#this also doubles as my ‘you better fucking be nice and respect patton’ argument

[selfdestructivecat]

Do you know what time it is?

That’s right, folks! It’s time for…

Another! Random! Theory!

(Featuring our favorite sassy Dark Sides: Virgil and Janus!)

So, the story of Sanders Sides. We love it, right? The slowly escalating drama, the growing tension between all of the Sides, the breaking point looming on the horizon like the consequences of every bad decision we’ve ever made…

The story also has the added complexity of doubling as a metaphor for our own personal inner turmoils. That’s what the show is about, after all, right? That courtroom battle between Patton and Janus wasn’t just two characters fighting for the moral high ground; it represented a very relatable dilemma, where someone was placed in a difficult situation where they would have to choose between opportunity and the supposed “right thing to do”. Logan and Virgil’s debate wasn’t just two characters arguing; it represented how anxiety can impact our ability to reach logical conclusions.

And while not all of the analogies are perfect (and we can’t expect them to be), the way the Sides interact with each other has always had that fascinating double meaning that has provoked interesting reflections and discussions.

However, one point that I’ve seen being made by some people, and one that I happen to agree with, is that one dynamic doesn’t quite fit with the others. While it is certainly interesting from a story and character perspective, it doesn’t make much sense given the context of the Sanders Sides universe. These two characters, due to their aspects, don’t seem to have much of a reason to harbor bad blood. And yet, these two loathe each other, arguably more than any other pairing in the entire series.

Of course, I am talking about Virgil and Janus.

Now, this hatred between the characters is interesting and, well, confusing, for two main reasons. First, this hatred seems to stem from something we, as the viewers, don’t know about yet. From their very first interaction on-screen, they are immediately trading insults.

“And Virgil, I adore the more intense eyeshadow, it totally doesn’t make you look like a raccoon.”

“Nice gloves. Did you just finish washing some dishes?”

(Janus and Virgil, “Can Lying Be Good”)

Not only are these insults the first things they say to each other, but there is also a familiarity to this back-and-forth. Virgil was ready with a retort, like he expected Janus’ insult and was prepared to fight back. This animosity between them isn’t anything new.

However, it is never explained. And given how this is the first time c!Thomas has seen the two interact (as well as, obviously, the first time he’s seen Deceit period), their distain for each other stems from something Thomas isn’t aware of.

And this leads us to our second reason why this dynamic doesn’t quite fit in the context of the show: it doesn’t appear to stem from an internal conflict from Thomas. At least, not one we are aware of. Otherwise, it would have been a video, or at least mentioned in passing.

The show has set a precedent towards explaining why certain characters don’t get along. Roman and Virgil were notoriously antagonistic toward each other in season 1, to the point where Roman basically declared Virgil his enemy. And they very clearly explained this: Roman puts Thomas in danger by ignoring Virgil’s warnings, and Virgil prevents Thomas from achieving Roman’s dreams by weighing him down with fear. Their dislike for one another made sense.

Currently, Logan and Remus don’t get along. Remus is, by his very definition, illogical. His demands make absolutely no sense. Why would Thomas kill his brother? What purpose would he have to jump out of a moving car? Of course Logan would be frustrated with him! And Logan has also proven to be a source of frustration for Remus, as he repeatedly hindered Remus’ schemes in WTIT. Their aspects directly contradict each other, and even hinder each other. Logan’s logic is the greatest weapon against intrusive thoughts, and Remus’ distressing brand of “creativity” is strong enough to pull Thomas away from Logan’s logical reassurances and routine.

Hell, even Roman and Janus’ hatred for each other makes sense. While their goals aligned at first with the callback, Roman ultimately decided that, as Thomas’ drive and desire, he wanted Thomas to be a good person more than he wanted that callback. And even now, after SvSR, he still wants Thomas to be a good person! That’s why he had such a prominent role in SvSR, even though it was primarily a debate between Patton (morality) and Janus (selfishness). Roman wanted that callback desperately. So why was he still engaging in this discussion? Why wasn’t he just siding with Janus? Because he wanted Patton to prove that he made the right choice. He wanted his desires to be justified. Even after all this time, he wanted Thomas to be a good person more than he wanted that callback. And in that moment, Janus was fighting against that desire. Janus was his enemy.

But what about Janus and Virgil? Where does their relationship fit into all of this? How are their aspects in conflict?

Because looking at it at face value, it doesn’t make any sense.

Why do we lie? Well, in most cases, it’s because we fear consequences for something we did and are trying to escape them. We lie because we are scared. We lie to protect ourselves.

