#this person claims this is about fire & blood you know the book where daemon cheated on rhaenyra with multiple women?

[requiemforthestars]

Ah, well, I see

Very curious about how Daemyras are coping

[samwpmarleau]

Why do people want Jon to be legitimate so bad? It's almost like they're buying into the stigma that being a bastard is bad and something to fix. And like you said, it's as simple as Rhaegar was married, Lyanna betrothed, and polygamy illegal. He's a bastard. And I really doubt Lyanna would be so naive (well her running away in itself is naive but different context imo) as to believe 'marrying' Rhaegar before her gods would somehow be noble or recognized.

Oh man. I have THINGS TO SAY.

For many people, I think he’s just a special snowflake and they want him to be legitimate so that he’s not “tainted” by bastardy or whatever and he gets to have Everything He’s Always Wanted™.

But also, I think it’s for how much of an identity crisis Jon has had with being a bastard and the irony that this scenario would bring to it. We’re inside Jon’s head so thoroughly and thus are keenly aware of how for his entire life he’s been at odds with his status, especially since he’s not the typical bastard. Catelyn is frigid towards him not because he’s illegitimate, but because Ned brought him home and has raised him alongside Robb, completely ignoring the shame it brings upon his wife.

Yet, Jon’s not the same as Robb — he has the same basic education, but he’s never been in line for Winterfell and by virtue of his very birth there was always an insurmountable divide between him and his siblings. Except for as much as Jon dislikes his place, he abides by it well — even when he’s presented with what he used to dream of (though note it says “later, when he was older, he had been ashamed of those dreams … even to dream otherwise seemed disloyal”), to become an actual Stark, he refuses it because he knows it would be a farce and that Winterfell belongs to Sansa, not him.

It stems too from him having no idea who his mother was. Obviously Ned can’t tell him the truth, but he doesn’t even tell him a lie. Was his mother a whore? A merchant’s daughter? Ashara Dayne? Wylla? Who was she? Jon (understandably) desperately wants her to be a respectable woman, but he’s told absolutely nothing about her so even that is merely a hope.

“Words won’t make your mother a whore. She was what she was, and nothing Toad says can change that. You know, we have men on the Wall whose mothers were whores.”

Not my mother, Jon thought stubbornly. He knew nothing of his mother; Eddard Stark would not talk of her. Yet he dreamed of her at times, so often that he could almost see her face. In his dreams, she was beautiful, and highborn, and her eyes were kind.

The sad thing here is that we know Jon’s mother was beautiful, highborn, and kind, but Jon doesn’t. And he thinks of this constantly:

I will ask him about my mother, he resolved. I am a man now, it is past time he told me. Even if she was a whore, I don’t care, I want to know.

He wanted to say that Lord Eddard would never dishonor himself, not even for love, yet inside a small sly voice whispered, He fathered a bastard, where was the honor in that? And your mother, what of his duty to her, he will not even say her name.

Interestingly, his mentions of her fade as the series goes on, as he accepts who he is. He didn’t have any friends in Winterfell save (most of) his family, yet at the Wall he’s surrounded by people he considers not only friends, but brothers. Who actually like him. Then, where once he had thought he could never achieve any high position, he is elected Lord Commander. Sure, that command is of the Night’s Watch and not Winterfell, but the position has been held by many respectable men, and no one ranks higher than he does. He is in charge. People listen to him.

Enter that irony. For five books we have Jon slowly growing into himself, finding love (even if it’s dubious consent love) and friendship and honor and repute despite being a bastard, then we find out his parents were not only married but his mother was a Stark and his father was the Targaryen crown prince. If circumstances were different, Jon would have grown up as third in line to the Iron Throne behind Rhaegar and Aegon. But that could only happen if Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, 100% legally, and if they could prove it and/or anyone actually believed them — it’s not enough that they simply had him, because then he could only ever be a legitimized bastard, who may have come before the girls in succession, we don’t really have precedent to say, but may equally have come dead last after Aegon, Viserys, Rhaenys, and Dany (possibly even Rhaella?).

They also focus on the Prince That Was Promised prophecy, and claim that he must be legitimate because then that title wouldn’t fit. This despite the fact that Dany is likely the “Prince” That Was Promised — 

“No one ever looked for a girl,” [Aemon] said. “It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. … Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it.”

— and that Jon would still have princely blood even if he were a bastard. Both because Rhaegar lived and died as one, and because if everyone had lived and Jon were legitimized, he would then also be a prince, though not trueborn.

And we mustn’t forget that much of this bullshit has to do with people’s perceptions of Elia as well. Everyone and their grandmother says she would have been fine with it because she’s ~Dornish~ and Dornish people take ~paramours~ and so she wouldn’t care.

