#they're there for a reason and it's not mike having genuine romantic feelings

[mikesbasementbeets]

god i wish i were more articulate so i could actually explain my thoughts on all the milven/byler visual parallels...... people using the situational and framing similarities to "prove" that mike feels the same way about both el and will when truly the further you get into both relationships the clearer the discrepancies become between the emotional weights and contexts of each scene.... and the way they're both framed the same way to make those discrepancies stand out even more

[love-byers]

the first time i saw this, when i was NOT a byler shipper, i thought el was running TO mike. i thought we were getting a sweet moment where el runs to mike and he puts an arm around her or hugs her.

then i realized she was running away from him. 

and i was like, why?? they're supposed to be the couple why does she not want his comfort??

and even after will calls her out on doing mike wrong by lying to him, even after she sees that mike is attempting to talk to her and comfort her, that he's not angry at her, she still tells angela to lie to mike. more lies. that's how much she cares about keeping up the persona. had angela lied to mike, el would've continued lying to him the entire week. something she knows in her heart is wrong and not fair to mike.

this is a theme in s4. putting who you want to be seen as before being honest with your bf/gf. going above and beyond to preserve your lie, to be seen as who you want to be.

chrissy does that with jason. who she portrays herself as is completely different than who she really is and what she's really going through. jason has absolutely no idea chrissy is struggling and refused to believe chrissy would buy drugs, because chrissy didn't want to tell him. who knows how jason would've reacted if chrissy was honest, we don't know because chrissy didn't trust him enough to tell him. that's not love at all, that's sad.

this is a point in s2 as well. murray calls nancy out for being afraid to be her true self, and she stays with steve because she doesn't have to be her true self around him. she is her true self when she's with jonathan, and that's why they worked together. that's love.

the exact same thing happens with chrissy. the first time we see her genuinely smile is when she's with eddie. she's sweet and charismatic, and had she lived she totally would've gone to eddie's show, something you never would've expected from her, something her boyfriend, the person she pretends to love, would NEVER do.

robin and steve reinforce this too

you fall in love with the person who makes you feel accepted, the person who makes you feel like you can be who you are. the person you trust with your true self.

mike and el don't trust each other enough, they don't understand each other well enough.

they would have to change their behavior towards each other by leaps and bounds, and we're already at the last season. there is no time for that. stranger things isn't a multi season show about the complexity of romantic relationships and the healthy way to resolve problems. there is no time for that in just about any movie or show, especially a sci-fi show. you know what's way easier and way more likable? pairing your character with someone they naturally click with, who bring out the best in each other and for some reason can't help but be their authentic selves when they're with each other.

did it with jancy, like i said earlier

did it with lumax. when lucas and max talked on the bus max found herself spewing about things she'd never even said out loud before, and she had to stop herself. something about lucas just made her feel comfortable, like she could be herself and tell the truth. she trusted him.

"You're nothing like your brother, okay? You're cool and different, you're super smart, and you're like, totally tubular."

jopper too! joyce constantly had to hide things from bob, she was insecure about their family not being normal.

"This is not a normal family."

"It could be."

though bob had good intentions, the message of the show is not trying to be normal when you aren't. whatever it is about you that makes you weird or different, whatever you've been through that changed you, stay true to it. dont bottle it up and try to be someone else. all of vecnas victims in s4 were doing this, and it didn't end well for them.

they even did it with dustin and suzie. dustin constantly tries to impress max with his teeth, then in season 3 he says suzie thinks kissing is better without teeth. he doesn't have to be insecure about that or try to impress her. she likes him for him.

mike isn't comfortable being his true self around el either. he's insecure about his interests, he feels like he has to act older and cooler to impress her.

you shouldn't be with the person you feel you have to impress. you should be with the person who relieves that pressure, who makes you feel like being the authentic you is enough.

jonathan and nancy, lucas and max, joyce and hopper, dustin and suzie,

cough WILL AND MIKE cough...

[chirpsythismorning]

Mike’s monologue makes so much more sense when you remember, he’s a frickin’ Paladin...

Paladins take their oath very seriously, and I do think that the whole theme of friends don't lie, is in part loosely inspired by this oath that Paladin's make, and how one of their most defining qualities is swearing by tenants of honesty.

All of us often overlook the D&D aspect in the show and how central of a role it plays, arguably even more so than parallels with the hundreds of movies they refer to for inspiration, and that's why this moment of Mike's monologue with El in s4, along with Mike's monologue with Will in season 2, is so important to consider if we want to be ready for what's about to go down in s5.

It's as if Mike is acting out an oath of devotion to these two characters. Though his oath to Will comes off a lot more genuine, it's unfortunately undermined slightly by the oath he presents to El, because they're both attempting to be an oath of devotion. By saying he loved El the moment he saw her and how his life started at that very moment, he's contradicting what he said to Will just hours before about how meeting El was simple dumb luck, as well as directly paralleling (and in turn undermining) what he told Will back in s2, which is that meeting Will/asking to be his friend was the best thing he's ever done.

Mike is inadvertently breaking an oath he once made, while also creating a new oath that stands on false grounds.

We've talked about the whole Watch out dominos, your dominos are gonna fall, and how it's related to Mike because he's in the shot equally to Argyle as he says it. But seriously you guys, it's related to Mike.

It's about the internal struggle he's been having for a few years now, growing and growing and him sort of refusing to examine it closely, because he knows that he's in a situation where he's supposed to be devoting himself to El. It's the expected path, and not only that but he also feels indebted to El after all she has done for him (also what the ga thinks which is why they argue even if Mike doesn't love El, they shouldn't break up bc it would hurt her.... Mike shares the ga's logic...), and so as it becomes more and more clear to him that she loves him and wants him to love her, he's trying his best to accept it, while also not being able to because he knows deep down he's breaking an oath that he already made if he follows through with this.

While I think there are a bunch of different factors at play, very likely Mike is aware of what his heart truly wants, which is why he's having such a hard time following through with devoting himself to El. Because deep down, he knows he's already devoted to someone else.

Luckily (tragically), Mike is breaking his oath because he thinks it's the right thing to do. Which just makes him even more of a Paladin if you think about it. The fact that him not wanting to break an oath is why he's been struggling for so long.

I don't think he knows that he's hurting Will while he's doing it, because the oath has more to do with him and being honest with himself, and I don't think he knows he's hurting El by doing this either, because he's under the assumption she wants him to say all of these things. He had doubts originally because there were reasons to have doubts as a result of Mike stalling for so long, but I just don't think Mike would go through with the monologue, if he thought that it wasn't what El wanted.

What makes Mike's arc so painfully tragic, is that he is led to believe at this point that El wants him romantically more than she needs him and that's the whole problem. He is unable to love her in the way she wants him to at this point, and he knows this. And he's still holding back.

That's another thing that's so sad about Mike going through with it in the end anyways, because I think a lot of his guilt stems from knowing that El wants him to love her, and yet he's unable to meet her halfway. And then going through with it in the end, when he doesn't truly mean it, that's... like he's breaking every code in his own book by doing this.

And it is likely going to really affect him.

The dominos are gonna fall. Not just for him, but for everyone.

The good news is that there is a standard way for this to play out, based on D&D rules and interestingly enough, it fits quite well with what s5 is likely to entail...

[castlebyersafterdark]

i think its so funny to see people discussing byler's positions during sex with missionary as the plain choice, as if their love itself isnt sexy? i can see how there's sex and then there's sexxxxx you know, but... i dont know... missionary being plain or not that hot or not feeling good unless you're making it about emotion is so odd to me. like, they can go deep with missionary. they can look into each other's eyes and be emotional with a slow cowgirl or ride. its always missionary=sweet=boring=cute OR super hot=sexy=doggy=reverse cowgirl.

maybe one is making love and one is having sex. but is it cheesy to say that the 'sappy' emotions are sexy too? super sexy cos its very vulnerable, whereas reverse cowgirl... i mean, you can hide. you can hide your face and yourself, and perform.

i love the idea of a missionary session where they're both super rough and passionate, it's not sappy or sweet at all, it's intense as theyre looking into each others faces and will is basically getting consumed and absorbed with mike totally on top of him and folding him in half. and i love the idea of a cowgirl session that was meant to start out rough but they both just press together and stare into each others eyes, super slow, instead.

Ha! 🙏 No, you're totally right and I definitely don't view the little jokes as saying its only the boring/sweet option. It's less the position itself and more... the way I think a lot of us view Mike and Will? Above all else they really truly crave that intimacy of being able to fully see each other, the eye contact is sweet and romantic but it's also super fucking hot? Watching their emotions play out, mouths parted and gasping, eyes - as much as they want to keep them open to watch each other - involuntarily shut in pleasure, maybe some tears falling. It's just funny in that for all the ideas the often get listed, it's gotta genuinely be the number #1. And for many reasons!!

Also so right - definitely missionary doesn't need to be slow and sweet. It's the perfect position for Mike to grab Will's wrists and push them above his head, arms stretched, hands pinned to the mattress, chest to chest. Maybe secured to the headboard sometimes, too. Legs grabbed, pushed wide, thrown over shoulders, experimenting with angles and flexibility. I think if they're switching it up a bit and he's topping, Will would love being in control of where Mike's legs go, they're so long and bendy, he's super flexible. Incredibly hot to see what he can handle, fold him basically in half. All the while they can watch each other's expressions, the twist of pleasure and effort as they push each other just a little further.

So totally agree. Everything is versatile! The thing with this duo is I think they have this incredible dynamic in the bedroom where on a turn they can flip from super sappy and sweet and romantic into intensity and rough passion and genuinely intermix it all. They just click. ❤️

[garina]

Two more episodes down... For @kedreeva, who is apparently waiting for me to lose my mind in another 4 episodes time...

