#this arc was always a big influence on how I write clones and Jedi

[inkstainedhandswithrings]

The Jedi’s regard for the clones’ lives by example of the citadel arc:

I wanna note that I’m not a total Jedi Anti, and that I love most Jedi Characters in this arc. But I think a well written character has flaws, that’s what makes them real. So this is me pointing out the hypocrisy that I’ve noticed.

*Charger slips and falls off the wall*

Fives: Charger!

Obi-Wan: Well, they know we’re here.

——

*The walls are electrified, Longshot tells everyone to start running, doesn’t make it himself*

Cody: Longshot!

Obi-Wan: We must keep moving.

——

Ani and Obi: *hear about the information being shared between Piell and his Captain*

Ani and Obi: *reveal they never planned to save anyone but Piell, were just gonna leave the others to die ig?*

——

*Trooper gets cut in half by security door*

Piell: *in an even tone* We lost one. Looks like we’ve got some cutting to do.

——

*Echo is caught in the explosion of the shuttle*

Fives: Echo!

Obi-Wan: We have to go, now.

—> after they left the tower

Piell: We beat them once we can do it again! :D

Anakin: Lucky we’re not just any fugitives ;)

Fives: D,: (still mentally stunned)

——

*Two clones fall off another wall*

Rex: *silently staring at their still bodies as he walks past*

The Jedi: *don’t even look at them*

Anakin: Keep moving! Keep moving!

——

*Clone pushes Tarkin out the way, gets shot*

*Tarkin doesn’t even blink. No acknowledgement whatsoever. Just a regular Tuesday for this asshole.*

——

*Piell dies*

The Jedi, who kept telling everyone to MOVE IT a thousand times over: *no longer Moving Moving It™️* *find some cloth to wrap him in*

Ahsoka: He died honourably

(as did all the clones, honey)

Obi-Wan: Let’s take this moment to honour him

(you could’ve said ‘all our fallen’, sweetie. It’s two more words, you got this)

[jbk405]

I think I've found one of the key reasons why I prefer the old Expanded Universe to the current Star Wars content: Unique types of villains.

More specifically, people who weren't just Evil Force Users With Long Robes And Red Lightsabers. While there were always a few Darth Vader-clones that popped up to fill up space, so many of the Arc Villains were distinct not just in personality, but also how they were dangerous.

Grand Admiral Thrawn was a military tactician, which wasn't the point of any of the main villains in the Original Trilogy. Grand Moff Tarkin was a "Build a bigger superweapon and bludgeon the galaxy into submission" kind of villain, and Vader and the Emperor were mystical dark wizards. This isn't a complaint or criticism, but just pointing out that military tactics were never on display in the films since that wasn't the type of story they were telling. But Thrawn didn't have prophetic powers or Destiny, he had to analyze and plan around what he could learn about his adversaries. It's a different type of fight than Literal Magic. In the original Thrawn Trilogy, Captain Pellaeon frequently internally narrates how different Thrawn's style of leadership was to either Vader or the Emperor (Even if his art-analysis did verge on magic by itself).

Ysanne Isard was a political and/or espionage manipulator, which was even less a point of the Original Trilogy than military tactics were. She took advantage of the realities of actually needing to build a nation out of an underground military movement. With all of the dirty gutter politics, self-serving agendas, and logistics that doom so many revolutionary movements. I'm not as big a fan of her arc as I was when I was younger (I re-read the Rogue Squadron novels a few years ago and the writing quality is not as good as I remember, and Isard's plans frankly don't hold a lot of water), but the concept is still fantastic.

Warlord Zsinj on the surface seems like a merger of Thrawn and Isard -- he's a military commander who specializes in espionage -- but he also has a big focus that neither of them demonstrated: Business. While he still blows stuff up with his giant space ships and is sowing dissent through brainwashing and spycraft, he's simultaneously establishing a galaxy-wide network of completely-legitimate commercial businesses that he owns through untraceable pseudonyms. They fund his campaigns, give him influence on planets outside of his direct control, and allow him to control resources without any of his adversaries even being aware of it.

