#think about what this scene is saying: the atreides and harkonnens are two sides of the same coin

[saintsalia]

DUNE: PART TWO (2024) - dir. Denis Villeneuve

[fuckyeahisawthat]

Fully prepared for this to be a minority position but I am deeply emotionally invested in Paul and Chani not getting back together in Dune Messiah. Not just because I love angst and tragedy (I do) but because I don't think there's a way to do it without undermining the narrative and character arcs that Dune Part Two executed so well.

Paul and Chani's relationship in the Villeneuve films exists on a totally different foundation from what's in the books. It's a political love story and you simply cannot separate out the politics from the romance. Their connection starts with the politics and the love is built on top of that.

It's not just that they happen to fall in love while fighting together in an anti-colonial guerrilla war; that is why she falls in love with him. Because he is willing to take the same risks as her in fighting for her people's liberation. Not by trying to impose himself as a leader (at first) but side by side with her as comrades and equals. Let me fight beside you. That's all I'm asking. He is quite literally willing to put his body on the line for a struggle that's been with her all her life, that she cannot escape, but that he could walk away from if he chose. And in fact he proves himself to be an asset and not a liability in this struggle and they start winning. And yeah that shit's romantic as fuck!! Kudos to whoever on the writing team was like actually direct action solidarity is sexy af because they were right and they should say it! There clearly is some attraction or at least interest in Paul on Chani's part from fairly early on, but it's only after he's proven his political worth, in battle, that she allows herself to trust him on a personal level enough to begin a romantic relationship with him. (And it's only after Paul takes off the Atreides ring, the symbol of the fact that he came there to rule over her, that the narrative permits him to advance to this point.) They could have been comrades but not lovers, but never the other way around, because there's no other version of Paul that this Chani would have fallen in love with.

It's important that they meet in circumstances where Paul has no structural power over her. Chani never would have trusted the Paul who stood in the colonial palace and pledged to "honor" Stilgar by offering him hospitality on his own fucking planet. Because she would have known, just as Stilgar did, that such an offer of fellowship, no matter how genuine and well-intentioned, is not made on equal terms. It's only once Paul has been forcibly separated from his colonial privilege that they have even a chance to approach each other as human beings. (And, in a sort of dark irony, that violence becomes a bridge that connects them. That Paul is driven not by abstract power games among the Great Houses but by real grief and anger over the violent death of people he loves at the hands of the Harkonnens must surely be something Chani understands. And it builds a level of trust and empathy between them, that she doesn't have to explain the stakes of what they're fighting for. He knows it in his bones.)

It's not a coincidence that all their explicitly romantic moments are shot through with politics. Their first kiss is wrapped up in a conversation about what it means to be Fremen and I would very much like to be equal to you. (Yes, he's flirting his ass off with that line, but I do think he is sincere.) Their single post-coital scene has I'm no messiah, I'm a fedaykin of Sietch Tabr--not just a commitment to her people and her home but to her specific form of political struggle in which he is joining her. Throughout their whole relationship, the personal and the political are so interwoven as to be indistinguishable from one another.

This kind of commingling of emotional commitment to a person with political commitment to a culture/people/cause could have very easily slid into something tokenizing or fetishistic, but the writing manages to avoid that by sticking very strongly to a couple of guardrails. One, Chani is not some passive prize to be won, but an active agent of her own liberation, whether Paul is in the picture or not. She is the Fremen liberation struggle within the political allegory of the film; she is its voice and embodiment from the moment we meet her. On a character level, she is doing her thing and it's up to Paul to either follow or get out of the way. Even though we know he is afraid of her dying, he never once suggests she leave the front lines of armed struggle (can you imagine?) because that struggle is such a fundamental part of who she is and what he loves about her.

Two--and this one is important for what comes next--the narrative never trivializes the political side of their relationship in favor of the romantic. The second Paul reaches for any kind of power over the Fremen, over Chani, the trust between them is broken and the romance cannot continue. She might still love him as a person--you don't just turn that off--but she cannot be in love with him as the Lisan al-Gaib, fulfillment of a false prophecy she hates; as the Duke of Arrakis, her colonial overlord; or as the Emperor of the Known Universe, overlord of her overlord. As soon as he pulls that shit he is just another colonizer and she's done with him.

And like, kudos to the narrative for being absolutely uncompromising on that point! That's what makes both the political allegory and the personal tragedy hit so hard! Paul, bro, you fucked that one up good and now you are Experiencing a Consequence! I LOVE that in the end, love isn't enough. All the love in the world isn't enough to keep Chani from walking out at the end of the film, because the foundation that love is built on is broken and cannot be repaired.

(I do believe that by the time he is declaring himself Emperor, Paul thinks he has no choice, that this is the only way to save the people he loves from any number of worse fates. But that, too, is a betrayal, of a kind I don't think Paul fully understands. Because either you think the Fremen are capable of governing their own planet or you don't. Deciding unilaterally that having a "friendly" imperialist in power is the best you can hope for is a profound denial of the agency of the people Paul claims to be doing this in the name of. It's either paternalism or despair, and neither are acceptable modes of thinking for a serious revolutionary. Chani would tell you as much.)

The thing with making a bold writing choice like that is that...you cannot then walk it back in the next film with Chani choosing to forgive Paul or coming around to seeing the world his way and understanding that yes it's politically unsavory and he's manipulating the people he said he was in solidarity with but this was the only way! If you do that then the whole framework of what the first two films are trying to say about power and imperialism and resistance and solidarity collapses into incoherence. On a thematic level Dune Messiah is all about the consequences of Paul taking power the way he did and these are the consequences.

And on a character level...I just don't see any way to come back from such a deep betrayal. Even if some part of Chani still loves him. Even if she's pregnant with his child(ren). (We have like, zero information about how movie Chani feels about family and pregnancy and childrearing that would indicate that she would care one bit about her children's biological father being involved in their lives when he is otherwise busy being a space dictator.)

There are several categories of scenarios I can think of to get Paul and Chani interacting again (she goes back to him as a spy/assassin; she's brought back to the palace under some sort of duress, "for her safety" or even as a political prisoner) but none of them involve them being genuinely together as a couple. I could also see them not interacting at all for most of Dune Messiah. What I cannot see is any scenario in which she genuinely forgives him or ever fucking trusts him again. That shit is over and there's no getting it back.

