#tros critical

[bluntblade]

Not to jab at anyone using "the trio" in a Sequels context, but I feel a twinge of pain every time see it, in the part of my heart that loves Rose Tico. That ought to have been a quartet, damnit.

[stonegoldsxcrxt]

ppl argue that Vader is “redeemed”— I guess I can see where they’re coming from, but really I think Vader is forgiven by Luke, and the narrative is kind enough to forgive him too. This is helped, of course, by the prequel storylines and our extensive understanding of Anakin’s character, which is that rarely was Anakin presented with very many choices, and he often chose wrong when he was, sometimes out of anger but mostly out of a very intense love and desire to protect those around him that he cared about. They don’t say that “the road to hell is paved with good intentions” for nothing, after all. Luke seems to understand his father at one point thought he was doing what was right, and has the kindness to forgive him, but not absolve him of all crime. The original trilogy, being largely about Luke and generally following Luke’s feelings, offers Vader a lenient sentence for a lifetime of crime. For example, you might expect that if Han was the ‘main character’ you’d be presented with an entirely different point of view. Even Leia at the end of rotj— knowing full well her father is Anakin/Vader and her brother is hosting his funeral pyre— doesn’t seem to care, laughing and enjoying the Ewok party, and she doesn’t have to care. We aren’t mad at Leia for presumably not feeling the same way about her father that Luke does. Thus my argument is that Vader is forgiven by Luke after a selfless act which saves the latter’s life, not washed of all sin and guilt from the narrative. Anakin and Vader are the same person, condemned to death to deal with the sum of his choices, but forgiven by a son who loves him, who he died for.

This is where the sequels fail to convince me I should offer the same treatment to Kylo Ren. In a film trilogy that largely ends up being about him (much to my and many others chagrin), I rarely find myself understanding why he repeated chooses evil. Perhaps in tfa the lines from Leia about snoke whispering to him as a child were meant to imply he’s been being corrupted since birth, but in theory when snoke is killed in tlj, shouldn’t Kylo’s behavior also become altered? As in, he should be able to think more clearly about his decisions? There’s wobbly logic throughout— in tfa Leia says it’s snoke, in tfa Kylo claims his choices are largely motivated by the fact he worships his grandfather, then in tlj the narrative tries to push us to sympathize with him by telling us Luke tried to kill him (at 23, btw— common misconception that the incident happened in his childhood, which it did not).

Arguably, if I were to be led to believe snoke corrupted “Ben”, then the events of tlj— wherein Kylo kills snoke yet remains Kylo instead of reverting to Ben— suggest Kylo actively is choosing evil of his own volition. If I were to believe Kylo is acting out because he idolizes his grandfather, Vader, then Kylo is actively seeking to chose evil of his own volition. If I were to believe Luke attempting to kill “Ben” caused Kylo’s fall, I would still believe Kylo is choosing evil simply to choose evil, seeing as how an attempt on your life is scarring, but not grounds to murder others. Where Anakin’s misguided actions were motivated by fear of those he loves being hurt, Kylo… kind of just seems like he wants to be bad. All of this would be fine, compelling even, as a villain, but outside of tfa, the narrative absolutely refuses to let Kylo be what he wants to be— a villain!

For some reason, starting in tlj, the audience is repeatedly expected to excuse Kylo’s behavior. Sympathizing with an antagonist isn’t always bad, per say, but it generally comes with some sort of buy-in as to why we should care. Absent that, it kind of just seems like the narrative is bending over backwards to forgive a guy who doesn’t really seem to want forgiveness. Mutilating Rey’s character in particular to have her insist there’s good in him when he never hesitates to stalk, physically or emotionally torture, or gaslight her any chance he gets becomes baffling. Unlike Luke with Vader, she really has no reason to care this much about Kylo, or even believed Kylo IS CAPABLE of earning her forgiveness— so the narrative starts spewing more ridiculous premise to try and force a reason for her to forgive him, when he’s done nothing to indicate he WANTS to be forgiven. Though subtle, even Vader visibly has hesitation when confronting Luke— he deals him serious blows, but no where near what we know is the extent of his power. Kylo doesn’t hold back from hurting Rey any chance he gets.

