#they're lancelot and gawain's sons

[mordredpendragon]

me and oomf @queer-ragnelle are cooking rn.... ngl gingalain/galahad is kinda cute. who's with me

[pajulammas]

[Chivalrous Devotion AU] Reference sheets for the knights!

Percival's off duty design was designed by @tillytilli!

The fic can be read here!

Twitter | Bluesky

More info under the cut!

Gawain:

From all the current Knights of the Round Table, 52-year-old Gawain has been by King Arthur's side the longest. In his loyalty to the king he's second only to Sir Lancelot. He is as stubborn as he is kind. He protects maidens as well as the poor and unfortunate, and he is a good friend to young knights. Gawain and Lancelot are very close. They have save each other's lives several times, and an unbreakable bond has formed between them. They always look out for each other, and they're unstoppable when fighting side by side. Lancelot trusts him so much that he was chosen first as one of Galahad's three godparents. Touched by this gesture, Gawain takes great pride in being Sir Galahad's godfather, and has grown quite fond of the young lad. However, King Arthur's sudden return has changed Lancelot's behavior. Gawain can't help but worry about his dear friend. Lancelot spends less time with his fellow knights, and instead spends every waking moment with the king. Gawain isn't sure how to feel. How will this affect their close friendship?

Percival:

At the young age of 14, Percival approached King Arthur and begged to be knighted. As knights were exclusively men and women usually only got to be knights' ladies, Percival had disguised herself as a boy to be able to reach her biggest dream: becoming a Knight of the Round Table. Arthur decided to give her a chance and let Sir Gawain take her under his wing, with Lancelot often accompanying them as well. Both of them were very impressed by Percival's skills despite her young age, and it didn't take long until she was knighted. Percival kept her gender a secret for a long time, but later in her twenties other knights found out about it. Percival was worried she wouldn't be allowed to be a knight anymore. While Gawain and Lancelot were surprised that the little lad they had been guiding was a girl instead, they were the first to defend her – they knew her skills the best. To their relief, Arthur noted that only a fool would banish a knight as good as Percival, and he is not a fool. Feeling forever in debt to the king for sparing her, Percival quickly became one of the most loyal knights, right after Lancelot and Gawain. While she may seem stoic at first, she's friendly towards other knights. When Lancelot eventually became a father, he asked Percival to be a godmother to his son Galahad. Percival agreed, wanting to be a mentor to the young boy in the way Gawain and Lancelot had been to her. She's very fond of him, and is very gentle and lenient towards him as opposed to his father's more strict approach to raising a child. While Percival has no need to hide her gender anymore, she still enjoys dressing in men's clothes and filling a role that is considered masculine. While she enjoys fighting, she's also very fond of rescuing damsels in distress. And whenever the Lady of the Lake needs the help of a knight, Percival is usually the first one to take on those missions – She's almost as loyal to Nimue as she is to Arthur.

Lamorak:

Sir Lamorak is known for his strength, speed, and fiery temper. He is competitive and rebellious, and sometimes it's difficult to tell if he's loyal to the king or not. However, he is appreciated for his charismatic personality and his habit of challenging other knights and helping them better themselves through the competitions he initiates. He and Sir Lancelot don't always see eye to eye, especially when their big egos clash often. Still, Lamorak has often helped Lancelot, who does trust him despite the hawk's rebellious attitude. He has even saved Lancelot a couple of times, so he was chosen to be Galahad's third godparent. Lamorak disagrees with Lancelot's strict upbringing. While Percival tries a more gentle approach to raising the humble Galahad, Lamorak often teaches him mischief and how to be more rebellious, much to Lancelot's chagrin.

[gingersnaptaff]

Most chill to least - Welsh mythology and Arthurian edition. Inspired by a convo @gwalch-mei and I had last night. Seriously I was severely sleep deprived so yeah.

0. Culhwch. He just exists in his own story like I can't say much else. Sorry, mate.

1. Manawydan / Brân (they're brothers but like Manawydan is legit usurped by a guy who kills his nephew and just completely fucks off to Dyfed to live in peace with his horse goddess wife and her rash son. Brân, before he gets his head cut off, is super chill but also nearly gets the whole of the Britons wiped out. (Long story)

2. Rhiannon. Unproblematic. Never done anything wrong in her LIFE.

3. Palomides. (I know he has beef with Tristan but like SAME.)

4. Honestly, Gwalchmai is super chill.

5. Aranrhod. Wants to be left alone by her stupid idiotic brothers. Or smash Gwydion's head in. Either really.

6. Branwen. Chill, yes, but I do also headcanon that she wanted to kill her half-brother as well as her husband and raze Ireland to the ground for all she endured.

7. Peredur / Percival. More Peredur because he is the most chillest and unfazed lad ever but still.

8. Galahad. Just... the vibe gives is super chill war criminal in a way I cannot explain.

9. Arthur. Except for the time in Welsh myth where he just casually kills a dude for necking one of his mistresses. Or y'know the May Day massacre.

10. Gwenhwyfar. (Guinevere is also chill but she would hunt those who wronged her down for sport if necessary. Gwenhwyfar, in contrast, would maim if needed. Seems largely content with the fact her husband is in love with his boat. Also just... yeah.)

11. Bedwyr. Puts up with Arthur's crap so it necessitates he would Have To Be Chill.

12 / 13. Lancelot and Gawain. They're together because their shenanigans are unmatched.

14/15. Lludd and Llefelys. They near killed each other because of some magical imps they have NO CHILL. Tbf they also immediately made up but like ugyftci

16. Dylan Ail Don, my beloved. He is the god of the waves. (Also, Llŷr too because as god of the sea, he would go off if he was not imprisoned somewhere.)