[letsduneit]

okay here are some of my more specific thoughts:

paul saying he'll stay behind to cover the retreat doesn't mean that there is a need for someone to actually do this, though - remember, he just doesn't want to go south and at this point is kind of desperately trying to grasp at excuses to stay North.

shishakli being called a spy is actually what first made me realize the parallel! because it means she was hiding. she didn't pull a duncan idaho and valiantly face down the incoming enemies and go out in a blaze of glory- she laid in wait, secretly. we also don't know for sure that she was caught, or whether she ambushed them- that's speculation.

also, i really do think paul is calling the shots at this point. stilgar is such a yes man by this point in the film, as are the almost all of the others, save chani. paul says as much to gurney- that the fedaykin are all his followers now, not friends and equals. the fact that everyone else refuses to leave if paul doesn't is proof of this- regardless of who their leader technically is, they're following paul above anyone else, even into death.

and now more general points about why and how i arrived at my initial conclusion:

when writing meta, it's important to always analyze through the framework of the messages the film is trying to make with these characters. these kinds of media are tightly edited so that every shot contributes to overarching development. we're all just kind of inferring about what meaning things might have, but these motifs and themes are kind of the only benchmarks we have, so we should always use them to identify which interpretations are more likely than others. none of this brings us to an objective answer, of course- that's what makes it meta!

for example, there are two repeating motifs throughout the movie that my analysis of the scene would support and contribute to. the first is the theme that the atreides and the harkonnens are two sides of the same coin, particularly when it comes to paul as he leans more and more into harkonnen behaviors and mentalities. this is one of the biggest arcs in the film because it's so closely tied to paul's own character development, so you'll find hints of it in tons of scenes all throughout.

the second is the repeating theme of skeptics becoming followers. denis villeneuve does a great job of showing how paul converts increasingly skeptical groups of people into following him. we start with the fremen who believe in him from the moment of his arrival on arrakis; we have shadout mapes who believes in him after jessica identifies the crysknife; we have stilgar who initially seems very serious and reserved but becomes quite fanatical by the end. this is a deliberate pattern of progression. shishakli is the singular most vocal skeptic of paul and the prophecy aside from perhaps chani. for her to finally embrace the prophecy and paul completes the pattern that has been set up since the first movie.

we also have to consider where we are within the story at this point in time. paul has just made the decision to go south, knowing what it entails. a lot of people treat the water of life scene as the point of no return, but i think this decision to meet his destiny instead of avoiding it is the turning point for paul. this is the moment where everything starts to shift, where he finally embraces the idea of becoming the fremen's lisan al-gaib. it makes sense, then, that this turning point is where we see paul first make a harkonnen-like decision, and that this is where we see paul's biggest skeptic finally converted.

i think about it like this: which is more likely- that this scene is only meant to tell us that a fedaykin can take down 9 harkonnens? or that in addition to this, the scene echoes two massive repeating themes that underly the entire movie and underscore its central turning point- that of paul's harkonnen heritage and that of paul's increasing sway over even the most skeptical of fremen?

to be completely honest- i personally think it's more likely that paul allowed shishakli to stay behind instead of directly ordering it. but considering the sway paul has over the fremen, including shishakli, even in allowing it he has made a decision- one that his grandfather would approve of.

don't mind me i'm just thinking about the little ways in which the movies set us up to think of the baron and paul as inherently similar even before his heritage is revealed.

in dune part one, we see the baron's response to being forced into a retreat by the emperor: he has a harkonnen barricaded into the walls of arrakeen as a trap for the atreides when they arrive.

in dune part two, we see paul's response to being forced into a retreat south by feyd-rautha: he has shishakli, one of the fedaykin (also chani's best friend rip paul really took everything from her) stay behind in sietch tabr to ambush the harkonnen soldiers when they arrive.

both the baron and paul are cunning enough to find an advantage even in a seeming defeat, and both have a powerful enough sway over their followers that their followers will agree to walk into certain death for them.

what is most notable about this similarity is that it arises before paul reaches the south and before he drinks the water of life. the paul who makes this decision (or allows it) does not know he is related to the baron, and has not decided to consciously lean into his harkonnen heritage. this is just paul. and this is what he is already gravitating towards, long before he has a name to describe it.

[i-am-trying-my-best-okay]

So I was peer pressured into reading Dune, and this had the unfortunate side effect of me hyper fixating on two unimportant characters, causing me to be more invested in an imaginary plot line I created in my head.

So here I am.

The Harkonnen brothers don’t have a single conversation with each other in the book, and that’s sort of disappointing, but maybe that says something about how the Baron wanted to separate the brothers for his own personal vendetta. But here’s the thing about Rabban; it’s said in the book that he’s nothing but a sadistic brute, but I don’t think that’s actually true. For the one scene Rabban actually has, and not just a footnote of what he’s doing, the Baron is trying to trick Rabban into having a downfall, Rabban keeps asking all these insightful questions and it’s frustrating the Baron. In fact, throughout this entire scene, Rabban seems like he just doesn’t want to be there, that he has no interest in whatever political mind games the Baron is doing and just wants to go about his day. I think Rabban is much more intelligent than people give him credit for, I just think he has no ambition and just wants to do whatever he wants without being bothered. Is whatever he wants sadistic and violent? Maybe, but we never truly get his perspective on that, so much about him can be left up for interpretation. 

As for his younger brother, Feyd, he’s all ambition, in fact maybe that’s partly why Rabban stays away from politics; he doesn’t want to get in his brother’s way. Maybe Rabban secretly helps Feyd in the background, whose to say. Also, can we talk about how Feyd was basically raised by an actual pedophile? That probably adds a whole other layer on Feyd wanting to replace the Baron in terms of power. I was kind of hoping that in the book Feyd would kill the Baron and take that political power he’s always wanted himself, but he didn’t. Also, I think that Harkonnen brothers should have interacted with Paul more. The only time they talk is when Paul and Feyd are in that duel to the death thing, and they had such good chemistry. Like, Feyd was just trying to chat it up while fighting to the death, and Paul was just practically silent, it was fun. Imagine if they had met earlier, had a whole rival thing going on.

