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frankingsteinery · 20 days ago

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victor is one of the most psychotic characters i have ever read in literature and it all feels both surprisingly accurate and relatable given the time period; i have been meaning to make a proper analysis on victor's psychotic symptoms for awhile now, but have, ironically, been delayed due to my own psychotic symptoms, so here's more of an informal list--

i'll be breaking down victor's: 1. negative symptoms (loss of functioning)

2. positive symptoms (hallucinations)

3. disorganized thinking and speech/behavior

victor's psychotic symptoms, as well as his initial psychotic break during the creation of the OG creature, are brought upon by the stressors of creating the creature(s), both before, during and after the creation process. the first of these symptoms were negative symptoms.

negative symptoms of psychosis are a loss (thus--"negative") or reduction of normal functioning, and can include restricted emotional expression, lack of speech or monotone speech, difficulty thinking, reduced motivation and/or desire to initiate activities, reduced socialization and social withdrawal, and an inability or decreased ability to experience pleasure. they most commonly occur in the prodromal (initial) phase before the acute phase (characterized by hallucinations, delusions, and confused thinking) and in the recovery phase, which is true of victor's case.

andehonia (lack of pleasure):

"...but I did not watch the blossom or the expanding leaves—sights which before always yielded me supreme delight, so deeply was I engrossed in my occupation... But my enthusiasm was checked by my anxiety... I became nervous to a most painful degree" (paranoia, too) -- Vol I, Chapter III

"It was a most beautiful season; never did the fields bestow a more plentiful harvest, or the vines yield a more luxuriant vintage: but my eyes were insensible to the charms of nature" -- Vol I, Chapter III (1818)

"By very slow degrees, and with frequent relapses, that alarmed and grieved my friend, I recovered. I remember the first time I became capable of observing outward objects with any kind of pleasure..." -- Vol I, Chapter IV (1818)

asociality (social withdrawal) & alogia (impoverished speech):

"And the same feelings which made me neglect the scenes around me caused me also to forget those friends who were so many miles absent, and whom I had not seen for so long a time. I knew my silence disquieted them..." Vol I, Chapter III (1818)

"Study had before secluded me from the intercourse of my fellow-creatures, and rendered me unsocial..." -- Vol I, Chapter V (1818)

"This state of mind preyed upon my health, which had entirely recovered from the first shock it had sustained. I shunned the face of man; all sound of joy or complacency was torture to me; solitude was my only consolation—deep, dark, death-like solitude." -- Vol II, Chapter I (1818)

additionally, and in general, victor becomes incapable of initiating activities (avolition) while being cared for by henry at ingolstadt.

victor hallucinates several times throughout the novel. these hallucinations are almost exclusively visual, and primarily of the creature:

“'Do not ask me,” cried I, putting my hands before my eyes, for I thought I saw the dreaded spectre glide into the room; “he can tell.—Oh, save me! save me!” I imagined that the monster seized me; I struggled furiously, and fell down in a fit." -- Vol I, Chapter IV (1818)

"The form of the monster on whom I had bestowed existence was for ever before my eyes, and I raved incessantly concerning him..." -- Vol I, Chapter IV (1818)

"I saw around me nothing but a dense and frightful darkness, penetrated by no light but the glimmer of two eyes that glared upon me. Sometimes they were the expressive eyes of Henry, languishing in death, the dark orbs nearly covered by the lids, and the long black lashes that fringed them; sometimes it was the watery clouded eyes of the monster, as I first saw them in my chamber at Ingolstadt..." -- Vol II, Chapter IV (1818)

"All pleasures of earth and sky passed before me like a dream, and that thought only had to me the reality of life. Can you wonder, that sometimes a kind of insanity possessed me, or that I saw continually about me a multitude of filthy animals inflicting on me incessant torture, that often extorted screams and bitter groans?" -- Vol II, Chapter IX (1818)

"Sometimes I entreated my attendants to assist me in the destruction of the fiend by whom I was tormented; and, at others, I felt the fingers of the monster already grasping my neck, and screamed aloud with agony and terror." -- Vol III, Chapter IV (1818)

beyond that, victor's positive symptoms also include delusions of guilt, grandeur and persecution. however, this is complex enough that it warrants its own separate post. for another time... (edit: find it here)

victor also experiences disorganized behavior, behaviors that are inconsistent, contradictory, or don't fit the situation; for victor, the most obvious of which is catatonia, a symptom of psychosis characterized by abnormal movements, behaviors, and withdrawal. he demonstrates both akinetic (staying still, appearing unresponsive, staring blankly, lack of speech) and excited/hyperkinetic (moving in a pointless/repetitive way, appearing agitated or delirious, pacing, etc) catatonia.