Dr Brenner can die in all the fires. Forever. Manipulative abusive amoral arsehole. And anyone who helped him do that to El (and others?) can join him.

This cast are absolutely incredible. The way Mike's face crumples when he gets home after they see the 'body' being found is heartbreaking and I was crying with them all.

I really like Mrs Wheeler. She's trying to be a supportive mother and protect her kids, and while she's obviously hurt when Joyce suddenly tells her to leave for apparently no reason, she just leaves quietly without snapping back.

Jonathan really messed up with those photos. Steve and the others had a right to be angry (even if arseholes in other respects). Not sure whether Steve would have gone as far as smashing the camera if it wasn't for That Photo of Nancy, unsurprisingly it seemed to be the one that really pissed him off.

Nancy seems to have forgiven him quite easily, but then that's her right. Also a)he gave her a genuine apology, and b) I don't think she cares about anything right now except finding Barb,and Jonathan's not dismissing her

Poor Barb, that opening scene was heartbreaking and terrifying. The fact that she can't see properly while trying to escape, and the way it's intercut with Nancy and Steve having sex is really really effective.

The problem with anxiety, is that when something genuinely dangerous, or something that anyone would find terrifying, comes along, a lot of your coping mechanisms go out of the window because they're often based on rationalising your anxieties, and trying to persuade your brain that everything will be alright. This does not work when things are clearly not ok. Or when monsters climb out of the walls. Poor Joyce.

The lights spelling out 'RUN' was an amazing spinechilling moment.

El's struggle to communicate continues to get me. Just not having the words to explain (and it's a pretty complicated concept anyway). Also her delight when she first sees herself as an ordinary girl.

Mr Clarke continues to be awesome. More teachers should be like him.

Public humiliation should be mandatory for all bullies, especially ones as vile as Troy.

The radio/Will in the wall scene. Best scene so far, no competition. The dawning horror and fear on the boys' faces as they realise: yes he's really alive... but things are really really BAD. Joyce talking to him though the wall and begging him to run and stay safe, promising she'll find him...

Do the portals really have to be so... membrany? And the way those pieces reknit across the portal in the lab, it looked almost like hands reaching across and grasping each other. Nope. Do. Not. Want. A real, primal revulsion moment.

I am impressed with Hopper's investigative skills, not so much with his romantic ones. Did you consider apologising properly for your behaviour and asking the understandably angry librarian for help properly? The bit with the fake body was really good, you could see him doubting himself and really having to psyche himself up to do it. I am not sure his one man mission into the lab is going to go well.

Running out of steam and coherentish sentences. But not of feels. Roll on episodes 5 and 6!

[demadogs]

what is your genuine opinion on byler rn do you think they're actually gonna be endgame? I doubt all the time this show has never been great when it comes to their queer characters

i completely believe its gonna happen for so many reasons but ill just tell you a few big ones.

will canonically loves mike. i cannot think of a single other fictional media where someone was revealed to be in love with someone else THIS far into the story and it ended up being unrequited. when stories are written about an unrequited crush and how they move on, they reveal that crush early on so we can see their character development over the course of the story. but with only one season left they missed the opportunity to tell the story that way. if they wanted will to just have a crush on mike and then find someone else, we wouldve known about his feelings probably by season 2.

they showed the worst of mike and el’s relationship in the same season that they revealed wills feelings. those two dont just happen simultaneously if its for nothing.

THEY ARE SO VERY CAPABLE OF WRITING AN ADORABLE AMAZING REAL COUPLE WHO LOVE EACH OTHER!!!!!!! SO WHY ON EARTH WOULD THEY CHOOSE NOT TO WRITE THAT FOR THE CENTRAL COUPLE OF THE SHOW IF THEYRE ENDGAME????!!! i would eat mlvn up if they wrote it in the dynamic of lumax but instead they had him struggle for literally HALF THE SHOW to tell her he loves her. and we see how painful it is for both of them to maintain the relationship.

mike suddenly becoming an asshole and the audience having no insight as to why hes treating el or will the way he is. mike was a lot of peoples favorite characters in s1 and 2 and then in s3 he was kinda a bitch. he lied to el instead of just telling her about hopper and then the rain fight with will. and this continues in s4 and gets even worse, especially with el. if the reason for this isnt internalized homophobia then its just a genuine plothole in the story and character development.

the lack of finn/noah interviews. this is mad suspicious. they are in almost every scene together this season and theres definitely stuff to talk about relating to their characters but they chose to separate both of them and not let them answer any of those questions together. but for the other “will they/wont they” couple, stancy, those cast members were often paired together (with maya and joseph but still). i also think its interesting that theres barely any finn and millie interviews from this season as well. i dont think theyre as strictly separated as finn and noah but most of millies press is either alone or with noah.

some honorable mentions:

perfectly framed mike in a closet during the mlvn kiss at the end of s3

the one way sign to the closet while hes reading her letter

track called “in the closet” playing over MIKE talking, not will

track “on the bus”, which played for lumax’s first romantically coded scene, playing during a byler scene

how mike and els breakup in s3 was shot compared to the rain fight (colorful, sunny, whole party watching, and comedic vs dark blue, pouring, alone, and emotional)

zero closure or insight on els thoughts of the monologue

first season that doesnt end with a mlvn kiss

and like ya know theres all these too

[devoteyrheart]

13. what traits does your muse value in a romantic partner? / any and all!

(from) ― romance & relationship headcanons! // @60104 13. what traits does your muse value in a romantic partner? / any and all!

phew this would be easier to answer if it was the opposite: what things they avoid/hate. also, whatever i write doesn't mean that the characters would never fall in love or have feelings for someone who doesn't match the descriptions i gave. there's always so much at play when you fall in love / feel drawn to a person but anyway!

CHARACTERS MENTIONED: mike zackarias, ilse langnar, marlene, jean kirstein, eld jinn, gunther schultz,  annie leonhart

━━━━━━━━━━━━━.⊹˚⁀➷｡.━━━━━━━━━━━━

ilse:

shared values. devotion. purpose. earnest. compassion. and willingness to grow . - if you're scared of / genuinely don't like being called out on your bullshit, she's not the woman for you. - she doesn't tolerate people canceling on her for shit like 'i don't feel like it' 'i fell asleep', she's surprisingly very ruthless about that kind of disrespect, but if, for example,  her bf told her 'i really need to focus on studying for this big exam so we aren't going to hang out this week but i'll call you once every day' she would literally feel so attracted to him and just fall even more in love. she's not right in the head. ilse doesn't believe in soulmates, she believes in people CHOOSING each other and looking in the same direction and walking towards it side-by-side... so yeah... purpose and devotion ( to themselves / their goals, and to the relationship ) are v big to her. - she likes having fun, but play dumb games with her? make her pick between her family / friends and you? lmfao, she won't try to reason with you or meet you halfway: you're out. - you need to understand her family dynamic, or at least make an effort to. ilse's family dynamic is a il nuanced and, in part, she blames herself for it. surprisingly her family doesn't meddle much, but they're people who are "simpler" i guess, and they are very set in their ways and their family dynamic. they've experienced significant loss, and ilse is the first one in the family to leave their circle ( which was a very hard pill to swallow ). also ilse is the baby of the family by many years so you need to be someone who isn't a pushover but also won't engage with / start conflict no matter how provocative or protective they get. it's delicate and you need to know how to navigate it while still being yourself and not apologizing for it ( because if you do, they'll stop respecting you 💀). 

eld: 

compassion, loyalty, sense of humor, curiosity, and a sense of adventure.. but they can't be too hyper or disorganized. he loves and desires a calming/grounding presence. as much as eld feels drawn to people who are extremely spunky, that's not who he wants to build a life with. he's ok with someone who can keep in on his toes / roast him / call him out but only if it actually makes sense.   also: you can't be someone who yells, especially during arguments. this guy is literally a child of a yelling marriage if you ever raise his voice at him or if he finds himself raising his voice at you: you're out. he won't even explain himself. you also can't be someone who believes (blood) family is everything - if you encourage eld to reconnect with his parents in a meaningful and lasting way: you're out.

mike: 

compassion, neatness, and someone who values quality time and hanging out outdoors. also someone who doesn't try to change him? he spent enough years analyzing himself and getting to know himself and evolving to be the person he wants to be: he's not going to change. mike has grown to become calm person and he rarely engages in conflict not because he's averse to it but because he knows, damn well, that if he throws a punch the other person will get knocked out. younger mike very much still lives in inside older mike: don't bring him out. if you encourage mike to be aggressive in any way, you're out.  also, if you're religious, you're out. i'm so sorry, he just can't go back to that. 

gunther:

patience, organization, no pushiness, and loyalty... but with a bit of spunk. this man will swear he has no patience for nonsense but he loves a woman with a good sense of humour that can help him relax and bring out his laid-back side. someone who reminds him that he can be emotionally vulnerable. someone who is ok with the fact that he has a kid. he doesn't see his kid a lot ( i will touch on this at some point eventually ) but in the future he does want to spend more time with his child and if that's a problem for you: you're out.   

marlene:

good sense of humor is essential to her. also someone who sees through her cool girl half-façade. she wants to be treated like a princess and spoiled, its the truth. she can absolutely spoil herself, but urgh she wants someone else to spoiler. she has a 'if i'm too much go find less' mentality and if you can't handle it that's your damn problem. you gotta b a lil intense, even if you're quiet, or else marlene won't feel drawn to you. 

annie:

someone who understands the need for personal time and individual pursuits. she probably wants to sleep in separate bedrooms at times ( only at times, ofc she likes cuddling too )  and if you can't deal with it you're not the right person for her. annie appreciates a dry and sarcastic sense of humor so she values a partner who can match her wit. someone who is patient and soft but not an enabler or a pushover: annie sometimes wants things but doesn't pursue them, so someone who is encouraging without being overbearing is perfect.  also, you can't be afraid of confrontation. for her, it's ok if your shy/quiet/introvert whatever the fuck, as long as you have a very strong spine. she will literally get the ick if you're too soft.

jean:

someone who is willing to grow, evolve, and talk things out ( don't go silent on him, please, don't shut him out - he copes very poorly with it ). someone who doesn't have their head in the cloud and who shows genuine empathy and understanding towards others.

