#this isn't all about Jonsa but very Jonsa relevant

[mkstrigidae]

APWH preview snippet!

Since I'm actively trying to work on getting the next few chapters out, I thought I'd share a little future scene with some hints of Jonsa with all you lovely people! This bit is from like, a few chapters in the future bc it's the in-between that's giving me fits right now :) (Fair warning: this is unedited and subject to change! That being said, it's such a fun scene that I can't imagine ever nixing it :D)

“Does he even know that they have to avoid the press?”

“For the last time-“ Sam sighed, sounding completely exasperated, “Dickon knows what they can and can’t do- he’s got enough practice not being photographed from when our dad was the secretary. Not to mention spending time around you when that exposé on your crazy grandfather came out two years ago.”

“I just-“ Jon sighed, blowing a stray curl out of his face. “You didn’t see how freaked out she was when the press caught us at that performance in White Harbor. I thought she was going to have a full-blown panic attack.”

He was immediately derailed by Gilly plopping little Sam down in his lap and shoving a bottle into his hands.

“What’s this all about?” he raised a brow, adjusting the baby on his lap, allowing him to latch onto the cuff of his flannel shirt and start gnawing at the fabric. “You going somewhere?”

Gilly shot him a withering look, but he saw the amusement in her eyes.

“I-“ she gestured, imperiously, “Have not had time by myself to shower all week-“

“Sorry, love.” Sam winced, looking up from his pile of paperwork. “I can take a break from these-“

“Not your fault, Sam.” she waved him off. “You warned me about this conference at the beginning of the summer.” a grin played at the corners of her mouth. “Besides, it works out well- Jon needs a distraction right now from the fact that Sansa’s on a date with your extremely hot and conventionally attractive brother.”

“Hey!” Sam looked wounded, and Gilly rolled her eyes, pressing a kiss to his forehead.

“You know you’re my favorite Tarly.” she wrinkled her nose. “How long have you been working on this presentation? You smell like the baby spit up on you.”

“Guess I’m next in line for showers.” Sam said, mournfully. “Unless-“

“Nope- I need my own time right now, Samwell. Did you even hear what I said about why Jon’s bent out of shape?”

Jon had known Gilly since Sam and she had met up north while the two of them were in college. Sometimes, it was hard to reconcile the timid, scared girl she had been with the woman who was currently devoting all of her remaining energy to busting his balls.

“Don’t tell me you’re worried about Sansa with my brother.” Sam snorted, shotgunning another cup of coffee next to him the way Jon was used to seeing undergrads do with jaeger shots. “I mean, this is Dickon we’re talking about. Used to bring wounded animals home to take care of them Dickon? The same guy who cried when we had movie night and Gilly and Rhae wanted to go see ‘Love, Simon’?” He shook his head. “Look, as far as guys she could be out on a date with right now go, Dickon’s kind of the best case scenario. She’ll have a nice time, and he’ll be a perfect gentleman.”

Jon blinked at him, silently turning to look up at Gilly, who rolled her eyes and sighed.

“You’re hopeless, sweetie.” she kissed him on the forehead again, wrinkling her nose. “He’s not worried that things will go wrong- he’s worried they’ll go a little too well.”

“You’ve been spending way too much time around my sister.” Jon muttered, narrowly avoiding little Sam’s grasping reach for his glasses, managing to get the baby to latch onto the bottle before he destroyed any more of Jon’s eyewear. “You even sounded like her just then.”

Sam blinked for a second, his head whipping between Jon and Gilly.“You’re jealous?” He asked, incredulously. “Of Dickon? Wait- you like Sansa?”

“Got there in the end.” Gilly sighed, affectionately patting him on the shoulder before going to shower, leaving Jon and Sam behind with four cups of coffee, one baby, and approximately five brain cells total between the two of them.

“You like her.” Sam repeated, like it was a giant revelation.

“What are we- in middle school?” Jon hissed, immediately turning his head down to smile and make faces at little Sam while he fed him, before glaring up at big Sam again. “I don’t- I mean-“

Sam was just shaking his head.“Of course you do.” he laughed. “Should have guessed- red hair and a damsel in distress? You were doomed from the outset.”

“Shut up.” Jon muttered, flushing. “It’s not like that.”

“Then why are you worrying about Dickon for fu-“ Sam glanced nervously at the baby, “-god’s sake? When Gill was meeting my family for the first time, I remember you told her not to worry- that my brother was ‘one of the best guys you know’ and ‘practically a golden retriever’.”

