#was treating them like a queerbait I guess

[shurup-overt]

the terukane development still blows off my mind because what do you mean akane considers himself telling teru to go away while he's on a date with aoi an ooc thing. I grew up in a time when "hearing sorry from you is creepy" was legit his most normal and calmest response

ashamed to admit but I'm still there. my mind is still there. and then I watch in pure horror how akane caresses teru's back

[fvckw4d]

The concept of queerbaiting annoys me. I was told that it refers to a work of fiction pretending to cater to a queer audience but then pulling back from it to avoid alienating homophobes, which is an incredibly specific thing. But a lot of people seem to think that it instead means "any time there's any gay subtex, metaphor, or ambiguity" or "whenever something from 1995-2012 was being a normal amount of homophobic for the era."

[killing-hannibals-body]

This may seem controversial:

Agatha All Along ISN’T queerbaiting.

Look. I’m 31. I’m old by tumblr standards. I’ve been through fandom after fandom.

As a lesbian, I’ve chased many shows hoping for gay representation only to be treated like an idiot. “How dare you see something that isn’t there?” “You’re delusional and perverted.”

I was burned by SwanQueen where they established clear sexual tension, advertised it as such then ridiculed you for seeing it that way.

I was obsessed with Rizzoli and Isles, only for them both to end up with men, and, once again, ridiculed for seeing anything but a platonic, heterosexual friendship:

I adored Killing Eve, but for the first couple seasons, they denied and tried to subvert any expectations that there was any sort of lesbianism going on.

Agatha All Along isn’t that. Sure, we didn’t get a kiss. Sucks, but the season isn’t even half way over. We’re not being mocked or chastised for “seeing something that isn’t there”. It’s there. We see it. The creators see it. How far it’ll go is anyone’s guess, but to treat it like bait is to forget what actual bait is.

Not to sound old and jaded, but you guys don’t know queerbaiting. Amazing for you! But don’t accuse a show that’s doing something special and controversial as being bait because you don’t see tongue.

[scarefox]

Haven't watched anything KristSingto recently but he's right

You can think of fanservice what you want. But the moment you want to police or censor it, it turns into something really problematic. And this stance comes from 2 or even 3 different oppinioned sides but they ironically melt into the same outcome.

But at the end of the day most people forget / ignore, regardless of anything, fanservice still helps normalising public queer affection. And let's be real, most of the stuff in those stage and event shows are that... a show or even a performance! Do you protest at your local theater when they have queer characters kissing? Do you notice how this sounds in a sentence? Yes actors are real people and not characters but especially BL actors & idols still perform stage shows and kind of have a public enertainer persona. You notice how different they are on stage vs. in their personal live streams + nowadays most actors are even very honest about just doing fs for show & fun and often genuine (platonic) affection towards their acting partner but don't pretend to be actual dating (and the ones who do will most likely not lightheartedly come out with it like that... apparently there are exceptions but I have not enough insight on them to judge). You should watch some serious interviews or live stream (translations) of your favs now and then maybe to learn more about them and the industry, they are more than just pretty faces... Actors in just my bubble who talked open about the fanservice topic as far as legally possible at least: JamesSu, Perth Nakhun and I guess we can count Pavel and Nut as well.

What fans make out of it is a whole different story.... and one of the reasons people want to shut down fanservice as a whole. But imagine how lighthearted, fun and easy going this whole thing could be if we didn't had all these toxic naive fans who think every interaction is proof of actors dating (or worse: cheating) in RL. That mindset of "we are BL fans of course we are delulu" is not a joke anymore among some of them. They srsly take pride in that... babes you are part of the problem, stop encouraging it!

Then on the other side, being critical of some of the practices of the industry is one thing but it should not lead into backwards queer censoring... but that's what some are swaying to with their "real people queerbait" agenda or getting the cringes when (samesex) people interact romantically or erotically during live events (that's a bit of a you thing my dears. not necessarily in a queerphobic way but in a purity / shy way and that is a you problem to deal with not anyone elses problem)....

And a lot of people don't even understand or get what most people criticise about fanservice and just jump onto the ban-fanservice train. Without understanding the nuances nor the actual industry circumstances. Like one main argument here isn't even true. Lot of people assume actors get forced into fs. Which is not true (source: one of Perth Nakhuns Q&A vids, the 2. vid i think). BL actors usually know what they get into by entering the industry, decide with eo how much they want to do. Now that can still cause internal personal conflicts like one going over board or not playing enough but that's human miscommunication. Or companies can still be bastards but it's unfair to generalise it over the whole industry when we nowadays have companies who give their actors that freedom.

There are still some points to criticise, definitely. Like I personally dislike how MCs and sponsors sometimes treat actors during events or how fans scream at every little move or glance like crazy.... But the topic is a bit more nuanced (as always in this world) than how most people look at it. I just mean it really always sticks out when you talk with people about their reasons why they are anti fanservice that they just repeat after another with no sources or without actual up to date information or only look at it from one side.