[emblazons]

Oh yeah, hard agree on how people perceive Mlvn. Mlvn is portrayed as this dramatic, bombastic relationship where they have these angsty moments and loud 'ILY' moments and monologues, so it is automatically perceived as a great ship and dynamic. But as Caleb said, what makes Lmax real and genuine is that they are not like Mlvn. They do not need to show how much they love each other. Lumx's dynamic and love is real and feels natural due to that reason because they do not spell out how much they love each other, they rather show it to us by caring for each other naturally... And it's like, you really do not actually spell out how much you love someone in a dramatic scene with a dramatic speech, because it really shouldn't be needed in the narrative sense. But the media's perception regarding how a real romance should be is based on those cliche moments, and I cannot exactly blame Mlvns for that. Because, yeah, big monologues, love speeches, 'love at first sight' stuff, one character declaring or screaming how they're scared of losing their partner, just declaring how they love that person (in S3 with Mike)... those are casual and common things in media when it comes to romance.

So, do I think ppl do not exactly get the aspect of Lmx? Yeah. But do I blame them for thinking that Mlvn is a better romance due to all of those 'tropes' and common writing stuff that Mlvn was given on the show? Not exactly, no, I do not exactly blame those people for thinking that way. Bc the majority of the media does that all the time.

bro this been sitting in my asks for DAYS lmao I'm sorry. I assume this is response to my addition here, so I've kept that in mind!

But yes! agreed! A lot of people are so used to grand gestures being what is considered "romantic" in media (and, tragically, in real life) that they gloss over the romantic importance and value of friendship, familiarity and just. enjoying each other's company in the mundane.

I think the easiest way to think about it is to think about people in real life--the ones whose relationships have survived a long time. People who have been married or successfully coupled for 15, 20, 30+ years always tell you similar things when talking about what makes their relationship work long-term: namely "I married my best friend," "love is a decision you make not a feeling, because feelings evolve but I still chose your partner over and over," and "communication and forgiveness are core parts of what has made us successful."

Mike & El literally have none of that--they don't communicate effectively and haven't grown into doing so either I don't care what Mlvns say, don't lead with choice (but rather an expectation of feeling) and they don't share common interests anywhere outside of the goal to end the UD/physicality as their primary sign of romantic interest...which by the end of S4 isn't even there lmao.

Lumax on the other hand have slowly built to the "healthy" things I listed--they are actively contrasted to M*leven in S3 when Lucas showing that "romantic time" with his GF is hanging out with her and his friends together (which he actively calls Mike for not doing while doing those things for/with Will) on top of all the moments in S4 we see Lucas and Max slowly start to communicate, apologize, build back despite their disagreements/distance and then bond over/call to each other for by the end of the season.

By the end of S4, we have Lucas sitting bedside to Max reading to her, loving on her and being present even when she's at her lowest...whereas El walks passed Mike and doesn't even talk to him (per Mike's own admittance) despite him giving one of those bombastic love confessions we talked about, and Mike doesn't comfort her for anything related to Max (mostly because she won't let him, but that's beside the point). Lucas is doing what a great partner does (the "in sickness / for worse" part of things like wedding vows, honestly) while M*leven can't even bring themselves to do more than stonewall and pretend things are fine when they are decidedly not (especially when in front of other people).

Real talk is that its clear why Lumax is better suited to survive than M*leven if you have any sense of healthy relationship--but. I mean we know that "healthy relationship" has never been a real driver for why people ship Mike & El ☠️

thanks for the ask!

[grapesodatozier]

i hope you get well soon! i'm currently taking a break from physical therapy but i'm okay :) i do have a question though!

what made you ship wheelzier?

because you're the reason i'm so "normal" about wheelzier now so i'm pretty curious on what made you ship them!

- ♡

oh my god it's been so long this got totally buried in my notifs im so sorry!! thank you for your well wishes and your interest!!

tbh sadly most of the blogs and fics that got me into wheelzier are either deleted or inactive now ): but basically i saw some people talking about it, and it was the first crossover ship i ever got into so i was like "wait you can do that holy shit." and like, mike and richie are the two characters i am, as you put it, so "normal" about lmao like they're the characters i put the most thought into and love to analyze and write about the most, so i jumped at the opportunity. i also just think the losers club and the party fit really well together and there's a lot of interesting dynamics there and the franchises just mesh really well together tone wise, so that also helped. like, those are still the only two fandoms i've ever crossed over, so that helped for sure. and also like yes i love them both but the more i thought about it the more similarities i saw between them? and the more compatibilities i noticed? and how interesting their dynamic would be. bc like, they're both such attention givers if that makes sense? they both talk so fucking much and yet when it comes to needs i think they both focus more on other people but they both want attention and are both so surprised to realize when other people have been paying attention to them, or get so surprised to realize other people care about them and like them and don't find them weird, obnoxious, annoying, etc. and i just think two people like that being thrown into a romantic dynamic is VERY fun lmao. like, they both prove that they've been paying attention and they're like "hey woah what" lmao. they also both care SO much but are SO bad with words which is obviously incredible plot fodder lmao. also i feel like richie is always being a ham and being so touchy but hiding it with jokes and then mike just gives him genuine physical affection like he does all the time and richie just freezes like. o-oh. cool. and tries not to burst into tears lmaooo. they're both so repressed and have so much love to give and that's such an interesting dynamic to me!! also mike is smart and snarky which i think richie would love. and richie has such interesting tangents he can go on which i think mike would love. and i think they would both notice things about each other that others maybe don't notice bc of their similarities. guh i could think of a million little things about each of them and the reactions the other would have to it lol. also i love them so so so much and i want them both to have so much love. i have no idea if that answered your question lol but yeah i love them!! so yeah in terms of how i got into it i think it was a spiral as soon as i realized it was a possibility/made sense to ship my two favorite characters in all of media together lol

thank you again for the ask and sorry again for taking so long to get back to you!! it's so sweet of you to say i got you into them that makes me so happy!! hope you've been doing good anon!! <3

[roachemoji]

S2 09

GOING IN IMMEDIATELY

I LOVE THIS REUNION AND I UNDERSTAND THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE FRAMING THIS AS SO ROMANTIC ESPECIALLY FROM MIKE'S PERSPECTIVE BUT EL JUST!!!! THATS HER CLOSEST FRIEND THE FIRST PERSON WHO SHOWED HER THAT SHE WAS A KID!!!!! SHES LITERALLY JUST LEARNING THAT PLATONIC LOVE IS A THING AND FAMILIAR LOVE IS A THING CANT JUST THRUST HER INTO ROMANCE ???

ALSO MIKE GIVE HIM HELL BUT ALSO AKJDHAKJSDFHKDS HOPPER WAS RIGHT TO PROTECT HER AND YA KNOW YADA YADA

and MAXXXXX !!!!!!!!! kajhjkHADLJKASkh GIRLLL PEASE

Bro thats ltierally the gates to hell thats like that one city on top of that mine thats on fire and has been for years??? Yeah

HONESTLY ??? GIRL. I UNDERSTAND. IM SORRY YOUR MARRIAGE IS PROBABLY IN SHHAMBLES AND THIS IS THE ONLY ROMANCE YOU FEEL - fucKING I want Ted to Die.

CHOKES AND THROWS UP I UGH I MI ASKHJD WHA ? ? EUFAH I AM SO REPULSED I LITERALLY CANT EVEN BEGIN TO PUT INTO WORDS HOW FUCKING SICK I FEEL WHENVER THAT MAN IS ON SCREEN HIS VOICE MAKES ME AUGHGHHAKF H IVE NEVER HAD SUCH A VISCERAL REACTION BEFORE IN MY LIFE TO A BITCH ON SCREEN HOLY SHIT.

<- BILLY HATER

PUT THE BOY IN THE SAUNA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I still think ,,,, the solution ,,,,,, is that all three of u date. I stand by this. I have no favorites when it comes to the three ofthem i think theyd al lbe happy together and my opinion is only getting stronger

I have so many intense thoughts about Mileven stuff and also Hopper and El stuff but i cant even begin to put them into words or feel like i have the time to do it i am not BUILT for writting essays on stuff like this. but BOY do i have thoughts and feelings

Bitchin <3

REALLY LOVE THE PRACTICAL AFFECTS FOR THIS THING NOW!!!!! IT NOT BEING JUST CGI

STEVE REALLY SAID I AM THE BABY SITTER

i genuinely love the way he talks to them and collaborates with them like? BEING A VOICE OF REASON BUT ALSO UNDERSTANDING THAT THEY'RE RIGHT ?

oh gotta pause the sound of Billy's car pullingup made my stomach drop this man is so - if ANYONE puts billy apologist shit on my dash im gonna throttle you

"he can't know I'm here, he'll kill me, he'll kiss us" ooguSDHKhfjd oh!! haha!!!!!!! oOHHHFKA H A H A

<- guy with experiences and traumas genuinely having abit of a rough time getting through scenes with Billy but im WORKING THORUGH IT

ough this iS rouGH and

PLEASE JUST TAKE THE BAT TO HIS HEAD OR SOMETHING GOD I HAT EHIM SO MUCH

you know when life decides for wahtever reason youre gonna be surrounded by triggers and be reminded of some shit like multiple times all at once in a short span of time ??? Thats right now .

i hate how well written a lot of these characters are written sometimes like theres no reason you gotta be that realistic and human and terrible !!!!! therES NO REASON YOU HAVE TO REMIND ME OF PEOPLE IN MY LIFE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

KAJSHAKJDSHASKJHD THEM TAKING CARE OF HIM IS !!!! STEVE CONSTANTLY REALISTICALLY FREAKING OUT IS AND WALSY WILL BE MY FAVORITE THINGS THO!!!!!

STOPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP THE MEMORY OF BOB JONATHAN JUST !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THE BYERS LOVING EACH OTHER THIS MUCH THAT THEYRE WILLING TO DO WHATEVER IT TAKES TO SAVE EACH OTHER JUST MAKES ME FEEL RABID

ALSO all the BOYS written like kids? acting like kids? all their emotions being this bIG and LOUD and getting them into trouble ? BANGING MY DISTS ON THE TABLE !!!!!!!!!!

oh is the lab dude gonna be dead i hope so ive been waiting for that YEAHHH i feel like he knows her VERY well already Hopper IK YOU wANTTTT whats best for her but i dont think that mans getting out of there (he doesnt deserve to)

eowoiasdhkasjfhsKSJDFHDKFHSDDKFJH BRO REALLY UNDERSTANDING ALL THE EXORCIST COMPARISONS NOW GIRL WHAT THE FUCK - IRONICALLY FEL THE COMPARISON EARLIER WHEN I REMEMBER READING WHY AND HOW THEY CAST KIDS IN MOVIES WHERE THEY GET TO BE LITTLE FREAK MONSTERS AND HOW MUCH FUN THEY HAVE DOING IT !!!! ESPECIALLY IN MOVIES LIKE THE EXORCIST !!!!!!!!!!

BRO HOLY SHIT KAJDHKASJHD LOVE THAT IT WAS INTHE SIDE AND NOT SOMEWHERE VISIBLE

GOD

THATS ,,,, THE BITCH FROM LOST !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HOW MANY CONNECTIONS TO THAT SHOW DOES THIS ONE HAVE BC I WILL LOSE MY FUCKING MIND IF I HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT SHIT

Honestly really excite to see how Will's mental health plays into the rest of the show because oh my gODDD That poor boy must be traumatized?????????????? LIKE OUGAKSJDH I can relate to El and Max's experiences with my own but holy fuCCKKKK WILL ???????

THERE really is something so. ????

OH ITS DART YOU CAN TELL BC HES GREEN AND CUTE ALSO DUSTIN AS MUCH AS I TRUST YOU I ALSO DONT HE ATE THE CAT HE HAS LITTLE HANDS

BRought him fucKING 3 MUSKETEEERSSS

Dustin's living the little freak kid's dreams of befriending a literal monster ????

I KNOW THEY ALL MAKE IT I HAVE TO REMIND MYSELF OF THIS BUT STILL - oh theyre RUNNING OH THEY ARE GOING PLACES

Re: Lost Smoke Monster/Man in Black + El's powers ??? The Sonar Field they used to keep it away from the DHARMA shit ?? hope that makes sense i cant elaborate further

OH HE LIVED >:-(

,,,,, I forgive him for only a MOMENT because she deserves that!! El deserves to be a real Kid

STOP THEYRE USING THE CAMERA.

this goes right back to the,,,, HALLOWEEN EPISODE AND HOW I FELT WITH THEM JUMPING FROM LIKE!!!! seVERE trauma -> embarassing kid shit AND ITS EQUALLY AS UPSETTING TO THEM bc theyre a little kids and dont have great frame of reference

STOPPPP DUSTING DOING HIS HAIR ROUTINEEEEE GOD I LOVE HIM SO MUCH I LVOE HIM SO MUCH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SCREAMS FROM THE ROOFTOPS AND BANGS MY DISTS ON MY CHEST LOOK AT HIS HAIR LOOK AT HIM AND STEVEEEEE DRIVING HIM THERE and giving him HORRIBLE advice

MR CLARK !!!! his moustache makes me so happy

DONT MAKE FUN OF HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HE LOOKS SO HANDSOME STOP IT!!!!!!!

THE,,, SPI NNNN ,, LUCAS IM FUCKING ,,,, STOP THAT WAS SO AKJSHDKASJH STOP THE ARMS LENGTH IS !!!!

WILL LOOKING AT MIKE ??? WHE HE ASKED TO DANCE STOP,,,, BIG EYES. BIG EYES!!!!!

DUSTINNNN !!!!!!!!!!! HES GOT THIS. HE JUST KEEP STRYING I. PLEASE LITTLE MAN IM SO FUCKING !!!!!!!!! Why do some people wanna headcannon him as like aro/ace so bad my man is SO !!!! his understanding of relationships and desire for deep connections on a very romantic level iS !!! MY BOY DESERVES TO BE SEEN AS THE PINNACLE OF ROMANCE AND I can imagine its the same as he gets older (im not discounting other aro/ace peoples experiences ik its a spectrum - im on it)

AND NANNCCYYY YOU GET IT I LOVE YOU I LOVE YOU I LOVE YOU

SHES ALSO SO RIGHT HES MY FAVORITE TOO

Joyce n Hopper smoking together again like they used to ,,, i am still SO FUCKING PISSED ABOUT BOB

ELLLLLLLL !!!!!! SHE LOOKS SO CUTE HER LITTLE CURL !!!!!!!!!

SHES JUST AHHHHH !!!!!!!! YELLS AND BANGS MY DISTS ON THE TABLE

ALl of their dynamics really showing in all of th- oh they kissed and aKSJDHAKJDH HER REACTION WAS yea i did that the first time i kissed a boy too <3

OH SEASON 2 ENDING ON THE UPSIDE DOWN AGAIN AND THE ENDING MUSIC IS THE THEME AND NOT A SONG SO IM COUNTING THAT but only kinda bc i think th elast season ended on the theme song too ? whatever

GOOD FINALE I THINK !!!!!!!!!!!!! i have so many. thoughts ? that i dont know if i can get out - appreciate the people who cansit down and put together analysis on the indepth relationships and easter eggs and connections because my brain is only flooded with a lot of the psychological aspects of the characters relationships (and how much i fucking hate billy and also Max is me)

Stranger Things S2 01

this is just me live blogging watching ST none of my thoughts are v coherent enjoy <3

STARTING OFF REAL INTERESTING BUT REAL TALK when you have like a cool haircut how do you expect not to be found if u do a crime???? LIKE I LOVE YOUR MOHAWK AND I GET IT U DONT WANT TO COVER IT BC OBVIOUSLY BUT!!!!

this is NOT the focus obviously its about the fact theres other kids from the lab BUT AKSHDAKSJDKH

DUSTINNNN!!!!!!!!! I LOVE HIM SO MUCH IM SO GLAD WE'RE STARTING ON HIM KISS KISS KISS

not the reagan sign STOP STOP ITS BEEN 2 SECONDS I HATE TED THATS HIS NAME RIGHT FIGHT KILL DESTROY BITE BITE BITE BITE

also the boys have grown SO MUCH !!!!!!! i forget there was actual real time between when these were filmed KSJHD im so excited to see Will and his perpetual bowl cut

JOYCE MY MOM!!!!!!!!!! SHES SO PRETTY AND SO CONCERNED I JUST LOVE HER

THE CHIP EATING DUDE FUCKING !!!! REMINDS ME OF THAT FUCKER FROM MONSTER HOUSE???????

THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! HE REMINDS ME OF THIS ASKJDHASKJHDKAJSH

Will is so tiny ..... and little? oh hes being teleported into the fucking upside down again baby boy im so fucking sorry also ilu but why would you just walk outside away from wher eyour friends WERE to look at the horrifying shit world you were trapped and almost died in ????? aSDKJH

Im gonna have to DM you on discord or something so i can properly save all the things you have to say about the timelines and how the Russian shit plays into that because was anyone calling El (im assuming he's referring to her) is Russian??? IK this is possibly the third (?) timeline we've seen (genuinely let me know if i can do that its ok if not i forget tumblr has Dms)

ALSO WHO IS THIS GUY IM CRYING HES!!! WHAT A PI??? WHO ARE YOU

NANCY AND STEVE ALSO BESTIES IM CRYING STEVE IS hes trying so hard are they dating my brain is so full of queer shit that im so deadset on platonic hetero relationships - i paused for one second and unpaused and they kissed SO THAT ANSWERS MY QUESTION

idk what relationships to pay more attention to bc the dynamic between Mike and El interests me the most because of how compulsory everything feels and how El is going to navigate a completetly new environment and how Mike will cope with that? (im assuming its not well)

OH is this the !!! the guy that i see people talk about all the time YEAHHH THE BLOND MULLET MAN AND MAX what the fuck is his name Billy??? He looks trans

CRYING AT CHECKING OUT H IS ASS GIRL WAHT ASS HES FLAT HE HAS NOTH ING AKDSHASKHDKAJSH and those jeans are supposed to be supporting cheeks

I love Mr Clark so much and everyone who looks bored in his class just doesnt GET IT

BUT ALSO MAX I GET IT QUEEN the boys all staring are so good I FORGET THEY GO AS THE GHOST BUSTERS FOR HALLOWEEN

JOYCE MY MOM WHO IS THIS GUY HES??? GOOFY AND SHES SO HAPPY ??? BOB !!! i have no initial bad opinions of him bc hes silly and goofy and he makes Joyce so happy and she deserves to be SO SOSOS OS HAPPY and nothing but happy

IF i have to endure another god damn Hopper flash back im gonna throw up and scream and cry and lose my mind and I won't recover and I'll never come back

Im in call while I watch this episode because i really wanted to get through while and actually use my brain bc i don't that often - but my roommates bird is sitting next to her mic and farting really really softly into it and its making me lose my fucking mind

CORN MAZES WHEN YOURE TALL LOOK SO EASY AND LESS SCARY WHENEVER IM IN A FUCKING CORN MAZE ITS TERRIFYING AND I CANT SEE SHIT BC IM LIKE 2 FEET TALL

NANCCYCYY AND JOHNANATHANANSDNSAKDJ BESTIES BESTIES BESTIES BEST FRIENDS IM MAKING THEM A FRIENDSHIP BRACELET ITS THEIR FAVORITE COLOURS AND THEY NEVER TAKE THEM OFF

ADN STEVE TOO!!! IM SORRY YOURE A THIRD WHEEL BUT its the start of season 2 how do we feel about polyam relationships between them where the audience for that point me in the correct direction

DUSTIN IS RIGHT ALSO I LOVE HIM i love his little hats - MAX IS ALSO RIGHT

God i feel so ba for Will like to be??? singled out like that especially in elementary school? hell.

