#utena vs saionji

[utenarevolusionaria]

[the-malfunctioning-somnambulist]

Just finished the Black Rose musical and survived (barely)

One question:

WHY THE FUCK DID THEY HAVE TO MAKE WAKABA'S DUEL HURT SO MUCH

[greenhairandpronouns-tournament]

The Green Hair and Pronouns Tournament Semifinals, Match 2

[moistvonlipwig]

i don't consider the utena movie to be canon to the show (imo it is just another version of the story like the manga and, also like the manga, is infinitely inferior) but i ESPECIALLY dislike touga's backstory in the movie and how everyone insists that we should read show!touga with that backstory just because one of the writers said they intended to put it in the show. like ok but they DIDN'T. and frankly. i'm sorry. it's a ridiculous backstory. his bio parents sold him to his adoptive father as a sex slave??? utena is a show full of realistic and hard-hitting discussion about sexual abuse and THAT'S the goofy-ass backstory y'all want to be canon??? come on.

that said i have conflicting feelings on whether or not i think show!touga was ever sexually abused as a young child (by a teacher, not by his adoptive father, i don't think that makes any sense for what little we know of the kiryuus). on the one hand i don't think it actually gives any texture to his relationship with nanami whatsoever; everything in rgu suggests that he started grooming her as a teenager as a result of akio's influence (which, we should remember, started before the show began, even if it hadn't become sexually abusive in nature yet). giving him a random extra experience with csa at someone else's hands does literally nothing for that relationship.

otoh i actually DO think it makes his relationship with saionji more interesting. because saionji, even when they're young, is so very convinced that touga is more 'adult' than he is, that he Knows Something saionji doesn't, that he has access to special wisdom/power that saionji does not. and there is something so poignant and tragic and fitting about the idea that the thing baby!saionji saw in baby!touga was, unbeknownst to him, touga's status as an abuse victim. because that ties back to the idea of 'specialness' and how all the 'special' characters in rgu are actually just the characters who akio sees as vulnerable and easy to manipulate and victimize, even as the non-'special' characters envy them their 'special' status. and it connects to the broader theme also of what it means to be an adult and have power especially for male characters. baby touga being convinced he has unique insight into how the world works because he was sexually abused and he thinks this insight makes him powerful vs. baby saionji looking at him and seeing this in him and hating him for it because he feels left behind vs. akio believing he is the most grown-up man alive and only he truly understands how the world works because he was victimized and chose to embrace the cynical worldview that in order to escape that victimization he had to be the one victimizing others......like urghhh touga having a history of csa actually does make that trio hit so much harder. i just hate to admit it because i hate to concede an inch to the fucking movie lol

[utenaduelsong-tournament]

Welcome to the Revolutionary Girl Utena Duel Song Tournament!

The premise of this tournament is to determine which duel songs are the most popular among Utena fans on Tumblr!

This is a double-elimination bracket between all the songs that play during duels from various Utena media, in particular the anime, the Adolescence of Utena movie and the Story of the Someday Revolution game.

Each round will go on for a week. After the winners of the first round have been decided, they will face off the byes in the second round's Winners' Bracket and the Losers' Bracket will compete amongst themselves.

The tournament will begin on April 7th, 2025!

Some Clarifications

The tracks included in this tournament are musical compositions with vocals that play in the background during Utena's signature duels. This tournament does not include themes that precede said duels (so no Absolute Destiny Apocalypse, sorry) nor any instrumental tracks. As such, the current lineup of songs is as follows:

When Where Who Which (vs Saionji 1)

Paleozoic within the Body (vs Saionji 2)

Spira Mirabilis Theatre (vs Miki 1)

Angelic Creation, Namely, Light (vs Juri 1)

Last Evolution • Eve of the Evolution Revolution (vs Nanami 1)

Seal Spell (vs Touga 1)

No One Has Anything to Tell (vs Touga 2)