I personally am in the middle. I only like fs when the actors have fun with it and are transparent about it. In the end it comes down to actors consent what they want to give to the audience (reason why it annoys me when people write "i feel like i am interrupting something here / am intuding their privacy" the actors consented! they want you to watch if you want to see it! consent babes! it is fine)

(when i see someone coming in with "but Krist is a homophobe" I will bite you. I am not even his fan and already researched what happened back then when I first saw those accusations when I got into BL 2021ish. It is really not that hard to look up the source and reports of people who were live pressent at the time to understand what went down back then. Ya know instead of believing rumors that twist and lie for rage bait)

[styrofauxm]

So you know that thing that's floating around about Vivziepop not wanting to ruin people's fun by confirming Alastor's romantic orientation?

I was going to make a venty (untagged) post about how that's kinda queerbait-y* and arophobic. But then I was like "you know what, I should check the source because I don't remember the exact quote."

And it turns out I never actually saw the exact quote. Nor did anyone talking about it bother to include the context. And while I don't think either removes the queerbait-y* or arophobic aspects of the statement, they certainly make it better than it initially seemed to me.

Here's the stream (linked to the proper place): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5ONxBZoR0A&t=3793s

And here's a loose transcript (it cuts out some less relevant statements in-between but loses almost no context as far as I could tell): https://www.reddit.com/r/HazbinHotel/comments/mle06e/alastors_sexual_orientation_aromanticasexual/

*I am keeping the actual word on the shelf, I just don't know a better one to use here. I think what she said is SIMILAR to queerbaiting but is NOT queerbaiting.

With the queerbait-y stuff, it still maintains the "aromantic people, tune in, this character may or may not be aromantic. We'll tell you eventually, just keep watching!"

With the arophobia, it still maintains the prioritization of shipping over representation, and treats aromanticism as a subsect of asexuality at best, and as flat out not an orientation at worst.

I don't think either is as bad as my original perception, but they certainly aren't good. And keep in mind, this was 3 years ago, any number of things about her beliefs could have changed in any which way since then.

But what gets me is that Vivziepop absolutely did not say that everyone should just let everyone else have their fun. What she said was to have fun and be respectful of his orientation and the people that are represented by him. She says that multiple times.

I'm not feeling this generous, but I guess you could say the fandom had some kind of Mandela Effect over what she actually said.

I think it's more likely that a few people, maliciously or not, spread the incorrect paraphrase without context, and the rest of the fandom, reasonably, believed them.

Anyway the lesson here is check your sources before you contribute to misinformation on the internet.

[straightbaittournament]

(shaking, through tears) may the best bait win! propaganda under the cut:

mulder and scully:

Infamously treated and teased by showrunners + writers like how a gay couple would be baited and like a gay couple in general, although eventually they do kiss and have a son (although that falls through and they become kind of divorced)

during the entire original run of the show i'm pretty sure chris carter would have said they never had a romantic relationship (they had a baby without ever having had sex!) however in the revival their sort of ambiguous What Are We deal was made a lot more explicit so feel free to veto based on these grounds LITERALLY INVENTED 'SHIPPING'. YOU'RE WELCOME

while i'm... pretty sure they get together eventually (i've only watched a bit of the x-files), from what i've heard they invented the term "shipping" because of people arguing over whether they would/should be romantically involved, so i think they should be included, for fandom history reasons if nothing else

they are a man and a woman who don't get together until ridiculously late but are hilariously devoted to one another, clingy, self-sacrifice-y, and also Forehead Kisses

They’re together but they’re not they love each other but barely know each other

clara and twelve:

their relationship is heavily romantic coded, but is never explicitly confirmed as romantic or not. the queerbait thing of teasing them on socials but never paying them off in canon applies here! also secret love confessions by way of double entendre or omission

they "arent romantic" but obviously they are

They are a man (I guess?) and a woman never get together but physical contact is filmed with such tension, there's jealousy with one member's significant other, "do you think I care for you so little that betraying me would make a difference," "I'm changing history to save Clara," "run you clever boy and be a Doctor," "people like you and me, we should say things to one another," "I'll be the judge of time," "If you love me in any way..." okay these all have context but trust me it's Insane

They never get to be together and in their last episode together, Clara presumably confesses her love to him and WE DONT EVEN SEE IT. like immediately after he gets his memory wiped.

[afurtivecake]

hate that kevriko is a rarepair, i really feel like so many of their interactions are so juicy and full of worthwhile discussions that for some reason nobody wants to indulge

i def think that rikos anger at jean was less bc of him LOOKING at kevin and more so that he was looking at KEVIN

anyway if you have thoughts and feelings to share, pls do

thank you for this ask<3 also you're so right. we don't talk about kevriko as a ship enough when there's a lot to think about there. (i am guilty of this too)

the interesting thing about kevriko is that they're almost exactly like the kind queerbaiting couple you'd have seen in late 2000's media. (1) there were so many shows with characters that had an undeniably deep and intimate connection with each other that was also really fucked-up and we, the audience, were expected to believe these were the actions of fully heterosexual men who, at best, hated each other. yeah, that's what nora has effectively created with kevriko.

i'm not saying kevriko is intentional queerbaiting; i just mean the ambiguous and open-ended nature of their relationship lends itself well to speculations about what they really felt for each other.

