#Jonsa commentary

[wandering-scavenger]

jon's character is at the lowest point he can get where most sides of the fandom regard the snow show with either reluctance or vitriol (guess which side is which). jonsa bias aside, their best route at salvaging an otherwise unsalvageable character arc (besides giving viewers the closure they need about his parentage) would be to play up political jon and double down on the respect-sansa-tea (or maybe simply just don't drag her into this at all) if they're not giving us jonsa.

because what is honestly the narrative point in depicting him mourning over a dead character who literally committed genocide and then villainizing sansa (a fear that sansa fans rightfully have)? how does that further his journey except to move him towards? what? not being sad anymore and dragging her character through the mud at his benefit? i'd get it if this were just some modern day miniseries about a guy getting over the death of his wife, but this is supposed to be a sequel to game of thrones and we were robbed of a genuine and coherent scene that depicted what the hell was really going through the starks' minds and their motivations in seasons 7-8.

but everything is everyone else's fault but jon's and he's just some poor bloke with the best intentions who falls in love with "strong" women who treat him badly. riiiiight. damn. i want to be optimistic but we've seen this before and we ~generally~ didn't like the ending.

[badbedforbedding]

👀

[agentrouka-blog]

do you think the asoiaf series have an issue with romanticizing incest ? sometimes i feel like even a pulpy series like flowers in the attic better managed to communicate the horror of incest by making it a sort of family curse

It's not romanticizing incest any more than it is romanticizing violent abuse of power. GRRM's storytelling style is geared around the reader having to make their own judgments of whether or not a character's actions and choices are "good" or "bad" or harmful or life-affirming, or destructive or effective.

And he is definitely not writing "horror" in the sense of chilling you to the bone emotionally. (Which is valid, too.) He's writing a bit more intellectually than that. He's examining the subject. From multiple angles.

Why is incest harmful? What is harmful about it? Given a general lack of natural inclination toward it, what underlying forces are bringing it forth in the story? Are they similar to the underlying forces that cause other forms of harm?

When characters romanticize incest in the story, or when they normalize it (fictional historians or other characters about the Targs, mainly) this too is the author asking you to use your brain and question that.

If you read Fire and Blood and expect that the author is presenting you with Protagonists to Identify With instead of A Problem To Analyze, you're reading it wrong. It's fictional non-fiction. Literally a fake history book.

As for the actual novel series, you're still not seeing him romanticizing incest through characters like codependent Lannister-supremacy murder twins Jaime and Cersei, or Viserys's abuse of Dany, or Craster, or the rumors of Black Walder Frey. They all involve misogyny and objectification, supremacist disdain of "lesser" people, and/or outright generational cycles of sexual and emotional abuse.

Jonsa as a concept, too, is an examination of the underlying forces. In the so-called "original outline" (really one of many), GRRM directly plays with the concept of an incest romantic attraction between Jon and a Stark half-sister (named Arya in that case) that "torments" them, and is likely to be at least in part a commentary on the distortion of family relationships through the rigid status differences enforced by their oppressive feudal, patriarchal society. As in, the incest is not fetishized or romanticized, it is a problem that has to be miraculously overcome by the revelation of Jon's actual degree of relation, which paves over the "perversion" that existed because there was no natural family bond.

So... no, absolutely not. There is no romanticizing. The book series absolutely requires critical thinking, there is meant to be some emotional distance induced by the excesses it depicts, giving you room to question and analyze. If you swallow it all as a form of "different in-universe morality" then you're missing the point.

[esther-dot]

Tyrion and Jaime seeing jonsa will get Jaime-cersei vibes. Petyr seeing jonsa will get nedcat or petyr-cat vibes. Dany seeing jonsa will get rhaegar-lyanna vibes. Theon seeing jonsa will get theon-sansa or nedcat vibes. All of these either involved in incest, either creepily love Jon or sansa or have feelings for girl they grown together. Do you think it's a coincidence?🤔

I want all of the horrified realizations, anon!

What’s the point in all these parallels and foils if we don’t get some distraught LF: “Not again!”