17. Kay. A lil more hot-headed in certain interpretations. Would, I think, also smack the shit out of Arthur if pressed. (Kay is also here for me because he is a cantankerous bastard but, like, wouldn't u be if u had to deal with half the shit he did.)

18. Fuckin Mordred man endjsjdjx CHILL MY DUDE PLS.

19. Arawn and Pwyll. Just the entirety of branch one of the Mabinogionmakes me think they just are both chill and terribly not.

20/21 Gaheris and Gareth are also a package deal. I know gawain and lance are quite high up the list whereas the rest of the Orkney aren't but like it's a big fat lie. They're just better at hiding it.

22/23. Gwydion and Gilfaethwy

24/25 Blodeuwedd and Lleu. They need couples therapy and QUICKLY

26/27. Owain and Morfudd (they are grandkids of arawn so u THINK THEY CHILL?))

28. Gwyn ap Nudd (no chill. Cut out a man's heart and then made the man's son eat it. Get some therapy, Gwyn, plîs.)

29. Bors and Hector ngl

27. Tor and Lamorak. Just. I mean.

28. Efnisien. oh God oh fuck oh boi

29. Pryderi, in all honesty. Like for having a mum who is legit super chill (apart from when she chews Pwyll and Manawydan out) he is remarkably rash.

30. Fuckin GERAINT

31. Agravaine. Man is just... he just... well, y'know.

32. Cerridwen. She chased Taliesin down and I bet she was fuming the entire time. Literally ate him and gave birth to him.

33. Enid. She is not chill and honestly I know she seems like she is but I bet she wanted to kill geraint cuz I would. Let her fly off the handle holy shit.

34. Morgan. I think she is allowed to be as unchill as she can and wishes to be.

35. Iseult / Esyllt. Nothing more than vibes honestly but still.

36. Olwen. Again nothing but vibes but she is a giant's daughter and like cyvyvuvh

[queer-ragnelle]

Hi there! I'm curious if you have read and have an opinion on the John Steinbeck retelling. I like his writing overall, and he seems to be a pretty solid Arthurian fanboy based on his other works, though I don't see it mentioned by folks too often. Wondering if it's just Malory that's modernized (and now a little dated), or interesting on its own?

I don't know if the ask game about my favorites which mentioned John Steinbeck triggered this ask or if this is a coincidence, but yes, highly recommend.

The first couple chapters definitely follow Malory more closely than the latter ones, but trust me when I say they're all excellent and only get better and better. Some of my favorite Arthurian quotes of all time come from Steinbeck, such this passage of Lancelot and Kay:

I quote this on the regular. It's the metric by which I measure all other Kays. Yes, even Cherith Baldry's and Phyllis Ann Karr's.

Steinbeck has my favorite Morgan and Ewain, as mother and son. It makes me insane. He's just a little guy who loves his mommy... Gawain is hilarious and this is one of the only retellings which maintains his sun super powers. There's a part where Lancelot is captured by the Four Queens and the story turns straight horror from there. Lancelot and Morgan debating the philosophy of knighthood and what responsibility subjects have to the crown while he's chained up and oughghghghghghg!!!!!!!!!! Highly recommend reading it as well as Steinbeck's letters to his editor at the back. He sounds just like us. RIP Steinbeck you would've loved Arthuriana Tumblr.

10/10 no notes and a link to the book if you've haven't got it already.

[caer-gai]

for ask game: 💛🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿💏

(SORRY FOR SO MANY THEYRE ALL SO GOOD.)

No such thing as too many! Thanks for the ask <3

💛 hmm so the secret is I like them all lol. We'll go with Kay and Arthur tho since they're one of my faves. There's just something in that level devotion - that Arthur draws the sword from the stone FOR Kay, that Kay gives up his future and dreams FOR Arthur. It's so juicy! In a world of blood feuds and blood based power structures these two are just out there loving each other 💕

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 Okay we all know my Fave is Gareth but seriously I love them all!! I will say I have a preference for the middle three? Gawain and Mordred are fine but they just aren't always my favorite. Gaheris has been on my mind a ton lately=)

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿 Tor. I just loooove him he's got like a million younger siblings and he's just a guy. Ultimate shade to Pellinore by being knighted as son of Aries. He just seems very chill and like he would give good hugs

💏 Lancelot/Kay tho it's rapidly becoming less crack and more ship lol they've got that fire and water they're mirrors it's just good shippy fun and THERE WAS ONLY ONE BED!!!

Ty again for the ask beans <3

(arthuriana ask game)

[gellavonhamster]

reading the post-vulgate, part 1 (the merlin continuation)

"The eldest was called Gawain, the second Gaheriet, the third Agravain, and the fourth Guerrehet" no fucking way they're in a different order again. When will it end

if Merlin knows everything that will happen, why does he go on about how he won't tell Arthur who the knight destined to destroy the kingdom is because he doesn't want to kill a child? A lot more children are going to die because this bitch is refusing to be specific

finally Yvain is Morgan's son again, this was Bothering me

Mordred hit his head as an infant so hard that the scar remained for all his life. This is potential for his brothers making jokes in the vein of "and that's why he is like that" later

in this version, the father of Sagremor the Unruly is also called the Unruly, making it their surname, I guess, which is funny, even though at a later point in Chapter 59 the narrator changes his mind and says that it was Kay who gave Sagremor this nickname

big fan of the fact that Mordred and Sagremor are raised together - there's something cute about a doomed-by-the-narrative goth and a reckless fun guy being childhood friends. And then one of them kills the other :)))

oh, the May babies are rescued in this one! Nice

brief glimpses of some fairy drama as the lady who was girded with the sword that Balin could remove "owed allegiance to the lady called the Lady of the Isle of Avalon" and the one that wanted her killed for killing her father was the one that helped Arthur take Excalibur from the hand in the lake

"In this place will meet in battle the two most faithful lovers of their time" sounds like Lancelot and Tristan will be each other's lovers and the battle in question will be their meet-cute

"For [King Lot] is the one in my land in whom I would have trusted most in great need, and for whom I would have done most" buddy, you slept with his wife.