i'm guessing people don't ship kevriko much because it is very much a toxic and abusive relationship made worse by the horrible environment they were living in. i think there is a lot of reluctance to engage with the topic of textual abusive queer relationships. i think people are drawn to the idea of nice, healthy, wholesome queer relationships in media and shy away from ships that can't fit into that mold. which is interesting because that's not at all different from how the general public treated people who shipped those kinds of canonically straight characters with antagonistic, homoerotic relationships back then. there was always this sense of like, "why would you want to ship that when there are all these other better ships available?" why would you want to imagine a gay relationship when it's so bad and toxic when there are other more socially acceptable ships available? only real difference is that, back then "socially acceptable" strongly meant "straight". i guess what i'm saying is that it feels like people would rather kevin and riko be straight and not at all emotionally attached because that would make their relationship straightforward and palatable. it would frame them as captor and prisoner longing for escape, rather than something horrible and ugly and uncomfortably involved.

but ok let's just talk about the elephant in the room: was riko obsessively in love with kevin and repressing it?

yeah. probably. yes. in tgr, it's pretty clear that riko was insanely possessive of kevin and responded jealously whenever another man dared to get close to kevin. "but was it love?" i hear people ask. or was it selfishness, obsession, and codependency? does it really matter what you call it? it amounts to the same thing in the end.

if we can accept that andreil's relationship doesn't fit into the traditional mold of "romantic relationship" but is still intimate and loving nonetheless, then we should be able to accept that kevriko doesn't fit into the traditional mold of "abusive romantic relationship" but is nonetheless, built around emotional involvement and intimate partner abuse.

lots of works show these same aspects of an abusive relationship, but what aftg does that feels different is that it puts focus on the "relationship" aspect. simply put, aftg doesn't try to eliminate the emotional attachment kevin and riko have to each other in order paint a more stark line between victim and abuser as if attempting to signal to the audience the writer knows this relationship is Bad and Irredeemable. aftg acknowledges that being in an abusive relationship requires a heavy emotional investment on both sides.

it took emotional investment for riko to hold kevin that close and it took emotional investment for kevin to choose to stay for as long as he did. yes, there is also an element of one party having the power to enforce a relationship on their terms. but if it were as simple as seeing the power balance imbalance and thinking, "i don't have to put up with this shit anymore!" like an employee quitting their shitty job and shitty boss, then beating riko and the ravens in the finals would have fixed kevin. and we can see in tgr that it very much has not. there isn't an absence of feeling in abusive relationships. there isn't an absence of desire to be together. that's what makes extricating oneself from the them so hard.

riko was undoubtedly deeply attached to kevin and built all his future dreams around the idea that kevin would be at his side exactly where he wants him to be. he could not let go of kevin even after kevin left and he continued to act as if kevin was going to come back to him as soon as he destroyed the foxes and everything would be back on track. in a similar way, kevin has trouble letting go of riko after riko dies. we see him in tgr still pursuing excellence (exy-llence?) and fixating hard on the dream of playing in the olympics as if he's determined to carry him and riko's dream to the finish line on his own - to prove that he could do what riko could never could, alone. denying the awful emotional aspect of kevin and riko's relationship ignores the fact that being together fucked them up and that kevin is still left trying to disentangle himself from that mess.

(1) the example that springs to mind is Heroes. does anyone remember the show Heroes? sylar/mohinder, you'll always be famous to me. basically, sylar is a serial killer who is able to steal the superpower of the people he kills and mohinder is the researcher studying superpowers and this serial killer. there's one insane scene where sylar calls mohinder in distress and says shakily, "i think i did something bad," and mohinder, without missing a beat, shoots back, "you're a serial killer; you don't get the benefit of the doubt." and then there's a bit of back and forth where sylar is pleading with mohinder to just help him somehow because mohinder is the only one he can trust. and we were supposed to believe those two were heterosexual men who did not like each other at all. yeah that's how bad queerbaiting was back then.

[edwin-paynes-bowtie]

I have so many wonderful things to say about XO Kitty season 2. And I will say them. All my underlying complaints really stem back to a single issue, but I feel like right now I have to word-vomit the Problem because it's, like, tickling my brain.

I do not like the way queer characters, plotlines, and concepts were handled in XO Kitty season 2. At all.

To be clear - this show is not queerbaiting. It is about a bisexual girl (Kitty) who ends up with a boy who is a perfect match for her (Minho).

What does bother me is that after the Kitty/Yuri kiss and its fallout, Kitty's queerness is never addressed again. Not even in passing! Praveena declares she's no longer interested in her, and we never hear anything about girls or bisexuality surrounding Kitty again.

I also really do not appreciate the way that Yuri was treated. Yuri, a main character and a main love interest in season one, underwent some insane character assassination this season. All of her sharp personality traits were immediately gone, and she was made a very flat side character right off the bat. But the nail in the coffin was her cheating on Juliana with Kitty. What the fuck? Juliana was her every thought last season. She was miserable without her. She went to great lengths to talk to her and to get her back to KISS. But the second Juliana is back, and their relationship is generally good!!! ...She cheats on Juliana, her girlfriend of a year, with Kitty? And for what!? She gets completely sidelined after that! She and Kitty are hardly even friends anymore! So they broke Yuri and Juliana up for nothing, and ruined Yuri's character for nothing.

