#this feels like another bullet point for my 'is carmy autistic?' ever growing list

[aralisj]

You're gonna have to hear me out but I have been on the Schizophrenic Carmy hc since watching s1 and it has a fair amount of symptom overlap with autism. If that's anything.

Oh MY GOD!?

I just checked a couple of articles on symptoms of schizophrenia and I see what you mean.

Possibly inherited from his mother, feeling joyless, his emotionless delivery, difficulty communicating, his inability to take care of himself, insomnia, prone to addiction, "is that in my head"... I see it.

Also, the way the show is shot, with Mikey's voice, Carmy's nightmares and visual cues of stress taking over at times... That could definitely be read as auditory and visual hallucinations.

I'm still firmly with the possibly autistic headcanon, mainly because he is described as shy and "weird" even as a child and there's little discussion about him changing drastically during or after his teenage years, so we're assuming that he's always been this way, only maybe less depressed. There's also his need for structure and attention to detail - though, that could be explained with the comorbidity of OCD and schizophrenia, I've learnt.

All in all, an incredibly valid interpretation that I hadn't ever considered. Rest assured that I will be thinking about this for literal days. It's honestly fascinating stuff, thank you for sharing your headcanon with me - I love to discuss thoughts about this 💜

I keep track of Carmy's autistic coded moments in that tag, in case you're curious lol

[aralisj]

I find the scenes of Al-Anon so interesting because they give us a glimpse into Carmy's inner monologue and the ideas behind some of his fuck ups.

The problem is Carmy thinks in a very literal, black and white sort of way, so whatever "advice" (in quotation marks because people are there to share their experiences not to directly solve each other's problems) he gets from the meetings is taken to the extreme.

So someone shares that routine and consistency helped them get through their grief? Time to implement a French brigade, even if he knows it's an outdated system that creates a toxic environment. Someone at meeting says that it's necessary to remove yourself from toxic situations? He alienates himself from the rest of the staff when they're arguing (aka all the time) which isn't good or sustainable since he's supposed to be leading the kitchen. He hears that it's important to keep his side of the street clean? He overloads himself to the breaking point to keep the restaurant afloat because he doesn't know where his street ends.

For season 2, we get only one Al-Anon meeting but it's vital to understanding Carmy's arc and eventual, inevitable breakdown. So, summed up, he says that he feels like he's supposed to be having fun and he doesn't know how to do that. Cut to being in a relationship with Claire. Their scenes together are gentle and quiet, and the contrast with the rest of the rest of the show is so stark that a lot of people have disliked the whole concept and taken it out on Claire as a character. Here's the thing: this is just another example of Carmy taking things to an extreme - and the tone of the show reflects that.

Relationships should be fun and conflict free, right? So he keeps the worst parts of him and his job out of it (Claire does the same to a degree). This is also why he doesn't pick up when Sydney calls and he's with Claire, and why he doesn't respond to Claire while he's in the kitchen - his two worlds cannot mix. Ultimately, this leads to his finale meltdown speech, because his relationship with Claire never truly melded with the rest of his life and has become unsustainable. His priority is and probably will always be the restaurant. And even though Claire tried to be supportive, she was a reminder of the past that didn't let him move on from his grief.

The difference in this instance is that the season ends before he can atone, find a middle ground (like he did with the rest of the "advice") and make it work for him.

(I am aware this probably has more to do with the fact that the writers didn't hope to be picked up for a season 2, and so they gave us as much closure as possible for season 1. The success of season 1 gave them enough confidence to leave it open ended this time around)

[aralisj]

hi umm if you wouldn't mind......... would u drop the "carmy is autistic" list..... because you're so right he's so autistic-coded but i want to compare notes

You don't know the can of worms that you just opened. Know that I cracked my knuckles and kicked my feet excitedly when I got this ask and I would LOVE to hear your insights too.

This is pretty much the format I used for myself, so I do apologize if there's something wrong with it. Also, this is only my appreciation of it and autism is a spectrum, etc.

Difficulty socializing - Imitating forms of communication (sign for "sorry", cursing) - Unable to read when he's being rude (shitty) and need for external confirmation from Sydney - Uneasy in group gatherings (not joining the rest of the staff for family during his first weeks at The Beef), avoiding social events (never been to a party, misses family reunions) - Can be gregarious when masking/using costumes - specifically the scene with him pretending to be Logan at the party - "And [Mikey] had this amazing ability. He could just, he could walk into a room, and he could take the temperature of it instantly. You know, he could just, he could dial it. And, um… I'm not built like that, man. I, um… I didn't have a lot of friends growing up. I had a, a stutter when I was a kid. I was scared to speak half the time. And, uh, I got shitty grades 'cause I couldn't pay attention in school. I didn't get into college. I didn't have any girlfriends. I don't think I'm funny."