Gawain is eleven years old when he swears to kill Pellinor for killing his father! And the adults at the funeral praise him for such noble intentions! God!!!

yesss this version supports my headcanon that Yvain's animal-befriending powers are a result of Morgan experimenting with various magic while she was pregnant with him

seriously, would everything that eventually happens had ever happened if Merlin wasn't walking around telling people "you will kill him, and you will kill him, and one of these two boys you're raising will kill the other", thus making everyone think it's inevitable?

you know what would've made reading this easier and more enjoyable? If I cared about Balin

according to this one, there should be 150 Knights of the Round Table

I like that Guinevere is being referred to as "valiant"

"for no adventure that may happen, unless mortal peril is to come of it, may a knight who is sitting at table stir before he has eaten" is a good custom, more contemporary jobs should follow it

Tor's mom is great (loved it when she rebuked Merlin and everyone laughed) and I can't wait for Gawain to kill Pellinor

Kay being described as "a good enough knight, but not as good as the others" lmao

my brain refuses to perceive young Bademagu. This is a middle-aged man with (at least?) two adult children

“Now come forward and see a king’s daughter wield a sword” is one hell of a line

yelling @ the maiden/mother/crone ladies making fun of Gawain being short

I imagine Gaheris here speaking in a very patient voice that simultaneously verges on hysterics because he's so fucking exasperated

I thought this text might change my opinion on Gaheris for the better, but then the matricide part came, with "But it was his opinion that the lady should be blamed and humiliated" and "Then he put his hand on his sword and wished to kill his mother, but he would leave the knight, because he seemed too handsome and valiant, and he was disarmed", and nope, still hate that guy

like what the fuck is WRONG with you!!!

oh I am seething right now

"for they were tired, although they had not yet done anything" meeee

[derekscorner]

Fated Rantings: Airgetlám

It's been a while, no? Welcome to my 11th (or was it 12th?) march into the Fate series. Albeit it delayed by covid, I finally saw the second of the two Camelot movies.

I made a small post after watching the first movie but I didn't make my usual long post for it since it was one part of two and because I had little to say.

In fact, some of what I said in that post apply to both films. Such as how the pacing feels a bit rushed, some characters change quickly, and some events are moved around or removed.

However, I can't call these faults with the movies since they're adaptions of the FGO mobile game and do not let the "mobile game" moniker fool you, FGO has novel volumes of text.

Some of it's arcs are even written by the original novel writer Nasu. He may be even more involved than that but my development knowledge on FGO isn't as broad as other series.

All that you need to know is that there was no way to compress that full Singularity into a movie just as there's no way to compress FGO into a full anime.

The one FGO anime that does exist just covers one singularity in of itself. (Babylonia Front) That is how each entry is.

So while I won't fault the movies for such things I do still miss certain aspects the mobile text had. Such as the lengths to convince Ozymandias, the hilarious fact that Hassan had beheaded him before the story started, Sherlock Holmes making an appearance, etc.

Instead I'd rather focus on how the movies made story moments full highlights. Such as Arash's sacrifice, it was damn near beautiful. Then you have any scene with Da Vinci in them. There's a fun troll energy to everything she does and I liked seeing it animated.

The glow up of Nitocris also caught me off guard. Her sprite and art in FGO is "eh" but she's downright adorable in these movies...and more powerful than the game gave me an impression of.

I am also glad I got to see at least some of the uneasy tension between Lancelot and Mash. Mash, being possessed by Galahad, Lancelot's son, does not give him any slack. You only see bits of it in the movie but each scene reminded me of the sheer disapproval Galahad has for Lancelot in the game.

For as badass as Lancelot is in legend, for all his power as a spirit, he can't deal with his son and it's amazing.

I also haven't forgotten other characters such as the Hassan's, the mountain people or even our leads Mash and Fujimaru but I will admit I have little to say about them.

The mountain people are shown little for the novel to movie compression reasons I already covered and the Hassan of the Arm and Serenity are good characters but I do not know what add about them.

I do like their characters thanks to the mobile games context but what you see is also what you get. They are great assassin's and the movie gives them great moments.

It would've been hard for them to compete with the original "Old man of the Mountain" anyway. Hassan, the real one, is legitimately intimidating and I looked forward to every scene he was in.

The way he taunts Gawain with the truth just moments after rendering his powerful holy sword useless. The way he just appears or vanishes, Hassan truly is death personified and you see even more of that ambiance in the game. Even a primordial god (tiamat) comes to fear him.

In turn, Mashu and Fujimaru are more or less "just there". Mash gets more interaction than Fujimaru but she does not take spotlight. The most significant of her time is in relation to Sir Galahad who had possessed her when FGO started.

Even then Galahad does not physically appear. He'll talk through Mash toward Lancelot but most of the relation is the other Knights realizing (usually in shock) that he is there thanks to Mash's shield.

You wonder why since Galahad doesn't appear in many movies/shows based on Arthurian legend but the short of it is Galahad's talent.

The Fate Galahad reflects his IRL myth, he was the perfect knight. He was nearly uncontested in swordplay, loyalty, and overall skill. He was the only knight to successfully get the Holy Grail, the real one.

In other words, even if just in spirit, Galahad's presence is to be feared. Him opposing knights is also a clear reminder to them that they're in the wrong because they know Galahad's moral compass is flawless.

