#this episode was also such a good ep for beth because it parallels how she handles or DOESN'T handle the grooming her dad puts morty throug

[0rb0t]

ACTUALLY I HAVE MORE TO SAY on that Planetina episode. (Warnings for Rick Sympathizers, I go hard against him in this, even if I love him)

I noticed people were saying that they felt like the writers were more lenient on Planetina because she was a woman, but I don't actually believe that was the case.

The episode is extremely creepy but the thing is, we are seeing it from Morty's perspective. We have spent most of the series seeing stuff from Rick's perspective. This episode was uniquely NOT from Rick's perspective in either plot. It was Morty's or it was Summer's.

Planetina's creepy relationship with Morty was absolutely meant to parallel Rick and Morty's creepy relationship. The episode literally starts with Morty rejecting Rick to be with Planetina-- and not only rejecting Rick, but casting off "immaturity" in order to be with someone he idolizes but also wants to be mature for.

Yes it was mentioned that in the Toxic episode, Morty was with two older women, but you need to think about what that says about Morty at this point. His ideal Healthy was someone who was seen as mature, who wanted to be looked up to, who had confidence. Morty thinks that being a scared kid is toxic and that his ideal healthiness will be a man who has confidence and is mature and will have a mature woman with him. He's literally a middle school boy, this is not abnormal for middle schoolers, and it definitely gets worse when their needs aren't met.

Morty spends the entirety of the Planetina episode falling for this woman he admires, idolizes and thinks it's love, and Planetina takes advantage of that, both by having aspects of the "born sexy yesterday" trope but also because she's really kind to Morty and always says yes to him-- but let's examine that trope for a second here. In this case, Planetina is an adult woman who behaves in a childish manner that is appealing to Morty and makes her seem cute and he wants to do anything for her.

Hm. Rick is literally an adult who behaves in a childish manner that allows him to get on well with teenagers and kids but not so much fellow adults. Rick can also make Morty do almost anything for him, except he's not kind. His kindness is conditional.

TO MY BAD FAITH READERS: STOP RIGHT THERE CRIMINAL SCUM

I'm not saying here that anyone who is an adult that behaves childishly is automatically a predator. Rick and Planetina both are predatory towards Morty because they engage with him in highly inappropriate ways because he is a minor and they are adults. Boundaries are broken and reassured it's okay, there's a lot of "don't tell your parents about this" sometimes in actions and not words but Rick has LITERALLY said that out loud-- It's how you treat others that can make you predatory, and Planetina literally keeps encouraging this out of Morty, too.

In reality this episode is kind of an extension of the Toxic episode, because it shows that side of Morty that craves maturity because he can't connect to ANYONE around him, but also he wants so badly to be wanted, to be accepted, to be told he's good and perfect just the way he is. He wants to be loved so badly. So of course he latches onto the first woman who seems to be saying all those things to him because he HASN'T been taught how to avoid these creeps. And then when Beth finally starts stepping up as a mother for Morty, of course he sees this as betrayal-- because in his experience, his family has NEVER had his back. And the entire time, Jerry is playing a childish game where a little guy throws up everywhere LMAO Like, the writing and direction of this episode is so on point, it's Morty going "everyone around me is immature and they do not understand me and they don't want me to be happy" and Planetina takes advantage of that.

It really does not matter if she was genuine or not-- Morty is 14 and she is an adult who is going for the affections of a little boy HJSDFK LIKE. IF YOU FELT CREEPED OUT BY IT, IT'S BECAUSE IT'S CREEPY and it NEVER SHIED AWAY FROM IT. It just feels extra bad because we're getting it from Morty's perspective.

Morty finally puts his foot down when Planetina turns to outright murder--and she even tries to turn it around "You murdered my kids" EVEN THOUGH SHE BASICALLY TOLD HIM TO? She didn't use the words directly but she did tell Morty, KNOWING he was desperate for validation and love, that she was going to be taken away... Morty goes all out, arming himself to prevent that. As badass as this scene was, this entire episode really shows how middle schoolers (esp boys) are able to be groomed and radicalized by dangerous people they admire.

The original post said that the writers are lenient on women groomers but wouldn't act this way if it were men-- Morty likes girls, idk what to tell you. But also the EPISODE was from Morty's perspective. the Mr Jelly Bean episode was not-- it was horrifying but we were still generally from Rick's perspective. And as great as it was to see Rick kill that guy for trying to sexually assault Morty, Rick has not stepped up in a single way SINCE to help teach Morty how to protect himself, to safeguard himself from predators, etc. In fact, all he really aimed to do was make Morty more dependent on him.

I LOVE THESE CHARACTERS BUT I HAVE NO ISSUE SAYIN THIS SHIT CAUSE IT'S TRUE I'm glad Rick is trying NOW but the boundaries between them have long since eroded. Morty is used to being treated like this, and Rick is used to being able to get away with it.

That's why Evil Morty's finale was so poignant-- "I'm not evil, I'm just sick of him" Literally every single time Morty has pushed away from Rick, we get this perspective that Morty is bad and is being mean to Rick. HECK NO-- Morty is showing agency and trying to protect himself.

This episode is no different, he literally DOES break up with Planetina, and she (despite causing all of these situations and having the power in the relationship) blames Morty and acts like he did this to hurt her and leaves. And Morty wails openly into his mom's embrace, because Beth is there to comfort her son who is BROKEN over it.

And then these parallels are LITERALLY MET in the pre-finale episode where Rick is like I DONT NEED YOU MORTY I CAN REPLACE YOU WITH TWO CROWS--

The Planetina episode is MEANT to be watched with the finale episodes.

I don't think it's fair to blame the writers for something that they were really REALLY smart about writing in these episodes. To say that the writers didn't make it blatant is... frankly untrue... This show does not work as well when they have to look at the camera and go "THING BAD" because the entire show has had Rick grooming Morty into becoming exactly like him and that ends up being more acceptable to a lot of people because a lot of people are biased towards Rick.

And I understand the pull! I love Rick Sanchez! He's very relatable! But he's also quite literally a "do not be me" type of warning character LMAO He's a cautionary tale, at all times.

This show is entertainment first, it's not meant to be watched as education, its primary focus is to tell stories. If you learn something from it, GREAT! But the most bad faith interpretations because you're uncomfortable about how something is shown isn't actually conducive to anyone's learning.

Next time you feel uncomfortable while watching Rick and Morty, ask yourself why, and be prepared that those feelings of discomfort MAY BE MIRRORED IN ASPECTS OF RICK AND HIS GRANDSON'S PORTRAYAL. This is how I learned to stop believing anything Rick had to say about Jerry, because it's usually projection.

[twdmusicboxmystery]

Emily’s Second Appearance on TTD This Season

Okay, I've been saying that I would talk about Emily's appearance on TTD last Sunday. Not really any massive TD smoking guns that we can point to, but I am side, eyeing a few things.

Of course, we hoped we might actually see Beth in ep 16 and perhaps that's why Emily was on TTD, but that was not the case. It doesn't change the fact, though, that this is the second time in a single season she's appeared there. I'm going to show you that a lot of the questions she was asked seemed to be trying to remind us of Beth in some way. So, I still think that she was purposely put on to remind us of Beth and Beth’s arcs.

I'll just go over the questions that she was asked directly, and the suspicious things she said.

The first question they asked her was which sibling pair in the show reminded her of Beth and Maggie. She said it was Max and Mercer because they have very different mentalities and very different approaches to things. Yet, they always have each other's backs.

I was thinking that Eugene and Max are parallels to Beth and Daryl. But really, because of symbols I’ve pointed out, so are Mercer and Princess. So, it’s interesting that she chose them as her answer.

The next question was more suspicious. Chris asked her what she thought of the different romances that are blooming and show right now. By that, he meant Max/Eugene and Princess/Mercer. Again, perhaps it seems to be an innocuous question, but it’s very interesting to me. They asked her and only her about the relationships. Emily basically just said she thought it was great and, "I always love a good romance." Hmmm. A hint for the future, perhaps?

Then they also asked her if Beth would be surprised at Daryl being a parent. Again, I have to laugh at this and just sort of side-eye it. I suppose it makes sense to ask her, since neither of the other two actor’s characters were around when Beth was on. But it's not like everybody doesn’t know who Daryl is. I mean, he basically became a parent back in S9/10 to Lydia. So why haven't they asked this before, or of any other guest?

Emily replied that she thought yes, Beth would be surprised, because when Beth knew him, he was such a loner. He's had a lot of growth and now has a family and is actually responsible for other people, including children. So again, I feel like this is a foreshadow of the future. They not only wanted to remind us of Beth and Daryl's relationship and where Daryl was with his character back in S4, but I'm kind of thinking we’ll actually get to see Beth be surprised at Daryl's current role in Rick's family.

They also asked her what she would want to see in the Maggie/Negan spinoff. She didn't have a particular answer for this, but just said that she wasn't sure, and she wanted to know how Maggie and Negan would end up going off together. I think that's a question most of the fandom has. If we’re abiding by the same theme of them foreshadowing things or suggesting things, this is them very much entangling her with the Maggie/Negan spinoff.

They asked her why she thought Lance offered Leah a job. Emily said there was really known better than Leah in Lance’s mind because she is so hell bent on revenge and she thought Lance would recruit Leah into his army.

Then Chris asked for her reaction to Zeke starting a secret hospital. Emily basically just said that it was great and fun and really noble. The reason this one jumped out at me is because of the hospital setting. Even though there's not a lot that’s TD about this question, and Emily's answer wasn't terribly suspicious, I felt like the purposely asked her question with the word ‘hospital’ in it.

Like, “Emily…hospital?”

They’ve been doing throwbacks to earlier TTD episodes, which means they just show clips from past years on the show. For last night’s, they used an episode that Josh McDermitt (Eugene) and Stephen Yeun (Glenn) were on from S4/2014. If I really wanted to go deep, I might say both of those (Glenn and Eugene) are both proxies Beth, but we will go there. Mostly I was just suspicious that they did a throwback to S4.

Low key head canon: Norman is on TTD next week. Here's hoping they do a throwback to the TTD after Still that he and Emily were on.

The other reason the throwback is kind of suspicious is that in it, the guest from the crowd asked what each character’s apocalypse catchphrase would be. It was funny it to watch the actors try to come up with things. But then once they had shown the throwback scene, Chris asked Emily, Paolo Lazzaro, and Ian Anthony Dale what their catchphrases would be.

So, this is what seems very contrived to me. Not in a bad way; just in a planned way. It's obvious they knew this question was coming because they all had catchphrases ready to go. They were very character specific and very fun. But you can see that if this question was specifically asked, then that throwback scene was purposely used so they could ask it.

Emily said that she used Finding Nemo as an inspiration (ocean theme; fish theme; someone who's lost and must be found again and reunite with their family) and instead of, "keep on swimming,” which is in Finding Nemo, she said, "keep on singing."

Yes, it's a classic Beth line. So, once again, it's probably not suspicious to most of the fandom. But…doesn't saying that as her catchphrase suggested Beth did keep on singing?  👀

In the next question she was asked as if she would be willing to steal information for Eugene, as he asked Max to do. Emily said, "Yes. For the greater good." She then went on to say she wished that they could all just find some peace and not have trouble for a while. But now we have her being associated with stealing secret information from a bigger organization to help TF. (Something we kind of already think Beth will do with the CRM in order to help TF.) And then she said, "for the greater good." Which is a Grady theme.

Finally, they asked her for her reaction to Leah going after Maggie (what they showed in the sneak peek for ep 16). Emily said that's exactly what she thought Lance was going to do, but that Maggie is tough and will put up a major fight. And when asked who would win between Maggie and Leah, she said, “Maggie, hands down.”

So again, I think that she was put in this episode to remind us of Beth in many ways and perhaps foreshadow what will happen with Beth when she returns to the show.

Anyone notice anything I missed?

[sour-n-salty-citrus]

Do you have any hopes for the season finale? I saw in another ask, you described the dynamic between rick and morty this season as "very weak, distant, and downright frankly boring" and I completely agree with you! I hope that, because this is most we'll see rick and morty interacting this season, it'll have at least a few moments of what makes their dynamic so interesting to watch.

(Ok i started airing my grievances with this season, which ended up being... long, so skip this paragraph (starting at / / /) to get to my thoughts on the finale)

Oh gosh I remember that ask (I think-). And yeah, maybe I'm being a bit overly critical. I'll probably look back on this season with retrospect, and a kinder, fonder view. Ik androgynousblackbox (think thats right) made a great point about it being the season FOR rickorty shippers. And sure, I agree on some bits, like Rick acting all pissy and partying the way you would if your ex got with someone new in the planetina ep. Overall though, i think my problem lies in that I was enjoying more individual moments than episodes themselves, especially the middle three. For example- Amortycan Grickfitti. Like, I really liked the idea of the Ship getting on a crazy adventure with Summer and Morty (and Chutback). I like the idea of a Beth-Jerry-Rick adventure. But put together, it's just kinda... meh? You know? I liked the first half of the Thanksgiving special... but it kinda dragged on after that. I get that they want to give other characters (particularly female ones) more attention, which is completely understandable and i encourage it(!) but I can't help but find it underwhelming. Like, Summer in the voltron ep was like- girl how are you STILL vying for Rick's attention! He's the worst! Haven't we done this already? (I will say though I ADORE how far Beth has come, props to her for continuing to seeing through her dad's BS. I was worried the character would relapse into a more typical s1/s2 Beth, and I'm glad she didn't). Some of these plots, funnily enough, seem more fitting of the comics (they actually had a voltron parody already). Fun and entertaining for two or three-something issues, not so much a 22 minute episode. i think most of my complaints come from the dynamic between our titular characters- ok, I know I'm very biased (I mean you can see it), but I came to the show primarily for their relationship. It doesn't even feel drama-fueled, just that they kinda... can't be arsed. I'm torn because on the one hand, they're unhealthily codependent and this separation is probably a good thing, but on the other... it doesn't feel natural? I'm not sure if that's the right word- it's like, season 4 had them practically joint at the hip, but all that's suddenly flung out the window. It just kinda feels like this "i got better things to do" vibe from both of them and its strange. The only time they both got a solo adventure (I'm classifying "solo" as an adventure where they spent a significantly large portion of time together, without the other family members) was in the sperm ep and Thanksgiving ep. And, well, in the Thanksgiving ep Morty felt like a side character in his own show, and the sperm ep... um. Yeah. I don't think it's AS bad as people were saying, but I was cringing the whole time (the second hand embarrassment for Morty was so strong I had to turn off the episode multiple times and return to it. It's just like- godammit MORTY). And I think there's good reason those two seemed to be the most disliked episodes overall. They're the ones RaM spend the most time together and it's... meh. Meh? Meh. I don't mean to say the season overall is bad (it has loads of good points, and its amazing for Smith family as a whole) just that if we're talking specifically about the dynamic between these two? Yeah, I wouldn't recommend a single episode from this season so far to use as an example of their relationship.

/ / /

There's one thing this season has been pretty good at, though. And it's showing us what happens when Rick is alone.

And that brings me to the finale.

"Who is Rick without Morty?"

Well... we already know the answer to that. Pathetic. Sad. Lonely.

This season has been phenomenal in humbling Rick. (And trust me I'm happy for it- every time someone beats the crap outta this shitty old man I'm like YES!!! IT'S WHAT HE DESERVES!). Ep 1 had his "nemesis" clearly besting him, ep 2 had Beth making constant digs (love her) and overall pointing out his extreme callousness and cruelty towards even himself(ves). Ep 3- when Morty shows interest in a girl and ditches him (like seriously it's not like he's moving out, chill) he immediately goes on a bender and develops a deep attachment to the first person he can (wearing yellow, funnily enough). Ep 4, he devotes himself to becoming an "honest man" for his new child, only for it to instantly be taken away from him. Ep 5 highlights how RICK is the asshole for making fun of and taking advantage of someone well-meaning and honest, if "simple", and how literally not cool that is. Ep 6 has his crazy rivalry with the president, and they both get smacked down a couple pegs for that. Ep 7 shows what happens when he allows himself to get carried away, and that he can end up driving everyone else away in the process (lucky they still wanted to save his ass when he needed them). And episode 8? Hooooo boy. Episode. 8. We see a direct parallel in Birdperson with Morty, and the whole "Rick and [insert] 100 years!" Rick has few people he cares about, arguably only one or two that he truly devotes himself to, but when he does, boy does he go HARD. We see younger Rick, optimistic, energetic, friendly and hopeful. And we see all of that crushed in minutes. Rick is desperate for a companion, someone to see the stars with. He needs someone there, someone he can trust and rely on to stay. Someone like Morty. So without Morty, who is Rick?