I think it has great AU potential if it was discovered that Paul was a Harkonnen when he was a child, and the two houses had to deal with that. The families could maybe use the chance to get close to one another under the guise of merging their families, all while both sides plot to destroy the other. At this time the Harkonnen’s are in running Dune, so the Atreides’ come to live with them there, all while plotting the other’s downfall. Paul and his new cousins on the other hand, form an actual bond that is very annoying for everyone involved. The three of them didn’t expect of bond of course; Feyd was planning to fake niceties and then crush Paul, Rabban was ready to be his brother’s muscle/self preservation, (also, apparently Rabban is much older then the other two, but for the sake of this AU I’m going to make him just a couple years older) and Paul was hoping to avoid his two weird cousins at all cost. Whenever the Harkonnen brothers would approach Paul at first he would probably just jump out the nearest window or something. But, through a series of misadventures, the three end up spending time together and are horrified to find out they actually like each other, something they each furiously deny when asked. But they end up doing everything together, and are complete menaces about it. They were so wrapped up in this strange new family bond, that when the two families made their attack on each other they were taken off guard. In the chaos, Paul ends up getting lost to the desert. Now, at this point, I think Paul is still a child, maybe like 10 years old or something, and completely alone in Dune of all places to fend for himself. 

This probably warps Paul’s personality over the years as he struggles to survive on his own, learning for himself the ways of the desert, now entering Paul’s feral era where he is practically one with the desert and bites people. Back with the Harkonnen’s, they were the side that won but the brothers still miss their quiet cousin. So they play their parts, for now, and then one day, with Paul being 17 now, Rabban was out slaughtering people, as you do, when he finds Paul again, who is currently single handedly bringing down his men. So the two reunite and it’s a good time, and they sneak Paul into their house to Feyd, who is also overjoyed to see Paul again. They get to talking, and I have this theory while reading the books that Paul doesn’t seem to care about doing what’s right or having power or anything; he just wanted security for the people he cared about. So when Feyd reveals his plans about wanting to be emperor, Paul is onboard, using his own powers as a Mentat and his new found knowledge of the desert to help. So then the book continues with it’s political power struggles, our trio secretly scheming against the Baron’s schemes, making sure Paul isn’t found out, some catching up and family bonding times, Rabban trying to be the voice of sanity as the other two were teetering on the edge with theirs in different ways, it’s a fun time. And it all comes to ahead when they dethrone the emperor, with Feyd now in charge. It all comes completely out of left field for the emperor and his allies, since the three pulled some next level mind games. So the three of them wait there, waiting for the Baron to come in with Feyd lounging on the throne and the other two standing on each side of him. The Baron is slightly pissed for sure, and Feyd challenges the Baron to a duel. After some taunting on both ends, Feyd wins, and the three of them go on their slightly co-dependent ways, ruling over the galaxy for better or worse (Probably worse).

[space-blue]

Dune, the mostly spoiler free review.

Spoilers will be under breaks.

Having slept on it (and since I got to bed at 4am I needed that), and having eaten enough sugar to kickstart my brain again, I can now confirm, wholeheartedly, that Dune is a masterpiece.

Hardly a hot take on the internet right now, I know. I'll say this, to start on a low note : Dune's greatest flaw is that the side characters (anyone outside of Jessica and Paul) can be left wanting development. Some non-book readers might struggle to get attached.

The film simply doesn't have time to deliver narrative, mood and emotional characters the way Fellowship of the Rings did, as I often see the film compared to LOTR. Unlike LOTR, Dune has not shot part 2, and it doesn't have enough action beats/plot beats to give you engaging character interactions for 1/3 of the story.

As a result some characters seem to be "seen in passing". Which... Bothered me a little at 3am, but has since faded. My memories turn to Jessica and how incredible Fergusson was. Absolutely show stealing. And Skarsgard!! Yeesh, the Baron Harkonnen does not need more screen time to be intimidating...

All the cast delivers. The visuals, design, costume, photography... It's clear to me everyone involved in this was at the top of their craft and giving it their all for a career turning point of a production. I even struggle to believe book 2 could land such a punch again, I mean, I've rarely been punched in the face this hard by a movie...

I mean, I'm not the type to be into spaceships or anything. I even struggle with models in the Star Wars universe and I published 58 fan fics for that fandom so... And yet in this film, hah... When the Atreides ships are introduced (you see these big transports in the trailer) I was like "No. He didn't... OMG the madlad, he did." — the music, the visuals, the scale... And then there's the thopters, and I was having moments of prescience myself, seeing actual ship/spaceship nerds rise up, foam frothing at the mouth. Modeling thopters and making videos about them for years to come.

The audio was loud, bold. The music alien. The sound mixing done so well I had a snappy thought 2min in, along the lines of "I hope Nolan sits to this film and learns something about sound mixing from this" (don't @ me, I'm still spicy about my viewing of Tenet).

In short, Dune is spectacular. It oozes with mythos and charm, feels lived in, intimidating yet beguiling. The plot is as sound as the book's the visuals are a cinema/SFF fan's wet dream, the acting and production value are stupid crazy, and the only drawback IMO — for non book readers — will be the "in passing" characters (like Raban, Piter, Gurney, Hawat... Who simply don't have the space and time to shine yet) and the ending, which is 100% "INSERT CD 2"

It feels jarring and leaves you begging for more. But book readers probably won't feel the same pang, since we can now close our eyes and image how bonkers part two can be in such visuals.

I've over-heard old french people saying it was super boring and slow and... lol I can't disagree more, but then again the trailer does market an action movie, and the film is not any more action packed than BR2049 was. When the action comes calling it's big, fast... When it isn't, the movie is moody, deliberate, and meticulous.

It won't be for everyone, but if you've so much as "enjoyed" the books, you'll be having the experience of a lifetime.

Before I delve into some mild spoilers I'd like to make a disclaimer: Denis has begged people to see Dune in cinema, and I was thinking "of course, what film maker wouldn't want people in cinema?" but also suspected he might want the numbers in order to get part 2 started.

I owe him an apology for these impure thoughts. You MUST watch Dune in cinema, not for Denis or part 2 (though, come on...), but for YOURSELF. There is not a single home cinema set up that can do justice to this film. It's the definition of why you go to the cinema for. It's epic in scale, it makes you jump at startling moments, it punches and screams at you, and makes you squint at others, and you walk out of there with a sense of having witnessed something like... To me, like Interstellar. Remember seeing that docking sequence scene in the theater and walking out being like "holy shit" ? Well Dune is very much like that. It was made for the big screen, and anything short of IMAX or Dolby ATMOS would be a disservice to both the film and yourself.

I will be seeing it in France the instant it comes out in September. It begs rewatching.

