#this is from the charioteer by mary renault

[endofthischain]

gonna throw up i think

[terpia]

I love this exchange lmao

[telltaleangelina]

“In the dream there had always been a pause in which he had looked up and said, “Next time you go away, I’m going with you”; and Ralph, who hadn’t had a first name in those days, had looked down all the same and answered, “Of course.””

[gayskogul]

Poster boys

[muggleriddle]

This re-reading of the Charioteer is being brutal

[renaultphile]

What Charm school did Ralph go to?

Been speculating for a while about how Ralph got so skilled with the ladies whilst also researching his religious background.

I wonder if he was roped in to 'recruiting' converts as a child/young man?

For some reason this snippet from 'Father and Son' by Edmund Gosse, describing the origins of his father's Plymouth Brethren chapter, made me think of Ralph:

"A few years before we came, a crew of Cornish fishermen, quite unknown to the villagers, were driven by stress of weather into the haven under the cliff. They landed, and, instead of going to a public-house, they looked about for a room where they could hold a prayer- meeting. They were devout Wesleyans; they had come from the open sea, they were far from home, and they had been starved by lack of their customary religious privileges. As they stood about in the street before their meeting, they challenged the respectable girls who came out to stare at them, with the question, 'Do you love the Lord Jesus, my maid?' Receiving dubious answers, they pressed the inhabitants to come in and pray with them, which several did......They were finely-built young men, with black beards and shining eyes, and I do not question that some flash of sex unconsciously mingled with the curious episode, although their behaviour was in all respects discreet. It was, perhaps, not wholly a coincidence that almost all those particular girls remained unmarried to the end of their lives. After two or three days, the fishermen went off to sea again. They prayed and sailed away, and the girls, who had not even asked their names, never heard of them again. But several of the young women were definitely converted."

[alovelywaytospendanevening]

"Dominated by Compulsion" by Siegfried Mandel (1959)

(Mr. Mandel, on the British faculty of Brooklyn Polytechnic Institute, is a critic of modern fiction from both sides of the Atlantic.)

Readers who became acquainted only recently with Mary Renault through her magnificent historical novel, "The King Must Die," may be surprised to learn that she has seven earlier works of fiction to her credit. Since the Thirties, she has had a large English audience for what might be called "psychological romances" placed in contemporary settings. "Middle Mist," for instance, concerns itself with three young ladies in Cornwall who slowly work out their personal problems; "Return to Night" features a plaintive duet between a small-town lady doctor and a would-be actor; "North Face" allows two strangers to solve their marital difficulties while mountain climbing. In all these novels, Miss Renault masters a lyrical style, meticulous and probing, and introduces us into a world of emotions so delicate and private that the reader often feels like an intruder. Much the same can be said for "The Charioteer," an early Renault novel which pictures the subtleties and crudities that mark a subterranean fraternity of homosexuals in wartime England. Since Miss Renault deliberately refrains from sitting in judgment on her characters and offers no hashed-over sociological explanations, the entire novel hinges on the effective portrayal of Laurie Odell. We must infer that because Laurie never really knew his father, he was disposed to seek a masculine image and ideal among his surroundings. At prep school (which in fiction seems to be a breeding place for taboo relationships) Laurie "was lifted into a kind of exalted dream, part loyalty, part hero-worship, all romance. Half-remembered images moved in it, the tents of Troy, the columns of Athens, David waiting in an olive grove for the sound of Jonathan's bow." In answer to this dream comes Ralph Lanyon, a campus hero, who symbolically offers Laurie a copy of Plato's "Phaedrus," a discourse on love. Later their lives become more firmly entwined when Ralph saves Laurie at Dunkirk. While recovering from a kneecap wound, Laurie meets other members of Ralph's fraternity - chillingly etched by the author. Some of them carry their inclinations to excess, and in distress Laurie turns to a mild-mannered hospital orderly for understanding. This relationship is doomed because Laurie is so completely dominated by compulsion and instinct that he has no choice but to commit himself to Ralph permanently. As if to illustrate Laurie's expressed regrets that he was not born in ancient Athens where bisexuality was permissive, where he could have had a family and a lover, too, Miss Renault wrote a sequel, "The Last of the Wine," a novel set in the times of Plato. Viewed from a historic distance the subject becomes less unpalatable. While working against the inevitable odds of deviational material, the author has a breadth of insight that rarely permits "The Charioteer" to falter. At times Miss Renault echoes the demonic tone of Proust's "Cities of the Plain" and adopts the outspokenness of such related contemporary novels as Charles Jackson's "The Fall of Valor."

