#this is an anti norman osborn post because he is unlikable

[kattt-5865]

Right. I'm in the rambling mood. So this post is probably going to be a whole load of nonsense, but fuck it I ball. I'm boutta yap to everyone about why I think Norman Osborn is a villain I can't sympathise with.

Let's start this by talking about villains I CAN sympathise with; Otto and Flint. I can sympathise with the other two because they have stories that make me feel empathetic. Flint wants to help his sick daughter, even if it's through illegal means. Otto had effectively a perfect life; a stable career and a loving wife, and he was doing what he enjoyed. When he loses it, it's bound to cause some empathy. Yes, his ambition is the cause of it all, but regardless, he lost practically everything.

With Norman, there's none of this. I don't feel any sort of sympathy. NWH's portrayal of him just makes it seem like his actions aren't his fault. In the Raimi Trilogy, the opposite is true. Norman wants the control, the power, but to accomplish that, he would taint his image. He doesn't want to taint his image because that would simply cause more problems. The serum simply just removed his inhibitions. Having had his inhibitions removed through the Goblin, he can do the things he wanted to do but without tainting his image. Norman lost nothing to achieve his goals.

But then you wonder, "Why didn't the same happen to Harry?"

It's because Harry had one goal in mind; kill Spider-man. He didn't want to harm anyone else, just him. Norman didn't care who he hurt, whereas Harry only wanted to harm Peter/Spidey.

Besides this, Norman was generally a bad father, too. That helps us sympathise much less.

Anyways, thanks for listening to me ramble, I had to get my thoughts out before I don't get any sleep ;-;

[hellzyeahwebwielingessays]

The Not-So-Amazing Mary Jane Part 4: The Death of Mysterio

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Last time we began our look at the life of Mysterio. In this post we’ll continue our retrospective, starting with the 1990s.

The 1990s: Helping Harry

We come now to an event that chronologically would’ve happened in the 1990s but was retroactively established in 2009.

During Brand New Day (ASM #581 specifically) we learned via retcon that Mysterio was responsible for faking the death of Mary Jane’s close friend, Harry Osborn. He did this on behalf of his Harry’s, father Norman.

I won’t recount the entire Harry Osborn Saga for you, but suffice it to say that Harry’s descent into madness was incredibly stressful for Mary Jane and Peter.

In spite of what Harry had become the couple were grief-stricken by his death.

MJ in particular was so affected by his death she requested Peter take a temporary break from hero work.

That same day Carnage began a killing spree alongside several other highly violent super villains. MJ’s grief over Harry coupled with the anxiety that Peter might meet a similar fate contributed to straining her and her marriage further, albeit briefly.

At the time Peter and MJ were living in an apartment owned by the Osborns. Following the Carnage crisis, Harry’s widow Liz Allan evicted the Parkers as a direct result of Harry’s death. Obviously this added to the Parkers’ distress.

In general Harry’s death left short and long-term wounds for MJ and people she loved and Mysterio was directly implicated in that. As he had done with Aunt May he had caused entirely unnecessary pain and grief out of pure selfishness, even if he was merely a ‘hired gun’ to that effect.

We never see MJ learn this information but given how one of her friends seemingly came back from the dead  it’s something she’d obviously want to know about and since she is so close to Peter and Harry it’s extremely unlikely they wouldn’t have told her.

I will admit that this example is a contentious one as it doesn’t really make sense for a loooooooot of reasons and the story doesn’t 100% confirm that Harry (and by extension Peter and anyone either of them might tell) knows  Mysterio was responsible.

So it could be argued that as far as Harry knows an unknown ‘someone’ covered his tracks (presumably his father) but he’s in the dark regarding Beck’s involvement.

However it is food for thought, yet another thing that would realistically cause MJ to hold Mysterio in lowly regard.

Duel with the Devil

Lets move away from Beck’s encounters with Spidey and towards those he had with Man Without Fear, Daredevil.

The first of these occurred in Daredevil #358, set shortly after the Onslaught crossover. In the wake of Onslaught’s attack and the presumed deaths of the Avengers and F4 Beck set up a fraudulent insurance scheme to con people out of their money.  That isn’t too relevant beyond it once again proving what an exploitative dickbag Mysterio is. More importantly though, it sets up his next encounter with DD.

I am of course referring to the ‘Guardian Devil’ story arc that ran through Daredevil volume 2 #1-8.

This arc is the absolute nadir of Mysterio’s ‘bad behaviour’.