Now for some spoilery thoughts (mild spoilers, and a warning for further spoilers below).

The film takes surprisingly little time to delve on certain topics. Like the spice. Sure you're told it's important, and the economics that drive the story make it feel important, but not nearly as much as I suspected it would be. There is no clunky exposition on the topic (lol no fucking time for that!) no scene where someone shoves spice in your face and goes “oh but blah blah spice must flow”. It’s said in passing and newcomers better hold on to their seat and pay attention.

Sadly though a fair bit of the dialogue was expositional imo, and too little of it over all felt like that heart warming moment between Paul and Leto. It's not a big drawback, but since I enjoy more character driven stories, I regretted the lack of general emotional investment.

On the point of emotions though, I was taken aback by Jamis! The scene of him in the trailers "I'll show you"... creates a sort of very subtle and implied dynamic that was probably one of the biggest heart punch for me, and started driving home how dire Paul's visions can be. I suspect some viewers won't interpret it the way I did though.

THE VOICE WAS SO WELL MADE YOU GUYS!! The thopter escape scene was always a "meh, sure, they get away" moment for me in the books. Good teamwork between Paul and Jessica... But *hearing it* was a completely different business. I was at the edge of my seat, I LOVED IT.

There's also a lot of actual signing in the film! And the Sardaukar don't speak english but a super guthural language. Kind of like making a conlang merging German and the Black Speech of Mordor and giving it to a Danish to speak. Felt very cool.

The shields were just as badass as you think they'll be. The slow impact weapons are just... *chef kiss*

Finally some heavy spoilers on book story details (jihad, Muad'dib, some characters) :

There is no mentions of Jihad, but not because it's avoided. The visions of a fight Paul has are rare, and he mentions them once. At that time he says war or massacre but not Jihad. I didn't notice until I was asked.

He also doesn't chose the name Muad'Dib. If I recall that's right after killing Jamis, but doesn't happen here, even if we see the literal muad'dib in the desert. It's also fine. Those scenes were at the very end, and I felt like slamming newcomers with such a significant moment with alien language at the very end might be a mistake. I'm curious to see how it's handled in part 2 though.

I was looking forward to Piter... His role is uber minor. As much as Hawat's. Like, the Bull that killed Leto's father gets more screen time, funnily enough. There's a heavy imagery around it that's going to fuel many video essays.

[alittlefrenchtree]

Helloooo! Guess who’s back? The Dune notes! yaayyyyy!

ok, chill.

SPOILERS BOOK 2 : MUAD’DIB (Chapters 1-4)

Chapter 1:

I’m still struggling to get all the politic aspects and understand who’s on which side but that’s not what I’m focusing on right now. Once I’ve read the whole thing and had the whole picture, I’ll study all the details of this part of the story.

I loved this quote:

in the French translation, and thought it was beautiful to see Arrakis through Paul’s mind and eyes only to find out that the original quote said stuff like Cheddar-colored. Damn you, American people.

Chapter 2:

Bless you, Muad’Dib, your father and Princess Irulan. Might your words be heard loud and clear on every planet of every universe.

I love, love, love this chapter. This whole conversation between Hawat and the Fremen, the world building made through it and through the Fremen is really good. I don’t think the Fremen has a name because he’s exactly what he describing of his people. He’s only one to serve the whole clan.

Many interesting stuff about the conversation and the scene.

First, I wonder if the Mentat’s abilities can work on Fremens? This part seems to say that they can’t : "But still he did not know what this Fremen wanted and this rankled. Mentat training was supposed to give a man the power to see motives." Then here again : "He said worm. He was going to say something else. What? And what does he want of us?" It’s funny to see how Hawat’s powers seem to be limited after we saw part of what Jessica and Paul were able to do.

"You must make a water decision, friend."

is my favorite quote of the chapter. The whole chapter is built to make Hawat and the reader really understand how primordial the water is. Blood doesn’t exist in the Fremen’s mouth, life is all boiled down to water. They doesn’t seem to care about the Spice either. When he’s thinking in terms of currency, it’s not about the Spice or money, it’s still about water:

"You think we have the Byzantine corruption. You don’t know us. The Harkonnen have not water enough to buy the smallest child among us."

It’s one thing I find fascinating about sci-fi/fantasy writers who are creating whole new worlds in different universes. It’s not only about thinking about crazy new technologies or super powers or anything like this. It’s when they shift the whole logic because context is different and you see it in the smallest details, in ways of speaking, in turns of phrases. It’s where you find so much richness for a fandom. And get so easily immersed in the said new universe. Every time I'll get really thirsty in the future, I'll think about this chapter. And the water decision.

I’m guessing water is one of Dune’s real plot? Every stranger coming to Arrakis comes for the Spice, thinking it’s the goldmine of the planet, the way to conquer it and truly owns it. But it’s not and the Fremen are still the one owning the desert powers because they’re the only one seeing that Arrakis needs to be ruled by water and not by the Spice? I don’t know. But that’s where my guesses are heading at the moment.

About this,

I’m really curious about how they’re going to handle on screen the deep religious roots of a large part of the story. We all know how tricky it can be. Is it going to be tone down? Are we going to see people living in the desert worship a young white male? We’ll see.

Chapter 3:

It’s cute to see how, even if Paul sees himself as a some kind of monster or as something else and undefined, he’s still sensitive to what he sees with his powers of prescience. But it's difficult to get a grip on what he is exactly, and how he feels.

Ok-- wait a minute. Last time I’ve heard about Liet, it was supposed to be a local divinity and now… Liet is Kynes. Ok. If you say so. — does it mean there going to be some kind of competition between Liet and the Muad’Dib? About who has the biggest divine aura? About who’s supposed to lead?

Anyway, what Kynes says, it goes with what I mention earlier. About how all the different people who came on Arrakis have failed to make it a Paradise because they were all focused on the Spice instead of the water.

I love how convenient Paul and Jessica are as characters to introduce the descriptions of every room they step in. You can go wild on details and just be like that’s not me, the bene gesserit/mentat/whatever Paul is things are calling for all. the. details. I should do that. Only write characters who allow me to naturally waste 7 lines of words on the pattern of a wallpaper. Frank Herbert doesn’t do that, but I definitely would.

Again, it’ll be interesting to see how Tim is going to handle the Paul and Kynes’ confrontation/conversation. We’ve seen him touch on these kind of feelings and behavior with The King but Paul seems to require a lot more of everything. So I’m impatient to see.

