#usually I don’t bring it up except when I’m with other queer ppl

[milkandhoneyfemme]

not a woman but when we talk abt womanhood and girls protect girls and the concept of drunk girls communing in the bathroom I’m usually there yknow

[weirdo09]

ok so i just got back from seeing atsv and just oh my fucking god.

like first of all THE ENDING?! LIKE HOW OUT OF ALL THE (honestly small amount of stuff) SPOILED FOR ME HOW DID NO ONE TELL ME THERE WAS GONNA BE A TBC AT THE END?! I CANT WAIT HOWEVER MANY YEARS ITLL BE TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS NEXT LIKE-

and like half the stuff in this film felt like a maaaaassssssiiivvveeeee metaphor for coming out like the “promise u won’t love me any less” (or whatever see said i’m bad at remembering exact quotes) and the fact that during Gwen’s speech to her dad EVERYTHING TURNED FUCKING PINK BLUE AND WHITE like cmon they aren’t even being subtle abt it u guys (@ the ppl who r denying it not u) just don’t wanna see queer ppl in media they literally could not make it more on the nose w/o making it an actual queer coming out story and not a metaphor (also when Miles and Rio were talking and he was trying to tell her “a secret” aka that he was spider-man and he was going all “i- i’m- i’m-” before bailing she 1000% thought he was trying to come out to her like as queer idk what other way she couldve interpreter that like srsly)

also not to be horny in asks but i need Miguel to fucking rail me for fuck’s sake hes hot and usually it’d be more likely i’d be into a mosquito than a muscular guy (it’s normally too generic yk)

and yeah that’s all my thoughts on the movie that’s i can turn into words (final random ones that idk how to format: Gwen and Miles were like extra baby in this one esp Miles + ik he has a wife and all but Peter and Miguel r definitely doing smthn like the vibes r there u cant deny it + Gwen x Miles is one of those ships that i don’t rlly care whether they’re romantic or platonic but i prefer them platonic and unfortunately the writers don’t seem to agree with me (kinda like Jopper except Jopper kinda grew on my entirely because of Willel being siblings bring extra extra canon) + not related to the contents of the film but there were these group of rlly annoying Neds sitting behind me and my friend who wouldn’t stop talking and going on their phones and i only heard one but according to my friend 2 ppl yelled at them to shut up and i heard them stop for like 2 seconds then start being bitches again it was so fucking annoying) and yeah damn that was a kinds long final thoughts thingy but yeah will this become my entire personality? idk we’ll have to see now if u’ll excuse me i gotta remember how to be a normal human again (hope this wasn’t too long lmao) :p

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH(sorry had to let that out) (it’s happy btw)

yes yes the metaphors, made me cry n everythin,, miles n rio were just !!!!!!! i loved it mostly bcuz i wish that was how my mom would’ve reacted if i ever came out to her (spoiler alert, she didn’t and she found out on her own. she was not at all accepting which is typical)

i mean at first, i thought miguel was comical very comical for having beef with miles, who is half his age!!!! yeah after i got out the theater, i wanted to beat his ass 😡😡😡 but then i could kinda see his attractive still not an excuse, i’d still fight him on sight

peter + miguel, i mean mj would obviously approve,,, they’re my poly couple ok??? miguel n mayday get me in my feels,,, 😭😭😭 like i’ve posted before PETER B PARKER AND MIGUEL O’HARA ATE EACH OTHERS ASSES!!!!! yeah great times

miles + gwen, i don’t really see or care for them romantically.. idk i just can’t see their romantic coding… them platonically just seem so much better to me

sorry abt those Neds,,, they seem like total bitches and you make this movie your whole personality bcuz it will be worth it (secretly goin to make the movie my personality again)

[uncannyfellow]

Hey anon I’m a trans western expat (aka white foreigner) in China. Pre-HRT trans male and living here for 4 years in a tier 2 city (smaller than Shanghai/Beijing but still pretty big) Was meant to go to Thailand to transition in 2020 but then COVID happened and I’m still here lmaoooo. Anyway I’ll share with you my overall experiences with being trans in China. It’s all pretty much in-line with the stuff written above!

