#utena vs saionji

[utenarevolusionaria]

[arabhamlet]

i watched adolescence of utena for the first time today and something i really enjoy personally is how it can simultaneously be read as a) a retelling of the anime b) a sequel c) a prequel d) a strange purgatory sequence e) the real world equivalent to the anime’s fairy tale f) the end of a time loop and all of those things hold up depending on what specifically you’re looking at. very fun and appealing to me (time loop and metanarrative enjoyer) to make a followup work in a franchise that entirely eschews fitting into the canon timeline but of course what else can you expect from rgu at this point

[regallibellbright]

Someone poke me at some point to try and cohere my thoughts about G-Witch and Utena and Guel and Saionji and also Shaddiq into something comprehensible. They aren’t gelling but there’s definitely SOMETHING there.

[the-malfunctioning-somnambulist]

Just finished the Black Rose musical and survived (barely)

One question:

WHY THE FUCK DID THEY HAVE TO MAKE WAKABA'S DUEL HURT SO MUCH

[greenhairandpronouns-tournament]

The Green Hair and Pronouns Tournament Semifinals, Match 2

[charmtale]

The cars whirring around the arena in the final series of duels.... saionji has nobody in the car. He has no "rose bride". But he is also the first challenger as usual so you don't even notice that it's weird that he is alone. Even though touga was egging him on to fight, it was ultimately for "touga's" (actually akios) true purposes of perpetuating the dueling system, not for saionjis sake at all... touga sure as hell isn't getting in that car he knows is gonna crash, he's posted up with Akio, watching from a distance just like in the very first duel... Akio is letting him think he's distanced from the other non-utena duelists, that he's special and not just another tool, like the others... like Saionji... Akio is not only driving touga and saionji further apart in this moment but pushing both of them specifically towards where he wants them to be, especially touga who he's grooming heavily. and he's doing it in a way where touga thinks it's his decision.

Later in tougas duel saionji is in the car. He's the rose bride for touga, even though touga would not be a rose bride for him. He has tried to talk touga out of dueling but touga won't listen. Touga thinks he's capable of rebelling against Akio and 'saving' utena. he's doing exactly what Akio wants which saionji knows and says... But touga never took saionji seriously and Akio/(the events happening in ohtori all dictated and framed by akio) made saionji look like even more of a dumbass so touga certainly is not listening NOW. All saionji can do is try and help touga along this doomed path... but he can't bear to watch it. touga not being there for saionji but wanting to watch him fail vs. saionji being there for touga but not wanting to watch him fail

[bi-hop]

my thoughts on rgu ep 2

and we're back to watching rgu! my thoughts so far can be found here.

it's funny and cute how those girls fawn over utena. no further thoughts, I just enjoy when that happens in yuri

I was so fucking worried that Wakaba wouldn't want to talk to Utena anymore after All That. I think Utena did the duel for a good reason but it's not like Wakaba asked her to. but nope, that wasn't the point of all that. it's okay, girl, you're better than Saionji's abusive ass anyway

... is the student council a doomsday cult?

you'd think for a group trying to 'bring revolution to the world' or whatever, they'd be more comfortable with a chaos agent added to their game LMAOOO anyway I'm pretending I understand what the fuck is going on with the letters but I don't <3

current working theory: End of the World is a supernatural force guiding them to achieve ends on the material plane. source? I have none. do not tell me what's going on or I will scream at the top of my lungs and embarrass us all

I had the feeling Anthy would be in the dorm but her writing her name underneath Utena's because her placement was an afterthought is... cute... kinda heartwrenching...

also is Anthy meant to look like a housewife? they're really hammering home the patriarchal nature of engagement and marriage here, and we haven't even gotten to another duel

speaking of their situation... while Anthy being like "you dress like a boy because you like to and I do the role as a Rose Bride because I like to" is an interesting conversation to have, I don't know if I believe it. I'm not claiming Utena's reasoning for dressing the way she does is false, I just also don't think it's the full story considering how she was also inspired to dress a certain way by a figure in her past. As for Anthy though, I do think it's false. I think she certainly believes what she's saying but the idea that she just naturally enjoys being subservient (cooking, cleaning) and being an object (more on that later) does not seem organic or 'true' to her.