Originally published in the September 1959 issue of Mattachine Review magazine.

[proto-language]

tagged by @sapokanikan to make myself in this picrew (sorry, i could not settle on a single look lol) and talk about my current interests!!

i've been interested lately in... whatever labels you could apply to a set of literature which includes e.m. forster (thus far 'maurice' and 'a room with a view'), evelyn waugh (just finished 'brideshead revisited' a few minutes ago!), mary renault ('the charioteer'), d.h. lawrence (though i haven't yet started 'lady chatterley's lover'), and possibly also patricia highsmith's 'the talented mr ripley'. a series of overlapping circles with labels like 'boundary-breaking sexuality', 'changes and not-changes within the class system', 'vintage oxbridge', 'depictions of the mediterranean, particularly italy' (a bug caught partially from my girlfriend's academic work), and 'the changing role of religion in (british) society'. i finished virginia woolf's 'orlando' the other day too - possibly that could find a place in some of those circles too.

i've also been going through an emo phase of a magnitude not seen since i was 10. help.

i'll tag @chiropteracupola @margridarnauds @phoenixflames12 @after-perfect and @xserpx !

[philosophermalcolmtucker]

Sooooo......do let me have your thoughts on The Charioteer 🥺

AHHH dear this book means the whole world to me! This is the first works of Mary Renault as well as one of the first queer literature (together with Brideshead, Maurice and David Blaize) I read. (Quite a long time ago…… used to track livejournal “Mary's Handmaidens” to read the discussions and fics there🥺) It left an indent in my brain that I will never forget, that love is an all-consuming uncontrollable magnetism that we cannot fight against-love is the shining sliver of hope when hopelessness makes us cave on ourselves or lean on visionary hope. And I doubt anyone who read the book would ever forget such a charismatic character that is Ralph Lanyon.

Tho reading such a book full of things not said, or said elliptically, or only alluded to, or deliberately coded – at times indeed feels like fumbling in the dark. All the more so cos admonitions to himself aside, Laurie imo is hardly clear-thinking or a complete reliable narrator at all times. But I do so enjoy Laurie’s journey of self-discovery and reconciliation with himself and his identity. As it simply resonates with oneself sometimes- the tension between fear and longing, the inner struggle for truth and integrity in one's personal life.

And tbh the love “triangle” never feels counterbalanced to me actually. Andrew, despite (or because of) his ideals, feels really insubstantial at all times; he is, imo, seen primarily through the lens of idealized, disembodied, almost passive devotion to chasing a belief of Laurie’s own (as well as his idealization of Ralph in 19).

While Ralph, imprints himself strongly on us readers through his actions, words, and physicality. He does not vest any particular pride or integrity or sense of self in the queer community around him, but rather in the way he acts and takes responsibility for himself and friends (Alec, Bim, Sandy, etc…) –in his behaviour towards others and his actions in relation to his own principles. Moreover, as Ralph is in fact just as much an idealist as Laurie and the biggest romantic in the book. (Quit denying, Ralph. You old sap.) “When I heard you were dead, it seemed inevitable somehow. And after that, so did everything else.” And when Spud reappears in his life- “Do you believe in luck?” “I’m a sailor.” URGHHHHHHH *ugly sobs* It is undeniable that it is Ralph who believes most unwaveringly in love, united, in heart, mind, body and soul.

It was also Ralph, as well as TC that taught me what it means to know and be known in one’s entirety. “Not just for what you are, but what you do with it.”