Developing terminal illnesses and with just a year to live, Beck sought to go out with a bang. Initially he intended to make Spider-Man the centre of his plan but due to confusion (arising from Ben Reilly’s tenure as Spidey) he targeted Daredevil instead. Learning personal details about Daredevil’s life (including his secret identity) Beck built a plan designed to attack Matt Murdock’s sanity (evoking his scheme in ASM #24). In particular his plan hinged upon Murdock’s Catholic beliefs.

A key component of his plan was the abduction, drugging, artificial insemination and gas lighting of a Catholic teenager named Gwyneth.

Although her faith led Gwyneth to believe her pregnancy was divine in origin, she was understandably emotionally distraught after discovering herself pregnant and her pregnancy caused major strife with her parents. To ensure Gwyneth’s parents wouldn’t get the chance to investigate the matter, Beck hired some thugs to murder them. Witnessing her mother being beheaded  over the body  of her father Gwyneth fled with her baby, terrified as the thugs pursued her.

Out of desperation she was temporarily forced to sleep on the streets with her baby. It was at this point that Beck used his illusionary skills to trick her into seeing a ‘divine vision’ that led her to Matt Murdock. Passing her baby onto Matt she fled again hoping to lay low. However Mysterio’s men found and promptly murdered her. Her body was buried somewhere it wouldn’t be found.

Just to bottom line things so far, Mysterio knowingly:

Abducted

Drugged

Sexually assaulted

Orphaned

Traumatised

Hunted

Distressed

Manipulated

And murdered

A TEENAGED GIRL!

Just saying…

Anyway, there was more to Beck’s scheme than just Gwyneth.

He also murdered an innocent old man and for his fortune and impersonated him to enact the next part of his plan. This entailed slipping Murdock drugs that made him susceptible to Beck’s cover story. According to this story Gwyneth’s baby was in fact the literal anti-Christ and misfortune would befall Matt the longer he was around the child.

To help make his story more convincing Beck began targeting Matt’s loved ones.

He hired a drug-addicted actress named Lydia Mckenzie to seduce Matt’s best friend Foggy Nelson, who was already in a relationship. On Beck’s orders she also slipped Foggy a drug that caused him to perceive her as a demon and believe that he had pushed her out a window. In reality Beck ensured she died of an overdose, shoved her out the window himself and over all framed Foggy for murder.*

He also posed as a doctor and (I am dead serious right now) tricked Matt’s girlfriend Karen Page into believing she had AIDs. Remember this story was from the late 1990s so this was a BIG deal.

As a result of these machinations and the drug Beck slipped him, Daredevil genuinely tried to murder Gwyneth’s baby.

Mysterio later hired DD’s long-time nemesis (and known psychopathic assassin) Bullseye to abduct Lydia’s baby. He cared little about the inevitable collateral damage Bullseye caused in pursuit of his target. And by ‘collateral damage’ I mean the serious injuries to several people (including Matt’s mother, the nun Sister Margaret) and the murder of 11 people. Karen was among the casualties, traumatically dying in Matt’s arms.

Matt was so distraught over Karen’s death that he briefly contemplated suicide.

Angry and determined, Daredevil zeroed in on Beck’s hideout where Beck had a gauntlet prepared for him. One of the obstacles Murdock faced was an illusion of Karen stuck in Hell. Undoubtedly this was the single most spiteful and hurtful of the things Matt endured in Beck’s gauntlet.

When Daredevil and Mysterio finally come face to face, Beck revealed Gwyneth’s baby trapped in a soundproof chamber where the air was rapidly running out.

So…Mysterio is a-okay with seriously endangering and potentially murdering a baby.

…Again…Just saying…

Mysterio finally revealed his master plan to Daredevil, intending to push a broken Murdock into murdering him.

When DD refused Mysterio opted to emulate Kraven the Hunter and blow his own brains out; a fact that became public knowledge.**

Now sure, we the audience might be aware of all these awful things Beck did in ‘Guardian Devil’; but how much does MJ  know about them?

The potential answer is all of it.

The definite answer is more than enough of it.

Towards the start of Daredevil v2 #8 Peter is shown watching a news report about Mysterio’s death. The report acknowledges Mysterio committed suicide and that the bodies of his criminal crew had been found. It also refers to ‘a related story’, that of Foggy Nelson being freed from prison after being framed for Lydia’s death. This implies the news were aware Mysterio was implicated in Lydia’s death.

During this scene MJ is not only within earshot of most of the report, but she even consoles Peter that Mysterio was (in her own words) ‘a lunatic’. She acknowledges he was responsible for the deaths of ‘all those people’. She continues by saying Beck doesn’t deserve Peter’s ‘pity’ and that he should ‘not mourn for Mysterio’. She concludes by telling him to mourn someone ‘who deserves it’ instead.