And I’ve already leaked the quote but let's look at it once more time. Quickest way to prove Timmy is the right cast for Paul.

"In this moment he'd give his life for Paul, she thought. How do the Atreides accomplish this thing so quickly, so easily?"

Because that’s what Timmy does, right? Makes people ready to give their life for him.

Ok about Duncan… We’re back at it, right? He’s not dead until I’ve seen the body. And I didn’t see the body so, he’s not dead. I think? Paul’s abilities don’t seem to be 100% reliable (at least not yet) so even if he believes Duncan’s dead, he might not be. I certainly hope so. My boy Jason deserves more.

I still wonder how the power of prescience is working. Are the blind spots blind because Paul is living through them at the moment and can’t have knowledge of the immediate future OR would they have been blind even if he had looked in their direction long before?

I was also wondering if Paul was going to rely too much on the new dimension of his abilities and how long it was going to take until he realized he made that mistake. It was… quick but I guess it’s Paul, so it shouldn't be surprising.

And that fear litany ❤️ I could kill to write something as iconic and powerful. I could read it every day and still got the chills each time.

Chapter 4:

The Baron is like me, he needs to see bodies to believe in death. I’m delighted to have common ground with that creepy, disgusting asshole. Delighted. To be honest, I’m not that interested with the Baron himself. So far, he’s been nothing but clichés over clichés and really not the best ones. He’s the evil character so he's all the kinds of evil. Shocker. I usually like evil characters (very often more than I love "good" ones) but not him. Really not him. I hope it'll change but I’m afraid he’s too far gone and beyond redemption.

I’m very interested by what’s Hawat is going to become though. Will he turn his allegiance to the Baron? It kind of remind me of Teal’c in Stargate SG-1, but the other way around. The Baron opposes two things : Hawat’s loyalty and his admiration towards those who calculate without emotions. Based on what we know about Mentats and how the human part carried by the human body overpower the Mentat’s education and training, I’d say loyalty should win? And the part of me who is part Mentat agrees on the loyalty so, we’re all good. But it can be an interesting storyline, so I’m waiting for it.

What’s funny about this quote

is that he could very much be talking about Paul and still be right. Or the baby sister. Or Lady Jessica. All Harkonnens are waiting.

And what’s also funny is how The Baron thinks of Feyd-Rautha. In addition of being absolutely disgusting there are some similarities between what the Baron wants for Feyd and what Paul is meant to be/already is.

I wonder if Feyd is meant to become some kind of opposite alter-ego to Paul. A better, more subtle opposant than the Baron. Could be fun.

You know what? Every time I start this kind of post, I said to myself: I'm pretty sure I haven't that many notes this time, it should be quick. And then here we are again 🤷🏻‍♀️ See you next time! 🌖💛

[atamascolily]

let’s talk about the Bene Gesserit

When Paul meets Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohamian of the Bene Gesserit, he identifies the order’s purpose right away: “Politics.” The Reverend Mother is surprised, and gives Jessica the side-eye to see if Jessica has spilled secrets, but Jessica denies it. I don’t know whether to believe Jessica or not here because Jessica has told Paul all kinds of things, but I’m going to assume Jessica is telling the truth here, and this is supposed to be yet another sign Paul is super-smart, super-observant, the Chosen One, etc, etc.

But I want to know: what does the rest of the galaxy think the Bene Gesserit do?

Pretty much every female character in Dune who’s not Fremen is Bene Gesserit, or at least has some degree of training from them. All of them are linked to powerful men: Jessica is a ducal concubine and mother of his heir; Margot is wife to Count Fenring (and presumably only allowed to marry him and be a Lady in her own right because the Count is a “eunuch” and can’t bear children); Irulan is a princess and the Emperor’s daughter. Even the Reverend Mother, once the superintendent of the Bene Gesserit school on Wallach IX, is now the Emperor’s Truthsayer. And the narrative goes out of its way to mention that Thufir Hawat specifically purchased Jessica for Duke Leto, and cleared her for the Atreides household.

So, are the Bene Gesserit seen as a religious order? A finishing school for ladies of the ruling class? Are they the futuristic equivalent of medieval nunneries, except with less embroidery and more manners? All of the above?

In reality, the Bene Gesserit are all-female order on a self-directed mission to provide “a thread of continuity in human affairs”. They do this by a secret breeding program, separating humans from “animals” by means of various tests (one of which Paul undergoes in the novel’s opening scene). The Bene Gesserit schools are filled with the (presumably female) offspring of this breeding program, as well as any other genetic lines they’re interested in manipulating. Many, like Jessica, are kept ignorant of their heritage by the higher-ups so they can secretly breed back into the line (ironically, a standard technique in animal breeding!). Apparently, the BG have found out the hard way that outright incest is a hard sell, so they keep the participants in the dark, which is... horrifying. The BG’s stated goal is to create a Kwisatz Haderach, a man who can look into the void that no BG [female] Truthsayer can see, “into both feminine and masculine pasts”.

Leaving aside the irony of an all-female organization seeking to create a man more powerful than they are, I don’t understand why the Kwisatz Haderach has to be male; it seems like a female Kwisatz Haderach who can see into both her male and female ancestral lines ought to be equally possible. Even if you argue that those male ancestral memories are inextricably linked to a Y chromosome or some other vaguely scientific rationale, it’s a) never explained anywhere in the book that I can recall, and b) Paul’s sister Alia will have this ability--and in fact will be haunted by at least one male ancestor to her extreme detriment. Maybe the BG are trying to create a male Kwisatz Haderach because they think men are easier to manipulate and control? Or do they not know what they’re talking about?

The Emperor knows the BG are useful; that’s why he has a Truthsayer and presumably was okay with them training his daughter, but he doesn’t seem to know the BG are manipulating his wife and concubines to make sure he has only daughters, so they can marry said daughters to a match of their choice. The BG orders Jessica to do the same thing, and she defies them because Duke Leto really, really wants a son. Does that mean the BG are always supposed to bear female children to keep the order going, or did Jessica and Irulan’s mother receive special orders on account of their positions? I don’t think this is ever made clear, and it bugs me.