"Unable to endure the aspect of the being I had created, I rushed out of the room, and continued a long time traversing my bed-chamber, unable to compose my mind to sleep...I took refuge in the court-yard belonging to the house which I inhabited; where I remained during the rest of the night, walking up and down in the greatest agitation, listening attentively, catching and fearing each sound as if it were to announce the approach of the demoniacal corpse to which I had so miserably given life." -- Vol I, Chapter IV (1818)

"...my spirits became unequal; I grew restless and nervous. Every moment I feared to meet my persecutor. Sometimes I sat with my eyes fixed on the ground, fearing to raise them lest they should encounter the object which I so much dreaded to behold." -- Vol II, Chapter II (1818)

he also displays inappropriate/unusual reactions, another example of disorganized behavior:

"I was unable to contain myself. It was not joy only that possessed me; I felt my flesh tingle with excess of sensitiveness, and my pulse beat rapidly. I was unable to remain for a single instant in the same place; I jumped over the chairs, clapped my hands, and laughed aloud... my loud, unrestrained, heartless laughter, frightened and astonished [Clerval]" -- Vol I, Chapter IV (1818)

victor shows disorganized speech through his "ravings" several times and there's quite a few examples of this but i can't be bothered to pull more quotes. here's just one:

"A fever succeeded this. I lay for two months on the point of death: my ravings, as I afterwards heard, were frightful; I called myself the murderer of William, of Justine, and of Clerval." -- Vol III, Chapter IV (1818)

as a side-note, in the 1800s, the term "fever" was used loosely in comparison to its modern definition, and the health of the mind and body was often viewed as interconnected--thus victor's "fevers" after periods of high stress that triggered psychosis—while being nursed back to health by henry, during his time in prison, etc.—could easily be viewed as mental illness rather than an actual physical sickness, or some combination thereof.

lastly, victor experiences disorganized thinking, which includes racing thoughts, flight of ideas, confusion, trouble keeping track of thoughts, difficulty concentrating, time processing disturbances, etc.

in general, victor experiences dream-like perceptions that leads to difficulty being present, concentrating, and processing reality, what he himself refers to as “strange thoughts” (Vol II, Chapter IX, 1818). for example:

“All pleasures of earth and sky passed before me like a dream, and that thought only had to me the reality of life.” – Vol II, Chapter IX (1818)

additionally, victor is known to lose time and “awaken to understanding” weeks or months later several times:

“What then became of me? I know not; I lost sensation, and chains and darkness were the only objects that pressed upon me…by degrees I gained a clear conception of my miseries and situation, and was then released from my prison. For they had called me mad; and during many months, as I understood, a solitary cell had been my habitation.” – Vol II, Chapter VI (1818)

“But I was doomed to live; and, in two months, found myself as awaking from a dream, in a prison…It was morning, I remember, when I thus awoke to understanding: I had forgotten the particulars of what had happened, and only felt as if some great misfortune had suddenly overwhelmed me.” — Vol II, Chapter IV (1818)

“I seemed to have lost all soul or sensation but for this one pursuit. It was indeed but a passing trance, that only made me feel with renewed acuteness so soon as, the unnatural stimulus ceasing to operate, I had returned to my old habits.” — Vol I, Chapter III

he also demonstrates flight of ideas, a thought disorder that involves rapid shifting of thoughts that are expressed in language. people with flight of ideas may speak quickly and jump between ideas that are not connected in a way that is difficult to follow, illogical, or nonsensical. this occurs just before alphonse visits him in prison:

“I know not by what chain of thought the idea presented itself, but it instantly darted into my mind that the murderer had come to mock at my misery, and taunt me with the death of Clerval, as a new incitement for me to comply with his hellish desires… “Oh! take him away! I cannot see him; for God’s sake, do not let him enter!’” — Vol III, Chapter IV

to which mr. kirwin “regards [victor] with a troubled countenance” in response.

aaand that's a wrap.

there's no real point to all this i just wanted to outline most of his symptoms so i could have it all in one place. i'll probably expand on this sometime with more actual thoughts and ideas of substance as well as building on the implications of a reading of frankenstein where victor experiences psychosis (and how actually acknowledging victor's mental illness forces a much more sympathetic interpretation of victor... which is why people tend to talk around it). do with this what you will!