Problems with body language - Cannot read easily when he's being teased/mocked and when he isn't: - He gets really defensive when Mikey and Richie mention Claire even if they're being genuine and doesn't calm down until Stevie says so. - He doesn't realize Sydney is joking at first in the alley scene or her outright mocking him in the S3 trailer ("I can sense the sarcasm" "No, no, no. Not sarcasm, snark, contempt even.") - Asking Sydney constantly what's wrong - he listens intently which suggests that he cares but he genuinely can't pick up on what the problem is - Lack of eye contact, especially at the beginning, giving priority to looking at the food than whoever he's talking to. He seems more comfortable with looking at Syd and Richie in the eye than the rest.

Difficulty making friends and navigating relationships - No romantic relationships before Claire (we assume 🤷🏻‍♀️) - When Claire called him and told him that Fak said he was his best friend, Carmy took a second to process and then agreed. He genuinely has no idea. - The whole "a girl who is a friend" debacle

Stimming - Fiddling with his spoon, shaking hands and blinking hard - Arguably, also smoking

Routine -~Consistency~ - "And the routine of the kitchen was so… consistent and exacting and busy and hard and alive" - Wears almost the same outfit every day (white t-shirt, slacks, coat, apron) - Doesn't deal well with change

Special interests - Cooking, drawing, (vintage) fashion - he's really out there cooking in hundred dollar t-shirts and gifting Thom Browne chef whites - Creative and flourishing in his chosen field ("I felt like I could speak through the food, like I could communicate through creativity. And that kind of confidence, you know, like I was finally… I was good at something, that was so new, and that was so exciting") - Understanding the world and other people in terms of food

Abnormal sensory response - Cannot stand certain sounds (~ball breaker~) and doesn't mind others (alarm) - Possibly heightened sense of taste/smell?

From childhood and more notorious overtime - Described as weird and shy even as a child - Stutter - Bad at school

More notorious under stress - Meltdowns and lashing out (1x07, 2x10) - Gets overwhelmed when plans change - Shutdown/anxiety attack after sleeping with Claire

Not playing cooperatively - Individualistic and cutthroat in the kitchen - VERY task focused (when he’s cooking HE IS COOKING) - Territorial over his things (knife) - He has a hard time finding a managerial style that suits him, delegating, and motivating the staff

Detail oriented - Toothbrush cleaning - The bowl thing in S3 trailer - His ~everything~ tbh

Depression, anxiety and APD comorbidity - Having special interests/happy stimming/needs shut down at a young age resulting in a pessimistic mindset (waiting for the other shoe to drop), anxiety attacks and unhealthy attachment styles - His trauma plays a huge role in this too but autistic children are particularly prone to suffering abuse in silence/staying in toxic environments and relationships

Insomnia

Alexithymia - "I Googled fun." - "I guess all the time I feel like I'm kind of trapped because I can't… Describe how I'm feeling. So to ask someone else how they’re feeling, that seems, uh… I don’t know, insane?" - "I hate this feeling" "What feeling, Carm?" "Uh, I'm not sure."

Black and white thinking - Difficulty focusing on more than one thing at a time, a very clear example is the majority of S2 when he's trying to juggle a relationship with Claire with opening the restaurant, while actively compartimentalizing the two of them, ignoring Syd's calls while he's out, then Claire's when he's at the restaurant - At the beginning of S1, he's hanging onto the idea that there's only ONE way to properly run a restaurant - Whatever "advice" he gets from Al Anon meetings is taken to the extreme, causing most of his fuck ups of S1 (more on this) - In the same vein, my boy can't understand a metaphor to save his life

I'm keeping track of the list (more or less) here

[aralisj]

So I'm in the process of maybe getting an autism diagnosis and I just rewatched The Bear and I feel like Carmy is VERY autistic coded:

Likes routines (consistency)

Creative and flourishing in his chosen field

VERY task focused (when he's cooking HE IS COOKING - esp. at the kids party and the flashback scene with Michael)

Detail oriented (toothbrush cleaning)

Stimming (fiddles with spoons)

Cannot stand specific sounds (~ballbreaker~)

Plans in advance

Gets overwhelmed when plans suddenly change (esp. ep 7)

Very few friends, no romantic relationships

Special interest (cooking & vintage denim)

Has trouble expressing and identifying his own emotions/takes a long time to process them

Has trouble reading other people's emotions, understanding jokes, and doing small talk

Someone back me up or tell me if I'm just projecting my shit on him, please and thank youuuu 💜

[aralisj]

You are the first person I found that also sees autistic trades in Carmy.

