#this is how i justify plot-convenience! except i dont even need to justify it i genuinely think like dmc its an intentional choice

[ridgystacis]

imma write down some quick thoughts on narratives as living things real quick

Deltarune has got itself a really healthy narrative, alright? It's thriving, its guiding the path in the background, tangible yet invisible. It's the ferris wheel scene for Noelle and Susie -- a convenient set-up marks the deft hand of fate moving to direct the pieces and roles into their correct places, narrative framing, art. Its vigor is its emotion, the satisfaction one feels and it fuels within a desire to live and experience with it. You can feel it within every sequence, the warmth of a song for you.

And then you got the narrative in something like Devil May Cry 5. This narrative is rotting, full decay. The characters must play roles that don't fit them, it's oozing and slippery and they fall into patterns, moving further along with no ability stop what is mundane now. It's later seasons of sitcoms, stories repeating again and again except that it's not a cycle, it's a spiral, and it's been spoiling this entire time. Why do Dante and Vergil have to fight? It's because they're the protagonist and antagonist of an action game that refuses to ever let them die because it has one story it wants to tell. As the narrative dies they corrode with it, continuing to play out their roles and awaiting to be fossilized in them.

so like, games where the narrative is a living, breathing thing am i right?

[emeraldvagabond]

ok I talked about it in the tags of tht post I reblogged but I just CANNOT get over the way sjm handles male SA. I can't. It's bad and awful, and I really cant think of anything else to say about it. Rhysand never even acknowledges that he was SA'd. The narrative spins it into something that he can turn into "his choice"....so that it can write it as some huge sacrifice. ASSAULT IS NOT A SACRIFICE. Like : / I dont even like Rhysand, but he is suffering??? Except he's not because Sarah Janet doesnt want to write him as a victim. She wants him to be the mastermind, he can only be a victim when it's convenient for the plot(ie. when he's justifying himself to Feyre)at every other point...he has to be a Strong Unbroken Male, who Never Suffers unless He Decides To, for the Good of his People. And its like???? LET MALE VICTIMS BE UPSET??? Let Rhysand have a bad day. That time feyre woke him up w a bj??? That could have been a good moment for him to b like "hey woah." Let him feel gross. Let him realize that, actually, that was not in anyway part of his sacrifice, that was not a decision he made for the good of his people. That was Amarantha punishing him and the memory of his father. That was violence. He was the victim.

It's....OKAY for men to be victims?? That is fine. Men are taken advantage of. Men can suffer and still be men. Men can feel confused and sad and stressed and sick and gross and they can feel elated and romantic and shy and everything else in between. Why do we keep getting this brooding alpha male archetypes as our main characters? Just let them.....be. It doesn't make them any less manly by acknowledging their feelings, good or bad. Being SA'd ABSOLUTELY doesn't take away from their Strong Male appearances....so why cant she just acknowledge it as the traumatizing act that it is.

And she does it again with Lucien and Ianthe. Ianthe, who is Luciens abuser, is always written as this bad awful woman.....but at the same time we see Feyre include her in nearly every plan she makes. She doesnt say anything or step in to help Lucien.

And Lucien sees what Ianthe is doing to him, how shes treating him, as something that just has to be endured for the sake of the court. She is the High Priestess and he is just a Courtier. We saw what happened when somebody tried to speak out against her. No one stood up for him. No one backed him. In fact, they immediately manipulated the Highlord into believing he was lying and whipping him. (Theres another argument here, about how Tamlin, who has been wanted by a sexual predator since he was a boy when he would go to Hybern with his father to meet Amarantha and the King, just doesnt seem like the type of person to ignore someone being assaulted, especially not his best friend, but that's for another time ig) Lucien's abuse, ESPECIALLY on the night of Calanmai, when he sleeps with Ianthe bc Tamlin is so distraught.....is written off as another sacrifice. Just something he HAD to do, again, for the sake of the court.