No one.

And the thing is, Morty doesn't need Rick anymore. Not like Rick needs him. In season 1, Morty was this bright-eyed kid who was new to the cosmos and the multiverse, who needed his grandpa there with him as they explored all these places together. But that's not him anymore. That's not them.

The promo has Morty using the portal gun to go somewhere w/o Rick's permission (i like to think it's boob world lol). It doesn't matter to me as much where he's going, as much as he's doing it alone. He doesn't just not need Rick there, he doesn't want him.

(Also correct me if im wrong but I've missed that sweet portal gun so much. I think the last ep was like- the first time this season we saw it).

Morty's response to Rick? "Replace me!". And wow. Wow. WOW. Morty doesn't give a FUCK! I think Rick thinks that because he's so smart, that he can offer so much, that Morty will come crawling back, and I don't think he will.

Hopes for the finale! Hmm. I mean, I definitely hope "evil" Morty makes a reappearance, haha. I think we all do tbh ;). I want to see some Morty development too, this season has been very Rick-centric (not that there's anything wrong with that!) so I wanna see what's in store for Our Boy. I really hope we get to see the Citadel again, and see the state it's in, but I doubt it. We know something super big is in store, it's just a question of what? Other hopes I have is some Summer + Beth action (please let them team up Im BEGGING) and Jerry too ahaha. I'd love if some other side characters made an appearance as well. Oh- I'm definitely expecting a dramatic cliffhanger at the end of the first half leading to the second half, with the kind of angsty music that leads into the credits (pls that shit is so good (OH WAIT imagine if it was like, for the damaged coda, but like- the chopin version or smth so it could be more subtle maybe bruhhhh)). Ok haha, maybe that's asking too much, the writers made it clear in the story train ep that they weren't gonna do that big dramatic showdown (... unless 👀). Oh, I'd also love some Premium Angst too, like someone getting kidnapped/nearly dying (like ACTUALLY nearly dying). These stakes better be so damn high I could spear a man on them! OH, also I remember androgynousblackbox (is that right? I hope it is) mentioned something along the lines that they could be driving Rick and Morty apart this season in order to have them come back together stronger than ever in an explosive finale, which, I'm strongly hoping for myself.

Thanks if you made it this far! If you have any thoughts on or hopes of your own for the finale please feel free to share! :D

[poc-movie-supremacy]

Ella’s thought’s opinions, but mainly Stargirl

I posted like three fics today, and I’m like tempted to post all of them. Just wants to clean out my drafts. Another day.

Anyways for stargirl, because yeah

I don’t know, it’s a small thing, but when Beth and Barbara first interacted she, barbara, was a little put off by how much Beth could talk and now look at them! They’re teaming up and having each other’s back then baking cookies together! Idk it’s really cute.

I like the parallels of Rick catching Beth then Yolanda catching Courtney

also Rick and Yolanda really earned the nickname murder twins didn’t they?

Pat and Courtney and Pat and Barbara were adorable. They are now a family! It was spoken, on the show! 

Whatever happened to Beth’s parents? I’m lowkey sad that that part of the show wasn’t explored. Like two eps Beth centric about that part of her life. 

Good for Cindy for killing her dad. I’m happy for her. But I’m also insanely worried because she gets Eclipso and apparently he kills beth and yolanda in the comics and I don’t want that. 

What’s going to happen to cameron mahkent now? I mean he doesn’t know shit and then suddenly he hears that a 12 year old ran over his father??? Wild.

The only complaint I have for the finale is that there weren’t more hournite scenes, but otherwise I absolutely adored this finale. Usually finales for me are uninteresting/not my favourite episode,  but then stargirl happened. Damn. 

Rip Chuck. Someone give Beth a hug. He really was one of if not the first friend Beth had and now he’s dead. Tragic. 

Also Rick was very soft in this episode. It was honest to god adorable. Him being happy for Beth and having Yolanda’s back? Him smiling?! Rick Tyler and his girls. :)

I’ll miss sir Justin. He was a cool dude. 

I am also disappointed Rick didn’t get to go all murdery on Icicle for harming Beth, but also the harming wasn’t severe? Idk I still feel robbed.

also I’m now worried for pat and barbara with sylvester in the picture now. Season 2 is going to be wild, and I hope they get more episodes. 

[ikkleosu]

What do you think now in terms of Caryl actually happening? Seems to be looking a WHOLE lot better now!!

I have several asks basically asking the same thing so forgive for just lumping it all together in this answer. Also forgive me, for I am about to ramble.

Let me say that i am so so so certain Caryl is happening.

Now unlike some folks (with music box in their name) I FREELY admit that despite the fact I am ALWAYS RIGHT, sometimes I have been totally wrong.

I was totally sure Caryl was happening in season 5, and I was totally sure it was happening in the run up so season 8. Obviously I was wrong on both counts.

The rest of the time I was mostly speculating how it could happen if they were to do it at that point.

Now I have always (well since season 5) believe Caryl would happen eventually. Even when I stopped watching in s8/9 I still believed it would happen eventually. But by then I thought Carzekiel was a real, genuine ship, and Caryl would only happen as a last ditch attempt to save ratings - 3 show runners down the line!

And then the spoilers for 8x16 came out and my ears pricked up. Carol was leaving Zeke, and Daryl was implicated in the divorce! (LOL) Suddenly things got really interesting, but I still wasn't sure Caryl was on the cards in the immediate future.

Once the movie was announced I was fairly settled that Caryl would only happen in the movie, as a ratings grabber (because as much as I love Andrew Licoln, he isn't enough to sell a movie. Walking Dead fans who have walked away would expect a TWD movie to have Rick and Michonne and Daryl and Carol. They just would).

Now up until about a month or so ago I STILL believed that (and part of me does still think actual canon might only happen on the big screen). But what has changed in the last few weeks is that I am certain THIS SEASON is setting up Caryl - either to fully go canon in this season, or to NEARLY go canon, then go canon in the movie.

(By nearly go canon, I mean Daryl and Carol's feelings for each other are made explicit. There are on screen conversations about their feelings. Their reasons for not being together will be detailed, and they will have shippus interuptus a la the Consumed bed moment that stops them from taking the last step)

My mind being changed has happened bit by bit, and a large part of it has been thanks to Norman "threesome with Beth and Carol" Reedus! I KNOW?!

Suddenly his answers on Caryl were mature and interesting. Talking about the complicated nature of their relationship and waxing about aspects of Caryl. Like, who is he?

My assumption was Norman suddenly didn't just get media training. He could answer differently because he knew differently. He had something different to say because something different was happening.

And platonic relationships are rarely "complicated".

A huge part is the quotes I put in my "join the dots" post. The fact that Angela said this season would deal with Daryl's love life, and said she has asked Norman his opinion on how it would go. Then Norman said they have had talks, then explicitly said he has had talks with Angel's and some things he suggested went into ep 1, then he confirmed it was things in the Caryl scenes.

To me, that is definitive proof that the relationship he and AK were talking about was Caryl.

And let me divert and explain here why I got it wrong in the past...

It took me like 6 years to realise that Scott Gimple puts stuff into the show that seems significant but isn't AT ALL. He plants scenes and symbolism and Easter Eggs that amount to fuck all. They are pointless, meaningless stuff he puts in for his seeming own amusement. If he's asked about it, he will say yes I will say that will come up again BUT IT NEVER WILL!

From the jasper stone to Daryl's therapy book to Daryl's sudden deep relationship with every red shirt going - all of it was meaningless drivel. Hey remember the dead bodies with signs on them? Remember the weird deserted camps? Remember the Cherokee walkers? Remember the clocks and flowers and tomatoes and beer bottles and the colour green? MEANINGLESS!

I spent so many hours dissecting and analysing, connecting stories that seemed to fit brilliantly together. And I tend to think I was giving it more thought than Gimple was.

I thought Caryl would happen because things like the water jug flirtation and Consumed and the Dwight parallels and the Cherokee rose on the wall and... you get the point. But none of them meant anything other than Gimple thinking he was clever and throwing carylers random bones to keep us going. Which, to his credit, worked largely.

But I believe Angela Kang. Angela "I wrote Still, the worst written episode ever" Kang is not like that. Doesnt work like, and knows exactly what she's doing.

I dont say that lightly. It is only looking back at s9 with hindsight do I see what she was doing.

She had Carol repeatedly reject Ezekiel's proposal; she had Daryl have a conversation with Aaron about what a good father Daryl would be; she had Carol and Daryl show their connection and Carol show she wanted space from Ezekiel in a scene she wrote notes on saying Daryl was jealous of Zeke; she had Carol change her mind about Zeke only after she saw Daryl lose and go punch happy, whilst Zeke is a caring father to Henry. She made sure Carol never said "I love you" to Zeke on screen. She showed that while Daryl goes into the wild, Carol always knows where he us and lies to her husband to go visit him. She showed that Carol felt that Zeke had enough influence on Henry, and now she wanted Daryl to be the male influence on his life, in an episode filled with romance tropes and a morning after scene that was clearly meant to emulate a morning after scene. And then AK played her first hand - when Henry dies, it is Daryl who Carol seeks. And Zeke sees Daryl as a direct and present danger to his marriage and threatens him off. And then Carol leaves Zeke, and goes back to ASZ with Daryl.

I mean, holy crap! She set it all up so subtly that so many people didn't see it coming. And I still believe there are other parts of s9 that are set up to come into play this season.

And then with each spoiler I began to get more faith. Ep 1 was so much better than I expected, with Daryl taking Carol on a date, making a bracelet (something else I was wrong on. I totally thought that was wishful thinking), and not only being comfortable with the idea of running away together, but when he realised he couldn't do that, telling Carol HE NEEDS HER!

Again this is new ground, Daryl hasn't talked like that.

And then, after all that came the dream spoiler. I loved it, it seemed big, but the people leaking it played it down to ridiculous levels.

They made it seem like it was a throwaway scene, a Gimple-esque nod to the shippers. But as I have said, what actually happened was HUGE. This scene is the entire point of the Carol taking speed pills story (in this ep). It is telling us WHY she is afraid to sleep.

And it confirmed every single thing. The dialogue in the extended version confirms it is a good dream. The ring takes away ANY ambiguity (unless you are a desperate ABCer who has decided to pretend it's Ezekiel's ring, when it visibly, clearly isn't) that Daryl is just a roommate. And the fact the dream is 80/20 Daryl to Henry, shows this dream issue is NOT just about her missing Henry. If it was , the dream could have just featured Henry, or Henry and Zeke. It didn't. It heavily featured Daryl as Carol's dream husband, then followed it up by a scene showing us how utterly she loves and needs him.

I always believed in eventual canon. After Ghosts, I believe canon is on the cards very soon. And that we just saw on screen confirmation that Carol is IN LOVE with Daryl.

Put a fork in me I'm done.

[daughterofluthien]

Rules: Pick 5 shows, then answer the following questions. Don’t cheat. Tag some people.

Tagged by @brambleberrycottage! Thank you!!

(a note: these are not necessarily my fave shows or anything, but they are the shows that are more on my mind than others :P)

Teen Wolf

Star Wars Rebels

Stargate: SG-1

Leverage

Parks & Recreation

Who is your favorite character in 2? Kanan Jarrus. He has a fantastic character arc, he’s a wonderful mentor and space dad, and he’s probably my fave Jedi (and character) in all of Star Wars. Sorry about it, Obi Wan 

Who is your least favorite character in 1? I mean, I don’t tend to focus on least favorite characters too often. However, I do generally have a vague desire to punch Theo in the face anytime he’s onscreen.... He’s slightly better in 6B with the (incredibly rushed) redemption arc and all that, but like. Also.

What is your favorite episode of 4? Oh man, that’s a really difficult question for this show, actually. But for sheer creativity and memorability, I’d probably say “The Rashomon Job.” That was one of the ones that really stuck in my from when I first watched the show, and it ended up being just as good as I remembered.

What is your favorite season of 5? Hmmm I wanna say either S3 or S5. The harvest festival arc in 3 is great, but all the Leslie/Ben stuff in S5? Beautiful and iconic.

Who is your favorite couple in 3? I was a Jack/Sam shipper way back in the day, and that honestly hasn’t changed.

Who is your favorite couple in 2? Kanan/Hera! They’re just... !!! They care about each other! They’re supportive! They just love each other so much and I have so many feelings

What is your favorite episode of 1? “Frayed” Like !!! The entirety of 3A up to this point has been building up to the idea of Scott being/becoming an Alpha, and, like, throughout the season we see him do little Alpha things -- being a leader, pretty much everything about his relationship w/ Isaac, etc. And then!! Then!! This is the episode where he actually starts to realize it! And where he actively chooses the leadership role!

And I’m sorry, I’m not done talking about this episode yet, because I honestly just have so many feelings?? And it’s got this one moment. One moment in particular. Which may be one of my favorite moments in the entire series. Like the whole set up is really good (it’s also one of the few TW eps where anachronic order actually worked), and there’s this whole moment in the middle where Scott and Isaac have to calm Boyd down and keep him from attacking Ethan, as Boyd thinks the Alpha Pack killed Derek. And then, at the end of the episode, Isaac (who did not get upset about Derek in the same way Boyd did) learns that Scott isn’t healing from the wound he got fighting the Alphas, and he just. Absolutely freaks out and attacks Ethan.

(The show directly parallels Boyd’s reaction about Derek to Isaac’s reaction about Scott, and !!!)

BUT THEN. Then Scott comes out. And he roars.

And it’s not technically a roar, but he yells Isaac’s name and it has power behind it. And everyone (including Boyd) notices.

But Isaac!! Isaac stops! He responds as if it was a roar! And I’m!! Gonna go!! Absolutely!! Feral!!!

Ahem.

Anywho that’s my fave episode of TW, and I really love my Alpha son

What is your favorite episode of 5? Oh man, I don’t actually remember a lot of specific favorite episodes, even though I know there’s a lot of eps that I really like... I’m thinking “Flu Season”? But also that’s just one among many very good episodes.

What is your favorite season of 2? I’m gonna say S4, actually. I thought the show had a really strong ending, and I love the final arcs of all the characters.

How long have you watched 1? So I started watching in... 2012 or 2013 I think? And then watched off and on through at least part of S4. Then I started a rewatch here in the year of our Lord 2020 and uh. Here we are :P

How did you become interested in 3? This was actually one of the first fandoms that tiny!Carolyn was ever involved in! My mom discovered it back in like... 2003 or something, decided it was not inappropriate for her barely nine-year-old daughter, and from then on we were both pretty much hooked. 

Who is your favorite actor in 4? Mmm frick, do I have to pick? Probably either Christian Kane or Aldis Hodge. But also Beth Riesgraf is fantastic, too, the whole show is just so delightful. 

Which do you prefer, 1, 2, or 5? Okay okay okay. So. Rebels is definitely the tighter written and better show, imo, but also I’m having a ton of Teen Wolf feelings right now and I just care so much about this characters. So like, currently and tentatively, Teen Wolf? (Sorry P&R, I love you, but straight sitcoms are probably never going to be my pick, even though it is really good)

Which show have you seen more episodes of - 1 or 3? So like, this is really just a contest of how many episodes each show has, right? Since I can’t imagine picking a show for a game like this if I hadn’t seen all the eps? Anywho, seeing as Teen Wolf has 100 episodes and SG-1 has 213 episodes, I think SG-1 is the clear winner here.

If you could be anyone from 4, who would you be? So like, I wanna say Amy Palavi, the waitress in their Brewpub in S5? She doesn’t have a terribly intense life or tragic backstory, but she also gets to befriend and hang out with Parker -- along with some mild involvement in shenanigans -- so that seems ideal, honestly.