Then they go to Karen Page’s funeral, which they were clearly preparing for during the news report.

Their attendance of the funeral and the scene leading into it heavily implies that Peter and MJ were aware that Mysterio’s was implicated in Karen’s murder.***

Later in the issue Spider-Man talks to Daredevil in order to fill in the blanks.

We do not know for sure if Spider-Man relayed any of this information to Mary Jane, but it’d be highly likely.

He typically confides in her and uses his conversations with her to process things. MJ herself often asks him to share if she sees something I bothering him.

In this case Peter would especially want to inform MJ of what happened and MJ would especially want to know.

This is because the incident entails one of Peter’s foes essentially manipulating and killing the lover of a fellow street level hero. In fact the only reason Daredevil was targeted at all was because Beck didn’t realise Peter was still around as the original Spider-Man. In other words Peter and MJ could very well have been in Matt and Karen’s shoes.

For the sake of future reference and general safety it’s totally unbelievable that Peter would not have told MJ about this at some point. After all, forewarned is forearmed and MJ has found herself targeted by people with powers of deception like Mysterio in the past, e.g. Venom and the Chameleon.****

I admit there is no hard proof that MJ knows all the details about Mysterio’s actions, but it’s rather unlikely that she wouldn’t if Peter did; it’s just common sense. Therefore we don’t need to see such a scene any more than we need to see the characters going to the bathroom or paying their taxes. It’s just such basic common sense we can presume it happened.

Even if you don’t think so, at the bear minimum Mary Jane definitely knows Mysterio is guilty of murder, accessory to murder (of someone in a similar relationship to herself), gas lighting and mental abuse. The result was that she personally regarded him as mentally unhinged and unworthy f sympathy.

If you only bear in mind ONE of the stories we’ve looked at so far, remember this one. In particular because the story is explicitly referenced in Amazing Mary Jane #1.

The 2000s: Rebirth of Berkhart

As far as those in charge of Marvel were concerned, Beck was genuinely dead and that was the status quo throughout the 2000s.

Nevertheless there are two very noteworthy events from MJ’s point of view that should be taken into account.

The first occurred in ASM v2 #7-8. In this story ‘Mysterio’ abducts the Parker family along with some of their friends and plugs them into a virtual reality machine because the Matrix was really popular back then. His intention was to deduce Spider-Man’s true identity by monitoring their interactions in the virtual world.

This virtual world happened to be shaped by the subconscious of Flash Thompson, meaning everyone was contorted to fit into his wish fulfilment fantasy. This included MJ’s friend Jill Stacy becoming a seemingly resurrected Gwen Stacy, MJ herself being gaga over Flash and wanting to marry him (the climax actually occurs at their wedding) and MJ’s husband being wheelchair bound.

Realistically the fantasy world (along with the realization they’d been abducted) would’ve obviously been upsetting for Mary Jane. Indeed it would’ve been upsetting for everyone else too (including fragile old Aunt May) even if it didn’t leave long-term scars. With no equivocation, this upset was directly ‘Mysterio’s’ fault.

I say Mysterio, but in actuality (and due to retcons) it was Beck’s ‘apprentice’ Danny Berkhart. However, Mary Jane couldn’t have known that (even the writers didn’t!), so from her point of view it would’ve seemed likely that Beck was responsible and merely faked his death once more during the ‘Guardian Devil’ arc.

Later during the ‘Mysterio Manifesto’ mini-series Spidey and Daredevil discovered the truth behind Berkhart’s scheme. This is tangentially important to bear in mind because of what we are going to look at next, namely Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man #12.

The specifics of this story aren’t all that relevant. All you need to know is that following Spidey publically unmasking Midtown High (where he worked as a science teacher) was besieged by three Mysterios. One was a new villain named Francis Klum, who had a vendetta against Spider-Man. Another was Berkhart who took issue with Klum’s claim to the Mysterio mantle. And the third was Beck himself, literally sent back from Hell.

After deducing an illusion of MJ as a fake Peter calls the genuine article to confirm her safety. During their conversation it’s revealed that MJ believes Mysterio to be dead.

First of all, this scene establishes that MJ was definitely aware Mysterio had targeted her husband (again!) and potentially endangered school children  in the process.

Second of all, from her point of view it’d seem likely that Beck would be behind this. I grant you that's a point that can be debated. However in her conversation with Peter he seems to imply to her that it is the original Mysterio.

Finally (and most importantly) MJ’s dialogue reveals that previously believed Beck was dead. Between ‘Guardian Devil’ and ‘Beck’s’ presence in ASM v2 #7-8 Mary Jane would have no reason to believe Beck hadn’t simply faked his death again. That is unless Peter told her otherwise.