my girlfriend wants a Chu-Chu plushie... ruh roh

okay back to the duels. I was already thinking she'd object to further duels because the one she partook in was exclusively for the benefit of Wakaba and she has no interest in the power plays over the Rose Bride. she doesn't even know about what they're fighting for, right? so why would she care

god, Saionji is such an abusive ex. I mean, obviously, but wow. I do think the situation is worsened by the fact that the duels confer a sense of ownership over Anthy, but the entitlement... the way he feels like she's betrayed him when he's the one who lost while also having THE ADVANTAGE? rotating him calling her shameless... Saionji-senpai vs Utena-sama... hm

I honestly didn't really notice the castle at the top of the sky when I was watching episode 1, so now the dialogue about entering it makes sense lmao

Utena claiming not to care about Anthy's situation but then immediately getting into the Sword of Dios rite and subconsciously moving to protect the rose even at the potential risk to her... yeah okay. Even Saionji calls her out on it lmao

final thoughts on the way Anthy is rendered an object to be possessed and owned but the way Saionji literally talks about her and the Sword of Dios in the same breath as 'glory' rather than, you know, Anthy being a person he cares for says it all. Her worth is only in the sense of possessing the power of Dios (whatever that means)

... is the prince Dios??? is he dead? what the fuck.

.... is Dios End of the World?!??!!? I'm so confused

Next episode is a ball episode and I'm excited for that one. I love balls, I love intrigue, I love messes.

This episode was good though, even if the pace felt different than the first episode. I think my central interest so far in the series is unraveling the mystery of what the fuck is going on at this school (the student council being powerful enough to make kids vanish is so funny btw), but I'm also deeply invested in Anthy. her passivity in the face of everything is alarming and I just want to understand it. how much of it is facade? how much of it is genuine conditioning? I want to know!!!

[elevatortherapy]

"The widely-adored Student Council members didn't get along very well. In fact, they had a tense relationship, almost to the point of discord."

objectively the best part of the first light novel is how much the student council all* hate each other's guts so i made a little compilation for anyone who doesn't feel like reading it <3

*juri & miki are buddies :) also touga derives enjoyment from being hated so i'm not sure to what extent he really hates the others back lol

juri vs saionji:

1) "His swordsmanship was his only strong point."

2) "A 'mistake'... is that really all it was?" Arisugawa Juri spoke softly, but still loud enough for Saionji to hear.

"What!?"

"You lost because you're so infatuated with our mysterious Rose Bride. It's made you rusty."

"Interesting. Why don't we test that theory?" Saionji said, bristling in response to Juri's criticism. Touga made no move to stop them. On the contrary, he looked amused at the situation, a smile playing about his lips.

saionji vs touga:

1) "What's normal varies from person to person. For instance, why don't you try to unravel these mysteries, best friend?"

Saionji, the target of Touga's words, glared at him with undisguised distaste.

2) "The two of them had been childhood friends, but now they got along terribly. Or, more accurately, Saionji harbored a deep one-sided hatred of Touga."

miki vs touga:

1) "He stopped writing, and glared at Touga."

2) "Touga-sempai! Did you... is this one if your plots!?"

"I don't know anything about it. It's 'The Ends of the World's doing."

"You liar.

juri vs touga:

1) "Don't get cocky, Touga," Juri said grumpily, from across the table.

2) "Touga, you're full of bullshit. I doubt you've said a sincere word in your whole life."

"My, such harsh words." Far from sounding hurt, Touga seemed like he was enjoying himself.

3) [afterword] Manga Juri is in love with Touga, but Novel Juri doesn't even like him. Actually, it would be more accurate to say she detests him.

bonus juri & miki palate cleanser:

"This is unlike you. What are you so worked up about?" Juri protested to Miki. But her voice held none of the iciness she'd shown when speaking to Utena and Saionji.

[animefeminist]

Chatty AF 200: Revolutionary Girl Utena Watchalong – Part 1

We’re celebrating 200 episodes! And what better way than for mega Utena fan Vrai to talk Cy and Chiaki through their very first viewing of the series?