Most younger Chinese people will have an awareness of what trans is, but unless you’re on HRT and pass well they will likely call you by your gender assigned at birth. For me the only exceptions to this are my gf and one of my BFFs, every other Chinese person will call me a girl. A lot of Chinese ppl may also just assume you’re a T (tomboy aka masculine/butch lesbian). My gf also thought I was a T at first until I explained it to her lol

Other foreign ppl will be generally quite understanding but may misgender you if you don’t pass well enough, even the more open-minded ones. All of my foreign friends know I’m trans and will tell others I’m trans/a boy, but most of them will also often misgender me. They don’t mean any harm by it, they’re just not used to being around a trans person. I usually don’t bother correcting them but I’m sure if I did they’d get better at using the right pronouns. There’s transphobic ppl too of course, but within the foreign community you’re never going to be in danger (one wrong move and foreigners can get deported so no one is gonna risk their visa to hurt a trans person) the worst transphobia I’ve experienced from another foreigner is helicopter jokes lol

Most work contracts will have equality clauses but they’ll usually only mention stuff like sex, age, nationality, and sexuality. I’ve never signed a contract that mentions gender identity included in these protections. So at work I don’t bring it up unless asked by someone, including the kids. If a kid asks me if I’m a boy or a girl I just ask them “idk what do you think?” And I just let them decide what to call me. Sometimes it’s boy, sometimes it’s girl, usually it’s boygirl 🤷‍♀️

Overall my advice would be while the young people you meet in cities are pretty understanding towards queer/LGBTQIA+/trans stuff, if you’re pre-HRT then don’t come to China unless you’re okay with being misgendered a LOT 😅

These days being misgendered doesn’t bother me but that was something I had to learn to be okay with. Generally every white/western immigrant coming to China will need to learn to be adaptable and be a bit thick-skinned to be able to live out here long-term, because there’s a lot of cultural differences that you’ll struggle to accept otherwise. “Misgendering” will sadly just be one of the many things on your list you’ll need to learn to adapt around.

(Also adapting is not a concept unique to moving to China btw- culture shock will happen pretty much any place you move to. So if you change your mind about China but decide to go to Japan/Thailand/etc. be prepared to still learn how to adapt regardless of how accepting to trans ppl the country is)

Also idk this for sure but if you’re taking HRT and your documents have your correct gender then I imagine misgendering won’t be a big issue as ppl won’t even be aware you were assigned a different gender at birth! So you’ll probably be okay living in a city with access to a gender clinic. But this idk for sure, it would just be my assumption

Anyway sorry for rambling a bit, hopefully my experiences are helpful for you anon! For what it’s worth, I really do enjoy my life in China, in fact I enjoy my life here a lot more than my life at home in the UK! but it wasn’t enjoyable when I first arrived and I had to grow a thick skin pretty fast 🥲

How would you describe the attitude towards trans people in China? ((I ask this as a trans person who would like to work there as an expat))

I don’t live in China so I couldn’t tell you with any certainty what to expect in real life anyway. But, you asked, so I want to at least take a stab at it, even if I just end up rambling about other things.

I expect you know it’s already hard enough to be trans in the west, even in the supposed liberal utopia of major cities. Now think about moving to another country and having to start out with no real support network. Now on top of that, while recognition and acceptance of queer identities, particularly gays and lesbians, in China has taken strides forward in recent years, it’s still not on the same level with the same sort of sensitive treatment as what you could say many have come to expect in the West (depending on where you live). The official government stance on LGBT issues is a tepid “uhhhhhhmmmm 🙈🙉🙊” (“Laws protect all individuals from discrimination on the basis of gender, sexual orientation, etc, but until something happens don’t look at us for nothing 🤐. Please clap.”), so most LGBT education/awareness largely comes through local grassroots efforts (slow and frequently hampered) and online/global media exposure (tho this also requires a level of voluntary engagement).

So, I’m not trying to spook you, but I wanted to make that clear first, that merely moving to another country as a trans person is no enviable task. If you do immigrate to China or live there for a period of time, you will of course at least have some level of privilege as an English speaking (white?) foreigner, so that might help, especially if you plan on hanging out with other expats anyway. Living in a major city would also help, which is really just to say, city folk anywhere are always going to be more open-minded and so I guess this finally brings us close to more of an answer to your question:

Based on my limited observations, I feel like the attitude toward the every day trans person trends negative compared to the west, perhaps largely due to lack of understanding (why would “choose” to be trans, how could you do such a thing, etc). It is not illegal or anything, and HRT/gender reassignment surgery is available in China, medically speaking, but again, I sense that the knowledge/understanding disparity when it comes to transgender identity is pretty high and therefore acceptance is inversely proportional to that. Discussion of the topic that I have seen has never really been that nuanced. Young people are more likely to accept and support LGBT+ individuals in general, but that’s “in general (like, I supsect that it might be more for LGB support versus trans support, as typically LGB issues receive greater attention than trans issues).