OH and one character aside from the protagonists I find fascinating: Actually it’s Bim! I so want to learn more about his crush on Ralph and what happened on their car trip from the party🤭

[renaultphile]

I find it amazing how relevant those bits are to modern times - more relevant than ever! I also noticed that they have this 'argument' about Laurie getting rescued by Ralph who was in the forces, but the irony is that at Dunkirk, the rescues were done by all kinds of people, ordinary citizens and the military, and during the war the Quakers would have saved many lives! I think it's so clever that Mary has them focus on this rather than finding a way to reconcile Ralph and Andrew's contributions.

“‘Machine’ is journalese....Inexact terms like that are part of the war psychosis. People are never machines, even when they want to be. You have to start somewhere.”

andrew raynes you will always be an anti war king to me, idc what anyone else (ralph) says you will always be famous

[carrotcakecrumble]

“Well, really, my dear, I was more or less swept off my feet. Between ourselves…”

Using this as my The Charioteer (Mary Renault) (1953) advertisement post <3

Description:

After enduring an injury at Dunkirk during World War II, Laurie Odell is sent to a rural veterans’ hospital in England to convalesce. There he befriends the young, bright Andrew, a conscientious objector serving as an orderly. As they find solace and companionship together in the idyllic surroundings of the hospital, their friendship blooms into a discreet, chaste romance. Then one day, Ralph Lanyon, a mentor from Laurie’s schoolboy days, suddenly reappears in Laurie’s life, and draws him into a tight-knit social circle of world-weary gay men. Laurie is forced to choose between the sweet ideals of innocence and the distinct pleasures of experience. (Goodreads)

if you see this and haven’t read it already (or are due for a re-read) then go and do that right now and then come back here and scream with me about it pls&ty

(It’s free online somewhere!! If anyone has the link then feel free to put it in the rb’s or the comments! I’d be very grateful <33)

[muggleriddle]

Every time my sister goes to the UK, I ask her to bring me a book and that’s how my collection of Mary Renault’s novels is coming together

[alovelywaytospendanevening]

I just wanted to say thank you so, so much for the Wingmen recommendation 💖 I doubt if I would have found this book by accident and I loved it so much!! I have just finished the book and I am struggling to string a sentence together right now, still processing. So I thought I would ask you your thoughts on the book and why you like it so much!

Oh, I'm so glad you liked it!

While The Charioteer is probably my favorite novel ever, Wingmen is not far off from the top spot. As a historian, I always say good historical fiction can teach you a lot, and I did learn by reading Wingmen. The author clearly knew the stuff he was writing about: the aircraft, the dates, the battles, the Navy lifestyle, the whole war effort... It's all detailed and realistic, a really immersive experience. Even if the romance is the main draw, this is a true military fiction work.

And the romance. I love Fred and Jack. Case wanted to raise the bar for gay characters in the genre, and he achieved this. Notice that in spite of the period and the prejudices, this isn't a story about homophobia — it's a war story with a love affair. Yeah, Fred and Jack eventually suffer from prejudice, but the main point is that they are warriors. A warrior couple, as Eric Patterson described them, willing to sacrifice themselves for each other, and whose love was built around a strong sense of mutual respect.

Despite the realism, the plot isn't just a bunch of events following each other. It works in a carefully crafted crescendo, it has rhythm, and it's very satisfying to follow. The battle scenes are incredible; I remember being so tense when I was reading them for the first time! The author is also never dismissive towards women or Japanese people (despite some characters presenting period-typical takes), which is refreshing for a 1970s book of this kind. He was cautious when it comes to love scenes between the main characters, but that can be excused (particularly if you’re used to Mary Renault).

And I have to say I find Duane Higgins a fascinating character. Unlike Fred and Jack, you never really know what is going on inside his head (but I have some theories!).

[renaultphile]

Well, we have a result! Thank you so much everyone for the suggestions and arguments - it's Mary Renault so of course we would have to unpick every last angle on Kindness. I'm content with Mervyn winning as it includes a bit of an ulterior motive, some genuine kindness (well Mervyn seems convinced!) and some unbearable poignancy given what Laurie is about to do.....

And let's spare a thought for Andrew, who works all night so that he can come to the hospital with Laurie, not that he gets much thanks.