Episode Information

Date Recorded: October 29th, 2023 Hosts: Vrai, Cy, Chiaki

Episode Breakdown

0:00:00 Intros 0:04:02 Past experience 0:10:08 Utena in modern culture 0:12:26 Series info 0:17:55 Favorite character 0:19:20 Sub vs Dub 0:25:18 Abuse of Anthy 0:32:30 Saionji 0:35:31 Incest 0:41:53 Learning how to watch Utena 0:46:44 Experience with Ikuhara 0:50:32 Utena’s gender and sexuality 0:56:47 Outro

Further Reading

Empty Movement / @empty-movement

Vrai’s Utena Episode Analyses (with spoilers)

Dear Brother Watchalong

[number1villainstan]

hnnnngrh an RGU Meta Idea has me in a chokehold so bear with me while i brainvomit about saionji and his masculinity vs the ideal of 'prince' and how it plays into the power hierarchies ohtori sets up

he's the very first antagonist we encounter, right? literally our first impression of him is "he hit that poor defenseless girl! that he was supposed to be dating!!! what's wrong with him!!!!" and then he rejects wakaba's love letter and utena duels him and the show kicks off. our very first impressions of him in the very first episode are that he's mean, he's cruel, he's inconsiderate, even that he's a brute. that--and this part is important--he is Masculine In A Bad Way. in ohtori everything is tied up in gender, and saionji is assigned the labels of 'man' and 'masculine', and so when he does bad things he is doing bad things as a man, right? he is, of course, hurting people, but more importantly to my point he is not performing manhood in an acceptable way. his masculinity is somehow corrupt or lacking or Wrong. in this way utena's victory over saionji in the first duel isn't just a triumph of "good" over "evil", it's a triumph of specifically utena's Good Masculinity (protective, sympathetic, princely) over saionji's Bad Masculinity (cruel, inconsiderate, not princely). rgu doesn't give a specific name to Bad Masculinity like it does to Good Masculinity (prince), Good Femininity (princess or bride), or Bad Femininity (witch) (possibly because akio is metaphorically the one behind the camera and doesn't want to draw attention to the idea of Bad Masculinity in a way that might allow women a legitimate advantage over men, possibly because outside of rgu there's no corresponding specific fairytale role for Bad Masculinity) but it's still there and, more importantly, it's still being used to uphold the hierarchies and illusions of ohtori

because if we go back to the idea of Good vs Bad Masculinity, and then we take the rest of the show into account, we see that Good Masculinity isn't 'good' because it helps people or reduces harm, but because it upholds the systemic hierarchies and dichotomies of Ohtori. the role of 'prince,' the term for and model of Good Masculinity, is inherently a limiting one for both the 'prince' himself and the 'princesses' he saves. which makes that first duel no longer straightforwardly a positive thing, but among other things a reinforcement of those same harmful hierarchies and dichotomies.

and of course saionji isn't actually the archetype of Bad Masculinity (which i want to call the 'brute', but i'm not sure i want to dive into the racial/imperialistic connotations of 'brute' vs 'prince' in this post) that he's presented as in the first episode. he's a character in his own right, and throughout the series we see that this first impression we got is, while not entirely wrong, at best a surface-level reading of saionji and the roles he plays in the narrative. and what illustrates this tension between impression and reality best is how he acts when wakaba's keeping him in her apartment: as the essay Fight/Flight, Rest/Relaxation by Giovanna points out, possibly the only time that saionji is every truly happy or relaxed is when he's staying with wakaba--in other words, when we see him outside the systems of ohtori. of course, that happiness isn't totally pure either, because wakaba is using saionji as her Shining Thing so that she can go from the non-special side of one of Ohtori's dichotomy to the special side, because unlike saionji at that point wakaba is still participating in those same systems. and yet. when working inside the systems of ohtori saionji is cruel, uncaring, rude, mean. outside the systems of ohtori saionji is happy, relaxed, straightforward and honest and genuine and kind, even.

