#this is from the charioteer by mary renault

[endofthischain]

gonna throw up i think

[terpia]

I love this exchange lmao

[telltaleangelina]

“In the dream there had always been a pause in which he had looked up and said, “Next time you go away, I’m going with you”; and Ralph, who hadn’t had a first name in those days, had looked down all the same and answered, “Of course.””

[gayskogul]

Poster boys

[muggleriddle]

This re-reading of the Charioteer is being brutal

[renaultphile]

What Charm school did Ralph go to?

Been speculating for a while about how Ralph got so skilled with the ladies whilst also researching his religious background.

I wonder if he was roped in to 'recruiting' converts as a child/young man?

For some reason this snippet from 'Father and Son' by Edmund Gosse, describing the origins of his father's Plymouth Brethren chapter, made me think of Ralph:

"A few years before we came, a crew of Cornish fishermen, quite unknown to the villagers, were driven by stress of weather into the haven under the cliff. They landed, and, instead of going to a public-house, they looked about for a room where they could hold a prayer- meeting. They were devout Wesleyans; they had come from the open sea, they were far from home, and they had been starved by lack of their customary religious privileges. As they stood about in the street before their meeting, they challenged the respectable girls who came out to stare at them, with the question, 'Do you love the Lord Jesus, my maid?' Receiving dubious answers, they pressed the inhabitants to come in and pray with them, which several did......They were finely-built young men, with black beards and shining eyes, and I do not question that some flash of sex unconsciously mingled with the curious episode, although their behaviour was in all respects discreet. It was, perhaps, not wholly a coincidence that almost all those particular girls remained unmarried to the end of their lives. After two or three days, the fishermen went off to sea again. They prayed and sailed away, and the girls, who had not even asked their names, never heard of them again. But several of the young women were definitely converted."

[alovelywaytospendanevening]

"Dominated by Compulsion" by Siegfried Mandel (1959)

(Mr. Mandel, on the British faculty of Brooklyn Polytechnic Institute, is a critic of modern fiction from both sides of the Atlantic.)

Readers who became acquainted only recently with Mary Renault through her magnificent historical novel, "The King Must Die," may be surprised to learn that she has seven earlier works of fiction to her credit. Since the Thirties, she has had a large English audience for what might be called "psychological romances" placed in contemporary settings. "Middle Mist," for instance, concerns itself with three young ladies in Cornwall who slowly work out their personal problems; "Return to Night" features a plaintive duet between a small-town lady doctor and a would-be actor; "North Face" allows two strangers to solve their marital difficulties while mountain climbing. In all these novels, Miss Renault masters a lyrical style, meticulous and probing, and introduces us into a world of emotions so delicate and private that the reader often feels like an intruder. Much the same can be said for "The Charioteer," an early Renault novel which pictures the subtleties and crudities that mark a subterranean fraternity of homosexuals in wartime England. Since Miss Renault deliberately refrains from sitting in judgment on her characters and offers no hashed-over sociological explanations, the entire novel hinges on the effective portrayal of Laurie Odell. We must infer that because Laurie never really knew his father, he was disposed to seek a masculine image and ideal among his surroundings. At prep school (which in fiction seems to be a breeding place for taboo relationships) Laurie "was lifted into a kind of exalted dream, part loyalty, part hero-worship, all romance. Half-remembered images moved in it, the tents of Troy, the columns of Athens, David waiting in an olive grove for the sound of Jonathan's bow." In answer to this dream comes Ralph Lanyon, a campus hero, who symbolically offers Laurie a copy of Plato's "Phaedrus," a discourse on love. Later their lives become more firmly entwined when Ralph saves Laurie at Dunkirk. While recovering from a kneecap wound, Laurie meets other members of Ralph's fraternity - chillingly etched by the author. Some of them carry their inclinations to excess, and in distress Laurie turns to a mild-mannered hospital orderly for understanding. This relationship is doomed because Laurie is so completely dominated by compulsion and instinct that he has no choice but to commit himself to Ralph permanently. As if to illustrate Laurie's expressed regrets that he was not born in ancient Athens where bisexuality was permissive, where he could have had a family and a lover, too, Miss Renault wrote a sequel, "The Last of the Wine," a novel set in the times of Plato. Viewed from a historic distance the subject becomes less unpalatable. While working against the inevitable odds of deviational material, the author has a breadth of insight that rarely permits "The Charioteer" to falter. At times Miss Renault echoes the demonic tone of Proust's "Cities of the Plain" and adopts the outspokenness of such related contemporary novels as Charles Jackson's "The Fall of Valor."