An enraged Tyrion, “WHY AM I SURROUNDED BY DEGENERATES WHO WANT THEIR SISTER?!”

I definitely think the way Jonsa interacts with so many other dynamics is intentional. The parallels and contrast between characters and relationships are how Martin creates nuance and provides commentary without too much intrusion of an authoritative voice. As in, obviously, incest is wrong, but Martin wants some moral complexity, he wants to prompt readers to think a little more deeply on issues, because after all, villains do bad things, it's not all that interesting or surprising when they do. But, what if our heroes are tempted?

Martin can't leave his conversation about incest with Targcest and Twincest (baddies do bad things, it's very easily condemned), he has to give some good guys a chance to struggle with it. What would good people do with those impulses? And then, being nice, he has a built in "fix" since they aren't actually brother/sister, he can give his characters a moment of relief since in ASOIAF, cousin marriage is fine. Obviously the reader is still gonna have some thoughts, but that’s the point.

I do think the…triangulation is important to Martin, he offers Sansa a marriage with a cousin she didn’t grow up with, a man she did grow up with thinks of marrying her, and she is forced to marry a guy whose family is the enemy of her family. Between the three of them, we have several of the interesting facets of Jonsa. Each of these parallels we find provides shading, makes us question, object, and reconsider.

I suppose, I simply don’t buy that back in the 90s people were romanticizing incest and Martin thought, “I better write about how destructive that can be because no one has told these kids it’s bad.” What an entirely uninteresting thing to say, there’s nothing to explore there. And I’ve noticed, writers write because they have something to say. I know, I know, shocking! 😂 So, making his romance of the series this side of wrong, that’s how he has something new to say, that’s how he pushes boundaries. It pushes us and makes us conflicted on the topic rather than allowing it to remain clear cut. That’s another thing I’ve noticed about him, he’s into the morally grey stuff. Stay tuned for further brilliant insights!

[alaynestcnes]

if you think grrm distanced himself from hotd over dany being tptwp… 💀 jonsa really causes the braindead disease

Open the schools omfg reading comprehension is at an all time low 😭

I never said the Dany aa/tptwp thing was the reason GRRM distanced himself, I think he has a lot of gripes with the liberties being taken overall. But GRRM’s distance (and seeming unhappiness) with the whole project makes it lose credibility as canon to me. I.e, GRRM’s opinion of the show is informing how I interpret its content, I’m not speculating on whether there was one specific thing that caused GRRM to form that opinion. I hope that clarifies the distinction for you.

Also I’m not against Dany as aa/tptwp. If anything, I’m against anyone being confirmed as aa bc I like the idea of it being unresolved forever (so that the fandom can stay alive debating it endlessly even after the series ends). Like the whole commentary being made with prophecy works better if we never have a solid answer. Imo, the prophecy itself does not matter, it’s words in the wind, it’s power lies in how it’s used as a tool to drive actions, to justify atrocities and to gain power/control. It’s essentially propaganda. Having an ending that says any character was definitely aa, essentially the Chosen One who singlehandedly ends the war for the dawn, doesn’t really mesh with GRRM’s subversion of fantasy tropes and exploration of moral greyness. And it’s not as fun. So, that’s my main issue with the aa ‘confirmation’, not that it’s Dany (I wouldn’t accept it if it was Jon or Stannis either).

[wulfhalls]

i wondered why the op has you blocked as you both ship a lot of same pairings, notably jonsa, but then i realised that she likes alicent so maybe your commentary was not to her liking 😭

I like alicent???? I've never said a single bad thing about our beautiful tragic queen???? but if a fellow jonsa blocked me I must have done something truly unforgivable (being extremely annoying about everything all the time)

[asongofstarkandtargaryen]

Bryderswhale is a huge ass and kind of an idiot, but they're not a Jonsa.

I'll take your word on that because I'm not gonna go and check their blog.

Jonsas and hardcore Sansa fans are on the same category for me: fans that are apparently reading A Song of Sansa and Sansa. I have to interest to interact with them and I wish they wouldn't add their hate commentary on posts that are about totally unrelated characters.

