think mlvn should break up either way for the sake of Mike and El.

The duffers should just straight up say that byler isn't endgame if thats the case because they already queerbated a lot, leading people to still believe until S5 finally drops is absolutely disgusting.

[findafight]

It is tiring to be regarded as a 'homophobe' when you claim to not like a queer ship or say you do not think a queer ship is going to be canon & should not go canon. ST fandom has this type of fans especially Bylers and recently Ronancers. Sorry that I do not think Byler has a chance of being wrapped up in a nice way when the writers actively refused to even breakup Mileven in this season and intentionally added a confession scene on the show from Mike to El. We literally have 1 season left with everything else going on in a limited time frame but I am expected to be okay with the possible resolution of this whole thing, and should expect a nice wrap up where we supposedly will see Mileven break up, Mike and El moving on from each other, there will be a time for them to adjust to that, for Mike to consider dating Will HECK even for Will to consider confessing and dating Mike, for the writers to make that all believable to the audience in a nice way within the narrative.... and I am expected to like Ronance when Stobin is one of the most important platonic relationships on the show and we canonically know Nancy and Steve's break up was bad, and that Steve still has feelings for Nancy. I want to see representation, I really do but it feels like the fandom itself is bending any logic and sensibility to make a ship seem reasonable and make sense within the narrative... when it really does not.

God. Yeah. Like sure queer people can have internalized homophobia or intra community basis (like bi/a/trans phobia) etc but to say someone's a bigot just because they don't like the a fictional ship, or even that they just don't think it will be canon, is just silly and causing problems on purpose.

The intense blr shippers have really turned me off the ship, honestly. I have a few asks from them saved as drafts just to get them out of my inbox, and they're saying the same as others "we're fighting homophobia" "you're just as bad as people saying why don't we shut up about blr and ship mlvn if you don't think this has been part of a grand and epic master plan for the greatest romance ever" as well as just not understanding what the very specific phenomena of queerbaiting is, all telling me I don't belong in the ship because I don't ship it correctly. So. Makes me feel bad and really disappointed. People who ship mlvn (which my original post was also tagged, because it discusses them too) DIDNT come to my inbox and call me names or a fake shipper when I said I thought they should break up. Make of that what you will.

As much as Will and Mike getting together would mean to people, putting that much emotional weight and expectation and emphasis on a single aspect of a show, a single ship, is not healthy. It also, if it does happen, will not be the epic romance planned from the start they think it is. (We remember tjlc, right?? RIGHT??) If it happens it will possibly be slap dash and rushed, because you're right. There's a lot happening, the show struggles with ending/starting romances, and they are NOT the only characters that matter. The breathing room required for both Mike and El AND the audience to make the breakup feel real and that enough time has passed to not make Mike look like an asshole for immediately dating his ex's brother (and for Will not to look like an ass for dating his sister's ex?!?) Is now insufficient given how short the seasons are, and as you said, they should've broken up in S4 to pull that off.

And then the fandom would likely feel a bit cheated after building it up so much in their heads, only for it to be a bit of a flop. But I guess a lot of people don't mind how Nancy and Jonathan got together, so with the way some of the people in my inbox were talking about El then it could be like that too. Just. Not giving a shit if someone, a character I personally love, was really hurt and betrayed by her recently ex boyfriend and her BROTHER.

Pretending it was all fine because romantic love is the most important thing ever to them I guess. When it's not, especially in the show! Non romantic bonds are so important to these characters! It would just ruin it for me, because what I was originally saying was that Will, Mike, and El all mean so much to each other and actively try to not hurt one another (even if the do accidentally or end up hurting themselves) and that, because Will and El are siblings now, Will might think twice about dating Mike so soon after he broke up with El. It would make them look cold hearted and selfish tbh. That's why a good ending would be Will feeling comfortable enough to come out, and being accepted by his friends. (All of them not just Mike) and that final emphasis on the Party as a whole rather than individual Romo relationships.

It's actually very important to consider other people's feelings in everyday life, I think. Sure, ultimately they shouldn't dictate all your actions, but there will be consequences for some of them. They can lose friendships, or other relationships. It can also make a character look REALLY BAD.

For rnce, people go on about how Robin absolutely does not need to consider Steve's feelings in pursuing a girl. (Ignoring other issues people have with the ship that have nothing to do with Steve, lol) And sure. Okay. For every girl but the one that broke his heart, cheated on him, and who he still has feelings for that Robin herself encouraged. People are out here saying they could be endgame without completely ruining stobin's friendship like huh??? Do they understand Robin "what if we just combined" Buckley? Do they not care about the most important relationship in her life? Do they not care about her beyond how she can hype up Nancy instead of one of those icky boys?