(And yes, I know she gets kidnapped in that one ep, but that works out all right in the end, so I’m still down.)

Would a crossover between 3 and 4 work? Weirdly, absolutely yes. I’ve actually read a few that were pretty good.

In fact, according to Word of God, Leverage and Stargate actually take place in the same universe? Apparently there were going to be a flashback gag with Eliot going through the gate as part of one of his many past jobs, but they weren’t able to do it, due to the sets already have been dismantled.

Pair two characters in 1 who would make an unlikely but strangely okay couple? Huh, oh man. I’m not usually much of rarepair person tbh. And like this is literally something I’m pulling out of absolutely nowhere and haven’t actually thought about before now. But maybe Sydney/Hayden? or Sydney/Lori?

Overall, which show has the better storyline, 3 or 5? Y’know, I was gonna go with Stargate with this one, but actually the big storyarcs were never my favorite part of SG-1. Whereas P&R actually had some really good and emotionally compelling arcs. So I’m actually gonna go with Parks & Rec with this one.

Which has better theme music, 2 or 4? Neither of them really have much theme music to speak of, but if we’re just talking about music, then Rebels is the clear winner here. Like seriously, props to Kevin Kiner et al., it has some seriously fantastic musical cues. Heck, the score for the finale got nominated for an emmy.

Tagging @whitecatgraycatblackcat, @experimentaldata, and @darnitjack! Also, as always, feel free to do this if you feel so inclined, and please tag me and let me know!

[challengerblue]

i was tagged by @shawgroves​ (thank you!)

rules: pick 5 shows, then answer the following questions. don’t cheat. tag some people.

dare me

person of interest

daybreak

the office

warehouse 13

who is your favorite character in 2?

sameen shaw always!! a survivor & a hero even when everyone said she wasn’t capable of it. outlived everyone who tried to fuck w/ her. wears the hell out of a tank top

who is your least favorite character in 1?

kurtz die in prison challenge. fuck everyone who let this dude near teenage girls

what is your favorite episode of 4?

“beach games” or “stress relief” probably? tho the jim/pam weddding ep gets me tearing up

what is your favorite season of 5?

season 3 as a whole, but season 2 had some gr8 eps. i.e. the hg eps.

who is your favorite couple in 3?

wesley/turbo was wonderful. sam/mona could’ve developed so well,,, fuck netflix for that cancellation, i was robbed

who is your favorite couple in 2?

root & shaw always!! the best couples are the ones where both characters are complex & terrifying in their own right. tbqh. also reese/carter was really soft & every scene they had together choked me out

what is your favorite episode of 1?

“parallel trenches” because it was so interesting & well-made, showing the same day from 3 different perspectives, and the different colouration between the 3. but also “fog of war” really fed the beth/addy goblin in me

what is your favorite episode of 5?

“reset” is probably the one i’ve re-watched the most, if not just for the hg/myka of it all. that scene where myka’s trying to talk her down from destroying the world, and holds the barrel of that gun to her head? fuck dude

what is your favorite season of 2?

season 3, there’s not a single ep of this season that i didn’t like, unlike the rest. so good

how long have you watched 1?

since it started airing in december

how did you become interested in 3?

netflix does that annoying thing where it auto-starts the ad without being asked. was on their home page, & it actually looked decent. so. i started. & then couldn’t stop for 2 days

who is your favorite actor in 4?

not really interested in actors... john krasinski maybe? he was good in “a quiet place” too lol. or rashida jones

which do you prefer, 1, 2, or 5?

currently dare me, but poi is that one show i always turn back to when i lose interest in other stuff

which show have you seen more episodes of, 1 or 3?

both have 10 eps

if you could be anyone from 4, who would you be?

god none of them, i’d rather die than work in sales. maybe oscar lol

would a crossover between 3 and 4 work?

the cast of the office would all be dead/zombified in daybreak, and the cast of daybreak are too young to work in an office. so. whoomp.

pair two characters in 1 who would make an unlikely but strangely okay couple?

riri and michael could be cute? he’d treat her right

overall, which show has the better storyline, 3 or 5?

daybreak has a more interesting concept to me personally. but w13 was probably a little more original than teen post-apocalyptic dystopia

which has better theme music, 2 or 4?

lol poi definitely. for this song alone in “if-then-else” (x)

tagging (if you’re interested!): @addysbeth, @yennciri, @asleepinawell, @beth-cassidy, @florencespughs, @maplecroft

[kaz3313]

001 BATIM 003 Summer - rnm (I don't often see you talk about her lol)

Thank you for the ask! It’s 

OOOOOOOOoooo Summer!

You are right I do not talk about her nearly enough, even though she’s somewhere in my top 5 favs (top 3 counting only characters from the show)! Also I’m kinda talking about comic book Summer and show Summer (s)

So, as I stated up top, love her but when I started watching the show I didn’t like her too much (she was okay but I thought she was going to be flat stereotypical teen girl)But that was beginning season 1 (which she was a side character) and then Season 2 came along and I said “Hell yeah, she cool” and I started really loving her as a character! Wasteland Summer was also cool to see and I was sad to see her frozen with not much more exploration on her character.

Hmmm as much as I ship and love to do so…I really don’t with Summer. The one universe in the comics where she’s a lesbian I totally support and I low key ship the crackship with the car. Other then that though I think she’s doing well on her own. I personally don’t ship her with Ethan since based on what’s seen not really compatible (of course when did I care compatibility-Eh I just don’t see enough substance for em). I’ve seen a few arts with her and Jessica which is cute but not really my taste either.

Now to non romantic relationship-

Well I feel like her and Rick get along well in the end, whether that’s good or bad I’m not sure, but I really enjoy her relationship with Beth? Like at first it sucked, it really really sucked. But I feel as though it got progressively better (especially the end episode where they’re shopping and doing daughter mom things). I hope to see the relationship in the next season and even her to grow a stronger bond with her dad as well (since that ones been shaky too. Honestly she doesn’t have stable relationships with anyone platonic and romantic which Is sad)

Unpopular opinion…

Hmm a lot of people show her as badass (which I love me some good ol fighten Sum Sum) But some people, when doing so, make her exactly like Rick. Now I’m not disagreeing she has some parallels to him (she definitely does especially showcased in season 3) but I think people need to remember she IS a different person. She CAN be a genius and strong and whatever but she will approach situations with her own twist! I also see (in fics mostly) them blow Summer off completely or make her stereotypical teen (doesn’t talk to anyone about anything ever, always grochy, and if does appear in said fic is just on her phone) which is an interpretation that I don’t care for.

Hmm, again explore more her relationship with her family (asside from Rick since I think that has been showcased in Season 2 and 3 a lot). Maybe even her teen/school life since she doesn’t blow off school as much as Morty does.

Fav friendship, hands down her and Morty. I feel like, at times, the top can work really well together (although not always- but that’s the complication with relations thier not always perfect). I also hope in future eps she makes some cool alien friends or something. I think that would be fun!

Crossover ship? Ehhhhh? Her and Wendy from Gravity Falls? I saw it once (or twice?) in fic/art and they seem pretty decent together. They would make a nice couple and also I think they’d also be pretty good friends! Yeah badass red heads unite!

BATIM!!!! Oooooooo boy! Also I’ll be doing lil more descriptions for the characters then RnM one since your less familiar with these characters 😊

Fav character, that is tricky. Staying strictly to canon game Wally (pure janitor boy) or Bertrum (local narssarsist finds someone who’s got an even bigger ego and now thier partners or AKA the octopus ride). I like Wally because throughout the whole game he’s got tapes and they’re always nice and cheerful which is a nice lil break (or poik(perk) as he’d say) from the horror and darkness. Also the whole probable he’s Perfect Boris just makes him better (I love Boris). And Bertrum; well for one he’s an annoying cool mini boss, I like that both him and Joey had big egos but he had one AND he seemed like a decent guy, cool design in general, and he’s got his motavations figured out Joey gipped him and now Joey’s gotta pay. As for everyone’s interpretation and also my personal hc? All of them! Even that bastard Joey!

No least fav’s. Some times I don’t like certain people’s interpretation of a character but I really like them all. If I had to pick one I’d say Allison since I felt in cannon she was a bit bland. But really in cannon we didn’t have much to go off of many of the characters.

Fav ships (in no particular order btw and one more then said but whatever)

Henry X Joey (like how can you not ship the protagonist and antagonist? Doesn’t every fandom do that? But honestly why else would you come back to mean bosses’ studio after 30 years if you two hadn’t dated or at least had a lil but more then a friendship. Also angst train woot woo). 

 Sammy X Suzie (ahhhh. I love em so much I just hsjaownjw. And it’s almost cannon and SO MUCH ANGST POSSIBLE HEHEHHE) 

 Tom X Alison (cannon but very cute). 

 Wally X Shawn (bring me the pure boys! Honestly this ship is kinda ‘random’ but also is a lil popular and has a toooonnnn if cute HC’s.). 

Ink Sammy X Projectionist Norman  (I love inky angsty boys!)

Lacie X female OC ( I love when she has a noice girlfriend)

Who do I find attractive: hmmm not really anyone (in game)Like Inky Sammy buff so I guess him.

Who I’d marry: ghanakjsjsks??? Idk! No one?

Best Friend: preink-Wally, no questions. Postink- Boris (so still Wally) because I’d just hide in the safe house and play cards.

Random thought:

Unpopular Opinion: Sammy, Henry, And Joey are all around same age and they grew up together. Idk if it’s unpopular but I’ve seen a lot of times Sammy is younger then the other two.

Cannon OTP: Samsie isn’t cannon? Maybe? it’s definitely alluded to but the only thing cannon cannon is Thomas X Allison so I guess by default them. 

Non Cannon: Wally X Shawn please and thank you

Badass character: based on cannon,Bertrum? Like I said he’s a heck of boss fight. Maybe Henry cause he’s had to dealt with everyone’s crap. Projectionist because he literally fist fights the ink demon. Based on personal hc Lacie.

Epic Villian: Idk if he counts as epic but Sammy was an interesting villian. I feel like he should’ve been explored more (so does the rest of the fandom) but I feel like straight up trying to sacrifice

Pairing I’m not a fan of: I used to not like Sammy X Wally but now I think it’s kinda cute. Maybe Wally X Norman just HC they have a more father son bond but I’ve seen some stories where it’s not the case sooo, it really does depend on people’s personal story. I also don’t care for Alice X Bendy (but some content of them is cute and I still enjoy some of it).

Character I feel like they screwed up: Sammy they didn’t do to much with even though he had a lot of potential. Same with Allison and Thomas who were kinda just bland especially Allison.

Character I identify with: when hc I project a lot on Wally but i don’t identify with anyone imparticular.

Character I wish I could be: I’m going to take this as if I could be one of the toons (and not in game toons, since I’d be trapped and I’d rather not) Boris. Who wouldn’t want to be a wolf who just eats all day. Or Edgar (spider boy) because he’s so cute!

[wolfwhiteflowers]

Daryl’s journey + Caryl Speculations

So I read some posts about Daryl and some other stuff and it got me all thinky! Here’s my thoughts and opinions. (after ep 7)

*twd spoilers *twd major character death spoiler *twd comic spoilers vvvvvkeep readingvvvv

 I’m not really a big Daryl fan but I think the online fandom hate is too extreme and unfair. I think the hate just part of what it is when a character is popular, writer’s fave, etc. Just saying that Idk much of his character as well as others do.

So I read this Post and it got me thinking of Daryl’s journey in TWD series (like I kinda wrote this post about on Carol’s journey. here) I realized that Daryl and Carol are kinda going on this similar path in a way for a long time. They both kept losing a kid or a person. Since rn, it’s Gimple’s show, I think this...journey Daryl is on, started in s4 and kinda ending in s8 on what I’m suspecting ..with Caryl.  I don’t know what’s his character agency or his “thing” in the TWD story exactly. He’s a fighter, childhood abused survivor, brother. There’s also this other thing of learning to be loved and be included in the family while also losing someone. It’s like Daryl’s agency or his arc, started when he couldn’t find Sophia. But, I think of s1 and that he’s missing Merle and can’t find Merle too. So, when Gimple became showrunner in s4, it’s like Gimple wanted Daryl on this journey, similar to Carol’,s where Daryl keeps losing someone and learning about family love and all that. I’m not sure. (It’s easier I guess with Carol’s because it’s obvious she’s following parts of comic-Michonne’s. We got comic book material to look at.) So, that’s what it seems like..Daryl loses someone each season and family bond be tested or learned. Merle(1), Sophia(2), Merle again(3), Carol (4), Beth(4&5), Denise(6), Glenn(7), and now on to s8..... 

fandom hate/the blame- Yeah so based on the spoilers and how the majority fandom reacting, they think Daryl is to be blamed for the Saviors getting out and will attack in ASZ. The fandom thinks Daryl is to be blamed for Carl’s death. First of all, that’s what the fandom thinks. There’s also Tara and Morgan to think about too, because they were part of this rogue plan. We don’t know what the writers will do yet. We don’t know if any character will blame on Daryl (and Tara & Morgan & Eugene). We don’t know if Daryl will feel any guilt on Carl’s death that his plan made it that happen. He could feel that his plan, and what Eugene did, was all an “accident” ..it was gonna happen anyway, kind of thing(writers).

 It’s like ...a hater could be harsh on character when it doesn’t have to be. Like when Aaron left his pictures, and led the Wolves into ASZ. So, we blame Aaron? It doesn’t matter though, Aaron tried his best to help TF. It wasn’t Daryl’s intentions to kill Carl and anyone else from TF. 

 However, if the writers want Daryl to be blamed, by like Rick, then I think it’s something else the writers have in plan for Daryl and his journey. Evil-Daryl?  Rickyl could go separate ways and they make up. But I don’t think whatever tv drama will come for Daryl is not based on Carl’s death.

s8 speculations- All this ‘fandom hate’ reminds me of Carol and the death of Karen & David(s4), and Rick banishing her and how the fandom freaked out and that Carol had a different arc and Carick made up. (idk im used to having unpopular opinions)  So, it reminded me of the banishment and some fans did too. Rick may banish Daryl or something, and it could lead to Daryl living with Carol in the Kingdom. Or, Daryl (and Carol? and Tara?) leave TF and do the comic-Michonne’s pirate-arc during the time jump. I guess I’m saying maybe Daryl’s plot is leading to something else and more.

Comics spec.- Although, someone did mention something and I think there might be some Rickyl angst and them drifting apart throughout the season. They already are actually, with Daryl’s kill-rage and wanting to kill all Saviors in s8A. (Nothing about Carl’s death.) Rick seems like he doesn’t want to kill all Saviors or he would want prisoners of war. Daryl wouldn’t.

So, based on the comics and spoilers, comic/tv-Rick let Negan live and put him in the jail cell (that Morgan built). If Daryl is still on this kill-rage or like others who just want Negan to die(there are others-like comic-Maggie, comic-Carl etc), Daryl could drift even more apart from Rick. Like, Carl’s death, the blaming, and Negan living, it doesn’t matter which way, Rickyl are gonna be having a hard time. I don’t see Daryl being open-minded about Negan’s living. Idk..unless there’s some good reason and good writing to show that to Daryl. Idk like Daryl forgiving Eugene and Dwight? So..so far I think Daryl is not gonna like what Rick will do in s8/finale.  

 Now Idk what will happen with Daryl in the future. Writers can do something original or they based him off an arc to some comic-characters.

- In s7, I think there were parallels and contrast between Dwight and Daryl in s7 which both of them are kinda basing on comic-Dwight. Switching vests, motorcycle, crossbows, right-hand man. I also think there were some parallel/contrasts to Dwight&Sherry and Caryl. So, I’m wondering what it means and where it’s leading to. I’m also wondering if that parallel/contrast thing still going on in s8? Carol did come back in ASZ in 8x01 unlike Sherry. Dwight switched sides and helping Rick, and ... Daryl is not following Rick’s plan. Idk, maybe that parallel/contrast thing isn’t happening in s8A but s8B. It’s something that I always wonder about between Dwight and Daryl, and the future storylines.