I don't mind exchanging opinions with other asoiaf fans (and yes that includes Sansa fans who don't belong on the first category). I've some mutuals I've disagreed in the past on various fandom topics and I continue following. Because when you express a theory/opinion/write a meta you got to accept that not everyone is going to have the same views with you. I also don't mind getting anons disagreeing with me- as long as they are polite - for the same reason .

But when someone is rude or adds hate commentary on a properly tagged post then the only solution is to block them.

(please understand that since the second message you send me might include a sensitive information about a third party, I won't publish it)

[eonweheraldodemanwe]

Half Jonsa/Dune anon who saw your reblog on Esther's posts, sorry, I'm not referring superficial parallels between characters, I'm referring to an overall thematic/narrative commentary. Jon's differences from Paul are meaningful (even on ASOIAF's own strict story terms, but ASOIAF is basically predicated upon deconstruction and commentary).

Superficial similarities aren't the be-all in the common approach to 'parallels' the fandom tends to focus on. I'm only on anon, so won't elaborate or take up any of your time more, and really I should keep my neck out of the fandom lol.

You can send all the anon asks you want. You don't brother me.

But I think Jon as a character is very different from Paul even in the thematic/narrative level from the very beginning.

[aegor-bamfsteel]

Would you ever write a Jonsa meta? I love your content on Blackfyres, what if alternate scenarios for characters and the world building and even commentary on George as an author and the themes that he employs in these books. I am pretty sure you will write a great crisp meta on Jonsa.

I’ll take the compliment, although I think my loquacious writing is the opposite of crisp. Thank you for the kind words about what I’ve written so far.

Technically I have written some opinion pieces about Jonsa, as well as added statements on reblog. Unfortunately I haven’t had a lot of time to write original content, meaning it’s recently been more responding to asks than traditional meta. If somebody were to ask me a Jonsa related question (like this one on the girl in grey) it’s possible were I able to think of something to say, that I’d answer it. The problem with Jonsa meta writing and me is that I feel I’d be retracing ground people have already covered a lot better. People have found Jonsa content as far back as the prologue of GOT. Contrast the topics you mentioned—Blackfyres, AU scenarios, certain GRRM criticism as pertains to the supplemental material—all have less written on them, as well as fewer pages for me to leaf through (I’m not someone who usually takes days to write a meta. Some of my longer responses are the exception), so at least I feel I’m adding something new to the discussion. But as I said, if you have a specific Jonsa related question, I will read it and see if I can write a decent response.

[winterrose527]

not to be a little demon of a person but I just thought they deserved a little commentary sdfghjkl

Jon was quiet, sure, and not particularly forthcoming, but he was also caring in a way she’d never expected. For someone who didn’t ask her many questions, he seemed to just know things about her. Not in a creepy way, or anything, but like he was paying attention to even her most rambling thoughts.

One Wednesday morning, she went into the kitchen to say goodbye to him only to find that he’d set out a carton of oat milk next to the coffee machine. That Sunday morning she’d demurred coffee, because she didn’t like it black and dairy gave her a stomach ache. When she asked him about it he’d merely shrugged and said saw it at the store, no reason for you to pay $8 for a latte just because you slept here.

And he was protective in a way she’d never experienced with someone who wasn’t family or a friend. It wasn’t in a possessive way or even in a condescending way. It was as casual as him wrapping an arm around as though to say I’ve got you as they were walking by one of the seedier elements of King’s Landing and she knew that he did.

So maybe he didn’t talk about his feelings, but she wasn’t convinced that he didn’t have them. The way he looked at her sometimes or the way his laugh seemed to come easily now within mere moments in her company, or the way he seemed to know the names of the people in her life and their stories well enough to give her a wait, how did that happen when she mentioned some new development.

Oh my poor neglected Jonsa babies.

Okay so this passage, I actually love, because it goes so well with one of my head canons of Jon that his love language is Acts of Service. Particularly in this story he was not forthcoming (to his detriment), so it's really these things - getting her oat milk, protecting her as they walk around, taking note of the people in her life - that show how much attention he's paying her, and how much affection he has for her.

