#they're there for a reason and it's not mike having genuine romantic feelings

[mikesbasementbeets]

god i wish i were more articulate so i could actually explain my thoughts on all the milven/byler visual parallels...... people using the situational and framing similarities to "prove" that mike feels the same way about both el and will when truly the further you get into both relationships the clearer the discrepancies become between the emotional weights and contexts of each scene.... and the way they're both framed the same way to make those discrepancies stand out even more

[love-byers]

the first time i saw this, when i was NOT a byler shipper, i thought el was running TO mike. i thought we were getting a sweet moment where el runs to mike and he puts an arm around her or hugs her.

then i realized she was running away from him. 

and i was like, why?? they're supposed to be the couple why does she not want his comfort??

and even after will calls her out on doing mike wrong by lying to him, even after she sees that mike is attempting to talk to her and comfort her, that he's not angry at her, she still tells angela to lie to mike. more lies. that's how much she cares about keeping up the persona. had angela lied to mike, el would've continued lying to him the entire week. something she knows in her heart is wrong and not fair to mike.

this is a theme in s4. putting who you want to be seen as before being honest with your bf/gf. going above and beyond to preserve your lie, to be seen as who you want to be.

chrissy does that with jason. who she portrays herself as is completely different than who she really is and what she's really going through. jason has absolutely no idea chrissy is struggling and refused to believe chrissy would buy drugs, because chrissy didn't want to tell him. who knows how jason would've reacted if chrissy was honest, we don't know because chrissy didn't trust him enough to tell him. that's not love at all, that's sad.

this is a point in s2 as well. murray calls nancy out for being afraid to be her true self, and she stays with steve because she doesn't have to be her true self around him. she is her true self when she's with jonathan, and that's why they worked together. that's love.

the exact same thing happens with chrissy. the first time we see her genuinely smile is when she's with eddie. she's sweet and charismatic, and had she lived she totally would've gone to eddie's show, something you never would've expected from her, something her boyfriend, the person she pretends to love, would NEVER do.

robin and steve reinforce this too

you fall in love with the person who makes you feel accepted, the person who makes you feel like you can be who you are. the person you trust with your true self.

mike and el don't trust each other enough, they don't understand each other well enough.

they would have to change their behavior towards each other by leaps and bounds, and we're already at the last season. there is no time for that. stranger things isn't a multi season show about the complexity of romantic relationships and the healthy way to resolve problems. there is no time for that in just about any movie or show, especially a sci-fi show. you know what's way easier and way more likable? pairing your character with someone they naturally click with, who bring out the best in each other and for some reason can't help but be their authentic selves when they're with each other.

did it with jancy, like i said earlier

did it with lumax. when lucas and max talked on the bus max found herself spewing about things she'd never even said out loud before, and she had to stop herself. something about lucas just made her feel comfortable, like she could be herself and tell the truth. she trusted him.

"You're nothing like your brother, okay? You're cool and different, you're super smart, and you're like, totally tubular."

jopper too! joyce constantly had to hide things from bob, she was insecure about their family not being normal.

"This is not a normal family."

"It could be."

though bob had good intentions, the message of the show is not trying to be normal when you aren't. whatever it is about you that makes you weird or different, whatever you've been through that changed you, stay true to it. dont bottle it up and try to be someone else. all of vecnas victims in s4 were doing this, and it didn't end well for them.

they even did it with dustin and suzie. dustin constantly tries to impress max with his teeth, then in season 3 he says suzie thinks kissing is better without teeth. he doesn't have to be insecure about that or try to impress her. she likes him for him.

mike isn't comfortable being his true self around el either. he's insecure about his interests, he feels like he has to act older and cooler to impress her.

you shouldn't be with the person you feel you have to impress. you should be with the person who relieves that pressure, who makes you feel like being the authentic you is enough.

jonathan and nancy, lucas and max, joyce and hopper, dustin and suzie,

cough WILL AND MIKE cough...

[joydoesathing]

do you have any fun facts abt michael and wilma’s romance?? i rly like them

well, i can give you the exact dynamic they have going on XD

from the beginning of their romantic relationship, michael would be the one who is always visibly smitten by wil. he would flirt with her whenever he gets the chance, give her daily words of affirmation and so on so forth. and wil on the other hand would be all stone-faced, nonchalant or give witty or snide remarks to these acts, most people would wonder if they're really engaged or not

(because seeing mike being seemingly constantly ignored/put down by wil when he's being all lovey-dovey is really painful to watch, but mike swears it's fine)

basically the straightwoman and her idiot partner

but when michael stops being flirty and noisy and genuinely not in a good mood, that's when wil would start to worry. what makes her worry even more is if mike doesn't feel like talking to her

you see, she's complete ass at reassuring and comforting people, so when michael goes moody, she has little to no idea what to do and she knows that if mike's in a foul mood, it can last a while.

of course, nothing can make mike more happy than seeing his fiancee being so endearingly pathetic and helpless towards him, since most of the time their dynamic is him being the idiot and her being the pragmatic one.

actually, the reason why he even puts up with wil's constant ignoring and sarcastic remarks to his flirty advances, is related to that "gratification" he gets of making wil lose her general composure. tearing down that stoic and arrogant disposition she always has to reveal a utterly helpless side to his fiancee-

OK, that's enough horny intrusive thoughts from Michael

[gayofthefae]

They do this over and over. They apply tropes to Mike and El that require justification and context without the justification or context, and the audience takes it because they're used to seeing that trope.

Mike denying his feelings for El in season 1. That had no basis.

That trope is traditionally used for friends to lovers and/or queer people. A situation with stakes to admitting your feelings to yourself. "I could lose her friendship", "I don't want to be queer if I like him", whatever it is.

But Mike has no reason to deny his feelings. In fact, a boy surrounded by homophobia who is accounted by his character description to have not liked a girl before? He should be RELIEVED! By Lucas' account, he is way more focused on El than anything else. Consistency with that behavior would be for his feelings to be open and enthusiastic. But they're not.

Even in season 2, Lucas only ever denies being with Max or her reciprocating his feelings, and he only does this because the *stakes* are his and Dustin's friendship/Dustin's feelings. He has *stakes*. But neither, from the moment they meet her, ever deny their feelings for her.

Denying your feelings for someone is a trope used in friends to lovers, something they are repeatedly falsely marketed as, but they're not. Jonathan and Nancy are. Joyce and Hopper are. But Mike and El aren't - and neither are Lucas and Max. Two middle schoolers date after one week of talking is like...super common. The timelines are short making the time we spend with them seem longer, but these were not slow-burns. One of them knew that.

To deny your feelings for someone like he did, there are two options:

He genuinely did not have feelings for her before it was suggested and his confusion expressed was genuine.

What he felt for El being romantic feelings meant something for him otherwise. For example, if he felt the same way with El as Will and didn't want to have feelings for Will, he would also harshly deny his feelings for El out of admitting not that he liked El, but that that's what romantic feelings feel like.

So he's either telling the truth or it's queerness. But in no world is the stake El. It's nerve-wracking, but not terrifying. This is how dating works and he knows it.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If they wanted all these tropes, they wouldn't have kissed in season 1. If they wanted all these tropes, they might even have ended up together at the love confession in season 4. Then "scared of losing you if I told you the truth" "risk getting hurt by admitting it to myself" all make sense.

But those tropes go hand in hand with other tropes that are. not. present.

So they make no sense and, of course, need....other....justifications.

[chirpsythismorning]

Mike’s monologue makes so much more sense when you remember, he’s a frickin’ Paladin...

Paladins take their oath very seriously, and I do think that the whole theme of friends don't lie, is in part loosely inspired by this oath that Paladin's make, and how one of their most defining qualities is swearing by tenants of honesty.

All of us often overlook the D&D aspect in the show and how central of a role it plays, arguably even more so than parallels with the hundreds of movies they refer to for inspiration, and that's why this moment of Mike's monologue with El in s4, along with Mike's monologue with Will in season 2, is so important to consider if we want to be ready for what's about to go down in s5.

It's as if Mike is acting out an oath of devotion to these two characters. Though his oath to Will comes off a lot more genuine, it's unfortunately undermined slightly by the oath he presents to El, because they're both attempting to be an oath of devotion. By saying he loved El the moment he saw her and how his life started at that very moment, he's contradicting what he said to Will just hours before about how meeting El was simple dumb luck, as well as directly paralleling (and in turn undermining) what he told Will back in s2, which is that meeting Will/asking to be his friend was the best thing he's ever done.

Mike is inadvertently breaking an oath he once made, while also creating a new oath that stands on false grounds.

We've talked about the whole Watch out dominos, your dominos are gonna fall, and how it's related to Mike because he's in the shot equally to Argyle as he says it. But seriously you guys, it's related to Mike.