Jon could tell that Sam, who could not raise one eyebrow without the other, was desperately trying to do just that.

“I don’t know.” He muttered, moving little Sam to his shoulder to start burping him. “Look- I’m attracted to her, alright? It’s a fu- er, a giant disaster that I’m gonna ignore for the rest of my life.”

“Seriously?”

“Stop trying to do that with your eyebrows.” Jon complained. “It’s giving me motion sickness. And yes, seriously. I’m not even going to consider that- it’s just a stupid crush. Besides,” he sighed, rubbing little Sam’s back comfortingly, “Robb’s already dealing with enough right now with this whole Sansa situation- can’t imagine telling him I think his sister’s attractive while he’s being forced to suddenly confront all of his guilt and self loathing every time he looks at her.”

“That whole bro code thing of never dating your friend’s sisters never really made sense to me.” Sam shook his head, gulping down more coffee. “I mean, I’d be thrilled if you decided to date Talla, because I know you’d be good to her.”

“Yeah, don't think she'd quite go for that, mate.” Jon snorted, standing to bounce little Sam around gently. He was just grateful Sam hadn’t said anything else about Robb.

“Eh, wouldn’t count you out completely.” Sam shrugged, smirking. “With that hair, you’re pretty enough to be a girl- maybe that’d be enough for her.”

“You are so lucky i’m holding the baby.” Jon muttered, still bouncing little Sam, who picked that moment to spit up spectacularly down Jon’s back.

“Well, that’s three of us who’re gonna need showers now.” Sam grinned, looking thrilled as all get out that it hadn’t been him. “Wow- his aim is getting better.”

“I’m going to remind him of this when he’s a sulky teenager.” Jon grumbled, wiping spit-up off his shoulder as best he could. “Look- no gossiping with Rhae about this, please. She thinks she’s such a good clandestine agent that she doesn’t always realize that Robb is better at sniffing out her plots than she thinks.”

“Alright-“ Sam sighed, looking back down at the massive stack of paperwork in front of him. “I make no promises for Gill, though.”

“Gilly could give some of my Uncle’s colleagues at the WIA a run for their money when it comes to withstanding interrogation.” Jon snorted.

“Probably true.”

“Where did your brother take Sansa?” Still holding onto a now much happier baby with one hand, he reached down the other to take a gulp of his own coffee.

“He said something about going out towards the Tyrell Estate.” Sam shrugged. “They probably drove out there to see the gardens- he’s said it’s a good road to take his bike out on.”

Jon promptly spat out his entire sip of coffee, staining the front of his shirt as well as the back, and frightening little Sam enough that he started to cry.

“He took her on his motorcycle?”

Gilly picked that moment to reappear, completely clean and with wet hair, blinking at the scene in front of her.

Sam, who couldn’t seem to stop laughing, was desperately trying to calm down the baby, who had started wailing, while Jon’s entire front was covered in coffee and his entire back was covered in baby vomit. Not that he seemed to notice, as his face was white and he was making a series of angry looking hand gestures at her husband.

“I really can’t leave you three alone for five minutes, can I?” she sighed. “Do I even want to know?”

[babybells123]

Umm I just realised something. Maybe I’m late to the party and reaching a bit but when Sansa dreams of having children that look like her lost siblings she says she also dreams of a girl who looks like Arya. But the only way Sansa could have a child that looks like her long faced dark haired gray eyed sister is by marrying a certain similar looking long faced dark haired gray eyed brother-cousin…

Hey there anon!

This isn't a reach at all, that is certainly the conclusion I came to upon reading that excerpt.

Not only do Sansa and Jon effectively have similar fantasies regarding domesticity (in the same book), they also specifically dream about having children named after their dead siblings, though I'll point something out about the 'looked like' and 'named after' distinction, and what really sold me on Sansa's fantasy being the missing half of Jon's.

"If I give him sons, he may come to love me. She would name them Eddard and Brandon and Rickon... In Sansa's dreams, her children looked just like the brothers she had lost. Sometimes there was even a girl who looked like Arya." (ASOS Sansa II).