Remember, Peter learned the truth in the ‘Mysterio Manifesto’ when MJ was believed dead, which occurred after  ASM v2 #8. This means that Peter must have informed her of this discovery after she was revealed as alive.

This is a point less about how bad of a person Beck is and more about proving that Peter keeps MJ abreast of noteworthy events in regards to his villains. Thus it is absolutely illogical to presume MJ wouldn’t similarly be in the know about most events Peter experiences pertaining to his villains; or at least the really noteworthy ones.

Let’s leave it there for now. Next time we will finish our coverage as we enter the 2010s.

*‘Fun’ fact. In addition to her close friend/ex-boyfriend Harry Osborn struggling with a drug addiction (which indirectly led to Gwen’s death) another of MJ’s friends was well acquainted with drugs.

Her name was Lorraine and she helped MJ learn the ropes when she was first getting into modelling. Unfortunately after overdosing in the Parker residence, MJ learned Lorraine had a major cocaine problem. MJ was so upset by this she asked Peter to sort out Lorraine’s dealer, only to be distraught when Lorraine simply went to someone worse and very nearly died as a result.

Lorraine survived and MJ was determined to help her through her problem.

Oh and MJ herself struggled for a little while to kick cigarettes.

All of which is to say Mary Jane is definitely going to take major issue with someone exploiting someone else’s drug addiction for their own ends. Which is exactly what Beck did with Lydia McKenzie.

Not to mention Lydia was someone in the exact same profession as Mary Jane, which might incline further ire from MJ.

**Remember this is not the first time Mysterio has been publically declared dead. It first occurred in ASM #141, which I discussed in the last instalment.

***Not to mention how it’d be common sense to ask how someone so young died if you are going to their funeral.

****And as food for thought she has literally armed herself with guns in the past. As such the idea she wouldn’t make a point of getting practical information for the sake of safety is highly unbelievable, even if she didn’t live in a city where super villains are commonplace.

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[traincat]

who are kaine and ben? i saw ben get referenced in a post about ripeter from spider verse and i know they're clones?? but idk anything about them.

Ben Reilly and Kaine Parker are both clones of Peter Parker. It’s a very long story, but to cut to the heart of it: when Peter and Gwen were in college, they had a professor named Miles Warren, also known as the Jackal. Warren became obsessed with Gwen, and after her death also discovered Spider-Man was Peter Parker. Using samples collected in their science class, he cloned multiple copies of both Gwen and Peter – two of those clones being Kaine and Ben. (Later it’s revealed Norman Osborn was directly involved in Warren’s cloning of Peter, but originally the story is presented as Warren cloning Peter as revenge for his part in Gwen’s death.) They’re the big two clones you need to know about when tackling Spider-Man comics: the perfect clone and the original clone.

(Web of Spider-Man #118)

Ben Reilly (who uses a combination of Uncle Ben’s first name and Aunt May’s maiden name) is a “perfect” copy of Peter Parker, possessing all of Peter’s powers and memories up until his cloning (the college years) both. Realizing he was the clone, Ben left New York and for five years lived a nomadic life. Spider-Man: The Lost Years is a miniseries that covers this and I highly recommend it.

Ben returns to New York when May falls ill and apparently dies (it’s a long story but considering this was the 90s and May is currently alive in Spider-Man, you can guess that she did not in fact actually die). At first operating as the Scarlet Spider, Ben later took up the Spider-Man mantle when test results were faked so it appeared that he was, in fact, the original Peter Parker and Peter the clone. Peter and Mary Jane, who was at the time pregnant, moved to Portland and Ben bleached his hair blond and began working as a barista at a local coffee shop while operating as Spider-Man. 

Ben later died in front of Peter, murdered by Norman Osborn the same night Norman had Mary Jane poisoned to kill her unborn baby. Upon his death, it was revealed that Ben had been the clone all along. He later returned as the new Jackal during the recent Clone Conspiracy storyline, and had a recent comics run in Ben Reilly: Scarlet Spider. 

Personality-wise, before his return as the Jackal/his most recent run, Ben is a lot like Peter. Despite a rocky start, Peter and Ben got along really well and referred to each other as brothers. Before Ben’s death they were discussing the possibility of them both acting as Spider-Man in conjunction.