It's about the internal struggle he's been having for a few years now, growing and growing and him sort of refusing to examine it closely, because he knows that he's in a situation where he's supposed to be devoting himself to El. It's the expected path, and not only that but he also feels indebted to El after all she has done for him (also what the ga thinks which is why they argue even if Mike doesn't love El, they shouldn't break up bc it would hurt her.... Mike shares the ga's logic...), and so as it becomes more and more clear to him that she loves him and wants him to love her, he's trying his best to accept it, while also not being able to because he knows deep down he's breaking an oath that he already made if he follows through with this.

While I think there are a bunch of different factors at play, very likely Mike is aware of what his heart truly wants, which is why he's having such a hard time following through with devoting himself to El. Because deep down, he knows he's already devoted to someone else.

Luckily (tragically), Mike is breaking his oath because he thinks it's the right thing to do. Which just makes him even more of a Paladin if you think about it. The fact that him not wanting to break an oath is why he's been struggling for so long.

I don't think he knows that he's hurting Will while he's doing it, because the oath has more to do with him and being honest with himself, and I don't think he knows he's hurting El by doing this either, because he's under the assumption she wants him to say all of these things. He had doubts originally because there were reasons to have doubts as a result of Mike stalling for so long, but I just don't think Mike would go through with the monologue, if he thought that it wasn't what El wanted.

What makes Mike's arc so painfully tragic, is that he is led to believe at this point that El wants him romantically more than she needs him and that's the whole problem. He is unable to love her in the way she wants him to at this point, and he knows this. And he's still holding back.

That's another thing that's so sad about Mike going through with it in the end anyways, because I think a lot of his guilt stems from knowing that El wants him to love her, and yet he's unable to meet her halfway. And then going through with it in the end, when he doesn't truly mean it, that's... like he's breaking every code in his own book by doing this.

And it is likely going to really affect him.

The dominos are gonna fall. Not just for him, but for everyone.

The good news is that there is a standard way for this to play out, based on D&D rules and interestingly enough, it fits quite well with what s5 is likely to entail...

[castlebyersafterdark]

i think its so funny to see people discussing byler's positions during sex with missionary as the plain choice, as if their love itself isnt sexy? i can see how there's sex and then there's sexxxxx you know, but... i dont know... missionary being plain or not that hot or not feeling good unless you're making it about emotion is so odd to me. like, they can go deep with missionary. they can look into each other's eyes and be emotional with a slow cowgirl or ride. its always missionary=sweet=boring=cute OR super hot=sexy=doggy=reverse cowgirl.

maybe one is making love and one is having sex. but is it cheesy to say that the 'sappy' emotions are sexy too? super sexy cos its very vulnerable, whereas reverse cowgirl... i mean, you can hide. you can hide your face and yourself, and perform.

i love the idea of a missionary session where they're both super rough and passionate, it's not sappy or sweet at all, it's intense as theyre looking into each others faces and will is basically getting consumed and absorbed with mike totally on top of him and folding him in half. and i love the idea of a cowgirl session that was meant to start out rough but they both just press together and stare into each others eyes, super slow, instead.

Ha! 🙏 No, you're totally right and I definitely don't view the little jokes as saying its only the boring/sweet option. It's less the position itself and more... the way I think a lot of us view Mike and Will? Above all else they really truly crave that intimacy of being able to fully see each other, the eye contact is sweet and romantic but it's also super fucking hot? Watching their emotions play out, mouths parted and gasping, eyes - as much as they want to keep them open to watch each other - involuntarily shut in pleasure, maybe some tears falling. It's just funny in that for all the ideas the often get listed, it's gotta genuinely be the number #1. And for many reasons!!

Also so right - definitely missionary doesn't need to be slow and sweet. It's the perfect position for Mike to grab Will's wrists and push them above his head, arms stretched, hands pinned to the mattress, chest to chest. Maybe secured to the headboard sometimes, too. Legs grabbed, pushed wide, thrown over shoulders, experimenting with angles and flexibility. I think if they're switching it up a bit and he's topping, Will would love being in control of where Mike's legs go, they're so long and bendy, he's super flexible. Incredibly hot to see what he can handle, fold him basically in half. All the while they can watch each other's expressions, the twist of pleasure and effort as they push each other just a little further.

So totally agree. Everything is versatile! The thing with this duo is I think they have this incredible dynamic in the bedroom where on a turn they can flip from super sappy and sweet and romantic into intensity and rough passion and genuinely intermix it all. They just click. ❤️

[devoteyrheart]

13. what traits does your muse value in a romantic partner? / any and all!

(from) ― romance & relationship headcanons! // @60104 13. what traits does your muse value in a romantic partner? / any and all!

phew this would be easier to answer if it was the opposite: what things they avoid/hate. also, whatever i write doesn't mean that the characters would never fall in love or have feelings for someone who doesn't match the descriptions i gave. there's always so much at play when you fall in love / feel drawn to a person but anyway!

CHARACTERS MENTIONED: mike zackarias, ilse langnar, marlene, jean kirstein, eld jinn, gunther schultz,  annie leonhart

━━━━━━━━━━━━━.⊹˚⁀➷｡.━━━━━━━━━━━━

ilse:

shared values. devotion. purpose. earnest. compassion. and willingness to grow . - if you're scared of / genuinely don't like being called out on your bullshit, she's not the woman for you. - she doesn't tolerate people canceling on her for shit like 'i don't feel like it' 'i fell asleep', she's surprisingly very ruthless about that kind of disrespect, but if, for example,  her bf told her 'i really need to focus on studying for this big exam so we aren't going to hang out this week but i'll call you once every day' she would literally feel so attracted to him and just fall even more in love. she's not right in the head. ilse doesn't believe in soulmates, she believes in people CHOOSING each other and looking in the same direction and walking towards it side-by-side... so yeah... purpose and devotion ( to themselves / their goals, and to the relationship ) are v big to her. - she likes having fun, but play dumb games with her? make her pick between her family / friends and you? lmfao, she won't try to reason with you or meet you halfway: you're out. - you need to understand her family dynamic, or at least make an effort to. ilse's family dynamic is a il nuanced and, in part, she blames herself for it. surprisingly her family doesn't meddle much, but they're people who are "simpler" i guess, and they are very set in their ways and their family dynamic. they've experienced significant loss, and ilse is the first one in the family to leave their circle ( which was a very hard pill to swallow ). also ilse is the baby of the family by many years so you need to be someone who isn't a pushover but also won't engage with / start conflict no matter how provocative or protective they get. it's delicate and you need to know how to navigate it while still being yourself and not apologizing for it ( because if you do, they'll stop respecting you 💀). 

eld: 

compassion, loyalty, sense of humor, curiosity, and a sense of adventure.. but they can't be too hyper or disorganized. he loves and desires a calming/grounding presence. as much as eld feels drawn to people who are extremely spunky, that's not who he wants to build a life with. he's ok with someone who can keep in on his toes / roast him / call him out but only if it actually makes sense.   also: you can't be someone who yells, especially during arguments. this guy is literally a child of a yelling marriage if you ever raise his voice at him or if he finds himself raising his voice at you: you're out. he won't even explain himself. you also can't be someone who believes (blood) family is everything - if you encourage eld to reconnect with his parents in a meaningful and lasting way: you're out.

mike: 

compassion, neatness, and someone who values quality time and hanging out outdoors. also someone who doesn't try to change him? he spent enough years analyzing himself and getting to know himself and evolving to be the person he wants to be: he's not going to change. mike has grown to become calm person and he rarely engages in conflict not because he's averse to it but because he knows, damn well, that if he throws a punch the other person will get knocked out. younger mike very much still lives in inside older mike: don't bring him out. if you encourage mike to be aggressive in any way, you're out.  also, if you're religious, you're out. i'm so sorry, he just can't go back to that. 

gunther:

patience, organization, no pushiness, and loyalty... but with a bit of spunk. this man will swear he has no patience for nonsense but he loves a woman with a good sense of humour that can help him relax and bring out his laid-back side. someone who reminds him that he can be emotionally vulnerable. someone who is ok with the fact that he has a kid. he doesn't see his kid a lot ( i will touch on this at some point eventually ) but in the future he does want to spend more time with his child and if that's a problem for you: you're out.   

marlene:

good sense of humor is essential to her. also someone who sees through her cool girl half-façade. she wants to be treated like a princess and spoiled, its the truth. she can absolutely spoil herself, but urgh she wants someone else to spoiler. she has a 'if i'm too much go find less' mentality and if you can't handle it that's your damn problem. you gotta b a lil intense, even if you're quiet, or else marlene won't feel drawn to you. 

annie:

someone who understands the need for personal time and individual pursuits. she probably wants to sleep in separate bedrooms at times ( only at times, ofc she likes cuddling too )  and if you can't deal with it you're not the right person for her. annie appreciates a dry and sarcastic sense of humor so she values a partner who can match her wit. someone who is patient and soft but not an enabler or a pushover: annie sometimes wants things but doesn't pursue them, so someone who is encouraging without being overbearing is perfect.  also, you can't be afraid of confrontation. for her, it's ok if your shy/quiet/introvert whatever the fuck, as long as you have a very strong spine. she will literally get the ick if you're too soft.

jean:

someone who is willing to grow, evolve, and talk things out ( don't go silent on him, please, don't shut him out - he copes very poorly with it ). someone who doesn't have their head in the cloud and who shows genuine empathy and understanding towards others.