-The “pirate-arc” or “Rickyl drifting apart” theories could mean that Daryl is away from Rick and ASZ, where Negan is imprisoned, and Daryl lives in the Kingdom with Carol and raises Henry. I really like this theory and it seems possible. But who knows what will happen. The crazy thing about Henry is that it kinda wraps up Carol and Daryl’s arcs of them losing someone. Henry will be the kid that evolves Caryl to what they wanted to be and wanted to do. Be a mother again, feel complete that someone is found and protected. Also it’s crazy that Henry is Sophia’s brother in real life. Idk if that is where the writes are heading toward to that but it’s a cool idea. I also don’t know if Henry will be another kid to focus on (like Carol & Morgan with Benjamin, Beth, Sam..Lizzie&Mika) There are already so many kids who had been focused on and died. Henry could be just in couple episodes and that’s it. Or, Henry is the kid that will live a long time. 

-So, I mentioned that I think Rickyl will drift apart. I don’t think it will last forever. I like that I mentioned that Daryl character-thing is him being a brother. So, I think there will be some Rickyl arc ..and something about them being brothers. They will work it out because they’re brothers. 

[musefulstranger]

5x09 review-One Fettered Slave

I can’t believe we’ve come to this point.

One episode before the final epilogue and it feels so surreal-i can’t even begin to imagine  how it must’ve been for the people that have sticked to this show for 4 years.

Ep 9 was what i imagined it to be: quick paced, action packed and extremely emotional.

I was scared about the analogy between the Helena moments and the general mythology arc cause they had to show a lot of things- especially after Siobhan’s death- but they balanced it well.

let’s analyze the different thematics:

The Funeral

Siobhan’s funeral  started with Sarah speaking . In an episode that is focused on another character i think the writers did a good choice not showing Sarah’s vulnerability.

She’s suddenly the pillar of the family and eveyone is expecting directions from her. She has to be the strong one there’s no other way. Her grief and feelings are not her priority right now  so she won’t break down. Not in front of Kira, not in front of everyone.

Sarah’s grown so much.This moment says it all

what am i supposed to do?

she can’t afford losing her child as well. She’s the reason she’s keeping it together after all. So she stays with her and comforts her. Something Ms S had done all those years when Sarah was absent.

I also adored the symbolism of her wearing her mother’s jacket.

Sarah taking responsibility, lifting the weights of this family

also congrats for letting Tatiana without make up in her  portrayal of Sarah (or rather the “no make up” makeup ya know) cause it made her emotional chaos more humane… her eyes said it all..

also about her breaking down- i believe we’re gonna see her grieve the way she’s supposed to after everything is finally over. Last episode is Sarah centric so it totally fits to have her moment in the epilogue.

What i didn’t like from the funeral scene was the singing at the beginning, which i found anticlimactic..it would be much better if we could just hear Sara and Felix speaking with no other sound in the background..

Also the fact that 4 days after S’s death they could walk and talk in a house that is a murder scene was totally unrealistic..Police had to be all over the place investigating and all…

Unless Art handled the situation in a way..but still a plot hole is a plot hole

Team working together

Cosima,Felix, Art, Hellwizard, Scott, Rachel ok what a pleasant suprise to see everyone working together. I loved the fact that supporting actors got the chance to actually help the ledas and be useful. Each one helped in their own field.

Cosima helped with the Dyad information and Scotty-Hell with the security system (even if it was kinda weak to hack the security system with such convienience-i’m bypassing that lol)

Even Rachel helped!! Rachel!!! My only complaint was Alison’s minimum participation in this but i get that given the circumstances her involvement  would be extremely difficult

Should i talk about Art??

Cause everything

screams

SACRIFICE

and all this time i ‘ve been crazy rambling about how his chances of surving are veeeery  low…. ep 9 built his exodus cause the final episode will be Leda/Sarah Centric…so be prepared guys…

i get Ebro’s schedule..i trully do..and i was fine with Sardinia..i was fine with Geneva as well cause there was a reason behind it plotwise but we’ve come to the point where there isn’t even an explanation about this…

they didn’t clarify the reason she left… cause it doesn’t make sense when Siobhan’s funeral was 4 days after the gallery party…there wasn’t a reason good enough to justify her absence that’s why the writers didn’t give one…they prefered to let the fans decide which reason was good enough…let’s be real though that was sloppy..and as much as i love orphan black i’m gonna point out  it’s weakening points as well.

Coady+ Mark

So Mark died absolutely clueless…his death matched Ira’s death, both manipulated by their creators, hoping for a cure that never existed in the first place.Too bad that there wasn’t any building up to bring tension and to make us care about those characters… so this scene felt kinda flat at least for me…i believe the reason behind this was cause ob writers didn’t want to make Coady a grey character…. well i for once celebrated her death after this scene

wait it is confirmed that Coady is dead right? I mean Helena beat the shit out of her so it would be  impossible to zombie out ?? or should i be worried??

PT + Rachel!Sarah

oh god PT without his wig is like a bulb with ears lmao

anyway so i loved these 2 together…this is the first time Sarah meets John am i right?

also congrats to the props team and the level of detail they use in each scene…i liked that Sarah didn’t wear the same patch Rachel wears…

a++ to the dialogue about PT perving out on Rachel because in that way Sarah put herself on Rachel’s shoes and actually saw for the first time how they were monitoring her sister and what actually means complete lack of privacy…

also both Susan and PT seem to have a perplexed image as to what a father/mother figure looks like

you don’t fuck your ‘son’/ or watch you ‘daughter’ masturbate and then call them “son/daughter” lol

but it gave me pleasure that Rachel never actually called PT “father” and that’s how Sarah got exposed..

the moment she cut him with the knife i was like “yaaaas finish him lol”

HELENA

FLASHBACKS

omg??

don’t get me wrong the kid was very good/ super talented and all

but how could they do this???

i mean it was SO.FUCKING.OBVIOUS that this isn’t the face of a leda clone you couldn’t concentrate on anything else!

at least i couldn’t! Especially when 2 episodes before they used canonically Cynthia!

i mean

??????

it defies logic?? there’s no excuse??

they could have dubbed the ukranian parts i don’t care if little Cynthia couldn’t play that good that was so wrong in so many levels… it had the “Spongebob takes a bath in the sea” logic lol

and it was really such a shame cause the flashbacks were so amazing..

first of all i loved the whole “pleasures of the flesh are unacceptable in a religious environment” thematic cause it adresses real social issues like the austerity and fake puritanism of social institutions.

the reason behind Helena’s bleached hair was a nice touch even though little Helena should also have some  burn marks after this…we got to know why she has those pink shades under her eyes as well so that was good..

as far as to why her hair is still blonde after all this time…well i choose to patch this plot hole by believing that Helena did this to herself again and again..she bleached/dyed them as a sign of punishment, self harm  and guilt cause that was the way she was raised- a mouthpiece and killing machine of others..

the art department did a brilliant job with the dollhouse and the correlation between Helena’s fixation with dolls back in her Rachel assassination attempt

Tomas took her and hide her the fact  that she’s a copy..she grew up in the illusion that she was special..that she was the original..in fact Rachel and Helena fantasized about the same thing and it is so fascinating to see how they are 2 different sides of the same coin…

Most Heartbreaking moment

Oh god this moment…

what kind of mother could you possibly make?

jesus Tatiana each time you give more and more, i haven’t seen an actor as committed and devoted as you are, you deserve all the praise girl woah

Coady found Helena’s weakness and it is not how she smells, looks or talks…it’s about her capacity of giving a future more bright and beautiful to her children than the one her younger self  had to endure…

and at the end of the day she’s willing to take the bait..  it’s either freedom or death…exactly like Rachel..there’s no middle ground..she won’t leave her children become experiments so that’s why i find super important that we finally get a Rachel Helena scene…there’s a high probability Rachel won’t make it in the finale so at least lets have a last glorious scene with the 3 of them as they try to escape…or so i hope…

THE TWINS

YEEEEEESSSSS

all this crazy rambling about this being a Sarah-Helena season finally came true! Everything came full circle and this moment was SO important like you guys don’t understand…

Sarah finally made up for Helena..she gave her her blood to keep her alive…she put each and everyone of her friends and family searching for her, she made her a priority- drowning her grief -cause she couldn’t lose another one..especially Helena.

And now she will help her give birth..she will be there for her, protect her, give her life even..even tho after the obspoilers fiasco my theory now is that Art is gonna save Sarah…because it is super symbolic .. it would be his second chance and his redemption after losing Beth.. now he’s gonna do it right. Idk it is so foreshadowing… i wonder what Rachel’s role is gonna be..i sure hope she’s the one that’s gonna kill PT but who knows at this point.

Ep 9 set the mood for a very powerful ob series finale..Helena’s inner world was raw and pure and it’s going to  parallel  Sarah’s  final  gut-wrenching episode.The twins are going to set the epilogue and i trully hope their journey will be as magical and  satisfying as this show was  for all of us.

[twdmusicboxmystery]

How Scars MIGHT Relate to Leah and Daryl

Okay Everyone, this is a post that I wrote like 6-7 months ago. It was after we learned about Leah and 10x18, but before the episode actually aired. It was really just conjecture on my part. Me, trying to connect patterns and similarities I was seeing.

Why didn’t I post it back then? Because we decided we thought Leah was a hallucination, and at that point, I thought this less likely to pan out.

What I’ll say now is that, if she IS real, this may still be true. And if she isn’t, this pattern may hold but it might be about some other character, other than her. 

Even if it turns out to be completely untrue, just see this as patterns I’m seeing that may come into play in the future. And I wanted to post this today, before ep 1 airs and ep 2 shows up on AMC+.

Also, someone sent me this yesterday:

Norman saying there’s some double agent stuff going on DOES suggest she might be a villain. It’s hard to interpret exactly what he meant by that, but this is one possibility. So here’s what I wrote to my fellow theorists several months back:

Here’s what I have to say about Scars, and I’m still grappling for how best to frame this, so I’m sorry if it meanders a bit. And honestly, it’s nothing super ground-breaking. It’s a lot of what we’ve already talked about concerning Leah, and it comes from what you found about the “masks” lines in the Michonne/Zeke convo, as well as between Daryl and Michonne in Scars. I’m really just giving more evidence for this and predicting a future storyline. You know, like I do. ;D

And one thing I will say is that, while I WANT to tie this to Leah because both her storyline and Jocelyn’s happened during the 6 year time jump, I’m not 100% sure this even has to do with Leah. It might, but it also might not. So, I think this is a coming storyline one way or the other. But it may have to do with Leah or may be completely independent of her. No way to tell, yet.

So, in both conversations (both between Michonne and Zeke and Michonne and Daryl on the swings) they talk about people wearing figurative masks. Daryl specifically talks about someone who has so much evil in their hearts that they actually lie about who they are and present themselves in one way, as one type of person, when really they’re the opposite. 

We see this theme played out all through Scars, because obviously Jocelyn did that. But now that I’m alert to it, I’m seeing it a lot. Even in 10x17, the Sniper fell under this theme. Mostly literally in his case because he was wearing camouflage (a kind of mask) to hide out and kill people. But figuratively, that’s kinda what Jocelyn did, too.

Okay, so let me start at the beginning. I’ve watched Scars twice now and I’m thinking more and more that the thing with Jocelyn happened BEFORE Leah. Now that we know Daryl’s story spans 5 of the 6 years, I think Leah must happen after Jocelyn. Michonne is big and pregnant, so Scars can’t be more than 6 mos after Rick disappeared. 

Michonne asking Daryl if he’s okay being alone definitely hints at the Leah storyline (another reason to link Leah and Jocelyn). But I think it’s a jumping off point for his story. Because he tells Michonne he’s okay being alone, and in that moment, I think he really is. Or at least he really believes he is. The story with Leah will be him realizing he really doesn’t want to be alone. Romantically or otherwise. Which pushes him back toward TF when Carol comes knocking with Henry.

But let’s get to the good stuff.

After Jocelyn shows up, she tells Michonne that some of her kids aren’t with her and she wants to go get them. Jocelyn is hurt and Michonne’s about to pop, so neither of them go. But this is interesting. The three people who go to get her kids in the one building are Gabriel, Aaron, and Eugene.

It was Eugene that really caught my eye. I started going, “hmm. What could this foreshadow?” And I don’t know the answer in detail, but I think it may foreshadow his entanglement with Beth’s return in some way. And of course Aaron and Gabe are both major proxies for Beth, with Gabe being the resident Sirius character. So yeah, kind of side-eyeing that.

The next thing is that we see two hand-drawn posters detailing, through pictures, how to skin and drain both a deer and a rabbit. These are things Jocelyn has obviously made to teach the kids to survive. And I know we noticed them before, with the deer and rabbit being big Beth symbols. But I’m seeing a much bigger theme, having watched the episode several times.

The poster of the deer shows the deer strung up by its legs (head pointed down, I assume). Then, after they bring all the kids to Alexandria, we see several deer strung up this way, and Michonne comments that Jocelyn’s kids are amazing hunters. So, we learn that two of them, Winnie, the blond, and Linus, one of the boys, killed the deer and even prepared them for everyone at Alexandria.

But here’s where it gets more interesting. When Jocelyn captures Daryl and Michonne, she strings them up over pipes in exactly the way the deer being slaughtered are strung up. And of course she brands them like animals. So, in a way, they’re meant to be the deer that she’s going to slaughter.

And I’m not even sure exactly what to make of that where the deer symbol is concerned. I thought about how killing the deer does keep people from the danger of starving to death, so it fits with Deer = Tractor = getting rid of the threat, as I discussed HERE. But I also wonder if deer is synonymous with captivity in some way.

Then there’s the rabbit. I have less to say about it except that the biggest place we saw rabbits were around Lizzie and Mica. And the poster specifically lays out how to kill a rabbit, which is what Lizzie did to Mica. And I think it works here because we’re dealing with evil kids. Like Lizzie. (I will have more to say about the rabbit theory next week. We’ll see them in a big way in 11x01.)

This is where I’m going to link it to the good twin vs evil twin theme. Remember I talked about this with Noah’s twin brothers and of course Lizzie and Mica, even though they aren’t twins. I don’t think we have to have twins or even siblings for this theme, though it’s common for them to do it with siblings like Lizzie/Mica and even Daryl/Merle. Back in S4, there was Pete and his brother as well.

It occurred to me that we have a representation of it here, with Michonne/Judith on one side and Jocelyn/Winnie on the other. Sorry to go racial, but even the ethnicities match up. Michonne, a black woman with a Caucasian daughter (Judith) who isn’t biologically hers (good). And Jocelyn, a black woman with a Caucasian daughter (Winnie) who isn’t biologically hers (evil). See what I mean?

One scene that really jumps out at me is when Michonne and Jocelyn talk in the kitchen. Jocelyn goes out of her way to REALLY earn Michonne’s trust in that scene. Michonne even says, “I’m so glad you’re here,” so she’s obviously fully trusting and loving having her friend around. This is the biggest place where we see Jocelyn’s “mask.”

Then, when Michonne and Daryl are on the swings, Michonne says, “she was a friend. Like, a real one.” She talks about how they’d been through a lot together before, like heartbreak, losing parents, etc. And then she says, “I wanted it to be that way again. I believed her. I let my guard down. I should have known. Should have sensed something.”

Okay, so many ways I could go with that. First of all, it’s REALLY close to what Carol said about Lizzie. “I should have seen it. It was already there.” So, another link to Lizzie/Mica.

But I was also thinking that I can see Daryl thinking this about Leah. Like, he wanted to believe that she would stay with him, that he could love her, but it was all just a mask.

Okay, that may feel like it came out of left field, but it’s essentially where I’m going with this. Let me keep going and I’ll circle back.

When Scars first aired, I said I thought Jocelyn was an anti-Beth parallel. I don’t think many people agreed with me, but I believe that more than ever. And @wdway​’s X/Chevron stuff actually backs it up. My biggest reasoning, originally, was just all the child/baby stuff around Beth. I can see her doing something similar to this—raising an army of mini-Daryls—but of course she would be good and raise them with good values. Jocelyn will be a foil to her.

