#tsoa crit
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patroclus in tsoa:
oh... i accidentally killed sarpedon??? i'm not built for violence, really. that's achilles. i guess he's always protecting me... i love him, i can't make myself argue with him— i'm so in love with him i don't know to be angry at him. ever.
patroclus in the iliad:
*invents gamer's rage by killing clysonysmus*
{kill count: so high that homer's just listing names at one point}
*kills sarpedon and then KILLS ANYBODY WHO TRIES TO TAKE HIS BODY* (the dead man's father ended up intervening i believe)
"hey patroclus... you're crying like a girl what's wrong??" "what's wrong? what's wrong??? what's wrong is yOU MOTHERFU—"
*knocks hector's charioteer onto the floor with a stone that fucking kills him* 10/10 my guy that was a perfect dive!! trojans seem awfully good at diving out of their chariots, don't you think??
"on my own? i would have killed TWENTY hectors, and you know that."
#and i KNOW patroclus killing clysonysmus is in tsoa too but. that was framed as an accident so does it really count???#also perhaps this is because i read it long ago in a biased lens but i remember that part in the iliad where pat was crying and#and achilles was like 'whats wrong' and patroclus INSTANTLY goes like 'you and your stupid fucking rage????'#might have used mild exaggeration of language for comedic purposes. but i firmly believe this is how it actually went down#achilles went 'why're you crying like a girl??' and patroclus punched him in the face THAT'S what fucking happened#im in love with patroclus#maybe you can tell#the iliad#patroclus#achilles#tsoa crit#maybe??? not inherently anti but. tbf i don't really... like certain aspects of that book#ill tag it js in case#anti tsoa
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LET'S ENJOY GREEK MYTH RETELLINGS AND STORIES BUT NOT TAKE ALL OF THEM SERIOUSLY
You know, I really have to say this.
I don't think that Greeks, Hellenistic Pagans and other people who know Greek Mythology would be as frustrated as they are today if people DIDN'T TAKE MODERN SOURCES DEPICTING GREEK MEDIA AS ALWAYS ACCURATE.
Bear with me now.
All right, so, we all know about Percy Jackson.
And PJO was basically the Greek God make or break of its time and it broke the Greek Gods. Greeks and Hellenistic Pagans had the unfortunate experience of being bombarded with false, incorrect interpretations and thoughts about their deities.
And we have to remember here that to these Hellenistic Pagans, their gods are as sacred to them as God is to Christians. Maybe they wouldn't kill people over their gods, an added bonus, but we must respect the fact that they worship the gods and we must be respectful of Greek Gods when interacting with them.
See, I'm not saying that you can't be lighthearted. You can joke around and all that-it's just that actually hating and condemning the Greek Gods shouldn't be done when you're interacting with their worshippers.
Now that I'm done with that, well, Rick Riordan fucked up with Greek Mythology big time. Making Athena have children, HIS MISOGYNY. THERE ARE ENTIRE TAGS DEDICATED TO RICK'S MISOGYNY, NOT JUST OF HIS FEMALE CHARACTERS BUT OF ACTUAL ANCIENT GREEK GODDESSES. If I did a whole essay on his misogyny, I'd have to make multiple posts.
Rick done fucked up with them. I do not have to be the first person to tell you that.
HOWEVER, I am obligated to say that any author is freely able to portray the Greek Gods as they want (unfortunately at times).
And so Rick is free to interpret them how he likes.
Let's also remember that Rick thought terribly of the Gods and their worshippers when he was writing Percy Jackson and the other series.
Of course, he HAS changed for the better. Now he's more respectful of Pagans and has apologised, which is nice, but I just thought I'd let you know.
See, now we can accept and criticise Rick's writing, but before-
Well, before, it was absolutely awful for Greeks and Hellenistic Pagans. I mean, it's still awful, but it was more awful back then because almost nobody criticised Percy Jackson about depicting Greek Gods terribly. Everyone said that Greek Gods were American and belonged to America-ugh, that was horrible. It's absolutely appalling to do that, no less to Greeks themselves. People ranted about how horrible the gods were.