Also, it SUCKS that Yuri has no friends, no girlfriend, and now her family's being sued and she lost her money. The show just kept beating her down. It was lowkey ridiculous.

The only good thing I'll say about that kissing whole situation is that Kitty wasn't exclusive with Praveena. I don't really think Kitty did anything morally awful, and we narrowly avoided the cheating bisexual trope - even if I didn't love it.

I also want to talk about Juliana. She was one of my favorite characters in the season, and the way that she just totally dropped off the grid was mad. She and Yuri broke up, we saw her like three more times, and at the end she's in a weird pair the spares relationship with Praveena. It gave the vibes of "hey.... they're both lesbians.... they should know each other." Not great.

I also personally really did not like Q's new love interest. He was juvenile and a complete and utter asshole. He underwent very little character growth. He and Florian both suck and Q could do better, but he's been the quintessential GBF trope since day 1 and I guess can't branch out into his own character.

I have to wonder what the fuck the writers were thinking when they botched every queer storyline this badly.

My theory is that the writers saw Netflix cancel tons of top-performing queer shows (like my beloved Dead Boy Detectives) and panicked. Then they just removed all traces of queerness as much as they could to avoid cancelation.

But, whether or not that's true, it's very annoying and feels like a massive L for me as a bi woman.

[p0uncivall]

Moominvalley season 4 spoilers!!!

Okay ignoring what was pretty much queerbaiting and the weird lack of Snufkin

I literally couldn’t be happier about Joxter as a character. I’m so bummed about him and Snufkin not meeting, especially when they were teasing that the whole episode, but I loved everything else about him for every moment he was on screen.

I love that he wasn’t just sleepy Snufkin. He had this proper stoner thing going on which genuinely feels like appealing to the amount of weed jokes the fandom makes lmao. This dude is the guy supplying the hattifattiners what they need for their dubstep con raves.

His design has so many cool unique elements, with the darker nose and his more cat shaped eyes. And I love the new details like the patches on his coat.

And the songs he sang? Oh my god. The fact he wrote a song about mymble. Made me think of that one animatic with the song I love you too much.

I like that little my wasn’t made to have a moment where she forgave her mother or everything was sorted out, she’s never made to think that how her mother treats her isn’t unfair.

I said I was going to ignore the queerbaiting but I find it very funny that the first closest thing to an explicit gay relationship in modern moomin was Sniff and Stinky and Mrs Fillyjonk and Mymble. As much as I like Snufmin I never actually thought they’d make it canon as much as it would be nice, I just hoped we’d get more resolution with how Snufkin and Moomin’s relationship was progressing, even just as friends.

It felt like they still very much had the issue of Moomin being too clingy and not understanding Snufkin’s boundaries, and Snufkin trying to push Moomintroll away in response. They just kinda left it there with that. It’s like they feel they got enough Moomin and Snufkin last season so now it’s time to ignore them.

I very much liked how much Snork was included and that they continued to show his neurodivergent traits without it becoming his whole character.

This is a very out of order rant because I’m tired but going back to Joxter and Snufkin not meeting, and Little My basically figuring it out. It’s at least nice to know they’re not just completely ignoring the family thing, and that all of them just had no idea. And I imagine their plan is to keep things like that for future series. The thing about Moominvalley is that one of the things drawing viewers back is the inclusion of references and the returns of old characters. And the Moomin franchise is so huge that they’re sure to make another show that they can save those moments and characters for.

I guess my take away is it’s not all it could have been, but that very well could be on purpose, and I’m not afraid that we’ll never have a chance to see these things again.

Implied aromantic Mrs fillyjonk was also wonderful

[absolutebl]

Do you feel like shows that deal with idols not being allowed to date or actors having to hide queerness are a critique of that, or are they using it as a plot device because it’s a handy obstacle for love stories?

To me it reads as a critique because it seems so cruel and unfair to performers. But maybe it’s kind of a *shrug that’s the way it is* to folks actually in Thailand/Korea/Japan.

I have a similar feeling when I see unreasonable parents who expect their offspring to obey no matter what. Are the shows interrogating a cultural norm of unquestioning filial obedience or just using it as a plot point because it’s super relatable to audiences? Probably a bit of both, I guess…

Happy Pride!

Let's rehash BLs and QUEERNESS!!!

I think it depends on the point of view of the show and the perspective of the writer(s) and director(s). Those that have a queer lens are often having a dialogue with the audience on these subjects. Those that don't have any intentionality to their queerness are often using such things as performative plot devices, heart string manipulation, and for the vicarious titillation of a (mostly) straight audience.

So yeah, grey area.

I do have a bunch of stuff on this topic here (quite a bit is older before the big queer-up of the BL genre that has been happening over the last few years - see top trend of 2022) (and here's me talking about normalization in anticipation of this trend).

[tubbytarchia]

Apparently despite the length I somehow did not make my point clear. Nor was it "hatemail" as that other person stated, but I already predicted that given given the double standards of tone interpretation I see here. This is unrelated, but sometimes seeing how you but especially your followers talk about things I disagree with makes me completely reexamine the things I do agree with, and if theyre equally as unflattering an interpretation of other people's opinions and words. If I've also ever used "can't someone have an opinion" as a way to dismiss other opinions.