Also bizarrely in comparison to Vader, Kylo is weirdly absolved of his responsibility regarding the devastation the first order has caused and allowed to revert back to “Ben” before actually facing any consequences in terms of story. It comes down to this: he is stabbed, hallucinates his father (who canonically CANNOT be a force ghost— Han in tros is NOT a force ghost, supported by both his lack of glowing blue appearance and the fact that Han doesn’t have the force), hallucinates his father forgiving him and thus forgiving himself via Han’s imagined proxy, then is suddenly Ben again. He has made no choice up to this point which allows us as an audience to understand why he deserves forgiveness from others— just an abrupt 180 in character. It comes off clunky and gauche because it is; Kylo, after a lifetime of choosing evil willingly, using his autonomy to hurt others and gain power for himself, suddenly thinks better of it for no reason. We as the audience are suddenly also expected to do a very quick 180– see! He’s good now! It is no where near as natural as seeing Luke’s journey with Vader because there is no realistic way to interpret the scene; we are forced as the audience to accept this random new “Ben” character as if he’s a different person— an affliction I might also add that doesn’t befall Anakin until he dies, meaning we see a broken Anakin still scarred and wheezing in the Vader suit— again, lasting, permanent effects of his behavior. Where as Kylo is just suddenly “Ben”— new wardrobe, no facial scarring. As if woken from some sort of trance that narratively speaking, if you wanted me to be more compelled, he should have woken from a whole film ago. It’s as if nothing he did as Kylo mattered at all, which is nigh impossible to accept when it involves literal genocide. It’s implied at the end of tlj that he Made. His. Choice. by not only remaining with the first order after snoke is slain but becoming the supreme leader!

In fact it’s the entire opposite of Vader— Vader rises up against his master and chooses to save his son. Kylo rises up against his master and chooses to clench power for himself.

I could only dream of a world where tros was brave enough to allow Kylo what he wants— to be truly corrupted and evil. I could only dream of a world where the sequels explored the impact and importance of that choice, and how to confront an evil that is no longer forgivable

[limeadeislife]

That moment in The Rise of Skywalker where Poe says "I'm not Leia" and Finn says "that's for damn sure" was such a "he would not fucking say that" moment to me. Poe named Finn!! Whether you ship them or not, they love each other!

[softgreylo]

If i had a nickel for every time i watched a story do a 180 at the last second to kill off a lifelong grooming victim whose survival and/or redemption had been heavily foreshadowed, thereby ruining the themes and coherence of the entire narrative to create an ending that angered the character's fans and haters alike, i'd have two nickels. Which isn't a lot but it's weird it happened twice

[caripr94]

Unpopular opinion: I know that a lot of Star Wars fans are peeved about the tragedy of the sequels negating much of the happy ending of the original trilogy, but honestly, that's actually one of my favorite parts of the sequels. Why? Because it means that well-intentioned hypocritical nutheads like Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Bail Organa don't get to get away with underhanded, morally unethical stunts like separating the twins from each other, kidnapping them from their biological families, lying to them about their heritage, grooming them against their own father, and using them to try to restore their own power and get everything back to the old status quo that got them into this mess in the first place. We all get to see the consequences of such tactics and nobody (who's paying attention) gets to say that "this and that" was okay because everything turned out fine in the end.

Because even though Luke managed to break the cycle of darkness and abuse on his end by the end of the original trilogy, we never really saw that happening with Leia on her end, nor did we see many of those family issues from that separation and manipulation or many of the problems with the Old Jedi Order or any of the problems with the Old Republic get even addressed. Many of the underlying issues of the prequels that came from people not learning from their mistakes just got swept under the rug. At least with the tragic events that happened in the sequel era (at least in TFA, before Lucasfilm messed everything up in the subsequent sequels, which I don't count as canon), we get to see many of the effects of such corrupt and dysfunctional methods that these "heroic" elders used, and in some way, there's some poetic justice in that, even at such a high price. And I know that many of you are saying that "Star Wars is supposed to be a fairy tale or myth; it's not supposed to be realistic", but let me remind you that not every fairy tale has gotten a happily ever after (at least in its early versions) and it was actually quite rare for mythological heroes to get a happily ever after either.