And I mean yes, the Greek Gods could be awful by modern standards, but we need to remember two things-
The Greek Gods were based on an ANCIENT SOCIETY with DIFFERENT MORAL STANDARDS. Judging them by modern moral standards isn't going to do anything.
The actions of the gods were SYMBOLIC, NOT LITERAL.
a) Artemis' cruelty towards humans? That's the cruelty of nature towards him. Artemis was a nature goddess and she hunted and resided in the wild.
b) Dionysus being kind and charming but also mad and ruthless at times? Well, that's what wine does. It can make people funny and charming to a point, but it also drives people mad and makes them violent.
c) Hades kidnapping Persephone? Well, Hades represents death, and that's what death does-it rips children from their parents' arms. Also, it signifies the fact that daughters and mothers did not have a say in their marriage, the father could give the girl away to any man in those times. Demeter actually being able to get Persephone back was a comfort to grieving mothers.
d) Zeus cheating on Hera multiple times?
There are multiple explanations for this one.
First, kings and princes often claimed to be descendants of Zeus, so Zeus was said to have many affairs with royal mortal women so that their claims to divine lineage could be accurate.
Second, Zeus' rain represented fecundity and fertility. As I said above, the actions of the gods are symbolic and they represent their domains, so he had multiple affairs and loads of children to signify his fertility.
Third, the Greek Gods were based on Ancient Greek society where multiple men took concubines and lovers. And Zeus did this too, because he was a king!
e) Hera punishing the lovers and bastards? That's what queens did to some concubines for revenge, since they couldn't take it out on the king.
It's all either symbolic or based on Ancient Greece. The gods that humanity created were based on those times, and they were created millennia ago, when things were different in nearly every way possible.
Anyway, what I'm trying to tell you is that we're allowed to have fun with these stories and retellings that include Greek Mythology, but if you really want correct information on Greek gods, go and read the myths and the compositions of Ancient Greek poets and playwrights (Homer, Hesiod, etc).
Because many people, when reading these modern retellings and the like, think that they are actually real mythological information and accordingly spew nonsense.
People call Apollo 'Asspollo' and harass his worshippers because of one incorrect comic that came out in 2018. Apollo never raped Persephone.
And people also view famous figures like Odysseus and Achilles incorrectly because of incorrect translations that don't correctly capture the original and CERTAIN RETELLINGS (cough-Madeline Miller-COUGH)
And there are so many more examples I could give, but then this would be too long to post.
See, it's not that the writers completely rip the original lore out. They keep a lot of it, but they also add in some incorrect information. And sometimes this isn't that bad or malicious, it's just incorrect.
So if you're not sure about whether something in a retelling or story depicting Greek Gods is true, you should search it up online or ask someone who knows.
Because Greeks and Hellenistic Pagans are constantly frustrated at how their gods are portrayed and that everyone just takes the retellings as mythologically correct.
TLDR Greek mythology retellings can be fun for you to read but don't take all of the info in them as mythologically correct. You can be lighthearted about the Greek Gods but please don't actually loathe or mock them with others who believe in them and worship them. If you're not sure about info in a retelling or story, then search it up or ask someone you know.
There are multiple blogs on tumblr who can tell you more information about the actual Greek Gods and they're pretty nice about it too, so don't be too afraid.