This is also a really important insight into the way that him and Sansa in this story are not necessarily inherently compatible, even though they are very very right. While Sansa notices these things, she is craving him to show his affection in another way - by words of affirmation, in this case. The fact that she is seeing these things, cataloguing them and appreciating him, yet still doubts him a little ways down the line ultimately shows how much she has to grow.

She really should know better because she's dated a lot of guys who say the right things and do the wrong ones, yet doesn't recognize the merit of a guy who is doing the opposite.

That isn't to let Jon off the hook at all, he really fucks up and a lot of that has to do with his own insecurities etc., but I really can't quite justify the way Sansa behaves knowing that this is all laid out like this. I wanted them to both really be in the wrong, and so this bit was really laying the groundwork for that.

Additionally, it's meant to show the audience even more than Sansa just how much he's falling for her, because we understand him in a way that she doesn't yet, which is always a fun bit of tension!

Also I chose $8 for a latte because earlier that day I had spent $8 on a latte.

[medschoolash]

I wanna talk about the fact that despite sansa’s frustration about the politics behind Jon’s actions, when he explained what he had to do she actually never argues with him that it wasn’t the right thing and didn’t need to be done. There is this moment right after he talks about the war where she sighs and says nothing because she knows he’s right about the threat.....

and yet knowing this, knowing that what Jon is saying is true (as short sighted at it maybe he’s right about them not surviving without Dany) Sansa is STILL very clearly bothered. We know she trusts that he’s doing the right thing because she outright says she has faith in him and the pain on her face showed us that she meant it when she said it. 

and yet, she’s still clearly bothered. She’s bothered that Jon brought Dany home as the queen, as his queen. When he tells her that Dany will make a good queen the look on her face says so much. Its one thing for Jon to believe they need Dany to survive, but it’s another for Jon to actually believe in her leadership abilities (especially when he gives Sansa such a hard time about her opinions). 

and that moment takes us to what’s surprisingly the root of Sansa’s problem. She’s not bothered by Jon doing what needed to be done to save the north. She knows the noble idiot would do what it takes in a heartbeat consequences be damned. But the idea that Jon finds Dany beautiful, the idea that Jon loves her, the idea that Jon might want to marry her (which was planted by LF last season and she didn’t react well). THAT’s what’s got her so frustrated. So passionate in this argument and so invested in this fight with him. 

you have to wonder why Sansa would feel that bothered by it? Is it because she’s worried his judgement might be clouded and he’s leading them down a terrible path? It didn’t exactly read that way and if they wanted it to they could have made it read that way

no instead it read like a woman who is bothered that the man she loves might be invested in someone else and honestly it’s not something I was at all prepared to walk away from this premiere seeing from Sansa. 

Imma be real. It really feels like they are setting the stage for a reveal that Sansa is in love with Jon. 

[zed-zedfz]

undefined

The best jonsa ever

[agentrouka-blog]

Some book! jonsa fanfics recommendations? pleaseeeee <333

Hi anon!

The last time I made a list of bookverse jonsa fic was in late 2021, in this post.

I've added a few more to my AO3 bookmarks since then!

(Disclaimer: These reflect not a commentary on popularity or overall quality. I only bookmark those for rereading that fit my extremely specific tastes, the fandom has MUCH more to offer.)

I'm leaving out anything that veers too far off book canon, regardless of how good it may be, so while many of these are AUs to some extend, they won't be modern or regency or anything like that.

for the wars by ganymede_elegy (@cellsshapedlikestars) is a bookverse AU that veers of canon early and well. Jon doesn't join the Watch - and he is not Rhaegar's son, either. An excellent exploration of the Stark family dynamics in the time of war, both bitter and genuinely sweet.

My Maid of Stone is a WIP by @undercovercaptain is a bookverse "Jon goes to the Vale" AU, and already the first chapter is delightful. Come for the premise, stay for the sheer beauty of imagery and language.

Dance by @esther-dot is a short and very sweet pre-parentage reveal moment. <3

he flies by his own wings by TrishTan (@notbloodraven) is a WIP and actually an extremely different "Rhaegar won" AU, with a dark Targ bastard Jon, but it's definitely bookverse flavored and it's just all around excellent, hilarious and absolutely unique, so.. you know, enjoy!

a wind with a wolf's head by Juliet_Capulet is a bookverse Sansa-centric WIP (unfinished) where she travels North and reunites with Jon at the Wall, great Sansa voice, really captures her book personality.