WHERE ARE THEY GOING TOGETHER WHAT IS HAPPENING ISNT THIS THE LAB ??? ougHHH THAt needle sound was unecessary

REALLY starting to see how this might be a different timelinei have no idea how ???? Joyce would.... trust them??? UNLESS THIS IS A HOSPITAL no its not ho films ina fucking hospital like this

also theyre mentioning the upside down

I understand needing to go back to the only place that fully understands that it exists and you need a place to talk to someone and also monitor him physically without being dismissed as insane - but i dont understand how Joyce OR Hopper would trust the Lab again after everything happened??????

I'm glad that he's actually getting help, and im glad that Joyce and Hopper are there to make him feel safe and support him given everything but !!!!!

this iS THE. He has PTSD. when did they get the word to describe that akjhaskjdh NVM HE JUST SAID IT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ALSO IS PRETENDING LIKE EVERYTHING IS NORMAL HELPFUL BC IT SURE THE FUCK IS N OT FOR ME ????????? also who is this DR hes kinder but "i need you to trust me" to JOYCE AFTER THE BRENNER SHIT ???

also them NOT MENTIONING IT WHEN THEY LEAVE BUT JOYCE UPSET ABOUT THE WHOLE "i need you to trust me" THING B UT NOT BRINIGN UP BRENNER?????? susususususus timeline shit anyway EM @ me tell me wahts up kiss kiss mwuah mwuah

OH they've upped their guinea pig game on entering the upside down and the gatelooks fucking uglier and uglier LOVE THE TORCH glad it works but no wonder the gate looks angry???

DUSTINNN I LOVE H IM I LOVE HIM SO MUCH

ough i have a feeling her older brother is gonna ..... trigger me a lil but we'll get through it

THEM BOTH HAVING A CRUSH ON HER!!!!!

If YouR fRiEnD jUmPs OfF a ClIfF 🔪🔪🔪🔪🔪🔪🔪🔪🔪🔪🔪

THEYRE GOING OVER TO HAVE DINNER WITH BARBS FAMILY STOP STOP STO PST OPST OPST IM GONNA CRY Oh they hired a P.I okay yeah the bald guy he..... HIS CARD STOPPPPP

realizing they defenitely can't tell her parent's what actually happened to her an di hate that im gonna oaufkahd girl im so sorry im so sorry im so osrry UPSET BC SHE AS A CHARACTER DID NOT DESERVE TO DIE I WISH THEY HADN'T DONE HER DIRTY LIKE THAT

all the photos of her would make me so ill to look at like god NANCYYY THE GUILT AND B LAME GIRLIEEEE

also Mike rebelling after experiencing that kind of trauma and losing Will and El even though Will came back he's not the same of corse he's struggling - calling it with the !!!! WALKIE TALKIEEEE girl i miss her too

YEAHHH ITS dustiNNNN BUT HE AKSHDKAJSH

DUSTINNN IM KAHSDKJH I LOVE HIM I LOVE HIM SO MUCH HES SO SILLY !!!!!!!!!!!!! HES THE SILLY IN MY HEART

HONESTLY props to him again for not like invesigating something that was probably gonna be HORRIBLE he'd survive a horror movie

JOYCEEEEE IN MY FAV SHIRT SHES SO KISS KISS KISS KISS

Johnathan is such a good brother bro BUT ALSO WILL IS SO RIGHT I GET IT I GET IT I UNDERSTAND TREATING IT LIKE ITS NORMAL MAKES IT WORSE !!!! SOMETHING HAPPENED PLEASE ACKNOWLEGE THAT and JOHANATHANNN HES THE FREAK AND A WEIRDO

STOPA SDADKSHJ iT S THAT WHY YOU DONT HAVE ANY FRINEDS SHUT UP STOP STOP /POS

BOB i love you so far and ik that being a step parent in these situation (even tho hes only dating Joyce its the same) is so hard especially when there are kids involved BUT YOURE DOING SUCH A GOOD JOB

AND THEYRE ALL WATCHING THE MOVIE TOGETHER AHHH

ew the phone the trigger GIRL YOU GOT THIS ITS OKAY ITS OKAY BUT ALSO THATS SUCH A HORRENDOUS RINGTONE WHAT THE FUCK

love me a tech who accidentally ignores the alarms going off (i couldnt hear the song playing it feels important - unintentially placing importance on all the music in this show now thank u em)

OohuaAHDAKJH OH WILL IS GONNA get ,,,,, yoinked back again isn't he ouguhadhAKHDJS interesting that it really only affects the *outside* like doors are now portals in a way ? i cant remember if it affected the inside of the arcade immediately or not

OH MIST LOOKING MOTHER FUCKER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wood Waffle Hours !!!!!!!!!! OH NO CABIN HOURS??? IS SHE. IS SHE. BIG EYE BALL EMOJIS LET ME SEE MY GIRL LET ME SEE THE BABY GIRL !!!! this entire scene makes it seem like shes a fucking AKSJDHA freak ass creature

HER HAIRRRRR SHES SO CUTE STOPPPP HOPPERS LITTLE SMILE IM TEARING UP AND CRYING ACTUALLY LOOK AT THEM LOOK AT THEM LOOKA T THEM OUGHHAHAHHHHHHHH IM HEAVING

thank u for reading these were my thoughts

[chirpsythismorning]

Mike called out for El on the walkie every day for 353 days and yet he made no effort to actually search for her, not like he did with Will. There were a couple notable signs El could be alive, and yet Mike didn't make much effort to really test those theories. Whereas with Will it seemed like a lost cause pretty much the entire time, (they even found his body) but when there was a sign of hope, he took it and ran with it and didn't give up until they found him.

This is why I'm genuinely scared for it to finally be revealed in s5 how exactly Mike coped with only talking to Will a couple of times since the Byers moved to Cali...

Because if byler is endgame, they're going to need to uncover a lot of those hidden details. How do they convince the audience Mike likes Will romantically, but not El, if he kept touch with her like that in s2, but didn't do that for Will in s4? If anything they're going to have to go above and beyond to prove that it's obvious he likes Will more romantically, and a letter a day is fitting the bill tbh....

If they want people to root for them in the end, they're gonna need to give everyone a reason to, in terms of Mike's feelings for Will. Of course we want them to be together because Will's feelings are very obvious, but that's also why we're due for some balance in their dynamic , which means including Mike's side of things truly, not just what he's willing to tell us while also leaving out the full truth.

[castlebyersafterdark]

am i just biased or does byler just feel more real, more present, more powerful than these others? esp rovickie. it feels like a tv show. byler, somehow, feels genuine. i truly escape into their relationship as if its real. rovickie is melodrama and television. idk, maybe it's cos weve grown up with the boys? they feel like real stranger things somehow. from this post comparison...

https://www.tumblr.com/heheidks/762513327491547136/rovickie?source=share

I am also deep in the bias so can't help you there, just encourage correct takes 😉 But - there is something to be said for where the heart of the show truly lies. It's WILL. That's why it's hitting so hard for those invested in it. His story is the thread for all of Stranger Things. He is the reason we have the show. He's the first mystery, the first character we're to care about. And now? We're following his journey to self-acceptance and finding reciprocal love. It's been planted from the beginning. The slow burn is a steady smolder. We get to see the boys as young kids, we KNOW they are best friends. We see Mike fight and fight to get him back, mourn him so emotionally, and then fight again to raise this special boy in his life from the dead. We see Dustin and Lucas and El fight to get him back to, but they wouldn't have gone as hard if not for Mike. It's Mike and Will, from the beginning.

And we follow the journey. The ups and downs. And we still have a full season to go. Their story is currently the deepest one (romantically) without a resolution yet. Joyce and Hopper have been on a path just as long - but they were adults, they didn't have that lifetime we as an audience get to see. The formative years. And Jopper got together already. Everything after builds upon, but not up-to. Yes, we have Nancy and Jonathan as well who have a long storyline, but they got together season 2 and get to work through the established era, even with ups and downs. Robin and Vickie - I do really really enjoy them. But we've had Robin for much less time than we've had Will and Mike, and Vickie even less so. Doesn't mean they're not interesting or important - but the show isn't built upon them. It's built upon Will (and Mike).