Fujimaru felt the most like he was "just there" to me but I expected it in some form since he's just one of the two gender options for the FGO protagonist. A person you're supposed to name and see the PoV of in the game.

I see lots complain about how perfect or "overly good" he can be animated and while I can understand someone finding that annoying I also do not know what they expected. Fujimaru is a stand-in, they took the safe route with him for these films.

Granted, I know some of those complaints are levied at the Babylonia anime which is a bit more fair since it was a full anime production. It's also hard to not feel the flatness of him when you see his opposite, the female option in FGO dubbed "Gudako", being downright chaotic and funny in several Fate productions.

Her appearance in Carnival Phantasm is comedy skit gold and whoever wears her mascot attire in Japan is known for being a chaotic lil shit. I kid you not, look up videos.

And yes, I know that "Fujimaru" refers to both as well as that the male version is often called "Gudao". My point is that our mobile game PoV insert isn't too fleshed out a character nor do they have odd quirks to identify with.

I think this is fine because the two Camelot films aren't about Mash or Fujimaru. No, the true star of these films is Bedivere.

Knights of the Lion, Knight of the Round

I don't even know what to say about this man to get myself started. He, like most of the round table, is a tragic soul. More so in the Singularity than he is in other versions of history.

The movie didn't mention it but the sole reason this singularity existed, the catalyst for history altering, was Bedivere. Lion King Arthur is a result of Bedivere's actions, not the Mage King or the grail.

This movie also reminds me of the thing that pulled me into Fate to begin with, it's odd but loyal use of Arthurian legend. You may see female Arthur and laugh but do understand that King Arthur and his knights are more faithfully portrayed in Fate than they are most modern western media.

Bedivere is no exception. Everything from his personality to his fake arm are a nod to it. I'm not sure how true it is in Fate's history but the earliest versions of our history portray Bedivere as missing a hand (or arm) and while handsome he was not among Athur's most well known or even skilled knights.

He, however, was the most loyal. Galahad excelled in all areas but most knights matched (if not surpassed him) in one and for Bedivere that was loyalty.

That loyalty is shown in every version of Arthur's myth with his death. Bedivere was the one at his side when he died and he was the one that thrice approached the lake to return Excalibur.

It is also here where this version of Bedivere failed, in the final moment he was not loyal.

He could not accept Arthur's death and did not return the sword as instructed. That single act altered history and doomed it because Arthur was not by her tree when Bedivere returned.

He knew that Excalibur made her ageless & immortal but he didn't know that her holy spear Rhongomyniad did the same thing. By denying her Arthur's destined death she also held onto the spear and became a wandering spirit.

You see, the thing about gods in Fate is that many were originally something else before human faith and worship elevated them into a god. What Bedivere had no way of knowing is that centuries of wandering with a holy spear would eventually turn Arthur into a god or "divine spirit".

And this is more tragic than you can fathom because gods in Fate do not comprehend humanity. They are affected by it but they do not think on the same level and what they deem rational a person will not.

The great sin Bedivere committed here was rob King Arthur of her human heart. Something that her subjects already doubted that she had.

A good deal of Bedivere's guilt is see in the two movies as he realizes what exactly he has done.

He already felt guilt before the movies started and he was already warned by Merlin that the end of his journey would be rough but he didn't realize the extent of those words.

He, now ageless due to Excalibur, spent 1500yrs looking for Arthur hoping to apologize. A truly grueling punishment within the Fate series because souls, like bodies, degrade.

Your "essence" will go back to "the root" when you die but a soul can degrade overtime if left clinging to the mortal plane. For many, this results in their mind breaking and going mad.

Even the gods only thrive as long as the civilization that believes in them does. Nothing is eternal and that is the lesson Bedivere had to learn in the movies.

That's why I say that he is the star of this story. Over two films he has to learn that everything ends and that endings have meaning. Something doesn't just vanish when it's over.

He could not accept that Camelot was over or that Arthur was meant to be over.

Idolism

For many reading this you probably ponder "why?" but the movie also answers there albeit it in spurts. The best window into his loyalty and guilt is seen in how he reacts to the other knights.

Many of them look down on Bedivere even if they also praise his loyalty to the king to the point that him standing against the Lion King shocks them.

Even then, they see Bedivere as beneath them. Mordred especially chides Bedivere harshly for weakness. But what's telling is his words and replies to them, especially Mordred.

Bedivere looks down upon himself. Even after 1500yrs he does not understand why Arthur made him a knight when he's essentially just a normal person.

He was not blessed by faeries, he did not have a holy sword or other magical weapons...in Fate. Irl he supposedly had a magic spear but Fate seems to have forgone that.

In Bedivere's mind he's outclassed by the Knights of the Round in every possible aspect. Even his loyalty, the thing that the other knights were say he's best known for, is lacking in his eyes.

That does not mean Bedivere is a depressed or self loathing individual either...well originally. He's very harsh on himself in the movies for what he's caused but there's no indication he was that way originally.

He was truly at a loss as to why Arthur made him a knight and fully believed himself inadequate for the role but worked his hardest anyway.

This eventually put him in the pitfall that nearly everyone fell into, they idolized Arthur. All of the knights in the movie have flaws in their logic due to their idolized views and it's reflected in their words and oath to the Lion King.

Mordred & Agravain are possibly the biggest victims of this mindset but they're a topic for another day. What is unique here is that Bedivere wanted to see Arthur's true smile or see her drop the ideal king act.

This was not for any grand or selfish reasons Bedivere just wished for his king to be happy in a sense. Ironically, he too only ever saw the perfect king and could not let them go.