#rob.txt #frankenstein #victor frankenstein #gothic lit #tw psychosis #analysis #this doesnt touch on all i wnated to #and its nowhere near the depth i wanted it to be. just shallow ramblings #but god ive already been at it for 3 hours #good enough. for now.

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away-ward · 1 year ago

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Long post!

1. This might be an unpopular opinion, but i actually like that alex fought in the train with emmy because she was jealous of em. + alex was probably jealous of emmy too because alex and aydin was seduced by em. A big part of the sex in the BC shower and the train was because em was the one doing the talking and seducing and going after what she wants, teasing the men and women there, no? Not alex, and what was alex known for? Exactly this but even she (and probably his ex fiance and othe rhigh profile women) couldnt get aydin in bed together after everything, but this woman aydin just met for a couple of days is serving up his fantasy and contributed to him being pleasured? In alex's mind, she was pronably angry af at emmy, even angrier when she wanted to touch her too, and unlike rika and banks or even kai, it was not business hour, she really did found emmy attractive and wanna get on with her, so she probably thought "ok if i wanna fuck her, why wont aydin?" So instead of seeing this scene as only emmy pleasuring alex, it also means that theres alex and aydin who were always getting what they want and dominating the conversation or sex, seducing people left and right, but with emmy in their equation, THEY were the one who became charmed, and yes, alex didnt like that because em got aydins attention. I'm pretty sure if alex was not in the picture, or will, aydin would've wanted emmy ☠️

2. Unlike you guys, i never thought that alex ever thought she owned will *like that*. The most extreme is just her protectiveness of her best friend and family, which throughout the whole series every woman and man did the same thing, they're physically and emotionally intimate with each other, they casually become possessive over one another, doesnt matter if it siblings, friends, partners etc, and we can see, even that stoic doofus michael was protective of emmy when martin came near her later on at the end of nightfall. +Em was never their friend, and they dont do casual for best friends and family, so how were they supposed to react to and approach her knowing she put them in jail without caring to confess before? A bit entitled for emmy and us to ask for more from them, no? But i can totally see why it's understandable in emmy's pov, she could've seen the whole situation differently just like how will and alex misunderstood emmy's connection with aydin. But whether or not aydin wnated em like how alex and em wnated each other in the train, i think it could be possible, and add to the flames of anger for will and alex (which was drama and messy and at this point, anything that put will alex a peg down, i'm all up for it, lmao, im a messy person 🤣🤞) but we'll never know now how that'll play out in the future. And like i said, this was probably the biggest reason why alex was mad, because aydin wanted em, and em couldve had aydin even without doing much (or even if she might not be interested in aydin herself).

3. I feel like in this book because emmy was the more dominant one, i actually dont see it as her pleasuring alex was something bad or megative, the way we look and frame these scenes in outr minds play a big part to how much we accept it (again probably just my unpopular opinion), because in my mind, that scene was an empowering move for emory, because she gets what she wants, while her man was watching, and it shows that people wants her and wants to look at her too. Women who gives is just as empowering as those who gets back, idk why a lot of you anons and asks always have this implication that being served or pleasure is the only way for empowerment for em, because that thought alone is weird, but maybe it's just me who didnt find your questions and answers kinda ok? Idk, emmy was doing what she wants and maybe it was ugly right, but hey who cares? Not emmy, because the one who was pridefully trying to prove a point to their friends by dragging the other down was alex, not emory (in fact emory had a history of not giving a fuck about what people think of her, so do you really think she would start now?), so even if alex play this game, emmy was not losing anything even out of pride, because after eveyrthing had happened, alex realised that she was the one embarrassingly playing this winning game alone. This was how iinterpreted the bridal gown scene with alex and emmy too, that alex felt guilty towards emmy because the game was one-sided. I remember that in the train, when emmy called her out when alex said em didnt know how to sacrifice lke her, alex couldnt verbally fight back because m was right, alex just didnt want to understand her out of her shallow pride. She fought her physically, but it should how kinda dumb alex was in that moment, Which also goes to show how big-hearted and mature emmy was about the whole situation. Emmy had to get the short end of the stick again, but hey, at leats the characterisation was consistent 🤣☠️😭 (im so sorry emmy for this pun)