They are not the Stranger Things - but the Stranger Things are in comparison to them, I will stand by it until the end regarding my very cheesy explanation!! There are stranger things in the world of Hawkins than two boys who are best friends in the 1980s falling in love and getting their happy ending together!!! AHHHHHH 🥰🥰

[mikesbasementbeets]

i’ve been thinking a lot about elmax recently and how it seems like the show is genuinely setting them up romantically, while also consistently establishing max and lucas as a romantic pair

keep in mind, this is the show that has been setting up byler since season 1. they seem to know what they’re doing when it comes to queer coding, so i refuse (for the purposes of this analysis at least) to believe they’re unaware of what they’ve been doing so heavily and blatantly with elmax, and also with max in particular (el too, but i’m focusing on max).

i've talked about why i think mike wheeler is gay. this is why i think max mayfield is bi. and elumax should be endgame.

queer coding of max mayfield

right off the bat: her name. max. just like el was at first, due to her shaved head, max is mistaken for a boy by those who don't know her. first the party, who see the name madmax at the arcade, and later dr. owens in season 4 (he might even assume that she's el's boyfriend). when she's first introduced by mr. clarke using her full name, maxine, she quickly corrects him. it's max.

this leads into the larger point of queer coding around max. her androgynous fashion sense, the way she carries herself, distancing herself from performative femininity, ie, playing video games ("girls don't play video games,"), skateboarding, making friends with an all male friend group, her general "tomboyish" presentation and attitude - all of it reads as heavily queer coded to me. i'm not saying that any of these things is necessarily queer, or mean that a person in real life is queer, but the way it all comes together in max feels like a purposeful character choice.

i'm not an expert in queer coding so there's probably a lot i'm missing, but one of the biggest signs for me is max's constant association with rainbows. the other characters have their color palettes, and max has rainbows. literally. as many times as mike and will have been coded with rainbow imagery, max is drowning in it.

and then there's the most important piece of queer coding... her relationship with el. i'll come back around to that though, because i want to talk about boys first. because clearly, max does like boys.

this shot is largely played for comedic relief, but it actually does something important for the narrative i think. it establishes again, with a max that has (once again) broken up with lucas for reasons she doesn't seem to have really explained, that max is attracted to men. my optimistic reading of it is honestly, "hey, we know what we've been doing here with max, so just in case you were thinking she's a lesbian... she's not." ...or if you want a different fun read of it... max realized she likes girls recently (i'll get to that) and is just making sure she still likes boys. ladies dig it? do they steve? oh, wait, yeah.

she's also talked about other boys with el in the past, showing pretty unambiguous interest in them

(these scenes are still so gay though seriously... "you must be an angel".... contrasting milven's scene where el didn't like mike's singing... rainbowsrainbowsrainbows... talking about kissing and then emulating a spin the bottle game, later introducing el to wonder woman while they're in bed together, waking up together always rainbows come ON)

and of course, the other most important part of this, her relationship with lucas, which is shown continuously to be one of real, romantic attraction. in season 2, this was mostly established through contrast with her relationship with dustin, who also had a crush on her. max and lucas start off by becoming close as friends, and then begin to develop a romantic connection. max and dustin, meanwhile, are established several times as not clicking in the same way that max and lucas do. they have heart-to-hearts that feel intimate and genuine, and, as steve and dustin discuss, are layered with the kind of "electricity" that denotes mutual attraction.

at the same time though, while we understand that it's genuine on both sides, we're shown that max and lucas' relationship is far from perfect.

for a couple that reads as endgame and has parallels with several of the other endgame couples, they also parallel a lot of the obviously not endgame couples. i'm gonna come back around to that too. first, the other thing.

romantic coding of elmax

elmax. honestly, i can't even get into everything i want to, because it's literally everything about them.

first of all, the start of their friendship is byler romantic coded

"i just walked up to you and i asked... it was the best thing i've ever done."

this sequence in particular though. this is. so bi coded i'm going insane. (also rainbows rainbows rainbows)

not hopper, not mike. you. (there's more to life than stupid boys. *HOLDS HER HAND*)

the next sequence is also pretty gay imo but is also kinda just gals being pals, so i'm gonna focus on the song, Material Girl by Madonna. this is definitely meant to be about eleven here, finding herself, away from mike (and it's also just a great shopping montage song), but the shot layout also subtly indicates that it applies to max and lucas too.

"some boys hug me, some boys kiss me, i think they're okay." and what about girls, max? what do you think of them? el? opinions?

(the clothes are emulating a literal rainbow flag behind her ok red yellow blue green purple and max is the orange she's part of the flag like shut UP i can't do this anymore)

and. okay. look, i'm not going to fully explain this one but i need to point it out.

getting back at the straight girl bullies (shown flirting with a boy) in front of a burger king. max taking off her sunglasses (we've talked about the symbolism of mike's shades in season 4) as they run away holding hands. taco bell coming soon. "there's more to life than stupid boys." like. am i reading way too much into this? (yes)

even back to their first meeting though, i'm seeing the seeds being planted. go ahead and read this as purely platonic admiration if you want, i don't care, but there's no way in my mind, especially after seeing seasons 3 and 4. like imagine you're a young bi teenage girl who's been hearing stories about this awesome girl with superpowers who saved everyone's life and then mysteriously disappeared, and then she suddenly mysteriously reappears, saves your life too, and walks in looking like this

personally, my tiny gay heart would stop.

yeah

but let's actually move on to season 4 for a minute.

season 4 was setting up canon bisexual max

i'm going to argue something here that i don't have a ton of actual evidence for: i think one of the reasons max broke up with lucas after season 3 is that she realized her feelings for el. max's arc in season 4 is all about her dealing with the trauma of last season, and guilt for her role in what happened. the guilt is extremely important to this. it's a big part in why vecna chooses his victims: not just kids with trauma, but kids who feel shame surrounding their trauma. most of that for max obviously has to do with billy's death. but i think there's something else that max is dealing with too.

as soon as i started season 4 i was struck with strong “queer max” vibes. first of all, her more feminine and rainbow splashed outfits from season 3 have been replaced again with the more tomboyish, androgynous style of season 2. and then there's the first sequence we get to running up that hill (which starts, funnily enough, on a scene of el walking down the hall at school, upset). the first time i watched this i was literally shocked because it read so explicitly queer to me.

first, max looks at group of girls (thinking about el, most likely)

her gaze trails after them, and then, next shot, max looks at a couple kissing

and then max looks at lucas

only after watching it again did i realize it didn't necessarily have to be queer coding (if you take it as max missing her friend and then, separately, her ex-boyfriend) but holy shit, if that's what they meant, they did NOT have to put the couple making out in between those two shots, with further shots of max looking away almost guiltily. we all know that lucas was max's boyfriend. they didn't have to precede that shot of him with the shot of the couple. that's already their established dynamic (and we haven't even learned at this point that they've broken up).

what's not been established yet though, is the idea of max and el as a couple. and i think..... that's possibly what's being hinted at here through max's perspective. the sequence of shots is so telling: 1. girl friends, 2. couple kissing, 3. ex-boyfriend. guilt. what i'm getting from this sequence of shots is that max's friendship with el is something she's thought about in a romantic light. max is making this association. and feeling guilty about it when she looks at lucas. whom, despite their closeness still at the very end of season 3, months after starcourt, she has since broken up with. the reason the show establishes for this is that max has been pulling away from everyone since billy's death, dealing with the fallout in her family, her mother's emotional absence and alcoholism, etc, and her own grief, guilt, and trauma around it. that makes perfect sense, and i'm not saying it's not true. but i think el moving away was also a factor.

it wasn't until season 4 that max was shown to have really pulled away, after el moved to california. maybe it's a reach, maybe it's nothing, but max as a character is so similar to mike, who was shown to have exactly this response to the byers' moving away: isolating himself and pushing away his friends, suffering his depression alone, and talking to no one about it. meeting el in season 3 showed us a new, bubbly happy side to max (that, yes, probably also came from the rest of her friendships and lucas, but el's is the one we were shown). max and el spend almost the entire season together, and max is undoubtedly going to be affected by her best friend moving away. especially if, like mike, it feels like she's losing more than a friend.

it's not just those shots though. when lucas tries to talk to her later, telling her he knows something's wrong... as soon as she turns around, there's a rainbow.

"right, yeah, there must be something wrong with me because i broke up with you."

then in dear billy, lucas confronts her again. and the language reminds me of karen's speech to mike in season 1. and jonathan's to will in season 4. "you know you can talk to me, right? i'm here for you."

guilt and shame are a big part of max's plot this season. the two characters most associated with that for max are billy and vecna - max feeling guilt over billy, and vecna using that guilt against her.

and those scenes also feel intentionally queer coded to me.

and then there's the dear billy flashback sequence.

while she's trying to escape vecna using her happiest memories, max is also comparing her relationships with lucas and el. they are both friendships. and they are both romantic. she thinks of them in alternating flashbacks. lucas, then el, then lucas and dustin, then el, then max's face, then lucas and dustin, then el, then max's face, and then this particular sequence: lucas, el, mike.

this may a reach, but... if she has feelings for el, she's probably feeling guilty around mike, too. this is the only shot of mike in the sequence. after this, in quick succession, it's lucas, then lucas, then lucas, and then el.

then lucas, then lumix snowball kiss, then max's face, then high fiving el, then her eyes open, and she breaks free

there are more shots of lucas than of el, but that's just the thing: max keeps trying to just think of lucas (because, as shown by the shot of mike, the way she's thinking about el makes her feel guilty, which is the opposite of what she wants), but el keeps coming back in. she thinks of her first kiss with lucas, and then thinks of high fiving el after they "dumped their asses." and that's the shot that breaks her out.