We know that Bran and Rickon take entirely after their Tully mother (auburn-haired and blue eyed), so Sansa yearning for children looking like in effect, herself (and her mother) makes sense on a personal level. I also think it speaks to Sansa honouring her Tully appearance, and wanting her features to be passed down as a reclamation of identity. When we consider her Alayne Stone arc, and having to disguise her very distinct hair, it's certainly relevant that Sansa desires for her future self to be untainted and genuine, if that makes sense? But I digress, onto the second aspect of this dream.

Grammatically, there is a punctuation mark to separate that particular thought from the rest. It is its own, distinct musing and George wants to emphasise the thought away from the rest. And it is so very profound not just in a Jonsa way, but in regards to Sansa's relationship with Arya. Wanting a daughter who looks like the sister she has quarrelled with, and who is plainer-looking (and has been picked on for her appearance) is so..sweet? I love it so much?? I am a pro-stark sisters truther!

Okay now for that connection to Jon...

As we know, Stark features are distinct: Somber, long-faced, brown haired and grey eyed. They are never described as particularly attractive due to this appearance (well Brandon Stark was very good looking though Ned was described as plainer faced) though I'd argue that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It's why some perspectives consider Lyanna beautiful whilst other perspectives think she was nothing special and too "wild." But yeah, Stark features are certainly distinct, there are other Houses with similar appearances but the Stark look is just ?very uniquely STARK "Winter is Coming" esque.

Sansa wanting a girl who has the Stark look is then very significant, especially when we consider the entire context: Although she is supposedly fantasising about a future with a Tyrell who has southern looks, Sansa almost entirely makes her fantasy about a mystery man where they have children who just so happen to be a blend of Stark and Tully appearances...coincidence? absolutely not!

George could have had Sansa say she wanted to name her daughter Arya, though he specifically said "looked like Arya," and isn't that beautiful!

Luckily our boy Jon just so happens to be long faced, grey eyed, and brown haired whew!

It also conveys Sansa's progressive desire to return North and I also believe it foreshadows Sansa having a Northern husband! Breaking away from the idealised beauty of the South i.e 'the golden prince' is certainly significant for Sansa. And we know that she fell in love with Waymar Royce, who resembles Jon strikingly. Huh, that's two people who appear to resemble Jon that Sansa has associated with love and children. Interesting George...Interesting....

But to summarise, yes - that is the connection I have also made, and considering that Jon's fantasy is the perfect half that includes Robb as well (the missing child from Sansa's fantasy, apart from Jon)

"I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb." (ASOS Jon XII).

occurring in the same book where that desire for a family that Jon has precedes Sansa's chapter where she builds WF in the snow and the fact that they both equate romance/love with children.... oh my poor heart cannot handle the pure softness of them. Every time I start talking about one piece of evidence, I end up going on a tangent connecting it to other things, but that is the intricate and poetic beauty of Jonsa, what can I say. Sometimes I’m afraid of opening my inbox because I immediately think it’ll be hate, so I was pleasantly surprised because I LOVE discussing this topic; one of my favourite aspects of Jon and Sansa is how compatible their dreams are.

Thanks for the ask <3

[medschoolash]