Even one-shot enemies like the Ssi-ruuk were so unique: They're invading the galaxy because their technology is powered by living souls and they want to harvest all life in the galaxy. That's messed up, and so distinct from the general "Take over the world" motivation of the Empire.

But as time went on, more and more of the enemies were just "Darth Vader Again". Another Jedi who fell to the Dark Side, or another long-lost schism of the Sith who rediscovered mainstream galactic society, or some other thing that is eventually resolved by a one-on-one lightsaber duel and a personal grudge against the Skywalker or Solo families. It definitely felt like they were out of ideas and kept running through the same villains over and over again.

This kicked into high gear after the Prequels came out, and continued in the new continuity after the EU was rebranded as "Legends".

I wish we could go back to the idea that there could be an enemy who wasn't super powerful in the force and consumed by Hatred Of The Jedi. With their own skills, their own methods, and something that makes them more than just another wannabe-Sauron. Pirates who are just pirates, marauding ex-Imperial Warlords who are just marauding ex-Imperial Warlords, and corrupt politicians who are just corrupt politicians, instead of revealing that Palpatine returned (somehow) all over again.

[meandmyechoes]

The more I think about Dark Disciple, the more I find something odd.

[28th March 17:46]

I keep referring to it as a ‘favourable experience’, and there is no question the writing is what made me fall totally head over heels about quintress, but I also just, can’t?

I mean, yes. It’s very passionate, dramatic, scenes and gestures I can only dream of. But I also, don’t really see it in that ’omg they totally belong together here are my sixty headcanons of them’ sense?

I am very involved in the pairing, but also don’t really, actively ‘ship’ it — like the way it was an open book with Rhayme or Latts Razzi (since it’s the same author that indoctrinated me to Captain Rhayme). I could imagine them being happily ever after and silly shenanigans and slow-burn. But the concept of a quintress fairytale ending is so wild. I can only ask how much it is tainted with my personal view on relationships.

I know the plot leaves little room for “the future” and fed us well on all tropes possible. But, it just never occurred to me to put them in any other clichés or invent a missing scene.

Winding up, I don’t think their relationship is "weak", but it’s very motivated by circumstances and once you take that out of them, you are a little bit lost. For example even during the illicit affairs month, I… can’t really propose one date that does not seem tonally insensitive. (I can think of them being cloak dorks and Vos bringing her to ice-cream, that’s it, after a long hard moment) Really, all I possibly want is that sweet, sweet angst and canon is already there so I have no complaint.

It’s just… I don’t really get why it has to be the two of them that fall for each other. I understand why they did, and I believe it— Perhaps it’s much more a physical attraction thing that I don’t really have personal experience with.

I don’t know if quintress classify as slow-burn because 10 chapters still seem a little quick in the grand scheme of things. (aside: I’m quite disappointed Ventress wasn’t doing much in the last quarter of the book.) My point is, they do feel a little bit puppet to tropes, and while it’s deliciously written, there’s not much potential outside of canon. And that lack of inspiration makes me grimace a little.

[3rd April, 01:39]

I’ve scrolled through the dd tag and let the book sank a little. I am better articulated to talk about the sexist criticism now.

It’s a romance story, and when I judge it by that (lower) standard, it ticks the boxes. However, it might be a weakness as well, due to the projectability of the heroes. And yes, the whole assassination is dumb. Yet, tcw has been consistently this dumb at us. The last two times when she’s more rooted in the dark she failed, sent Savage and failed, so she’s gonna do it again with Vos… after she put down her desire for revenge. right. and surprise! Our “assassination” plan is to find Dooku and duel him directly. right…

I’ve read a review that says the romance takes away from the plot. However, the romance IS the plot. The book IS supposed to revolve around the two of them. I do agree them becoming begrudging allies then partners is a more unique approach, more rewarding as foils as well. but I guess a romance is easier for the conventional to process ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

With the “Ventress lose agency in falling for Vos”. Now, I can’t dictate how each of us buy into their physical attraction and chemistry (or lack thereof), and there’s no denial that a conscious human being is making that choice for the fictional character, I think the stance on this topic varied person to person from the above two factors, which are very different starting points.