[grapesodatozier]

i hope you get well soon! i'm currently taking a break from physical therapy but i'm okay :) i do have a question though!

what made you ship wheelzier?

because you're the reason i'm so "normal" about wheelzier now so i'm pretty curious on what made you ship them!

- ♡

oh my god it's been so long this got totally buried in my notifs im so sorry!! thank you for your well wishes and your interest!!

tbh sadly most of the blogs and fics that got me into wheelzier are either deleted or inactive now ): but basically i saw some people talking about it, and it was the first crossover ship i ever got into so i was like "wait you can do that holy shit." and like, mike and richie are the two characters i am, as you put it, so "normal" about lmao like they're the characters i put the most thought into and love to analyze and write about the most, so i jumped at the opportunity. i also just think the losers club and the party fit really well together and there's a lot of interesting dynamics there and the franchises just mesh really well together tone wise, so that also helped. like, those are still the only two fandoms i've ever crossed over, so that helped for sure. and also like yes i love them both but the more i thought about it the more similarities i saw between them? and the more compatibilities i noticed? and how interesting their dynamic would be. bc like, they're both such attention givers if that makes sense? they both talk so fucking much and yet when it comes to needs i think they both focus more on other people but they both want attention and are both so surprised to realize when other people have been paying attention to them, or get so surprised to realize other people care about them and like them and don't find them weird, obnoxious, annoying, etc. and i just think two people like that being thrown into a romantic dynamic is VERY fun lmao. like, they both prove that they've been paying attention and they're like "hey woah what" lmao. they also both care SO much but are SO bad with words which is obviously incredible plot fodder lmao. also i feel like richie is always being a ham and being so touchy but hiding it with jokes and then mike just gives him genuine physical affection like he does all the time and richie just freezes like. o-oh. cool. and tries not to burst into tears lmaooo. they're both so repressed and have so much love to give and that's such an interesting dynamic to me!! also mike is smart and snarky which i think richie would love. and richie has such interesting tangents he can go on which i think mike would love. and i think they would both notice things about each other that others maybe don't notice bc of their similarities. guh i could think of a million little things about each of them and the reactions the other would have to it lol. also i love them so so so much and i want them both to have so much love. i have no idea if that answered your question lol but yeah i love them!! so yeah in terms of how i got into it i think it was a spiral as soon as i realized it was a possibility/made sense to ship my two favorite characters in all of media together lol

thank you again for the ask and sorry again for taking so long to get back to you!! it's so sweet of you to say i got you into them that makes me so happy!! hope you've been doing good anon!! <3

[mikesbasementbeets]

i’ve been thinking a lot about elmax recently and how it seems like the show is genuinely setting them up romantically, while also consistently establishing max and lucas as a romantic pair

keep in mind, this is the show that has been setting up byler since season 1. they seem to know what they’re doing when it comes to queer coding, so i refuse (for the purposes of this analysis at least) to believe they’re unaware of what they’ve been doing so heavily and blatantly with elmax, and also with max in particular (el too, but i’m focusing on max).

i've talked about why i think mike wheeler is gay. this is why i think max mayfield is bi. and elumax should be endgame.

queer coding of max mayfield

right off the bat: her name. max. just like el was at first, due to her shaved head, max is mistaken for a boy by those who don't know her. first the party, who see the name madmax at the arcade, and later dr. owens in season 4 (he might even assume that she's el's boyfriend). when she's first introduced by mr. clarke using her full name, maxine, she quickly corrects him. it's max.

this leads into the larger point of queer coding around max. her androgynous fashion sense, the way she carries herself, distancing herself from performative femininity, ie, playing video games ("girls don't play video games,"), skateboarding, making friends with an all male friend group, her general "tomboyish" presentation and attitude - all of it reads as heavily queer coded to me. i'm not saying that any of these things is necessarily queer, or mean that a person in real life is queer, but the way it all comes together in max feels like a purposeful character choice.

i'm not an expert in queer coding so there's probably a lot i'm missing, but one of the biggest signs for me is max's constant association with rainbows. the other characters have their color palettes, and max has rainbows. literally. as many times as mike and will have been coded with rainbow imagery, max is drowning in it.

and then there's the most important piece of queer coding... her relationship with el. i'll come back around to that though, because i want to talk about boys first. because clearly, max does like boys.

this shot is largely played for comedic relief, but it actually does something important for the narrative i think. it establishes again, with a max that has (once again) broken up with lucas for reasons she doesn't seem to have really explained, that max is attracted to men. my optimistic reading of it is honestly, "hey, we know what we've been doing here with max, so just in case you were thinking she's a lesbian... she's not." ...or if you want a different fun read of it... max realized she likes girls recently (i'll get to that) and is just making sure she still likes boys. ladies dig it? do they steve? oh, wait, yeah.

she's also talked about other boys with el in the past, showing pretty unambiguous interest in them

(these scenes are still so gay though seriously... "you must be an angel".... contrasting milven's scene where el didn't like mike's singing... rainbowsrainbowsrainbows... talking about kissing and then emulating a spin the bottle game, later introducing el to wonder woman while they're in bed together, waking up together always rainbows come ON)

and of course, the other most important part of this, her relationship with lucas, which is shown continuously to be one of real, romantic attraction. in season 2, this was mostly established through contrast with her relationship with dustin, who also had a crush on her. max and lucas start off by becoming close as friends, and then begin to develop a romantic connection. max and dustin, meanwhile, are established several times as not clicking in the same way that max and lucas do. they have heart-to-hearts that feel intimate and genuine, and, as steve and dustin discuss, are layered with the kind of "electricity" that denotes mutual attraction.

at the same time though, while we understand that it's genuine on both sides, we're shown that max and lucas' relationship is far from perfect.

for a couple that reads as endgame and has parallels with several of the other endgame couples, they also parallel a lot of the obviously not endgame couples. i'm gonna come back around to that too. first, the other thing.

romantic coding of elmax

elmax. honestly, i can't even get into everything i want to, because it's literally everything about them.

first of all, the start of their friendship is byler romantic coded

"i just walked up to you and i asked... it was the best thing i've ever done."

this sequence in particular though. this is. so bi coded i'm going insane. (also rainbows rainbows rainbows)

not hopper, not mike. you. (there's more to life than stupid boys. *HOLDS HER HAND*)

the next sequence is also pretty gay imo but is also kinda just gals being pals, so i'm gonna focus on the song, Material Girl by Madonna. this is definitely meant to be about eleven here, finding herself, away from mike (and it's also just a great shopping montage song), but the shot layout also subtly indicates that it applies to max and lucas too.

"some boys hug me, some boys kiss me, i think they're okay." and what about girls, max? what do you think of them? el? opinions?

(the clothes are emulating a literal rainbow flag behind her ok red yellow blue green purple and max is the orange she's part of the flag like shut UP i can't do this anymore)

and. okay. look, i'm not going to fully explain this one but i need to point it out.

getting back at the straight girl bullies (shown flirting with a boy) in front of a burger king. max taking off her sunglasses (we've talked about the symbolism of mike's shades in season 4) as they run away holding hands. taco bell coming soon. "there's more to life than stupid boys." like. am i reading way too much into this? (yes)

even back to their first meeting though, i'm seeing the seeds being planted. go ahead and read this as purely platonic admiration if you want, i don't care, but there's no way in my mind, especially after seeing seasons 3 and 4. like imagine you're a young bi teenage girl who's been hearing stories about this awesome girl with superpowers who saved everyone's life and then mysteriously disappeared, and then she suddenly mysteriously reappears, saves your life too, and walks in looking like this

personally, my tiny gay heart would stop.

yeah

but let's actually move on to season 4 for a minute.

season 4 was setting up canon bisexual max

i'm going to argue something here that i don't have a ton of actual evidence for: i think one of the reasons max broke up with lucas after season 3 is that she realized her feelings for el. max's arc in season 4 is all about her dealing with the trauma of last season, and guilt for her role in what happened. the guilt is extremely important to this. it's a big part in why vecna chooses his victims: not just kids with trauma, but kids who feel shame surrounding their trauma. most of that for max obviously has to do with billy's death. but i think there's something else that max is dealing with too.