And then he??? Never mentions it again???Feyre finds him chained up and Ianthe touching all over him and STILL Lucien is not allowed to feel like a victim. He has to keep his cunning, clever, never bothered mask.

Even Amarantha's obsession with Tamlin as a CHILD is just kinda.....brushed off and viewed as normal. Just something that was...going to happen.

It's weird and if it was supposed to be written as these males not wanting to acknowledge it....it'd be different, but she tries to write it as these compelling scenes of survival....but like, without following through with it because it interrupts her images of what these males should be. Maybe if you dont want to address SA or its aftermath in your stories....stop using it as a plot device. Why did Rhysand NEED to be abused by Amarantha. Why did Lucien NEED to be abused by Ianthe. Why did Tamlin NEED to be sought after by a predator. There are other ways to solidify that a character is bad or evil especially if you don't have the range to write a victim of SA.

but she also uses it to show how awful Rhys is in TAR, too, so I guess that is just her....go to evil act? Which, fair enough it is one of the most ultimate evils imo....but not every one one of her villains needs to be a predator. Really, NONE of them NEED to SA anyone....but if you're going to make it part of the story....follow it through even to the bad ugly parts that rent through your characters stoic disguises. Let victims be victims.

[roxannepolice]

Long asks anon again, here to offer my opinion on the current wank. Rey as a character is rather blatantly breaking sw story rules and nothing is going to get SFF fans hackles up like rule breakage. This is root of both the MarySue accusations and current wank. Rey has a tragic backstory thats doubling as the only failure she can call her own. But its a) damn near entirely offscreen and b) serves as convenient justification for why shes competent at near everything that comes up.

Reys instantly good at the force because of a convenient force download that to the best of my knowledge only occured in the noncanon KOTOR II and quite frankly cant blame most of the general audience for not getting because without prior knowledge or the novelizations why would they? She has darkness in her but as so far used and touched it consequence free and its almost entirely symbolically externalized on the Kylo (and in SW symbolism is Real in a way it isnt in other narratives) Shes strong in the force because Light rises to meet Dark but to quote the current crop of movies ‘thats not how the force works) or at least thats never how it worked before. Shes the first SW protagonist to go behind enemy lines and come out with both hands in the second movie. For ppl wondering how come Luke and Ani never get labeled MarySues, this is why, they got thier asses handed to them, Rey hasnt. There /is/ something /off/ in Reys story, and ppl pick up on it. if you can make a post (w/ over 1k notes!) about how great it is that a character meant to prop up 7hrs worth of movies has little to no character development to go through, somethings off. If multiple ppl can make posts about how its neat Rey can tap into the darkside (still characterized as evil in ST) consequence free (with some quite frankly stupid justifications, 'shes disciplined’ really? jedi lacked a lot of things thats not one of them) somethings off and again, if the only failure your main heroine has is /entirely retroactive something’s off/. If the story were getting with the is the story most ppl think we are, a 'female empowerment’ (i dont feel particularly empowered by being told I have an equal chance at being a deus ex machina but ok) than well, her story is over and theres no need for IX (hell it could have been over in TFA, most ppl assumed she had accepted her place as the future jedi in that one) and no need for reylo The ST was always gonna deconstruct all that came before it purely by virtue of being a sequel. The tragedy of anakin skywalker is now a farce, the happy ot ending now a tragedy, and the mythopoetic structure shot to shit in the name of serialization and perpetual warfare. this stand true for all the sequel characters including rey and ben. the only question is are we going to get anything out of it? I compare it to home renovation. You can knock out a wall and the walls gone, but new opportunities arise. With Benlo, I’m reasonably confident that there will be at least some attempt to take advantage of the new space. With rey and the resistance kids? not so much. it just feels like they knocked down a blue wall to rebuild it as pink one and at the point it just feels like a waste of time because ive seen this before. Ive seen pure cinnamon roll desert orphan reform jedi order If this was all youre going to do that the fuck was the point? which circles around to my problem with team good guy this go around and That Scene. JJ twisted the story into a pretzel to justify the winners of the last round being the underdogs again and then rian twisted so much further the storys head may as well be up its own ass. And then at the very end he shoots it all to shit and rushes to reassure us its all gonna be okay. He removes the entire point of the underdog trope /the tension that comes from the fact that they might lose/. I mean there wasnt a whole lot of that to begin with already but really? So theres no tension that Reys gonna win so her journey feels frictionless, and theres no question where shes gonna end up so full offense why give a shit? Thats where the whole 'can rey lose a fight?’ thing comes from. Ppl want conflict in her arc to justify its existence and give us a reason why this her story to begin with. if the only character going through growth for all three movies is ben, if the only characters whos fate is up in the air is ben, and if all the tension in the reylo relationship comes from ben, then why is this /reys story/? why not just make it about the character actually driving all the drama and thus, the story?   As a final thought, im going to add that having Kylo be aware and insecure that hes never gonna be as Iconic as Vader was a great story choice, regardless of where ends up. Current Rebels, on the other hand, seems to have not gotten the memo that they are never gonna be as iconic as Original Rebels, and the story itself seems to being trying to sell them to me as being better. Rey is Luke but better, Poe/Finn are Han wo the smuggler grit, and id be lying if i said it didnt piss me off.