4. Now, Could all of these scenes be handled better? Of course, but with characters as immature and wrongly and immaturely loud (most of the time) as will and alex, always talking faster than they think because they do whatever they "feel" like and that is comsidered as the benchmark of "freedom" instead of irrationality like how we and emmy saw it, do you think a rational comversation can happen in the midst of chaos? With will and alex? 🤣 no fucking way, hahaha! I have to laugh when i see someone recommending this because as much as thats OUR wish fulfilment, we dont always get what we want and in this case, a mature and understanding will who was not hurting and able to talk without wanting to just destroy eveyrthing. a lot of dn scenes had more than one meaning, and i dont think all these scenes you guys have mentioned were only catering to one pov, because clearly like mine, it was beyond just emmy giving into alex, but also everyone giving into each other. A scene where emmy getting pleasured by being submissive most likely wont happen because SHE was the one who always seduce and dominate people, and thats how most dominant women gets pleasured, even in real life or in WLW dominant relationships, by dominating others no matter their pride or unjust anger. Idk why we're surprised here and it was not also seen in a different pov like it was something good that a dominating woman gets what she wants, even when her pride was thrown out of the window. Maybe because ikm queer so thats why i can understand this scene better. The only thing that i fucking hated about this scene is the fact that will would let em fuck alex, but not aydin. If they"re all queer, then why would there be a difference between em getting pleasured by and for aydin any different than with alex? This can come off as queer or WLW fetish instead. The same goes when em was ok when will hooked up with damon, but not when he was with alex? Borderline queer fetishes are here in these scenes and its implication, not anywhere else as far as i can catch them by now. But i can also understand how people get angry at alex unlike damon because damon made it clear that he wasnt will's potential love interest, unlike alex who always look like she might snatch will from emmy especially in emmy's povs.

5. Also another interesting point to add is the horsemen, banks and emmy were very prideful people about their weaknesses unlike rika, winter and alex (and even will to some point), they just never talk about their pain or hardship, and its affecting their relationship with others, so something just has to give for these prideful people to talk about it or so something about their weaknesses in order to bridge the gap between them and everyone else, and the classic fashion for pd was through shocking and horrid sex scenes (physical intimacy) imstead of honest talk (verbal intimacy). In that train, emmy finally submit to them all and accepting their all, and them too submitting to her, and for someone who took nearly 10 years to give in like emmy, i think the train scene was shocking, but the impact of it, if you relatively consider about her 10 years of absence, it doesnt really NOT make sense. I feel like we're getting angry at the scene because out of pride as the readers who we want our wants catered to us, we do not want to lose against alex in this game of cat and mouse, but we're not emmy guys, this was how SHE solves her problem, and she was TIRED OF BLEEDING. She was not ashamed of dominating and playing the field too. Something has to give. It's clear that even will thinks like that and even alex later on was more subdued with her behaviour when she met em again in that bridal gown scene, because alex was the one actually losing, not emmy. It's a win fo them but alex, as a friend doing all of that, at what cost? She lost.

6. They cant be like that forever, especially when em wanted to be with will, and is now more accepting to the idea of fitting in with the horsemen and their wives (because she gets to trust and love herself more now, and more inclined to work with his family instead of self-sabotaging herself thinking she wasnt enough to keep up with all of his "amazing life" and him too with everything that is her), and everyone then with emmy because now they know she's with them for life. She's theirs now in ther little cult family with that little cult family crest of a chocker and rongs. Because the ball was almost always in her court then, even in high school, except for damon, no one was against her, and even later damon slowly warmed up to her, but she just never threw it their way and thats also why will couldnt bring her anywhere even in the mask giving scene because he thought she didnt want this lifestyle. Unlike rika in corrupt who already admitted to want to be like them and join this hell shit family. We might not like her to be in this shitty family, but emmy like it, likes them, never hated them, and finally found enough time and love for herself to want to admit to be apart of them, and them with her. Her going to SF and ditching will would be some readers' wish fulfilment but was nit what emmy would wnated for her life. The fact that she went back home after the horsemen went to jail, and would worry when his brother always causes trouble for them since high school showed that in a corner in he rheart where she lets herself be honest, emory did care about will and the horsemen, even if her mouth says no and her actions move backwards.