Watching it again, there are SO many Beth symbols around this Jocelyn story. There’s the deer and rabbit, which I’ve mentioned. At one point, Gabriel is telling a story to all of Jocelyn’s kids, and he covers one of his eyes, showcasing only his Sirius eye. We have Eugene going to find the kids. And of course, the X-shaped brands in Michonne and Daryl’s backs, which is where the Chevron stuff comes in.

So, one way or the other, I feel like this is a foreshadow of something to do with Beth and/or her return.

Then, at the end, I paid close attention to what Michonne says to Judith, and I picked up on a few things that had never registered for me before. Remember that, in this episode, they juxtapose these Jocelyn flashbacks with Daryl coming to Alexandria with Lydia and Henry, and Michonne doesn’t want them to stay, but Judith does, etc. And at the end, Judith takes off on her bicycle and Michonne has to go find her.

So, at the end, they’re sitting on the rock together and Michonne is telling Judith about the Jocelyn situation. She says that when Judith came out of the trailer, it “was like you were looking right at me and didn’t know it was me. I thought you’d changed, or that I’d lost you.” (Emphasis mine.)

Think about that. It’s a really odd thing to say about a two- or three-year-old kid. Like she thought Judith had turned evil or something. And I think plot-wise, she means that she thought Judith would think differently of her because she’d just killed all these kids. Michonne had a lot of guilt about that. But it’s a really odd wording, and kind of hearkens back to the mask symbol. People wearing masks, appearing to be something they aren’t.

We’ve also discussed extensively the idea of Beth’s memory loss: (X, X.) Maybe her seeing Carol but not knowing who she is, or Daryl seeing or hearing Beth but not believing it’s really her. It just sort of plays into the whole hallucination theme obliquely.

Judith then says that Michonne just didn’t look like herself because of all the blood, but after a moment, she saw it was her. So, more masks. And Michonne was kind of right. At first, Judith really didn’t recognize her, or at least thought she looked like someone else. More of the same theme.

But that bicycle is a big deal. It’s showcased obviously in the episode, and bikes almost always represent kidnapping or captivity. We saw them around Glenn in S1 when he was taken by the Vatos gang. We saw one outside the Claimer house when Rick got away. I feel like this foreshadows Judith being kidnapped. She already was once by Jocelyn. But Michonne sees that bike in the present-day scenes, which makes them a foreshadow, not a callback.

So, I’ll be the first to admit that this is mostly speculation and at least half head canon, but I’m really wondering if Leah and Beth will be the good and evil to one another. (This is obviously going to be the case in terms of a good/healthy vs unhealthy romantic relationships. And if Leah is a hallucination, and Beth will obviously be real, you can already see how they’re doing this with Beth and Leah.)

Leah is wearing a mask when Daryl is with her. And once again, she may not be totally evil like Jocelyn was. But she may be misrepresenting herself in some way. Toxic at the least, evil at the most. But maybe the reason she’s practically wearing Beth’s clothes is that she’s a foil or anti-parallel to Beth.

And you see what I mean about how, if Leah turns out to be a hallucination, clearly this won’t apply to her in a literal way.

I still think there’s a good chance she’s a hallucination, but I think this still applies. It wouldn’t be literal or physical if that’s the case, but she’s still the “bad” relationship as opposed to the good one Daryl will have with Beth. We all talked extensively about how unhealthy the relationship was right after 10x18 aired. How Leah gave him an ultimatum, didn’t seem to want to meet his family, etc. So, you can see that, real or not, the relationships will be juxtaposed, with one being good and the other, bad.

The other thing want to mention is that it’s interesting that they did this story (Scars) with Michonne instead of Daryl. It makes me think that something about Michonne and Rick’s reunion story might follow this template as well.

We’ve discussed how Leah might be part of the New Mexico symbolism, and I’ve had people message me that they’re afraid that when Daryl and Carol take off together for the spinoff, he’ll be looking for Leah. Now, I obviously don’t think he would be looking for her in a romantic/looking-for-Beth sort of way, but it’s possible that she may be involved.

And like I said at the beginning, I think there’s a good chance of parallels between Leah and Jocelyn, because they both happened during the 6-year time jump, and then there’s all the other ties like, “are you okay being alone,” the mask theme, and that Carol knew about her/the acorn conversation.

I’m actually thinking this less and less, now. I really don’t think the New Mexico symbolism will be fulfilled until the spinoff, and we already know Leah will be in s11. So, I suppose if she survives S11 (and depending on whether she’s real or not) she COULD still be involved, but the timelines just don’t seem to match up to me. At least, not right now. This may change depending on what S11 brings us.

So, total conjecture here, but I’m really wondering if Leah (or if not her, someone else Jocelyn foreshadowed) will kidnap Judith, and that’s why Daryl and Carol leave to go after her. It would fit with the TWB template for Daryl and Carol (Felix and Huck on TWB) to be following Judith (Hope and Iris on TWB). If so, Daryl might really might be following Leah to New Mexico, but not out some romantic inclination, but rather because she took the kids.

Another possibility, of course, is that Leah is real, but Daryl was drugged or is just remembering things wrong. If that ends up being the case, then this could still happen. But again, we’ll just have to wait and see.

So yeah. Let’s just say I have plenty of head canons filed away in which Beth kicks some evil Leah butt. I would enjoy that very much. :D Granted, it probably won’t play out quite that neatly for us, but that’s what head canons are for, right?

And as I said, I can’t be sure this has to do with Leah. It’s possible this storyline is completely independent of Leah, and she’ll be something else entirely. But I think something like this will happen either way. And I’m sure I’ll recognize it as fulfillment when it does.

Any thoughts?

[twdmusicboxmystery]

10x22: Here’s Negan - Details

All right. Here are a LOT of details. 

***As always, spoilers abound below for 10x22. Don’t read until you’ve watched!***

We start with Maggie and Hershel walking around Alexandria early in the morning. She calls him “a little rat” affectionately, which I’m side eying. Because of Carol’s rat last episode and because we already established parallels between Hershel and Beth from ep 17 in that he went missing and Maggie and Daryl searched for him.

Then they sing “you are my sunshine” together, which is the same song Carl sang Negan. Because the sun is a Beth symbol, we’ve always seen her in that song. I also wonder if it foreshadows Maggie losing Hershel in some way. I don’t mean him dying, but rather being kidnapped. A lot of us have thought about one or some of the kids being taken at some point, and their parents having to search for them.  

Carol looks out a broken window (Broken Glass Theory) and sees the exchange. So, she leaves Alexandria and takes Negan with her.

Actually, the next thing we see is a dead rabbit she pulls from a snare. The rabbit is SUPER interesting. I answered an Ask HERE about the moon rabbit, and I really love this explanation of the symbol. It makes perfect sense for Beth because the moon rabbit sacrificed itself, which is exactly what Father Gabriel said cryptically in 5x16. “How you sacrificed one of your own….”

Plus the Moon rabbit is resurrected and combines the moon symbol and the rabbit symbol.

So what does it mean in this context? 

Well, I still don’t want to go into too much detail, though I will soon. (I promise.) But if rabbit = Beth, I think this is yet another example of symbolism that points to Negan and Beth having a big arc together later. (And Carol will probably be thrown into the mix.)

That evening, Negan drinks by the fire. What he’s drinking is clearly moonshine. It’s from one of those big glass moonshine bottles. I don’t know where he got it. I looked a second time at the stuff they left for him, and it might be in there, but if so, it isn’t visible. It would certainly be interesting if Daryl left him moonshine, but I don’t see any super-obvious hint at that. If it’s already there in the cabin, well, that’s Leah’s cabin, so….

This is where he sees his old self from the trailer. Some of the dialogue jumps out at me as things Daryl might say about himself. Evil Negan says to his good self, “You are nothing without her.” That sort of thing.

The next day he goes back to the tree with the stained-glass windows where Rick cut his throat. One of the plate glass windows has a hole in it and the other one is lying on the ground. 

My go-to explanation of course is that the one with the hole represents the bullet hole in Beth’s head. (We actually said this of the stained-glass window in Father Gabriel’s church that Sasha shoots a hole in in 5x16 as well.) And I always see someone falling down as a serious injury. So, when Beth belly-flopped in the elevator shaft with Noah, that was a foreshadow of her getting shot. So I’m kind of seeing the window lying flat on the ground in the same way.

Of course, Negan digs up Lucille, and then it goes into the flashbacks.

It starts of course with him being a prisoner of the biker gang. We do think this gang is a parallel of the Claimers from S4. Remember that I said, overall, Negan = Daryl, right? So, this guy (Craven) even kind of looks like Joe Claimer. They dress in a similar fashion, are rough-and-tumble kind of dudes. But also, Negan runs into them after he loses Lucille. He doesn’t realize she’s died at that point, but she has. Just like Daryl ran into the Claimers after being separated from Beth in Alone.

And we immediately see a blue cooler with IV bags inside. They’re Lucille’s chemo treatments. So blue cooler/Frosty Cola symbolism. Plus this can parallel to 6x06 when Daryl accidentally took off with Tina’s medicine when he met Dwight. Basically, these are both pointing to the same thing: a future arc involving Daryl and Beth. There are also 22s on the IV bags. So, 22 theory.

I will say that the format of this episode is a lot like 10x18 because so much of it is flashback. They even use the same font to show the time jumps. The main difference is that with Daryl, they started 5 years ago and then jumped forward, toward the present. Here, they actually move backward first and then forward again.

So it’s like a swinging pendulum. They go back 12 years to where he’s a prisoner of the bikers. Then it goes back 6 weeks to when he’s with Lucille in their home , and then it jumps back again to before the apocalypse when she first found out she had cancer, which was right about the time the turn happened. And then it moves forward to the two of them together in the house, and then back to him with the bikers.

Okay, so, “12 Years Ago” he’s telling his story to the bikers.

Then it actually says “Two or Three Days Ago” and it’s odd to me that they don’t specify which one it is. Negan says he found the mobile medical clinic 2 or 3 days ago, but there’s got to be a reason they don’t just go with one or the other. Anyway, this is when he found an RV with supplies. He tries to hold the doctor up and Laura (Savior) comes up behind him with a bat and hits him.

We also get a bit of a hallucination theme. When Negan looks at the RV and the dummy guards on the roof, his sight sort of warps in and out like he can’t tell for sure. When he wakes up, he’s also hooked to an IV. (Parallel to Beth at Grady.) The doctor says he was dehydrated, malnourished, and exhausted. So maybe, in addition to all the mental break stuff we’ve already said about Daryl in 10x18, we should add these to the list.

“Six Weeks Earlier” and it shows him and Lucille. The first thing we see is that she tells him he’ll have to kill the walker but he doesn’t want to. He just turns off the generator, hoping it will go.

So, she makes him read Pride and Prejudice to her. The Pride and Prejudice thing is really interesting. He only reads a line or two, but anyone familiar with the story will be able to pick out the scene. Basically, in the story, a man asks Lizzie to marry him and she rejects him. He doesn’t love her or anything. He’s just looking for a “suitable” wife, and she can’t stand him. After she rejects him, her best friend marries him instead. And this friend doesn’t care that it’s not a love match. She just wants to be settled in life.

So the scene Negan reads part of is where the friend, Charlotte, is coming to tell Lizzie that she’s marrying him instead. This is the part Negan reads:

"I see what you are feeling," replied Charlotte. "You must be surprised, very much surprised--so lately as Mr. Collins was wishing to marry you. But when you have had time to think it over…”

Here’s the thing. No way they’re putting dialogue from such a well-known book like this into the show without reason. And I know they said on TTD that it’s supposed to be an Easter Egg for Pride and Prejudice and Zombies. Fair enough, but it’s not enough of an explanation for me. In the past, there have been things Nicotero has labelled as homages to various horror films, and I’m sure that’s true, but they’re also clearly Beth symbolism.

So, you could say that Pride and Prejudice and Zombies applies to Negan and Lucille. It’s a true love story, but zombies are thrown in. That works. But why this particular passage? It’s about NOT marrying for love, or the passing of a man’s offer of marriage from one woman to another. None of that applies to Negan and Lucille. It would have made more sense to have him read a different passage between Lizzie and Darcy, you know?

So, what does this mean? We’re not entirely sure, yet. For me, I tend to think it foreshadows a future arc (I’m sure you’re shocked) and I’ll get more into that in the next few days.

@wdway​ suggested perhaps we could apply it to the Leah situation. Daryl is in love with one woman, but hallucinating a relationship with another. I think that works, too. For now, let’s just keep it in mind, shall we? ;D

Dialogue parallels include Lucille saying, “we’ll have to kill it,” which parallels Beth saying the same thing about the walker at the moonshine shack.

And of course then we get that all important scene with the green wig, “serious” mention, IV stand and bag, and walker in the eye.

We see Negan going out to look for more gas for the generator, siphoning it out of cars.

We also see them having fun together. Obviously them playing darts is a callback to Still. The part where they play darts is actually just like half a second in the show, which just goes to show that they did the promo shot because they wanted us to see the symbols in the scene. I want to draw everyone’s attention to the fact that the British flag is printed on the darts. This is part of the template I’ll talk about in a day or two as well. For now, I just want you to notice it. It’s important.

When they do the candlelight dinner (*coughs alone*) they eat DOG food. Sirius reference. She suddenly says “happy anniversary” and pulls out a present for him. He says, “You know what day it is?” and she says, “no, I just wanted you to have this.” So I think the idea is that it’s not really their anniversary. She just said that as an excuse to give him a present. It reminded me a little of the “New Years Eve” theme we saw around the Claimers. Not exactly the same, but a similar vibe. It’s not REALLY New Year’s Eve. They’re just saying it as an excuse to do something else (in that case, kill Rick). Here, it’s not really their anniversary, but Lucille is saying that as an excuse to give him the jacket.

When Negan says she doesn’t owe him anything Lucille says, “I stuck with you because I could always see the man you are right now, even when you weren’t.” So again, kind of a Beth theme of seeing the best in him even when he doesn’t see it in himself. That’s a huge theme throughout this episode.

There’s more refrigerator/cooler symbolism when the fridge defrosts, ruining the last of Lucille’s treatments.

Then it jumps back to before the apocalypse. There were some symbols here as well. The main ones I noticed were specifically around Lucille. After her diagnosis, she gets in the car and hears the broadcast about the virus victims eating human flesh. Kind of a callback to hearing the Terminus broadcast in 4a.

Then she gets mad and says, just play some g**d*** music. (Music reference.) When the car pulls out, you have to check out this license plate!

XVD-1144. The 1-1 you should recognize from @frangipanilove’s 1-1 posts. The 44 references the comic book issue where Andrea was shot in the head, and survived. And of course there’s the X. So then @wdway had the ingenious idea to ask what roman numerals X and D stood for. X=5 and D=500. So we basically have “X, 550, 1-1, 44.” Yeah, series number 55 was Slabtown. Beth was on the 5th floor. And all the rooms around them in the hallway at Grady were in the 550s. If that’s not proof that Lucille is a Beth proxy, I don’t know what is.

Plus, notice the type of car: mustang. We’ve talked about this before, but horse symbolism, and the type of car is always important.

Another thing @wdway​ with her eagle eyes picked up. Lucille is scrolling back and forth between Negan and Janine’s numbers, right? Notice the date:

November 12. Recognize that:

Yeah, not kidding. It’s a reference to the headstone in Alone. 👀

Back in the future again, Lucille asks Negan to stay with her. You don’t realize this the first time watching it, but clearly she’s ready to die, and just wants him to be with her, but he’s bound and determined to save her, an goes anyway.

A couple of things to point out. Negan looking for meds parallels to Daryl looking for meds at the veterinary college in 4a. Also, on TTD they pointed out that Negan is constantly putting Lucille in a position to be alone. Before the apocalypse, he left her alone to fool around with another woman, who was her best friend. He made her go to the doctor alone. (Lucille alone at the hospital could = Beth at Grady.) We see him constantly leaving her here to get supplies. And he leaves for like 6 six weeks to track the mobile clinic.