I also don’t understand why the BG don’t... do something (anything!) when Jessica defies them and has Paul instead. Granted, Paul is the duke’s heir, he’s protected from assassins in general, but it seems like the BG might have had some way of influencing/punishing Jessica for her disobedience and they... don’t. At all. And I don’t get it. If Jessica’s act is so courageous--as Irulan later assess that it is in her history--what are the consequences?

The Reverend Mother sarcastically says Jessica defied the orders and had a son because she was arrogant enough to think she could produce the Kwisatz Haderach at last. Jessica says she suspected the possibility, but what made her think that? She doesn’t even know who her parents are! She hasn’t passed the final tests to be a Reverend Mother (and her defiance presumably knocked her off that track because the BG can’t trust her with that level of power), so why would she think HER SON would be the Chosen One? I don’t get it. Is Jessica being sarcastic here, too?

The Reverend Mother says Jessica did it because she loved Leto and didn’t want to disappoint him, which Jessica admits to. The Reverend Mother’s mostly angry because her plan was to wed an Atreides daughter to the Harkonnen heir and maybe put a stop to all the infighting between the two families (or compound it further? or for other reasons that only make sense when you learn who Jessica’s father really is?) Now with Paul as the heir, that’s not possible--because marriage is all about biological progeny, property, and heteronormativity in this book--and the Reverend Mother is annoyed mainly because the BG might lose both bloodlines in all the forthcoming violence.

I guess this begs the question of to what extent a BG agent is their own operative, and to what extent they are controlled/under the influence of the order as a whole? The Reverend Mother seems sympathetic to Jessica, saying, “Each of us must make her own path,” which implies some degree of independent agency. She also sees that Jessica has been teaching Paul the BG Way, and “I’d have done the same thing in your shoes and devil take the Rules”. And she encourages Jessica to train him in the Voice, because she thinks that’s the only way Paul’s going to survive the Harkonnen treachery to come (which she knows about because she’s presumably privy to much of the Emperor’s behind-the-scenes scheming with the Harkonnens).

And then the Reverend Mother walks out “with not another backward glance” and we don’t see her again until the final scene. “The room and its occupants already were shut from her thoughts.” And Jessica is freaked out by the fact the  Reverend Mother is crying as she walks away.

Why is she crying? Does she genuinely love Jessica as her “own daughter” as she claims, and she regrets that Jessica is either going to die or be a fugitive with a price on her head once the Harkonnen trap is sprung? Is she upset about what could have been, and wasn’t? Is she regretful of all the genetic material and possibilities, thousands of years of careful work and preparation obliterated by forces she has no intention of stopping? All of the above??

I don’t know why the Reverend Mother shows up to test Paul’s humanity at the beginning. Is it because she’s curious? Or does she have no choice given Paul’s lineage, and her suspicions/Jessica’s assertions that Paul really might be the Kwisatz Haderach? Did Jessica ask for it, because she knows Paul needs this test in order to move to the next level in his training and she’s not emotionally equipped to administer it? All of the above?

And the Reverend Mother looks straight at Paul, saying outright that she sees the possibility/potential for him to become the Kwisatz Haderach and walks away... why??

Conclusion: The Watsonian explanation is that the BG talk a mean game, but they’re not as smart as they think they are. The Doylist explanation is that Frank Herbert wanted to set up his plot just so and didn’t care if the BG looked stupid in the process.

But this got even weirder when I realized there was an appendix in my edition (which I had never read before) claiming to be an in-universe “Report on Bene Gesserit Motives and Purposes” written for Lady Jessica “immediately after the Arrakis Affair,” which comes to the exact same conclusions.

The report does clarify that the BG expected the child of Jessica and Leto’s daughter and Feyd-Ruatha Harkonnen to have a high probability of being the Kwisatz Haderach. So Jessica’s decision to skip ahead on the program a generation wasn’t such a long-shot after all.

Except: “For reasons she confesses have never been completely clear to her, the concubine Lady Jessica defied her orders and bore a son”. So Jessica herself doesn’t even know why she did it...!! But she must have known some of this, because why else would she train/test Paul the way she did, or admit to the Reverend Mother she thought it was possible in the first place?

The writer goes on to note that BG knew teenage Paul had prescient dreams, the Reverend Mother failed to mention that his humanity test had broken records in her report (not mentioned in the book itself!!);  that the BG knew that spice could amplify psychic powers... and did nothing to stop Jessica and Paul from going there and eating a fuckton of spice; and didn’t make the connection that the rumors of a guerilla prophet leader born of a Bene Gesserit mother and destined to be the savior might have some connection to the two people who had disappeared shortly beforehand (!!!); plus some stuff about their dealings with the Spacers’ Guild and the complications of a higher-order nexus they couldn’t see past, which ought to have alerted them that someone more powerful than they were was messing around with the future.

“In the face of these facts, one is led to the inescapable conclusion that the inefficient Bene Gesserit behavior in this affair was a product of an even higher plan of which they were completely unaware!”

And on that note, the report ends and I just... cannot believe that Herbert deliberately lampshades the BG’s incompetence--and then concludes that “God [aka the author] did it”. Because unless I missed something important and Paul meddles with the past somehow, I don’t know how else to interpret this...

I suppose this report might be written by an unreliable narrator--like every other in-universe document in this book--but then what is even the point if we never get any answers..?

[stockwellarchives]

“[Stockwell said,] I heard that Dino De Laurentis had rented the studio, that they were building the sets, that DUNE was going to be done, and that David Lynch would direct it,’ the actor remembers. ‘So, I put on my mental calendar that, before I left [where he was filming To Kill a Stranger], I would get over there and see if DUNE was being cast, and if I had a chance of getting in it. The next to last day of shooting, we had some stuff on the edges of the back lot, so at lunch, I asked Juan Lopez Moctezuma if he would be kind enough to get me an introduction to the DUNE people. Sure enough, I met David in the cafeteria, and it turned out, much to my surprise, that we had met once before, years ago. I said, “David, I love DUNE. I think it's great that you're doing this project, and I would LOVE to be in it.” I just flat out put my cards on the table. He thought for a second, then he had to tell me that the movie, at that point in time, was cast. So, I wished him all the best with DUNE and said goodbye. I left Mexico City and came back home [New Mexico], then went to LA for a TV show. 