Even at the end of the movie I wonder if he ever truly understood Arthur. Because when I saw the film, the flashbacks, I didn't just see the tragedy of Bedivere's quilt and choice but I saw what Arthur saw.

Personally, I think that Artoria valued the normalcy of Bedivere. He truly was not blessed by faeries, heaven, or by magical blades. He was a guy that tried his best and he saw things the way a normal person would.

I can't say to what extent of course but I do think she saw true value in what he saw as shortcomings with himself.

Either way, these movies are truly beautiful and what makes them so isn't just the animation or OST but the tragedy that is Bedivere.

Other Knights and Conclusions

As said earlier, Mordred is a topic for another day and I've already talked about Lancelot in my Fate Zero post. In fact, the Lancelot here seems either loyal in spite of what happened to Guinevere or because of it.

Had the other knights not referenced his betrayal I'd have assumed he was summoned lacking those memories.

And I haven't read the 'Garden of Avalon' novel to truly know about the whole round table. Let alone Tristan who is infamous for the line about “The king does not understand the hearts of men.” which is misinterpreted.

Not in the sense that it's mistranslated but in the sense that how people took his words both in-story and out were not his intented feelings.

And I know next to nothing about Gawain in Fate other than he, like many, was a child of Morgan. Much of the chaos in Camelot was either direct or indirect thanks to Morgan's relationship to her children.

Agravain is a fascinating case study due to his nature. He famously hates women despite his king being a woman and it's thanks to his relation to his mother Morgan.

A trait he shares with Mordred oddly enough. Both have a complex relationship to Arthur based solely on how their mother warped them.

You can also see Agravain's dynamic with Lancelot in the movies. There's a disdain there and Lancelot is quick to suspect him despite being a betrayer. This is presumably due to Agravain exposing Lancelot's affair in life.

It is also due to people misreading Agravain's intent. He often appeals to Arthur's kingly or inhuman side and many assumed he was trying to run a shadow kingdom but Agravain was just trying to help his ideal king the best way he knew how.

He, to the disbelief of many, is actually very loyal to the king and country. His actions and feelings are just complex due to his hatred of Morgan and women compounded with his ideal king being a woman herself.

One day if I manage to read the novel I may come back to give Agravain a proper post since he fascinates me.

For now though I think I'll stop and focus on the Mordred post while it's fresh in my mind.

I can't really think of anything else in-depth to add. These movies are amazing, especially if you view it as Bedivere's story more so than an adaption of Fujimaru's.

The animation is godly and the scene of Bedivere returning Arthur's sword and her heart/memories with it is beautiful. The music is beautiful.

The OST for that scene is 'walk by' btw. Go give it a listen, bye now~

=============================

For my other experiences with Fate go here: https://derekscorner.tumblr.com/tagged/fated-rantings

[rjalker]

And thither came to him Lot’s wife of Orkney, in manner of a messenger, but she was sent thither to espy the court of king Arthur; and she came richly beseen with her four sons, Gawaine, Gaheris, Agravaine, and Gareth, with many other knights and ladies, and she was a passing fair lady, wherefore the king cast great love unto her, and so was Mordred born, and she was his sister, on the mother side Igraine. So there she rested her a month, and at the last departed. Then the king dreamed a marvellous dream whereof he was sore adread. But all this time king Arthur knew not that king Lot’s wife was his sister.

so let me get this straight, it's not okay for Lancelot in Guinevere to be in love, but it's perfectly fine for Arthur to impregnate someone else's wife?

And this isn't even Morgana, this is Margawse.

Both of them are mentioned as existing in the same sentence earlier when it's being explained to us who they were married off to so I know they're different characters.

I am confused though because it doesn't get very specific. I can't tell if they're all Arthur's older sisters or if they're his older half sisters.

Because Uber murdered this lady's husband and then married her and then it tells us about all their kids before Arthur and they were all daughters and talks about them getting married off but like it doesn't specify where these it grains kids with her first husband who's now dead or are they uthers kids.

How young do these people get married off. How long were these two married before Arthur was born. How long did Merlin have to wait for his ~give me your firstborn son~ thing to pan out.

Obviously he doesn't know she's his sister but does she know he's her brother? Because every pop culture thing that references this whole thing is Morgana specifically casting spells on him. And this isn't even Morgana and no enchantments are mentioned and what in the fuck is going on.

I have so many questions and none of them are going to get answered.

Also like five paragraphs before this we get mention of another random lady who has a kid with Arthur just randomly:

So, in the mean while, there came a damsel which was an earl’s daughter, and his name was Sanam, and her name was Lionors, a passing fair damsel, and so she came thither for to do homage, as other lords did after the great battle. And king Arthur set his love greatly upon her, and so did she upon him, and she bare a child and his name was Borre, that was after a good knight, and of the Table Round.

[luanna801]

Oh gosh, I have so many thoughts about this!

I think Agravain plays a really interesting role in the Orkney brothers, in that he's the only one who seems to have genuinely clicked and bonded with Mordred, and the only one who ends up supporting Mordred's cause when the others side with Arthur.

Gaheris and Gareth both seem to look up to Gawain and follow in his footsteps (in the versions where Gawain is portrayed as noble and worthy of emulation, which is my preference), at least until Gaheris' random foray into matricide. Agravain is the next-oldest after Gawain, but neither of them seem to look up to him. In some versions like Vulgate, his dynamic with Gaheris is downright antagonistic. I think Agravain resents Gawain's authority as the oldest and is annoyed by how the younger two seem to just unquestioningly accept it and idolize him, while Agravain gets none of that.