I think that’s mostly an anti-parallel to Daryl. Daryl never left Beth intentionally. But I also think it could be a future theme, not in the sense that Daryl will leave her, but I’ve always thought he would feel super guilty because they left her behind and now she’s been “alone” for 8 years. And again, not physically alone as we know she’ll be part of other groups and such, but without him and her family.

Back with the medical people again, Laura gives Negan her bat, the one she first beaned him with, since he doesn’t have any other weapons.

All they said about Laura on TTD was that they wanted to use her—someone the audience would recognize—but also someone who had a relatively minor role. So they talked about how they could have brought Austin Amelio on and had Dwight give it to him, but because Dwight is a bigger character, and because his onscreen relationship with Negan was much bigger, it would have made it a Negan/Dwight moment and they wanted to keep this episode focused solely on Negan and Lucille. So they used Laura.

And sure, that’s fine. But they could have used any Savior they wanted. And why did they even WANT a familiar face? Why the return of the Savior with the blond hair, you know? I’m just saying. ;D

Of course Negan tells the biker gang where the medical RV is and then goes back to Lucille, but she’s already dead. This really was a very tragic episode.

We obviously have a suicide theme here, and the fact that Negan never actually shoots or stabs Lucille in the head, both of which parallel Beth. 

On TTD, YNB even pointed out that she’s wearing the same clothes as she was the day he left, which means she committed suicide the day he left. Most of the 6 weeks he’s been out looking for medical supplies, she was already dead. Super tragic, no?

We also see keys, matches, the blue cooler again, and Negan wrapping the barbed wire around his bat. 

So, a couple of preliminary thoughts here. The 6 weeks was bugging me because they said it 2 or 3 times, really emphasizing it. I’m kind of wanting to equate it to 6 seasons. Because if Beth doesn’t show until S11 (and clearly now she can’t, unless she shows in Fear or something, but I’m not holding my breath for that) then it will be 6 seasons since Beth left the show.

And again, it’s more anti-parallel than parallel. For 6 weeks, Negan thought Lucille was alive, but she was dead the entire time. For 6 seasons, Daryl thought Beth was dead, when really she’s been alive the whole time.

And, of course, Negan burns the house down, much like Beth and Daryl did in Still.

But here’s the other thing @wdway noticed. Check out the similarities here:

Similar colors and structures, and both seem to be on fire at some point. And I don’t think the cabin in 5x09 was pointing toward Negan and Lucille. Rather, I think the symbolism in both instances point toward something we haven’t seen, yet. But the parallels and repeated symbolism are there.

When Negan leaves, he gets on his bike with Lucille (the bat) and drives away from the burning house. And interestingly, we see him smack his mailbox with it and knock it off it’s post. 

Couple of things here:

The name “Smith” is written on the mailbox, so apparently that was their last name. And they mentioned it on TTD. Smith is such an everyman sort of name. It might be one of the most common surnames on the planet, so there’s definitely some interesting symbolism there having to do with Negan.

But I’m side-eyeing the actual mailbox, as part of the Communication Theme. And, on a very basic level, I’m thinking that the mailbox was intact when Lucille was still alive. He destroyed it after he lost her. So maybe it represents something along those lines, or even represents the person they lost. So mailbox = Beth.

The scene that keeps flashing in my head is from 6x03 when Daryl is riding around on his bike, searching for Rick, and he’s passing all these mailboxes in the background. 

Then in 10x21, we see him walking toward the military walker on the train tracks (*coughs CRM, *coughs Rick*) and he passes the blond, Beth walker, but doesn’t actually look at her or see her. Do you kind of see the similar theme there?

Negan brutally killing the biker gang can parallel Rick doing the same to Joe Claimer in 4x16.

Negan tells Craven a story about how he lost his job. He got in a bar fight. It was their favorite because it had a JUKE BOX. And they loved the juke box because it played their favorite song (You are So Beautiful to Me.) He even talks about “seeing red” and how he now realizes he can do anything he wants (read: kill anyone he wants) so we kind of see his evolution into S6 Negan here.

And honestly, they leave a lot of loose threads here. We never learn what happens to Franklin (he’s still alive at this point) and obviously Laura stays with Negan long term, but they really could do more flashbacks about how he started gathering people and found the Sanctuary.

So then we come back to the present where he’s just dug Lucille up under the stained glass window tree. In the first scene at the beginning, we see a walker making its way toward him. Yes, it’s a blond, female walker, and I’m pretty sure she’s wearing Daryl’s shirt from when he was at the Sanctuary. Here at the end, Negan has been lost in his own thoughts so long, the walker comes up behind him and he turns around and kills it with Lucille. 

When he does, the bat splits down the middle. Yet another symbol of Lucille’s death.

He goes back to the cabin and sits in front of the fire and talks to Lucille (both the bat and his actual wife). He says, “I’m sorry I left you…I made myself not feel anything…I miss you.” See how we could apply that to Daryl?

He also says, “I’m going to do your fighting for you,” which I take to mean he’ll honor her memory better, now, rather than go back to the old, evil Negan he was. Which was really just years of him avoiding his feelings about her death. (Kind of like Daryl has with Beth, hence the Leah situation.)

Then he covers the bat in a white cloth (clearly meant to be a shroud) and puts the bat in the fireplace, burning it. On TTD, they do say this is meant to be the funeral she never got. 👀

Oh, and at the end of the “in memoriam” on TTD, it actually says, “Negan is burning down his past.”

So, at the very end, he actually goes back to Alexandria. Maggie, Carol, and Daryl are near the entrance and he asks where the “A” team is going. Carol warns Negan that if he lives at Alexandria, Maggie will kill him at some point. I actually really liked this ending. It was a good way to kick us into S11.

That’s the end of the episode. So, I’ll say this again and it will be a good segue into my next post about what I think Beth’s arc will be in S11, and how she’ll appear. I’ll post it either tomorrow or Thursday.

Without getting too much into the weeds, I think Negan and Beth will have some major, future interaction. And I really think the symbolism here backs it up, for various reasons. The symbolism itself wouldn’t prove anything, as we’ve seen this stuff repeated with lots of different characters and especially true love couples, which Negan and Lucille clearly were, despite his cheating.

But on TTD, Hilarie Burton talked about how strong Lucille was. She said she liked the character because so often when cancer victims or victims of other prolonged diseases are portrayed on film, they’re seen as angelic, ethereal beings. And while that’s fine if that’s truly who they are, you don’t lose your personality just because you become sick. So she liked it that Lucille was a little rough around the edges. She says that even before the apocalypse, Negan was just fussy enough that he would need a strong woman to rein him in, and he would also be attracted to exactly this kind of strong woman. 

Strong woman = Beth.

So, I’ll just leave it there.

Anyone find any symbols I missed?

[twdmusicboxmystery]

Hints of Beth on Kirkman’s Reddit Thread 👀👀👀

Okay, thank for suggesting this Nonny. And thanks to everyone else who has sent in pictures and posts about this thread. I’m not going to post them all here, but just know that I’ve seen them and I did go through this entire thread. It became a MAJOR rabbit hole for me.

Actually, I kind of went down two major rabbit holes yesterday, which are somewhat intertwined, but I’m not going to get into the second one until after ep 22 airs. (Sorry for the tease.)

So I basically saw two different patterns here that made me happy.

Pattern #1 That’s Making Me 👀👀👀

How often he mentions here.

So, let’s unpack this. In this thread, as Nonny says, Kirkman randomly mentions Beth somewhere between 5 and 10 times. As with the one posted yesterday, he just randomly brings her up in comments that aren’t even asking about her.

I mean, this definitely means something to TD, because we realize that symbolically, Leah = Beth. But most of the GA has no clue about that symbolism. This person isn’t asking about Beth. So why does Kirkman feel the need to bring her up? At the very least, this is a hint about some sort of link between Leah and Beth. (At the most, he’s hinting about Beth’s return.)

On the other hand, some of them ARE questions about Beth. But I mean, what the hell is this supposed to mean?

Just enough for what?

And, I don’t seem to have taken a screenshot of it, but there was one where someone said they wanted Beth to come back, and he responded, “Sorry, she’s dead.”

But then in another one, he answered the exact same question this way, as Nonny points out above:

So he’s definitely all over the place and clearly misdirecting. And then there are some Beth queries he didn’t bother to answer:

So, even taken by itself, I would lump this in with the Beth mentions in 10x17, and the insane number of social media hints we’ve gotten lately. THERE’S. JUST. SO. MANY.

Has Robert Kirkman mentioned Beth before, both positively and negatively?

Yes.

Has he done what most people consider trolling?

Yes.

But never to the extent I’m seeing on this thread.

Pattern #2 That’s Making Me 👀👀👀

So, while I was reading through the thread, I started to pick up a second pattern.

Not every time, but at least two or three of the times he mentions Beth, it’s either in a question about Clementine, or he also mentions Clementine in connection with Beth.

Who is Clementine? Don’t feel bad if you don’t know. I didn’t either. This is why I called this a rabbit hole. I started looking up information about her and got totally obsessed in a matter of minutes.

Clementine is a popular female character from one of the TWD games. You can read more about her HERE.

Now, here’s the funny thing. I’m almost positive that some years ago, someone sent me something about Clementine and possible parallels to Beth. I have to say that I wasn’t terribly receptive to the idea.

Don’t get me wrong, I could see the parallels they pointed out, but they seemed too generic to me at the time. I mean, being a badass young woman in the apocalypse is going to have some parallels to all the strong female protagonists in TWD universe. And I didn’t know nearly as much back then about where Beth’s arc was going, so I just didn’t see a strong enough connection to justify it.

Yeah, I’ve officially changed my mind on that. Not only are there parallels in the way Clementine’s character was built--I think she grew up on a ranch, bonded with someone a lot like Daryl, etc--but a lot of what happens in her arc is stuff we’ve been predicting for Beth for a long time.

For example, the child and baby symbolism around Beth. Because of this symbolism, and also the episode Scars (I think that was an anti-parallel to Beth) that she’ll come back leading a band of kids, just like Jocelyn did; except they’ll be good instead of evil. They’ll all be miniature Beths and Daryls. Well, guess what, Clementine leads a band of lost children and looks out for them.

I won’t go into all of it in detail, but there is a piracy storyline for Clementine, there is a whole boat thing. The first “episode” she was in was called A New Day (kind of like A New Dawn, which we first saw in 4x01 with the Bethyl hug). AND, best of all, she had a death fake out. So I guess at the end of the final episode she was in, she was bitten, and asked her friend to put her down so she wouldn’t turn. Apparently, viewers (or players?) saw an ax descend and everyone assumed she was gone. And she was a very beloved, badass character, so there was a huge fan reaction to her game. (Sound familiar?)

Anyway, in this same thread, Kirkman hints that Clementine might not be dead and there are plans for her. The fans who see that hint kind of freak out. Notice their reactions here:

See what I mean? These reactions could practically be Bethylers talking about Beth.

And Kirkman keeps randomly mentioning Beth in conjunction with Clementine.

Now, I know I’ll get at least one person asking if this means they’re going to bring Clementine onto the show and maybe Daryl will fall in love with her instead.

No, that’s not what it means. I’m sure lots of people, when Beth returns, will frame this as the writers giving Beth Clementine’s arc from the game. And that’s fine to see it that way, but I actually think the opposite is true.

We know (and this is something Kirkman has confirmed) that he patterned Dwight’s character after Daryl. Dwight wasn’t a character in the comics until after the show took off and Daryl’s popularity skyrocketed. Obviously comic Dwight was never nearly as cool as TV show Daryl, but Kirkman did pattern the character after him.

I think he did the same thing with Clementine and Beth. I checked, and Clementine showed up as a character in 2012, between seasons 2 and 3, which means Beth was already a thing and Gimple had already done her suicide arc. I don’t know if they had all the details nailed down back then, but I do think that at the very least Gimple knew he’d be taking her from the relatively weak character she was in S2 and turning her into a strong, Daryl-like badass.

And yes, I think Kirkman has always known everything Gimple does about Beth’s arc, and that’s why he can speak about it so flippantly.

So, if you’ve been following the symbolism long at all, go check out Clementine’s arc. You’ll see exactly what I mean and why I’m so excited about it.

But this was probably my favorite answer he gave:

Again, I know he’s hoping this comes across as flippant, but look at what he’s saying if you take it literally. He’s saying that by the time Invincible season 2 is out, Beth will have returned. And then he even adds the “Clementine Lives!” bit.

Yeah, I think he’s dropping hints right and left here. So this made me EXTREMELY happy yesterday.

Switching gears just a bit, I also screen-shoted a couple of other things he said. They aren’t directly Beth related, but I found them interesting and thought you would, too.

How many times have I said they will be back, but in the spinoff, not the flagship series?

He’s says it’s far away, but I’m still happy to hear this. Can’t wait to see all the shows merge. I think it’s gonna be great!

I have more to say on the piracy angle of Clementine’s arc, but that’s the second rabbit hole I probably won’t post about for at least another week (maybe two). Stay tuned.

Thoughts?

[twdmusicboxmystery]

Chess Theory 2.0

This theory comes from a discussion me and my fellow theorists had after this ask was posted:

I really love the idea of the black and white representing the battle between the CRM and the Commonwealth. We can’t know for sure if it does, but given everything leading up to this point in the story, it definitely could. My fellow theorists and I had extensive discussions about this, with @wdway especially contributing a lot of thoughts and research.

@wdway:

Starting with the ask, I love it so much and believe they could be quite right that the black could represent the CRM and the white the Commonwealth, and they could be at odds with one another and our group. TF will be caught in the middle.

Since I feel strongly that Beth could be tied to Eugene's group’s storyline, that would make her white. Rick we know is with the CRM, which makes him black. If both Beth and Rick are fighting independently within these two groups and that would make them neither black nor white but gray. This is the part that I've said for quite a while: that gray represents a middle ground, it's neither black nor white.

Beth and Rick in Coda. I chose this shot because they almost look like one unit. Both in gray from behind so that Beth's yellow shirt is not a distraction to the gray that ties these two characters together.

I also love the fact that the red machete could easily belong to either one in this shot. And with a thought that colors have different meanings for different scenes, I believe in this particular case, the gray represents that the scene is not as black-and-white, as clear cut as it seems, that there are things going on here that the viewers are not aware of. It has shades of grey for these two characters. 

Also, it could tell us why Daryl wore one white leg tie and one black leg tie. They represent the two people that he loves and will lose, believing they are both dead. He will search for them both and not be able to find either one.

Twdmusicboxmystery: Breaking into @wdway’s thoughts here just to have a wowza moment. Can you see how they’ve set this up from the start? Can you see how it lines up? Okay, back to @wdway:

@wdway​:

I simply could not go back to the hall scene in Coda without watching Daryl carry Beth out. This time I noticed something that I had never noticed before. @Frangipanilove, this one is especially up your alley. Look at the walkway right behind Daryl. On the left side, there is two parallel lines =. On the other right side is a directional symbol <. How have we not noticed this before?

I then wanted to look at the Commonwealth soldiers, so I went to the episode 16, when Eugene's group is surrounded and again I noticed something that I didn't before. 

PM 110 and RX 04. I'll start with RX, we have always attached the "X" to Beth, it can also stand for the number 10, and it has multiple meanings. When paired with an R (which could possibly stand for Rick) RX is a medical or drug symbol used for a Latin word, "recipe" meaning "to take." Yes I Googled it. I'm not sure about the PM but 101 is the series number for s8e11, Dead or Alive Or.

@twdmusicboxmystery: Breaking in again to point out that Dead or Alive Or was one of the episode titles mentioned during the Cast Trivia Battle I posted about a few days ago. Just saying.

 @wdway:

It's the episode that is so very full of Beth symbols that it's not even funny. There also Tara and Dwight's conflict and Daryl trying to take the children/people of AZ to Hilltop. 

I do want to note in the photograph above if you look at the desk you see droplets of black paint against the white top. Like I said, every symbol that we can imagine for Beth is pretty much in that episode.