#rr crit#pjo critical#pjo#pjo crit#percy jackson critical#percy jackson#rr critical#pjo discourse#rick riordan critical#percy jackson crit#PJO meta#Lore Olympus critical#LO critical#anti percy jackson#anti rr#anti rick riordan#Greek Gods#Greek Mythology#Anti tsoa#Anti Madeline Miller#Achilles#Odysseus
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Looking at tsoa crit is like. Seeing things about how it flattens the story of the iliad and is very one-note and ignores much of the point of the iliad for the sake of a romance I go oh yeah vallid crit I totally see what you mean and while i do think some of its point is to focus on the romance rather than other more nuances aspects it is definetly a huge ass problem. However seeing people talk about how they demonised thetis/made her homophobic and its like. I am murdering you violently with an axe
#the first thing and stuff like it IS and issue with the book#the thetis thing. my friend it is literally you GREVIOUSLY MISUNDERSTANDING HER CHARACTER#thetis tsoa fhey could never make me hate you
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Nine People You'd Like To Know Better
Tagged By: @jgnico
Last Song: Bass Riff that everyone likes- Ichika Nito
Currently Watching: Right now? TGCF S2, PJO live action, Dorohedoro, Crit Role Exandria Unlimited: Calamity, Midst podcast,
Favorite Color(s): soft lavender purple, warm Pooh Bear orange/ brown, stark warm ochre gold, bright turquoise, bold emerald
Currently Reading: ORV, JJK, Sakamoto Days, (weekly), HXH, Kaiju no 8, CSM, Witch Hat Atelier, Blue Period, Children of Blood n Bone, JWQS, Tamen de Gushi, Her Shim Cheong, Tattoo by Ci Qing, Golden Stage, TSOA,
Relationship Status: "Good Thing"- Kehlani & Zedd
Current Obsession: any above in bold but also I'll always yap about mdzs, Naruto, Spiderverse, atla, LOONA, jigokuraku, kny, mp100, pmmm, fmab
Last Thing Googled: Antigone by Sophocles & grocery store nye hours
Currently Working On: organizing college & work stuff, getting better @ makeup, getting better @ self-care, etc
No Pressure Tag: literally anyone like if u wanna go ahead
#i can't wait till i finish orv so i can finally venture into the tags#like orv fans are like jjk fans spoilers galore fuck uuuu#ki log
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you know what i’m actually the most angry about in the song of achilles? briseis. in the iliad, her entire relationship with achilles is informed by the fact that she is, first and foremost, his property. tsoa rejects that and that is why it just… it’s not bad but it isn’t the iliad. the iliad isn’t about characters, it’s about war. fundamentally, it is a story about war. and watering down the relationship between achilles and briseis is one of the most frustrating losses because the nature of their relationship is dependent on the fact that they exist in conflict. their connection does not exist without it. tsoa removes the looming sense of war and makes it into a tragedy because of the loss of patroclus and achilles but the tragedy is woven into more than the loss of life or relationships. the tragedy is the relationships formed in war just as much as it is the ones lost and removing the core tenet of briseis’ role in the iliad, that she has lost all autonomy because that is a function of conflict, is just so disappointing.
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I absolutely NEED your takes on tsoa I think I may die if I don't hear someone else talk about it
well they're kind of /neg so if you don't want to hear me complain about it for a little while then probably scroll away sfjdkj
so like i don't think madeline miller is a bad writer. i think her writing is pretty banging actually. I just think some of the ways she took her book was a little. hmm. WELL. it wasn't for me ^_^. Also i didn't read the whole thing bc i did not have interest in finishing it but i have skimmed most of it. The way Patroclus is characterized irks me especially like bro... he got defanged (in service of playing into, in my personal opinion, some :| mlm dynamics). i really do prefer more the patroclus in the iliad where his relationship with achilles was on more even footing. and he was a warrior! a damn good one! and not at all immune to getting caught up in the bloodlust and violence of the war! the trojans literally have to have apollo kill him because he was going on a huge murder spree, achilles' armor or no! i can see what miller was going for w the stuff about portraying the brutality and cruelty of war ig but to me that's a really odd leap to make for the characterization of a main character. Patroclus is nice, ofc. i love that guy. but mannnn let him kill people let him be affected by culture of his time let him folly!
also i feel like the book wouldn't have gained mainstream popularity with the. ........... crowd if patrochilles' characters hadn't been warped into something that could be crammed into easily digestible weird gay tropes. (though i don't think this was the intention of madeline miller.)
next thing. ehehem once again the (sort of) sanitation of shitty aspects of the iliad like... briseis. idk. i don't always want to read the silence of the girls type bare and brutal recounts of all the shit that happened to women. sure. and i guess it mightve been a precipice point for a lot of people who want to enjoy the protagonists? but it also feels weird how it's glossed over like the book's going wink nudge don't worry guys patrochilles are one of the good ones unlike all the other greeks. there's nuance to be had, though tsoa just seems to skate around it instead.
and oh this is an interesting one kind of related to the previous point but the way most of the women are portrayed is a little.. well why are they all set up as antagonists of a sort (except briseis). why are women like deidameia and thetis set up as obstacles between the two protagonist's epic gay love story or whatever, with only the barest of sympathy for their positions in the world?