Inhuman Illusory Soul Fusion Magic (vs Kanae)

Utopian Past Tense Incantation (vs Kozue)

Earth as a Character Gallery (vs Shiori)

Conic Absolute Egg Archibras (vs Tsuwabuki)

Magic Lantern Butterfly Moth 16th Century (vs Wakaba)

Transparent Period of Adolescence (vs Keiko)

I Am An Imaginary Living Body (vs Mikage)

Virtual Star Embryology - Duel Chorus (vs Saionji 3)

An Immortal Emperor in a Mundane Universe (vs Miki 2)

The Angel Androgynous (vs Ruka)

I Am All the Mysteries in Creation (vs Juri 2)

The Natural Compatriots' Palace Perspective Book (vs Nanami 2)

Allegory, Allegorier, Allegoriest (vs Touga 3)

Internal Clock, Municipal Orrery (vs Akio)

Duelist ~ Revive! Infinite History of the [Middle Ages] (vs Saionji, Movie)

Rose Naked Body ~ Shura -Flesh Constellation in the αψζ Nebula- (vs Juri, Movie)

Herzen's Head (vs Chigusa, Video Game)

The Inversion of Me and My Room (Duels between the Student Council, Video Game)

[charmtale]

The cars whirring around the arena in the final series of duels.... saionji has nobody in the car. He has no "rose bride". But he is also the first challenger as usual so you don't even notice that it's weird that he is alone. Even though touga was egging him on to fight, it was ultimately for "touga's" (actually akios) true purposes of perpetuating the dueling system, not for saionjis sake at all... touga sure as hell isn't getting in that car he knows is gonna crash, he's posted up with Akio, watching from a distance just like in the very first duel... Akio is letting him think he's distanced from the other non-utena duelists, that he's special and not just another tool, like the others... like Saionji... Akio is not only driving touga and saionji further apart in this moment but pushing both of them specifically towards where he wants them to be, especially touga who he's grooming heavily. and he's doing it in a way where touga thinks it's his decision.

Later in tougas duel saionji is in the car. He's the rose bride for touga, even though touga would not be a rose bride for him. He has tried to talk touga out of dueling but touga won't listen. Touga thinks he's capable of rebelling against Akio and 'saving' utena. he's doing exactly what Akio wants which saionji knows and says... But touga never took saionji seriously and Akio/(the events happening in ohtori all dictated and framed by akio) made saionji look like even more of a dumbass so touga certainly is not listening NOW. All saionji can do is try and help touga along this doomed path... but he can't bear to watch it. touga not being there for saionji but wanting to watch him fail vs. saionji being there for touga but not wanting to watch him fail

[bi-hop]

my thoughts on rgu ep 2

and we're back to watching rgu! my thoughts so far can be found here.

it's funny and cute how those girls fawn over utena. no further thoughts, I just enjoy when that happens in yuri

I was so fucking worried that Wakaba wouldn't want to talk to Utena anymore after All That. I think Utena did the duel for a good reason but it's not like Wakaba asked her to. but nope, that wasn't the point of all that. it's okay, girl, you're better than Saionji's abusive ass anyway

... is the student council a doomsday cult?

you'd think for a group trying to 'bring revolution to the world' or whatever, they'd be more comfortable with a chaos agent added to their game LMAOOO anyway I'm pretending I understand what the fuck is going on with the letters but I don't <3

current working theory: End of the World is a supernatural force guiding them to achieve ends on the material plane. source? I have none. do not tell me what's going on or I will scream at the top of my lungs and embarrass us all

I had the feeling Anthy would be in the dorm but her writing her name underneath Utena's because her placement was an afterthought is... cute... kinda heartwrenching...