Then Mordred shows up. In Mallory, this doesn't happen until Mordred is fourteen, so Agravain is presumably in his twenties. And for the first time, Agravain has a brother who fits his mold and not Gawain's, a brother that he meshes with. In the Vulgate Prose Lancelot, young Mordred is Agravain's squire (just like Gaheris is Gawain's in sources like Mallory), and that parallel alone is revealing. But we repeatedly see them paired up and later plotting together throughout the sources, like there's a bond between them that neither of them has with the other brothers.

Now, in the versions where they're played as two-dimensional villains that basically boils down to "They bonded over being evil", but I think there's room to add a lot of nuance there. Mordred is often portrayed as not starting off evil (again, see early Vulgate), and we get hints of that with Agravain too. One of his earliest chronological appearances is in Chretien's Story of the Grail, where he comes across as a bit hot-headed, but a protective and loyal brother to Gawain.

So I think you can definitely go the route that Mordred and Agravain weren't initially evil, but they bonded over being a bit different in personality from their brothers, maybe a bit more cynical in how they see the world. As someone who never idolized Arthur the way the three Gs do, once Mordred finds out the truth about his past, it's Agravain who would be the most inclined to listen and get angry on his behalf rather than automatically taking Arthur's side. While (to my knowledge) we're never explicitly shown a scene where that happens, we can read between the lines and assume something like it must have happened, since Agravain is later shown supporting Mordred's attempted coup.

And I honestly think Agravain has a solid argument to make that it's his loyalty that's exactly where it should be. That their first loyalty should have been to their brother and not their uncle. That Mordred deserves to get revenge on the man who (in several versions) tried to murder him as a baby, or at least took him from his family and sent him off to the middle of nowhere. That the crown is Mordred's by right as Arthur's son, and Agravain is only helping him get the justice Arthur denied him.

You may agree or disagree with all of those arguments, but I think they're ones which carry a lot of weight, and I think it's interesting that Agravain is the only one whose decision apparently came down on that side. I think there's endless potential to dig more into those complicated sibling dynamics, and I'd love to see a version where some of these arguments were explicitly played out onscreen rather than just being subtext.

Here's a genuine, good-faith question for Agravain fans: what stories of his do you like? Are there specific aspects of him you enjoy, or is it more about protectiveness over him getting blamed for catching someone else cheating?

[nonbinarylowkey]

thinking about... thinking about all of the characters in hnoc having the same sort of dreams arthur describes in pure of heart/blood and whiskey, with the myth versions of themselves that aren't them (but really are versions them)

and im thinking about all the deviations from the myths that hnoc has as deliberate choices made by the characters to fight against the Narrative they can feel controlling them (they can never escape the Narrative)

arthur knows the Narrative says fatherhood is something to be forced on him, that he'll hurt his son to protect himself, thus leading to his own destruction—so he makes fatherhood an active choice, makes the choice to keep his child away only because it's safer than by his side, and sends for them to rejoin him when he's created a safe space for them to be together (the Narrative says this journey arthur is sending mordred on with motorcycles through dust to bring him closer will take him away as surely as a ship on open water)

gawain hates because the Narrative dictates that someone he loves will take his family from him (the Narrative says nature itself will take his mother, and the very hatred he tried to use against the Narrative will take mordred)

mordred feels that the Narrative is pointing him towards destruction so he makes the active choice to dedicate himself to peace (the Narrative says his peace is the only reason so many people were in the path of gawain's hatred)

arthur, guinevere, and lancelot feel that the Narrative wants them divided, wants their division to plant the seeds of destruction so they make the active choice to love each other even in the worst circumstances (the Narrative says in the wake of their grief over losing their child, this love will become a wall that keeps out the others who need their love and blinds them to the consequences)

brian doesn't fit neatly into this because he's not part of the Narrative, not really. he's taken to the role willingly enough, but the Narrative can't control him in the way it'd like to. brian himself has too much power over the Narrative as a Mechanism so instead of, say, telling arthur to keep mordred far away, he tells arthur to keep mordred close, tells gawain his fight against the Narrative will be exactly what fulfills it, practically hands galahad the key to saving them all (the Narrative can't control brian, but it can keep the others away until it's too late and they're unable to trust him because if he had the solutions, he should have also had a warning. they can't see how brian tried to twist the Narrative for them, they can only see the way it guides them and their own struggles against it)

[libraryleopard]

top 5 bits from king arthur stories

Oh don't mind if I do! (I'm in a class on Arthurian legend and fiction this semester and also just generally really like mythology, so I have THOUGHTS.)

6. I know you said 5, but also Gawain self-flagellating himself in Sir Gawain and the Green Knight because he flinched in the moment he thought his head was about to be cut off and deciding to wear a girdle as a reminder of his own shame except then is just catches on as a fashion trend at the court in Camelot.

5. Lancelot being raised by the Lady of the Lake. This keeps being briefly mentioned in texts like The Knight of the Cart and not being elaborated on, but I would like more details on this please! (My kingdom for a Lancelot novel where he's well-meaning and passionate and a little tormented and bisexual and kind of weird because he was raised in a lake by a fairy woman.)

4. Guinevere and Lancelot's doomed and terrible and toxic romance in The Knight of the Cart and Le Morte d'Arthur that kind of ruins their lives but that they're unable to walk away from. They're so incapable of healthy communication and and in some ways quite unhappy because of their forbidden romance but way that unhappiness coexists with the passion of their relationship (like Chrétien de Troyes writing it as a kind of religious ecstasy) is actually so compelling to me.

3. Merlin being the son of a demon in texts like History of the Kings of Britain. I love throwing this fact out to people, it's honestly a great conversation starter.

2. Morgan le Fay learning necromancy at a nunnery in Le Morte d'Arthur. One-sentence mention that I need an entire novel about, hello!!!