+ every time i go into the iliad tag i have to scroll past 294020 tsoa posts where everyone acts like a marvel character and honestly, things have earned my undeserved scorn for less. lol
sighs deeply. anyways. it's a fine book. it's literally fine. whatever man there's way worse books and i am speaking from experience. it was kind of fun i liked the odydio snippets. i don't think it's ruining greek mythology or killing people or whatever, I'm just too bitchy to set my differing opinions aside about it. i would know him by touch or whatever that one went is a pretty epic quote. i have another line from it in a tentative webweave document rn. it's pretty cool but i hope queer retellings of greek myths get better from here on out. grits teeth. whatever man
#and obligatory im not upset if other people like it etc. like you do you#i went through the book to double check some things lol. if i want to get pissy and complain abt something at least im gonna get it right#heyyyy it could be worse! it could be worse#asks#tsoa crit
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Artemis at Zagreus: hey, if you ever see that guy, achilles, from the trojan war, you go tell him i think he’s the best ok
me, from the other side of the laptop screen: weren’t you the goddess who demanded the leader of the greek army heading to troy for the trojan war to make a human sacrifice to you just so that you can stop having a fit over them killing a deer or was that somebody else
#AND that girl only came because she was tricked into thinking she was marrying achilles. what a mess#i know I KNOW certain parts of greek myth just has no place in this game but still its so weird that artemis was fangirling over achilles#considering 1. if we are going with whatever version tsoa went with. then she didn't want the trojan war to happen at all#which makes more sense than 'agamamon killed a sacred deer'. they were heading to her brother's city guys. what sacred deer#like i know the gods are the assholes they really are in tsoa and that's not compatible with hades supergiant games. but you know#and second of all weren't her twin brother mad at achilles for...variety of similar reasons depending which versions of the myth you go with#i personally go with iliad's and ignore certain author' reconstructions aka post-homer interpretations of lost poems#in which case he was just trying to stop achilles from sacking troy before it is troy's time to fall#hey apollo did you know your twin sister likes that guy you killed a few centuries back what are your thoughts#i would like apollo in this game tho. isn't he the god of medicine? dude his boons would have some serious health boost i bet#but that'd be too op for this game. and we already have artemis giving us all the good crits perks.#mae overshares#also zag actually went and told achilles what artemis said...bro do you have to#and he was like all 'she is right! you ARE the best :D' sweet child you only think that because you did not know him when he was alive#i can't help but to agree with zag tho. achilles really was the best.....but only in this game. IN. THIS. GAME#i was busy being mad at achilles for the parts of the latter half of tsoa i didnt realize the story was making me incredibly sad#and madaline already reinterpreted the story in a way that makes achilles sympathetic and appealing to modern audience#while staying true to his character as depicted in iliad
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i think it just ultimately boils down to the fact that the trojan war is perhaps one of the most rich and intricate stories in all of greek mythology, and miller's retelling was basically just gay boys go brr lol
which isn't bad per se, as i did v much enjoy the prose and patrochilles was without a doubt my favorite part (and also the only well developed, prominent part 💀) but it does mean it's an extremely simplistic one note retelling of the trojan war that suffocates all the beautiful nuance and complexities that originally made it compelling, and thus the overarching retelling is a shallow shell of its predecessors.
furthermore, it's kind of embarrassing how people laud her skill with her craft when she could only truly maintain one aspect of her story from start to finish in its full strength, and no semblance of a driving plot or morals or point of view or literally anything else came to fruition.