Originally published in the September 1959 issue of Mattachine Review magazine.

[a-kind-of-merry-war]

'I must say, Spud, you're remarkably well balanced for the offspring of divorce. Quite often being queer is the least of it.'

Deeply relatable quote from The Charioteer (Mary Renault)

[gabriestat]

i bought my copy of the charioteer by mary renault about 2 years ago to a middle aged lady on the internet on a resale app for 3€ and i had to meet her for that and she had me meet her at the entrance of a church from a somewhat posh neighborhood after she attended mass service there. she really sold me soldiers love triangle and sexuality vs love yaoi novel in front of her husband and kid in a church

[formerstingray]

what research (texts, websites, books, etc) did you do/read to write abt Odysseus and Penelope? I want to begin writing but want to be accurate in clothing, customs, wording, and more so what kind of research did you do?

So, disclaimer, I studied classics and Greek at university which really helped haha, the attempts toward accuracy in the fic are the accumulated product of years.

Re. wording: I think the hardest thing to get right in retelling (Homer fic counts as retelling) is the way of simulating a kind of archaic tone without actually using one and putting off your readers. Too modern sounds ridiculous, and too old-fashioned sounds even more ridiculous. For me, a writer that pulls this off astoundingly well is Mary Renault, so read some of her books if you want to get a sense of how to balance a timeless sense of tone/narrative voice without coming off as silly or just foolishly out of place. I also recommend Mendelsohn's translations of the remarkably talented modern Greek poet C.P. Cavafy.

Re. Clothing and customs: Most of my inspo came from Homer himself. Remember, Homer is technically writing about the Bronze Age (and occasionally adds Bronze Age details like certain helmets or chariots), but he knew virtually nothing about it. So, the values and customs practiced by the characters in the Iliad and Odyssey are far more reflective of the Iron Age he lived in. This gives you, as a reteller, creative license to draw upon both ages. I took inspiration from a wide range of sources spanning from roughly 1300 - 800 BC. Some beginner friendly sources are:

The Cambridge Companion to the Aegean Bronze Age

Bettany Hughes' Helen of Troy (relating ofc to Helen but also Bronze age women)

Bettany Hughes' doc on Minoan culture (available on youtube)

Judith Barringer's Ancient Greek Art and Archeology has an invaluable section on Mycenaean stuff (I have the textbook so if you want pics on anything specific feel free to ask). Because our written records from the time are limited to economic documents, most of Mycenaean life can be gleaned from the physical artefacts, frescoes, and remains of fortified palatial complexes.

https://textileranger.com/2014/10/25/mycenaean-textile-history/ on Bronze age textiles

Body, Dress and Identity in Ancient Greece by Mireille M. Lee

There are endless websites online that are helpful for inspiration. The main thing to keep in mind is that accuracy is something to aim for, but not a rulebook, because even Homer himself was not 'accurate' about the period he was writing about. Good luck, I cannot wait to read what you come up with!

[river-gale]

2, 6, 14, and 24 for the reading asks?

HI BLUEJAY!!

2. Did you reread anything? What?

yes. absolutely. i am a serial rereader. as a matter of fact when i really like a book, i express this by reading it twice (or more times) in a row! so please don't ask how many times i've read the mars house and the bacchae this year, the answer to both is 'many'

but what i think this question is really asking is 'did you reread any books this year that you first read in OTHER years, instead of feverishly yesterday afternoon' and the answer to that is also yes! i reread the charioteer, the goblin emperor, and winter's orbit, among others!!