also is Anthy meant to look like a housewife? they're really hammering home the patriarchal nature of engagement and marriage here, and we haven't even gotten to another duel

speaking of their situation... while Anthy being like "you dress like a boy because you like to and I do the role as a Rose Bride because I like to" is an interesting conversation to have, I don't know if I believe it. I'm not claiming Utena's reasoning for dressing the way she does is false, I just also don't think it's the full story considering how she was also inspired to dress a certain way by a figure in her past. As for Anthy though, I do think it's false. I think she certainly believes what she's saying but the idea that she just naturally enjoys being subservient (cooking, cleaning) and being an object (more on that later) does not seem organic or 'true' to her.

my girlfriend wants a Chu-Chu plushie... ruh roh

okay back to the duels. I was already thinking she'd object to further duels because the one she partook in was exclusively for the benefit of Wakaba and she has no interest in the power plays over the Rose Bride. she doesn't even know about what they're fighting for, right? so why would she care

god, Saionji is such an abusive ex. I mean, obviously, but wow. I do think the situation is worsened by the fact that the duels confer a sense of ownership over Anthy, but the entitlement... the way he feels like she's betrayed him when he's the one who lost while also having THE ADVANTAGE? rotating him calling her shameless... Saionji-senpai vs Utena-sama... hm

I honestly didn't really notice the castle at the top of the sky when I was watching episode 1, so now the dialogue about entering it makes sense lmao

Utena claiming not to care about Anthy's situation but then immediately getting into the Sword of Dios rite and subconsciously moving to protect the rose even at the potential risk to her... yeah okay. Even Saionji calls her out on it lmao

final thoughts on the way Anthy is rendered an object to be possessed and owned but the way Saionji literally talks about her and the Sword of Dios in the same breath as 'glory' rather than, you know, Anthy being a person he cares for says it all. Her worth is only in the sense of possessing the power of Dios (whatever that means)

... is the prince Dios??? is he dead? what the fuck.

.... is Dios End of the World?!??!!? I'm so confused

Next episode is a ball episode and I'm excited for that one. I love balls, I love intrigue, I love messes.

This episode was good though, even if the pace felt different than the first episode. I think my central interest so far in the series is unraveling the mystery of what the fuck is going on at this school (the student council being powerful enough to make kids vanish is so funny btw), but I'm also deeply invested in Anthy. her passivity in the face of everything is alarming and I just want to understand it. how much of it is facade? how much of it is genuine conditioning? I want to know!!!

[animefeminist]

Chatty AF 200: Revolutionary Girl Utena Watchalong – Part 1

We’re celebrating 200 episodes! And what better way than for mega Utena fan Vrai to talk Cy and Chiaki through their very first viewing of the series?

Episode Information

Date Recorded: October 29th, 2023 Hosts: Vrai, Cy, Chiaki

Episode Breakdown

0:00:00 Intros 0:04:02 Past experience 0:10:08 Utena in modern culture 0:12:26 Series info 0:17:55 Favorite character 0:19:20 Sub vs Dub 0:25:18 Abuse of Anthy 0:32:30 Saionji 0:35:31 Incest 0:41:53 Learning how to watch Utena 0:46:44 Experience with Ikuhara 0:50:32 Utena’s gender and sexuality 0:56:47 Outro

Further Reading

Empty Movement / @empty-movement

Vrai’s Utena Episode Analyses (with spoilers)

Dear Brother Watchalong

[number1villainstan]

hnnnngrh an RGU Meta Idea has me in a chokehold so bear with me while i brainvomit about saionji and his masculinity vs the ideal of 'prince' and how it plays into the power hierarchies ohtori sets up