Last year after the first season (I loved it so much! I watched it 3 times & some episodes even more often) I even came back to tumblr just for this series, I needed more content!

I saw so much of myself in Carmy, I never before saw a character so much like myself (although I'm a woman, from Europe & not good at anything at all).

All his struggles with other humans, it was like looking into a mirror, seeing myself.

So I got a psychological evaluation for my anxiety and other stuff. After some research I thought maybe I'm autistic. Getting officially diagnosed with borderline personality disorder and avoidant personality disorder with autistic traits. I still have the feeling I'm autistic and at the same time I feel like an imposter for feeling that way.

Carmy is such a people pleaser, so unaware of how other people see him, his bursts of anger, his fidgeting with the spoon, wearing the same kind of clothes, him not understanding other people except in regards to food. Him getting used and abused by other people (NY chef, his mother and brother, even Richie but with him the punches at least back & does not only take it, take it and take it). Other people have to point out that his relationship with Claire makes her most likely his girlfriend, that reminds me so much of myself when I had to ask my sister if my boyfriend had shown interest in me because I could not say for sure.

And maybe I'm just projecting, but for me it looks like he never looks other people into the eyes just with Sydney (yes I do ship them but I do not mean it like that) and Richie. Maybe it's just me but I do not like to look into the eyes of people I do not know at all/well, it's hard work to do. But it's easier with people I know for longer and I feel safe with. I still let my eyes wander to be able to concentrate better but it's easier to look directly into their eyes. At least I think I'm better with them. Or it's the camera angles fault XD.

In regards to friends, do you think all the connection he does have in the culinary world see him as a friend but he himself does not recognizes them as friendships. For example Luca?

Sorry this is kind of long and I'm rambling. A long text just to say yes I see it too. :)

I had a very similar experience with the show. I watched season 1 twice and I think I'm due for a rewatch quite soon.

During my first watch I didn't really see the autistic traits per se but I definitely related to him. Especially when he talks about routines and being good but completely burnt out at the same time - that was my experience at school.

I started looking into getting professionally diagnosed right about the time when I rewatched and I realized his experience echoed mine especially in the ASD related stuff. I made a post about it, and I believe it really resonated with some people within the autistic community, not just as a headcanon.

I feel you, I haven't gotten my official diagnosis because tests are very expensive. Plus, I'm a woman and I have been masking all my life, so it's hard to get a psychiatrist to believe that you are actually struggling. Maybe there's some overlap with avoidant personality because my psychiatrist has mentioned it a number of times, and it would make sense for Carmy to develop a disorder as a result of his family trauma.

And yes, a lot of his "quirks", the things that make him seem high strung and shy, could also be signs of ASD. I hadn't noticed that he's literally wearing the same clothes all the time but you're absolutely right. The Claire storyline really shows that he doesn't know how to navigate relationships and needs it spelled out by someone else (and honestly, same). He's concerned with being "shitty" but doesn't know when he's being perceived as that and so he asks Sydney to be his gage (my sister is mine)

I think you're right about the eyelines, and I guess it makes sense in the kitchen, since there's always something to do, you can talk with people without looking them in the eye, or taking breaks in between. I like talking while I'm walking or in the car, no eye contact 👌👌👌

You make a good point that he isn't particularly aware of who is his friend and who isn't. When Claire called him and told him that Fak said he was his best friend, Carmy took a second to process and then agreed. He has no idea. And I think that also plays a part in being used by other people - if he doesn't know what friendship or a healthy family relationship looks like, he's going to take it all like that's normal, which is not great

I do believe that Luca and Chef Terry would consider him a friend. They took in one of Carmy's staff, no questions asked, just believing in his judgement. Especially Chef Terry talks about him with a certain fondness that feels very sweet. With Luca, they probably had a more competitive, sort of brotherly thing going on but they ended in good enough terms? I don't know, I'm just guessing.

Thank you for such a thoughtful and generous message! I believed that I would get backlash when I first posted about my feelings on this subject but everyone has been very kind and supportive (not everyone agrees but no one has been rude and I count that as a win lol)

I hope you have better luck getting a diagnosis, and that you get to navigate this chaotic world as easily as possible 💜