and in the end that's the key, isn't it? now we understand his behavior in the first episode not as caused by his being a Bad Person. there are no Bad People in RGU, save perhaps akio. no, now we understand his behavior here as a kid, lashing out and hurting people because he's hurting, because he lives in a system in which violence is presented as the solution, because no one taught him how to manage his own emotions and he has no access to or knowledge of that information. because he's a kid growing up in a system that turns his emotions and his straightforwardness against him because they're a threat to that same system. saionji is assigned the archetype of Bad Masculinity not because he hurts people but because his native personality threatens the system. and when that same system begins to repress those innate parts of himself, when he's angry and in pain, the system teaches him to lash out and make other people hurt like he hurts, reinforcing the emotional isolation, reinforcing his pain, reinforcing the roles the system imposes on him and the shallow image those roles project to other people. he's angry and miserable because he's isolated by the system, the system teaches him to lash out and push people away, people respond to that by not getting close which reinforces his isolation. the cycle continues, one gear among many, revolution after revolution after revolution and nothing changes.

but there's hope. there's a glimmer of another path here, and it lies again in that contradiction. the cycle is one of violence; it takes work to maintain ignorance. outside of those cycles, the systems of ohtori, saionji is no longer bound to that path, no longer cast as the Bad Masculine. when he's living with wakaba, all that anger and pain disappears, almost, and he flourishes. if he can leave the system he can break the cycle. a gear fixed in place in a machine turns and turns and turns and gets nowhere; a gear fallen out of the machine can roll forward for a great distance.

all girls are like the rose bride. all boys are like the duelist. and all of us are trapped in this hell of human making...unless we choose, like anthy did, like saionji could have, to walk away.

[utenarevolusionaria]

[orangecharactersmackdown]

(sorry for the graphic-design-is-my-passion level editing)

6 brackets! 192 characters! 96 pairs enter, 1 character leaves! (Well, it's weeded down to 6 characters, then we have some semi finals, and THEN 1 character leaves!)

The voting will begin Wednesday, March 15. First, Round 1 of Bracket 1 will be posted, then the next day, Round 1 of Bracket 2, and the day after, Round 1 of Bracket 3, and so on and so forth. They will be under #orange poll. Propaganda (if anyone chooses to make any) is under #propaganda. Each of the polls will be up for 3 days, so each round of voting follows each other.

Under the cut is all the pairs and their respective brackets. Get ready to vote!

BRACKET 1

Garfield (Garfield) VS Applejack (MLP)

Hinata Shouyou (Haikyuu!!) VS Kel (Omori)

Broken Vessel (Hollow Knight) VS Claus (Mother 3)

Cole Brookstone (Ninjago) VS Skylor Chen (Ninjago)

Rory the Builder (Club Penguin) VS Orange Puffle (Club Penguin)

Emma (The Promised Neverland) VS Ava Ire (Ava's Demon)

Raihan (Pokemon) VS Misty (Pokemon)

Dexter Grif (Red vs Blue) VS Felix Gates (Red vs Blue)

Zenitsu (Demon Slayer) VS Nami (One Piece)

Stella of Solaria (Winx Club) VS Amber the Orange Fairy (Rainbow Magic)

Orange Inkling Girl (Splatoon) VS Crash Bandicoot (Crash Bandicoot)

Ernie (Sesame Street) VS Pepe the King Prawn (The Muppets)

Jack (Candies 'n Curses) VS Jack Pumpkinhead (The Marvelous Land of Oz)

Tintin (The Adventures of Tintin) VS Toad (Frog & Toad are Friends)

Orange Blossom (Strawberry Shortcake) VS Jade Chan (Jackie Chan Adventures)

Leo Tsukinaga (Ensemble Stars) VS Ren Jinguji (Uta no Prince Sama)

BRACKET 2

Annoying Orange (Annoying Orange) VS Orange Side (Sanders Sides)

Davesprite (Homestuck) VS Tavros Nitram (Homestuck)

Merida (Brave) VS Scar (The Lion King)

Numbuh 4 (Code Name: Kids Next Door) VS Lazlo (Camp Lazlo)

Nemo (Finding Nemo) VS Marlin (Finding Nemo)