as soon as i started season 4 i was struck with strong “queer max” vibes. first of all, her more feminine and rainbow splashed outfits from season 3 have been replaced again with the more tomboyish, androgynous style of season 2. and then there's the first sequence we get to running up that hill (which starts, funnily enough, on a scene of el walking down the hall at school, upset). the first time i watched this i was literally shocked because it read so explicitly queer to me.

first, max looks at group of girls (thinking about el, most likely)

her gaze trails after them, and then, next shot, max looks at a couple kissing

and then max looks at lucas

only after watching it again did i realize it didn't necessarily have to be queer coding (if you take it as max missing her friend and then, separately, her ex-boyfriend) but holy shit, if that's what they meant, they did NOT have to put the couple making out in between those two shots, with further shots of max looking away almost guiltily. we all know that lucas was max's boyfriend. they didn't have to precede that shot of him with the shot of the couple. that's already their established dynamic (and we haven't even learned at this point that they've broken up).

what's not been established yet though, is the idea of max and el as a couple. and i think..... that's possibly what's being hinted at here through max's perspective. the sequence of shots is so telling: 1. girl friends, 2. couple kissing, 3. ex-boyfriend. guilt. what i'm getting from this sequence of shots is that max's friendship with el is something she's thought about in a romantic light. max is making this association. and feeling guilty about it when she looks at lucas. whom, despite their closeness still at the very end of season 3, months after starcourt, she has since broken up with. the reason the show establishes for this is that max has been pulling away from everyone since billy's death, dealing with the fallout in her family, her mother's emotional absence and alcoholism, etc, and her own grief, guilt, and trauma around it. that makes perfect sense, and i'm not saying it's not true. but i think el moving away was also a factor.

it wasn't until season 4 that max was shown to have really pulled away, after el moved to california. maybe it's a reach, maybe it's nothing, but max as a character is so similar to mike, who was shown to have exactly this response to the byers' moving away: isolating himself and pushing away his friends, suffering his depression alone, and talking to no one about it. meeting el in season 3 showed us a new, bubbly happy side to max (that, yes, probably also came from the rest of her friendships and lucas, but el's is the one we were shown). max and el spend almost the entire season together, and max is undoubtedly going to be affected by her best friend moving away. especially if, like mike, it feels like she's losing more than a friend.

it's not just those shots though. when lucas tries to talk to her later, telling her he knows something's wrong... as soon as she turns around, there's a rainbow.

"right, yeah, there must be something wrong with me because i broke up with you."

then in dear billy, lucas confronts her again. and the language reminds me of karen's speech to mike in season 1. and jonathan's to will in season 4. "you know you can talk to me, right? i'm here for you."

guilt and shame are a big part of max's plot this season. the two characters most associated with that for max are billy and vecna - max feeling guilt over billy, and vecna using that guilt against her.

and those scenes also feel intentionally queer coded to me.

and then there's the dear billy flashback sequence.

while she's trying to escape vecna using her happiest memories, max is also comparing her relationships with lucas and el. they are both friendships. and they are both romantic. she thinks of them in alternating flashbacks. lucas, then el, then lucas and dustin, then el, then max's face, then lucas and dustin, then el, then max's face, and then this particular sequence: lucas, el, mike.

this may a reach, but... if she has feelings for el, she's probably feeling guilty around mike, too. this is the only shot of mike in the sequence. after this, in quick succession, it's lucas, then lucas, then lucas, and then el.

then lucas, then lumix snowball kiss, then max's face, then high fiving el, then her eyes open, and she breaks free

there are more shots of lucas than of el, but that's just the thing: max keeps trying to just think of lucas (because, as shown by the shot of mike, the way she's thinking about el makes her feel guilty, which is the opposite of what she wants), but el keeps coming back in. she thinks of her first kiss with lucas, and then thinks of high fiving el after they "dumped their asses." and that's the shot that breaks her out.

(and the song itself? 1. birthdaygate coded, 2. ROMANTIC. baby, darling, angel. you must be an angel. the voice of an angel saving victor creel from henry, el saving max. i'm reaching again. but. seriously.)

and then the flashbacks in episode 9 (and i'm not even touching el's flashback montage here). it's so difficult to be brief about this because they're literally doing SO MUCH here. i'm might have to make a separate post with every shot in this sequence because it's so good. (edit: here)

literally just. go back and watch the entire thing if you need to, but i need to go through this. elmax is unbelievably romantic coded this episode. there is no getting around it.

max chose the snow ball as her happy memory to hide from vecna in, but it didn't work. when vecna finds her, he says, "you can't hide from me, max." max turns around and, with a determined look, closes her eyes. closing her eyes almost seems like she's trying to keep hiding, but facing the door where venca is feels more like defiance. she's not going to try to hide anymore...

in the first shot, she spins the bottle in her mind, and her memories flicker from her first time meeting lucas, to the movies with lucas, to the start of her friendship with el, back to the spinning bottle, and then. the last two shots repeat. movie date with lucas, el approaching her in the street. but the lucas shot flickers shorter, and the el shot lingers, and then it's max's mom tying her hair too tight for the snow ball.

like maybe... this wasn't her at her happiest. forced conformity is killing the kids, right?

and the bottle flickers in again and it's el. it's max dancing in el's room, you must be an angel...

and then we come back to max's face and there are rainbows reflecting in the light

"is mike a good kisser?" el laughing, more rainbows

after that, she gets distracted by vecna and broken out of her memories, and when el shows up, max asks,

"are you real? did i make you?" she was thinking so strongly of her memories with el, she thought that it had worked.... and everything is romantic coded, there's nothing even to argue for here, it's just. there. seriously, like. just watch the episode. it's elmax.

after this the focus goes back to el mostly and it's still extremely romantic but i can't get into it anymore, i need to focus on max.

the way it all ends brings me back to the elumax question again. because right here, i'm clearly seeing elmax/byler vs. lumix/milven. paralleling mike's love monologue failing to help el, lucas' protection, both physically and in her mind, was not enough to save max.

that was el. that was el that saved her. (of course, she saves your life because of "friendship")

el's love for max is what saved her. not mike. not lucas. elmax.

going back to the latter half of season 3... el and max's relationship progressed very quickly through shared trauma, and max is the one there for el all season... and when billy dies, el is the one who holds her.

season 3 also made it clear that max's relationship with lucas wasn't without flaws.

all of the romantically inept things that mike was doing with el? lucas was doing them first, max was breaking up with him, and lucas was later advising mike on how to fix it. and especially by the end of the season, max seems much more like she's in el's corner than lucas'.

why i think it's possible max and lucas might end up as friends

after she's broken up with him in season 4, lucas spends most of the time just trying to be her friend again. he doesn't even seem bothered by their breakup (although we don't know how long ago it was), he seems to really just want her in his life again, to talk to him.

and, yes, they spend season 4 rebuilding the relationship in a way i think would be beautiful to see work out romantically. but i don't think it's inevitable. (remember that they also rebuilt stency this season.... as much as they might like each other, we've been shown in past seasons that their romantic relationship was flawed.)

i wish i could get into all the parallels, because they're the biggest part of what confuses me on the show's endgame goals but i really can't because it would take up an entire post. the duffers love parallels, obviously, it's one of their main narrative techniques at this point. and i think they usually work really well, because they're not trying to show that each of these characters or couples is exactly the same. they use parallel situations to exemplify the small details that make each character and relationship unique.

for example, milven and stency often parallel each other, but they're not quite the same. i don't think mike ever had genuine romantic feelings for el. he thought he liked her, but ultimately he's gay. nancy, on the other hand, did genuinely have a crush on steve (hc her as a lesbian if you want, i fully support that, but i think the show thinks she likes boys). that is the show's example of a teenage crush that sparks and then fizzles, not turning into deeper love.

whereas lumix, which also sometimes parallels these two ships (for example, their habit of sitting across from each other rather than beside. not always though... they're inconsistent), i believe is an example of a love that is real and genuine... but might not be meant to last forever. because in addition to those other two, they also parallel byler, jopper, and jancy, which i believe are endgame ships.

to be honest... all of this makes me believe even more firmly in gay mike too. because unlike mike’s complete lack of romantic feeling for el, or nancy's naive crush on steve, this is a narrative that sets up genuine, but possibly not everlasting love. a bi character discovering her sexuality by falling for her best girl friend while she’s dating a guy she also really likes. i think lucas is max’s first love, but not her only.

however

all this said, i also think it's very likely that lucas and max will end up together, and el might end the show on her own. lucas and max are NOT milven or stency, and whatever flaws they have don't necessarily spell out a doomed relationship. there's a lot of good there too, i just didn't get into it here.