I wasn't criticizing you for having criticism, or telling you not to analyze things deeper. Nor did I say anything about whether you maintag or not? I follow you for other things I'm not a Lizzie stan who dug too deep and hate you for having your own opinions. I did acknowledge that there are and always will be people who examine things much more shallowly than you or I and so there will always be some work out there that your critique applies to wholeheartedly, because it would be disingenuous not to. There's always going to be people who don't examine the ideas they like too closely. Usually, personally, I find those are people who also heavily project onto the characters so I find myself not nearly as comfortable casually lumping the misogyny card onto them with mcyt, because its their personal passions and experiences projected onto a character that is already much more closely tied to a cc's personal experiences and choices, and for me it falls into a similar vein as how you can't say a real person living their real life is queerbaiting. There's a level of personability and depth, due to, ultimately, being the persona of a real person, to these characters that your critique often ignores where you treat things like theyre a problem of their writing rather than a feature of their character, and the fanworks that incorperate those things.

I was saying that Lizzie does not get boiled down to one note as often as you portray, to where it deserves to be the only thing about her talked about rather than actually talking about her. and that her relationship with Jimmy is not based in misogyny or flattening of her character into "big sister", as their relationship gets boiled down to within these critiques. That the people who complain about such fail to go on to create anything to fill the gaps they supposedly see from their once yearly skim in her tags after a big event that involved not just her, to instead simply complain about thoughts and works that exist not existing. And the way you talk about it feeling dismissive of all of the care and thoughtfulness and fanworks that are more numerous than you portray as existing when talking about her. Your critique feels shallow, is what I mean, viewing things in isolation with no context and premade assumptions about others thoughts and feelings.

I also am not particularly happy with how you talk about the subject of seablings being an empires 1 topic, either, mainly because you talk about it in the exact way that is what I am talking about as hypocritical. Many things are elaborations based on events of previous series incorperated into a larger narrative and dismissal of the way their narratives are connected in secret life as misogyny and a detriment to their characters is picking and choosing that this specific history between these two characters is outdated and not as relevant even while utilizing events and dynamics that happened in tandem without question.

You can have your opinions and critiques, I'm not trying to take that away from you and I know it won't change your mind so I'm not trying to I guess. Especially not while surrounded by people who dismiss other opinions and critiques as hatemail and not as smart and feeding into the idea that someone who disagrees just hates critique in their happy fandom space. I just want to talk aboit my own opinions and how your critique makes me feel, which is that you don't really talk about Lizzie at all except to complain that other people who feel passionately enough about her to create and think about her character don't do so in the way you like. Which I suppose is entirely within your right to do, but you do it so dismissively of any other takes with an entourage of anons declaring your opinion correct and laughing at any other opinion, it's downright frustrating.

I guess this is probably getting too long to be coherent again...

I don't condone what that anon said as although they were undoubtedly referring to you, whose input I don't regard as hatemail, I have tended to receive blatant hate of no substance and didn't think anything of it when replying to it in a casual manner. I would appreciate if there weren't in-fighting between anons for lack of a better word and maybe I should have left that ask unanswered

For that much I'm sorry as I feel like your response has been fuelled by it and you're being very defensive and dismissive. You continue to both make assumptions about me and accuse me, just as you accused me of policing people, which is the only reason I brought up maintagging and reasoned with you why that's not the case. My opinions on my blog are very clearly stated to be just that, and filterable. I can understand that you are genuinely frustrated, which is why I want to give you the time of day and respond to you honestly, as this is the type of engagement I encourage. But if it is genuine criticism or discussion you wish to have, then frankly speaking, you accusing me of being a fake fan because of how you assume I absorb, interpret and create for media, in a way that goes against your belief of doing so correctly (in order to be able to call oneself a fan), which is incredibly subjective, has no place in this conversation and I would hope you have it in you to agree

Additionally, you fault me for levying criticism on the fandom for how they treat a character, because those same fandom goers imprint on those characters. And you don't draw total distinction between character and creator, but I do. I understand people do imprint on characters and especially creators, but please understand that that is not my problem. I think it's absurd to alleviate something of criticism just because of its nature or because of what it means to someone, if that were the case, we should be letting people get away with just about anything including genuinely harmful beliefs and practises, and I don't see why you or anyone else should be able to draw a line in the sand as to what can be criticized and what cannot. Even so, I have done nothing to go out of my way to police these people. If they see and are hurt by the way I speak, as are you, you have all the tools at hand to filter and block me. The same way you might be frustrated by the fact that I do not draw connections between characters and creators - we are inherently different in our interpretation in that, so please just block me if you don't like it instead of trying to explain to me how I'm doing it wrong as opposed to you. The same way you are frustrated that I, as many others in the fandom, don't view Seablings as having relevance outside of ESMP1. It is incredibly invalidating of you to call that train of thought shallow and prop up your own as somehow righteous

I've remained clear about my stances whilst also remaining respectful and as in depth as I think the subject matter warrants. I'm not going to continue to reason with you as to why I think one or the other because I know that you will continue to disagree, and my opinion will remain unchanged. I understand your frustration and I wanted to try and cap this off politely. If you read this as being dismissive or bullying, then I don't know what you expect of me. To reiterate: we are going to have to disagree, and I'm not going to hear you out any longer

[otaqueer]

Post 3- Queer Girl Utena, part 2: Are they going to kiss or...?