Disclaimer: This is mostly about TFA, which was much more consistent with the original lore. I acknowledge that the later two sequels didn't have as much consistency or respect for the original lore (or even with TFA), so I don't count them as canon.

[frumfrumfroo]

Is it weird that I feel sadder about Rey than I do Ben after TROS? I mean, sure Ben died and he had a nonsensical character during the film but the entire core of his character wasn't eliminated. I feel so much sadder about Rey and miss her story in the first two films more, knowing the filmmakers didn't care about her to the extent that they just saw her as a vehicle for legacy backstories and flattery of older male characters. I know a lot of people on all sides of the SW fandom still resent her after TROS I just feel deeply sad and miss her.

A lot of people feel the way you do, I saw that sentiment frequently in the aftermath.

I stand by my statement that Rey is far deader as a character than Ben ever will be, but personally I care a lot more about the destruction of the saga as a whole than I do about the destruction of the ST and its protagonist.

[antianakin]

I find it very funny that when Rey says "I am all the Jedi" because she just heard a bunch of their voices, she also actually heard from one Sith.

So, she is all the Jedi, and apparently one Sith.

[secretsalute]

Ashley: Fearne

Laura: Imogen

Liam: Orym

Matt: we've only had Planerider Ryn for ten minutes but I love her. I also love Allura

Marisha: Laudna

Sam: FCG and Taryn are tied

Taliesin: Ashton

Travis: Fjord and Chetney are tied.

what are your favourite characters from the players? i’ll go first! 

ASHLEY: Fearne Calloway

LAURA: Jester Lavorre 

LIAM: Caleb Widogast

MATT: Artagan

MARISHA: Laudna

SAM: Scanlan Shorthalt

TALISEN: Caduceus Clay

TRAVIS: Grog Strongjaw

[hamliet]

Less of a question but I was never an avid manga reader till 2019 and mha was the first manga I kept track of weekly, and I read Tokyo ghoul after it ended, and seeing everyone be dissatisfied with how Tokyo ghoul ended after keeping up weekly is something I’m reminded of after seeing the latest chapter of mha. So this is what it feels like to witness 6 years of a character you hold in high regard be undermined(to put it lightly). I’m rather sad, but I can’t help but feel fondness for shigaraki even if the way he ended wasn’t satisfying, how do u feel about how mha has gone?

Yeah it does feel very reminiscent of Tokyo Ghoul in that they just went "ah yes, killing the right people is actually how we solve world issues." Which I find morally reprehensible, but also genuinely bad writing because the story as a whole doesn't support this message.

@linkspooky explained in her meta yesterday why Deku has completely failed as a character, and why the manga has failed thematically as a story. I'm just gonna say I completely agree with Link.

To be fair, I'm not sure Shigaraki is dead dead, but either way, it's bad writing and it doesn't conclude his arc with any sort of satisfactory element. Like, why would Shigaraki see Deku as different than anyone else who tried to punch him? That's nonsensical and written from the POV of an audience, not from Shigaraki's POV. It's like in Star Wars when Rey calls herself "Rey Skywalker" when she knew Luke for 3 days and none of the people she was actually close to (Leia, Han, Ben) were Skywalkers. That's writing for the audience, with their perspective, ignoring the logic of your story. It defies believability because the character does not have that perspective. It's "forced" because the audience can see the hand of the author.

If Shigaraki is dead dead... Not gonna Star Wars this one again, but since I also hated the ending of The Rise of Skywalker, I must make a comparison. The idea that Deku may have saved Shigaraki's heart but couldn't save his body (which to be honest, nothing in the actual chapter supports, but if he stays dead might be the argument) is still bad writing. Why? Because to Shigaraki didn't even make the decision himself. He didn't sacrifice anything. How can his heart be saved if he had nothing to do with it? Saving an object is easy as pie. Saving a person is different, and that's what the whole story has been about. Like, in TROS, Kylo Ren gave his life for Rey! Was it stupid? Yes! But at least his "saved heart" did something. Shigaraki's saved heart did what exactly?