he's the very first antagonist we encounter, right? literally our first impression of him is "he hit that poor defenseless girl! that he was supposed to be dating!!! what's wrong with him!!!!" and then he rejects wakaba's love letter and utena duels him and the show kicks off. our very first impressions of him in the very first episode are that he's mean, he's cruel, he's inconsiderate, even that he's a brute. that--and this part is important--he is Masculine In A Bad Way. in ohtori everything is tied up in gender, and saionji is assigned the labels of 'man' and 'masculine', and so when he does bad things he is doing bad things as a man, right? he is, of course, hurting people, but more importantly to my point he is not performing manhood in an acceptable way. his masculinity is somehow corrupt or lacking or Wrong. in this way utena's victory over saionji in the first duel isn't just a triumph of "good" over "evil", it's a triumph of specifically utena's Good Masculinity (protective, sympathetic, princely) over saionji's Bad Masculinity (cruel, inconsiderate, not princely). rgu doesn't give a specific name to Bad Masculinity like it does to Good Masculinity (prince), Good Femininity (princess or bride), or Bad Femininity (witch) (possibly because akio is metaphorically the one behind the camera and doesn't want to draw attention to the idea of Bad Masculinity in a way that might allow women a legitimate advantage over men, possibly because outside of rgu there's no corresponding specific fairytale role for Bad Masculinity) but it's still there and, more importantly, it's still being used to uphold the hierarchies and illusions of ohtori

because if we go back to the idea of Good vs Bad Masculinity, and then we take the rest of the show into account, we see that Good Masculinity isn't 'good' because it helps people or reduces harm, but because it upholds the systemic hierarchies and dichotomies of Ohtori. the role of 'prince,' the term for and model of Good Masculinity, is inherently a limiting one for both the 'prince' himself and the 'princesses' he saves. which makes that first duel no longer straightforwardly a positive thing, but among other things a reinforcement of those same harmful hierarchies and dichotomies.

and of course saionji isn't actually the archetype of Bad Masculinity (which i want to call the 'brute', but i'm not sure i want to dive into the racial/imperialistic connotations of 'brute' vs 'prince' in this post) that he's presented as in the first episode. he's a character in his own right, and throughout the series we see that this first impression we got is, while not entirely wrong, at best a surface-level reading of saionji and the roles he plays in the narrative. and what illustrates this tension between impression and reality best is how he acts when wakaba's keeping him in her apartment: as the essay Fight/Flight, Rest/Relaxation by Giovanna points out, possibly the only time that saionji is every truly happy or relaxed is when he's staying with wakaba--in other words, when we see him outside the systems of ohtori. of course, that happiness isn't totally pure either, because wakaba is using saionji as her Shining Thing so that she can go from the non-special side of one of Ohtori's dichotomy to the special side, because unlike saionji at that point wakaba is still participating in those same systems. and yet. when working inside the systems of ohtori saionji is cruel, uncaring, rude, mean. outside the systems of ohtori saionji is happy, relaxed, straightforward and honest and genuine and kind, even.

and in the end that's the key, isn't it? now we understand his behavior in the first episode not as caused by his being a Bad Person. there are no Bad People in RGU, save perhaps akio. no, now we understand his behavior here as a kid, lashing out and hurting people because he's hurting, because he lives in a system in which violence is presented as the solution, because no one taught him how to manage his own emotions and he has no access to or knowledge of that information. because he's a kid growing up in a system that turns his emotions and his straightforwardness against him because they're a threat to that same system. saionji is assigned the archetype of Bad Masculinity not because he hurts people but because his native personality threatens the system. and when that same system begins to repress those innate parts of himself, when he's angry and in pain, the system teaches him to lash out and make other people hurt like he hurts, reinforcing the emotional isolation, reinforcing his pain, reinforcing the roles the system imposes on him and the shallow image those roles project to other people. he's angry and miserable because he's isolated by the system, the system teaches him to lash out and push people away, people respond to that by not getting close which reinforces his isolation. the cycle continues, one gear among many, revolution after revolution after revolution and nothing changes.

but there's hope. there's a glimmer of another path here, and it lies again in that contradiction. the cycle is one of violence; it takes work to maintain ignorance. outside of those cycles, the systems of ohtori, saionji is no longer bound to that path, no longer cast as the Bad Masculine. when he's living with wakaba, all that anger and pain disappears, almost, and he flourishes. if he can leave the system he can break the cycle. a gear fixed in place in a machine turns and turns and turns and gets nowhere; a gear fallen out of the machine can roll forward for a great distance.

all girls are like the rose bride. all boys are like the duelist. and all of us are trapped in this hell of human making...unless we choose, like anthy did, like saionji could have, to walk away.