6. Was there anything you meant to read, but never got to?

ugh yes. i just let a hold lapse on navigational entanglements by aliette de bodard, which i was genuinely really looking forward to, i was just never in the right mood :')

14. What books do you want to finish before the year is over?

IT IS TIME for my annual winter solstice the dark is rising reread!! fun and seasonal!! also i have dyke (geology) by sabrina imbler out from the library and i really want to finish it

24. Did you DNF anything? Why?

also yes :') w/me it's usually a right book wrong time situation!! i didn't finish mary renault's the king must die or ann leckie's ancillary justice. i'll give both another shot in 2025, maybe!

[proto-language]

tagged by @sapokanikan to make myself in this picrew (sorry, i could not settle on a single look lol) and talk about my current interests!!

i've been interested lately in... whatever labels you could apply to a set of literature which includes e.m. forster (thus far 'maurice' and 'a room with a view'), evelyn waugh (just finished 'brideshead revisited' a few minutes ago!), mary renault ('the charioteer'), d.h. lawrence (though i haven't yet started 'lady chatterley's lover'), and possibly also patricia highsmith's 'the talented mr ripley'. a series of overlapping circles with labels like 'boundary-breaking sexuality', 'changes and not-changes within the class system', 'vintage oxbridge', 'depictions of the mediterranean, particularly italy' (a bug caught partially from my girlfriend's academic work), and 'the changing role of religion in (british) society'. i finished virginia woolf's 'orlando' the other day too - possibly that could find a place in some of those circles too.

i've also been going through an emo phase of a magnitude not seen since i was 10. help.

i'll tag @chiropteracupola @margridarnauds @phoenixflames12 @after-perfect and @xserpx !

[saintsaensreads]

A glimpse into 2025

This year many discoveries were made, and hopefully 2025 will be just as full of surprises. But let's be honest, I have (as many of us do) a growing TBR, and maybe 2025 will be the year for some of the novels waiting there.

Here's a look at what I hope to find time and excitement to read in the months to come

Gunnar's daughter, Sigrid Undset

Set in Norway and Iceland at the beginning of the eleventh century, this is the story of the beautiful, spoiled Vigdis Gunnarsdatter, who is casually raped by the man she had wanted to love. A woman of courage and intelligence, Vigdis is toughened by adversity. Alone she raises the child conceived in violence, repeatedly defending her autonomy in a world governed by men. Alone she rebuilds her life and restores her family's honor, until an unrelenting social code propels her to take the action that again destroys her happiness. More than a historical romance, Gunnar's Daughter depicts characters driven by passion and vengefulness, themes as familiar in Undset's own time - and in ours - as they were in the Saga Age.

Manuscrit trouvé à Saragosse, Jean Potocki

Arrivé en Espagne pour y devenir capitaine des gardes wallones, le jeune Alphonse Van Worden est entraîné dans une étrange aventure. La Sierra Morena qu'il choisit de traverser pour se rendre à Madrid, jouit alors (début du XVIIe siècle) d'une sinistre réputation. A l'orée de cette contrée maudite, un gibet orné de pendus suppliciés met en condition le voyageur assez intrépide pour s'y aventurer. C'est là pourtant qu'à travers les étapes et les épreuves d'une quête initiatique faite de terreurs et de délices alternées, le jeune Alphonse s'engagera dans la voie du vrai savoir

Moon Witch, Spider King, Marlon James

Part adventure, part chronicle of an indomitable woman – the witch Sogolon – who bows to no man, this is an unforgettable exploration of power, personality, and the places where they overlap, set in a world at once ancient and startlingly modern.

Notre-Dame-des-Fleurs, Jean Genet

Jean Genet’s debut novel Our Lady of the Flowers, which is often considered to be his masterpiece, was written entirely in the solitude of a prison cell. A semi- autobiographical account of one man’s journey through the Paris demi-monde, dubbed “the epic of masturbation” by no less a figure than Jean-Paul Sartre, the novel’s exceptional value lies in its exquisite ambiguity.