(Spectacular Spider-Man #240)

When it comes to Ben, there are two costumes you should know: the Scarlet Spider costume and Ben’s variation of the Spider-Man costume. The Scarlet Spider costume is a red bodysuit with a blue sleeveless hoodie featuring the spider symbol layered over it:

(ASM #400)

Ben’s Spider-Man costume is very similar to Peter’s, but the spider is larger, extending across his chest and over his shoulders, and his gloves and boots are a different design:

(Spectacular Spider-Man #234) Ben very notably wears his webshooters on the outside of his costume in both his Scarlet Spider and Spider-Man identities, which is an easy way to quickly identify whether you’re looking at Peter Parker or Ben Reilly if you’re unsure.

RIPeter’s blond hair in Into the Spider-Verse was most likely a reference to Ben Reilly – it’s a pretty funny meta joke to introduce a Spider-Man whose big line is “there’s only one Spider-Man” when he’s visually based on Peter’s clone.

(Spider-Man Redemption #4)

Kaine Parker – known at first simply as “Kaine” – is the first living clone of Peter Parker Miles Warren created. Seemingly a success at first, Kaine suffered from clone degeneration, a condition that scarred him physically and mentally. When Warren became aware of this, he attempted to kill Kaine, causing Kaine to flee and hide.

(Peter Parker #61)

Kaine became obsessed with Peter, thinking that he was the successful clone when in reality that was Ben Reilly. Attempting to protect the life Kaine felt Peter as the clone should have, he hounded Ben Reilly relentlessly, attempting to keep him from New York and away from Peter and trying to destroy Ben’s own happiness. It gets kind of homoerotic, I’m not gonna lie.

(Peter Parker #61)

(Spider-Man Redemption #1 – highly recommended Kaine reading.)

“Our minds and hearts couldn’t help but vibrate around each other: I’d breathe in, he’d exhale. I’d grow feverish… he’d burn.” This is a lot even before Ben’s love interest, Janine, uses the exact same phrasing to describe her own relationship with Ben. (Based on the heavy parallels between Janine, who killed her father after years of sexual abuse, and Kaine, as well as Kaine’s later focus on and empathy toward young victims of sex trafficking and the Jackal’s own treatment of Kaine, I think there’s a very strong implication in the text that the Jackal sexually abused at least Kaine, if not both Kaine and Ben, but that’s a different post.)

During Ben’s five year exile, Kaine killed a woman named Louise Kennedy, who had briefly been his lover, in a complicated series of events spiraling out from his finding out she was a corrupt cop. Because the clones have the same fingerprints as Peter and because Peter had previously been arrested and fingerprinted, Peter was later arrested for the murder, though he was later exonerated. Kaine also killed Doctor Octopus, although Otto, of course, got better. 

Fast forward to more modern comics. Kaine sacrificed himself in Peter’s stead during the Grim Hunt storyline, when Kraven the Hunter’s family attempted to use Spider-Man to resurrect Kraven. Kaine later emerged from the grave further mutated, sporting multiple eyes and more spider-like features. The Jackal abducted him and further mutated him into a giant monster called Tarantula. During the Spider-Island event, he was knocked into a vat of spider-cure created by Anti-Venom and reemerged cured of both Tarantula and the clone degeneration.

(ASM #671)

Headlining in his own solo title, Scarlet Spider v2, Kaine took off with Peter’s stealth suit and, while he planned to cross the border into Mexico, ended up waylaid in Houston when he discovered a mysterious young girl named Aracely who had been left to die. Recognizing himself in her, Kaine and Aracely ended up staying in Houston, where Kaine operated as the Scarlet Spider, focusing his efforts when left to his own devices largely on human trafficking.

(Scarlet Spider v2 #12)

Kaine and Aracely later appeared as members of the new New Warriors team, before he died during the Spider-Verse event. He also got better. 

Before being cured of the clone degeneration, Kaine sported very long curly hair and was marked by the scars of his clone degeneration. He’s also taller than either Peter or Ben, likely due to mistakes in the cloning process. He possesses a power called “the mark of Kaine” which leaves burning hand prints on his victims. Before he was cured, he suffered from precognition in the form of violent flashes of the future, but after being cured, unlike either Peter or Ben, Kaine lacks a spider-sense:

(Scarlet Spider v2 #1)

However, unlike either Peter or Ben, he can talk to and control spiders:

(New Warriors (2014) #3)

Kaine is short-tempered and foul-mouthed, but despite his every intention otherwise, like Peter, he is ultimately beholden to his responsibilities. Because of his past, he’s extremely self-loathing, and often measures himself up against both Peter and Ben in terms of what a hero is supposed to be like. However, he’s deeply loyal to his found family, particularly Aracely, who shares something of a psychic bond with him.

(Scarlet Spider v2 #21) Kaine is also possessed by an otherworldly spider entity known as the Other, which can manifest as a gigantic human spider. 

And that’s what you need to know about the two main 616 Peter Parker clones!