Sundrop (FNAF: Security Breach) VS Jack Kennedy (Day Shift at Freddy's)

Waai Fu (Arknights) VS Jodie Caldwell (Super Lesbian Animal RPG)

Shannon (OK-KO!) VS Penny Polendina (RWBY)

Panette (Fire Emblem: Engage) VS Pandreo (Fire Emblem: Engage)

Marine The Raccoon (Sonic franchise) VS Cream The Rabbit (Sonic franchise)

Kyo Sohma (Fruits Basket) VS Asuka Langley Soryu (Neon Genesis Evangelion)

Hagumi Kitazawa (BanG Dream!) VS Chika Takami (Love Live!)

Pump (Spooky Month) VS Pumpkin Pie Cookie (Cookie Run)

Scooter (The Muppets) VS Gobo Fraggle (Fraggle Rock)

Pukin (Magical Girl Raising Project) VS Top Speed (Magical Girl Raising Project)

Scootaloo (MLP) VS Sunburst (MLP)

BRACKET 3

Darwin Watterson (The Amazing World of Gumball) VS Wander (Wander Over Yonder)

Winnie (Scooby-Doo and the Ghoul School) VS August (Cryptid Crush)

Grillby (Undertale) VS Seam (Deltarune)

Phineas Flynn (Phineas & Ferb) VS Candace Flynn (Phineas & Ferb)

Calcifer (Howl's Moving Castle) VS Ponyo (Ponyo)

Juri Arisugawa (Revolutionary Girl Utena) VS Sailor Venus/Minako Aino (Sailor Moon)

Gordon Freeman (HLVRAI) VS Darnold (HLVRAI)

Morshu (LOZ: The Faces of Evil) VS King Harkinian (LOZ: The Faces of Evil)

Aang (Avatar: The Last Airbender) VS Starfire (Teen Titans)

Hamtaro (Hamtaro) VS Heathcliff (Heathcliff)

Cure Soleil (Star Twinkle Precure) VS Cure Sunny (Smile Precure)

Zora Salazar (Epithet Erased) VS Arthur Kingsmen (Mystery Skulls)

Oz (Monster Prom) VS Ritsuka Fujimaru (Fate/Grand Order)

Mo Guan Shan (19 Days) VS Beebi (Wonderlab)

Orange Bird (Disney) VS Peacock (Skullgirls)

Olette (Kingdom Hearts 2) VS Gumi (Vocaloid)

BRACKET 4

Naruto Uzumaki (Naruto Shippuden) VS Narancia Ghigira (Jojo's Bizarre Adventure)

Tigger (Winnie the Pooh) VS Hobbes (Calvin & Hobbes)

Leon Kuwata (Danganronpa: Trigger Happy Havoc) VS Hiyoko Saionji (Danganronpa: Goodbye Despair)

Puss in Boots (Shrek Universe) VS Firestar (Warrior Cats)

Torchic (Pokemon) VS Tepig (Pokemon)

Tangy (Animal Crossing) VS Orange Cookie (Cookie Run)

Gordon Freeman (Half Life) VS Chell (Portal)

Amanda O'Neill (Little Witch Academia) VS Lotte Jansson (Little Witch Academia)

Mothra (Mothra films) VS Timid Bookworm (Sky: Children of the Light)

Matt (Wii Sports) VS Daisy (Super Mario Bros)

Levy McGarden (Fairy Tail) VS Hazuki Fujiwara (Ojamajo Doremi)

Futaba Sakura (Persona 5) VS Yosuke Hanamura (Persona 4)

Tracy Reznik (Identity V) VS Andy (Raggedy Ann & Andy: A Musical Adventure)

Vee (The Owl House) VS Coran (Voltron: Legendary Defender)

Yoimiya (Genshin Impact) VS Edna (Tales of Zestiria)

Rena Rouge (Miraculous Ladybug) VS Takao Kazunari (Kuroko no Basket)

BRACKET 5

Tails (Sonic 2, 1992) VS Handy (Happy Tree Friends)

Padparadscha (Steven Universe) VS Jasper (Steven Universe)

Opened Can of Well Cheers (Lobotomy Corporation) VS SCP-999 (SCP Foundation)