A problem I have with rnce is that a lot of the writing saying it could be canon (which, lbr, it won't be. While I think blr may be canon just in a kind of disappointing way, I don't think there's any chance of rnce happening, especially with Vickie right there blushing and flirting with Robin) only focuses on how it would be good for Nancy, or if it's trying to make it seem good for Robin ignores their personalities and other relationships. Like Nancy isn't annoyed by Robin until Robin's speech gets them into Penherst, or that Nancy wasn't dismissive of Robin's ideas, and Robin wasn't clearly nervous and apologizing for being annoying in order to get Nancy to like her (tbh I think Nancy should have been the one pursuing a friendship with Robin instead of the other way around but alas). Tbh I could go on about how Nancy and her relationships and her needs/wants inside those are often misdirected? Misidentified? By fandom, and how that feeds into Robin being reduced to someone who supports Nancy (which, if people complain about Robin considering her bffs feelings about her dating someone, shouldn't they complain about her becoming a glorified cheerleader for Nancy...oh. it's because it's romantic. And some parts of this fandom value that most.) In rnce, which strips Robin of her personality and makes it boring. But this is already long haha (Not to mention it'd be super weird for Nancy to be dating her ex she cheated on and never actually told she cheated on him's best friend. Awkward!!)

I used to not mind rnce that much, tbh. I didn't get it and did think it was weird but the art was cute! And now it's sort of an alarm bells for people being weird about stobin.

Steve and Robin's relationship, like so many platonic relationships but more glaring with just how obsessed with each other they are, is often devalued by the fandom by virtue of the idea that a romantic partner needs/should be someone's number 1. Even though those two want to combine, and are seen taking active roles in trying to get them a romantic relationship, and are really the first person the other felt they could be completely themself around. They're the most important person to the other, regardless of their romantic relationship status.

[thewrongmoon]

ACTUALLY I'LL SAY IT NOW: many fans (usually more casual ones) treat relationships on the show as either a way for self-insertion or as a way to "reward" characters and its honestly really fucking stupid?

like relationships should be about chemistry and communication and what is best for them as CHARACTERS.

st*ncy for an example:

steve is a fan favorite. steve is funny, attractive, charismatic. steve has been trying and failing to get a gf for 2 seasons.

nancy is a pretty girl who steve is attracted to. because steve is so nice and attractive, people think that means he deserves nancy. not only are you ignoring the characters goals, personalities, and aspirations, you're being incredibly misogynistic in thinking a girl is like a prize for a character you like.

other st*ncy fans, usually the female ones, do also believe this to an extent, but they also want to be the one to date steve. nancy is easy for women to project themselves on to, she's smart, pretty, funny, but has an edgier side to her. so they ship st*ncy as a way of kind of also shipping themselves w/ steve.

but the same is also true for byler/mlvn.

most mlvn fans are like. and i'm saying this because its true, not to demean anyone, usually either teen girls or nerdy guys from reddit.

teen girls are attracted to mike, and they insert themselves in the role of el. el is kind of a blank slate (through no fault of her own, mostly through trauma) so this is pretty easy.

nerdy guys from reddit can project themselves on to mike because mike is nerdy and unathletic. el is objectively a pretty girl, and she has super powers which make her special. these guys think its good representation for them when a guy like mike has a girlfriend like this, because it's also exactly what they want.

now byler, and this is controversial, can also be found guilty of this. specifically i see this from bylers who really hate mike or really love will. because they think will is perfect, he's been through so much pain, he deserves to be with mike, because he is in love with mike. this is once again kind of just using mike as a prize, and not really taking into account what mike actually wants as a character, or how well these characters fit together. now mike and will do actually fit together and have good chemistry/communication, which definitely complicates things. like, you got the right answer but with the wrong equation, you know? but because of this when you "show your work" (yes i'm going with the math analogy) your interpretation doesn't match well with people who solved the problem correctly.

tl;dr-- relationships are made of TWO people (sometimes more) and you have to consider both sides of the equation. you also have to look at how they work together, and how well what the characters want line up. if you ARE just going to rely entirely on self-projection or wanting what a single character wants, then that's actually completely fine too, but just be open about it, yknow?