I kept Katie Lucas’s foreword vividly in mind while reading. She said this is a story about people seizing chances to rebuild. That there’s always a choice. Cliché as it is, I believe ~the power of love~. I believe there exists someone you’re willing to sacrifice everything for, to overlook everything for, to forgive - to love them, warts and all. So, yes whether you think Ventress loses her agency to the romance, or if that’s a conscious choice on her behalf, is swayed heavily by how much you buy that they are the one.

[10th April, 10:30]

Yesterday I’ve been thinking a bit more about this. I do love this ship, I just don’t believe they’d be two people who find each other again and again in every life time, in every universe. That’s why, as magnificent as fireworks, it also won’t last.

To explore this, it’s not entire impossible for quintress to separate peacefully after this incident, but would that cheapen the build before? The entire motivation of dark!Quinlan hinges on his vision of their future. And say, Ventress did saved him and survived. How would he balance being a Jedi and his feelings - that’s publicly exposed to the Council? (sidenote: i really don’t like Ch. 27 where a bunch of old men are questioning their love life, but uhhh yes, I’m a sensible person!) For now, I’m seeing another Obi-Satine situation. And honestly how bad that an outcome is. It’s not like Ventress died for her war crimes! The show gave her a full pardon! So Idk man. Why can’t she leave him because she loves him and she exiled herself and they never see each other again WHY NOT FILONI WHY NOT.