Worth The Keeping by @undercovercaptain - the sequel to Beneath my Bones - is a lovely post-parentage reveal exploration. Romance, atmospheric nature descriptions, angst with a soft reward (to quote the author's approach to jonsa) - what more can you want?

Willowy Creature by @esther-dot is a lovely short post-canon happy ending moment. <3

What We Want by @justadram is a lovely jonsa fic from way back in 2013, both dark in its exploration and sweet in its execution. Set in the Vale.

By Firelight by @undercovercaptain (goodness me, how can she be in this list so often, is it because she is amazing??) and it's basically, soft and dreamy Married Idiots in Love in the gentlest way possible.

Safe and Sound by alemoncakelife is an unfinished WIP blending show and book canon post Season 4. Sansa heads North. 21 chapters and lots of plot!

Varg-hamr / Wolf-skin by @undercovercaptain is all about the Girl in Grey from warg!Jon's perspective! Gorgeous, riveting stuff!

That should about cover my new additions! I hope there's something there for you to enjoy!

[esther-dot]

"A girl as grey as ash, and even as I watched she crumbled and blew away. —A Dance with Dragons, Melisandre I. What do you think crumbles and blew away signifies? Do you think it has any other meaning?

I can approach this from a few different directions. The most forceful idea is how Mel's visions are unreliable. She interprets them the only way she can in the moment, sometimes with the pressure of needing to deliver, but like ashes, they blow away on the wind. The idea that she's trying to grasp something that simply crumbles in her hand works as commentary on her impossible situation.

It's also an image that Martin likes, ashes in the wind, and he relates ashes to snowflakes on occasion, so it's apparently part of how analogizes disparate things:

When the wind blew from the south, the air smelled of smoke even here, three miles from the city. Behind its crumbling red brick walls, Astapor was still asmolder, though by now most of the great fires had burned out. Ashes floated lazy on the breeze like fat grey snowflakes. It would be good to go. (ADWD, The Windblown)

I didn't look into it, but it occurs to me, this feels like an acknowledgment of fate, the wind (life) pulling us in directions we have no control of, would never imagine. But really, what comes up the most in ADWD, is this connection between ash and snow:

The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lover's hand. Strange voices called to her from days long past. "Melony," she heard a woman cry. A man's voice called, "Lot Seven." She was weeping, and her tears were flame. And still she drank it in. Snowflakes swirled from a dark sky and ashes rose to meet them, the grey and the white whirling around each other as flaming arrows arced above a wooden wall and dead things shambled silent through the cold, beneath a great grey cliff where fires burned inside a hundred caves. Then the wind rose and the white mist came sweeping in, impossibly cold, and one by one the fires went out. Afterward only the skulls remained. Death, thought Melisandre. The skulls are death. (ADWD, Melisandre I)

It is a little like a subset of the Ice and Fire/ contrast of extremes, but reading this, I think this time he likes the colors here, perhaps the significance is the Stark colors? Before I've read this passage as Jonsa reunion and the rise of House Stark foreshadowing. Snowflakes fall, the ashes rise sounds like:

The snow fell and the castle rose. (ASOS, Sansa VII)

And we sometimes read "the snow" as Jon, and in your quote, the girl (Sansa) is ash, so Jon (snowflakes) is assassinated -> Sansa (ashes) goes North -> reunion (snowflakes and ashes "meet"). The fact that they're surrounded by danger (flaming arrows) fits.

I suppose "she crumbled and blew away" could be about Sansa's identity being reclaimed (shedding the Alayne persona), rising like a phoenix from the ashes.