The Second Coming (Animator vs Animation) VS King Orange (Animator vs Animation)

Giraffe Furby VS Witch Furby

Chester Cheetah VS Tony the Tiger

Tsukasa Tenma (Project SEKAI) VS Tsukasa Ebisu (Revue Starlight: Relive)

Kuruto Ryuki (AI: The Somnium Files) VS Roman Torchwik (RWBY)

Son Goku (Dragon Ball) VS Ichigo Kurosaki (Bleach)

Velma Dinkley (Scooby-Doo) VS Fry (Futurama)

Saki Nikaido (Zombieland Saga) VS Toralei Stripe (Monster High)

Beelzebub (Obey Me!) VS Tohri Nishikikouji (Hatoful Boyfriend)

Gaius (Fire Emblem Awakening) VS Hershel Layton (Professor Layton)

Retsuko (Aggretsuko) VS Flame Princess (Adventure Time)

Kiri Koshiba (Beauty Pop) VS Sakura Chiyo (Monthly Girl's Nozaki-kun)

Asano Gakushuu (Assassination Classroom) VS Akito Shinonome (Project SEKAI)

BRACKET 6

Mikey (Rise of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles) VS Dirk Strider (Homestuck)

Troy Barnes (Community) VS Oluwande Boodhari (Our Flag Means Death)

Tigress (Kung Fu Panda) VS Tigress (Carmen Sandiego)

Kim Possible (Kim Possible) VS Tulip Olsen (infinity Train)

Waddle Dee (Kirby) VS Morpho Knight (Kirby)

Ace (Katamari Damacy) VS Shikao (Katamari Damacy)

Kim Possible (Kim Possible) VS Tulip Olsen (infinity Train)

Orange Juice (Inanimate Insanity) VS The Lorax (The Lorax)

Athena Cykes (Ace Attorney) VS Damon Gant (Ace Attorney)

Rio Ranger (Your Turn To Die) VS Gin Ibushi (Your Turn To Die)

Caleb Widogast (Critical Role) VS Neil Josten (All For The Game)

Tracer (Overwatch) VS Samus Aran (Metroid)

Portia (The Arcana) VS Navra (The Arcana)

Sphene (Houseki no Kuni) VS Zircon (Houseki no Kuni)

Penny (Big Top Burger) VS The Sorceress (He-Man)

Ahiru (Princess Tutu) VS Sara (Mermaid Melody Pichi Pichi Pitch)

Kipper (Kipper the Dog) VS Ruff Ruffman (Fetch! with Ruff Ruffman)

[thecarnivorousmuffinmeta]

thoughts on saionji x touga (revolutionary girl utena)?

"Is this not confirmed canon?" - Me

Joking aside, it's one of those things that... I feel like is pretty much confirmed canon in the way that a lot of ships in Utena are confirmed canon. All of Saionji's relationships, even his obsession with Anthy, center around Touga and beating him/showing him up/NOTICE ME SENPAI!

It's very clear that his interest in Anthy is about status and control, about simply having the bride, vs. say Miki who certainly believes he's interested in the Anthy he thinks he sees (which is of course an illusion but that's a different story).

And of course, we have such things as them posing dramatically half-naked together in the student council with no explanation where they decide that yes, they are going to do this one good thing.

And it's not that Touga's not into it. Touga has more going on (which of course upsets Saionji) in that he has his... weird relationship with his little sister, his cat/mouse game with Utena (that ultimately ends in an extreme humiliation and oh boy he didn't see that coming did he), his "Oh Akio, teach me how to be a bad bad man", but by the end of the show we see that yes Saionji is his best friend and probably the healthiest relationship he has and not something that would shock me if it's sexual (because everything's fucking sexual in RGU).

So, my thoughts are "... yes?" and like all things in Utena, it is a very interesting dynamic and I hope things work out for those two someday.

[maoist-mizer]

Part 2 list

[greenhairandpronouns-tournament]

The Green Hair and Pronouns Tournament Bronze Match

Both contestants have already lost in the semifinals, and this match is to place them at 3rd or 4th.