#if u want a nice tragic romance w some poet level lines u will have a good time#but do not expect more than that <3#tsoa#patrochilles#madeline miller crit#k#mkay i'm done now lol bye 👋
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tbh i havent read song of achilles but i was very into the whole story some years ago and your complaints about patroclus reminded me of this post and had to go find it okayophelia()tumblr()com/post/62133192522
yesss that’s such a good post
I really just?? love the iliad so much, I think it’s such an important text and it hold so much meaning for me, and to see a writer just completely misinterpret it (in my opinion) and then to get famous for it and to influence people who haven’t read the iliad into thinking that’s what the characters are like? it really bugs me.
Because the iliad is a damn hard read, and tbh you have to study it or at least read it with notes to really get it to the full extent, and i understand that song of achilles is way more accessible - and that’s great! or it would be if tsoa was any good and didn’t butcher the characters.
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nobody in the tsoa fandom talks abt it but hector's death was actually really sad, and if i were achilles i would've killed him too but also hector is one of the nicest characters in the iliad, like this man just loves his wife and wants to live, and miller oversimplified the war and created distinct heroes and villains in that regard 😔
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another thing that does not make sense is thetis' distaste for achilles lying with a man
i have already briefly spoke of the demonization of women in tsoa, but jesus christ this came from absolutely fucking nowhere
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things ik to be true:
1. i cannot take him seriously if he keeps calling alex love unironically. it might be hot irl, i wouldn't know, but if this fucking brit doesn't start acting normal i'm gonna lose it 😭😭😭
2. alex is oblivious but not in the cute way, in the dumb way, in the how can you be so narcissistic and call yourself the golden boy and the witty one when you're this dumb. how are u even in the political spectrum
3. this entire thing reads like a middle grade but with a lot of unnecessary sex and even more unnecessary cursing, both of which i am never opposed to, but i am when it's so unnecessary that i cringe. also mg vibes x sex is a very weird combination. ALSO i thought this was ya why is everyone getting some 💀⚰
4. some non mlm wrote this, and i do not know their sexual orientation, so as for the sexualization of bi females (nora) it is their word against mine, but i know for SURE the author is not a gay man, and it is unsettling to see so many white non-mlm build their writing careers off fetishizing mlm
5. it's the kind of book you start to read and it seems okay and ur like yeah i'll push through, but then you start skimming before you know it, and then you're full on skipping sections, and you're doing this to get to the "good parts," only there aren't even good parts it's just makeout sessions that are v cringy once again w that mg vibe and some semblance of political drama that makes 0 sense or smth about feminism idk the details are hazy i am perpetually 🤨
6. i do not mind rom coms but this is neither good rom nor good com and to each their own but also no the people who recced this to me need to develop better taste 😭😭😭
#NDGDKSHSLS WHAT EVEN IS THIS BOOK????#man ik i was snippy w the people who recced tsoa too and then ended up succumbing and absolutely adoring that book but at least then there#were some people who recced it whose opinions i mostly tended to agree w so i somewhat knew i would enjoy it#THIS i pushed off for like over a year bc i knew i would not but the reccs did not stop all from people i do not care about yet here we are#😭😭😭😭😭😭#k#rwrb#anti rwrb#usually i wait like 3 days in my honeymoon period w books before beginning to crit them but GOD I'M SO NHDJSJGSKSGSKS STOP 😭🔫
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I am loving your tsoa takes. I've had the same issues with the book
yeah like don't get me wrong i thoroughly enjoyed it and have not stopped thinking of it the past few days
but anybody who's even slightly familiar w other retellings of the trojan war, esp. the infamous iliad, is going to have some logic issues w it lol
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other things that make no sense: why does thetis even hate patroclus she literally didn't and even protected him for achilles' sake in the iliad why is miller so insistent on demonizing women lol this is a consistent theme w all women in tsoa
hmm as much as i liked tsoa tho, some logic def went on the back burner when miller adapted the fall of troy to be mostly abt love and less abt other greek themes