So then, is the message that Deku failed? Then why isn't it framed as a failure? Why was BNHA never set up to be a grimdark tragedy? If he failed, then shouldn't he have a miserable ending? Unless it's "heroes always become bad guys and life is unfair," but then shouldn't Deku be framed critically?

Basically, Horikoshi can't come back writing-wise from this in BNHA, and it's sad to see.

Horikoshi's biggest flaw throughout the entire story was that he kept flip-flopping on what he wanted to say, and made the characters more about his trying to please every single fan than about being, well, characters to explore important questions he has that are worthwhile. And you can do this while still having a "cool" factor!

Instead the characters tell us one thing while cocooning Deku in the sweet bliss that no one ever has on this earth--being 100% right all the time. And it's sad, because BNHA had so much potential as a story to challenge its audience and entertain too.

I thought even if it flopped in some aspects it'd at least get this right. It's disappointing.

Anyways every day that goes by I want to send Isayama and his editors flowers for actually writing a thematically coherent ending, even if some aspects were dropped or messy along the way.

[bluntblade]

I sometimes wonder exactly what the thought process was on reducing Rose's role so much, and honestly at points I suspect that Abrams and Terrio just had no idea what to do with her. "She's... nothing's mysterious about her! There's no secret reveal I can pull somewhere in the second act!"

[tljisthegoat]

Reylo Making Star Wars Beautiful Again

I want sooo desperately to feel the excitement I felt for Star Wars when I got back into Star Wars because of Reylo & Ben Solo.

I want Reylo to have the happily ever after they've fought valiantly for since The Last Jedi.

Disney deserves all the mockery & criticism for making Star Wars into a pale, disgusting imitation of what it used to be.

We all know that Disney's grasp on what to do with Star Wars is so comically out-of-touch that it's a wonder how they've survived this long.

The more depressing thing is that Star Wars has no clear happy ending after basically erasing TLJ & having TROS be the end to The Skywalker Family (just kill me...why make us suffer like this? You know how depressing it is to know how little love has saved our heroes even though it saved fuckin' DARTH VADER?!)

[caripr94]

And the thing is that, as I mentioned in the following post, the Prequels actually created a need for the Sequels because they showed just how messed up things were before and even after the OT, and it presented several issues that were barely (if at all) addressed by the end of ROTJ. The corruption of the Jedi Order was barely addressed and it seemed that the corruption of the Old Republic and the damage done to the Skywalker family (especially on Leia's end) by Bail Organa and the remaining Jedi Councillors was just swept under the rug. These issues were bound to have terrible consequences later on, especially if nobody learned from them. Star Wars may be a mythology, but the thing about mythologies is that it's actually rare for the heroes to get a totally happily ever after, especially if there's still past mistakes and underlying flaws to address.

I wouldn't rely on George Lucas's claims that the Prequels completed the Saga, because he goes back and forth between that and saying that he'd had plans for a 9-film Saga since ESB or ROTJ. Because of this, the Sequels really did have a lot of potential and TFA really showed it, especially it was co-written by Lawrence Kasdan, who had helped George Lucas with ESB and ROTJ and had probably been let in on those early Sequel plans. After TFA, however, it's clear that Disney Lucasfilm strayed away from that and tried to do their own thing, and when JJ Abrams tried to get back to that with TROS, they hijacked the project and reshot everything so that it was almost completely different from had been originally intended.

Disney SW fans who claim to love Anakin but think the Prequels suck, you're part of the problem. And the OT purists who hate the Prequels and then turn around and blame them for why Disney SW sucks...yeah, you're part of the problem too.