WILL THEY WON’T THEY

I would like to start this post by confessing something: The first time I watched Revolutionary Girl Utena, I felt utterly queerbaited. The opening and the second ending were so clear about Utena and Anthy’s relationship, but the TV anime didn’t seem to agree so explicitly.

It didn’t help when the anime gave us moments like these

That being said, after watching the movie, I felt very differently. And then, after learning a bit more about society and yuri that does not occur in Yuri World, where every girl in school likes other girls, I did my first rewatch and everything changed.

It is less usual to see this in soujo, romance or anime in general but their personalities and story are not meant to build their love story, but it is built after the conclusion, after everything changes. The change is necessary for them to love each other.

If we are clearly seeing that they have the chemistry and strong feelings for each other, why are they the way they are and why does their relationship take so much time to flourish? (Ha! Flower joke.)

THE WITCH IN HER COFFIN

Above all, we must take into account that Anthy is a victim of abuse and that is what makes her being the way she is. She seems so passive, so submissive, as if she was not bothered by how bad the world was treating her or by his brother’s abuse. Utena and the viewer ask themselves the same question: Why doesn’t she say something? Why is she pushed to be the Rose Bride? Can she not just walk away? Why doesn’t she seem sad about it.

I will not deny that we get many hints that Anthy is not as passive as she seems behind the scenes (when you are being called a witch for so long, you learn to act like one), but it is also true that, when you are in a coffin it means you are dead, and therefore you cannot move. Sometimes you need to play dead to survive the situation, you need to convince yourself that there is nothing else for you in this world and make yourself be happy with it even if it’s killing you. You turn pain into your home.

The Rose Bride, meant to be used, how could she ever imagine any other situation for herself? Her? Dating Utena? Unthinkable. Not even worth pondering. Even the thought of Utena saving her is unthinkable, even less so when she is having sex with the one who is imprisoning and abusing her. It shows Utena’s weakness, she is a girl at the end of the day, and that is why Anthy does not conceive the possibility of putting herself into Utena’s care in a more serious manner. She cannot save her because she is a girl. A girl, as little free as her, will not save her. It is dangerous for Anthy to put herself in the care of another girl who cannot free her, or so she thinks.

Anthy is not willing to leave her coffin, and that is why she won’t be with Utena.

THE PRINCE IN HER COFFIN

Utena is not free either. She is subjected to the gender roles of what society sees her as and the roles of what she’d like to be, as I talked about in my previous post.

One could argue (Anthy definitely could) that her involvement with Anthy at first was simply an attempt to affirm her identity as prince. A prince who cares and saves princesses. A prince who loves princesses? Well, as I previously stated, no one told her she could be a prince and still kiss other princes, so we expect her to know that she could kiss the princess too? Her primary motive is to win the duels and defend Anthy, and that fills her motivations as prince. That was probably it for the beginning, and it is not hard to guess it very difficult to break, as she might have felt she would lose herself and what she stands for by changing that.

Also, have you noticed? She won’t call Anthy by her first name! There is no consistent theory about why is that, but I think it is related to her noble character: She is defending her, she is respecting her like no one else does. Although the name dynamic changes, not even at the end, I truly do think it is because of her nobility, it is part of her self-fulfilling prince relationship with Anthy, not because of how close or how far she feels about her.

I want to clarify that, although I’m saying that Anthy and Utena’s relationship is fulfilling for Utena’s role, I do not think Utena is using Anthy. But it is involuntary when a relationship with someone validates you, and difficult to leave it behind.

She also had to be greatly groomed by Akio for her to forget her prince, so forgetting her prince voluntarily so she could be with the princess she is defending is out of the question.

At the end of the series, when she is her strongest because she shows and accepts her weaknesses, is when she can truly give Anthy her all and allow herself to love her. Thus, causing the revolution.

UTENANTHY: MOVIE VERSION

The movie finally scratched what had been itching the whole series: They get to love each other! And kiss!!

While the movie is a reimagination of the story, I cannot think of it and the TV series separately. I think movie Anthy and movie Utena exist because of everything they went through in the TV series, in some cosmic way.

Akio is dead from the beginning, so the system is not as pressing, so they can love each other without any restriction. 

Also, what happens in the movie is really anti Class-S stuff. In case you are not familiar with Class-S, it was the predecessor of shoujo and yuri. This genre explored the things girls would live, like sentimentalism and sexuality. These stories would almost always take place at schools, where girls could develop feelings for other girls and have relationships with them, but they would alwats part ways when they graduated, as those sapphic relationships were considered as practice for the men they would marry.

It was a really nice surprise that, in Utena’s TV anime and the movie, they are free to get together at the end, when they leave school. Well, in the anime it might be a little more complicated than that, since we don’t really know where Utena is, but Anthy is free now to go look for her and to want to be with her and escape her own chains so they can be together.