and el's whole character arc has been about family, friends, and finding herself outside of other peoples' influence. i think this could still work if she were with max, since max has always been the most supportive of el's independence and self-fulfillment, but i can really see the show ending with el on her own, and it being a natural and positive conclusion to her journey

either way though, i think with everything they've been doing, they might actually confirm in canon that max and el have romantic feelings for each other (...or indicate it so obviously that they think it’s undeniable and then later confirm in interviews when most viewers don’t get it because they’re too subtle for their own good)

anyway, here's how elumax can still happen

look, i don't really trust the show to be able to pull this off, mostly because it just. isn't something that's done. not in popular media like this. but honestly, it's hard for me to grasp all of this because it feels like the show is telling me that max belongs with both el and lucas. i think most people assume she will end up with lucas after the way their relationship was rebuilt in season 4, and i think that absolutely makes sense. but i truly think elmax has been built up just as much, just a lot more subtextually. it's just that no one expects it to actually happen. 1, because lumix not ending up together would feel pretty disappointing after all this build up, and we don't want to see lucas, who truly loves max, end up alone. especially when max loves him too. and 2, because of heteronormativity - most people assume elmax are only being set us as friends, regardless of whether they're picking up on the romantic coding. and the "norm" is one romantic partner per person. but max needs el just as much as she needs lucas, and the ending season 4 proved that. lucas holding max in his arms, thinking he's alone with her, but then we see that el is actually there too. right alongside lucas. el saved max's life after she died in lucas's arms.

i could just give up and assume that elmax is platonic and they're giving max both a romantic and a platonic love story, but as i've already talked about, max is queer, and her dynamic with el is romantic. (theres so much evidence of this from el's side too that i just didn't get into)

going into season 5, max is in a coma. we already know that lucas is spending his time at her bedside. and i think it's fair to assume, based on el's priorities after the pizza dough freezer, ignoring mike completely to stay with max and lucas, and to revive max, she's going to be very focused on max too.

this is already way too long but i'm almost done, i want to briefly talk about lucas and el's dynamic from season 1. of all the party members, lucas was the most skeptical and deeply wary of eleven. he didn't trust her, and she ended up inadvertently hurting him when he fought with mike. but over the course of the season, they both learned to trust each other, having moments together than felt just as important as el's friendship with mike.

if season 5 is a return to season 1 dynamics, especially seeing the way season 4 left these two characters (sharing the same priority - max), i think lucas and el will spend a decent amount of time in season 5 together, or at least share a plotline (around max?). now that they're finally being given the chance to actually spend time together, i can see them growing much closer next season, maybe even leading to a mutual understanding and acceptance of both of their feelings towards max (maybe even falling in love?). and if max wakes from her coma to discover that the guilt and shame she's been suffering around her feelings for these two people is actually unnecessary, and that they can all be happy with each other, in whatever way they decide, even if other people might not understand?

*slides the duffers $5*

that would be an absolutely iconic ending.

[kaypeace21]

Sigh.Look... I've been thinking . Don't get too excited or optimistic . I just been thinking about how weird some of the parallels are.

"Lost"

Both mike (directly) and Will (indirectly) say they feel "lost" without eachother. But Mike may feel guilty if he believes El is "lost" without him.

"Truth"

Mike seems worried about El not liking his "truth". The "truth" is he misses Will. And Mike says the "truth"(that el may not like to hear ): is that the only reason they're together is because she needed someone positive in her life- and he was just there at the right time ( and it's not romanctic "fate"/"destiny "- just happenstance). Then Mike wheeler pretty much says the opposite to el (in relation to the woods):"love at first sight in the woods " -which is literally something related to fate/destiny.

Like why? Did Mike believe Will's lie - about the confession/painting/ "heart line' being from El ? So he changed his mind about this prior statement- because now he's more secure in his relationship with El (based on thinking Will's words were El's )? Is Mike lying again to El? I do think he loves her but like - is it not romantic (but familial)and some lines aren't 100 percent genuine? But what he thinks El wants to hear? Especially if he thinks those words will save her . And Will is literally encouraging him to say it .

Does Mike just think Will in the car was emotional and crying cause he thinks Will just really cares for his step sibling (el) -and that Will wants m*leven back together because of it? So mike is like "time to conform" - especially cause Will isn't into me . And is encouraging me to be with El.

And, or, is Mike just genuinely confused about his feelings for the 2 and scared to leave El romantically-for something scary and different? Especially if mike doesn't think Will reciprocates. Plus, Mike "cares' about El. And Will says to Mike she "needs' him and is "lost" without him. So he may feel he can't ever break up with her because of obligation, guilt (plus , loving her in a non romantic way).

And does Mike kind of feel like Will's speech -is about both Will's & El's feelings ?

Like.... is it that? Or just weird cliche (plot hole filled) writing. And good old queerbaiting . Cause besides the fact Mike didn't treat el like he fell in " love at first sight" with her (in s1). Mike would have just been a douche to Will and others- cause he's straight and obsessed with el . The fact mike in his love confession to el has lines that Brenner says to her. Is also ick. Especially cause m*leven is compared to family members in every season of the show. Even El defeating vecna after hearing "I love you" from her mother and mike- is another familial parallel. Talked about all the other m*leven /family/brenner parallels from s4 and past seasons- here. Not to mention - Mike needing to feel "needed" by El, and his hero worship of el isn't healthy. The hero line made her feel insecure previously (and it's just another weird parallel since in s4 Hopper was El's "hero"). Plus, they literally never fix their other relationship issues (spying, lying, neglecting their friends for one another,and poor communication). The season literally ends with mike saying El hasn't talked to him much.

Also, I mean again could just be queerbaiting but the fact el/will/mike is also paralleled to vickie/bf/robin. And Vickie has an s.o and is secretly into Robin - could mean something. There's Def some parallels between mike/Will and vickie/ Robin.

And again the framing at the end: (with byler and other romantic pairings next to eachother ) while El is alone next to the same flowers mike picked for her-literally rotting. The fact they also paralleled byler to lumax - it's all suspicious.

I refuse to have hope ... not again God. But i'll mention it anyways... just In case. Cause they're definitely throwing "crumbs" at us bylers. What their intention is, in doing so - is hard to say though.

[background-character-341]

Okay, so I've decided to finally write this analysis that's been kicking around my brain for way to long.

Also, just a note before we start: I wholeheartedly believe that byler is endgame and Mike loves Will. Therefore this analysis was written with that in mind. If this bothers you for some reason, keep scrolling.

So, without further ado:

Stranger Things 4 and Romantic Monologues

We all love to shit on Mike's monologue and how it was a complete and utter failure as a declaration of love. We also love to heap praise on the van scene as a romantic moment. But these two aren't the only two romantic monologues in season 4, and if we take a closer look at them, there's a pattern regarding which ones work and which ones don't.

Mike

So Mike's monologue is objectively bad as a declaration of love. There are a million analyses on how bad it is. And it's very bad. Mike is lying the entire time, uses words that are a direct callback to things said to El by her abuser, and has to be prompted by her brother. Not to mention the fact that the entire thing was in response to Will's feelings, not hers. Mike barely pays any attention to what El actually wants, instead giving her what he thinks she wants. Yeah, Mike told El that he loved her. But it was never really about hearing him say I love you. I won't dive too deep into that; go read this post if you want to know more. But the general gist of it is that the only reason El wanted to hear him say I love you was because Mike wasn't making her feel loved. And his monologue didn't fix that because it didn't come from his heart. It was fake and riddled with romantic cliches and had to be wrenched out of him by the image of her choking on the table in front of her. It's very bad.

Steve

So Steve's monologue is technically two monologues, but I'm going to treat it as one for the purposes of this analysis. I absolutely despise these monologues. But we're already off to a better start than we were with Mike, because Steve is being genuine. You can tell because he isn't falling back on romantic cliches or what he's supposed to say in a moment like this. His six little nuggets speech feels genuine because that is how he feels. It's all coming from his heart.

The problem with his monologue, and the reason why I hate it, is that it doesn't take into account what Nancy wants. And we know that she doesn't want any part of the future he's envisioning for himself because she goes out of her way to tell us. She says, "That sounds like a nightmare". She is very clearly not on board with this plan and the writers make sure we know that.

So while Steve's monologue is genuine, we have yet another romantic monologue that ignores what the person on the receiving end actually wants.

Jonathan & Nancy

This one's a bit of an outlier. Technically, it's two monologues: one from Jonathan and one from Nancy. But they're set side by side like a dialogue, so it makes more sense to look at them as one.

Unlike the previous two declarations of love, these two actually take into account the person on the receiving end. They're about their qualities and strengths and what they see in them. We already know they love each other before they ever say it because you don't talk like that about someone you're not in love with.

But this is also the first time we've seen an endgame couple say the word love in relation to each other. And after they both say they love each other, Nancy insists that everything is fine in their relationship, and you can hear the bitterness in her voice. She's lying. And we find out later that everything isn't fine in their relationship, and they are in fact having communication issues. Their monologues did nothing to change that. They did nothing to fix their problems.