“‘Suddenly, I got a call from my wife, saying that my agent had called. I thought it was about another project, also being done in Mexico, by the first company that I had worked with down there. So, I called and my agent told me it was DUNE. I jumped up and down, very happy. He said they wanted me for the part of Dr. Yueh, and of course, I said to accept it. I finished [To Kill a Stranger], went back to my home, and made a telephone connection with David Lynch in Mexico City. What had happened was that John Hurt, who had originally been cast in the role, had found a schedule conflict and backed out of DUNE. Because I had fortuitously met with him in Mexico City, David immediately went with me. 

“‘But the funny thing is, on the phone, the first thing he did was to apologize. He said, “If my reaction looked strange when you came into the commissary down there in Mexico City, please forgive me, but I had heard you were dead.” Whereupon I assured him that THAT information was incorrect.’ Feeling ‘plenty alive,’ as he describes it, Stockwell couldn't control his enthusiasm about DUNE. ‘My first reaction when I heard I got the part was, I couldn't care less which role it was because I just wanted to be in this movie,’ he says. ‘Then, I read the book again to refresh my memory. I thought of it as a part with a good deal of dimension to it. Yueh's not just a soldier. He has some guts. If I had chosen a character to play in this film, I think that he would have been among my first choices.’ 

“Stockwell also feels positive about his collaboration with director David Lynch. ‘David is just great to work for,’ Stockwell explains. "He has enormous respect for actors, and actors really respond to respect, let me tell you. If you want to get an actor pleased and doing his best work, just show him respect and you'll get it.....and love. David has that. He's not a technician who's only interested in the effects and the camera. His concern is the drama going on the screen. That, to me, makes a good director. And that's the kind of director with whom I enjoy working. DUNE was a lot of fun.’ The actor's admiration extends to producer Rafaela De Laurentis, whom he credits for carrying the project to its successful conclusion. Like many other production members, Stockwell had read Frank Herbert's novel years ago. An avid DUNE fan, he was well aware of the inherent difficulties of translating the Herbert masterwork from print to film. ‘At the time I read the book,’ Stockwell explains, ‘I NEVER thought of DUNE in terms of a movie, because there's so much internal stuff happening. If somebody had handed me the book and asked me about making it into a movie, I would have read it in a different way. I still would have been sceptical, because the obstacles to its conversion into a film were formidable. I think that fact was proved with the efforts of various other filmmakers to bring it to the screen, and failing. It wasn't until Rafaela De Laurentis tackled DUNE that it came about. I've worked with many wonderful, wonderful producers. But, in all honesty, I must say that Rafaela is the hottest producer with whom I've ever worked. She has the knack for it. It's as natural for her as walking is for a baby. It just comes so easy to her, that everyone feels at ease. You're not going to take advantage of Rafaela, because of her strength, but she doesn't put undue pressure on everybody, and things work themselves out because of her attitude. She's remarkable.’ 

“Despite his previous experience filming in Mexico, Stockwell admits that the shooting conditions for DUNE were ‘pretty rugged.’ He adds, "but, I was fortunate, in that my costumes were made of simple cloth. David has this thing for RUBBER. He has a fascination - you could even call it a PASSION - for rubber. He feels that nothing looks like rubber, and he's correct I'm sure. Working with the designer, he designed all the soldiers' outfits to be made out of rubber. Some weighed 160 pounds. The lightest ones, I think, were 70 or 80 pounds. All out of rubber, in the summer, in Mexico! So, you had many people passing out. As I said, I was lucky because I just wore a light cloth costume. I was down there for eight weeks, and I shot for six. I knew about the smog and the altitude. Their air pollution in Mexico City is pretty wicked. It's worse than LA. I think it's the worst in the world. But everything that I did on DUNE, was shot on soundstages. So, I didn't have the good - or bad - luck to have to go out in the desert to shoot. That must have been rougher still.’ 

“Shooting in such a large city far away from home for a long period of time can instill a sense of isolation among a film company. Yet, according to Stockwell, the loneliness blues didn't infect DUNE. ‘You didn't really have time to feel isolated,’ he says, ‘even if you weren't shooting every day, which was the case with many of us. Mexico City may be a big town, but the hotels where production people were placed were all in a central location. A long taxi ride to the studio, by the way. Most of the talent stayed in the “Pink Zone” two or three different hotels, all within a few blocks. If you were working, then, of course, everything was taken care of. But if you weren't then you would be walking around the block and there would be Sting, or Max von Sydow, or here comes the cameraman. If you went to dinner, there would be Rafaela and a group at one Italian restaurant. Go to another restaurant, and there would be David and somebody else. It became like a film festival because of the international atmosphere.’ 

“Stockwell found working with the international cast to be a pleasure. ‘It's a very gratifying feeling whenever you work with really top-notch, world-class actors,’ he says. "Of course, it does one's ego good. But, also it's very, very enjoyable, because you're aware of their competence, their professionalism and their total commitment. You can count on those actors, and that makes your work easier. I'm a big fan of Max von Sydow [who plays Imperial Ecologist Liet-Kynes]. It was a gas to meet him and share a scene with him. That was a trip. There aren't too many people who I get a little flustered about. But I was really impressed. He's very down home, personable and sweet. A very sweet man. He told me that he had admired something that I had done, and that just floored me. To have someone whom you really admire tell you that he liked something you have done is really great. It makes you feel wonderful. I also very much enjoyed working with Ken McMillan [who portrays the evil Baron Harkonnen]. He's a very dedicated, madman kind of actor. Ken and I spent quite a bit of time together on days off. We would go visit some little town or something. I enjoyed his company. He's an actor's actor if ever there was one.’ 

“Stockwell's favorite scene in DUNE may turn some moviegoers' stomachs. ‘I believe that, after people have seen the film, they'll remember it,’ he comments. ‘As everyone knows, Dr. Yueh is working for both sides. At a certain point, before all hell breaks loose, when everyone is aware that there's a traitor in the house of Atreides but not WHO, there's a little scene in Dr. Yueh's autopsy lab. Bodies of Harkonnen soldiers are laying around. A new body has just been delivered. Yueh has a kind of X-ray arrangement above the table. You see him with this body lying there, and suddenly he sees something imbedded inside the body. It's a tube with a message for him from the Harkonnens, which has to do with the plans for overthrowing the House of Atreides. Whereupon, he is obliged to take a scalpel and SLICE THIS BODY OPEN, then reach his hand into this body and fish around to find the tube! We shot the hell out of this scene, close-ups of my hand going into this body and fishing around. It was a big makeup deal. They had a fake body which was fantastically well done Everyone on the set was queasy from watching. If it had been my first movie, I probably would have fainted. It was pretty weird.’” 