In the movie, they literally escape school and their chains to be together. They don’t belong there, they belong together in the real world, I cannot stress this enough. That felt like such a win.

So, taking into account everything that is going on in the TV series and how the movie takes it, I hereby declare Utenanthy canon from beginning to end.

CANON AT FIRST SIGHT

We cannot speak about queer love in Revolutionary Girl Utena without talking about Juri. She is in love with Shiori and she is her weakness, which allows the dueling system to push her to participate. Not really much to say about a painful sapphic love story of unrequited love, but it is nice to see a canon lesbian right when you are crying on the floor wondering why Utena and Anthy are not kissing. I really do wish we could see more about Juri and her backstory apart from Shiori to have a proper analysis about this queer character.

This was my second post about Utena, which is my favourite anime (including the movie, and the manga too, but it lacks queerness to be discussed here). I think I left a lot of topics untouched, since Utena has a lot of readings and it is hard to cover everything, so feel free to say if there is something you saw that I didn’t!

I will probably write about Utena again in the future as well.

Sources:

https://davedalessiowrites.wordpress.com/2019/09/02/character-analysis-utena-tenjou/

https://ohtori.nu/analysis/04_azusa_anthy_mirror.htm

It was revealed to me in a rewatch.

[bbgianstan]

omg your reply about how ian and anthony were one of the only duos that never really much into the whole "queerbaiting thing" like other youtubers, it's so true. Like a lot of people say that now they do but honestly is still very like not that much compared to how it was in the 2010s with other youtubers. I also always saw that tension with ian and anthony and anthony has admitted that he wasn't that affectionate because they knew each other since hey were 12 so he was always reluctant to be affectionate with Ian because he had learned to keep his distance because of how middle school was for them. What I do think it's interesting is that Ian actually seemed a bit taken back by that answer, he said that he just felt weird holding hands with anyone wether it was boy/girl he didn't care, it wasn't about gender it was just that Ian felt that, holding hands wasn't platonic at all. Idk it's interesting, I guess a lot of that weird tension but also just them having personal issues.

Right? They were always more the "no homo" type of friends, like you say, Anthony saying it always felt weird to do something as innocent as holding Ian's hand, in particular, is really telling to me. And let's not say they don't play into the gay act. They do. But with other people. Iancorn anyone? Ian/any other man that isn't Anthony? Anthony/Joven? And that tension between them only got more evident as time passed, affecting even the relationships with the other's gfs at one point. So whenever they do something considered gay now, I go a bit crazier, because it doesn't feel like an act. It feels like they are slowly feeling more and more comfortable to show each other an affection that they always sort of held back from, but secretly always wanted to give each other. Like Anthony baby talking Ian, for example. It comes out so naturally now that it gives me impression that he always wanted to do it. I feel like they always wanted to treat each other more affectionately, but again, that weird tension, which is the real reason I ship them, held them back.

[olderthannetfic]

So, a creator for a canon whose fandom I am begrudgingly in - I stick to fic and avoid people-intense places due to some toxicity issues - recently clarified that as he modeled a character's behaviors on an aroace, not-interested-in-sex friend of his, he views them as aroace (with the same non-interest in sex).

Fandom is unable to be normal about queer rep. You can guess what followed: accusations of queerbaiting. This drives me nuts for a number of reasons. One, the show is done and was done over a decade ago. It's not baiting anyone to tune in. It's over. Two, this was not said to boost merch or get cred with the fandom or something. Someone asked why the character never got a love interest or references to past romances. The creator answered. And three, perhaps most importantly, queerbaiting is when the queerness is not canonical. You can absolutely see the queerness in the character and how they're written, to the point where even conservative dickweeds in the fandom can't find anything that contradicts the character being aroace.

Hence my ultimate question here, which is why are people mad at this? I'm aroace and I'm thrilled. This character has a whole happy, contented life where no one treats him like a freak or like he needs sex and romance to be happy. He's got character development, he's got an arc, he has best friends - the writers didn't treat him differently than any other character. To me that seems ideal. He was written as well as everyone else. He has as much of a rich interior life as everyone else. And we didn't have to see any jackassery from other people pushing him to be "normal".

I know fandom getting mad at queer rep has always been a thing but I don't get it. But since you're very well-versed in fandom's behaviors and I'm not, maybe you can shed some light on this? I see some people going "but this isn't every ace's lived experience!", which is true, it's just... he never said it was? He just showed a single character's lived experience, no one ever said, "this is the epitome of what it is to be aroace!"

I don't know when this idea sprung up that rep that doesn't show all possible ways a person can be a queer identity is bad but I don't think it's productive. Instead of being happy for what we have fandom just gets angry. What's the point of it all?

--

Oh, come now: I think you know what most of the objections are really about if you think about it:

And, in general, the less minority rep there is for a given minority, the more people nitpick what does exist to death.

[epickiya722]

Random ask....Do you think anime like Free, Sk8, Jeweler Richard and Yuri on Ice are queerbaiting or at least have semi canon couples? I mean I love those anime series and my fav otps are from those series, but what do you think? Also, why do you think shounen series like bnha, haikyuu, and naruto has the largest shipping fandom compare to canon romantic BL series?

