#torashi's edit

[torashisama]

Siuaraine : Je te laisserai des mots

What do you think is the story that I'm trying to tell ?

[torashisama]

Sophie : Ingrid x Siuan

4th edit, i'm getting better 🥹

[torashisama]

WoT about: "The writers keep giving time to plots that aren't bad, but do nothing to actually serve the story".

Disclaimer : As always, it's long.

Alll of these comments are from a discussion I had with a book reader in the comments of a post on S3E01 being written by S1E06 and S2E07 writer: Justine Juel Gillmer. Basically, the original poster was celebrating more Siuan (however it might be) and/or a possible Siuanraine reunion in S3.

Book Reader 1:

In a story about the potential end of all things, I can't honestly say that I care about Suianraine. Side romance plots are fine, but they're not what WoT is really about. I hope they give a little ship time to those who are craving it, but they really need to work on the Nerf Reborn. He's way weaker in the show than he is in the books. We need a Rocky montage to put the Dragon back on track.

Book reader 2 :

One of my biggest issues with this show. The writers keep giving time to plots that aren't *bad*, but do nothing to actually serve the story.

Moiraines family scenes? Well written and acted, but that's 30-40 minutes that we could have had in Falme, or building up the Horn, or generally building the legend of the dragon.

Book reader 1 :

Yep. The show wastes precious time on things which aren't central to the plot.

Torashi :

That mostly has to do with the fact that the show is not about Rand but about Moiraine and specifically about Moiraine's Quest which is something that most book readers seems to have overlooked and that's the most important and fundamental change from the books yet it's overlooked when it comes to understanding how and why everything plays out the way it does.

If we had to choose a character and declare them the main one for the show, it would be Moiraine. That's the main difference that explains most of the complaints bookcloaks and book readers may have with the show.

The books are about Rand. Here, it's about "Moiraine's Quest", and it gives the show more room to explore the characters deemed as side characters and one of the most interesting group of people in this universe in my opinion: Aes Sedai's and their warders.

Both are telling the same story but not from the same POV, and that changes a bunch of things and it includes what gets showed or not.

Book reader 1 :

I certainly didn't overlook that the show is focused on Mo. That is the biggest problem, as you say (pre post edit: I did not say that the the Mo focus was a problem, never had actually) . Book Mo isn't anywhere near a main character after TEOTW, so it's a very questionable decision to promote her to a main, outside of real world "politics". Pike is the most recognized actress **and** she's a producer.

While I get that non-readers don't mind it, I and millions of other readers waited 39 years for the books to be turned into a show.

We weren't waiting on Siuan and Moiraine.

Torashi:

I'm not saying that you're overlooking this but that those who did read the books tends to do so and fail to realise( pre post edit: or recognise really) that the things they're complaining about usually makes sense as Rand is not the main character anymore.

The pov's are mostly Moiraine's, and while it's different from the books, it doesn't mean that it's not good. The story is just told differently, and a lot of you guys fail to realise that while it's not what you hoped for, you at least get to experience the same story told another way and in the same world you grew up loving but on screen.

I understand that it's disappointing as it's probably not what you guys imagined and expected the show would be if you ever got to see it, but Rand, as the main character, probably wouldn't have worked as needed exactly because it's been so long since the books.

The classic hero trope is not as appealing as it used to be for TV, and switching the focus and putting it onto the Gandalfs of the WoT world probably was better so it ended up as the Moiraine's Quest show and not as the Randland show. It's also probably because it's usually better if most actors in a fantasy show are unknown so that their reputation and previous roles do not taint the ones they'll have in the show.

( pre post edit : in case some people don't get why I'm comparing them, it's to emphasise that all of these fantasy shows have 1 or 2 of their main cast and characters as the biggest stars so that they don't have to rely only on the existing fandom but can also count on their main celebrity to bring a wider audience (advertising aside) which allows for the rest of the cast to be lesser known or straight-up debuting and/or unknown actors)

For ex, Matt Smith and Paddy Considine probably are the most recognisable actors of HOTD (HBO) and they're brothers in the show and have a close relationship ( in case you didn't see it, Matt is Daemon and Paddy is King Viserys)

WoT (Prime) has Rosamund Pike and Sophie Okonedo as their biggest star, and they have a close relationship.

(Fun fact : Sophie wasn't even supposed to be in the show and probably wouldn't have accepted if she was offered the part but Rosamund specifically wanted her to play her love interest and Sophie had to be written to personally by Ros so that she would accept the role ( anyone who knows or follows Sophie's work knows that her playing Siuan was as probable as a WoT + GoT crossover episode) )

The Witcher( Netflix) they really just needed Henry Cavill as he actually is a mainstream celebrity and was at the prime of his career when he took the role.

Good Omens (Prime) : David Tennant and Micheal Sheen, they lead and are close. ( they really could have been fine with David here. Actually, he probably has one of the most dedicated fan base I've seen because of his performance as the doctor ) ( they also have benedict cumberbatch but I'm sticking to mains biggest star + they're closest relationships )

Carnival Row (Prime and original so a lil different): Cara delevigne and Orlando Bloom, biggest stars + close relationship.

Good Omens is focused on the gandalfs ( Crowley & Aziraphale) again btw and it's one of amazon most successful adaptations.

The Witcher is also focused on the Gandalfs of their world: Geralt & Yennefer (by extension)

WoT switched it to be the same : Moiraine & Siuan (by extension).