Now I’m lamenting more what could’ve been with the two arcs. In Filoni’s original sketch, Aayla and Maul were involved. Man, that could’ve been the dream.

~~~

Part 2: [26th April, 15:15]

It has been… a month, since I finished Dark Disciple and I feel like it’s time to conclude all the thinking this book has made me do.

On the wider reflection about attachment and the Jedi Order, I still have to do more reading on it from other sources to form a concrete opinion. This theme won’t be touched on in this post yet, but I cannot shake how intriguing it is to compare “falling” in love to falling to the dark side. The temptation, and the submission to their emotions, the irrationality, the newfound curiosity, it all incites. Very curiously, it was Anakin Skywalker who commented that one is “blinded by love”

Okay, so what I’ve been scratching my head off the past two weeks is how I look at the romance between Asajj Ventress and Quinlan Vos. How would I define it?

Now this is as much as an exploration of how I view romantic relationships. Well, I’ve decided it wasn’t “love”, it was an “affair”. It was an affair because it’s a rush of passion, it’s a secret, it won’t last. Before I chop my own head off for bluntness, I mean it in, of course they are hopelessly in love with each other, that’s the exact premise of why it moved me so. But it wasn’t a complete relationship, wasn’t a healthy, sustainable one by any objective standards. Then, that’s the exact contradiction. Oh to throw caution in the wind with you, or to build a future with you?

Both are things I want a lot, and the ideal is of course one after the other. What quintress had (in the end) is definitely not something I’d want for myself, but it’s so fantastical, it’s alluring, just like the concept of falling in love - opening up yourself and trusting another person, is - it’s risky. That’s why it’s a sweet, sweet drug.

I’ve been so angry at all the red flags in this relationship. Reading this book, getting into both of their shoes, yelling NO like their best friends. But ultimately, what they had is unique to them and I can’t influence it in any way. Re-reading, I find myself holding myself back at all the places I was furious about going ‘You are smarter than this!’. Because it’s a tragedy, and the beautiful (I guess) thing is they chose each other.

The other day something on the dash inspired me to really think about ship dynamics. I, unashamedly admit, I’m VERY into Obi/Quin/Ventress in any and all combinations. *cough* I will not explain further.

I do accept the premise and I did discover they share quite a bunch of traits, but it confused me a while what made them cross the boundary, and it was, physical attraction (that the book was selling so hard I was blushing hot). I love them both a lot, and I would like to date them both, and I can see myself in either of them. Again comes the contradiction, is it a good thing to have characters so easily projectable, or do I want to see myself in more complex characters like them?

I probably lost quite a few cars stalling this train of thought. And I've been a canon apologist since forever. This book brought me a lot of emotional upheavals and a lot of food for thought. It brought me down to reflect on my romantic worldview and sexuality because I have nothing better to do. It totally challenged me as a writer and it’s just a really good novel by its right, regardless of the absurdity that is The Clone Wars. It’s a lot of firsts for me. And I really should find something better to do.

[26th April 16:00]

I must address that I got spoiled of the ending and the first and second half of the book probably went through some big changes.

If I cried for this book, it’s score would be even higher. And I’ve been so obsessed with discussing the relationship, without shedding light on the characterization, which is definitely an unfortunate side effect. Then it occurs that quite possibly the second half (26-42) deviated even further from the script than the first? It doesn’t have concept art or blocking, plus possibly (heavily) edited to omit correlation to other arcs. My major complaint for the second half is Ventress doesn’t do much and we know NOTHING about Vos, even though he is given screen time in the book. my, I just wish Ventress punch him harder and drag his idiotic mess back to the light sooner.

And to criticism about it being their ‘toxic’ relationship being portrayed as ‘true love’, well, it really depends on how thoughtful the reader is, right? I think if the reader is able to notice all these red flags and gave their own interpretation of the relationship and its outcome, it’d’ve been an educating experience. There’s what for the reader and what for the characters. They don’t know this ‘love’ is destroying them, and what kind of message is it sending? What ‘love’ depicted in the book is true then? I have my answers, and I hope every reader comes to their own as well.

[bedlamsbard]

fascinated by the distinction drawn between "audience member" and "fic writer" bc I think I know what you mean in regards to kind of re-writing it in your own head not as the secondary way of interacting with it but as the first. But I would not have thought of putting it that way!

A lot of it has to do with the specific fic genre I write in, which is long plotty AUs that I’ll probably be working on for years -- to some extent I can set aside everything in canon that occurs in in-universe chronology after the span of my story; Backbone and Crown doesn’t have to take into account the events of the OT and ST because they haven’t occurred yet.  On the other hand, I can’t totally set aside major set piece events that involve causes and players outside of whatever characters and timeline I’m working with, because depending what I’m working with things are still going to happen whether or not my characters are involved.

And I make compromises all the time about whether things are going to make it into the story -- there’s a whole discarded Backbone subplot about Zare Leonis that I considered really carefully before not including, even with the knowledge that leaving him and his interaction with Ezra out of the story meant that his arc in the Servants of the Empire novels will be completely changed.  Backbone covers about half the span of S1, maybe less; I was always running out the timeline of S1 to figure out what events would be happening that would or would or not be affected by the Ghosts’ changed circumstances and if that merited being included in the story.  Rebels S1 is very small-scale; going further into the timeline of the show means that opens up further and further and a lot of other factors are in play.  The earliest version of Backbone was also quite different; the Free Ryloth fleet didn’t exist, Cham and Alecto were members of the Rebel Alliance, a number of other Rebel Alliance characters were there; I reworked it after Siege came out and it was revealed that the Rebel Alliance wasn’t yet a thing.