Hmmm...

Okay, off bat, I'll say that "queerbaiting" is a lose term to me. People use it so much that most of the time I feel like they say it just to say it. (Not directed at you, Anon.)

And I actually never watched Jeweler Richard. I've heard of it, but I didn't watch it... because I forgot about it. I also, never watched all of Free!

Now to answer the first bit... I'm leaning towards "no" here.

Queerbaiting to me is if the promise of some queer rep happening is marketed just to draw in the audience and then the people who made said show switches it up at the end like "oops sorry, actually these characters are totally straight and they're dating people of the opposite sex" and erase all that rep or just never touched on it.

Yuri On Ice, I wouldn't consider it queerbaiting because we get some same-sex romance. It happened. Even if the gay romance in there was used in marketing, it still happened. Sure, it did lure in the audience, but promises were not broken. Yuri and Viktor are a thing.

Same for SK8, I don't consider it queerbaiting either.

BONES never promised us that Reki and Langa were going to be a thing by the end of season 1. We also gotta remember that SK8 isn't a strictly romance. It's a SPORTS anime just like YOI. So the show focused more on skateboarding and the purpose of it for the characters than actual romance because it's not necessary.

It's why I really disliked how some people treated the ending as if it was the worse thing in the world. Maybe it's just me, but I didn't get mad at it because I just wanted my boys happy and skating together again.

Just because Reki and Langa didn't kiss, it didn't mean that we were queerbaited. They weren't promised to be a couple. Surely implied, maybe yeah, but explicitly promised? No.

Also, just because a couple doesn't kiss at the end doesn't mean they're not canon. A ship doesn't have to kiss to be canon!

Kida and Milo didn't kiss at the end of Atlantis: the Lost Empire, but guess what? People were aware they're a couple by the end of it. They held hands and that was it.

Kissing isn't the only romantic gesture. There's hugging, cuddling, holding hands, words and even jumping in front of someone to protect them.

And just like how all that can be romantic, it also can be platonic, too. It depends on the context of how that action or those words are being used to show romance or just platonic feelings.

We really don't know if a relationship is a canon romantic one unless it's confirmed.

Back to SK8, at best, the relationship between Reki and Langa is an explicit close one. They trust each other, they want to skate together, they're comfortable around each other, they are friends.

And with a season 2 apparently coming, Reki and Langa may just happen. It was probably built up the way it was for a chance to make it canon, just in case they could do a second season. But just in case they couldn't, they ended it on a safe note, let the audience interpret how Reki and Langa feel about each other but made it clear that they are indeed close.

Now for the second part!

I think those animes have the largest shipping fandoms over BL series because they are some of the most popular animes. A lot of romantic series slide over the radar because series like BNHA and Naruto have a wider reach. There's games, cons where the VAs show up, movies, collabs, etc. They're also the "less risky" series.

People wouldn't clutch their pearls if someone says "Oh this anime is about superheroes" or "this anime is about ninjas".

However, if you say "Oh, this is about a romance between two boys", you're probably going to get someone homophobic.

I also figure because even without gender or sexuality involved, people don't care for an actual romance anime. With a romance, it's like... because it is a romance you know who is going to be with who. You can be happy with the choices, but maybe the thrill isn't there. You know the clichés and whatnot. The characters are the same characters you see in any romance.

However, let's say with BNHA. There's a thrill to shipping... I'll take DabiHawks off the shelf for this. There's a thrill because DabiHawks, it's a variety to it. You don't get the "boy next door" or "the better guy but not the choice". You get two enemies that fans turn into lovers in their fics. People dig the enemies to lovers trope and characters like Hawks and Dabi have fans drawn into the series. They're "cooler" than the male love interest of a romance.

And fanworks are there to create something that you can't possibly get in canon.

Some people may feel this: what's the point of writing a fic of a ship that is already canon?

[cblgblog]

Hello, hello 🤗

For the violence ask game could you please do: 6,8,16,18. 😊

My friend is back, yay!!!

which ship fans are the most annoying?

As a whole? Stuckies, oh my god. I know there’s a couple outliers here, on this blog, who might see this and Stucky’s your jam, and if you’re still here that means you probably mind your own business and quietly roll your eyes at most of my shipping content. Not talking to you guys. Talking to Stuckies who have entirely fanon dynamics/interpretations of Steve and Bucky and their relationship, but treat that as canon. Talking to the ones who hate on female characters for…existing, I guess. The ones who call you homophobic if you don’t share their ship, and especially the ones who have no fucking clue what actual queerbaiting is.

common fandom opinion that everyone is wrong about

Iron Man 3. The Mandarin twist (sounds like a cocktail name) was brilliant, fight me.

you can't understand why so many people like this thing (characterization, trope, headcanon, etc)

Pretty much everything to do with fanon! Bucky and canon! Tony. Just, everything. The whole thing. Both of them. All of it.

It’s absolutely criminal that the fandom has been sleeping on…

Stegginelli (Steve Rogers/Peggy Carter/Angie Martinelli). But of course I’m gonna say that because I want more content for my specific fixation that like 2.5 other people care about. So get on that, someone, please.