&

Long asks anon to kick down ur door again, AND ANOTHER THING. SW is a lotta things. Subtle aint one of them, and St hasnt changed in that regard. If you have to debate it chances are either a) ur arguing counter to the text in which case mor power to you but not really helpful for predictions or intended meaning or b) /it aint there. A bunch of ppl didnt like anidala, but nobody doubted we were supposed to think they were in love by the end of AOTC, bunch of ppl didnt like poes arc, but no one doubts he fucked up by not listening to holdo was the intended take away. Which brings to rey and flaws or lack there of. Were told rey has flaws but she has yet to suffer any real consequences from them with the exception of The Damn Parentage Wank, which again, pulls the double duty of making her hyper competent at everything. Because rey has no consequences for her flaws, from a story function pov there aren’t any. If rey did have a flaw to overcome, we would all agree what it was

Now won’t you all just look at this beautiful, spot on rant which has been lagging in my askbox since the last time Rey’s flaws or lack thereof were the discourse’s focus (November, I believe?) and suddenly became a thing again, courtesy of Tweetgate. I think you really summed up the crux of this debate wonderfully, anon.

I particularly agree with the part about Rey not getting narratively punished for whatever flaws we’d like her to have (great point about returning from behind the enemy lines with both arms still in place), when SW don’t stay away from allowing characters to get “punished” even for otherwise applaudable features - vide Padmé, whose idealism is what Palps manipulates into gaining more power (this is why Padmé will never come off as a Mary Sue or too perfect, btw). But I’ll say even more - Rey doesn’t even get called out on her flaws, except for by Ben, who’s mostly dismissed as a baddie like Palpatine saying Luke was foolish to rely on his friends. Let’s just consider one thing - both Anakin and Luke get called out on their flaws by Yoda (Anakin repeatedly and by lots of other people for that matter) whereas with Rey, the same grumpy-yet-jolly senex pops up from the afterlife to further inform us what a great jedi material she is.