Mordred and Arthur's confrontation at the final battle in Le Morte d'Arthur. Okay, listen, this one makes me absolutely crazy. Like, first of all, you have the fact that Mordred is introduced at the start of LMDA and then actually comes back at the end, which is surprisingly consistent for a text that is a really bizarre patching-together and translation of other Arthurian texts. Second of all, the fact that Arthur tried to kill Mordred and all other babies born on May Day because of a prophecy but Mordred survives is so utterly wild to read as a modern reader because those are not the actions of a good and noble king and kind of make me root for Mordred a bit! Third, Mordred being pierced by Arthur's spear and hauling himself further along it to wound Arthur is SO hardcore. Like, imagine hating someone–your father, your attempted murderer, your prophesied enemy–so much you are wiling to hasten your own death just to deal them a blow? So tragic and epic!

[c0rpsedemon]

Sorry to bother you, but could you recommend where to start in terms of reading Arthurian myth? I was listening to hnoc for the fiftieth time and remembering my childhood love of “kiddified” versions of the original stories and was wondering if you could help me out. Specific collections or stories? Different versions of the texts? Thanks so much.

omg i was just thinking about how it's been a while since i got this question (bc it's my favorite question)!! so first of all (and sorry if this reads as harsh) you have to get the idea out of your head that arthuriana is a mythology. arthuriana is incredibly similar to a mythology, but most arthurian stories are written novels or poems instead of recorded folklore (although some are but they're the minority), variations based on regions are more bc of individual authors deciding to fuck around and change shit, and also no one believed any of these guys were real. second of all you need to swear to me that you'll never believe any piece of modern arthuriana written in the 1950s or later (but still be careful when it comes to anything beforehand bc god knows tennyson had it out for tristan and isolde like no one before or since), and yes that includes high noon over camelot. basically what happened is in the 50s a book came out by the name of the once and future king by th wh*te, an author bigoted enough to rival lovecraft, and the thing is, this book proceeded to start the biggest wave of modern arthurian lit since the pre-raphaelites were around, and that wave is still the one that's around today. the other big (unfortunately) notable entry to the modern canon is marion zimmer bradley (who's a completely different type of horrible person but due to my reluctance to trigger tag this post i'll just leave it to google with a warning for csa)'s the mists of avalon, which is responsible for the morgan is modred's mother misconception that plagues my every waking moment as well as the girlboss arthuriana subgenre, which is recognizable by its white feminism and fetishistic obsession with some vague idea of celtic paganism with a side of an obsession with contrasting paganism to christianity (which would realistically be medieval catholicism but is consistently portrayed as identical to american protestantism) every 12 seconds.

and as for hnoc's reputability, largely due to the shit the mechs pulled with morgan le fay, the name of the final song, the pendragon polycule itself (arthur was like twice lancelot's age, formerly coworkers with his father while he was a baby, and commonly referred to him as being like a son to him (meanwhile lancelot's feelings on him ranged somewhere from neutral-dislike), and also tried to kill his wife Multiple Times Across Multiple Texts, if you want polyamory may i introduce you to the tristan and isolde tradition, sir palomydes is there and has two swords which is clearly meant to indicate his bisexuality (/j although there are Literally academic papers out there on his bisexuality)), the shit they pulled with gawaine oh my god sweetheart what did they do to you (i blame th wh*te's hatred of the scottish for why they thought that was a viable narrative choice for him but oh my god i'm still reeling), and the fact that last i checked morgan's twitter handle was a quote taken directly from wh*te's work, although he might've changed it by now, as well as other small less-glaring indications, i can safely say that not a single person who worked on it had ever read an actual medieval arthurian text. which sucks bc i like hnoc. but tl;dr don't trust any modern work to get shit right and that's including hnoc.

basic mindset-based things to prevent half the braindead takes that haunt the arthuriana tag aside, i'm going to give you actual recs now.

the byelorussian tristan is a late medieval text belonging to the tristan tradition (tristan and isolde were figures in irish folklore before arthurian writers went 'hey wouldn't it be neat if we added these two' and they've been inextricable from the world of the round table ever since. this has happened with other characters from other nearby folklore and mythology before and will happen again, but due to the fact that tristan and isolde were once their own separate entity, they get a subtradition to themselves), it's notable for not only being the last entry in the tristan canon, but for possibly being the last entry in the arthurian canon as well. honestly it's my favorite book... ever and i'm generally obsessed with it. basically it tells the full story of tristan and isolde with a few unique adventures along the way, but where it really stands out is with the characters, esp since to everyone who isn't already knee-deep into medieval blorbos certain texts can be a bit "and then tristan did this. and then tristan did this. tristan is my self insert so then everyone found him thought. and then tristan was about to do something cool but i decided this story is about sir gawaine now." so it's my go-to starter text recommendation. also it prominently features sir palomydes and i have an agenda to push. my queue tag is a quote of his from this text!

the dutch texts, or more specifically the lancelot compilation, are also a good starting place. they're mostly fairly short, not that dense and have are fairly light-hearted which make them some of the best starter texts out there! also if someone's name is in the title, don't worry, it's really about gawaine. he hijacks things a lot.

culwch and olwen is the best welsh starter text, it's about a relative of king arthur's who's cursed to only ever be able to marry this one girl, who just so happens to be the daughter of a giant with

i'd have to reccomend the lais of marie de france too bc they're fairly short and ough. chevrefoil gets me every time. lanval is one where a guy gets married to a fairy queen, and chevrefoil is a tristan and isolde story. also bisclavret isn't technically arthurian but we (med lit tumblr) love it like it is, and it invented the trope of the werewolf knight that shows up in later arthurian texts.