@frangipanilove​:

Love this! It actually does get my mind spinning. I had to google the meaning of PM and the literal meaning is the Latin “post meridiem”, which of course translates to “after noon”. We have all these Dawn references and midnight references and clocks etc on TWD, so an “after noon” reference doesn’t seem entirely out of place. I’ve been obsessed with ep 8x11 for a multitude of reasons. A bunch of Sirius references, the green Jaguar car, the Sirius piggy bank, FGs blindness, animal traps.

Mostly I’m obsessed about it because the original Noah’s t-shirt theory pointed to 8x2, when we saw the blue heron painting, but I later realized that the “2” could also point to 8x11. The radio shack is a huge Sirius symbol in and of itself, and it even ties into ep 10x11 “morning star” (Venus/Sirius reference). I’ve never noticed the = symbol and the < symbol behind Daryl. It’s incredible that we can still discover new things in episodes we’ve watched a thousand and one times already.

@twdmusicboxmystery:

One thing I keep circling back to is the Governor because the white, king chess piece was so obviously a symbol for him. And I do think they used that specifically for his arc, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t a foreshadow of another, bigger, future arc. And there was SO much Beth symbolism around him, especially in 4x06. And his chess piece was white, not black.

@wdway:

I've already gone back and started searching some things and have some ideas that will connect Beth with white and Rick with black symbolically that I'm excited about. I've already solved the problem of the white chess piece connected to the governor and I think you will love my findings.

I was thinking about the gray and Beth’s sweater and Rick's shirt in Coda, when suddenly I remembered that it was not Beth's first sweater. Her first sweater we saw in Still and it was white.

Now, this sweater has been talked about a lot through the years. White typically stands for purity, both in body and in mind and I think you can we can use both for Beth in this example. 

When Beth stands next to the Rich Bitch walker, I think it's a matter of purity of the heart. The Rich Bitch, although outwardly she's in white. she was not a person with a pure heart. What color a person wears on the outside doesn't necessarily reflect in color of their soul. Not all white is good not all black is bad.

Shortly after Beth put on the white sweater, she is covered in blood and she removes it. You would still call it a white sweater, but it has stains that cannot be removed. Her soul will always be white, but she will have strains that cannot be removed. The next time we see her in a sweater it will be a light gray, more white than black. It represents coming to grips in the world that she is in now and will be in the future.

The challenge is, if Beth represents white, what does that mean about the Governor’s white chess piece? We know the Gov was not pure of heart, so how could he be white?

When the Governor originally found the chess board and was teaching Megan the game, he is black. It was Megan that draws that eye patch on the white king because outwardly he seemed to be pure of heart, but he was not. It was an illusion. He was a black king chess piece. So, what about the fact that Rick is black, does that make him a villain? Does he have an evil heart? I believe that Rick has always struggled with his dark demons. It's in the fact that he desires to be noble and good, even though he can do bad things, his desire is pure, to have a white heart.

The next couple of shots was just confirmation that Beth will appear as white and Rick as black. Her shoes from Slabtown. 

One shoelace is white, the other is black. When I went back to look at the shoelaces, for the first time I realized that her shoes are gray. Love that.

This, I'm sure you will recognize as being from Coda, just before the exchange of prisoners. 

I'm always harping about the fact that diamond shape represents Beth, a square represents Rick. You can turn the square on its side, and it becomes a diamond. If you go back and look at the chessboard, it's a huge indication that I'm correct. If you look at the board from one angle it is blocks of squares if you look at it slightly from the side, it's diamonds.

So here, Beth is in the hallway and she will end up standing in the middle of the white diamond on top of the black square. Beth and Rick could have similar but different stories. They’re both in rebel groups, fighting for the same type of cause but in different locations. I think if that's the case, especially with Beth, we could see her appearing to be on the inside, a villain type, but in reality, more of a double agent.

They showed us in Slabtown how she could manipulate and play the game that she had to in order to survive and get what she needed.

This picture is from Dead Weight, from the cabin that the Gov searched. There are a lot of Native American symbols in that cabin and this one stood to me. It is a dreamcatcher.

This next picture is of the room in WHWGO, I'll remind you that on the corner post of the bed is a small dreamcatcher.

I think this links the two episodes together. It's hard to imagine that they would put so much symbolism and foreshadowing all in one episode, so they spread it out over several episodes and seasons. In this bottom shot, we have a black helmet sitting on top of some type of communication equipment, a telescope for gazing at the stars, a poster about science fiction with a rocket on it, a small toy helicopter on the side table. And of course we have the Dreamcatcher which imo is pointing to the next stage of clues. The other things that tie this episode and the Gov's episodes together.

 Hard to get any bigger tie than the Governor himself, surrounded with military and water symbols.

Maybe there is another symbol that could tie this to the past and future storylines. 

A shot of the Gov and Beth together in this room. Even though he is not in this shot, Rick later, at the end of episode, comes into this room. Rick, Beth, and the Gov at some point are surrounded in this room with a helicopter, rockets, airplanes, and a ton of water symbols.

What did I hear you ask? But there are no chess objects? That might be true in a material way, but I believe the conversation between Ty and the Gov was definitely a chess play, a game of strategy, moving back and forth, a power-play of sorts.

So that's all I have for you right now.

@twdmusicboxmystery:

Love all this! When I was putting together my Divine Comedy Theory, I was thinking about AOW (because that’s when we saw the “Abandon all hope…” sign) and that maybe AOW was a type of the CW vs CRM war. Most of the major conflicts probably have been. The fall of the prison. AOW. Certainly TF vs the Whisperers. Maybe even Terminus. This idea is just making me re-think everything. I’m sure if we went back and rewatched, we’d see more clues than ever.

@wdway:

There was one thing that I meant to mention from Live Bait. In the nursing home, we see the woman in the yellow wheelchair. She is wearing a white gown with black trim. She had marks on her feet to make her a Christ symbol figure and we've always connected her with Beth because of the yellow chair.

Now I'm thinking she could represent white/Commonwealth and black/CRM. Because now we not only have Beth as a Christ figure symbol, but we have Rick also. Something that we did not have before the last couple of seasons. It seems easier to connect Beth to the color white. We have been doing that for years and thinking she could be at the Commonwealth and could be a part of Eugene's storyline fits with what could be coming.

Rick is harder when looking to past seasons and connecting him to the color black, but we know for certain that he was taken by the helicopter people and been told by tptb that he is with the CRM. From all that we've seen, their military color is black.

@twdmusicboxmystery:

Just want to point out that in 8x12, The Key, there’s definitely a black theme going on. Rick crashes a black car, 

everything in the basement he and Negan go into is black, Negan is wearing a black coat, 

(I don’t think Rick’s shirt is black, but it’s dark enough to look black here:)

and even the sign, “Abandon All Hope Ye Who Enter Here” is written in black. 

We’ve always knew this was foreshadow of Rick’s disappearance in the helicopter group and it does suggest a black theme.

The other thing I noticed is that in the pic of Beth’s shoelaces, it’s specifically the WHITE lace/shoe was spattered with blood, just like her white sweater in Still. 

So, those two symbols are probably synonymous. I don’t have much to add for how to interpret that beyond what we’ve already said, but it’s interesting. But I guess this is the other thing I was thinking about the Gov’s S4 episodes. And there’s no way to know this for sure. But because we saw Native American stuff in the cabin he stayed in, and also around the Wolves, and both of those are heavily paralleled to Beth, I guess I’m wondering if the Native American stuff will somehow be fulfilled in this CW/CRM war stuff.

@wdway:

I love that you mentioned the blood spatter on Beth's white sweater and the shoe with the white laces. I made note of it and meant to mention it and forgot. Another thing that came to my mind in looking at the Native American stuff in the cabin is it reminded me of Ezekiel in past seasons wearing feathers in his hair. He is now with Eugene and company being held by the Commonwealth and needing medical attention.

I know it may just be wishful thinking but when we first saw the Kingdom it screamed Beth. At Grady, we saw Beth in a medical setting, learning from Dr. Edwards being his assistant which in the dead world is the new form of medical school. Fast forward, if she is with the Commonwealth it would be more than likely in some kind of medical position with the possibility of Beth and Ezekiel meeting. And gives a purpose to the painting of Beth at Hilltop to be recognized by Ezekiel. There's the question of did Eugene see Beth at Grady or was he still unconscious, if so then there again the painting.

@twdmusicboxmystery:

I love the Zeke/feather tie. Side note: I have ALL kinds of head canons of Beth and Ezekiel meeting and swapping stories about Daryl and Carol.

@wdway:

Yes! Can't help but think that Ezekiel, Carol's husband and the love of her life and Daryl's love Beth could possibly meet in the Commonwealth. That this could lead to them all coming together and then torn apart. My headcanon is that something will happen, probably to do with his cancer and Ezekiel will be sent out west and Beth will go with him. I can imagine their first meeting, Elijah keeps looking at Beth asking, do I know you, you look so familiar. And they start talking about the fact that Beth is from Georgia and it all comes together. Please don't let the writers pass up this great opportunity, especially when it seems that they've been setting this up the whole time.

@twdmusicboxmystery:

Yeah for sure! Love that! I’ve always thought about maybe him mentioning that his wife is named Carol. And maybe she doesn’t even think it’s the one she knows bc more than one person can be named Carol, right? But through conversation or more details, just as your head canon above, they realize this is the Carol she knows. Scenes like these would be so much fun!

@frangipanilove:

You guys discussed the blood on Beth’s white cardigan and on the shoe with white laces. It’s actually something I’ve thought about before, though I still don’t know what the most precise interpretation of it should be. But I’ve mentioned that I believe shoe/leg/foot references allude to the trunk of a car (because boot is Australian and British for trunk). Also, I believe that TPTB sometimes use the human trunk to allude to the trunk of a car (the upper body walkers coming out of the back of a car in WHAWGO, the library guy hanging from a bridge that had an x painted on his upper body, Beth’s blue hospital scrubs, Noah’s t-shirt and loads more).

Well, we see Beth get blood spatter on her upper body in Still, and we see the shoe with the white laces get a similar type of blood spatter in Slabtown. These could be trunk references.

How should we interpret it then? I don’t have anything groundbreaking on that. Just that it appears to be further evidence of an injured Beth somehow ending up in the trunk/back of a car. So basically, not anything I didn’t already believe in, but it certainly fits the symbolism language.

That’s pretty much what I have to add to the chess theory for now. As you can see, our conversations can meander and include things like headcanons. (I’d love to tell you we’re all symbolism business all the time, but that’s just not true. ;D). Anyway, hope this gets you all excited for what’s to come. It’s only a theory for now, but as you can see, there’s some pretty compelling evidence. I’ve said for a long time that the show is pointing toward some HUGE conflict in the future, and since Rick disappeared, I’ve known it would be the helicopter people. But until Nonny sent in that ask, I’d never considered that maybe the black and white theme might be pointing to it, too. Awesome!

[twdmusicboxmystery]

TWB 1x09/1x10: A Template for the Daryl/Carol Spinoff and a Bethyl Reunion

So, what did everyone think of TWB finale? I really enjoyed it. As I’ve been teasing, I had a HUGE lightbulb moment about this series and what it points to symbolically.  I know many in the fandom are asking what the point of this series is if we don’t see Rick. Well, I think I know. As I’ve said in Asks, I think plot-wise, we may still see Rick (or even Beth) in S2. The characters aren’t actually inside the CRM yet, but at least Hope and Silas are going there, so there will be more opportunity for them to run into Rick or Beth next season.

***As always, spoilers abound below for TWB 1x09 and 1x10. Don’t read until you’ve watched!***

So, what was my big lightbulb moment? Here it is:

Symbolically, this is foreshadowing what will happen with the Daryl/Carol spinoff, Rick, and how Daryl and Beth will reunite. The good news is, I’m more convinced than ever that she’s close. You’ll see why as we go along. The bad news is, we really probably won’t get a Bethyl reunion until the spinoff, which will come after S11. That’s a ways off. I was just praying we’d see her either in the flagship series or in TWB or FTWD before then, and then the news broke that she’ll be in the bonus episodes in flashbacks. I know that doesn’t prove she’s alive, but it was still kind of an answer to a prayer for me. Okay, so here goes.

This will be long, as I have a LOT of things to talk about here. Let’s establish names, first of all, as I’ll be referencing all these people. Iris and Hope’s dad is Leo. The woman with him (the same female scientist we’ve seen in the codas) is Lyla Belshaw. Felix’s boyfriend’s name is Will.

So, we finally met Will in ep 9. We see him in flashbacks. We see when he and Felix first met (which incidentally was when he first met Huck; that’s important). Then there’s a bedroom scene where they’ve obviously been in a relationship for a time. We see Felix talking to Will about how he really wants to go with Leo, but Leo has asked him to stay behind with Iris and Hope. Then we see Felix find out Will was going with Leo instead (which kinda crushed him) and then we see them all say goodbye.

This is a funny thing to say, but it was the bedroom scene that made it all click for me. Lol. It was because of the sleeve Felix wears on one arm. My fellow theorists tell me that they talked about this earlier in the season, but I either completely missed it, or it went in one ear and out the other. Hey, I’m human, too. ;D  

It reminded me of the plaid sleeve on Daryl’s coat when they went to Oceanside in 7x15 to take their guns. Remember that? 

At first, I thought he was missing the sleeve of his jacket. But then someone told me it was actually just that a different sleeve was sewn onto the jacket. As though someone had put it together piecemeal. Well, same thing, only this was black rather than plaid. Now, we’ve seen parallels between Felix and Daryl before, especially in the beginning. He talked about how he had a not-so-happy family background and specifically how his dad (like Daryl’s) was just not cool. He’s also like Daryl in that he’s kind of the badass protector of the group, right? So when I first noticed the sleeve, I went, “Okay, another Daryl parallel. Hmm.”

Then Will had an interesting line. As they got up, he said, “I’ll make pancakes if you made dinner later.” I went, “pancakes!” 

Cue first lightbulb moment. (Reminder: pancakes/Bisquik is a Beth/resurrection symbol.) Felix = Daryl; Will = Beth. That’s what these symbols are pointing to. And it actually makes perfect sense in a way I hadn’t really thought of before. Think about it: at the beginning of this series, we had Felix who was once in a romantic relationship with Will, but the two of them are separated. Felix hasn’t talked to, seen, or heard from Will in a long time, right? So, it’s a separation thing. You could even argue (and I think I did back in ep 1) that Felix keeping and wearing Will’s coat lines up with Daryl having Beth’s knife. At the end of ep 10, Felix runs into Will and they have a huge reunion. I’ll come back to that in more detail in a minute.

So here’s the thing: the more I thought about this, the more lightbulb moments I had. What do we know about Felix’s backstory, especially where Leo (Iris and Hope’s dad) is concerned? We know Felix and Leo became friends, Leo kind of adopted him, and Felix became part of the family, right? Well, that’s pretty much exactly what happened with Rick and Daryl. If Felix = Daryl and Will = Beth, Leo = Rick. Think about that. Leo left to join the CRM/helicopter group. Felix was left behind to protect his children. The biggest difference in TWD is that Rick didn’t go voluntarily, where Leo did. But other than that, same situation. Rick was taken into the CRM, and Daryl is now raising and protecting his children.

My next lightbulb moment came later in the episode. Felix gets hurt. He can’t walk very well. Huck says she has to leave him behind. Everyone is upset and saying goodbye and Felix hugs Huck and tells her he loves her. And of course this isn’t romantic love because, well, he’s gay. And THAT’S when it hit me.

From a Daryl standpoint, who is a woman Daryl loves, but not romantically? Carol. Gals, if Felix is Daryl and Will is Beth and Leo is Rick, then Huck is Carol. And think about it: if you set Iris and Hope and the boys aside for a minute, this entire story line is about the Daryl character (Felix) and the Carol character (Huck) taking off together to look for Leo. (Otherwise known as the Rick character.)

Boom. This entire thing is a foreshadow and parallel/proxy of the Carol/Daryl spinoff storyline. I guess you could say that my official theory now is that it’s new of Rick that will pull Daryl and Carol away from the community. They’ll go to find him. That’s why they’ll leave together after S11. But what happens here for Felix? On his journey to find Leo, he runs into Will, his love interest, who represents Beth.