TBH, I have a very cynical theory as to why Rey is being pushed as the main character while it’s difficult to deny that it’s Kylo Ben who does all the plot heavy lifting. I’m pretty sure Ben’s arc was the first one DLF thought out (and the big question is, was it the only one they thought out) and only later on decided to make Rey the main character, which also involved much less spontaneous writing. Mind you, it’s not as if benepemption didn’t have a manufactured subtaste to it, but with Rey’s heroine’s journey stiff structure occasionally substitutes any in-world explanations of her actions (this is why I have to hope renperor has some narrative purpose rather than happening because lovers need to be separated and anti-hero needs to achieve what he wanted in 2nd act). I feel as if whatever potential her character had (and hopefully still has, pending IX) got smothered by layer upon layer of making her likable by everyone, which largely relied on negative characterization: she’s not helpless, she’s not too naive, not cynical, not too emotional, not too emotionless, not morally corruptible, not anything you’ve ever complained about regarding any SW character, not falling for the bad boy, not not not - and in the end it’s kinda difficult to say what Rey is like and while the goal of making her widely likable was achieved, it also made it almost impossible to view her as loveably flawed/annoying like the classic characters. And on top of all this is the matter of making her a nobody just like you!, as DLF appears to say with uncle Sam’s gesture (which also kinda assumes the existence of a Star Wars fan as some uniform entity? because if you identify with her, good for you, I just don’t understand why the franchise assumes I’ll identify with her by the grace of being a SW fan alone), because, as you excellently put it, the message here is that everyone can be chosen by God - which again, it’s not as if the saga ever contradicted this, so why the hell make a case of it? I can’t agree that it’s made into Rey’s flaw, though, imo her low birth only serves to further frame her as an oppressed virtue. And I definitely agree regarding too much of her growth being left off-screen, or before the story ever begins. The problem here isn’t even that it is left off-screen (it’s not as if we had huge insight into any of the pt or ot characters) but rather that her characterizations is left off-screen while being depicted as at least untypical (unique to put it bluntly) for her situation (same goes for Finn). A hopeful, kind person growing up on her on her own in slavery under a nicer name is a rarity and DLF makes a case for it being a rarity - and this sparks up curiosity in her past, as if market pandering to Re/sky wasn’t enough. So from this pov her un-reveal being frustrating isn’t just a case of not wanting to love her or her self only a potentially deeper psychological question getting answered with well, light.

I should add, Ben’s arc feels like the most spontaneous one (though Finn’s may yet be a masterpiece) and he’s the one to admit his fear of not living up to Vader’s legacy, because I think he’s the character serving as the creators’ vessel, more or less like Luke was Lucas’ avatar in ot. In his fear regarding Vader’s legacy one can feel Disney’s fear due to having bought popculture’s holy grail and not being entirely sure what to do with it. On this background, Rey (a literal scavenger of OT’s pieces) and rebels 2.0 repeatedly blessed by Leia come off as what DLF would want to be. And the result is that the character which was supposed to be Vader 2.0 proves the most original and surprising one, whereas “breaths of fresh air” come off as room aromatizers with “fresh” written on them.

And as far as the plot being bended into a pretzel and then disappearing up it’s own ass, well, a part of me is still hoping that taking virtually the same villains as before is a mythological-psychoanalitical metaphor of a nigredo repeating itself until the unconscious gets accepted by the conscious…. but, tbh, as the leaks flow this hope is withering.

[enixamyram]

Hey, guess what, I’ve found another screen rant I want to react to! I wasn’t planning to do any more but, reading through this article, I just have SO many problems with it... So Let’s do another, agree or disagree with a Screenrant article made by someone with no bias at all. (Sarcasm for the last part by the way.) So let’s see:

Agreed with this point. People act like, if the characters weren’t on screen then they disappeared or something. Maybe they were just living their own lives?

... I don’t even understand this article. Apparently this is 20 things people get wrong and this point is that the timeline can make sense, but then OP goes on to say “However, the more characters were introduced and the more worlds the characters ventured into, it became clearer and clearer that time didn't work the same way everywhere... However, in a world of fairytales, expecting anything more than that is simply asking too much. What does it matter, exactly, when some of these events took place as long as we know that they were a long time ago in a universe not at all like our own?”

Like, so that means this isn’t something people get wrong - the timeline DOESN’T make sense - so what the hell is it doing in this article? You can’t claim you’ve solved it just because you shrug and go “yeah but it’s magic so what do you expect?”

I mean the text directly conflicts the title/bullet point. Luckily I can still safely say I disagree, both with the title and the text because the timeline became f*cked, and just making an embarrassed shrugging face doesn’t change that.