[utenarevolusionaria]

[thecarnivorousmuffinmeta]

thoughts on saionji x touga (revolutionary girl utena)?

"Is this not confirmed canon?" - Me

Joking aside, it's one of those things that... I feel like is pretty much confirmed canon in the way that a lot of ships in Utena are confirmed canon. All of Saionji's relationships, even his obsession with Anthy, center around Touga and beating him/showing him up/NOTICE ME SENPAI!

It's very clear that his interest in Anthy is about status and control, about simply having the bride, vs. say Miki who certainly believes he's interested in the Anthy he thinks he sees (which is of course an illusion but that's a different story).

And of course, we have such things as them posing dramatically half-naked together in the student council with no explanation where they decide that yes, they are going to do this one good thing.

And it's not that Touga's not into it. Touga has more going on (which of course upsets Saionji) in that he has his... weird relationship with his little sister, his cat/mouse game with Utena (that ultimately ends in an extreme humiliation and oh boy he didn't see that coming did he), his "Oh Akio, teach me how to be a bad bad man", but by the end of the show we see that yes Saionji is his best friend and probably the healthiest relationship he has and not something that would shock me if it's sexual (because everything's fucking sexual in RGU).

So, my thoughts are "... yes?" and like all things in Utena, it is a very interesting dynamic and I hope things work out for those two someday.

[maoist-mizer]

Part 2 list

[greenhairandpronouns-tournament]

The Green Hair and Pronouns Tournament Bronze Match

Both contestants have already lost in the semifinals, and this match is to place them at 3rd or 4th.

[bestutenacharactertournament]

Hi everyone and welcome to the tournament for the best Revolutionary Girl Utena character!!

Notice: characters are anime only.

edit: I didn't think there would be discourse over it, but this is both a better written and you prefer them tournament. You can vote for these characters for whatever reasons you like. I made this because I was curious on who the fandom liked more. So with that in mind, please keep interactions respectful!!

first matches are:

Utena Tenjou VS Juri Arisugawa Anthy Himemiya VS Touga Kiryuu Akio Ohtori VS Tatsuya Kazami Aiko Wakiya VS Wakaba Shinohara Chu-Chu VS Mitsuru Tsuwabuki Kanae Ohtori VS Souji Mikage Keiko Sonoda VS Yuko Ohse Kozue Kaoru VS Shiori Takatsuki Kyouichi Saonji VS Mamiya Chida Mari Hozumi VS Miki Kaoru Nanami Kiryuu VS The three dudes who say "Ooooo" all the time Ruka Tsuchiya VS Tokiko Chida The Shadow girls/drama club VS Prince Dios

Second matches are:

Utena Tenjou VS Miki Kaoru Anthy Himemiya VS Chu-Chu Tatsuya Kazami VS Shiori Takatsuki Wakaba Shinohara VS Souji Mikage Keiko Sonoda VS Nanami Kiryuu Kyouichi Saionji VS Tokiko Chida The Shadows Girls/Drama Club VS Juri Arisugawa

Third matches are:

Utena Tenjou VS Wakaba Shinohara Anthy Himemiya VS Nanami Kiryuu Shiori Takatsuki VS Juri Arisugawa Kyouichi Saonji VS The Shadow Girls/Drama club

this is my first tournament thingy so I hope it goes well 😅

Have fun!

[mlmshipbracket]

ROUND TWO: POLL #6

Touionji art by Chiho Saito

Sasunaru art by Angel Huang on ArtStation

ROUND 2 ALL POLLS [HERE]