There Must Always be a Stark in Winterfel

So lately I've been thinking about the future of House Stark. Now this is gonna mostly be from a show perspective since I haven't read the books. I know that the major houses had mother family members besides the ones we saw on the show but I'm gonna assume that the main and relevant people were all the people on the show. It's no secret that all of the great houses are in precarious positions right now. The only major ones left standing at the moment are House Lannister, House Targaryen, and House Stark. I think I can count house Arryn in there as well even though their current heir is a child. I'm not sure about the fate of the Tully's but the only other remaining houses are smaller houses. The Lannister's future is bleak unless Ceresi has another one of her incest babies or Tyrion marries. House Targaryen's fate is in the hands of Daenerys, who allegedly can not birth any more living children, and Jon, who doesn't even know he's a Targaryen yet. House Stark has 3 of 5 trueborn children still alive, but what remains of their house leaves them in an interesting position as well. House Lannister and Targaryen have a male heir who can potentially pass the family name on. House Stark actually does not. With Bran being a cripple and the three eyed raven he will never marry and will never sire children. That leaves the fate of House stark solely on the shoulders of Sansa and Arya. This is a bad position to be in because even if they marry and have children, none of their children would be Starks since they would be forced to take on their husband's last name. That means the Stark name would end with them. That brings me to this question....If there must always be a Stark in Winterfel, who will sire the next generation of Stark children? What will happen to the Stark name going forward? There will always be a Stark in Winterfel as long as Sansa and Arya are there, but what happens after them? Or if they get married? If their children can't be Starks then how will their house survive? After all they have been through I have a hard time just accepting that in their House name just disappears among the long list of forgotten houses. In my mind there has to be a way that the remaining Stark children can continue their house legacy and Keep the stark name and banners over Winterfel. The starks have been around since the First Men. The North is the Starks, so there has to be a way that their House continues. That brings me to my theories on how that happens. First we have to consider that Arya may never marry of have children. She's never expressed any desire for it on the show (I'm not sure about the books) and Arya seems to be all in with her faceless assassin persona, that doesn't leave a lot of room for romance and traditional marriage or children. We also have to consider that Arya currently has not one but two Valaryian steel weapons in her possession. That means Arya is more than likely going to be in the middle of the fight with the army of the dead. That means that there is a chance that she can actually die in that fight. I'm not saying she will die, but she is at risk of dying. Bottom line, it's highly unlikely that Arya will be able to contribute to her family legacy going forward unless she survives the long night and suddenly decides to retreat into a domestic life where she marries and has kids. If the Nymeria scene was meant to be a foreshadow/parallel then Arya is not destined for domestic life at Winterfel or any castle. That means the fate of House stark is pretty much in the hands of Sansa. Sansa has been married before and she probably doesn't want to have to marry again, but it's safe to say that she will probably have to eventually, even if she somehow manages to be crowned Queen in the North. She will have to continue her bloodline and produce and heir. There is just one problem with Sansa getting married, she will have to take on her husband's last name, and so will her children, and if she marries another highborn man, she will have to leave Winterfel to be the Lady of his Keep. This takes her away from Winterfel and strips her of her Stark name. If Sansa leaves winterfel there is a good chance that there will no longer be a Stark in Winterfel. So what happens then? Does some other northern Lord take over? Does Sansa's husband possibly become the Lord of Winterfel over her and then create his own house that rules over the North? The options are limited here because unfortunately Westerosi society if a patriarchy. Sansa would have to find the most progressive husband ever that would give their children her last name and allow her to rule as the Lady of Winterfel. It's safe to say it's going to be hard to find a man like this in Westeros. So that leaves me wondering again....what happens next? How will there always be a stark in Winterfel? The wild card here is Jon, who is a snow by name but a Stark by blood, even if he isn't the son of Ned Stark. Jon is the most interesting factor here because he can influence the fate of two houses: Targaryen and Stark, as he's the only male from both bloodlines capable of siring children in the future. Jon is also in a unique position to where he has a claim to power in the South and in the North, that means he can make decision that seem progressive to us and get away with it. I personally think that Jon can chose which name he wants to take, he doesn't have to go by Targaryen. Daemon Blackfyre was legitimized by his father the king, but chose to create his own house and take the name Blackfyre instead of taking on the Targaryen name. Jon could chose to do something similar and chose to take his mother's name, Stark instead of his father's name. Taking Stark would make sense because Jon was raised by Ned Stark, the North is his home, he has no connection to the name Targaryen at all. Finding out that his father was one isn't going to suddenly make the connection appear. He could also chose Stark because if he does not the only family name he's ever had a connection to would die out with his cousins. If Jon takes the name Targaryen, house Targaryen lives on, but house stark is left to die. I have a hard time seeing that happening since the downfall of house targaryen has been in the works for a while and it was brought on by their own ill advised practices like incest. I just don't see this being a story where the most problematic house in the history of houses is saved by a secret heir who embraces his ancestry and carries on the legacy, especially not with a character like Jon being the center of this potential storyline. Jon will always be a man of the North, he will always be a Stark at his core, not a Targaryen. Everything about him is the antithesis of what the Targaryens are and have been throughout history. This is why I think that Jon will chose to reject his Targaryen ancestry and name, and instead embrace the Stark name. He has always wanted it and it's kinda bittersweet because he wouldn't be getting it the way he wanted it, which is by being legitimatized as the son of Ned Stark, but he would still finally have the identity that he always craved. Jon embracing the stark name would be a big deal because it opens the door to keeping Ned Stark's legacy alive and House Stark alive. If Jon take the name Stark, he can marry Sansa Stark, Ned's trueborn daughter. Sansa can keep her name, and the Starks can keep their Lordship of Winterfel. All of their children would have the Stark name, so their house would live on. There would always be a Stark in Winterfel. My only iffy thing about this is what happens if Jon takes the iron throne with Sansa at this side. What Stark would be left at Winterfel? Possibly Arya maybe? But again, Arya doesn't seem destined for domestic life so I'm a little stuck....unless Arya stays at winterfel temporarily. Jon and Sansa's first born would be the heir to the iron throne, but their second child could take over Lordship at Winterfel. If Jon and Sansa didn't take the iron throne and just kept the North they wouldn't have this problem. Anyways I'm kinda rambling now lol I think it would be pretty ironic though, House Targaryen dies because of their incest, and house Stark lives on because of incest.