like one thing that made me v confused was how apollo gently flicks patroclus off the wall he's climbing moments before his death the first time, and then patroclus the narrator just says he must've been demented when he climbed it again and apollo was less understanding and threw him down lmfao
like wdym u were demented idk abt u but if a god flicked me off a wall, i would only climb it again if i did not care if i died, which patroclus clearly did 💀💀💀
in homer's iliad however this makes more sense, as it boils down to the age old greek moral of hubris, and patroclus is not so meek and humble as he is in tsoa, and by reclimbing in the iliad it is a direct example of comparing oneself to the greek gods, believing yourself to be a worthy opponent and just as special, neglecting to heed achilles' sage warning to get in and get out and instead pursuing glory and mindless vengeance, and that ultimately is one of the main contributors to his death 🤔
#maybe she thinks she's gaining historically accurate brownie points by doing this but no it comes off as annoying + not like other girls#tsoa#patrochilles#the iliad#patroclus#apollo#achilles#k#greek mythology#it is 12am i think i should let this story rest but unfortunately grief makes people mad so 🙄#hmm#madeline miller crit#thetis
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7. why does every gay ship written by some woman (and rickald) have some brown boy paired w some blond lol there's nothing wrong w this but also that's weird and alex x henry want what valgrace has and valgrace wants what patrochilles has (or patrochilles wants what valgrace has--followers' choice 😚)
things ik to be true:
1. i cannot take him seriously if he keeps calling alex love unironically. it might be hot irl, i wouldn't know, but if this fucking brit doesn't start acting normal i'm gonna lose it 😭😭😭
2. alex is oblivious but not in the cute way, in the dumb way, in the how can you be so narcissistic and call yourself the golden boy and the witty one when you're this dumb. how are u even in the political spectrum
3. this entire thing reads like a middle grade but with a lot of unnecessary sex and even more unnecessary cursing, both of which i am never opposed to, but i am when it's so unnecessary that i cringe. also mg vibes x sex is a very weird combination. ALSO i thought this was ya why is everyone getting some 💀⚰
4. some lady wrote this, and i do not know her orientation, so as for the sexualization of bi females (nora) it is her word against mine, but i know for SURE the author is not a gay man, and it is unsettling to see so many white women build their writing careers off fetishizing mlm
5. it's the kind of book you start to read and it seems okay and ur like yeah i'll push through, but then you start skimming before you know it, and then you're full on skipping sections, and you're doing this to get to the "good parts," only there aren't even good parts it's just makeout sessions that are v cringy once again w that mg vibe and some semblance of political drama that makes 0 sense or smth about feminism idk the details are hazy i am perpetually 🤨
6. i do not mind rom coms but this is neither good rom nor good com and to each their own but also no the people who recced this to me need to develop better taste 😭😭😭
#og tags:#NDGDKSHSLS WHAT EVEN IS THIS BOOK????#man ik i was snippy w the people who recced tsoa too and then ended up succumbing and absolutely adoring that book but at least then there#were some people who recced it whose opinions i mostly tended to agree w so i somewhat knew i would enjoy it#THIS i pushed off for like over a year bc i knew i would not but the reccs did not stop all from people i do not care about yet here we are#😭😭😭😭😭😭#k#rwrb#anti rwrb#usually i wait like 3 days in my honeymoon period w books before beginning to crit them but GOD I'M SO NHDJSJGSKSGSKS STOP 😭🔫
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the only thing i can think of from the iliad which miller might've drawn thetis' hatred of homosexuality from is when thetis says that one should lie with women, but in the iliad it is not meant to wound, but rather to soothe. she also says one should eat good food or something like that, and achilles frequently lies with women so it is not out of the question or particularly harmful
it is not historically accurate either, as zeus had male lovers, poseidon had pelops, dionysus had someone, apollo had quite a few, etc. it reveals more of what miller believes is a progressive agenda rather than what is and it is cumbersome
another thing that does not make sense is thetis' distaste for achilles lying with a man
i have already briefly spoke of the demonization of women in tsoa, but jesus christ this came from absolutely fucking nowhere
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