On the more neutral/positive end, there will be people who say “as long as they’re not hurting anyone”/ “a person has to live for themself/respect each person’s right to make their own choices in life” and that sort of thing, but I’ve never seen anything pro trans or pro gender revelations per se (this is true by and large in the West as well I think, so no big diff there), and anecdotally, I’ve seen a lot of those comments toward trans people of like “oh but you used to be so pretty/handsome, why would blah blah blah”, and more emphasis seems to be placed on passing, like I guess the more successfully you transition to the opposite gender (ftm or mtf) the more respect you deserve (as if transition should be the goal) (like if you botch it, visually speaking, you might as well have not even bothered) (but I guess this is also true in mainstream thought in the west), and even if you pass you might still get hit with the “can you believe they’re actually a _?”/ "wow I have to be more careful" treatment.

I guess it’s worth noting Jin Xing, a popular trans celebrity/TV presenter in China, is also highly respected, even amongst older generations (which is cool). To many, she “already counts as a real woman” (to quote a comment I saw once) because she’s seen as dedicated to being herself (a woman), and is a wonderful mother to 3 adopted children. People respect her because she worked hard and she has an attractive personality, but at the same time, she’s also high profile enough that the disrespect can get drowned out by the admirers, so she's not a typical case of the trans experience in China obviously.

TLDR

Soooo. I don't live in China so my perspective is limited (I can't emphasise that enough) and only my own opinion based on discourse/exchanges, commentary, depictions, etc, I've witnessed on the Chinese web (douyin, bilibili, zhihu, and douban forums for the most part).

I don’t know how rude anyone would be to your face. Being a foreigner/expat (I said “(white?)” earlier because I feel like “expat” usually refers to white people) might afford you some extra privilege or at least a wider berth from dealing with assholes. As of right now, my impression of the general attitude toward trans people is: improving but still behind and still with the focus on successful transition. Lots of awareness is still needed but efforts to increase it are slow and hampered.

---

Aaaaah this turned out way longer than I'd hoped 😬 and I always feel like I'm typing up paragraph upon paragraph of unintelligible nonsense but I hope this give you some food for thought, since you asked for my take. I expect you're already quite sober to the realities of We Live In a Society™ as a trans person, so apologies if I sound too pompous or lecture-y at any point.

[dkettchen]

BLACK MIRROR S5E1 “STRIKING VIPERS” E X P L A I N E D

-with the help of gender and game theory-

Y’all asked for it so here we go

Some things before we start: -If you were watching the episode looking for gay/trans shit, and got disappointed, I’m sorry but I can’t help you because that’s just not what the episode was about and that is ok. It explored some aspects of queer experience, and the limbo between queer and cis-straight experience, that isn’t usually addressed in such an honest and indepth way, which I think is just as important as trans or gay rep.  -I will focus my analysis on the core theme of what certain academics writing about androgyny call the “moment of transgression” so in this case the question of ‘what is Karl/Roxette’s deal & what does that mean for Danny/Lance’s feelings toward and interactions with them?’. -CW: transphobia, homophobia, toxic masculinity, (rpg) uncanny valley stuff, you get it, you know what subjects we’ll be talking about here. 

Now!

I’d like to start by pointing out the title “Striking Vipers” to get the phallus talk out of the way right off the bat x’D: It’s a very blatant penis metaphor, and Vipers specifically are venomous, so represent toxic masculinity. The image of them striking signals danger. The repetition of phallic symbols represents the threat of castration (see medusa turning them bois to stone & the heroic masculinity of the mirror shielded boi who managed to defeat her), which to phallocentric masculinity is the scawiest thing there is (losing the phallus = losing manhood = death?? I guess??). Striking Vipers means that toxic masculinity, by nature, is a threat to itself. (I could talk for hours about the exact warped logic of phallocentricity but Imma spare y’all cause I don’t think it’s relevant for this, I’d even go as far as saying this episode was anti-phallic (which I use here as a more inclusive word for “feminist”, as the episode’s core is about two guys, but still focused on them experiencing and embracing feminine power and freeing themselves from phallocentricity(/patriarchy)’s grasp, just like “what men want” was preoccupied with the toxic masculinity of its female protagonist)) That sets up the kind of horror the episode will be about, the male fear of castration, of loss of identity, of having to face the fact that traditional masculinity is toxic even to the people who conform to it. 10/10 title choice.