I can’t even say disagree because this is just plain wrong! I don’t quite understand this writer. I can’t tell what they’re deal is, like did they just give a poor title to their article?

Season 1 - The Original Curse Season 2 - Belle and Sneezy lost their memories. Season 3 - Everyone lost a year. Season 5 - Camelot Season 6 - Emma lost her memories Season 7 - Another Curse.

Notice how I left out 4? Well this is where I’m getting confused because this is what OP had to say about Season 4: “While season four dabbled with alternate universes, memories were never wiped or reset in the way they were in every other season.”

... But their memories WERE wiped! They were essentially in a curse because their memories WERE wiped and they WERE given new identities just like the original curse. So yes, memory wipes did in fact happen every single season!

So I can’t agree or disagree because maybe some people do call Ruby a lesbian, but most everyone I talk to calls her bi... So I’ma just skip this one.

Note: She’s bi people. This is canon. If you don’t agree then tough shit.

Agreed, there’s plenty of other ways true love can be proven. TLK is probably just the most convenient, lol.

Kind of agree? I mean I think most people do know and acknowledge this but I guess it can sometimes escape people without realising in passing sentences?

This is true. It was a lame and terrible reveal that made no sense but it was revealed.

... Like, I’m getting confused again. Because this title either doesn’t fit or the writer lives under a rock because no one get’s this wrong! Everyone - rightfully - calls out Zelena for what she did. Even Zelena fans admit what she did was messed up!

... I do agree, I don’t think she made up for all the awful things she did and she definitely became “one of the team” way too quickly for my liking. (I’m hesitant because I suddenly have an idea what side of the fandom wrote this article and I can pretty much predict where it’s going.)

AND THERE IT IS!

DISAGREE.  DISAGREE. DISAGREE. DISAGREE. DISAGREE. DISAGREE.

“Nothing says good guy like being an older man who takes advantage of a young girl, impregnates her, and lets her go to jail for crimes you yourself committed.” First off, we don’t know his age. Second, he didn’t ‘impregnant’ her. She got pregnant. It takes two to tango though I doubt the writer knows this. And third, Emma went to jail for HER crimes. Sorry, dear writer, but let me just fill you in. Aiding and abetting a fellow criminal IS A CRIME! Emma did wrong and she was punished for it. I don’t necessarily agree with what Neal did but he is not responsible for where Emma ended up.

“Even further, nothing says good guy like someone who mocks the woman he allegedly loves for the years of trauma, suffering, and scars she endured as a result of your callous, selfish behavior.” ... WHEN?!

“... Neal Cassidy became more and more like the selfish, frequently malicious parents who raised him.” ... Again, WHEN?! Like seriously, selfish maybe but malicious?!

“In no world would he have been the right man for Emma or a good father to Henry because he could never accept accountability for any of his many wrongdoings.” Except, you know, Neal knew Henry all of five minutes and was already dedicated to being a great dad to him and literally was WAY better at being a father to Henry than Hook ever was to the kid. And I added the Hook part because my God, the writer of this article couldn’t be more obvious a CS shipper if they had every sentence end with swans and pirate flags.

It’s amazing how, even dead, they’re still threatened by Neal’s character.

Maybe this was true in S6, but by S7 they had clearly retconned it, making the Wish Realm a very real place. Otherwise there’s a ton of plot holes and you’ve got to be a real idiot to say you’d rather accept plot holes than that the Wish Realm might actually be real.

(Also, just saying, another terrible title because what happened to Emma and Regina when they were in the Wish Realm very much DID happen. So again, really poor titles for this article that clearly doesn’t know what it’s point is.)

... She VIOLATED everyone’s minds by erasing their memories and TRIED TO MURDER ZELENA!

She may have had good intentions but that doesn’t change the fact that she was a villain for a season! Dude, have you never heard the phrase “the road to hell was paved with good intentions”?! I’ll defend Emma turning Hook into a Dark One for sure, but trying to completely ignore the awful things she did?! Jesus Christ!