What i'm saying is that basically most of the complaints are related to missing things from the books, the cast diversity, things people wish they could have seen or wishing Josha's (pre post edit :Rand) or Daniel's (pre post edit : Lan) characters where depicted as in the books or it's blaming the show (pre post edit: or really mainly and mostly Rafe and sometimes the rest of the writers) for spending time on things that actually makes sense when you recenter yourself in what the show is actually doing which is telling the story from Moiraine's POVs.

Siuan is important so she gets time, Lan is important so he gets time (pre post edit : mainly referencing the Aes sedai + Warder focused episodes of S1, from Ep4/5 to Ep6).

Liandrin is a problem and has a grudge against Mo that leads her to be a threat not only because she's a red and black ajah but also because of an ulterior reason so she gets time and is developed, Moiraine is pushing everyone away even the only 2 people she could allow herself to be close to during her mission because of her depression and allow herself no other choice but to go to Cairhien alone which happens to be her hometown so we get a family reunion and see how much her quest for Rand impacted her and her family too and how unusual it is even for an Aes sedai( Alanna's scenes with her family).

The main problem isn't that the story is being told through Moiraine's POV but that they only get 8 episodes of approximately 1 hour each to tell a story that required 14 books to finish, they clearly need more or longer episodes per season to include more of what they initially intended to put in each season. ( pre post edit : in case you didn't know Lan was supposed to start training the boys from s1. you can check here )

For reference, GOT had 10 episodes for each season until S7 for 8 season out of 10 initially planned, each episode falling anywhere between 1h and 1h22 max, and it's only 5 books out on 7 planned.

There, we have 8 episodes falling anywhere between 54 minutes to 1h10 min max each, planned to have 8 seasons for 14 books.

(Pre post edit : so far, and yes i went to check the longest ep so far was 1h10 min and it's s2 finale in case you were wondering)

Original poster reaction :

OMG!!! I wish I could give you gold for this comment. I am getting tired of when I post something about the show, instead of people focusing on the show, they wanna bring the "but but but the books did this and that and it is nowhere to be found on the show", like I don't care, let's focus on what's happening in the show and can we only talk about that? You should make another main post pointing this out and that for the sake of productive conversations, this sub should stop complaining about what isn't on the show from the books and more on what we actually get, if it works or not let's stick to that!

Torashi :

I understand, but I totally get their reaction, too. It's been so long for them that it's probably hard to accept anything else than what they expected or wished they had.

(pre post edit :

While i do understand the frustration, i do not understand why you think it makes it fine to ruin (or tarnish) the experience of genuine show only fans by complaining and shitting on the show for missing things or not doing it the way you wanted it to be instead of going:

"That's cool i wish they had room for this or that, in the books there's this or that and whatever, you should check the books."

"The story is so much more richer even though the focus is not on the guide in the books. It could be interesting for you to see it from another PoV too"

You'd actually make show-only fans want to read the books. You guys have been tainted by so much display of lack of respect and gratitude towards those making and/or enjoying the show that I think that you're actually deterring show only fans from the books by dividing the fandom as much as S8 divided GOT fans and by making people afraid to read them before the show ends because of how ugly your reactions are and have been. (You guys are literally associated to Whitecloacks).)

Torashi:

What's infuriating me, though, is that most of the books things they wish they saw when that's what they're complaining about are things that had to be cut because they were details and did not impact the rest of the story as much and instead of complaining about the show having an insane amount of episodes, episode's length and planned seasons for 14 books each individually as big as an encyclopedia they blame Rafe who actually loved the books and is a fan too, that's literally why the books got approved to be on screen. Rafe he's a book fan that got lucky the same way Brandon Sanderson was a book fan that got lucky back then. He probably wish he could put more things in there too.

Instead of complaining about the real problem, they should be battling against, its straight up hate (from bookcloaks) and endless complaints about things that does not matter as its really just "yes but in the books" for choices that does makes sense when they stop being Rand centric while watching a show that isn't about the hero's journey but about the Quest itself.

(Pre post edit thoughts:

Robert made a mistake by calling his books: The Wheel of Time ,to then make most of the pov's and most of the story revolve around a single character. He should have called it "The dragon Reborn" or something along those lines, because most of book readers' new complaints I've seen so far, really are just about it not being ridiculously focused on Rand's story or like the books when they know that this is not a "Randland" show but specifically one that corrects this major flaw from the books by using the only character close enough, interesting enough and refreshing enough to tell this story trought a different lense that allows more freedom to explore other "z-list"/ side characters who actually plays a role in all of this, it's actually painfull to see so many book readers fail to realise that Moiraine really is just the best character to tell this story as she actually knows what's going on behind the scene whereas Rand is just clueless.)

E.g: Rand apparently being powerless (or rather not as powerful as they wished he would be already).

Even though he was alone and in hiding for the last 6 months and only ever channelled because he lacked control and only got to Logain once, because he stayed close but still ignored him for as long as he could. Until he left with Selene to then be found by Mo, he still kills Ishy, Turak and his guards, takes the shield off Egwene (pre post edit: who's struggling btw) and looks like he doesn't even break a sweat.

Yet, all some book readers allow themselves to see is him being "powerless" because he didn't get a flashy 1vs1 against the bad guy even though it wouldn't makes sense with his current development (that was impacted by what ? Cuts because of time/budget constraints ) and Egwene literally is the strongest and most experienced of them all right now because of the Sanchean (pre post edit : the bright side of being a damane lol ) and is one of the most developed character of s2 from EF5 because of what needs to happen with Siuan at some point in S3 and where her (really theirs) story might be going.

(more on this topic here)

This ends here, feel free to share your opinion on this.