Next up: the core question of what label to put on Karl and Danny’s VR interactions (‘Fellas, is it gay to fuck ur best friend in a lady body in VR?’). Which leads to the first question which is: what gender is Karl when he’s playing as Roxette?  An essentialist might say: ‘Well he’s a man irl so he’s still a man even if he plays with a female avatar. Danny’s attraction to him is either him being trapped or just plain old gay.’ But I don’t think that’s the case. It’s not a trap scenario (have some videos on traps and how they’re not real actually: (x.), (x.)), because both people involved know the exact parameters of the situation. Danny knows this is Karl in Roxette’s body, there’s nothing hidden, no misunderstanding to be had here. I also don’t think it’s gay because if it was this would’ve happened irl or with two male avatars, but it only happened once one of them was in a female avatar, that was the change that made it happen. It’s not a fetishising phallic/trans women scenario either, because it’s the opposite, it’s a man’s mind in a woman’s body. There’s no doubt about Karl being a man irl, a queer man sure, but definetely a man. He’s just too into -womanhood while playing her for me to say he’s still male when he’s in that form, like Karl as Roxette isn’t a trans guy as a man’s mind in a female body usually would be (like f.e. Ranma 1/2), I also don’t think Karl as Roxette is an androgyne/non-binary/third term either, because again, he’s embracing her womanhood and the role that comes with it, to the extreme that is hetero PiV sex, too much. I’d argue what we see is the closest to the liberation and euphoria described by other queer men when doing drag, she’s just a more extreme version of drag, of crossplaying, making the fantasy real, wearing not only the clothes of a woman but the body too. Roxette as Karl’s avatar is an alter ego, who is female, so -on the risk of sounding like the biggest performativist since Judith Butler- Karl as Roxette presents as female, so, for all intents and purposes, is female in that moment, regardless of his irl persona maintaining his male gender outside of that. 

But that wasn’t what we wanted to know, was it. Because even if, in the moment that Karl plays Roxette, we can say that person is female, that doesn’t eliminate the fact that Karl, outside of that, isn’t and that he’s still the one playing her. It’s the notion of how the player/actor/performer and avatar/character/persona aren’t the same thing and can have different relationships with someone in real life vs in the game, and how that can be confusing to think about because there is no clear line between the two, something that is called “bleed” in ludology(/game studies, from lat. ludus: game or school; referring to the gladiator schools in like the colosseum), despite their relationships being fundamentally different (in this case friendship irl vs passionate love in game).  Take TAZ as an example: The McElroys are related, but in playing a trpg, the DM, usually Griffin, takes up the mantle of all NPCs in the game world, including love interests. Griffin played Julia, Kravitz, and Danny (different Danny lol), but he’s talking to his brother, except he isn’t, is he, cause it’s not Griffin talking and it’s not his brother responding, it’s two characters interacting. A similar uncanny valley can be found in actor/character bleed: Take Ludi and Pom (the actors for Lance and Roxette) in this one: like 80% of their screentime was spent making out or having fake sex. These actors aren’t dating (as far as I’m aware lol), this is their job, to fake love each other on screen, imagine having to do that with a coworker you feel nothing for. It’s the characters that feel something and you have to play that feeling (which is so meta at that point, they’re playing characters that are avatars being played by characters in the show). Also, talking of role-playing, can we appreciate the scene of Danny & Theo at the bar where they’re role-playing and she’s like that was hot and he’s like mental note bae’s into role-playing, because DAMN that foreshadowing of the erotic potential of roleplay as a concept.

But it’s not role-playing really either with Danny and Karl, is it? They’re playing in avatars other than themselves but they’re not fully a different person. They still very much feel the same just in a different form. Their emotions are real even though they might only apply to part of their experience, the in-game part. Yet they obviously take them seriously and personal and get influenced by them outside the game. Maybe the question is what is and is not role-playing? Where does the bleed start and end, and do we even need to know the answer to those questions? They answer those questions for themselves in the end by testing out their feelings irl to see if they track or not, fully ready for both possibilities (which 10/10 character development love it). They want clarity. It’s about the emotional limbo fantasy brings with it. It’s the same question “Are traps gay” is about. (Not the “Is it ok to feel attracted to androgynous ppl” one necessarily, but) “Does feeling attracted to the fantasy mean you feel attracted to the “real” thing underneath?” Are the feelings for the fantasy alone or also for the reality? Are they only applicable to the latter and does that change something about what you thought you knew about yourself? It’s a question about the fringe edges of limited/monosexuality and the very fabric of reality. 