Well, that’s odd. It seems like, not only do Virgil and Janus seem to be working towards the same thing, but that they often work together hand in hand. Think about “Can Lying Be Good”. In every scenario acted out, Thomas lied because he was afraid of the consequences of telling the truth. He will get fired from his job, he will hurt a friend in mourning, he will traumatize a young child. Yes, there were definitely other factors contributing to his choice to lie in each scenario, but I think we can probably all agree that there was strong, underlying fear motivating these lies. Virgil (and, of course, Janus) was trying to protect Thomas through these lies.

So if there doesn’t seem to be any conflict of interest, then why the hell do Virgil and Janus hate each other so much?

Well, one possible reason (and one of the most commonly accepted headcanons I’ve seen) is that they had a falling out in their past, possibly driven by Virgil leaving the other Dark Sides. And yeah, this is very juicy drama that adds some interesting character depth to both of these Sides, but in terms of how the show has dealt with all of the characters and how they interact with each other as aspects of a personality, it’s a bit… disappointing, for a lack of a better word. What are we supposed to learn from this conflict? How can we, as viewers, compare this bitterness between Virgil and Janus to strife between our own anxiety and our tendency to lie?

So I’m going to propose another possibility for this conflict, one that may be slightly less interesting than the mostly-accepted headcanon, but is much more satisfying in my opinion.

So, Anxiety and Deceit… how can these two contradict each other? Well, to narrow things a bit, I will declare right out of the gate that Janus’ role as self-preservation doesn’t fight against Virgil’s role at all. While anxiety can lead someone to make decisions that can harm more than help (such as freezing rather than acting or running away in a dangerous situation), anxiety’s ultimate purpose is to protect. Fear is self-preservation at its core.

So instead, let’s focus on the facet of deceit. As we’ve previously established, most lies are told out of fear. So this would suggest that these two can’t contradict each other, right? Well, no. While we lie mostly out of fear, the act of lying can be very anxiety-inducing. In fact, I’d say that’s a pretty common fear a lot of people have.

Especially, say, if someone was terrified of being a bad person, and was convinced that the act of lying contributed to a lack of morality.

This is HUGE in the context of season 2! The pivotal conflict of this season is Thomas trying to figure out what makes someone a good person. He wants to be a good person so badly that he is terrified of the idea that he may not be one. Patton’s entire driving force behind fighting so hard to prove that he’s right, that Thomas is good in both SvS and SvSR, is because he wants to reassure Thomas. Because he loves Thomas so much that he can’t stand to see him look so scared.

“I don’t want to be a bad person…”

“…Ok. Then I’ll do whatever I can to make sure you’re not.”

(Thomas and Patton, “Selfishness v. Selflessness”)

“Like I told you before, sometimes I don’t know the way. But when I told you that, you were so scared. I couldn’t bear it. So I said to myself: ‘Alright, Patton. Thomas needs you. You’re responsible for his morality. You can never not have an answer for him.’ And then I promised you that I would keep fighting.”

(Patton, “Putting Others First - Selfishness v. Selflessness Redux”)

Virgil wasn’t present at all during the redux, and he had a very minimal role in the original court trial. So one would think that anxiety plays a very minor role in this conflict. But that couldn’t be further from the truth. Fear is at the very center of it all. Thomas wants to be a good person because he is terrified of the alternative. He’s so terrified of this possibility that he spirals, arguing with himself and desperately trying to justify his feelings of frustration after the wedding, grasping for an answer that would make him feel justified in his anger without jeopardizing his integrity.

But that answer doesn’t exist. And it terrifies him. It terrifies Virgil.

Janus’ proposal, that Thomas should act more selfishly and prioritize himself more, challenges everything Thomas believes in. Based on the rules previously established, rules Patton had repeatedly endorsed, doing what Janus says would make Thomas a bad person, something Thomas fears. And finally, we reach our point of conflict between the two main subjects of this discussion.

Virgil wants Thomas to be a good person because they both fear the alternative. Listening to Janus would mean allowing the terrifying possibility of becoming a bad person. And Virgil doesn’t want that.

And you know what? That also explains another strange character dynamic that emerged following SvSR! This explains why Virgil is so mad at Patton!

Because sure, the idea that Virgil is upset that Patton hurt his bff Roman is absolutely adorable, but is that really all there is to it? It’s a very drastic change in attitude, especially considering that Patton and Virgil were incredibly close before the whole wedding fiasco (and I would go so far as to say that Patton was the person Virgil trusted more than anyone. He was the first to fully accept Virgil, after all.)