With Gambit, otoh, there were a lot of galactic-scale repercussions; I was always running the timeline back and forth and figuring out what the originating events were and how those would play out in the altered timeline of this single-point divergence AU.  But the crucial difference is that for Gambit (and Wake), I was working is that I was working with a closed canon -- I didn’t have to worry about something down the line adding something to the in-universe chronology, and a lot of it was heavily altered by the divergence point anyway.  (Actually, that canon reopened partway through Wake when The Lost Missions dropped in a way that was relevant; the chip scenes were somewhat shoehorned in because I couldn’t leave that out.)  Crown is working in a tighter timeline but one that comes a lot closer to the set piece events of the saga; I have “where is this in relation to Rogue One?” running through my head when I’m working through any of the Rebel Alliance scenes.  There are a number of small-scale changes that aren’t immediately clear (because the story’s not finished) that have come about because of the story’s divergence point that would have a much greater influence on galactic events than they did in canon.

When it comes to out-of-universe chronology, the added canon that comes out after I’ve already started working on a story, it can be a lot harder to deal with.  95% of the time, if the additional canon deals with the character/setting of my WIP, I’m going to ignore the bulk of it but occasionally integrate details here and there as relevant (such as the name of the Tann Province in Backbone -- you may note it doesn’t show up until quite late in the story, after the S3 ep aired).  I didn’t change the names of the Inquisitors -- in fact, I made the decision early on that however I named the Inquisitors it would be different from what canon did, as that was prior to them being called “Seventh Sister”, “Fifth Brother,” etc.  5% of the time it’s something that I cannot ignore, like the clones and the chips -- that’s pretty rare, tbh, but it happens.  (I’ve scrapped a story because of additional canon; I had a chunk of Kanan/Hera time travel written where they both got thrown back to the Clone Wars, but the Kanan - The Last Padawan comic coming out threw me too badly with their clones as opposed to my OCs.)  To some extent, I try to only work with the canon that was available when I started writing that story; that’s not entirely sustainable with canon coming out so rapidly, and sometimes it can throw out a reader.

The worst part, as a fic writer, about dealing with additional canon isn’t trying to integrate it into an ongoing story: it’s that it may change how I feel about Star Wars, or if it’s done poorly, I may end up in the kind of mental place where I get very “why am I doing this when the canon doesn’t even care.”  There’s a scene in the Darth Vader comics where the Inquisitors are doing shots after killing a Jedi and stealing his baby.  When that particular issue came out, I was working on the big Inquisitors vs. Kanan & Ahsoka fight scene in Backbone, and I was so badly thrown by the disconnect that I had to step away for a few days.  I hated the Rebels finale so much that I couldn’t work on Backbone for a while even though it’a completely different universe.  A lot of what canon did with Ahsoka post-S2, and the way she gets idolized by both fandom and the PTB, has messed with my perception of her so much that with Crown Ahsoka and the backend of Backbone Ahsoka I didn’t trust myself writing her and had to have multiple beta readers just for her characterization, something I have never worried about before.  (This is one reason I did that deep dive the other week to figure out what the hell was going on in the writers room about her, and honestly?  I feel better about it now that I’ve rationalized what was going on in a way that makes sense to me.)  I had to stop reading the Doctor Aphra comics because Hera was so out of character there that I was getting really, really upset (and also the animal harm), and then I just stopped reading all the SW comics because they were making me mad and I wasn’t enjoying myself.  Sometimes you get big universe consequences stuff that doesn’t deal with your main characters (looking at you, TROS) and it’s frustrating if you don’t like it!  Then I have to sit down and try to decide “hey, am I going to use any of this Palpatine stuff?” -- this was actually a problem for Crown, because the Palpatine scenes weren’t written yet when TROS came out, and I was so badly thrown by TROS that I didn’t know how to deal with that in Crown even though it’s mostly not relevant.  Would I be happiest if I was working in a closed canon, or if at least I knew (or thought) my main characters weren’t going to get any more canon stories about them? GODS, YES, THIS IS WHY I STARTED WRITING PREQUEL FIC BACK IN THE LATE 2000S.  (Ironically, I started writing PT fic before TCW came out, then flipped fandoms and came back in 2012 -- but all my 2012 PT fic only used the closed canon of the EU Clone Wars/Republic comics, not TCW.)

Mostly as an audience member I don’t want to see my writing characters on the screen anymore -- there’s a certain amount of hypervigilance that comes with having your writing characters or settings active in canon, even if you don’t intend to integrate any of that.  I watch and read Star Wars very differently than I watch and read anything else; I mostly don’t find it relaxing because I’m always aware of the fact that the stuff I care about could pop up at any moment, or because I’m concentrating so hard on characterization/nuance/worldbuilding that my brain is going 150 mph, or because I have very specific deal-breakers.  (I do find reading in the EU relaxing because bro, that is CLOSED CANON.)  I would like to relax!  If canon finally contorts itself to the point I can relax again that will be a relief, tbh, even as frustrating as it would also be.

...this is probably a much longer response than you expected.