The monologues are genuine. We can feel that. We never doubt that they actually love each other. And we can see that in their reunion in episode 9. But they don't address the actual problems they're having. Something's still missing.

Lucas

As they're walking to skull rock, Lucas and Max have one of the most important conversations for rebuilding their relationship in season 4.

Lucas in this scene is reassuring Max with this monologue. Telling her that she doesn't need to hide anymore because he understands that she's going through something hard and he's here for her. It's a monolgue that's tailored to Max's insecurities. When Max tries take on some of the blame for their relationship falling apart, Lucas immediately shoots her down because he knows that she has so much guilt over what happened to her brother, and what she needs right now is someone to tell her that it's not her fault. Lucas tells Max that he sees her because he knows that she has been feeling invisible.

I see you aren't inherently romantic words, but they do more for Lucas and Max's relationship than any I love you ever has for any other relationship in this show, because they are the words that Max needs to hear.

And that's the crux of it really. This monologue works because it's what Max needs to hear. It's about acknowledging her feelings and reassuring her insecurities. It's about bridging the gap between the two of them.

Joyce

Joyce and Hopper have two romantic moments after they reunite: one right after, and then one at the church. The first one is basically Joyce telling Hopper that they missed him and the second one is her telling him that he was worth that whole trip. Unlike Lucas's monologue, they're both much more romantic moments, but they still follow the same basic formula. Joyce is telling Hopper what he needs to hear.

Hopper's main insecurity is that he only brings sadness and death to the people around him. But here Joyce is telling him that that's not true. They missed him. They want him around. She even brings in El as proof of this. And she's telling him that he's worth it. He's worth all that money, he's worth getting captured, he's worth crashing a plane in Russia. He's worth it. And they missed him.

Will

So, finally, the van scene. This scene has been analyzed a million times. I have gone from thinking that Mike is an idiot with rocks in his brain to being convinced that he knew exactly what Will was talking about here. This scene has so many layers, so much to be looked at and analyzed, and there's no way I can do it justice. This is where I direct you to this analysis. Just go read it, it's amazing.

But from the perspective that we're looking at, from the perspective of romantic monologues and why they work in Stranger Things, this one follows the same formula that the last two have. Will in this scene is doing the same thing for Mike that Lucas did for Max and Joyce did for Hopper: he's reassuring Mike. Mike feels insecure in his relationship with El. He feels like he's not important. Like he's nobody, and nobody needs him. And Will is telling him, "No. You are somebody. You are important. You make (El) feel like she's not a mistake. (El) needs you Mike."

The reason Mike is so moved by this monologue is that this is everything he has ever wanted to be told. And for the first time he feels loved. And Will never once said those three words.

I see you, I missed you, I need you. On the surface those words aren't nearly as romantic as I love you. But that's the point. I love you is too general. I love you could be about anybody. But having the ability to look at someone, see the parts of them that they hate, and say that they don't need to feel that way because you're there? That's specific. That's love.

Grand declarations of love don't work in Stranger Things because they don't actually address the relationship. They don't get to the heart of it and tell you what it is about these two people that makes them compatible. And they don't address any of the underlying problems in a struggling relationship. All the I love yous in the world can't change the fact that Jonathan is lying to Nancy about Emerson. They can't bridge the huge chasm between Steve and Nancy. And they certainly can't make Mike and El's relationship less toxic.

[deanismysavior]

Mileven has a beautiful story and ruining them in season 5 would be a shame. Byler is so toxic,mike and will fight all the time and Mike makes Will suffer all the time. That’s why i think it’s better for will to find another crush.

Listen, I'm not here to start ship wars, really. I'm just calling it like I see it, given what we have visually been shown throughout the season and the context clues we can pick up on.

If you want to continue to ship Mileven, great, cool, fine, but on my own blog, I'm going to share my own opinion, so here it is:

It seems, at least to me, pretty undeniable at this point that the writing is on the wall for Mileven. All we've gotten from them this season is lies, miscommunication, and a lack of understanding what the other needs. There was no real reconciling after the love confession, no real resolution to all of that strain. In fact, it was confirmed to us that El still wasn't really talking to Mike. To try to put them back together at this point with the fact that Mike has definitely not changed how he views El or gained any insight into how to actually love her the way she needs and deserves, it would feel forced, and I honestly want better for them both than to continue in a relationship where they're not feeling seen by one another.

Mileven, as a relationship, used to be a cute dynamic. It was sweet and innocent, but as they've grown up, they haven't grown together pretty much at all. Their relationship is not built on honest communication, but instead just physical affection, which isn't healthy or balanced. I'm sorry to say it, but I really don't think the writers would be ruining anything that's not already broken here.

Mike and Will might fight a few times over the course of the show, but to me, none of that displays toxic behavior. They are actively expressing their feelings around one another in moments where they come to a head. Mike's really unhealthy behavior shows up whether he's fighting or not: he deflects blame, but what's different about his relationship with Will is that he almost always takes full accountability afterwards and apologizes right away. We don't really see him display this behavior with anyone else. He has consistently always had to be goaded into apologizing to others, and it either shows up half-assed (like his apology to Lucas in s1) or performative (like his attempted apology to El post-breakup). He only really ever gives a genuine and authentic apology without prompting to Will.

Mike and Will's relationship is built on mutual trust; Mike and El's is not, as we see El spying on Mike (s3) or lying to Mike (s4), and Mike gaslighting her on multiple occasions. If you want to call anything toxic, I'd say that's pretty damn close right there.

The only reason Will is suffering is because he thinks his feelings are unrequited, but Mike doesn't "make him suffer," Mike makes him feel seen.

They've already addressed that they are not bringing new characters into the show next season, and it would honestly feel cheap at this point to have built up Will being in love with Mike and building more trust with him all of season 4 to then just have Will pursue a different romantic partner. If they wanted Will with someone else, they should have introduced someone else for him, but they didn't. They explicitly made him in love with Mike.

At the end of the day, we all just want our characters to be happy, but I don't think that that happiness is going to come from Mileven staying together. El needs to feel empowered and understood. Mike needs to feel like he's not inferior to his partner. Will deserves to be loved the way that he gives love to others. Byler endgame is just the way that I see all of them getting satisfying and happy endings for themselves.

But seriously, do whatever you want. Think whatever you want. Ship whatever you want. But don't come into my ask box and expect to prove me wrong about something I've thought very carefully about.

[chirpsythismorning]

What 'early breakups' are you even talking about? Steve and Nancy's? Lucas and Max's? Nancy and Steve broke up in an 'ambigious' way and it happened what? After the Party mess and when Nancy was drunk... so that did not exactly even happen that early into the season. Lucas and Max were broken up off-screen so they could get together.

They want Milvn to break up permanently in an unambiguous way, without any possibility of them romantically getting together while at the same time asserting their importance to each other on a personal sense with the show's narrative.

How's an early and quick breakup where El just goes 'i am done bye' does that, with the knowledge we have that El drew strength from Mike based on love, not hatred. The words 'Mike's hands were pulling her from her drowning' and other variations are not about El drawing strength from anger...

Sorry if you felt like I was calling you delusional. Pointing out that the almost entire fandom is willing to ignore canon narrative is not calling someone delusional it is just a fact. It's not even an interpretation.

We cannot expect to really expect anything going into S5 when the fandom almost consistently ignores canon and prefers to go by fanon instead. All the analyses then become heaaaaavy handed but very misguided expectations from an analyzing standpoint.

Yes all of those couples followed a somewhat similar pattern of breaking up early on. But specifically the Steve/Nancy/Jonathan love triangle is what I’m referring to.

In s1 they separated early on and the rest of the season Jonathan and Nancy were a focus, which allowed us to root for them the whole season, besides the beginning and end. In s2, they had their fight at the beginning revolve around Nancy not being able to say I love you, which allowed us to root for them for the rest of the season and followed by them getting together.

Mike literally refers to him and El’s fight in s4 as 'a fight that you can’t come back from', a fight that paralleled his sister’s fight with her first boyfriend, who she also ended up being broken up with after that incident, not years later, because we all know that that wasn't a fight you could just push under the rug and save for another time, it had to be addressed.

The thing is, the time jump for s5 is likely to occur early in the season, because the cast's age difference is something they don’t want to be too distracting. The earlier the time jump, the more they film stuff post time jump, accommodating to that age gap between s4-5.

So having Mike and El’s break up be midseason, means that’s Mike and El would presumably be ignoring all of the deep and very hard to ignore problems in their relationship, for those initial epiosdes, and then for another 1-2 years depending on how long the time jump is, which I just don't see happening. I don't see them putting on a show of a romantic relationship for much longer, and that's based on how S4 ends. For them to go from not talking and staying within at least like 3 feet of each other in those last moments, tells me that they're not going to be gravitating towards each other the way romantic love interests do, the way Mike and Will are doing at the end of the season in direct contrast.