Again... What? OP... Everyone already KNOWS this. This article is meant to be things people gets wrong but, honestly, I think OP’s the only idiot who gets things wrong at this point. So I’m once again torn because I agree with the statement but I don’t agree that this is something people get wrong.

*Sigh* OP’s giving me a migraine. Not because their statement is incorrect, but because all their reasoning is!

“Regina, as we know, went back and forth to points outside of Maine many times during the preceding 28 years.” It was actually explained, by Regina herself to Hook in Season 2, that because she (and he) had no cursed memories, crossing the town line would not affect them.

“Greg and Tamara are also able to cross the town lines, with Greg even remembering the tiny town for years and years after a traumatic encounter within it during his childhood.” Again. The town line affects people who ARE CURSED! This is made very clear! Henry can also cross the town line when he went to get Emma.

The title, once again, is misleading. People are able to leave - so long as they don’t CROSS THE TOWN LINE. That’s the part CURSED people are not able to do.

I’ve given up Agreeing and Disagreeing at this point. OP’s points are making my brain hurt so let’s just move on.

You’re right OP. It did serve a purpose. It’s purpose was to be a cash grab!

Apparently OP’s excuse is that Anna and Elsa helped Emma come into her own as a magic user? Like yeah, I’m calling bullshit. Emma had no problem using her magic until they brought Frozen in, then they made a whole storyline of Emma having problems just to justify having Elsa struggle and then help her with it.

And after they left they were barely even mentioned. So, again. NO PURPOSE. (Apart from a cash grab.)

Okay, so actually, I do agree. Regina is still Henry’s mum but the fact is, his adoption can’t be legal because Regina would need to have lied on her application and all the usual checks usually done for people wanting to adopt couldn’t possibly have happened.

I was going to agree on technicality but you know what? No.

DISAGREE!

Just because the couples aren’t perfect doesn’t make them toxic. (Using OP’s examples:) “Robin's relationship with Regina results in his being repeatedly assaulted and fathering a child as a result of that assault.” Wow, dude, wait to blame the girlfriend for some of the bad stuff that happened in Robin’s life. I sure feel sorry for whoever you end up with if this is how you see it. “Hook and Emma frequently lie to one another as well,” Lying does not equal a toxic relationship! Certain lies, maybe, but general lying is just what people do when they’re embarrassed or ashamed or upset. What counts is what you’re lying about and also whether or not you come clean about it.

The only one I’ll agree with is RumBelle but even then OP completely misses the reason WHY they’re a toxic relationship. Instead they generalise it into very un-toxic details.

... Again... Like... I agree with the statement but NO ONE GETS THIS WRONG!

OP is clearly just using this article as an excuse to bash Regina. And I’m not a Regina fan, but no, dude, if you’re gonna do this then make a “20 of the worst things Regina ever did” list. Not a “20 things people get wrong” and then list a bunch of things that one in ten people gets wrong!

And now OP’s repeating. Because I’m pretty sure this was covered in the 4th one? Like, agree. I guess. But it feels like OP was running out of things and figured Regina bashing again would be too obvious or something.

Okay. Now this is something a lot of people won’t agree with but... I do.

I agree the show was intended to be Emma’s story and that it then got popular and other characters got popular and it branched out into something more.

... However OP is still a colossus idiot because they ended on this sentence:

“It's what made the concept of a seventh season without almost any of the Charmings such a laughable concept - and such a colossal failure, as well.” And while Season 7 may not be the masterpiece I pretend it is to piss of anti’s, it is also far from the worst. OP just hates it because their fav wasn’t centre stage and they’re bitter as hell.

Wow this was probably the stupidest article yet. OP either clearly doesn’t know what they were meant to be doing (a list of things people often forget about the show) or they just wanted to make a list where they bitched a few points and couldn’t be bothered to think of a catchy title or reason why. Either way, OP’s an idiot and most of these points are ridiculously dumb.