7. It's all very layered i think, it wasnt as easy as "oh emmy was pleasuring alex and thats not what we want evn though thats what emmy wants", "lf the horsemen were shit to her for no reason" etc etc. like you all got your points here and there, and im adding this ask to add my pov too, +and i believe some of these opinions were already discussed in your older posts about michael and kai's response towards emmy in the train, right? but do let me know if what i said makes sense, because it made sense to me but it might not to others. Sometimes what we want from an author might not fit into our narrative because we kinda already have something in our mind that we want from themand we're fixated on it, and i feel like this is the case for people reading nightfall especially, but this doesnt mean it's good or bad, it just impacts how we read the story. However i also agree that these atrocities could've been done better and pd should really get their shit together and write a better story. It's not a simple series with a black or white pov, i feel like a lot scenes could kean different, IF you're willing to engage yourself in a different pov which a lot of you guys might mot simply because what you guys wnat is nkt guven here, just some two cents from me. I believe a discussion can still be made though, only after considering many povs without limiting an option because lets say "we dont want aydin alex here" "oh this could be a different plot". I liked your "No Apologies" fic but i dont think someone as daring to make shitty turn around arc like pd would go for your tamer plot for both will and emmy, something MORE had to happen, so it was a good fic, but i cannot ever see these fanfic characterisations of emmy by you happening in PD's writing or plot. The willemmy in your fics were always a bit mellow than in pd's, and i feel like it's because it's usually lacking in weird and shocking actions or words that were always present in pd's works. It's canon and fanfics for a reason, i enjoy them both, but for different reasons. They serve their purpose between author's voice and fan works.

Anyway, It's just a goofy fun series to not be taken too seriously at the end of the day, and like your older posts, i agree, some things might make sense, some thing might not, but i like the discussion going on for it though, because the way you guys interpret this series was woahh, very different than me and thats ok. It's because these characters who always feel everything deeply, i feel like we also get carried away with them, the irony! Sorry if this post is too much, or if i come off as harsh, i was just trying yo put two and two together, putting aside feelings and making one scene made semse with the other. Idk if that worked or not.

Hey! Thanks for taking the time to send this in. It was actually very refreshing to get.

but i actually like that alex fought in the train with emmy because she was jealous of em. + alex was probably jealous of emmy too because alex and aydin was seduced by em.

Not wholly unpopular. This idea as a reason for Alex and Em’s back and forth, specifically on the train, has been bought up before. I believe their idea was that Alex felt inferior to Em, but I’d have to check.

This woman aydin just met for a couple of days is serving up his fantasy and contributed to him being pleasured? In alex’s mind, she was pronably angry af at emmy

I personally never felt that Aydin sincerely wanted Em. My interpretation was always that he saw her as being the same as him, and wanted to use her to hurt Will like Alex had hurt him. Not that he had ill-will for Em, but she was never his focus. From what I gathered, he only ever wanted Alex. And I can’t really comment about whether he would have wanted her if things were different, but it’s open to interpretation.

, i never thought that alex ever thought she owned will *like that*.

What I said in that previous post (if I'm thinking of the right one from earlier) probably came out wrong. I didn’t mean that Alex felt Will’s was hers, in that she was possessive over him, but more like you said – hers to protect. Will was her reflection; they were one and the same. They weren’t in love, but they were more than friends (thinking of it from their perspective).

Em was never their friend, and they dont do casual for best friends and family, so how were they supposed to react to and approach her knowing she put them in jail without caring to confess before? A bit entitled for emmy and us to ask for more from them, no?

I’ve expressed similar thoughts in the past. I think it’s important to remember (but also easy to forget) that, one: unreliable narrators very much exist, and two: every character is working with different information. From the past to the present, the reader is the only one with all the pieces as we go.

Even I get lost in the thought of how things should have gone because I’ve gone over this so many times, but you’re bringing up very good points.