One of the many reasons the Disney SW 'Sequels' were so terrible and destructive was because the people making them decided to completely ignore the importance of the Prequels and reject them as an intrinsic part of the saga. And they seemed to believe they were pandering to 'what the fans wanted' by doing this. But the Prequels are half the entire story as Lucas told it, and they just threw it out the window. The Prequels COMPLETED the saga. But Disney pretended that the saga wasn't complete yet and that it was up to them to do so. Instead of just making 'interquel' material from the beginning (like Rogue One, etc), they arrogantly took it upon themselves to 'finish' a story that was already completed back in 2005. And in doing so, Disney also decided to reframe the saga into something decidedly lesser (a repetitive grimdark story where the cycle 'wasn't broken ackshually', instead of an uplifting and transcendent mythic fairytale), but one which would allow them to continue making 'new canon' material indefinitely (cause that is more lucrative for them). But the Prequels had already reframed the saga and given it a very specific meaning. Without the Prequels, ALL of Star Wars loses that meaning. And without a happy ending for the OT characters and an unequivocally positive resolution to the their storyline, the entire saga is rendered into a perpetual tragedy. So, unless and until so-called 'Star Wars fans' can acknowledge and embrace just how intrinsic the Prequels are to the fictional story they supposedly 'like', they will be running around in circles trying to blame Disney's failures on the very thing that Disney so carelessly ignored and discarded in the first place.

[limeadeislife]

It's funny to me that the "live slug reaction" meme didn't show up until more than two years after The Rise of Skywalker was released. It's like the Star Wars fandom had to take two years just processing all of the multiple substantial flaws in the movie before anyone could move on to noticing and joking about a minor detail like the funny slug guy at the end

[marklikely]

tlj and tros are such a symbiotic relationship in being garbage bc tlj created a shit second entry therefore making it almost impossible for the trilogy to end well and then tros came along and tried to like. pander to and validate the absolute worst bad faith criticisms of tlj, while also doubling down on all its worst aspects. they made each other worse <3

[clementineskesh]

the thing that consistently frustrates me the most about AMCA is like for all their sequel series criticisms they like never touch on the blatant and awful racist treatment of john boyega in tlj and tros theyre so busy talking about adam driver and shit and never even acknowledge that john did a great job and was given less than nothing over and over again

[frumfrumfroo]

Imagine making a film series like Star Wars and framing the triumphant romantic kiss as 'goodbye'... I still can't believe they made that film. Obvs that's probably how Daisy Ridley interprets it, not necessarily how it was framed (which was lacking narrative altogether), but it's still miserable. It's not even Romeo & Juliet vaunted romantic tragedy. It just sucks.

I do pity the poor anons who are waiting for some sort of different outcome with a new ST film. Studio executives will never look at the critical failure of TROS (it was a commercial success though) and think the takeaway was 'maybe we shouldn't have fractured the SW myth', it's 'oh, okay, let's never deviate ever again, damn that blasted TLJ' - just look at how JJ and co. tried to retroject TROS' failures onto the previous film. Course correction, course correction. Rey Film, if it gets made, will be DO YOU REMEMBER THIS? self-flagellating apology. Ben Solo will never return.

Yeah, anyone trying to come up with any positive spin on it, including desperate attempts to see it as effective tragedy, are doomed to failure. Only by completely ignoring the context and taking the moment by itself carried only on the actors' performances as continuity from TLJ without any of the terrible fucking tros script in the way can the kiss actually mean something.

As soon as you try to make tros into any kind of story or draw any kind of sincere message from it, you immediately run into the brick wall of what a soulless, nonsensical piece of trash it is.

I had a whole rant about how it's not Romeo and Juliet and I am still so annoyed how often people draw the comparison, both utterly missing the point of R&J and giving tros credit which it does not deserve by imagining it assigns any meaning to Ben's death whatsoever.

Yep. We've seen them do nothing but triple down. They have no idea why the movie was such an embarrassing wet fart. Rey the sexless eternal child will never be challenged again, she'll go on a worship tour of references, places, and objects to do reverence as the Brand Avatar. She's not a character any more and she's never going to be again.