But if Patton started to act in a way that went against Virgil’s aspect, like if he started making decisions (or letting someone else make decisions) that added a lot of fear and uncertainty into Thomas’ life, then suddenly Virgil’s icy demeanor towards the fatherly Side makes a lot more sense. Patton’s choice to start trusting Janus and to allow Thomas to make more selfish decisions wasn’t just a betrayal to Roman and his decision to forgo the callback, it was also a betrayal to Virgil and the security Patton had previously given him. It’s like if your parents had made the decision to suddenly move your family to a different place without your approval, completely uprooting your life and sense of security and thrusting you into a different, uncertain, and scary environment.

And it’s been repeatedly established, in both season 1 and season 2, that Virgil despises change! Routine is safe. Familiarity is safe. Change is bad. Janus is proposing, and Patton is supporting, a HUGE change in the way Thomas should approach his life and the decisions he makes from here on out! Of course Virgil would be mad!

So I have a feeling that Virgil’s role in this entire situation is far from over. And we’ve got FOUR entire parts planned for the season finale, suggesting that we have a lot of ground to cover. I would be very surprised if Virgil didn’t have a few choice words for Janus and Patton, and I for one can’t wait to see where everyone stands when the dust finally settles.

[quietrainfan]

Okay! It’s the next day and I say that’s more than enough time for me to go back to my Unsympathetic ways! *evil laughter* You can not stop me! Let’s list off the observations, shall we?~ (Warning: Spoilers ahead! Also, obviously, Unsympathetic opinions of the Sides. If that ain’t something that floats your boat, by all means, ignore this post.)

- Patton not allowing Roman to say anything even remotely critical of Virgil

Like, seriously. What Roman said wasn’t even an insult. I mean, I guess it could be considered insensitive to Virgil’s feelings. But how many times has Virgil took jabs (oftentimes low ones) at Roman and was not asked to be nice or apologize? It seems to always be Roman who has to moderate how he speaks while Virgil can mouth off all he wants. Roman wasn’t being malicious, he was just poking some fun. His tone and smile clearly communicate he’s just fooling around and isn’t intentionally trying to get under Virgil’s skin.

I’d have less of a problem with this if one, Virgil was called out more for his behavior. Two, his and Roman’s banter was more equal and friendly rather than guilt-trippy and one-sided. Three, this scene not ending with Roman forcing himself to agree with Virgil’s opinion and Virgil’s condescending little thumbs up afterward. As if to say: “There you go, nice and obedient.”

- Roman using Deceit’s hat for something he isn’t even apart of and without permission (more on that later)

I’m actually going to save this one for last. Because there’s so much to unpack there even though it’s not at the center of attention.

- More of not allowing Logan to have a say in things. Roman taking away his votes because he isn’t wearing a onesie.

Okay so, he’s being excluded from a decision simply because he wasn’t wearing something. I know this may seem like a nick-pick but come on. Give this poor man a break. How many times are the other Sides going to completely brush Logan off and invalidate his input? Even for small things like this he’s being treated like an afterthought. I know Roman pretty much rigged it for everyone and Virgil gave him a look...but this was mostly centered around excluding Logan, yet again. And they still give him flack for not trying to open up. Poor Lo, I wanna just hug him and maybe read something with him just to give some form of comfort from this. And of course, dear ol’ Patton sees no problem with this but was so quick to rush to Virgil’s defense. Then again, this is normal for them. So no one bats an eye at it.

- “I can think of a few ways.”

Not an argument here. Go OFF, Virgil!!! Sorry not sorry, I got SO much satisfaction out of Patton’s face fall here. I was prepared for that line to just be another “Hee Hee Patton line” without so much as an acknowledgment about his actions lately but then I hear THIS! Just good old Patton about to not at all try to address how he treats Thomas and the others as always but then Virgil of all people comes in and lets him have it! Just to rub salt in that well-deserved wound! Yes! That’s right, frown! Frown, HARD! Jeez, that felt so good to see!

I hope we get more of that in the future. Just dissecting Patton’s mistakes and not explaining it away with “he’s trying”!

- “Thomas made his decision and I think we should just try to settle into it.”

HA! That is RICH, Patton! No joke. I laughed so bitterly at that line. Patton, how many times have you tried to sway Thomas in a direction that YOU wanted no matter whether or not it made him happy or was the best decision for him overall? How many times did you guilt-trip him, guilt-trip everyone? How many times did you ignore Roman’s misery (S v S is the most recent example), ignore Virgil’s anxiety? Or amplify it? How many times did you ignore Logan’s advice until it actually had an effect on YOU? You have NO room to talk about allowing Thomas to come to his own decisions when you spent SO long swaying the movement of things to end in your favor. I’m-

How many times did you just “ease into” the changes in Thomas’s life or the other parts of his personality that made you uncomfortable and tried to adjust without judgment? I can’t- *wheeze* Here’s hoping you get some really good character development later on because I just can’t stand you like this.