Poll on moments of Kindness in The Charioteer

Well, thank you to everyone who had me basking in a warm glow of kindness yesterday with all your lovely suggestions for a poll. I have done my best to incorporate as many as possible, and please continue to mention your favourites and reasons why........Here goes

[bi4bihankking]

The Lesbiana's Guide to Catholic School Summary:

Yami prefers to be known for her killer eyeliner, not for being one of the only Mexican kids at her new, mostly white, rich Catholic school - or for being gay. So after being outed by her ex-best friend, before transferring to Slayton Catholic, Yami decides to lie low, make her mum proud and definitely NOT fall in love. The thing is, it's hard to fake being straight when Bo, the only openly queer girl at school, is so annoyingly perfect. And smart. And cute. So cute.

The Charioteer Summary:

After being wounded at Dunkirk in World War II, Laurie Odell is sent back home to a rural British hospital. Standing out among the orderlies is Andrew, a bright conscientious objector raised as a Quaker. The unspoken romance between the two men is tested when Ralph, a friend of Laurie’s from school, re-enters his life, introducing him into a milieu of jaded, experienced gay men. Will Laurie reconcile himself to Ralph’s embrace, or can he offer Andrew the idealized, Platonic intimacy he yearns for?

[mademoiselle-red]

Reading the Renault fandom dissertation, part 4: the online TC fandom analysis begins…

An academic decided to write about us, online fans of Mary Renault’s works, for her phd dissertation in 2018, and as the subject of her research, I will be covering & commenting on what she wrote over a series of posts ✍️��� (Here is part 1, part 2, part 3, part 5, and part 6)

For part 4, we begin to delve into Chou’s analysis of the online TC fandom, which she calls the “millennial fandom” because it sprung up in the new millennium (the mid-2000s).

“While Renault’s works have mostly lost their relevance for readers of historical fiction and gay literature, Renault has found a new fandom in internet communities. On LiveJournal.com, the social networking website that has been a platform for many fandom communities since 1999, there are two major communities devoted to Renault and her works: maryrenaultfics (since 2004) and maryrenault (2005). While these communities have become less active due to decreasing popularity of LiveJournal itself, Renault fandom is still active on more recent fandom platforms such as Tumblr and Archive of Our Own”

So far this checks out. These are all the places we have congregated in.

“Renault’s new fans are not the “older gay men” who have gone digital, nor are they the “serious-minded teenagers” interested in classical times, or the academics who are finally paying the author her long-overdue attention. The cult popularity that Renault’s works achieved in the community of online fan “prosumers,” especially for those who are interested in “slash”—fantasy about male homoeroticism largely produced for and by women—demands a renewed examination of how Renault’s works could be reread and re-evaluated.”

I’m pretty sure there are middle aged men, academics, and serious minded history-obsessed teens among us. But cis women (and bisexual folks) do comprise half of the fandom (according to an informal poll I ran a while back).

“According to Fanlore Wiki, one of the largest Wikipedia websites about English- speaking fan activities, one of Renault’s LiveJournal community has been in existence since 2004, aptly named “Mary’s Handmaidens.” On the Fanlore page about “Mary’s Handmaidens,” a passage describes the gender and sexual constituent of the online community: “The community includes members of both sexes, with (by comparison with many other fandoms) a notable contingent of men, though the majority of writers of fan fiction are women. Various sexual orientations are represented among the membership.” The statement about a “notable contingent of men” is a curious one compared to the “handmaidens” in the title of the community. Despite its consciously inclusive taglines (“the community includes members of both sexes”, “various sexual orientations are represented”), the community adopts a female persona as its identity.”

This is a fair point! The handmaidens group name really wasn’t inclusive. And cis women did and still do comprise the largest group in Renault fandoms (and slash fandoms in general).

“Another example of Renault’s Internet fandom is The Theban Band’s fan arts based on Renault’s novels (see fig. 4). Among fan artworks on Renault’s works by The Theban Band, one piece based on The Charioteer illustrates serial lines of flights from the fans to Renault, from Renault to her characters, and then from her characters to antiquity (see fig. 5). The artwork demonstrates the fantastical disposition of the simultaneous disidentification and cross- identification with otherness, which in the scene depicted is embodied in a leap to another time and place. This artwork captures the moment in which Ralph and Laurie’s flirtatious book-exchange takes place in The Charioteer.”