Lofficier, Randy, and Jean-Marc Lofficier. "DEAN STOCKWELL - THE TRAITOR OF DUNE." STARLOG Magazine, January 1985.

[fuckyeahisawthat]

i rewatched Dune Part Two recently and one of the most striking shots for me was the one of the Fremen attacking the Sardaukar on wormback, while holding the Atreides flag.

Like, we just saw the Sardaukar forming up with their numerous flag bearers, even trying to maintain their flags raised after the nuclear detonation (in a shot that mirrored the famous "Raising the Flag in Iwo Jima" statue to me btw, nice nod to imperialism).

And then the Fremen arrive, but they're not bearing their colors, their flags, not fighting in their own names, instead it's the Atreides colors. The colors of their new, imperially appointed rulers. New pawns in the warfare between Great Houses, soldiers instead of freedom fighters. Urgh. Wish i could make gifsets.

Yeah yeah yeah it's horrifying!! You are watching a national liberation movement get successfully co-opted by a superpower and it's awful!

They did such a good job making it feel creepy and foreboding when the Atreides symbols and motifs start re-appearing in the last hour or so of the movie. The second Gurney shows up he immediately re-introduces the Atreides way of looking at the world, and it's disturbing how easily Paul falls back into thinking like that, seeing the planet and its people as tools to be used in an inter-imperial power play. (It's right after Gurney tells him about the family nukes that Paul has the signet ring out for the first time since the beginning of the second act and we're like OH NO.) This is before he drinks the Water of Life; he is already starting to think like a colonial duke again some time before he declares himself one.

After the opening montage where we see the piles of bodies being burnt, we don't see the stylized Atreides hawk symbol for most of the movie. The next time it appears is on a vault of nuclear weapons, which are never treated as anything but a curse. It's so important that Stilgar and Chani are with Paul and Gurney when they open the vault so we can see their horror at these weapons and the gleeful, casual way Gurney talks about them. Chani is also seeing an aspect of Paul that she hasn't really witnessed before--Paul, the Future of House Atreides--and she does not like it.

And then of course the whole ending battle is making the point over and over again with repeated imagery that Atreides and Harkonnens are exactly the fucking same. All the imagery from the initial Harkonnen attack on Arrakeen in Part One--which at least shows the Atreides as brave in the face of overwhelming odds--gets inverted into something that's supposed to make us shudder. That scene of Gurney hacking his way through the crowd of soldiers with someone carrying the Atreides flag behind him? Nightmarish.

All of this stuff is super important to what the movie is trying to say because it is very very easy for us to buy into the Atreides' propaganda about themselves being the good guys. If we're paying attention to what Chani tells us in the literal first 3 minutes of the first movie, we already know we should be viewing them with a bit of critical distance. And while I think there is plenty in the first movie to make us side-eye their noble image (Leto saying we will bring peace to Arrakis?? fucking yikes dude), it's easy to forget that because Leto generally seems like a good dude to the people close to him, and he dies tragically so we never get to see much of what kind of colonizer he would have become. And I think it's easy to start thinking well if only Leto the more reasonable parent had lived then things wouldn't have turned out this way.

But fucking desert power?? That was Leto's idea. This is Leto's dream being realized. The plan was always to use the Fremen as pawns in the power struggle between the Great Houses. Maybe not quite in the way that Paul does cause he definitely goes off with it, but the end result is just as much a product of Atreides imperialism as it is of Bene Gesserit religious colonialism. The Atreides aren't inherently any more noble or benevolent than the Harkonnens in their intentions, they just have better PR. But the end result is exactly the same: a pile of dead bodies being set on fire.

[alittlefrenchtree]

Hello, I have a question because I'm so curious about it but it might be spoiler for a lot of people (i don't mind spoilers) but Paul.... is a good person or not? 😬 because in one of his vision he doesn't look good at all 🤣 so I'm curious

Oh, Nonny, thank you for sending me this simple but beautiful question brighting my long day of accounting and invoices work 🙌

Sooo... SPOILERS ALERT ! (not spoiling the movie but two whole books so, be careful)

There so many thing to say about your question I don't even know where to start.

First, and this is one of the aspect of the movie I like the least even if I understand the necessity of it, the movie is too kind on Paul and the Atreides in general. They are too good compared to what they are in the source material. Of course the Harkonnens are worse, so in comparaison you're like, ok the Atreides are the good ones, but they're really not. The Duke Leto is all about propaganda and there are many others aspects of their politic that would sit very wrongly if we put them in our world today.

About Paul... He's a bizarre creature. One thing for sure, he's not good. There is a whole scene of the Messiah that should make him the biggest asshole of all time. The scene is weird and feels a bit off in the book and I don't think it was a good idea for Herbert to write it that way so I'm pretty sure if a Messiah movie is ever made it won't be included in it but, yes. Based on the knowledge I have of the Dune universe, which is these two first books, it is really not hard to find many arguments to tell that Paul is a very bad person.

Yet, I feel like Dune is everything but a story where you need to identify a bad one or a good one nor that it is a story where you're going to watch two sides go at war to see who's winning at the end. I have this exchange early on about the movie in an ask like this, where the Nonny thought the Baron was an unimpressive villain and I had answered that it makes sense for me because... I feel like in the Dune universe as a whole, no one cares about the Baron. This isn't about the good side of the force VS the wrong side of the force, you know?

So it's hard to put Paul in a side or in a box like this. At the point I am, he's barely human, he's barely even a being and yet he's also very human in other aspects. It's hard for me to apprehend him first, and to apprehend him through a human perspective. I don't think either good or bad can imply to him. Him existing is a central point of the story alone. He's a character or an entity, who appears like both omnipotent and powerless. He's an insanely, mind-blowing creation to look at, to read, to try to understand and I can only imagine what a terrifying and yet exciting challenge he must represent for an actor.

I have yet to learn more about Herbert but from what I understand so far, the goal wasn't to write a good or a bad character. Or any good or bad characters in general. No one of them is good or bad (well the Barons and his surroundings are cliché-bad but for the others). Dune is about many things and about power, and its different natures and about religion and how the first and the second works together or side by side or against each other. The challenge to continue to adapt the story for movies aiming at a large audience is going to be atrociously complicated for all of them.

Not sure if it's the kind of answer you were looking for but, it's the best I can give at the moment 😅