i highly discourage diving straight into one of the full stories of arthur's reign but if you must (at least go through chevrefoil or lancelot and the hart with the white foot first) go with the vulgate instead of le morte, it's much better written and more cohesive and you'll thank me for it. you can/should skip the history of the holy grail and also the history of merlin though. everyone does it.

and uhhh i don't want to come off like i hate modern arthuriana completely so here are my modern suggestions. first there's tennyson's lady of shallot and idylls of the king, but be sure to know that he's wrong about tristan and isolde and also some other stuff i don't remember, and then there's also william morris my beloved who likes palomydes just as much as i do. anyone who says aggravaine killed his mother is a liar btw it completely messes up his character and conflates him with gaheris and i'm saying this bc i know one of them did. also more recently there's this short story with a really long title i'm obslorsed with from an otherwise sucky anthology which is a character study of sir galehaut, who's basically lancelot's husband from the vulgate and also a bit of a medieval gay stereotype.

also there's a substack i'm obligated to plug called nightly knights which has/will have all of these + more and only the good stuff bc. well. i made it.

annnnd that's it for basic starter texts, once you've got one or two of these under your belt med lit becomes. a whole lot easier to get into. after you've read through however many from this list i'd recommend moving to chrétien de troyes (just not erece and enid or cliges bc those are Rough), or sir gawaine and the green knight, just make sure the latter isn't your first gawaine text bc it's the exception not the rule. otherwise, i'd recommend picking a favorite character and reading out from there. if you need any more help or recs for texts that are good but would be Actually Insane to recommend to a beginner (ie. if you like modred i'm Going to point you to an untranslated middle english poem which actually spends time characterizing him), recs for Really Good And Specific Academic Papers, or help finding anything, feel free to ask me or pretty much anyone on med lit tumblr bc god knows we spend to much time on this. hope this helps!!!!

[knife-dad]

Some notes on this AU:

Arthur is the son of the owner, which makes him the manager, but it's Merlin and Morgana who are really getting things done around the place. They're both competing for the same assistant manager position. It's intense.

Kay runs concessions and does the cash office. He's also the one who places orders with their suppliers. Because no one else knows how to do it

Percival is a homeschooler and this is his first Real Job. His grail quest is an elaborate Haze set up by the other knights, but he's taking it so seriously. It's going about as well as you'd expect

One day (during Christmas break) the guys from Medieval Times show up and start joking about how no one from Camelot would last a day in their jobs. Gawain takes them up on that challenge and only comes back after accidently instigating a toxic work polycule over there and getting kicked out.

Whenever they have disagreements they settle it by jousting with go-karts and golf clubs. This was Arthur's idea.

Arthur, Lancelot, and Gwen end up going through the messiest breakup of all time. Accusations get thrown. Sides get taken. It almost tanks Camelot for good

The situationship ends with Lancelot taking a job as a park ranger and Arthur going to school across the pond. Gwen is left to hold down the fort while attending bible college. Arthur tells everyone he's going to be back for the summer though! No one is sure if they should believe him or not.

I think tumblr will appreciate this one:

Arthuriana modern AU where Arthur is the manager of the best mini golf course in SoCal and his employees are his loyal knights. Had a lot of fun making this one. Enjoy!

[teamxdark]

Remembers that in the Arthurian legends, Sir Percival's father was King Pellinore.

Oh heck Sir Percival is a princess just like Blaze.

Remembers that Sir Lancelot and Sir Gawain are also the sons of kings.

Oh heck they're all royalty...

[queer-ragnelle]

📚, 😤 and 🗡️ for the ask game please!

📚A Retelling/Modern Work You Like

Too many to list them all! But obviously Excalibur (1981) is up there as one of my favorite films, also love Merlin and the Sword (1985) and recently discovered New Adventures of a Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court (1988). Starz Camelot (2011) is my favorite show and The Adventures of Sir Lancelot (1956-1957) as a close second. Books wise there's everything by Cherith Baldry but especially Exiled From Camelot, same with Phyllis Ann Karr but especially Idylls of the Queen. I love Gwen Rowley's books Lancelot and Gawain. John Steinbeck's The Acts of King Arthur and His Noble Knights for that amazing Morgan and Ewain mother and son chaos. All of Howard Pyle's books I literally can't pick one they're all good: The Story of King Arthur and His Knights, The Story of the Champions of the Round Table, The Story of Sir Launcelot and His Companions, The Story of The Grail and The Passing of Arthur. Many of my faves are great here; Ragnelle of course, Gawaine and Ewaine, Percival and Lamorack, Elaine and Launcelot with a surprisingly charming Galahad. Speaking of whom, his best book is Blessed Bastard by Ruth Lehmann. No contest. It'll ruin your life /pos.

😤Your Most Specific Nitpick About Your Fave

Ragnelle doesn't die at the end and Gawain isn't a rapist. Period. The worst offender of this was a short story in an anthology which had both. She deserves better than that.

🗡️Who Are You Betting On In This Month's Tournament?

The Fair Unknown! Young blood here to unhorse these moldy oldies!

[roundtabletexts]

Lancelot: I just don't understand it.

Guinevere: They're young and in love! What's not to understand?

Lancelot: I thought he'd have higher standards! He could be dating someone with power. Like Gawain!

Guinevere: First of all, there's nothing wrong with Mordred.

Guinevere: Secondly, Gawain is twice his age.

Lancelot: So?

Guinevere: Are you really trying to say you wouldn't mind your son dating a pagan?

Lancelot: Maybe you're right.

Guinevere: Of course I am. We both know you'd have beat him to the punch if it weren't for religious differences.

Lancelot: Gawain is so beautiful. Why does he have to be a heathen?!

Guinevere: Promise me you'll never take the mission field.