I think holding off on it until mid-s5, is arguably even more ambiguous than what I would imagine is going to happen if it’s addressed sooner rather than later. Because that would mean them just awkwardly dancing around it and acting like it's not going to happen, even though we know it's inevitable.

Because Mike and El’s problems were highlighted in s3-4 in a big way. We saw how especially in s4 neither of them were being honest in their relationship. The romantic love there was lacking because neither of them were in it for genuine reasons, in terms of genuinely being in love and wanting to be together in a romantic way.

El craved normalcy bc she has always had so many things in her life making her feel different. Mike and his relationship with El is all he knows. And s4 made a point to build up just how impossible it is for them to keep this going and act like everything is okay when it’s not. Like did you see early s4, the fake sort of show they put on to act like everything was fine? Why would s5 be repeat of that? Why wouldn't they evolve that to show that their conflict is no longer something they can ignore, and instead convey that it was indeed a fight they can't come back from.

And I personally do not think that the break up is just going to be an 'I’m done, so bye!' scenario 🤣. Even if it was midseason, it wouldn’t be like that either.

It's a lot more likely that how El felt about their fight in early s4, and how she felt about his monologue, is going to at least be addressed and acknowledged in early s5, because the audience deserves that closure of knowing how El truly feels, with her being able to say it. Meaning that if they stayed together in early s5, we’d also need El in early s5 saying she loves Mike too and to actually resolve that conflict with her actually being able to even respond to it.

And with them breaking up and byler being endgame inevitable, I just highly doubt they’re going to play this game all over again, only to rip it away haphazardly.

She started the show barely being able to say a couple of words. And now despite the fact that she can talk and speak for herself, she hasn't been granted that affordance in the narrative. Instead her brother confessed her love for her, using all things that applied to him. If they wanted to give us El's genuine feelings about Mike, they wouldn't be identical to her brothers and given from him. That's just soooo sad and not fair for anyone in this situation and that's why it needs to be addressed.

We know she was upset with Mike calling her a superhero in their fight, we know that she looked at him with this frustration that he was still not getting it. That was like the climax of their fight in her room, with her looking at him with fed up determination, because saying something like that was the last thing she wanted to hear. And if anything, her experience at Nina, where Brenner told her she needed to fly and revealed that he used her to find Henry from the very beginning, how would Mike saying she could fly and she's his superhero, be something that provides her comfort, when if anything it's just a similar thing being expected of her, without her having any say in it?

The whole You're regressing Eleven is literally hinting at this idea that El is holding onto something in her life that is keeping her in the past, in a situation that makes her development sort of go backwards, and that is in large part highlighting her holding onto this idea that her and Mike are peak romance, despite the fact the that he isn't loving her the way she deserves. By staying with Mike despite knowing both of them are unhappy and forcing it at this point, is a huge regression to all of this build up leading to an inevitable separation, then being followed by them finally accepting themselves in each others lives without the obligation to be together because they met in the woods a few years ago and have felt this pressure to stay together ever since.

In their fight, she didn't want Mike to point to her powers as a way to deflect her genuine feelings about their relationship and her insecurities with him not being able to love her the way she wants, as a person and not as someone who can keep saving the day for him. And so how would him again saying she is a superhero, HIS superhero, suddenly be what she wants to hear in the end after everything she went through?

The problem with that moment in the script is that it's the only thing that is supporting the assumption she was happy with Mike's monologue. Everything else in the story goes against that. All of s4 makes it very clear that that was not what El wanted from Mike.

This is a big part of the reason byler makes sense, because they follow an I didn't say it/You didn't have to approach to love (show don't tell). Mike never should have had to say I love you for El to believe it. If it was something genuine between them, completely natural like breathing, El wouldn't have asked of it from him. But he made a point to struggle with merely writing it, avoiding it at all costs, making El feel even more insecure that there was something wrong with her causing Mike not to love her anymore. And the monologue didn't fix that.

You don't have to apologize but you also don't have to get upset and say everyone in the fandom is wrong, but you're right. If you truly believe that, continue to and leave other people alone. If people are on their posts saying how they feel and it upsets you, block them.

My problem is that everything leading up to byler, that makes it make sense, is at it's core what lead to Mike and El having conflict in the first place. And not addressing that and leading on Mike and El fans, for shock value isn't exactly good for the narrative. And it's never been good for the narrative which is why they like to address it early on so that we can move on to focusing on the pairing that they want us to root for.

Arguably, a break up before the time jump allows for byler to get together well after Mike and El separated instead of mere days/weeks. I would think with how much people are going to have a hard time with considering byler as it is, the time jump happening after Mike and El's break up would allow them to accept that Mike and El are for sure done and have been done for a while, and Will isn't some rebound because Mike is feeling insecure and he'll just be with him the second him and El end things.

How I imagine a mid-season 5 break up is that it would be even more ambiguous than an early one, because it would require El and Mike to ignore their problems for five episodes when there really is no reason to do that with how obvious it was that their fight was a fight that you couldn't come back from. And addressing that is what will allow us to watch El actually experience closure on screen and then be able to focus on Max and working with everyone to beat Vecna. If the whole audience is watching at the edge of their seat being led on the whole season that Mike and El have a chance of getting back together, they're not going to be able to focus on El's arc as an individual character, bc they're going to be waiting for Mike and El to make up and be together.

But then when it doesn't happen, and they've been led astray unnecessarily even more than the previous 2 times, we'll only have a mere 4 episodes to build up them being a platonic pairing with it being blatantly obvious that the audience needs to accept it AND that we need to accept Mike and Will being romantic.

Whereas with an early s5 break up, by episode 3-4 we will know that they are not together and can focus on the new conflicts that have arose from the final season, because dragging on stuff that has already been heavily built up in s4 as being a problem, just to give us the most obvious anti-climactic outcome halfway through in the middle of all the new storylines they are focused on, would fall flat.

Mid-season is likely going to be made up of Mike and Will having a substantial amount of time alone. That's something that those early break-ups allows, so that we can have that development for them that is necessary in order for them to be endgame. Arguably as Mike and Will are going through that, El isn't going to be around to break up with him.

If anything I could see an early s5 breakup, with the audience being aware of it, but not Will. This would mean that Mike and Will's interactions could still be interpreted as romantic comfortably, but we would see for the first time Mike pining and Will still assuming that Mike could never feel the same, until maybe mid-season he finds out that they are indeed not together.

I can't subscribe to the monologue when all of the conflict leading up to it makes it abundantly clear that isn't what El wanted to hear. And we would see in mid-season 5 that El is just going to end up saying all of the stuff we already knew. She's not stupid. She knows that something is off with Mike, that was the whole point from the beginning. That inner struggle he is having is even more heightened and made obvious by the fact that Will was what encouraged Mike to say I love you in the first place. She heard all of that. And then she proceeded to ignore them at the cabin.

How s4 ended is not at all giving the impression El is going to start s5 by gravitating towards Mike and looking to him for comfort, it was actually the direct opposite.

If I were to subscribe to the monologue being a convincing love confession to El, at that point I'd rather Mike and El just stay together instead of holding off even more on facing the truth about the conflict of their relationship that didn't just get fixed by the words I love you. I'd rather byler didn't end up together if Mike is just stringing El along to inevitably choose Will over her anyways at the last minute.

I do think that I love you is what El thought she wanted to hear from Mike, but not like that. And it would be a disservice to her character to have the focus be on her hoping he might choose her for any longer, only for him not to.

If a bunch of people are interpreting the show this way, then there's a good chance that they could be right. We were right about byler being endgame and all of our reasoning is supported by the conflict that has been building up for seasons, and that love confession that paralleled to El beating Henry in 79', doesn't look like one rooted in love, whereas that first face off was. Mike's monologue was bathed in red, El's memory of her birth bathed her in light.

Will on the other hand is bathed in light from Mike's perspective, most prominently at the end of s4. That wasn't in the script, does that mean it's not important? Almost all of bylers moments aren't in the script, does that mean everything about them means nothing?

Feel free to subscribe to whatever you want to. If you end up being right you can say I told you so and live with that satisfaction! Personally, if I'm right, I won't feel the need to come and say I told you so, bc it's not about some sort of vindication for me. I don't even plan on doing that to redditors bc they're going to be dealing with that enough as it is. I'd rather them just insist we're crazy right now and let it all unfold and let the show speak for itself. If I have to subscribe with everything they think bc of the scripts, then I'd be pretty bored rn because all of the evidence for byler would essentially mean nothing and they're just being put together for no reason. All of that lead up meant something, otherwise their endgame wouldn't be satisfying, least of all if El is once again being framed as waiting for Mike to choose, only to not choose her this time. She deserves so much better than that. They all deserve better than that.