The Charioteer, Mary Renault

After enduring an injury at Dunkirk during World War II, Laurie Odell is sent to a rural veterans’ hospital in England to convalesce. There he befriends the young, bright Andrew, a conscientious objector serving as an orderly. As they find solace and companionship together in the idyllic surroundings of the hospital, their friendship blooms into a discreet, chaste romance. Then one day, Ralph Lanyon, a mentor from Laurie’s schoolboy days, suddenly reappears in Laurie’s life, and draws him into a tight-knit social circle of world-weary gay men. Laurie is forced to choose between the sweet ideals of innocence and the distinct pleasures of experience.

The passion, Jeanette Winterson

Set during the tumultuous years of the Napoleonic Wars, The Passion intertwines the destinies of two remarkable people: Henri, a simple French soldier, who follows Napoleon from glory to Russian ruin; and Villanelle, the red-haired, web-footed daughter of a Venetian boatman, whose husband has gambled away her heart. In Venice’s compound of carnival, chance, and darkness, the pair meet their singular destiny.

[renaultphile]

I find it amazing how relevant those bits are to modern times - more relevant than ever! I also noticed that they have this 'argument' about Laurie getting rescued by Ralph who was in the forces, but the irony is that at Dunkirk, the rescues were done by all kinds of people, ordinary citizens and the military, and during the war the Quakers would have saved many lives! I think it's so clever that Mary has them focus on this rather than finding a way to reconcile Ralph and Andrew's contributions.

“‘Machine’ is journalese....Inexact terms like that are part of the war psychosis. People are never machines, even when they want to be. You have to start somewhere.”

andrew raynes you will always be an anti war king to me, idc what anyone else (ralph) says you will always be famous

[philosophermalcolmtucker]

Sooooo......do let me have your thoughts on The Charioteer 🥺

AHHH dear this book means the whole world to me! This is the first works of Mary Renault as well as one of the first queer literature (together with Brideshead, Maurice and David Blaize) I read. (Quite a long time ago…… used to track livejournal “Mary's Handmaidens” to read the discussions and fics there🥺) It left an indent in my brain that I will never forget, that love is an all-consuming uncontrollable magnetism that we cannot fight against-love is the shining sliver of hope when hopelessness makes us cave on ourselves or lean on visionary hope. And I doubt anyone who read the book would ever forget such a charismatic character that is Ralph Lanyon.

Tho reading such a book full of things not said, or said elliptically, or only alluded to, or deliberately coded – at times indeed feels like fumbling in the dark. All the more so cos admonitions to himself aside, Laurie imo is hardly clear-thinking or a complete reliable narrator at all times. But I do so enjoy Laurie’s journey of self-discovery and reconciliation with himself and his identity. As it simply resonates with oneself sometimes- the tension between fear and longing, the inner struggle for truth and integrity in one's personal life.

And tbh the love “triangle” never feels counterbalanced to me actually. Andrew, despite (or because of) his ideals, feels really insubstantial at all times; he is, imo, seen primarily through the lens of idealized, disembodied, almost passive devotion to chasing a belief of Laurie’s own (as well as his idealization of Ralph in 19).

While Ralph, imprints himself strongly on us readers through his actions, words, and physicality. He does not vest any particular pride or integrity or sense of self in the queer community around him, but rather in the way he acts and takes responsibility for himself and friends (Alec, Bim, Sandy, etc…) –in his behaviour towards others and his actions in relation to his own principles. Moreover, as Ralph is in fact just as much an idealist as Laurie and the biggest romantic in the book. (Quit denying, Ralph. You old sap.) “When I heard you were dead, it seemed inevitable somehow. And after that, so did everything else.” And when Spud reappears in his life- “Do you believe in luck?” “I’m a sailor.” URGHHHHHHH *ugly sobs* It is undeniable that it is Ralph who believes most unwaveringly in love, united, in heart, mind, body and soul.

It was also Ralph, as well as TC that taught me what it means to know and be known in one’s entirety. “Not just for what you are, but what you do with it.”

OH and one character aside from the protagonists I find fascinating: Actually it’s Bim! I so want to learn more about his crush on Ralph and what happened on their car trip from the party🤭

[muggleriddle]

Every time my sister goes to the UK, I ask her to bring me a book and that’s how my collection of Mary Renault’s novels is coming together