- “How are you telling me to settle into something right now when you’ve taken your sweet time to settle into things you were uncomfortable with in the past?”

Once again, go OFF, Virgil!!! Call. Him. Out! Patton has been nothing but judgmental and guilt-trippy with whatever he didn’t approve of. He’s made the same mistakes over and over, hardly showing any remorse for it. Only when others point it out does he look bothered. From where I’m standing, it doesn’t feel like he’s ever made as much as an effort as the others. It’s very irritating, to say the least. Him just treating Deceit and Remus like infections rather than apart of Thomas all the time, for example. Trying to repress them rather than understand them, like he did with Virgil. But he likes Virgil, so of course, he didn’t have the same reaction. He doesn’t like Remus or Deceit, so he acts accordingly. Which is really messed up.

Don’t give Virgil that look, Thomas! You know he’s right!

- “There’s nothing wrong with talking! Sometimes you just need to air things out and get a second opinion.”

I’m sorry. Did I just hear that right? *checking with an imaginary person* Who was the one that said that? It was Patton? *non-existant “yes”* Oh, alright.

*clears throat* Getting a second opinion? Getting a second opinion?? Getting a second opinion?! 

...My dude, since when have you wanted a “second opinion”?! Especially from Deceit! Since when did you confront a problem head-on, talk about it without bias, and was satisfied with a conclusion that didn’t cater to your liking?! I genuinely want to see you take initiative, not try to control everything, listen to everyone, and take your role seriously. Without trying to steer everything towards something you personally approve of.

I want to see you go through that change so badly. Drop the goofiness for a bit and commit. Please! *deep sigh*

- Virgil hissing at Deceit

He literally just came to get his hat, dude. He didn’t even acknowledge you. What is your deal? But I guess all Dee has to do is breathe and that’s enough cause for hostility. Jeez. There better be a really good explanation for Virgil’s attitude or I swear I will reach through the damn screen and deal with Virgil myself.

 - Logan putting his onesie on out of sight.

I think this really speaks volumes about how he’s treated. He’s so afraid of being ridiculed and not being respected that he has to hide what he likes. Logan feels if he actually indulges in his other interests openly, he won’t be able to actually enjoy it because it’s “silly” and of course Logan can’t be “silly” because it’s going to cost him his comfort and dignity. And it’s not like he’s wrong for feeling that way. 

There is such a lack of respect for him from the others, day in and day out. He can’t ever let his hair down and relax for a bit. The others complain about him being so closed-off but when opens up, he always gets shut down. When he makes jokes, he can’t just laugh with the others. It’ll be used as material against him later on if he does. (Ex: He misuses a word, it’s used against him later even though it clearly bothers him. It’s not teasing if the recipient isn’t laughing along.)

Logan wants a say in what they watch as a family? Yeah, no. Unless you wear that onesie that we’ll likely make fun of you for, your opinion is invalid.

I can’t imagine what this is doing to Logan’s mental health and self-esteem. Or can I? Because that last clip is pretty telling. Honestly, I respect Lo so much. He has to put up with so much bullshit yet he continues on and does his job anyway. Hopefully, he’ll find some way to feel better about himself.

- Roman using Deceit’s hat for something he isn’t even apart of and without permission (here we are)

Speaking of a complete lack of respect, what the fuck, Roman?! And literally everyone else!

Okay so, Deceit and the Light Sides are not anywhere near on good terms. Especially after S v S! They are not friendly with one another. There’s no dynamic here that allows any of the Light Sides to borrow something from Deceit. While I did laugh at Deceit’s reaction and Roman’s face after was genuinely priceless it still...got me thinking.

Deceit is mistreated all the time. He’s ignored, demonized, villainized by them at every turn. He and Remus aren’t included in any family get-togethers. When he was literally having an emotional breakdown he was laughed at (Virgil) and still ignored. Deceit did everything he could to be heard in a debate and was called “edgy” for expressing genuine concern over Thomas’s well being.

Then Roman obviously sneaks into his space and steals his hat to use for another debate that they’re having??? That also doubles as quality family time that he’s never included in??? Do I really need to explain how utterly disrespectful and messed up that is? And this is after they had the courtroom scenario and left on really tense terms. And they likely haven’t spoken since.

So not only is Deceit going to be constantly demonized, made fun of, and excluded from anything remotely affectionate...but he’s also going to get his personal items stolen on top of all that? How nice. And just...the salt in the wound of using it for a voting and family time...

I’m sorry if I’m repeating myself but I just can’t get over it! The nerve, the audacity...it’s so low!

I honestly don’t know how Deceit remains so civil with the others, it’s truly remarkable. I applaud you, Dee. Respect. Hopefully, you’ll get fairer treatment in the future.