[alinaastarkov]

TBH, I think the other reason why Harry x Sansa isn't popular with Stansas because Harry isn't connected with any of Sansa's "rivals" (Arya and Dany). But Jon and fAegon (yes, I learned Aegon x Sansa is a thing) are. Which makes Stansas even more determined to ship their fave with Jon/fAegon. Sansa gets a hot dude with relevance and power AND she gets to one-up Arya/Dany? Big win for Stansas. Sansa gets w/ a "lowly" Lord of the Vale and doesn't get to win over Aya/Dany? No win for Sansa.

This is very true, and I can’t believe I neglected this in my answer. You are so right, anon. Thanks for this ask and for reminding me!

With all these Jonsas taking Jonrya/ Dany quotes and somehow twisting them to be about Sansa when she’s nowhere near involved, insisting that she will be queen when that’s not her arc, bullshit ‘pre-canon crush’ (which honestly sounds like some kind of disease) when it was Arya he was closest to, making all these anti-Arya/ Dany posts, and everything else they do to put these two down, it’s clear that Sansa being happy is not enough for them. Everyone else also has to be unhappy.

If you look at most Sansan/ Sansa x Harry shippers (I’m not familiar with Sanrion but I assume they are similar), their perfect endgame is their ship ending up in some nice house/ cabin by the coast, raising kids, being chill and happy, just living life, ya know? With Stansas/ Jonsas, it’s Sansa being Queen and Jon being her consort, or Jon being beyond the wall and having a secret affair with the Queen in the North. Note they are not happy with Jon being King and Sansa being Queen. Now, it’s fine if you want a girl to be queen because feminism I guess, in theory (though, there really should be more reason than that. Mary Stuart gets praised solely because of so-called feminism, but she was also a terrible ruler), but it’s an interesting contrast that Sansa has to be the one in complete control, whilst with Sansan their perfect endgame is simply their ship being happy and together and nothing else matters (note: if anyone does want her as queen in this ship, it’s not as many as the jonsas who want that, so I say most).

It’s also interesting that Sansa x Aegon only saw a rise in popularity when he started being shipped with Dany and Arya. f!Aegon was not even on their radar until then, and suddenly Sansa x Aegon is meant to be. Aegon x Arya is mostly a fun little crackship that’s just cute to imagine, but his storyline and foreshadowing with Dany is very real. But, much like show!Sansa getting “her own needle”, other characters seemingly can’t have their own traits, stories, relationships without Sansa “deserving” the same. Even if they’ve never met and have nothing in common. 

And don’t even get me started on the Ashford Theory because 1. It was created by a fan, not GRRM, who admitted it was just a silly theory, and wrote it as foreshadowing for Sansan, not Jonsa and 2. If you ever try to use it as foreshadowing for Aegon x Sansa anyway, they insist you’re delusional and wrong and the Targaryen in the list is obviously Jon.

Also, nonny, I’m sorry you had to become aware of Sansa x Aegon. Much like everything else about this character, it could have been cute, but the stansas just made it ugh.

It does just come down to proving she is better than other characters. You know what most Dany stans (and Dany herself) want for her? To go find the house with the red door and settle down with a family (insert person we want her to do that with). You know what most Arya stans (including myself and Arya herself) want for her? To find her family and her pack and live peacefully in the North/ Winterfell with her wolf and a bunch of kids (insert Dany/Jon/Gendry/Ned/ whoever else we want her to do that with). Sansa stans want her to be Queen or they don’t want anything. Ironic, isn’t it? None of the Jonrya/Jonerys/Arya/Dany stans take quotes from Sansa or her traits or her ships. Sansa doesn’t feature into endgames for these characters at all. And yet, apparently we’re the ones who are obsessed with Sansa. 

Fact is, Sansa being happy should be enough for her stans (which is the case for her book fans). If it’s not, then are they really fans of her? 

No