So, Daryl will leave to find Rick, and somewhere along the way, he’ll finally find Beth and they’ll have their reunion.

Couple of thoughts/details here, just for clarification:

1) I’m not sure Huck’s exact arc here will be Carol’s. She’s a member of the CRM, which Carol is clearly not. And she really betrays Felix with all this. In the finale, the two of them get into full-on hand-to-hand combat, which I REALLY don’t see being the case with Daryl and Carol. But we also know Carol has betrayed TF in various ways over the years (Karen/David, letting Negan out of his cell, Connie) so it may be more about the type of character than about the exact arc.

2) I’m not sure how the kids fit in. Even though we’ve always thought Iris and Hope might be proxies to Beth and Maggie (and I still think that’s true) overall, I think they MORE represent Judith and RJ. Only because of Leo = Rick and they’re his kids. Now, obviously Iris and Hope are much older than Rick’s kids, and Judith and RJ aren’t going to take off to find Rick. So I don’t know if they’ll figure into this or not. It’s hard to say because in this show, Leo’s kids are with Felix. So will it be a matter of Judith and RJ being taken, or will he leave them behind? I honestly don’t know.

What I said above about Felix meeting Huck and Will at the same time? It just struck me as yet another parallel. Even though Daryl knew Carol before Beth (because S1), S2 was only days after s1. So really, he met them around the same time. And while he became besties with Carol, the romance lies with Beth. Same with Felix. Besties with Huck. In love with Will. Just saying.

Oh, and something @frangipanilove​ reminded me of: Tom Sawyer Theory. There have been tons of Mark Twain/Widow Douglas/Tom Sawyer references around Carol. Now this character’s name is Huck, and it’s a nickname that comes from Huckleberry Finn because she was found on a raft.

Okay, moving on. Um…let’s talk Percy for a minute.

Remember that I said last week he was a major Beth proxy, because he seems to have staggered off, wounded, and everyone assumes he’s dead, but there was no body.

In this episode, Elton finds him and guess what? He’s been shot. So in keeping with the Beth parallel (no body, staggered away, presumed dead) he was also shot, not stabbed. Not in the head, of course, but in the chest/shoulder. But it was important for Elton to find that because it made him realize Silas didn’t do it. Silas didn’t have a gun. 

Another thing I found interesting is that Elton was sure Percy would die. His hallucination of Percy kept saying, “you know I’m going to die, right? I’m not going to survive.” And things like that. But low and behold, Percy actually lives. So, yet another way to round out the Beth parallel. Got shot. Staggered away. No one correctly understood what actually happened there. But he runs into someone who helps him and saves him. And, he lives.

So then Elton and Percy find Silas. And this was super cool from a TD standpoint as well. Silas accidentally starts a fire. The smoke from it, while less, looks EXACTLY like the smoke from the moonshine shack in Still. (Ah foreshadows.) Elton sees the smoke and follows it, hoping to find Silas, which he does.

And here’s where, again, it gets interesting. They have a small but sweet reunion. Elton runs up and hugs Silas really tight and says that he found him and also that he brought Silas’s bag and that he found his walkman and headphones in the road. 

It was the way he said that that caught my attention. He found them in the road. Last week, we totally compared the headphones to the music box, but I didn’t think about the fact that he dropped them in the middle of the road. I didn’t think to compare them to Daryl finding the green jasper in the middle of the road. But Elton found Silas’s MUSICAL DEVICE in the middle of the road and brought it back to him. Also, Rock in the Road story/theory. And @wdway​ pointed out Daryl’s line to Beth in Alone: “Go up the road a ways; I’ll meet you there.”

So, think about this. We have this rock-in-the-road reference, and a reunion between Elton and Silas. In the same episode, we see Felix, out on the road, walking through the woods, stumble onto his romantic partner, who he hasn’t seen in a LONG time. They hug, have a reunion, both are crying, and Will cries out, “I thought you were dead.” 

Let’s talk about Leo, Iris and Hope’s dad. In terms of the plot, I actually have a lot of questions, but I suppose that’s the point. In ep 10, we have lots of scenes of Iris and Hope’s dad. The woman from the codas, Lyla is in them, too. She and Leo are in a romantic relationship. But it’s obvious that she’s a plant by the CRM and that she’s feeding them information. I wasn’t sure if these scenes were meant to be present day, or flashbacks. I THINK they’re present day. So, he’s actually fine and not really in any danger.

We were right in thinking that Hope is the asset. In this episode, they say they just want her for her smarts, to help her father in his research. To some extent, it’s like she’s Eugene for this show (except for real, lol). Her dad says of her at one point, “maybe she’ll save the world.” Which feels like a foreshadowing. So maybe she really will find the cure or something. We’re also wondering if there’s something more they aren’t telling us. Like some sort of immunity thing. But they haven’t said anything like that in this episode.

The other reason I’m not sure about what Hope’s role will be is that she is obviously a proxy for Beth on her own. (In one flashback, everyone is eating dinner together and she says, “I made the carrots.” So yeah, self-proclaimed Beth proxy.) Carrot Theory Here.

So maybe she’ll find the cure and save the world. Or maybe all these characters will die at the end and she’s just functioning as a Beth proxy. Beth isn’t the super-smart Eugene type that will save the world in that way, but I do think the fact that Hope is the “asset” and the CRM wants her is probably a proxy for Beth in some way. Just not sure how it will play out.

So, back to the dad. In these Leo scenes, it’s obvious that he’s suspicious about things having to do with the CRM. He says that he recognizes they do good things, but he’s suspicious about the military. He says that Will’s scouting mission should have been back days ago. (Yes, Felix’s Will.) But he’s not. And Lyla just passes it off as “lots of things can happen that might have delayed him.”

So, I wasn’t sure if Will’s group, which we only see for a few seconds at the end, is part of the CRM and has just been delayed in returning, or if they’re purposely not returning because they know what the CRM did to the people at the university and have become a rebel group. My first impression was that they were rebels, hanging out in the forest, but they honestly don’t tell us much, here.

Well, that was because, the first time through, I missed the coda at the end of episode 9. You guys gotta see this shot! What happens is basically that we see Will running. He trips and falls by this walker, stares at it a moment, and then jumps up to run again. We see CRM soldiers running after him. So, that confirms that he’s now a rebel. Hiding from and rebelling against the CRM because he saw what they did at the University.

And the only reason that even matters is that we’ve conjectured that Beth might be leading a rebel group against the CRM. This is a confirmation of that theory (because Will = Beth).

But look at this shot:

It’s a blond walker who’s literally rising from her grave. If that’s not confirmation that Will = Beth, I don’t know what is.

Oh, let’s go back to Silas for a minute. I said last week that he might be headed toward Beth, right? Yeah, I still think he might be. So, after Elton, Percy, and Silas reunite, Silas is happy to know that he didn’t kill Tony or hurt Percy. Huck did. But he and Elton want to go find the girls and tell them about Huck. Before they can, the CRM soldiers arrive. They probably followed Silas’s smoke, and also at one point Percy talked to Huck, very briefly on the walkie on an open channel. 

So, the CRM knows they’re around and is looking for them. They try to sneak away, and come to a chain-lined fence with a locked gate. They unlock it to go through, but Percy is still bleeding a lot from his GSW. He tells them to leave him behind because he’s slowing them down and the dripping blood will be a trail right to them.

Silas makes a choice to save his friends. He pushes them through the gate and turns himself into the CRM, even cutting his hand to account for the dripping blood. He locks it so they can’t come back in and says, “go save Iris.” The CRM does take him into custody and Elton and Percy get away. So again, if Rick and Beth are inside the organization somewhere, he really could run into them.

What this really reminded me of was Sasha and Rosita. Major parallel there. Which, sadly, makes me wonder if Silas will die next season. A proxy, just as Sasha was. I thought it was interesting that Silas cut his hand across the palm. It’s a Christic wound and he sacrificed himself for his friends. But he’s also inside the CRM now, which means he could potentially run into Rick or Beth next season.

I wrote down other, smaller symbols. Things we always talk about like dialogue and background symbols. There’s a part where Elton kills some walkers and a bright red leaf flies across the screen. One of our red objects, I think. And that’s while he’s saving Percy, who should have died, but lived. Percy calls Elton Corduroy at one point, which is a bear reference.

Oh! Here’s an interesting one, though it’s not directly related to Beth. At one point, when Felix gets hurt, he and the ladies (Hope, Iris, Huck) go to a particular building. I believe it used to be a retirement home, though it honestly doesn’t look medical at all. More like a manor house. Like Hilltop, only in major disrepair. When they go in, Iris says, “This place feels haunted.” And Hope says, “the whole world is haunted.” 

That’s a shockingly exact echo of Tyreese saying that to Carol in 4x14. He said, “the whole world is haunted now.” It’s so lovely and sad, it was always one of my favorite lines. So, I sat and thought about what the parallel is supposed to be. 

I think it may be about the truth coming out. Because the biggest thing about 4x14 was Lizzie and Mica’s deaths, but nothing happened in this episode to really mirror that. No one died. But Carol also told Ty the truth about her and how she’d killed Karen. And remember that Huck is the Carol character. Here, they all find out who Huck really is and what she’s doing. It’s like, deceptions fall away and the truth is revealed. So yeah, not really a TD thing, but I thought that was super interesting.

One other thing: at one point, Hope and Huck run into walkers on the road and have to fight them. Hope has Felix’s gun, but she drops it. They’re standing on a bridge (Bridge Theory) but it’s not a huge bridge or an overpass. It’s one of those little wooden bridges over a pathetic little stream. Like, literally four feet down and they could jump off the bridge without being hurt, right? Well, when Hope dropped the gun (because she’s fighting a walker) and it slid down off the bridge and into the stream.

Visually, it reminded me a lot of when Beth kicked the gun down the elevator shaft in Coda. So I watched closely to see if they would retrieve it. They didn’t. Huck even said something like “well, the pistol is gone, so let’s just keep going.” And I had to laugh at that. Not realistic at all. The pistol isn’t gone. It’s right there. They just had to jump down and get it. No way the little bit of water would have been enough to carry a metal gun away. So yeah, I feel like that was a purposeful parallel to Beth at Grady.

That’s most of the big stuff. My overall theory, following the template TWB is laying out for us is this: Daryl and Carol will take off together after S11, either because they have word of Rick or something to do with the kids. Just as Will is inside the CRM with Leo, Beth is inside the CRM with Rick. Somewhere on that journey, Daryl will run into Beth on the road. What happens next season in TWB will give us a better idea of what will happen where Rick is concerned in the story. But this is definitely a foreshadow of the spinoff and how Daryl and Beth will reunite.

And now, with word of Emily being in the bonus episodes, even if they’re just flashbacks, it makes me think we’ll see her in the second season of TWB. The flashbacks are priming the audience for her true return. I literally wrote the above to @wdway​ and @frangipanilove​ on Friday morning. Friday afternoon, news of Emily being in the bonus episodes broke. For me, it was just everything falling perfectly into place.

Thoughts?

[twdmusicboxmystery]

TWDTWB 1x07: Truth or Dare

Okay, let's talk about TWB, ep 8. We saw a time of interesting symbols in this episode.

First, we see Huck. She's on her own, scouting ahead. She sees some walkers walking by on an overpass. So, a miniature bridge of sorts. She saw one walker that had a backpack that she wanted to raid for supplies. This walker to me was that it was wearing a dark red jacket. We've seen this symbol pretty often lately. Clothing the color of the cloak in Beth’s cell.

Huck took some boots off the walker. That's important because of the missing foot/shoe symbolism but also @frangipanilove​ has done quite a few posts about how the trunk and boot symbols are similar. It all points to Beth being left in the trunk of the car.

Huck also finds a pin on this walker. This made my jaw drop. It turned out to be the insignia of the Marines, which Huck has a tie to. But what really struck me about it was the bird on top. Look at this. We saw this exact bird in Still and in a shot with Beth.

My fellow theorists and I are always going back and forth about whether this is a Phoenix or Thunderbird or an eagle or something else. Given the blue field, stars, and red banner, I always wondered if it was some sort of American patriotic thing, but maybe this picture represents the marines. Either way, the fact is, we can tie it directly to Beth. Also keep in mind that the Marines are all about water.

They drink Mountain Dew in this episode. @wdway​ reminded me that we saw a Mountain Dew bottle in Still with Beth and Daryl. I also thought they treated the Mountain Dew in this episode a lot like it was alcohol or moonshine. They talked about how long it had been since that had it and made yum noises, saying it was so good, etc.

In one of Huck’s flashbacks, she's in a bar. They have a dart game, and there's a jukebox. All Bethyl symbols.

Later in the episode, Tony has a flask, so we do see some alcohol. And the kids play a drinking game. It’s truth or dare, which is a little different than “I never,” but still. It's a drinking game.

There's definitely an art theme. Iris talks about the Louvre and then Percy sets up a little art room for her. I'll come back to that in a minute.

There’s a dark tunnel moment, when they go in looking for the fuel. (Dark Tunnel Symbolism).

In Huck’s flashback, she and her fellow Marines use thermal vision to discern which of the people in front of them are walkers in which are alive. I thought that was interesting in and of itself, but the thing that jumped out at me is that the walkers, who were obviously cold because they're dead, were blue. Kind of a blues clue as @frangipanilove​ would say.

When Hope and Huck were up on the roof, the stars were very bright and obvious. Maybe I’m reading too much into it, but it almost felt like an emphasis on the stars to me.

They encounter a guy in the basement who takes Hope prisoner. Lots of important background symbols in this scene. Lots of yellow, which reminded me of the basement of Grady when Beth and Noah try to escape. 

There were blue coolers, and even a fire extinguisher sign, which we’ve often seen in the background of scenes tied to Beth.

We also get a clear shot of Huck’s watch here. It’s hard to see, but I think it matches the grandfather clock in Still. Second hand between the 10 and the 11 (so perhaps at minute 52 or 53) and hour hand on the 3. 

They also had a queen of hearts theme. So, it's the poker queen theme. I won't go too much into that, except to say that it was present.

Then Iris went to meet Percy and he'd set up the back of the truck as though it were the Louvre, so she could look at the art. There were actually quite a few things that stood out to us here. We looked into several of the paintings.

One that @wdway​ pointed out is this famous painting set during the French Revolution called “Liberty Leading the People.” 

We like the idea that it's a revolution being led by a woman. Kind of interesting, no? We’re hoping the woman here Symbolizes Beth rather than Iris, but we'll see. The two books she looks at seem to be fictional, but when I looked up the one about the great masters of art, Caravaggio was always listed as one of them. So, another possible tie to Grady.

Furthermore, Iris falls asleep under the art setup and we see her wake up. This is pretty much an altar or shrine to all things art, and the way she’s laid out, rather than curled up, kinda looks like a Snow White pose. So, we’re thinking this is definitely a resurrection symbol. Especially as it happens under the Mona Lisa (arguably the most famous painting/woman in art) and the painting of Lady Liberty leading a revolution.

And hey, I’ll grant you that, normally, I would say this all represents Iris, and it might in some way. But we already know TWB is a limited, 2 season event. Then it will be done. That doesn’t necessarily mean all the characters will die or anything, but I can’t see them doing anything quite this important, either. Especially given that they’re still teenagers.

I think this represents a revolution against the CRM led by some woman. Three guesses who I think that woman will be, and the first two don’t count.😉

Also, the place they’re staying at is apparently a country club with a pool, as evidenced by this sign that the camera focuses on for several seconds. So more ties to Still and to water in general. (Also remember that in last week’s episode of Fear, Sherry’s group was hanging out in a dry, vacant public pool. Ties and parallels, my friends. 😉)

That's most of the symbolic stuff. We found out some interesting things in this episode, plot-wise. They found some encrypted data from the CRM. I'm definitely curious to find out what that's all about. The episode ended with Tony dying, Percy disappearing, and it looks like Silas might've killed him.

Most of us agree that that's probably not what happened. Or at least there's more to it. It seems a little too obvious that they're trying to make us believe Silas is a killer. I don't think he is. Personally, I feel like Percy is the Lizzie of this situation. But again, we'll just have to wait and see.

Thoughts?