I looked around for some context for crumbling just to see how Martin uses it, and there was an interesting passage:

When Varamyr pushed at it, the snow crumbled and gave way, still soft and wet. Outside, the night was white as death; pale thin clouds danced attendance on a silver moon, while a thousand stars watched coldly. He could see the humped shapes of other huts buried beneath drifts of snow, and beyond them the pale shadow of a weirwood armored in ice. To the south and west the hills were a vast white wilderness where nothing moved except the blowing snow. "Thistle," Varamyr called feebly, wondering how far she could have gone. "Thistle. Woman. Where are you?" Far away, a wolf gave howl. (ADWD, Prologue)

Sansa has been compared to a weirwood before by fans, so I did think this was interesting, especially because this whole prologue seems to be giving us insight into warging to prep us for Jon being warged into Ghost time post assassination. I'm getting some vague Jon and Sansa without anything concrete, but this passage feels a little more direct:

It was warmer in the godswood, strange to say. Beyond its confines, a hard white frost gripped Winterfell. The paths were treacherous with black ice, and hoarfrost sparkled in the moonlight on the broken panes of the Glass Gardens. Drifts of dirty snow had piled up against the walls, filling every nook and corner. Some were so high they hid the doors behind them. Under the snow lay grey ash and cinders, and here and there a blackened beam or a pile of bones adorned with scraps of skin and hair. Icicles long as lances hung from the battlements and fringed the towers like an old man's stiff white whiskers. But inside the godswood, the ground remained unfrozen, and steam rose off the hot pools, as warm as baby's breath. The bride was garbed in white and grey, the colors the true Arya would have worn had she lived long enough to wed. Theon wore black and gold, his cloak pinned to his shoulder by a crude iron kraken that a smith in Barrowton had hammered together for him. But under the hood, his hair was white and thin, and his flesh had an old man's greyish undertone. A Stark at last, he thought. Arm in arm, the bride and he passed through an arched stone door, as wisps of fog stirred round their legs. The drum was as tremulous as a maiden's heart, the pipes high and sweet and beckoning. Up above the treetops, a crescent moon was floating in a dark sky, half-obscured by mist, like an eye peering through a veil of silk. (ADWD, The Prince of Winterfell)

Martin has contrasted Jon and Theon, we get a lot of Sansa and Jonsa in Theon's ADWD (which I've written about several times and can't find rn), so this feels like it could potentially be foreshadowing for Jon too, only, in Theon's story it's all tragedy and despair, for Jon, it could be actual acceptance and rising high.

This passage takes on very different meanings depending on which camp you're in. For some the idea is Jon accepting legitimacy -> KITN Jon -> marrying Sansa. For others it's rejecting legitimacy -> QITN Sansa -> Sansa marrying Jon...whichever way it goes, Jon in the godswood for a Stark girl marriage feels like it's on the horizon.

That's all I got!

[jonstarks]

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KIT: I think there is something to be said in me and sophie having pretty much grown up together, in just our friendship, our relationship together being quite, quite sibling-esque.

SOPHIE: It really is.

KIT: It really help us with doing this, playing sibling. It just like a conversation of me and sophie have on set.

SOPHIE: yeah, this is our daily conversation, there is a lot of confrontation, frustration, *pause* and then kit like fart in my face or something.

*Miguel laughing in the background*

KIT: yeah, you could replace all the words of this with like sophie took the last cheesecake. Yeah, no it’s true, it’s like I think we’ve, you know, we’ve grown up together in lot way.

SOPHIE: You do feel like an irritating, shorter older brother.

KIT: yeah, I’ll agree with that.  

What I like about kit and sophie relationships is, they really have a sibling relationship in real life, so all the chemistry came from their acting and the directing from each directors of the episode, there is no “accidental” chemistry, and unlike kimil*a shipper, we love their sibling relationship, for me I think it’s cute and adorable, just like mophie’s friendship.

But that pause though! I think sophie saw a glimpse of sexual tension in their scene and shook for a second, and then making a fart joke to cover it up. LOL. Kit said that their sibling-esque relationship help them playing sibling in season 6. I wonder if it would help them playing lover in season 8. *maniacal laughter*

[elegantwoes]

It’s interesting how both Jon and Sansa misdirect their hurt and anger at Ned to those who don’t deserve it, for brief moment wish one of their family dies, and call a person ugly in their third AGOT chapter, and yet only one of them gets hated for it.