Will on one hand assuming for a little longer that Mike doesn't feel the same merely drags out the mutual pining leading to that endgame. El assuming for a little longer that Mike does feel the same is just making her plot regressive for no reason when she could be finally getting that independance arc, truly separated from being linked to Mike in a way that prevents her from truly progressing and knowing her worth and living up to that authentically.

We'll have to wait and see. But I don't see the use in coming in other peoples inboxes and directing your dissatisfaction with their interpretation of things as contradicting yours and so they need to just drop it and subscribe to what you think or else...

Everyone on here can interpret things how they want since there is still a season left and everything is still up in the air. If you want to blow off steam and say your piece on your profile, then do that and if other people resonate with it then that's great! You don't have to force other people to involve themselves with your narrative. If people are doing that to you, you have every right to block them because you also shouldn't have to have people in your inbox saying that your interpretation of things is wrong.

I'll continue to analyze and break things down as I choose. That's not stopping anytime soon. And IDK why you would want others to. It would be pretty dead on here if we all just stopped and believed everything we've been told superficially despite everything we've been shown contradicting that. If everything we're being told is all there is to it, you could argue byler isn't even happening. But most of us can agree that isn't the case.

I hope you can continue to analyze how you view things and embrace your interpretation instead of tearing others' down. We still have two years left, let's not make this more unnecessarily unbearable than it needs to be.

[garina]

Two more episodes down... For @kedreeva, who is apparently waiting for me to lose my mind in another 4 episodes time...

Dr Brenner can die in all the fires. Forever. Manipulative abusive amoral arsehole. And anyone who helped him do that to El (and others?) can join him.

This cast are absolutely incredible. The way Mike's face crumples when he gets home after they see the 'body' being found is heartbreaking and I was crying with them all.

I really like Mrs Wheeler. She's trying to be a supportive mother and protect her kids, and while she's obviously hurt when Joyce suddenly tells her to leave for apparently no reason, she just leaves quietly without snapping back.

Jonathan really messed up with those photos. Steve and the others had a right to be angry (even if arseholes in other respects). Not sure whether Steve would have gone as far as smashing the camera if it wasn't for That Photo of Nancy, unsurprisingly it seemed to be the one that really pissed him off.

Nancy seems to have forgiven him quite easily, but then that's her right. Also a)he gave her a genuine apology, and b) I don't think she cares about anything right now except finding Barb,and Jonathan's not dismissing her

Poor Barb, that opening scene was heartbreaking and terrifying. The fact that she can't see properly while trying to escape, and the way it's intercut with Nancy and Steve having sex is really really effective.

The problem with anxiety, is that when something genuinely dangerous, or something that anyone would find terrifying, comes along, a lot of your coping mechanisms go out of the window because they're often based on rationalising your anxieties, and trying to persuade your brain that everything will be alright. This does not work when things are clearly not ok. Or when monsters climb out of the walls. Poor Joyce.

The lights spelling out 'RUN' was an amazing spinechilling moment.

El's struggle to communicate continues to get me. Just not having the words to explain (and it's a pretty complicated concept anyway). Also her delight when she first sees herself as an ordinary girl.

Mr Clarke continues to be awesome. More teachers should be like him.

Public humiliation should be mandatory for all bullies, especially ones as vile as Troy.

The radio/Will in the wall scene. Best scene so far, no competition. The dawning horror and fear on the boys' faces as they realise: yes he's really alive... but things are really really BAD. Joyce talking to him though the wall and begging him to run and stay safe, promising she'll find him...

Do the portals really have to be so... membrany? And the way those pieces reknit across the portal in the lab, it looked almost like hands reaching across and grasping each other. Nope. Do. Not. Want. A real, primal revulsion moment.

I am impressed with Hopper's investigative skills, not so much with his romantic ones. Did you consider apologising properly for your behaviour and asking the understandably angry librarian for help properly? The bit with the fake body was really good, you could see him doubting himself and really having to psyche himself up to do it. I am not sure his one man mission into the lab is going to go well.

Running out of steam and coherentish sentences. But not of feels. Roll on episodes 5 and 6!

[castlebyersafterdark]

am i just biased or does byler just feel more real, more present, more powerful than these others? esp rovickie. it feels like a tv show. byler, somehow, feels genuine. i truly escape into their relationship as if its real. rovickie is melodrama and television. idk, maybe it's cos weve grown up with the boys? they feel like real stranger things somehow. from this post comparison...

https://www.tumblr.com/heheidks/762513327491547136/rovickie?source=share

I am also deep in the bias so can't help you there, just encourage correct takes 😉 But - there is something to be said for where the heart of the show truly lies. It's WILL. That's why it's hitting so hard for those invested in it. His story is the thread for all of Stranger Things. He is the reason we have the show. He's the first mystery, the first character we're to care about. And now? We're following his journey to self-acceptance and finding reciprocal love. It's been planted from the beginning. The slow burn is a steady smolder. We get to see the boys as young kids, we KNOW they are best friends. We see Mike fight and fight to get him back, mourn him so emotionally, and then fight again to raise this special boy in his life from the dead. We see Dustin and Lucas and El fight to get him back to, but they wouldn't have gone as hard if not for Mike. It's Mike and Will, from the beginning.

And we follow the journey. The ups and downs. And we still have a full season to go. Their story is currently the deepest one (romantically) without a resolution yet. Joyce and Hopper have been on a path just as long - but they were adults, they didn't have that lifetime we as an audience get to see. The formative years. And Jopper got together already. Everything after builds upon, but not up-to. Yes, we have Nancy and Jonathan as well who have a long storyline, but they got together season 2 and get to work through the established era, even with ups and downs. Robin and Vickie - I do really really enjoy them. But we've had Robin for much less time than we've had Will and Mike, and Vickie even less so. Doesn't mean they're not interesting or important - but the show isn't built upon them. It's built upon Will (and Mike).

They are not the Stranger Things - but the Stranger Things are in comparison to them, I will stand by it until the end regarding my very cheesy explanation!! There are stranger things in the world of Hawkins than two boys who are best friends in the 1980s falling in love and getting their happy ending together!!! AHHHHHH 🥰🥰

[bylercore69]

The Milkvan Breakup Problem

There's still some shit that just doesn't sit right with me:

If Byler is happening next season, then micellar water needs to break up right? Ok, so it would have been way more natural to do that in st4: it would confirm that El didn't believe Mike's bullshit speech, that she's on the road to independence, that she is starting an arc of learning to see her usefulness for being who she is and loving her friends, not just for her powers.

But no, now they have to break up next season, and how tf are they gonna do that? If there's a 2 year time jump? Do you really mean to tell me that the relationship lasted two more years like that? Even though El knows? I don't see her putting up with that shit. So they can't break up at the beginning. What about in the middle? That's so exhausting tho because that means that they resolved or at least shoved off this problem for two years and now it either resurfaces, another issue comes up, or both and then that is what finally gets them to break up. Then they're broken up and there really isn't enough time for Byler to happen without it seeming like Mike is homie hopping. Or they could start out the season and just say "Oh we kind of drifted apart" or "we broke up two years ago" and not actually show it. I don't think I even need to explain why that would suck ass.

Now the most likely solution is a flashback. They'll either start out s5 exactly where s4 left off and then do the time jump or start out s5 two years later and flash back to the break up. I don't mind this, but I don't like it either. I think it doesn't pay enough respect to Mike & El's relationship. Sure, maybe their romantic relationship was shit, but they are really great friends who love each other so much, so I think they deserve a patient, emotional, real-time break-up and time for both of them to process it.

The best way I can think of for them to do this was for Mike & El to break up at the end of season 4. That was simply the only time for it. But they put it off because they wanted to continue their little queerbait game: keep the Michelle Pfeiffers engaged and the bylers hopeful. God forbid Byler nation gets an obvious win. They made this decision based on marketing, not what's good for the story. So just remember, Byler nation: even if Byler is endgame, the Duffers are not innocent. They still queerbaited us because they are reaping the financial benefits of leaving the door open when it should have been closed from a narrative standpoint.

And now, you're not going to like what I think they should do: I think Mike has to cheat on El. All the other options are so shit, but at least this one is dramatic and I think El can forgive him. I still think it's unbelievable that the two of them would remain in this loveless, limbo of a relationship, but if for some reason the Duffers don't break them up immediately somehow, Mike has to feel trapped in the relationship but be unable to resist Will anyway. And it's not fair to Will or El, but when Mike is forced to admit his feelings and make amends, truly and genuinely this time, he will finally complete his arc and his un-asshole-ification.

Edit: My last paragraph may have been a bit dramatic: I really really dont want that to happen. But even if I did, I shouldn’t have used the word “cheat” when I really mean “overlap in his feelings” like he realizes his feelings for Will and maybe even has some sort of conversation with Will before the break up. I just think it’s kind of sad to tac it onto the beginning of s5. It should be woven into the rest of s5 somehow, but ig they had too many production problems so this is just how it has to be