Because in my mind, that scene was an empowering move for emory, because she gets what she wants, while her man was watching, and it shows that people wants her and wants to look at her too.

This is a fair way to look at the situation. I think for myself, I’ve always had an issue with this scene because I didn’t see the build-up to Alex and Emmy. For me, Emmy saying she wanted Alex came out of nowhere. I also didn’t understand how they became such good friends after spending one night drinking together.

I have a post where I go into my thoughts on Alex as a character. I don’t think her role within the story was bad. Unlike some, I don’t wish Alex never existed (though I do understand why people feel that way, and occasionally think the things they have to say are funny. What can I say, I think angry rants can be funny. Sue me.). But I get irritated with the way Alex is written.

So, because of those things, I don’t understand why Emmy wants Alex. I do get that Emmy is finally going after what she wants and on her terms, which great for her, but as for why it’s Alex? That I don’t get.

A lot of Anons do have a problem with Emmy always being the one to give and bend. So, to see her dominating Alex, who has recently said and done some pretty nasty things to Emory personally, doesn’t feel good. Even if Alex was acting out of jealousy, she still took the same actions.

This was how iinterpreted the bridal gown scene with alex and emmy too, that alex felt guilty towards emmy because the game was one-sided.

You know, it’s been awhile since I read this scene, and I was working from memory, which admittedly could be faulty. It could be that Alex did express some guilt over the one-sided game she was playing. I do remember her apologizing, but I also remember Emory stopping her, which is what I was pulling from. The conclusion is that Emory is always the one being the bigger person when Alex rightfully owes her an apology.

I think readers get mad that PD didn’t want Alex to apologize?

Which also goes to show how big-hearted and mature emmy was about the whole situation. Emmy had to get the short end of the stick again, but hey, at least the characterization was consistent

Yeah, exactly this.

Of course, but with characters as immature and wrongly and immaturely loud (most of the time) as will and alex, always talking faster than they think because they do whatever they "feel" like and that is comsidered as the benchmark of "freedom" instead of irrationality like how we and emmy saw it, do you think a rational comversation can happen in the midst of chaos?

This is my general feelings towards the idea of the characters “just talking.” Like… even if they were to communicate, it probably wouldn’t do anything because they’re all just talking faster than they think (what a great way to phrase that!).

Because as much as that’s OUR wish fulfilment

It really is. Because of the general discourse on tumblr, sometimes I think that readers have forgotten that characters aren’t always going to do things the “right” way or a way that makes us feel good. For me, when a character behaves in a way that doesn’t make sense, it can draw out my curiosity. Why did they do that? What’s making them act this irrational way? Can I explain it? And even if the explanation is messy, there’s still something to it, I think.

and i dont think all these scenes you guys have mentioned were only catering to one pov, because clearly like mine, it was beyond just emmy giving into alex, but also everyone giving into each other.

Like Will said, Emmy was finally going over the cliff with them. And they were seeing what she was made of.

It was not also seen in a different pov like it was something good that a dominating woman gets what she wants, even when her pride was thrown out of the window.

I see what you’re saying and why it would be a good thing from Em’s pov, but again, for me, it goes back to not understanding why Alex is suddenly the one needing to be dominated. I’m all for Emmy going after what she wanted, taking it without asking. But I don’t see the bond between her and Alex, and I don’t see how it fixes anything between her and Will.

I also don’t like that this is the last fully fleshed out scenes in the series. Every other scene that would happen between the main couple after this is fade to black. It really does emphasis that Will and Emory take a back seat in their own book, and this is feeling is only amplified by how much Alex is featured afterward compared to Emmy, and the kind of scenes that Alex is the focus of in both Will and Emmy's pov.

Maybe because ikm queer so I why I can understand this scene better. The only thing that I fucking hated about this scene is the fact that will would let em fuck alex, but not aydin. If they”re all queer, then why would there be a difference between em getting pleasured by and for aydin any different than with alex? This can come off as queer or WLW fetish instead.

This is a fair explanation for what other anons have been saying. I’ve said that I couldn’t comment on it because I don’t know the intent PD, a queer author, was writing with, but this explanation does help. I had noticed the pattern, but hadn’t made the connection.

. The same goes when em was ok when will hooked up with damon, but not when he was with alex?