(and the song itself? 1. birthdaygate coded, 2. ROMANTIC. baby, darling, angel. you must be an angel. the voice of an angel saving victor creel from henry, el saving max. i'm reaching again. but. seriously.)

and then the flashbacks in episode 9 (and i'm not even touching el's flashback montage here). it's so difficult to be brief about this because they're literally doing SO MUCH here. i'm might have to make a separate post with every shot in this sequence because it's so good. (edit: here)

literally just. go back and watch the entire thing if you need to, but i need to go through this. elmax is unbelievably romantic coded this episode. there is no getting around it.

max chose the snow ball as her happy memory to hide from vecna in, but it didn't work. when vecna finds her, he says, "you can't hide from me, max." max turns around and, with a determined look, closes her eyes. closing her eyes almost seems like she's trying to keep hiding, but facing the door where venca is feels more like defiance. she's not going to try to hide anymore...

in the first shot, she spins the bottle in her mind, and her memories flicker from her first time meeting lucas, to the movies with lucas, to the start of her friendship with el, back to the spinning bottle, and then. the last two shots repeat. movie date with lucas, el approaching her in the street. but the lucas shot flickers shorter, and the el shot lingers, and then it's max's mom tying her hair too tight for the snow ball.

like maybe... this wasn't her at her happiest. forced conformity is killing the kids, right?

and the bottle flickers in again and it's el. it's max dancing in el's room, you must be an angel...

and then we come back to max's face and there are rainbows reflecting in the light

"is mike a good kisser?" el laughing, more rainbows

after that, she gets distracted by vecna and broken out of her memories, and when el shows up, max asks,

"are you real? did i make you?" she was thinking so strongly of her memories with el, she thought that it had worked.... and everything is romantic coded, there's nothing even to argue for here, it's just. there. seriously, like. just watch the episode. it's elmax.

after this the focus goes back to el mostly and it's still extremely romantic but i can't get into it anymore, i need to focus on max.

the way it all ends brings me back to the elumax question again. because right here, i'm clearly seeing elmax/byler vs. lumix/milven. paralleling mike's love monologue failing to help el, lucas' protection, both physically and in her mind, was not enough to save max.

that was el. that was el that saved her. (of course, she saves your life because of "friendship")

el's love for max is what saved her. not mike. not lucas. elmax.

going back to the latter half of season 3... el and max's relationship progressed very quickly through shared trauma, and max is the one there for el all season... and when billy dies, el is the one who holds her.

season 3 also made it clear that max's relationship with lucas wasn't without flaws.

all of the romantically inept things that mike was doing with el? lucas was doing them first, max was breaking up with him, and lucas was later advising mike on how to fix it. and especially by the end of the season, max seems much more like she's in el's corner than lucas'.

why i think it's possible max and lucas might end up as friends

after she's broken up with him in season 4, lucas spends most of the time just trying to be her friend again. he doesn't even seem bothered by their breakup (although we don't know how long ago it was), he seems to really just want her in his life again, to talk to him.

and, yes, they spend season 4 rebuilding the relationship in a way i think would be beautiful to see work out romantically. but i don't think it's inevitable. (remember that they also rebuilt stency this season.... as much as they might like each other, we've been shown in past seasons that their romantic relationship was flawed.)

i wish i could get into all the parallels, because they're the biggest part of what confuses me on the show's endgame goals but i really can't because it would take up an entire post. the duffers love parallels, obviously, it's one of their main narrative techniques at this point. and i think they usually work really well, because they're not trying to show that each of these characters or couples is exactly the same. they use parallel situations to exemplify the small details that make each character and relationship unique.

for example, milven and stency often parallel each other, but they're not quite the same. i don't think mike ever had genuine romantic feelings for el. he thought he liked her, but ultimately he's gay. nancy, on the other hand, did genuinely have a crush on steve (hc her as a lesbian if you want, i fully support that, but i think the show thinks she likes boys). that is the show's example of a teenage crush that sparks and then fizzles, not turning into deeper love.

whereas lumix, which also sometimes parallels these two ships (for example, their habit of sitting across from each other rather than beside. not always though... they're inconsistent), i believe is an example of a love that is real and genuine... but might not be meant to last forever. because in addition to those other two, they also parallel byler, jopper, and jancy, which i believe are endgame ships.

to be honest... all of this makes me believe even more firmly in gay mike too. because unlike mike’s complete lack of romantic feeling for el, or nancy's naive crush on steve, this is a narrative that sets up genuine, but possibly not everlasting love. a bi character discovering her sexuality by falling for her best girl friend while she’s dating a guy she also really likes. i think lucas is max’s first love, but not her only.

however

all this said, i also think it's very likely that lucas and max will end up together, and el might end the show on her own. lucas and max are NOT milven or stency, and whatever flaws they have don't necessarily spell out a doomed relationship. there's a lot of good there too, i just didn't get into it here.

and el's whole character arc has been about family, friends, and finding herself outside of other peoples' influence. i think this could still work if she were with max, since max has always been the most supportive of el's independence and self-fulfillment, but i can really see the show ending with el on her own, and it being a natural and positive conclusion to her journey

either way though, i think with everything they've been doing, they might actually confirm in canon that max and el have romantic feelings for each other (...or indicate it so obviously that they think it’s undeniable and then later confirm in interviews when most viewers don’t get it because they’re too subtle for their own good)

anyway, here's how elumax can still happen

look, i don't really trust the show to be able to pull this off, mostly because it just. isn't something that's done. not in popular media like this. but honestly, it's hard for me to grasp all of this because it feels like the show is telling me that max belongs with both el and lucas. i think most people assume she will end up with lucas after the way their relationship was rebuilt in season 4, and i think that absolutely makes sense. but i truly think elmax has been built up just as much, just a lot more subtextually. it's just that no one expects it to actually happen. 1, because lumix not ending up together would feel pretty disappointing after all this build up, and we don't want to see lucas, who truly loves max, end up alone. especially when max loves him too. and 2, because of heteronormativity - most people assume elmax are only being set us as friends, regardless of whether they're picking up on the romantic coding. and the "norm" is one romantic partner per person. but max needs el just as much as she needs lucas, and the ending season 4 proved that. lucas holding max in his arms, thinking he's alone with her, but then we see that el is actually there too. right alongside lucas. el saved max's life after she died in lucas's arms.

i could just give up and assume that elmax is platonic and they're giving max both a romantic and a platonic love story, but as i've already talked about, max is queer, and her dynamic with el is romantic. (theres so much evidence of this from el's side too that i just didn't get into)

going into season 5, max is in a coma. we already know that lucas is spending his time at her bedside. and i think it's fair to assume, based on el's priorities after the pizza dough freezer, ignoring mike completely to stay with max and lucas, and to revive max, she's going to be very focused on max too.

this is already way too long but i'm almost done, i want to briefly talk about lucas and el's dynamic from season 1. of all the party members, lucas was the most skeptical and deeply wary of eleven. he didn't trust her, and she ended up inadvertently hurting him when he fought with mike. but over the course of the season, they both learned to trust each other, having moments together than felt just as important as el's friendship with mike.

if season 5 is a return to season 1 dynamics, especially seeing the way season 4 left these two characters (sharing the same priority - max), i think lucas and el will spend a decent amount of time in season 5 together, or at least share a plotline (around max?). now that they're finally being given the chance to actually spend time together, i can see them growing much closer next season, maybe even leading to a mutual understanding and acceptance of both of their feelings towards max (maybe even falling in love?). and if max wakes from her coma to discover that the guilt and shame she's been suffering around her feelings for these two people is actually unnecessary, and that they can all be happy with each other, in whatever way they decide, even if other people might not understand?

*slides the duffers $5*

that would be an absolutely iconic ending.

[kaypeace21]

Sigh.Look... I've been thinking . Don't get too excited or optimistic . I just been thinking about how weird some of the parallels are.

"Lost"

Both mike (directly) and Will (indirectly) say they feel "lost" without eachother. But Mike may feel guilty if he believes El is "lost" without him.

"Truth"

Mike seems worried about El not liking his "truth". The "truth" is he misses Will. And Mike says the "truth"(that el may not like to hear ): is that the only reason they're together is because she needed someone positive in her life- and he was just there at the right time ( and it's not romanctic "fate"/"destiny "- just happenstance). Then Mike wheeler pretty much says the opposite to el (in relation to the woods):"love at first sight in the woods " -which is literally something related to fate/destiny.

Like why? Did Mike believe Will's lie - about the confession/painting/ "heart line' being from El ? So he changed his mind about this prior statement- because now he's more secure in his relationship with El (based on thinking Will's words were El's )? Is Mike lying again to El? I do think he loves her but like - is it not romantic (but familial)and some lines aren't 100 percent genuine? But what he thinks El wants to hear? Especially if he thinks those words will save her . And Will is literally encouraging him to say it .

Does Mike just think Will in the car was emotional and crying cause he thinks Will just really cares for his step sibling (el) -and that Will wants m*leven back together because of it? So mike is like "time to conform" - especially cause Will isn't into me . And is encouraging me to be with El.

And, or, is Mike just genuinely confused about his feelings for the 2 and scared to leave El romantically-for something scary and different? Especially if mike doesn't think Will reciprocates. Plus, Mike "cares' about El. And Will says to Mike she "needs' him and is "lost" without him. So he may feel he can't ever break up with her because of obligation, guilt (plus , loving her in a non romantic way).

And does Mike kind of feel like Will's speech -is about both Will's & El's feelings ?

Like.... is it that? Or just weird cliche (plot hole filled) writing. And good old queerbaiting . Cause besides the fact Mike didn't treat el like he fell in " love at first sight" with her (in s1). Mike would have just been a douche to Will and others- cause he's straight and obsessed with el . The fact mike in his love confession to el has lines that Brenner says to her. Is also ick. Especially cause m*leven is compared to family members in every season of the show. Even El defeating vecna after hearing "I love you" from her mother and mike- is another familial parallel. Talked about all the other m*leven /family/brenner parallels from s4 and past seasons- here. Not to mention - Mike needing to feel "needed" by El, and his hero worship of el isn't healthy. The hero line made her feel insecure previously (and it's just another weird parallel since in s4 Hopper was El's "hero"). Plus, they literally never fix their other relationship issues (spying, lying, neglecting their friends for one another,and poor communication). The season literally ends with mike saying El hasn't talked to him much.