Never mind that the last time a Martell married a Targaryen, a Targaryen bastard set off five generations of war, the last of which occurred right on Elia’s doorstep and in which (probably) her uncle Lewyn earned his stripes.

Never mind that Rhaegar was not Dornish and by using the “paramour” excuse he would be disgustingly appropriating a culture to which he doesn’t belong.

Never mind that Rhaegar fathering a bastard, even an un-legitimized one, would present an extreme threat to Elia’s children. She’s Dornish, people are racist as hell towards her people (not to mention ableist towards her specifically), and love the Starks — what happens if Westeros decides one day they’re not into having a half-Dornish king and instead back Jon? What happens if Lyanna isn’t content with her son playing second fiddle?

What happens if Rhaegar decides Jon is a better choice, especially if he changes his mind about Aegon having the song of ice and fire, and either sets Aegon and Rhaenys aside or declares Jon his heir over Aegon? Brandon was betrothed to a Tully, Ned was warded with Robert in the Vale, and Tywin hated Aerys — that’s a ridiculously powerful bloc that could oppose Elia’s children, who would have only Dorne and maybe a handful of other houses in support.

Elia would never be on board with that. I could see her putting up with Rhaegar having a mistress, because almost every guy in this series has one, but not a highborn one, and not having a child on one. And the way he went about it? By abandoning a newly postpartum Elia who nearly died giving birth to an heir who looked exactly like him, running off with the 15-year-old only daughter of a Lord Paramount, not leaving so much as a note or letting Lyanna tell her family she’s all right, disappearing for over a year, not returning even when Brandon and Rickard were killed or when war broke out or when his wife and children were taken hostage, then being so overconfident about winning on the Trident that he lost in gruesome fashion.

He caused not only the downfall of his own house, but crippled the Starks (Brandon, Rickard, and Lyanna all die, then Benjen takes the black shortly after the war) and the Dornish (10,000 spears were extorted from Doran, Elia was raped and murdered, their children were brutally killed, Lewyn was killed in battle, Arthur was killed, and Ashara committed suicide), put the Baratheons and Lannisters in power, and ruined the prophecy as he’d interpreted it.

Had Rhaegar not been so politically braindead, none of that would have happened. So no, Elia would have hated him for that, not signed off on it. Fuck that noise. People often talk about paramours as though every Dornish person takes one and that it’s not cheating, which is simply not true. Oberyn had one, but Oberyn was not married, the occasional additional liaisons he took were not only approved by Ellaria, but they participated in those liaisons together, and he and Ellaria were in a committed relationship for 14-plus years. 

We also really don’t have that many examples of Dornish people taking paramours at all:

Ellaria

Neither she nor Oberyn were married, and they were both completely devoted and faithful to one another.

Old Lord Yronwood’s that Oberyn slept with

Which, incidentally, we don’t know that Yronwood was cheating at all. Perhaps Yronwood was a widower, or his wife was fine with it, or his wife joined in, we don’t know the details.

Lewyn

Hey guess what! He wasn’t married, and was completely faithful to her, exactly like Oberyn.

Daemon Sand

There were rumors that he and Oberyn were lovers (which, gross, on so many levels), but we have only the one mention and no proof. Arianne maybe counts here as well, depending on your definition.

Drinkwater twins

Cletus suggested Quentyn take one of them as a paramour after he was married, but again we don’t know the details of that hypothetical, and Quentyn rejected it anyway.

Many Dornishmen took women of the Rhoynar for paramours; however, presumably that would have been more for purposes of alliance and to permanently join the two races.

Sylvenna Sand

She was a whore in King’s Landing who was the paramour of Essie, who was also a whore, so yet again, no adultery there.

Now, the text often refers to mistresses as paramours, but they are used interchangeably outside of Dorne. Within Dorne, they’re a separate thing. And, as you can see from the above, no one except maybe Lord Yronwood was married.

Rhaegar was. With two small children. Lyanna was betrothed. Their affair was full-blown adultery, none of this “paramour” business. Once more I say: fuck that noise.

Also, like … GRRM once said Rhaegar was a “lovestruck prince” and Barristan said he “loved his lady Lyanna” (neither sentiment is one I believe), but we’re never told anything of Lyanna’s thoughts on the matter. I am baffled as to where people get the idea she would agree to a marriage with Rhaegar.

She wanted out of her betrothal to Robert because he was not faithful, why would she enter into polygamy?? Why would she agree to get pregnant at 15?? She’s compared to Arya constantly — can you see Arya ever doing all of that?? It makes no sense!

Not that they could even get married. The Faith prohibits polygamy, and we have no examples of people in the North (save beyond the Wall, which is not in the Seven Kingdoms) ever having polygamous marriages either. So even if there were some kind of “ceremony,” it would never hold up.

Anyway. People are dumb.