What about this above image demonstrates disidentification and cross-identification with its subject matter? It appears to be a just a faithful visual rendition of the scene from the novel.

“If Ralph is attempting to initiate Laurie to homosexuality, it is interesting that the knowledge of homosexuality that he passes on (instead of homosexuality itself) is explained as a fantasy. In this scene of erotic initiation of a young boy, the only physical contact between the two characters is through a book that is “just a nice idea.” In the same scene, the two are depicted as dangerously close to a kiss In the passage, Ralph merely makes an “outward movement” and then steps back. What takes place in between, the “[h]alf-remembered images” of “the tents of Troy, the columns of Athens, David waiting in an olive grove for the sound of Jonathan’s bow” preoccupy Laurie’s mind strangely more so than the immediate presence of Ralph.”

I guess she is on the no-kiss team for chapter 2. 😚

“Together with the Phaedrus that Laurie physically receives, the fantasy of a homoerotic past mediates the modern, homosexual relationship between Laurie and Ralph throughout the entire story. In this sense, Phaedrus functions for the two characters much like how Renault’s books function for her readers. The Charioteer is an adoring look to the past clothed as a story about the inner struggles of a modern homosexual, or, more precisely, about how the struggles must be negotiated through a fantasy of the past. Renault’s books were for her mid-century gay readers “a badge of homosexuality” in much the same way Plato’s Phaedrus is for Ralph and Laurie: a communication about desire in the present through a collective fantasy of a past that contains the ideal form of that desire. […] Laurie looks back into a mythical past in order to contextualize his homosexuality, and Renault herself turns to the idea of Greek Love to write about male homoeroticism. In a similar way, the 21st-century fans locate in Renault’s works a kind of male homoeroticism that seems unavailable in the here and now of post-gay sexual politics.”

What are post-gay sexual politics? In what way precisely is the kind of male homoeroticism in Renault’s works, and in TC in particular (since this passage focuses on TC) no longer available in the here and now? While things have improved a lot for queer people, especially here in the west, homophobia has not gone away! Do all LGBTQ people in the Americas and Europe (where Renault’s books are published) no longer face familial and social ostracism after coming out? Readers both in the old livejournal and here on tumblr have mentioned how they could relate to TC because they come from homophobic families and communities. Through TC and the Greek novels, people can read about characters experiencing similar emotions and situations, across time, space and sometimes gender, and feel comforted, knowing that they are not alone, that this love exists, it is real, and it will find a way.

“The three-fold leap in time for Renault’s millennial fans constitutes a fantasy that is thrice removed from the “reality” of sexual desire. If Ralph and Laurie could be said to negotiate their own identity through an ancient Greek philosopher, and if as critics have argued, Renault masks her own lesbian identity by male homoeroticism located both temporally and cultural distant from her own, it is much more difficult to argue that there is a sexual truth being filtered through Plato, Renault’s characters, and finally Renault herself for the millennial fans.”

While Laurie & Ralph and the mid-century gay readers use The Phaedrus / The Charioteer to communicate their sexuality through “a collective fantasy of a past that contains the ideal form of that desire”, the “millennial fans”, according to Chou, are too far removed from the “reality” of sexual desire to receive “a sexual truth.” This assumes that the millennial fans do not use The Charioteer to explore and understand their own sexuality and cannot relate their own sexual realities to the same-sex desires depicted in the novel. This, as I said in the paragraph above, is not true, since many readers in these online communities do identify as LGBTQ+ and can relate to LGBTQ+ experiences. It is true that many of the millennial fans are not specifically gay men using these gay books to reveal their sexualities to each other. And there are indeed straight women among us, but in my experience, we are definitely NOT a majority straight-women group. Most of us are queer people who, like Ralph/Laurie and the mid-century gay readers, have found each other through this book (as friends and as lovers ❤️)

My commentary on Chou’s online TC fandom analysis continues in part 5, and a tumblr username familiar to many of us here makes a surprising appearance in the dissertation 👀👀👀