Maybe it’s just me, but I don’t think that Em was ever mad about Will hooking up with Alex or anyone else. She wanted him to be happy, even if that was without her. It hurt that it couldn’t be her, and of course she didn’t want his conquests shoved in her face – which is what he did all the time. That’s where I saw her jealousy mostly come in to play. She could acknowledge what he had done and be fine, but when he started taunting her is when she’d get angry and react.

But your point stands. That was just a little side thought on my end.

I feel like we're getting angry at the scene because out of pride as the readers who we want our wants catered to us, we do not want to lose against alex in this game of cat and mouse, but we're not emmy guys, this was how SHE solves her problem, and she was TIRED OF BLEEDING.

I think it was in character for Emmy for her to want to take charge of the situation. She was never passive with Will; why would she be with anyone else.

I really just think the issue is the dynamic between Emory and Alex needed to be fleshed out a bit more.

Because she gets to trust and love herself more now, and more inclined to work with his family instead of self-sabotaging herself thinking she wasn’t enough to keep up with all of his “amazing life” and him too with everything that is her

I just really liked how you phrased this.

We might not like her to be in this shitty family, but emmy like it, likes them, never hated them, and finally found enough time and love for herself to want to admit to be apart of them, and them with her. Her going to SF and ditching will would be some readers' wish fulfilment but was nit what emmy would wnated for her life. The fact that she went back home after the horsemen went to jail, and would worry when his brother always causes trouble for them since high school showed that in a corner in he rheart where she lets herself be honest, emory did care about will and the horsemen, even if her mouth says no and her actions move backwards.

Yeah.

And this is also why I like working within canon universe a lot of the time. Because when, as a writer, you’re forced to work within the decisions the characters have made for themselves, it helps you understand and sympathize with their decisions.

It’s all very layered I think

It is all very layered. Absolutely. There is no clear-cut, right and wrong interpretation.

Do let me know if what I said makes sense, because it made sense to me but it might not to others

I think a lot of what you’ve said makes sense, and I agree with the majority of it. I do think some of it is going to be unpopular, but different interpretations is just a thing to deal with in fandoms.

Sometimes what we want from an author might not fit into our narrative because we kinda already have something in our mind that we want from themand we’re fixated on it, and I feel like this is the case for people reading nightfall

Oh it absolutely is. PD said so themselves and the negative reactions to NF is one of the reasons they don’t really want to come back to the series. And even in the bonus scene, you could see them struggling with what to write because they already knew that half the fandom was going to hate whatever it was they came up with. Which turned out to be the case with most of the people here.

Again, I can only say what I think based on my experiences, but I feel that part of the issue that what you said before – PD writes these “shocking and horrid sex scenes (physical intimacy) instead of honest talk (verbal intimacy)”, but since we’ve already had the physical intimacy, a lot of readers are ready for the domestic, verbal intimacy, and it just never comes.

I liked your "No Apologies" fic but i dont think someone as daring to make shitty turn around arc like pd would go for your tamer plot for both will and emmy, something MORE had to happen, so it was a good fic, but i cannot ever see these fanfic characterisations of emmy by you happening in PD's writing or plot

and i feel like it's because it's usually lacking in weird and shocking actions or words that were always present in pd's works

Oh yeah, I totally get that. This is very accurate and will always be so. I won’t ever write to the degree of wild, weird, or shocking that PD writes. It's just not what I'm interested in writing. My fics have just been a way to fill a hole in the narrative that I feel, and I post with the hopes that others get a moment of fun from it.

It's just a goofy fun series to not be taken too seriously at the end of the day

Couldn’t agree more. As I’ve said, this isn’t a series that was meant to be looked at this closely. It was meant to be a fun rollercoaster of a series.

And I think there is something very fun about this series and the characters and the writing that keeps readers engaged despite all its flaws, because otherwise half of us wouldn’t have made it through NF.

Sorry if this post is too much, or if i come off as harsh, i was just trying yo put two and two together, putting aside feelings and making one scene made semse with the other. Idk if that worked or not.

Not too much at all. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

-KO

#asked and answered 147 #asked and answered #devil's night series #emory scott #no alex tag #train scene #character discussion #series discussion #response to prev ask #asked and answered 143 #asked and answered 146

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