Also, I mean again could just be queerbaiting but the fact el/will/mike is also paralleled to vickie/bf/robin. And Vickie has an s.o and is secretly into Robin - could mean something. There's Def some parallels between mike/Will and vickie/ Robin.

And again the framing at the end: (with byler and other romantic pairings next to eachother ) while El is alone next to the same flowers mike picked for her-literally rotting. The fact they also paralleled byler to lumax - it's all suspicious.

I refuse to have hope ... not again God. But i'll mention it anyways... just In case. Cause they're definitely throwing "crumbs" at us bylers. What their intention is, in doing so - is hard to say though.

[background-character-341]

Okay, so I've decided to finally write this analysis that's been kicking around my brain for way to long.

Also, just a note before we start: I wholeheartedly believe that byler is endgame and Mike loves Will. Therefore this analysis was written with that in mind. If this bothers you for some reason, keep scrolling.

So, without further ado:

Stranger Things 4 and Romantic Monologues

We all love to shit on Mike's monologue and how it was a complete and utter failure as a declaration of love. We also love to heap praise on the van scene as a romantic moment. But these two aren't the only two romantic monologues in season 4, and if we take a closer look at them, there's a pattern regarding which ones work and which ones don't.

Mike

So Mike's monologue is objectively bad as a declaration of love. There are a million analyses on how bad it is. And it's very bad. Mike is lying the entire time, uses words that are a direct callback to things said to El by her abuser, and has to be prompted by her brother. Not to mention the fact that the entire thing was in response to Will's feelings, not hers. Mike barely pays any attention to what El actually wants, instead giving her what he thinks she wants. Yeah, Mike told El that he loved her. But it was never really about hearing him say I love you. I won't dive too deep into that; go read this post if you want to know more. But the general gist of it is that the only reason El wanted to hear him say I love you was because Mike wasn't making her feel loved. And his monologue didn't fix that because it didn't come from his heart. It was fake and riddled with romantic cliches and had to be wrenched out of him by the image of her choking on the table in front of her. It's very bad.

Steve

So Steve's monologue is technically two monologues, but I'm going to treat it as one for the purposes of this analysis. I absolutely despise these monologues. But we're already off to a better start than we were with Mike, because Steve is being genuine. You can tell because he isn't falling back on romantic cliches or what he's supposed to say in a moment like this. His six little nuggets speech feels genuine because that is how he feels. It's all coming from his heart.

The problem with his monologue, and the reason why I hate it, is that it doesn't take into account what Nancy wants. And we know that she doesn't want any part of the future he's envisioning for himself because she goes out of her way to tell us. She says, "That sounds like a nightmare". She is very clearly not on board with this plan and the writers make sure we know that.

So while Steve's monologue is genuine, we have yet another romantic monologue that ignores what the person on the receiving end actually wants.

Jonathan & Nancy

This one's a bit of an outlier. Technically, it's two monologues: one from Jonathan and one from Nancy. But they're set side by side like a dialogue, so it makes more sense to look at them as one.

Unlike the previous two declarations of love, these two actually take into account the person on the receiving end. They're about their qualities and strengths and what they see in them. We already know they love each other before they ever say it because you don't talk like that about someone you're not in love with.

But this is also the first time we've seen an endgame couple say the word love in relation to each other. And after they both say they love each other, Nancy insists that everything is fine in their relationship, and you can hear the bitterness in her voice. She's lying. And we find out later that everything isn't fine in their relationship, and they are in fact having communication issues. Their monologues did nothing to change that. They did nothing to fix their problems.

The monologues are genuine. We can feel that. We never doubt that they actually love each other. And we can see that in their reunion in episode 9. But they don't address the actual problems they're having. Something's still missing.

Lucas

As they're walking to skull rock, Lucas and Max have one of the most important conversations for rebuilding their relationship in season 4.

Lucas in this scene is reassuring Max with this monologue. Telling her that she doesn't need to hide anymore because he understands that she's going through something hard and he's here for her. It's a monolgue that's tailored to Max's insecurities. When Max tries take on some of the blame for their relationship falling apart, Lucas immediately shoots her down because he knows that she has so much guilt over what happened to her brother, and what she needs right now is someone to tell her that it's not her fault. Lucas tells Max that he sees her because he knows that she has been feeling invisible.

I see you aren't inherently romantic words, but they do more for Lucas and Max's relationship than any I love you ever has for any other relationship in this show, because they are the words that Max needs to hear.

And that's the crux of it really. This monologue works because it's what Max needs to hear. It's about acknowledging her feelings and reassuring her insecurities. It's about bridging the gap between the two of them.

Joyce

Joyce and Hopper have two romantic moments after they reunite: one right after, and then one at the church. The first one is basically Joyce telling Hopper that they missed him and the second one is her telling him that he was worth that whole trip. Unlike Lucas's monologue, they're both much more romantic moments, but they still follow the same basic formula. Joyce is telling Hopper what he needs to hear.

Hopper's main insecurity is that he only brings sadness and death to the people around him. But here Joyce is telling him that that's not true. They missed him. They want him around. She even brings in El as proof of this. And she's telling him that he's worth it. He's worth all that money, he's worth getting captured, he's worth crashing a plane in Russia. He's worth it. And they missed him.

Will

So, finally, the van scene. This scene has been analyzed a million times. I have gone from thinking that Mike is an idiot with rocks in his brain to being convinced that he knew exactly what Will was talking about here. This scene has so many layers, so much to be looked at and analyzed, and there's no way I can do it justice. This is where I direct you to this analysis. Just go read it, it's amazing.

But from the perspective that we're looking at, from the perspective of romantic monologues and why they work in Stranger Things, this one follows the same formula that the last two have. Will in this scene is doing the same thing for Mike that Lucas did for Max and Joyce did for Hopper: he's reassuring Mike. Mike feels insecure in his relationship with El. He feels like he's not important. Like he's nobody, and nobody needs him. And Will is telling him, "No. You are somebody. You are important. You make (El) feel like she's not a mistake. (El) needs you Mike."

The reason Mike is so moved by this monologue is that this is everything he has ever wanted to be told. And for the first time he feels loved. And Will never once said those three words.

I see you, I missed you, I need you. On the surface those words aren't nearly as romantic as I love you. But that's the point. I love you is too general. I love you could be about anybody. But having the ability to look at someone, see the parts of them that they hate, and say that they don't need to feel that way because you're there? That's specific. That's love.

Grand declarations of love don't work in Stranger Things because they don't actually address the relationship. They don't get to the heart of it and tell you what it is about these two people that makes them compatible. And they don't address any of the underlying problems in a struggling relationship. All the I love yous in the world can't change the fact that Jonathan is lying to Nancy about Emerson. They can't bridge the huge chasm between Steve and Nancy. And they certainly can't make Mike and El's relationship less toxic.

[deanismysavior]

Mileven has a beautiful story and ruining them in season 5 would be a shame. Byler is so toxic,mike and will fight all the time and Mike makes Will suffer all the time. That’s why i think it’s better for will to find another crush.

Listen, I'm not here to start ship wars, really. I'm just calling it like I see it, given what we have visually been shown throughout the season and the context clues we can pick up on.

If you want to continue to ship Mileven, great, cool, fine, but on my own blog, I'm going to share my own opinion, so here it is:

It seems, at least to me, pretty undeniable at this point that the writing is on the wall for Mileven. All we've gotten from them this season is lies, miscommunication, and a lack of understanding what the other needs. There was no real reconciling after the love confession, no real resolution to all of that strain. In fact, it was confirmed to us that El still wasn't really talking to Mike. To try to put them back together at this point with the fact that Mike has definitely not changed how he views El or gained any insight into how to actually love her the way she needs and deserves, it would feel forced, and I honestly want better for them both than to continue in a relationship where they're not feeling seen by one another.

Mileven, as a relationship, used to be a cute dynamic. It was sweet and innocent, but as they've grown up, they haven't grown together pretty much at all. Their relationship is not built on honest communication, but instead just physical affection, which isn't healthy or balanced. I'm sorry to say it, but I really don't think the writers would be ruining anything that's not already broken here.

Mike and Will might fight a few times over the course of the show, but to me, none of that displays toxic behavior. They are actively expressing their feelings around one another in moments where they come to a head. Mike's really unhealthy behavior shows up whether he's fighting or not: he deflects blame, but what's different about his relationship with Will is that he almost always takes full accountability afterwards and apologizes right away. We don't really see him display this behavior with anyone else. He has consistently always had to be goaded into apologizing to others, and it either shows up half-assed (like his apology to Lucas in s1) or performative (like his attempted apology to El post-breakup). He only really ever gives a genuine and authentic apology without prompting to Will.

Mike and Will's relationship is built on mutual trust; Mike and El's is not, as we see El spying on Mike (s3) or lying to Mike (s4), and Mike gaslighting her on multiple occasions. If you want to call anything toxic, I'd say that's pretty damn close right there.

The only reason Will is suffering is because he thinks his feelings are unrequited, but Mike doesn't "make him suffer," Mike makes him feel seen.

They've already addressed that they are not bringing new characters into the show next season, and it would honestly feel cheap at this point to have built up Will being in love with Mike and building more trust with him all of season 4 to then just have Will pursue a different romantic partner. If they wanted Will with someone else, they should have introduced someone else for him, but they didn't. They explicitly made him in love with Mike.

At the end of the day, we all just want our characters to be happy, but I don't think that that happiness is going to come from Mileven staying together. El needs to feel empowered and understood. Mike needs to feel like he's not inferior to his partner. Will deserves to be loved the way that he gives love to others. Byler endgame is just the way that I see all of them getting satisfying and happy endings for themselves.

But seriously, do whatever you want. Think whatever you want. Ship whatever you want. But don't come into my ask box and expect to prove me wrong about something I've thought very carefully about.