Let’s return to Karl to look at his experience as Roxette. We’ve established that she is female, but what is Karl while playing her? In the spirit of queer drag as liberating, it’s almost like he’s taking a break from being Karl when playing as her. Drag, crossplay, or this extreme version of it, functions as a break from the toxicity and limitations of traditional gender roles (so in this case traditional masculinity). It is freeing, though what does it free? Some genderless spirit inhabiting each person? But then how do you explain the firm gender identity lots of people, including for all we know Karl, experience in everyday life? As a trans person I know that there is SOMETHING to gender on some level that can create gender dysphoria (social and/or physical) for people when put in a body they don’t identify with. As a drag performer, trpg enthousiast, and notorious crossplayer, I know that taking a break from that reality and being somebody else can be relieving, a break from your own problems. So what is that part of us that translates into fantasy? I feel like this goes into transhumanist territory which I don’t know enough about to even attempt to provide an answer. I think what it comes down to in terms of gender theory is, this is a situation at the height of where performativism is true and relevant. There is a relativity to the nature of reality and gender itself. Whatever base essence there is that causes gender dysphoria at a mismatch between outside and inside, doesn’t apply here. Both notions (of essential and performative gender) are real and have an impact on people but neither is always the case and neither is never the case. They’re not mutually exclusive. 

So, seeing as it seems impossible to pinpoint what gender Karl/Roxette qualifies as (other than all and/or none), let’s look at the nature of Danny/Lance and Karl/Roxette’s interactions and feelings toward those interactions and each other to try and contextualise what label(s) they might fit under.  The desire on Danny’s side when faced with Roxette’s form shows itself in a way he’d never feel toward Karl. That visual change, and the social changes it brings with it (in gender role), makes it so extreme, because it pairs the parts of his friend he appreciates and enjoys (personality and whatever deeper connection a close friendship brings with it), with a form that is attractive to him. That change translates to Karl too. In playing with this new form that has a different role and a different effect on someone he’s known for so long, he flows into that, melts into this new persona and lives it up! The way they interact in game isn’t gay. It is very much reflecting how straight attraction and female sexuality works. On one hand it’s based in undeniable difference (hetero = different), and on the other hand Karl/Roxette’s enjoyment thereof is based in being desirable, in having that power of seduction just by existing, that notion of feminine power and the freedom that comes with it. It’s not autogynephilia, that would imply he gets off on the idea of himself as a woman, which is not the case, he gets off on being desired as a woman, which is what female sexuality is about (source: ContraPoints’ Autogynephilia video (which I recommend, it’s very good))

Still whenever Karl tries to get Danny to keep having VR sex with him/Roxette, he talks about her in 3rd person, like a persona. In saying “it’s just like porn” he poses something that is very much a different activity (acting out the porn by -doin’ it-) as a homosocially (social as opposed to sexual/romantic) acceptable one (watching porn together which I’ve been told is a thing). He attempts to differentiate himself from his female persona and enjoyment there-of (by objectifying her, like a porn actress to be watched rather than identified with), himself and Danny from the queerness (in enjoying femininity and in Danny being down with basically fucking a drag-queen) and to retreat back into heteronormative traditional masculinity, away from the scawy unknown of exploring your sexuality. His internalised homo- and transphobia makes him suppose that Danny, as a supposed straight guy, will only respond to the safety of assured non-queerness, which, honestly, I don’t think is the case with him. Karl supposes his cancelling on him and not wanting to do it anymore is out of the fear for his sexual identity or whatever, but from what I can tell, while Danny also seems to be rather confused about what it all means, the reasons he cancels their nightly sessions, and rejects Karl/Roxette, are always about not wanting his marriage to fall apart. He quite clearly prefers hot VR sex to hanging out with his wife, and cancels out of duty to her rather than fear. Even the first time they kiss, Karl is the one to freak out first. Danny seems much calmer about the attraction part of the situation, to the point of in the end being the one to take initiative and make them try it out irl to put an end to the confusion.

The episode hits hard because it takes the way men play video games and brings it to its logical conclusion. Video games are mens safe-space, and they do play with that playful flirty banter. The show takes that and makes it real, including taking it to its extreme conclusion that is -doin’ it-. It infiltrates the male safe space by taking normalised behaviour, and taking it so far that it puts traditional masculinity and heteronormative attraction in question, the very thing the safe space was supposed to protect them from. That’s why it’s existentially horrifying for the main characters (and viewers that identify with them) and qualifies as a black mirror episode even without having a homo-/trans-/biphobic ending (like other media that put traditional masculinity in question usually do, not to mention all the horror based in queer-coding) 

Hope y’all enjoyed this journey into a bit of mind-bending game and gender theory! Pls don’t expect me to do this like ever again bc I need to go work on my actual essay rip x’D